Danny Willis - Finding Lasting Joy
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. The following is a faith conversation with Reverend Danny Willis, a Cumberland Presbyterian minister in Owensboro, Kentucky. Danny has a provocative journey, A journey of overcoming addiction, broken relationship, and multiple health issues that almost caused his death. Instead of losing faith, Danny found a deep and profound faith in Jesus Christ that has led him into ministry. I met with Danny in a transitional period in his life as he just finished a pastorate and is discovering what is next in his journey. His wife, Jessica, joined in on our conversation. Married for 9 years, their journeys intertwine in a beautiful way. Here is the faith journey of Danny Willis.
T.J.:Danny, we met a few years ago and I got bits and pieces of your faith journey, and it's it's a treat to be able to kind of swing back around and, get the whole story and your whole journey. But I remember you telling me vaguely that you had, a medical scare, and and I don't remember what it was. But we can start there in our conversation or start in another place if you wanted to lead up to that.
Danny:No. That'd be fine. We could start there. Try to make it as short as possible.
T.J.:Take your time. You you've got my you've got my attention.
Danny:So My whole life, I weighed about £330. And then about the last 4 or 5 years, I've blown up to £580 is when what I laid when I went into the hospital.
T.J.:And and for those who are listening, just for perspective, you're you're probably a quarter of that now.
Danny:Yeah. I'm 6 foot 4, and I'm £200. Okay.
T.J.:Alright.
Danny:But, yeah, I was £580, and, I was an alcoholic as well. And my whole life, you know, I'm just I I stayed away from God a lot. So there's a lot of things I've done in my life I shouldn't have done, but I was, diagnosed with it being fatty liver because of my my weight, but alcoholism also. You know? But,
T.J.:How early did you get into, alcohol?
Danny:Oh.
Jessica:Early twenties.
Danny:Yeah. But I started a lot a lot more probably in my about 20 years old. From 18 on, I was drinking. Mhmm. But most of the time was I was I drank too much beer, but that's why I got so big.
Danny:But, I was diagnosed with NASH, nonalcoholic liver cirrhosis, and I bounced around a few hospitals here. And I just couldn't be put on the transplant list because of my weight. And then I wound up, at, Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota at the end, and they told me if I would sign for to get a, lap band or not lap band. Sleep. Stomach sleeve surgery that they would put me on the transplant list.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Danny:So I I think I lived there to total of maybe 4 months in a transplant center. It was where they had a lot of people there. There were hospice and major illnesses. We just all lived in a house together there, but I don't really remember the last time when I went in. But, when I went in for the long haul there at the end, I was just losing my mind all all along the way.
Danny:But by the time I went in for the long haul, I was in the hospital for a year. Mhmm. I was in and out of coma, and it was rough. But the thing is is once, they called my family and said they were gonna unplug me in the 2 hours away. So I I was past the point of being able to get a transplant.
T.J.:Well, let me interrupt you let me interrupt you for a minute. Let's go back a little bit. So you you're in a, you're you're in a home and you're on a waiting list. And so
Danny:do you need to be waiting list for transplant.
T.J.:You need to be in that house on a waiting list for a quick turnover. Is that correct?
Danny:You had to be close to the hospital. Yeah.
T.J.:Okay. Could you hold a job at that time? Or you I mean, are you literally chained to well, maybe metaphoric?
Danny:Chained to the hospital. Okay. But I was beyond being able to work. When I finally when I realized there was something wrong with me, I was at work taking something off of shelf and just fell face first into the shelf. And then everybody around me could tell I wasn't feeling good anymore, so they told me I couldn't come back until I figured out what was wrong and overcame back.
Danny:I was diagnosed, with stage 4 liver cirrhosis.
Jessica:How old were you?
Danny:I was 30 7 years old. They told me I had 6 months to live. Fast forward again back to where I went into the hospital for a long time. I was there for a year.
T.J.:So And what How come you were in the hospital for 12 months?
Danny:Because about everything that happened, I was there, you know, like, in a coma state for a while just waiting for the transplant.
Jessica:It's waiting. You have to have a certain, donor to be able to get the liver, and so he had to wait for somebody who had had I mean, he was £500 and 6 foot 4. So It
Danny:had to be somewhere.
Jessica:Somebody that had that, you know, a liver that would be able to suffice with the body habitus that he had. So And blood type. And blood type. So they had to weigh. And on top of that, he was told he had to lose so much weight before his surgeries as well.
Jessica:So while he's already feeling horrible with his liver problem, he's also having to eat apples all day long.
Danny:I drank water water.
Jessica:Trying to get down to a certain weight.
Danny:Yeah.
Jessica:And he, actually, he didn't really make it because like he said, after when he was to that point
Danny:Mhmm.
Jessica:He had 2 hours, and they were telling his wife at the time that they needed to come in. He was blessed with a liver.
Danny:Yeah. They called 30 minutes after they called him and said we're gonna unplug him in 2 hours. They found the liver that matched me. And, fortunately, there was no one else on the list nowhere that that was right candidate. So they've said, we're gonna try.
T.J.:So while you're waiting, your health is declining, which led led you going from living in a home kind of in a waiting period to where you actually needed medical care around the clock?
Danny:Yeah. Basically, in hospice.
T.J.:Okay. And how old are you at this time?
Danny:37.
T.J.:So so you're a young man.
Danny:Yeah. And I turned 38 in the hospital. So but, yeah, they they when they did get that lever in and they said they'd go ahead and give me a shot, they done it. And wasn't nothing turning around for me. 3 or 4 days later, they didn't understand what was going on.
Danny:So they done test or whatever, and they found out that I had, mucormycosis, which is basically fun fungus growing in your body. I guess that I got that close to, you know, being gone. And they didn't even wanna operate on me because if you get mic my you from my closest period, you've got, like, 30% chance to live. And then that what if it spreads throughout your body, nobody had ever lived from it. And it was in multiple parts of my body, but they finally talked to me and said he'd been through so much, and he's got the then the liver was a great match.
Danny:Mhmm. And, they they said he's done through so much. Give it a shot. You know? Mhmm.
Danny:So they did it, and, like, I wound up losing half of my or 3 quarters of my right kidney, half of my right lung, a big portion of the top of my right shoulder, a big chunk out of the, top of my left thigh. Is that all of it?
Jessica:I think so.
