Cumberland Road

T.J.: 00:05

You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I am your host, TJ Malinoski. Today's guest is Reverend Andy Eppard, a Cumberland Presbyterian minister, a doctoral student, and a fan of Charles Spurgeon. He pastors at the Cedar Hill Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Greenville, Tennessee. Over the course of our conversation, Andy shares a shift in life where he went from being a pleasure seeker to a seeker of God and dove deep into the studying and absorbing all that he could to live a life of discipleship. In doing so, his journey led him to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and here is my conversation with Andy Eppard.

T.J.: 01:11

Andy, thank you for joining me on the podcast. I appreciate you, taking the time to be the guest and, off mic working on technical aspects so that we can have this conversation

Andy: 01:27

welcome. Thanks for asking me.

T.J.: 01:29

I appreciate it so much, for for doing that. Well, let's jump right in. I like starting conversations, talking about journeys and experiences. And, Andy, if you could, share with me a meaningful experience that you've had with god. It can be something from long ago or, something recent.

Andy: 01:56

A meaningful experience.

T.J.: 01:58

Yeah.

Andy: 02:01

Probably the most meaningful experience, was, well, my born again experience. And, I was, raised in the the United Methodist Church. And I had never I had been baptized and confirmed when I was about 12. Mhmm. But I was not born again, and I wasn't following God.

Andy: 02:25

And when I was 18 years old, the Lord brought me to a point where I started feeling guilty for my sins, which was very strange to me because, you know, I was I didn't have that sensitivity before that. You know, I didn't I wasn't guilty. Yeah. I felt fine, you know, doing things that other people did. And all of a sudden, I'm coming coming under deep conviction.

Andy: 02:50

And, anyway, I became very sick, in body. I actually had a tumor that got removed later on, but it was we didn't know what it was at the time. And it basically would, it made me very ill. And, I made it I basically made a deal with God that if he would heal me, that I would surrender my life to him. And, I woke up the next morning, and I was completely fine.

Andy: 03:15

Now that that tumor was still there, and I I would have to have surgery probably about 10 years later. But, you know, at the time though, I was completely feeling great and, I, you know, I wanna keep my promise. And so my life changed completely. So that was probably the most meaningful, time that I could think of.

T.J.: 03:33

Did you realize that the promise that you made was actually a service in ministry?

Andy: 03:40

No. I did not. No.

T.J.: 03:42

Would you would you have made a different promise if if you knew that you would be come a minister to the word and the sacraments?

Andy: 03:50

No. Absolutely not. No. And really, once the Lord called me about 2 years later, I was like 20 years old, and I was wanting to be a medical doctor. And, I I was teaching bible studies, and the thing is that, people were telling me, hey, you make a great minister.

Andy: 04:08

And I'm like, oh, no. I don't want anything to do with that. And, I mean, I had no interest whatsoever. And, but I remember when the Lord started dealing with me about it, and he started dealing with me through other people. And I also was listening to a sermon my pastor was preaching, and I felt a connection with him as a minister.

Andy: 04:28

And I felt I felt starting getting convicted again about this is like feeling the Lord is calling me to do this. And and I really wrestled with it for a couple days, because I really did not want to go into the ministry. But once I surrendered to his will, it became my passion. And I never looked back. I I mean, that's what I wanted to do, and I couldn't see myself doing anything else.

T.J.: 04:54

Yeah. I I understand. Andy, let's go back to when you were younger, around 12 years old. You had made a commitment to Christ and you were baptized. What did that mean for the young Andy?

T.J.: 05:08

Because it wasn't until later that you realized there was a difference between the verbal commitment and maybe a lifelong commitment. So what were you what were you thinking, you know, the 12 year old Andy?

Andy: 05:21

Let let me back up even further than that.

T.J.: 05:23

Alright.

Andy: 05:24

And we'll go we'll go up to that. Because probably because it's another meaningful experience. When I was about 7, my parents had built a home, and there was a church of Christ right across the street from it. And, we did not attend church. I I was interested in church because I had friends that go and they'd invite me to go with them, and I enjoyed it, but we didn't go.