Danny:Yeah. And this is right after liver transplant and stomach sleeve surgery.
Jessica:So went back and had to open them up like an autopsy.
Danny:And take all
Jessica:stuff out. And I'm the
Danny:person that has ever lived from it.
T.J.:Yeah. You're a walking miracle.
Danny:Yeah. I guess. Yeah. I got 1 minute chance, man. That's why I'm here today.
Danny:Amen.
T.J.:Where's your head space? I mean, you have a lot of time to reflect and to think as you're feeling sick, as your health is declining. I imagine that you could go into some pretty dark places. But what what was your experience? Yeah.
T.J.:Go ahead.
Danny:I mean yeah. I mean, I I did have, like, hallucinations and dreams or whatever. They were so vivid that sometimes I gotta try to realize were they fake or were they real. You know? But Mhmm.
Danny:Before, I was great. I mean, I felt great. I was always in a good mood. I was con con now 21 years old, but he's the only one who believed it because of the circumstances. But, yeah, yeah, he gave me a miracle.
T.J.:Well, let's talk about your faith, Danny. As a child, what were what was an early experience with God? Did you grow up in the church? Did you have did you have an encounter outside of kind of the traditional parameters of of faith?
Danny:I didn't grow up in what you would consider a Christian home. We didn't go to church, and we didn't read the Bible, pray openly, or anything like that. But I spent I had a brother that had down syndrome I mentioned to you earlier. Mhmm. And, he took a lot of my parents' time.
Danny:So I spent a lot of the weekends and and summers and just whenever I could. I was with my great grandparents, and they would take me to the Methodist Church in I like Kentucky. And I was baptized there probably 8, 9 years old. I don't even remember, but by the time I got 16 years old and got a job and started driving, I didn't go and spend as much time with mama and papa as what what I used to, and I just went away from the church altogether, basically. And I guess nobody ever really told me they were proud of me in my life.
Danny:And as soon as I got out of school, I got a good job at a local plant. And within 4 years, I was a supervisor of the plant. You know, I patted myself on my own back, and I'm like, nothing's gonna hold me down. I can do everything I wanna do on my own. I don't need nobody, and that included God in my mind.
Danny:You know? So that's the way I lived my life for a lot of years. That's what led to the alcoholism and the drug use and all of that was just I'm trying to fill a hole in my life where God should have been. You know? It's temporary joy you can find at the end of a bottle, but it'll kill you, and you're not gonna find true joy.
Danny:They're not lasting joy. You know?
T.J.:And this is in this is in retrospect. So during that time though, were you able to articulate, hey, this is why I'm drinking, this is why I'm experimenting with drugs?
Danny:Oh, never. I was just living my life and having fun. Yeah. No. I never thought of that.
Danny:You know?
T.J.:You were doing what you were doing what Danny wanted to do? You had cash out of pocket and a good career and
Danny:what you jobs. You know? Mhmm. And then, you know, I lost one of my good jobs because I was too good to the people there. You know?
Danny:I tried to resolve issues instead of firing people, and it got me in trouble more than once until the point I lost a job over there. I they even told me, you you we didn't hire you to be a minister. We hired you to be a Oh, wow. So,
T.J.:let let's go a little deeper in this. You really weren't faith connected, and yet here you have employers saying we didn't hire you to be a minister.
Danny:I've always had a helpful heart. Like, I think that God put something in me, but I didn't know where it came from. You know? Mhmm. They would I would counsel people.
Danny:Yeah. I would never pray with people and such, but I always wanted to try to help people with their problems. You know? I always had that mindset, And I find a lot of it because some of the stuff I had been through, and I was like, I don't wanna wind up there. You know?
Danny:Mhmm. I had a very rough first marriage. You know? She we were both alcoholics and such and did all this stuff, and she was more with the other drug, and she just wouldn't give it up. After I got out of the hospital, I found out she would she'd done found boyfriends while I was in the hospital sick.
Danny:She thought I was gonna convinced I was gonna die, I guess. But and then I came home when I tried to, you know, prepare things, but she continued with that type of behavior until the point she just told me to go home. She found another guy. So that was a a long, rough marriage. So
T.J.:Yeah. Drugs, alcohol, and maintaining relationships. That's a real hard thing to do for anybody.
Danny:And I was gone for work most of the time. The jobs I had were good jobs, but I literally worked 80, 90 hours a week sometimes.
T.J.:You were pushing that body pretty hard, Danny.
Danny:Oh, I was. I tell people I I went from February 12th, my birthday, until, Christmas one year without a day off. So, yeah, work was my god kinda then, I guess.
T.J.:In your journey, where did you find yourself reconnecting with your faith? So you were you go to your great grandparents and you attended worship, but when when were you reconnected with your faith? When did God reenter the
Danny:picture? My son, which is another hole, he got he got some kind of disease. He never really got diagnosed properly, but he was in and out of a children's hospital for 3 years straight. Mhmm. We thought we was gonna put him in everything.
T.J.:Is this after your
Danny:Yeah. I got
T.J.:sick. Before? Okay.
Danny:Right before. Yeah. But, Yeah. We didn't know if he's gonna make it one night. They came in and told me.
Danny:He said, we don't even know if he's gonna make it through the night, and it was just me and him here there that night. And I just kinda sit slept in the chair and was there with him when he woke up the next morning. And he woke up. He sat up in the bed. Like, he felt better, a lot better that morning.
Danny:And he looked at me and said, dad, when I get better, I wanna go to church. I want you to take me because you need to go too. I mean, in that situation, and he said that it it went into my heart. You know? I was like, oh, okay.
Danny:Alright. And then I, got back to work after he got a little better. It was probably a couple of weeks later. Eddie Miller, which is a member of the Owensboro Cumberland Presbyterian Church, asked me if I would come to a chicken dinner. I was having barbecue chicken at their church, I guess, on Wednesday night or something.
T.J.:Yeah. That's a hard thing to pass up.
Danny:Alright. Yeah. That's £500. You offered me some chicken. I'm coming, but but my son had just said that to me, and I was like, you know what?
Danny:My son said he wanted to go to church. I'll be there. And I've never left. I've I've I've started at that church, and I wasn't a Christian really yet. I've seen it in other people, and I used to sit there in the pew and just pray to God and beg.
Danny:They're like, I wanna have what they got. Mhmm. I wanna believe. I see the faith that they have. I see the joy they find from it, but I I don't have that.
Danny:It's like I need to see it or something. You know? And I prayed that, you know, the whole time I would go there, and there'd be nights I'd be up all night drinking still. And I get up early on Sunday and go. I had a guy pull me to the side once.
Danny:Dumbass smelling like alcohol, but I was trying still. You know? And somebody sent me on an Emmaus walk during that time. Mhmm. I don't know if you know what that is or anybody listening to mine, but I think that's a Just
T.J.:brief for those who don't know, briefly describe the Emmaus walk.
Jessica:Can't.
Danny:Yeah. You can't really say a whole lot about it. It's a 4 day thing you go to, and, you go there just to experience God. Mhmm. You would be you'd be with our 30 other women or 30 other men when you go, and it's just a a walk through the life of Christ.
Danny:Kinda like the the walk to Emmaus. They were there with Jesus the whole time and didn't realize it, and I think that's what Emmaus walk is. You'll be there the whole time with Jesus. And, generally, you'll realize it by the time that the 4 days is up.
T.J.:Tell me more about how that transformed, how that changed you. That part you can tell me about.
Danny:The big part I took away from it was my changed my priorities in life. Mhmm. The way that I was working, and I wanted to spend more time trying to be a dad to my kids. And that was the big thing for me. And I knew I needed to slow down with the drinking, and I did.
Danny:I told people at the Emmaus Walk the first time the first 4 days I went in a row without drinking in 30 years was at my Emmaus Walk.
T.J.:Wow. Yeah. That's an accomplishment.
Danny:Yeah. And, you know, I think really when it came down to me stopping is when I just started feeling bad from it. And I started slowing down, and then it was probably 6 months after I slowing down is when I was diagnosed. And I worked with a guy named Scott Brown at the counter at this electrical place that I worked at, and he had had a brain tumor pretty recently to that, probably a year before. And he he come in all the time happy, and he'd do his job and he was happy.
Danny:And one day, I just finally looked at him. I said, what is in your mind that you're going through what you're going through? And and you seem like it ain't bothering me. He's like, Jesus has my back, brother. He said, I'm in no matter what with this.
Danny:I either go see God, or I could stay back here a little longer if whenever he makes a choice of. He was a true Christian man. Still is. But, yeah, things like that, he was a big help as well. You know?
Danny:But, yeah, whenever I got sick, I looked to God, and I was like, look. I've been trying this thing out. Here's the shot. You know? I need your help.
Danny:And after that, you know, with all that in my mind that I had that only 2 months left to live, I'd I'd pray myself to sleep some nights. Kept my Bible post and started reading it and really trying to find it and then you know? So it was really my illness going through all of that that really locked it in for me.
Jessica:Well, the top line kind of helped as well. It's really weird how it all came together because when Cage was sick, then you got invited to church, then you did the Emmaus walk. This is when his heart health started deteriorating. He had deteriorating really worse and worse until he that's when he and then he found out he had a problem. And at that point, he was going to the Owensboro Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Jessica:And if it wasn't for some of the financial aid that that church was able to offer him and his family at that time, he wouldn't have been able to get to Mayo Clinic. You know? He wouldn't his family wouldn't have been able to eat. He was having, you know, like, his floors and his trailer house are falling apart.
Danny:Yeah. We had a water heater. What has
Jessica:to was at that point. And to see that that with that timeline, how all of that right before he went to Mayo Clinic with God finally, you know, showing himself at those times is what was able to, I think, to get Danny through, being at the hospital and being through all that. Because finally, he saw it. He saw what he was. Was there for him.
Danny:The first thing I ever run into my life, I couldn't fix by myself.
T.J.:That's pretty scary, isn't it?
Danny:Yeah. I was like, I need you now. I said, if you can get me the other side of this, I'll use the whole rest of my life doing whatever you lead me to. I won't say no to nothing. And I'm sitting here today.
T.J.:So, really, as you're kind of putting your life back together and examining your priorities and asking questions, you know, how does God kind of work in the world and in my life and in my family's life is when your health starts deteriorating. Yeah. That's a prime opportunity for a relationship with God to really be strengthened or fall apart. It's kind of a fragile, fragile
Danny:time. It was. Yeah. I think that was my chance. It's like, either you got you know what I mean?
Danny:I had that, the Paul got struck by a lightning moment. You know?
T.J.:Alright. So, after you go through multiple health scares for your son, and then of course for yourself, and you're on this side of it. You're regaining your strength and clearing up your head. How does that lead into kind of where you are today? Where does your calling in ministry, how does all that play in your in your journey?
Danny:Well, you know, they told me I might be brain damaged. So it took me a long time to get my head straight, and I think that's all my ex at the time was waiting for is once she's saying that was alright to get kicked out. She kicked me out. So I actually lived in a guy's car for a little while, here at Owensboro because I was paying all of their bills. And while I was in Minnesota, I had met one time, I went up there just for some health stuff afterwards.
Danny:And I got up Sunday morning and just googled nearest church, the Mayo Clinic, and found 1 and got a cab and went and met these people. Well, while I was living in the car, I was texting them, and they was like, you just need to get away for a while. You should come up here, and you can stay with us, and you can be close to Mayo and help get just your health straight.
T.J.:And and folk folks from the church that you found are the
Danny:In Minnesota. Okay. So I moved up there and stayed in their basement until I got financially well enough to get me an apartment up there. And I was going back and forth to Mayo into the gym, getting myself back to where I needed to be. And that's not that Jessica.
Jessica:I was gonna well, he met me. Yeah.
Danny:This is where
Jessica:This is the weird part because we both went to the church Owensboro Church, and that had been my church for a long time. And when he was trying to get himself healthy again Mhmm. He he came into the church
Danny:Yeah.
Jessica:Super skinny, couldn't barely keep his pants on. Absolutely. Belt that was so tight, like, his pants were looped about a foot away from his waist. And I just remember sitting there because I was in there I always have my donuts and coffee in the morning with everybody. And he came in and pastor shook his hand and so I offered him a seat.
Jessica:This is before, you know, anything, and I just offered him a seat. And I was married at the time to my first husband, and I was actually pregnant with my daughter and sat him down and was just chatting with him, you know, and enjoying his company. And I was like, well, hey. Like, nobody else said anything to him. It was just me.
Jessica:And I was like, you should come to my Sunday school. You know? So it was just a very random moment there that we both remember, and then I didn't see him again for gosh. How long was it?