Andy: 05:47

My mom is a believer, my dad was not. And, but I one the one summer, I went to their VBS. And I remember, there wasn't very many people there. There's some young teenager, teenage girls that were teaching my class. And I remember them sharing the gospel with me and I got teared up.

Andy: 06:03

And, you know, I heard the gospel and I believe the message they heard or heard, but I didn't, didn't really know what to do with it because we didn't go to church for, oh gosh, at least a few more years when my parents went through a divorce. But that led me to eventually go, attending the First United Methodist in Columbus, Indiana. And I went through confirmation class, and I feel like the Lord touched my heart then too, because I heard the gospel message all over again. But, you know, as far as what it meant to young Andy, I didn't know what to do with it. I really didn't have any direction.

Andy: 06:39

We went to Sunday school, and I went to church every Sunday. But as far as, like, daily living and stuff, I, you know, I didn't have anybody telling me really that you need to read your Bible. You need to pray every day. And I I prayed at night, but it was just more of a ritual.

T.J.: 06:55

Mhmm.

Andy: 06:55

And so, I just kinda went along with with what everybody else did. Got in trouble. I don't know. It just, it it wasn't life changing for me. It would not till I was 18.

T.J.: 07:10

Mhmm.

Andy: 07:10

Because that's the thing. When you become a true disciple of Christ, you surrender to him. It's a complete surrender of your will. And I that's not what it was for me when I was 12. It was just it was an acknowledgment that Jesus was Lord and savior, but I didn't make him the Lord of my life.

Andy: 07:27

I did not surrender to him. And it wasn't until later when I did when my life really changed. So

T.J.: 07:35

That's interesting because, you know, I haven't really thought about that in terms of the importance of discipleship and maybe even mentorship. Mhmm. We we might use different terms, but Yeah. That discipleship of, oh, your journey is really just beginning. And to have have someone else, your same age, a little bit older, or even an adult to kinda walk through and model and and allow you to practice and fail and and, show you the ways.

T.J.: 08:06

That's so important. And I I think oftentimes we overlook that regardless of the age bracket.

Andy: 08:13

Yeah. I mean, because it it wasn't really talked about in church. And it wasn't it was a big city church, and it was it was somewhat liberal. And so there wasn't that strong discipleship and that I just didn't get that there. And my you know, because of that, my parents also, they were, you know, they were Christians, but they weren't really strong in their faith.

Andy: 08:36

And, and that's the difference between the way I raised my kids. Like my daughter, I mean, you know, when she was just a kid, I'd say, you know, have you have you said your prayers today? Have you read your bible?

T.J.: 08:47

Yeah.

Andy: 08:48

And so, you know, she knew that she needed what she needed to do. When she went to college this year, I'm like, well, we need to find you a good church home. And she's like, oh, I'll just listen to I'll just get on Facebook and listen to you preach. I'm like, no. You you need to find a community of faith that you can become a part of while you're there.

Andy: 09:06

And so, I didn't have that. And, I think we do need somebody, whether it be a parent or, somebody in the church or some type of a mentor, whether and and everybody needs that. They really do.

T.J.: 09:20

Yeah. And and we I I don't wanna sound like that we as Christians are, utter failures because in many ways we do that. In many ways we do have partners, you know. So you see it more with maybe an adult and then in the youth or a young person if someone has made a profession of faith and you partner the 2 up.

Andy: 09:40

Or you might

T.J.: 09:41

you might see that in confirmation classes, but there's that the need for the continuation of the discipleship, I think, is is important to help help the faith grow.

Andy: 09:51

I agree.

T.J.: 09:52

I was, I was chuckling, when you were talking about your daughter, just, you know, listening to you. I there is something to be said for young adults to be able to to form their own faith community or be a part of a faith community that may not necessarily involve their parents or grandparents or or or guardians so that so that the faith can be fostered more, you know, not not to exclude your extended family, but so that it is a personal relationship and not through a parent or through a guardian.

Andy: 10:30

Yes. Yeah. And she she's a strong Christian. She, she has, friends who she studies the bible with and goes to church with. And so I'm I'm really proud of her.

T.J.: 10:43

So, Andy, what happened at the age of 18? This was a transitional moment for you.