Danny:Probably probably.
Jessica:It was probably a year. Yeah. And he had messaged me when he was up in Mayo because, like, right after he talked to me at the church, he went to Mayo or, I mean, to Minnesota. And, so we hadn't talked. And then, like, a year later, I get a message on Facebook.
Jessica:How are you doing? I'm healthy and up in Minnesota. What's going on? I'm like
Danny:And just to make the story clear there, her husband did the same thing to her that my wife did to me.
Jessica:Yeah. He left me.
Danny:Yeah. And, she when we started talking, Adeline was 4 months old.
Jessica:She was
Danny:Adeline is my daughter.
Jessica:6 or 7 months old. She just started crawling.
Danny:Yeah.
Jessica:Yeah. So so we were both divorced.
Danny:Yeah. And And I was in Minnesota when she was in Kentucky.
Jessica:So make that clear, y'all. We were Yeah.
T.J.:Well, Danny, you're in Minnesota. What led you to send Jessica a Facebook message?
Jessica:That was
Danny:doctor Doctor Newton. Yeah. Doctor
Jessica:Newton was a savior for me during during my divorce. Him and his wife, Vicky, kinda took me under their wing and would help with my kids Mhmm. Whenever they needed to. So I spent a lot of time talking to them and chatting. Well, I guess there was a picture he just liked of me, so he posted it on Facebook on his Facebook.
Jessica:Yeah. And that's when Danny saw it and
Danny:I mean Oh, okay. I was like, how you doing?
Jessica:Yeah. But,
Danny:yeah, we talked on the phone for 4 months or so. Mhmm. And then, I flew back to Owensboro for a a week, and we, went out and everything for that week. And I went back to Minnesota and, yeah, it took me a couple months to gather my you know, close-up all my loose ends there because I was working at a church there as a outreach minister. So
T.J.:Oh, okay. Alright. So, let's go back a little bit. You moved to Minnesota. You're living in a car.
T.J.:And I wanted to ask
Danny:I lived in a car before I went to Minnesota.
T.J.:And living in the car before, but you can't live in a car. And then the church that you found, they allowed you to live in their basement temporarily
Danny:until you found it before. A guy, a a man and woman.
T.J.:Oh, okay. You lived in not the church basement,
Danny:but the Their house stayed at the house, and then I got me an apartment. But the church offered me a job cleaning the church. Mhmm. And I was doing that, but I one day, the pastor there, he's like, I gotta go do a couple visitations at the hospital. Won't you won't won't you come with me?
Danny:And by the time he got back, he's like, I'm making you an outreach ministry. It's like, I've never seen anybody be so outgoing and just walk up to anybody and start talking to him in my life. So he made me an outreach minister. So and I was like, well, I wanted to get ordained. You know?
Danny:Mhmm. That was a a nondenominational church. Mhmm. And, he told me he he put me under my wing, and they would ordain me there. You know?
Danny:So I thought I found my calling. You know? Mhmm. But But when me and her did start talking, I did a lot of praying. You know?
Danny:Like, what do you want me to do? And then when I was on the visit, though, me and her attended the Owensboro Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and Terry Moss is the was teaching the Sunday school, and he told me so I wish I had somebody to help me teach the Sunday school class. And I thought about that the whole time I'm back in Minnesota, you know, those 2 months I spent before I moved back. And when I moved back, I was like, let me help you do it. And that's kinda where I got my whole start toward the direction I'm at now.
Danny:You know? I started teaching the Sunday school class, and it grew and grew to the point we were having bringing extra chairs and about to have to get a different room before I actually left and started pastoring to our or filling pulpits. Alright. That's the other
Jessica:crazy part, though, is in between all that is when you came back to the church, and they all saw that I was dating him.
Danny:Oh, yeah. My own pastor pulled me to the side and threatened him. If you heard that girl, she's like my daughter now.
Jessica:I was kinda his loophole into the church, to be honest because
Danny:All everybody knew me from was my past. Yeah.
Jessica:From his past. I'm like, what is she doing? With
Danny:him. Yeah. It was
T.J.:So, Jessica, as you guys are growing closer together,
Danny:what
T.J.:do you guys text and talk about? How did that relationship kinda get nurtured and and grow?
Jessica:Gosh. That's been, like, 10 years ago. Yeah.
Danny:But I think it was because we were completely honest with one another. Mhmm. Because we wasn't face to face.
Jessica:Gone through, divorces, and we were somebody we both could talk to. He was very broken.
Danny:Yeah.
Jessica:Medically broken.
Danny:Yeah. I'm annoyed at that point in time.
Jessica:Yeah. And, I I guess I found him a little intriguing in that way too with me being in the medical profession. I always tell everybody he's my, like, medical experiment.
Danny:I don't live with her. Honestly, I'll tell you that the first conversation that we ever had where we actually talked on the phone, and I told her I said, they said that there's a chance that I might have to have a, a kidney transplant. At the time, they thought I would. And, she's like, I'll give you one. Can I give you one?
Danny:And she meant it. She literally meant it, and I'm like, this I'm gonna marry this girl to be that kind. You know? Right. Hey.
Danny:We might need to stop for a second. I need my battery's low. I'm a have to plug in, buddy.
T.J.:Okay. Alright. Do you need to when you say
Danny:need to go get a cable and plug this in.
T.J.:Alright. Absolutely. Go ahead.
Danny:I'll stay here. Pop
Jessica:it if
Danny:we had to. Yeah. Yeah. But we got the the them screens going dimmer. Okay.
Jessica:Yeah. Sorry. We're really back and forth on all of our stories. He's got such a big one. It's hard to keep the timeline in play.
T.J.:Well, yeah. But it's kind of fun because I I can I can ask, well, for my own benefit so that I can follow, But it slows Danny down a little bit too, so that he can so yeah? Because I I want to live in that moment and be empathetic to it and to to best understand Danny and you. And he Danny Danny, you're ready to jump to the next chapter. It's like, okay, that chapter is open.
Danny:Now I wanna
T.J.:go to this other chapter.
Danny:Yeah. I'm sorry. In a good way.
T.J.:In a good way. No. No.
Jessica:He was trying to make this kinda quick for you because and it there's no quickness to this. He just
Danny:That's all I was trying to do is make it minute. Give you this you know, I've told this so many times. At one point, I said it so much that she's even like, you know, you're more than just that. And she was right.