Andy: 10:50

Well, prior to that, as I mentioned, I really just didn't have convictions. I remember one friend of mine, we were hanging out after work. We were we both worked at a pizza place, and we were we were doing some stuff that we shouldn't be doing. And he went to Assembly of God Church, and he said, hey, hey, Andy. What do you think God thinks about this?

Andy: 11:11

And I'm like, I don't think he really cares. I'm serious. I didn't think God really cared how I was living my life. You know, as long as I wasn't hurting anybody and wasn't being mean and, you know, I just had no idea. And it it just wasn't until I had that born again experience where, my life changed.

Andy: 11:32

And like I said, it was it it was just that deep conviction over my sin and then the holy spirit coming into my life. And then after that, I you know, my my ritualistic prayers in the evening changed to where I was actually seeking god. I was reading my Bible every day. I was, praying in the morning and the evening, and they were they were sincere prayers. They weren't just like mom or bless my mom, bless my dad.

Andy: 11:55

I mean, it was it was actual conversation with God, and I was, you know, interceding for others. And, you know, there was true prayers. I was basically learning how to walk spiritually for the first time in my life.

T.J.: 12:08

So it wasn't necessarily like this one pivotal lightning bolt experience, but it was a growing conviction and and the realization of the the the need for forgiveness and grace.

Andy: 12:18

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I it's a and I even see, and I can see God even though I don't believe I was born again when I'm younger, I can see God working at those different moments in my life.

Andy: 12:33

And it just, I think it all came to that complete surrender when I was 18 is when my journey really began. But before that, the Lord was working in my life, for sure.

T.J.: 12:45

Well, I would think that the process is pretty natural. You know, you're, you know, preteen to teenage, early teens, that awareness of of God through Jesus Christ. And and you just see this progression and this growth in terms of understanding and and self awareness, but also awareness of the power of the holy spirit and and God working on you. Mhmm. You know, we hear other people's faith journeys.

T.J.: 13:14

You know, they're not always sandwiched into one very brief moment in time. It it really is it really is a journey. It really is.

Andy: 13:24

It is. I, you know, I think for some people, they might have you know, they can pinpoint when they were saved. You know, they they went to an evangelistic meeting or maybe they made a profession of faith somewhere. But for others, it it is a journey. Mhmm.

Andy: 13:41

And, it's more of a process. Yeah. And so I would even I even though I can pinpoint that one time when I surrendered to God, I can see the process working way before that. And after too.

T.J.: 13:53

So when you were in your late teens and, kinda working through this growing conviction, how did that change your relationships, or did it with maybe your family? Completely been.

Andy: 14:08

Co workers? My family relationships didn't change a whole lot. I was, my parents were always worried about me because I just did steps that I shouldn't. But that, you know, so that worry was gone because I was living living for God now, and so that my relationship with them was strengthened. But as far as my friends are concerned, all my friends were were basically the party crowd.

Andy: 14:33

So, I pretty much lost all those friendships, except for a couple. Just, you know, we didn't have anything in common anymore.

T.J.: 14:43

Yeah.

Andy: 14:44

I I didn't like to party. Instead, I wanted to go to church and read my Bible and pray, and I was, you know, following God. But I built you know, after that, I started building new relationships, new met some new Christian friends and even people who I'd gone to school with before, but we didn't we had previously didn't hang out because we didn't have anything, in common. Now we started hanging out and, I started I remember the it was probably, oh, when I was about 19 or 20, I started teaching a bible study on my friend's house on Sunday nights. And we got to where we had probably at least 10 young people there, and we were studying the Bible and praying and, you know, so I had all those new relationships that were built.

T.J.: 15:35

Did you experience a a a sense of loss or a time of loneliness? Because as you're making these life changes based upon your faith, some of the things that you no longer, you know, had an interest to you, was it was it hard to give some of those up? Was it hard to kind of, walk away from from colleagues, from friends, from coworkers, and and maybe even being treated differently by them. Was that was that a difficult time?