Jessica:He used to talk about his story for, like, the first 2 or 3 years we were together. And you know how it's how hard it is for somebody to be like, you don't have to keep living through that all the time. Yeah. You're gonna have a future, and you need to start living in the now rather than what happened to you way back when because that's literally all he would talk about forever. And, you know, I'm living with him.
Jessica:We're married. I hear this story all the time, and I'm like, you have got to get some new stories. I'm like but on top of it, I was not there through his sickness.
T.J.:Right.
Jessica:You know? So I the I was an outsider at that point. I was at the church praying for him while he was in the hospital because we the same church he had just started going. I tell him all the time that the first time I ever saw him was he was in in front of the doors. I put I think he was putting on Cage's coat or holding Cage's coat to come his son Cage to come, to leave, and he was, like, big old boy.
Jessica:You know? And he was big old guy, with nothing but black on. Everything was saggy and baggy. Yeah. I was I didn't really talk to him a whole lot then.
Danny:Yeah.
Jessica:But that that's where that's what I remember him like. And then I remember his kid, Cage, who I would literally turn around and go into a different room because he was so loud and boisterous, and he was too much for me. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like, yeah, I love him to death, and man, he got it. He had Jesus in him.
T.J.:So, Jessica, what what was your, reaction of that, well, relatively brief time gap of seeing Danny, as he was going through health issues and alcoholism and all kinds of stuff. And then fast forward to when he shows up in Owensboro Owensboro again, and here, he's wearing a belt that's 8 sizes too large.
Jessica:This this is the funny part. Okay? So I the whole time I was sitting there, I was like, man, I wish I could just take him and go shopping with him. I like to be able to buy him a wardrobe. He deserves this.
Jessica:You would've guessed down the road I bought his whole life. He literally came to me with a one of those duffle bags. One duffle bag. That's all he had. He had nothing else.
Jessica:Yep. Never took anything from his other life. He let them just have it. He was always giving he didn't care. He was, you know, that that was fine.
Jessica:And then that's where he came to me.
Danny:And With a duffel bag and dreams and ministry. Yeah.
Jessica:Which is where everybody was like, just what are you doing?
Danny:Yeah. What
Jessica:are you doing? Like, I always told miss because I could see more in him than what his outer appearance was. And I I always said I've I think I've been a pretty good people reader for most of my life, and, yeah, I could see the softness and the soul he had, and a lot of people couldn't see that.
Danny:Mhmm. Yeah.
Jessica:So, so while he me in the last how many years, I mean, we've met
Danny:No. No.
Jessica:I mean, the church loves him. Everybody loves him. So, you know It
Danny:was a big change from who I used to be.
Jessica:Little connection was kind it's definitely a god thing too, and it happened at a really good time for both of us because not only could I help him, he could help me. I mean, I was going through a lot too. I mean, this was a lot lot. But
Danny:Yeah. With me not being at that point, I couldn't work. I couldn't even carry a 12 pack of bottled water. You know? So she's like, you just help with Adeline, and, I gotta work all the time.
Danny:So until you get better, that's it. So I even that's when I said, you know, I wanna go to seminary or whatever, but I'm gonna wait until Adeline starts school so she don't ever have to go to day care. So I did
Jessica:that. I got my very own house husband.
Danny:Yeah. I was a house husband, and I got to take care of that baby. That's why I said, hey, Adeline's just like my baby. I'm a really choppy. Couldn't be any closer to a god given child.
Danny:No. She is a god given child. Let me take that question.
T.J.:Alright. So you're at the Owensboro church and, teaching a Sunday school class, and you were saying earlier that, it was growing. Talk more about the transition from being a Sunday school teacher into pursuing the vocation of minister.
Jessica:That's actually really hard. Yeah. I thought Because pastor Tim, like, wasn't too sure about it.
Danny:Yeah. And I get it now. I'm looking back. But yeah.
Jessica:How he was. Look. He he gave me a face.
Danny:And I came back quick.
Jessica:Give a face.
Danny:Because he
Jessica:was just like, are you I don't I don't know why anyone wants to do this. Like, he just wasn't real sure about it. But after after he had been in that, Sunday school room for so long, we kinda taught it kinda together. Yeah. That was kinda his side wing.
Jessica:I read all of the stuff. Yeah. And and, I think after he saw that that was growing and how we were able to grow a lot of the young couples there, That's when, you know, you went back. I mean, I was like, I wanna be a I was asking as a pastor all the time. You know?
Jessica:And finally, I think he was like, think you're ready.
Danny:Yeah. I I was just like, maybe I could just be the assistant pastor here. That's all I wanted. Mhmm. You know?
Danny:I I've seen that maybe I did have a gift for ministry. You know? And, he said, well, you gotta go to school. And that took me probably a year before I was like, alright. I'll go to school.
Danny:You know? And I
Jessica:wanna do that at all.
Danny:I did not do that in school.
Jessica:Y'all, he is so against college education. Yeah.
Danny:I did not wanna go.
Jessica:No joke. He was like, that just gives people a big head.
Danny:And
Jessica:I'm like, really? So is that what you're telling me? I am. My husband.
Danny:And, you know, I went into the community policy here and signed up for classes, and I was like, I don't know if this is gonna work or not. You know, I got anxiety and ADHD and everything, but I think that is what made it work for me. Yeah. Because I was so afraid of failing that I poured everything into it, and I made the dean's list my very first semester at 47 years. I'm 46 years old.
Jessica:There was another blessing that he didn't know he even had. When he was in high school, he had taken so many classes for college. He was almost done.
Danny:Yeah. Didn't even know it.
Jessica:He didn't even know it. And so he just needed, like it was a another year of
Danny:or No. I think I had a year and a half, 2 years of of a community college to get my to
Jessica:get my associate. Bunch of credits that he didn't even realize. And then by the end of his 2 years, he even made another loophole because they thought he was gonna have to take another class. Remember that? There was a
Danny:I don't know.
Jessica:They changed some they changed something in their, what do you call it? Curriculum. Curriculum to where one of his classes ended up counting. Oh, yeah. That's right.
Jessica:Yeah.
Danny:All of a
Jessica:sudden, he was just done.
Danny:I went to go take classes and get books and stuff, and they're like, you're not enrolled. And I'm like, I already enrolled. I got 2 classes to take. And by the end of that day, they was like, oh, you have 2 other credits. You're done.