Andy: 16:07

Not really. I would say it was, you know, even some of those relationships, they just kinda went a different direction, but I didn't really feel any loss, because I I did have an understanding of what happened. So I wasn't oblivious to it. And, like I said, I was making new friends, and the lord was filling my life with with with joy, the joy of the lord. And so instead of finding instead of being a pleasure seeker, I would had become a God seeker, and I was finding fulfillment in him and fulfillment in the things of God.

Andy: 16:44

Yeah. Even going to church on Sunday morning, I know that they, it was a large church. And after the service, they had this time of fellowship with, old coffee and donuts and and not a whole lot of young people were there, but I enjoyed this hanging out and talking to other Christians, and I don't know. This things changed. My interest changed.

T.J.: 17:08

For somebody who may be listening, if you could, Andy, kinda walk through, you know, you you were putting aside some things that would be considered pleasurable and they were being replaced with god things. Yes. Let let's live here for a moment. What what does that mean? What what did that entail for you?

T.J.: 17:31

And and specifically, what were those god filling things that drew you away from from maybe the sense of guilt and conviction, but also some of the pleasure seeking that wasn't healthy for you physically and spiritually.

Andy: 17:49

Alright. I've I found real joy in studying the scriptures and in praying, going to church. And, I watched a lot of a lot of, oh, television programs that were Christian based. Mhmm. A lot of evangelists and stuff I started listening to, which later on I realized that, you know, some of these guys that were preaching, they were teaching some things that were not right.

Andy: 18:20

But that that was a that was just something I had to learn, but I was I was hungry for it. Yeah. So And you were being something.

T.J.: 18:27

You were being fed at that time.

Andy: 18:29

Yes. Absolutely. I became interested in prophecy, and, I never heard about Jesus Christ coming back. I mean, I I just knew the basics, all the way up to probably about 20 years old. I'm like, I finally heard, oh, Jesus is coming back.

Andy: 18:46

Really? I had no clue. I mean, I'm just so uneducated in in the Christian doctrine. So I I really I really started getting into theology. And, matter of fact, I felt like I mean, I was an avid reader, and I felt like I was probably, oh, I probably knew I I'd read so much.

Andy: 19:09

I probably knew a lot more entering seminary than a lot of people did when they came out of it. I just because I just read a lot.

T.J.: 19:16

You were that hungry.

Andy: 19:17

Oh, I was.

T.J.: 19:18

Yeah. Well, what advice would you have for somebody who is seeking seeking a new way, seeking a new path, and they may not be able to articulate it in in what, I would call church speak or Christian speak. Mhmm. But what where would you point them to, in terms of well, the scriptures, let's say they're not very very familiar with it or or never really opened up a bible before, but where would you point somebody who is seeking a new way of life that, the world doesn't have to offer. And so they're they feel like they've kind of exhausted all those different avenues and they have not been filling in the way that, Christians talk about being filled.

Andy: 20:07

So you're talking about somebody who's doesn't know the Lord?

T.J.: 20:11

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, they might not even put it in that particular way just because of the vernacular or the language. Yeah. Sure.

T.J.: 20:19

You know, but putting in a way that this world is not offering what I need, but I don't know exactly what it is that I do need.

Andy: 20:26

Well, I would I'd probably tell them that there is something within all of us that needs fulfillment.

T.J.: 20:40

Mhmm.

Andy: 20:40

And there's they're just an emptiness that's inside everybody, a void, you might say. And a lot of people try to fill that void with the pleasures of this world and and other things, maybe even relationships. But the only thing that can truly fill that void is God himself and through a relationship with his son, the lord Jesus Christ.

T.J.: 21:06

You were telling me that there was a point in your your late teens, early twenties, with a with a health scare and Yes. That was that was a a place that you had made a promise. Mhmm. I can't I can't remember from our, earlier technical difficulties if we if we got that in the recording or not. So, Andy, if you don't mind, can we can we talk about that for a few minutes and and what that was like?

T.J.: 21:31

Yeah.

Andy: 21:32

Sure. Yeah. I had a, I have what's called Maccles diverticulum, which is an outgrowth from your umbilical cord. And, what it would do, it would wrap itself around my intestine, and I'd get a blockage. And there's different points in my life where it happened, and the doctors didn't know what was going on.