Danny:So that was great when I started the BOSS program immediately. Yeah.
T.J.:Well, before we get into the program of alternate studies, Danny, has your perspective on education softened any?
Danny:Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. A lot of if anything, I think you could go to college and take something you don't even care about, and you'd learn you'd be more organized and more goal oriented. Mhmm.
Danny:I'm I've always been kind of a I wanna get it done now, or I'm not gonna do it. Mhmm. You know, even the big jobs I take on a car, I walk out there, and I'm like, I'll work all day until I'm falling apart without even eating to get something done then. So, yeah, taking long term goals, that was hard for me to accept, but I I think it helped open that up in my mind now. You know?
Jessica:Yeah. Like, way more being supportive of when the kids I mean, we got 2 older boys, and one of them is about to go and, graduate this year. And, he's getting ready to do automotive. And Yeah.
Danny:He's gonna go get a degree in automotive. Guys are excited about it. Yeah. He is
Jessica:just so stuffed that, you know, we'll have a kid in college. So
T.J.:Alright. Danny, you got a taste of ministry in Minnesota and then back in Owensboro at the Owensboro Cumberland Presbyterian Church through Sunday school and your calling and you revisited your calling, and then you revisited one more year because you weren't real sure about going back to school. Yeah. And then I interrupted you. You were about to talk about the program of alternate studies.
T.J.:Okay. Now you can run with the program of alternate studies.
Danny:I'll let Michael Kalls, by the way. I'll shout out to him. But he he was the, main guy over the past I think now he's vice president of the whole seminary or something. He he stepped up somewhere. But He
T.J.:he's a man of
Danny:many talents.
T.J.:He's a man of many talents, many jobs.
Danny:Yeah. And, when I first started the POSS program, I was like, how many quest how many classes can you take at a time? And I was like, well, we had somebody take 9 once, but he failed. I was like, but I can take 9, and they were like, yeah, if you'd wanna try. So I took 9 classes at the time all the way through.
Danny:I think I set a record getting through fast. But Alright. And I I was successful. I think I was all a straight a's, but maybe 3 b's or something all the way through. So Mhmm.
Danny:I was able to take big chunks out of it because, again, I don't like to wait for results, so I took it as quick as I could.
T.J.:So what's next, Danny, in terms of ministry and life?
Danny:You caught me at a very vulnerable time, actually. Mhmm. This past I I stayed at Mount Olivet for the past be almost 5 years in October. Mhmm. You know, when I started to go fill pulpits, I went to that church, and I fell in love with them.
Danny:And, you know, me being disabled, I can only make a very small amount of money. So, you know, I thought that part of my calling is I can go help churches that that can't pay a whole lot for a pastor. Mhmm. And I went to Mount Olive and fell in love with them. And, again, I stayed there almost 5 years now, but Easter was my last Sunday there.
Danny:We got to do a baptism and everything. And we and we had a the whole we did the whole holy week celebration. It was hard to leave. I I mean, I really do love those guys with all of my heart. You know?
Danny:I spent time with them and their families and grown to know all of them. And it's hard to leave. It really is. I even I even had second thoughts about it because it's hard to leave people, but I, you know, I keep telling myself in the back of my head that's that's gonna be part of ministry. You know?
Danny:And I know it's time. God was telling me deep in my heart and heart too that there's something else for me, and I don't know what it is. So, yeah, you caught me at a vulnerable time with that. I'm I'm fixing to jump in my car and drive cross country by myself. I need to get away sometimes, but to do some prayer and to camping and mostly some stuff.
T.J.:Share more of what it's like to be in this stage of your life and your stage of your your faith and your ministry because you're in a season of change, and yet the near future is unknown. Well, it's always unknown. But in terms of your vocation, your calling, and what that may look like, you it's typically when when we're in ministry or really any vocation, when you step away from the vocation, you have something else lined up.
Danny:Yeah. I don't. But in
T.J.:this case, you don't. So
Danny:No. I'm waiting. I'm I'm trying to just find what God wants for me. I'm actually I tell people all the time, one of my pieces of advice is a goldfish will never find out in the ocean unless he jumps out the boat. Okay.
Danny:So that's what I've done. You know? I kinda take my own advice. If I say it, if you preach it, you gotta live it. You know?
Danny:So Right. I I like I'm I've been working as a chaplain at the hospital my wife works at. Mhmm. I do enjoy that. But, again, you know, when God tells you, you gotta go, you gotta go.
Danny:And I don't know what it is yet. Man, I I don't wanna say the wrong way, but I've been disappointed that what you know, churches are just getting empty nowadays. There's gotta be another way. You know? And I I I know there's been a lot of people trying to figure it out.
Danny:Like, what do we do now? And and that's where I'm at. What do we do now? Yeah. Again, you know, the church is in inside the 4 walls, and it it needs to go out and start being charged again.
Danny:Mhmm. And I think a lot of that is churches that become protective. We almost have to be nowadays. You know? I think the most rebellious thing you can do in life now is be a Christian.
Danny:So I think we've become inwardly focused because of that. We've gone into protect mode, and we can't minister like that. You know?
T.J.:Yeah. It's difficult to minister when you're in survival mode, protection mode. Yeah. And and we often are resistant to change and and we can become very defensive. It's hard to share the gospel when you're distracted and when you're defensive.
Danny:Yes. And when we get too worried about the rules and regulations, how much different are we from the Pharisees? You know what I mean? Jesus hung out with sinners. So, yeah, I don't know what the next step is for me.
Danny:I don't know what it looks like.
T.J.:Well, besides, feeling vulnerable, what other emotions would you attach to that list?
Danny:Anxious? Well, I hate it. Yeah. I'm very anxious. You know, I don't yep.
Danny:Not not being attached by the paycheck, and that that maybe that's something to do with it. You know? God wants me to do something. Maybe another way of reaching people. Like I said, I still wanna probably wind up pastoring the church, but I gotta make sure that whatever he wants me to do lines up with that.
Danny:You know? Because I do enjoy it. It's very hard to walk away from being a a pastor. I enjoy it. I love you know?
Danny:Like I've said before, I've always loved helping people. It's just a continuation of that. I just like to help people with the problems, you know, when God's the way the only way to really fix a problem.
T.J.:But even feeling vulnerable and anxious, there's a stronger call to to to step away from what is familiar, what you have known for the past 5 years. Talk more about that. Talk about what that that it is, that thing that is driving you to step away from the comfortable, If you can, maybe we'll have to swing back around and revisit. Maybe there isn't language.
Danny:I beg like, what I you're not gonna go catch a deer if you don't don't go deer hunting. You know what I mean? Mhmm. If you just stay in one place, maybe you're not gonna find what it is, and I don't know what it is. You know?
Danny:And I probably go pull some pulpits and stuff like that. Maybe that's what I wanted to do. I have no idea. You know? For the longest time, I thought I knew what what my calling was, and it's not.
Danny:So what is it? You know?
T.J.:They must be freeing at the same time to be able to step into the unknown.
Danny:But you know what God did for me and my illness? Maybe makes me a little more brave than the average. You know? If he had my back through that, then I ain't worried about stopping away from the church for a little bit till I find where he needs me to go next, you know.
T.J.:Maybe you have literally faced death on more than one occasion. So what what may be fearful or anxious driven for some, maybe it didn't register with you in the same way.
Jessica:Yeah. It doesn't.
Danny:My anxiety is
Jessica:It doesn't. This is where that all goes on me.
Danny:Yeah. Yeah. She's the one.
Jessica:This is where we make great team because he doesn't think about all that stuff. And, thankfully, we've been blessed to have a structure in our life. Mhmm. I'm kind of the structure. Yeah.
Danny:Oh, definitely. She keeps trying to know that.
Jessica:Allows him to still be able to do the things he gets to do and which is great because that's where he needs to be. He needs to be able to have that what's what's the word again?
Danny:Freedom.
Jessica:I guess freedom. Yeah. Yeah. The freedom to try new things, and he's not scared to try. So
T.J.:Yeah. There there's something wrong in any of our relationships if we are not urged to seek and discover, to be creative, to dream, that can be stifling for the the the development of the relationship, relationship with God or spouse or a loved one, a child, whoever that may be.
Danny:Yeah. Yeah. She's been a big part of me. I mean, I've never gotten here without her. She doesn't like, keeps me in order.
Danny:I'm not good with structure. Like, I'm going on this trip in next week maybe, and I've not made any plans. I just I'll fly by the shirt. So, I mean, she's the one that kinda, yeah, she grounds me, and I love her.
T.J.:Well, Danny, you have experienced and seen a lot of things. What advice do you have for somebody who may be facing, a tremendous health scare that is going to change the way that they currently live, or maybe a loved one. What helped you walk through those life and death experiences, and and what advice do you have?
Danny:Mine was just faith. Strong faith. I just knew he wasn't gonna let me die. You know, I don't know if that was part of my calling at the time that if he was getting me through that, I would do what I'm doing now or whatever. But, yeah, he I just had faith that I wasn't gonna die.
Danny:Like I said, the only person that didn't believe it was my son or that did believe me. It was my son. So it was a bad circumstance to be in, and he pulled me through it. So, I mean but I believed he would. Mhmm.
Danny:Truly believed that he would, and he did. And I don't like to give that advice. I kinda I I I stumbled on that just a bit because I did believe there are some things that people that have faith and still, you know, succumb to what illness they have.
T.J.:Sure. Absolutely. But I was wondering what helped you through.
Danny:Yeah. It was faith and my kids. I knew the life they would have if I didn't make it.
T.J.:Let's talk about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church that the 3 of us are a part
Danny:of. Yes.
T.J.:And, in this time of transition, what is your hope for the church now and in the future? You alluded earlier about, looking and and living outside of the walls of the church, but put some meat to that. What what could that look like? What does that mean?
Danny:More outreach. I think we definitely need to outreach more. Mhmm. I mean, they look we got a couple churches here in town that are just growing and growing and growing. I met the pastor recently at a an Emmaus walk, and I have tattoos.
Danny:But this man had full sleeve tattoos. All of them are religious and stuff. Didn't look like he'd be a pastor at all, but this is his church, you know, and they got they're they're connected to one of the drug and alcohol places here. Mhmm. And and that's the way I found my faith.
Danny:You know? That's who I was, and then it would the only thing strong enough strong enough the only thing that ever made me wanna change that was Jesus. And I know in my heart, I would not have changed if it wasn't from Jesus, and I think that's that's what stands true with a whole lot of those people. So, I mean, when you go on out and you're getting people that are broken and you fix their life and they come to Jesus, well, you're gonna have a hop in church. They praise Jesus in that church, and they're busting out at the seams.
Danny:You know? I've seen the pictures of the men's breakfast, and it's overflowing. And it's because of outreach. They're going out and finding centers, and when they find Jesus, they're loyal to where they found it. So, yeah, they're just looking for Jesus.
Danny:It doesn't matter what the rules and regulations and you know what I mean? And I think sometimes, again, as we went into defense mode that we forget who we was maybe at one time. You know, I know there's people that's been Christian your whole life. She has. Mhmm.
Danny:You know, maybe they don't know what it's like to not have Christ, but when you haven't had and you find him, man, you're on fire. I love so that's my best thing to see is when somebody finds Jesus.
T.J.:Mhmm. It it it can be contagious for sure.
Danny:Oh my god. That's why I still go back and this one this last Emmaus walk was my first time on the the minister team. And there was a guy there that I knew well, and he he balled throughout the whole thing. And me and him's had breakfast since, and it's just amazing to see somebody find Jesus and change their whole life. You know?
Danny:That's all I wanna do. I mean, you can't do that in 4 walls. So the church has to get we gotta get better at outreach or something somehow, and I don't know what it looks like. You know? I know everybody's looking for outreach that works, but you gotta outreach to broken people.
T.J.:Jessica, you've you've been a long time member at Owensboro Church. What are your hopes for the church now and in the future?
Jessica:Well, yeah, it's been my home for 15 years, and going for longer than most of them, which is kinda weird because I feel like I'm not that old
Danny:yet.
Jessica:I've always, I mean, I helped with the youth and I got to see the youth grow, but it seems like when when the youth grows, they leave. So they've got to figure out a way to keep their babies in that church is really what I see. And I just I don't want to see. I don't like seeing the churches fall apart, and it kinda feels like anymore. It's a hard way to keep them together, all the everybody because everybody has their own opinions.
Jessica:And it takes a really a strong, person to try to keep all those opinions together. And, I mean, who who is it gonna be? I don't know. I've always I tell my husband all the time, that church was my family. Mhmm.
Jessica:I fought for that church. I went through my divorce with that church. I went through my new marriage with that church. I my son was 2 when we started going to that church, and now he's 17. So it's just
Danny:A lot of the people we love are gone now.
Jessica:Yeah. And, like, my my pastor will always be my pastor. And then that was pastor Tim, and he's not there anymore. So and I hate to be like, well, that he made it home for me, but he he kinda did. So it's been really hard here lately for me, actually, with the change of things going on in that church because I've always had that I call it my childlike faith because I still see religion through the eyes of how I did when I was in Sunday school.
Jessica:You know? I don't need to question my religion. I don't need to know all these answers to these questions. I just believe. Mhmm.
Jessica:And that's always how I've been. I think Danny says that's one of my what do you call it? That's my every person has a A gift. A gift. He says that's my gift is that I just always believed.
Jessica:I've just always believed. I'm never not. And he'll start asking me questions about different things, and I'm like, you gotta talk about Joan and the whale or something. Okay? I'm over here still remembering all of my little, you know, childlike.
Jessica:That's why I love teaching Sunday school to the kids because that's that's where I'm at, and I don't wanna grow. I'm sorry.
Danny:I use her. I use her. I don't
Jessica:want to learn any of these horrible thing. I want to still be happy and sunshine, flowers, and kisses. Okay? And that's I I don't
Danny:And that's what's made her so useful to me. That's
Jessica:yeah. I'm just faithful. Mhmm. I'm faithful, and and that's all I need. I don't need people to question or give me answers to my questions.
Jessica:You're not gonna give me the answer. It's up there, and I'll find it one day. So
T.J.:So the 2 of you balance, you know, in terms of grappling with theological questions to simple faith and blending.
Jessica:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't simple one.
Danny:Well, I tell other people I don't consider myself to be a theologian. I don't. And that's why I asked her these questions. I think that makes me a better pastor in a way or a better preacher is because I don't wanna say things that people don't understand. And when and when she's talking about me asking her these questions, I just wanna find out what the average Christian knows.
T.J.:Mhmm. Okay.
Jessica:And then he can bounce it off of me because he's like, oh, you don't know that? Well, we're gonna learn about that today.
T.J.:Okay. I get it. So the 2 of you really do complement each other. So while you're doing your sermon preparation or Sunday school class devotion, whatever it may be, you share with Jessica some elements to see is there a different way to articulate the same concept or phrase or thought or definition. Yes.
T.J.:That's wonderful. The 2 of you
Danny:have so to speak.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Danny:Yeah. If I say something and she looks at me crooked, I'm like, well, I can't use that in this armor. You know?
Jessica:Are you gonna have to explain?
Danny:I gotta do it different. Yeah. So the biggest compliment I can ever get is when people tell me, I understand what you're saying. I understand your service. I listen to you because I understand.
Danny:You make sense to me. That to me, that is the not that I use big words, not because I know how to speak Greek or Hebrew. It's because I can express the word of God in a way that you understand it.
Jessica:Well, and then you all have to remember that he didn't grow up in the church. Then Sometimes he'll say something to me, and I'll spring up one of those, songs that we used to know. You know?
Danny:And I don't know the songs. Yeah. So I've stuck stuff in my sermon about y'all heard the old song, and I didn't know it too.
Jessica:And he's like, you do know that story. Yeah.
Danny:Yeah. Yeah. I thought that on her one day. I said, do you know about the guys climbing the pole to see Jesus? And she's I started singing a song, and I was like, oh, okay.
T.J.:Okay. My next question is for the 2 of you. We'll start with Danny. Danny, where do you go to get rejuvenated, renewed, filled with encouragement that helps your faith.
Danny:Well, I like working the maze walks. I like doing stuff outside of your church and getting enter get into some interdenominational things. You can always learn. You don't, you know, you don't have to change your whole value to learn from somebody. But I know this might strike you as weird.
Danny:I think it does some people, but my worship you know, when you're a pastor and you plan for it all week, church and worship is a little different for you than you normal. You know? To me, I gotta find a way of worship outside the church, and I love music. I love music. You know?
Danny:And I get a lot of my worship through music, and I got a stereo I built in my car that sounds like a concert. And I could tell I'll tell anybody. You come over and just sit in this car and let me play the right song, and you'll cry. So, yeah, I'll get in there and drive around. Some days I don't have anything to do, and I get in my car and just drive around listening to really loud Christian music.
Jessica:Yeah. I cry too when I get in my car. Okay.
Danny:Different reason. But I've always been in the car audio stuff, and and music is such a way to worship for me. I'll just put the 2 together. Mhmm. And I I've worshiped in my car a lot, man.
Danny:I read my scriptures every day. I still I love the, upper room. I read that every day. Mhmm. I'll try to watch, you know, Christian programming when I can.
Danny:But, yeah, I think I gotta get a lot of my worship from music.
T.J.:Okay. Jessica, how about you?
Jessica:Me?
Danny:Yeah.
Jessica:Honestly, and it might be weird, probably is. I I seem to be a very outspoken person and talk to everybody and super bubbly and happy, and and I am. I wasn't always that way, which I think is why where I get my rejuvenating from is when I'm by myself at the house, nobody's here. Like, seriously. I'll I'm like, oh, honey.
Jessica:You wanted to go to Bowling Green and spend 2 days there with Lyle and work in the office? Go right ahead. I'm not even far. And then yes. So I get my
Danny:So you don't get as much loan time
Jessica:as I am? By myself and
T.J.:Got it.
Jessica:Quiet.
T.J.:Well, Danny Danny, Jessica, thank you for giving me a big hunk of your day for us to talk.
Danny:I appreciate the opportunity to share with you.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to this faith journey with Danny Willis. Share Cumberland Road with your family and friends so they too can hear about god's presence in people's lives. In closing, here are some words of Henry Nowen from his book in the name of Jesus. The task of future Christian leaders is not to make a little contribution to the solution of the pains and tribulations of their time, but to identify and announce the ways in which Jesus is leading god's people out of slavery through the desert to a new land of freedom. Christian leaders have the arduous task of responding to personal struggles, family conflicts, national calamities, and the international tensions with an articulate faith in god's real presence. Thanks for listening.