Andy: 21:54

And, I got sick at age 7, age 12, age 18. 18 is when I had that experience where I surrendered to the lord. Mhmm. But, and and got was born again, but I still had that sickness. And, I got sick again when I was 21 and then 25 and then even 27.

Andy: 22:13

And the thing is about this, it was a crippling thing. I mean, just to give you an example, one time, I I lost £20 in 4 days. And my mom took me to the doctor. I think this is when I was about 21. And, the the doctor could not find any vital signs whatsoever.

Andy: 22:35

They rushed me to the hospital, almost died. And, but it would always go away on its own. And my doctor, he wanted to he thought it was maybe Crohn's disease, but he wasn't sure. And he didn't wanna label me with Crohn's because of the insurance difficulties. So his philosophy was, you know, if we got to put an IV in you every 3 or 4 years and you get better, then let's just do it and just watch this.

Andy: 23:00

Well, then I went to a seminary in Springfield, Missouri from Indiana, and, when I when I was there, I got sick again. So I was 8 hours away from home, and I had a a friend of mine take me to the hospital. I knew the drill. It happened all the time, so I I knew what to do. But this time was different, and I was getting it I it wasn't going away.

Andy: 23:22

And so they did exploratory surgery, and they found it. And I've I've been fine ever since. That was probably, oh, well, many years ago. About 25 years ago.

T.J.: 23:35

That's alright. You don't have to share your age.

Andy: 23:40

But I'm I'm thankful for it. I'm I'm thankful that the Lord was with me. And I I did have a sense of peace too when I was before I went under the knife, so to speak, I was I just felt this peace because I knew that I'm you know, there's a possibility I may not wake up, but I I felt the peace of God. And, I knew I was right with the Lord, and he was gonna be with me. So thank God that I did wake up, and, I've been able to serve the Lord and, have a family and, serve the church today.

T.J.: 24:16

And not have to have an IV every 3 or 4 years.

Andy: 24:19

Yes. Exactly. I've I've had actually I'm grateful I've had no complications whatsoever in that area.

T.J.: 24:27

Well, let's talk about your calling into the ministry. You were in your early or I'm sorry, early twenties and you're leading the bible study And you're growing in your discipleship, which is which is, well, the typical life of of a Christian. So Yeah. How how did you move, and what was this calling into the ministry? And and what did you think that that looked like for you at that time?

Andy: 24:57

Well, once I surrendered to the Lord, I was it's what I wanted to do. And, I felt, I felt at peace with it. My parents were they weren't crazy about the idea, Probably because well, they just told me. I said, well, you know, they're like, you know, ministers don't make that much money. And, I'm like, well, I don't care.

Andy: 25:20

This is what God wants me to do, so I'm gonna do it. And they supported me in that once they knew I wasn't gonna change my mind. But, but, you know, I did have to make some changes because I was, studying biology at Indiana University. And so I talked to my pastor and, he told me I'm like, oh, no. What do I need to do to become a minister?

Andy: 25:41

And I started the process there in the Methodist Church, which is very similar to the Presbyterian. And I'm trying to think here. He basically told me that, you know, just pick a degree that interests you, something as a fallback, and then we'll send you to seminary after you're done. And so that's basically what I did. I I I probably, I started getting involved in youth ministry after that.

Andy: 26:11

I started preaching a little bit. I became an outreach director in a church with evangelism in the local church. And so I did quite a few things, before I actually became a a minister. And the, I think here, the the Methodist Church is a little bit different because, they have what's called, licensed local pastors. So you actually become a a minister first.

Andy: 26:35

Like, we have, we have. They have a license to preach, but they can't pastor yet, and, they can't do the sacraments. Well, the Methodist Church, you have to become a licensed local pastor before you're actually become an ordained elder. It's It's a requirement, I think for like 5 years or so. And so that's what I was that's what I became actually during seminary.

Andy: 26:54

And so I I was doing that for about I did that for like 5 years, and that's and then that that's when I left the Methodist Church because I I saw it was going a direction that I didn't wanna go myself.

T.J.: 27:08

We were, talking off mic about, how you got connected to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. So, I think this is the point of your faith journey where, you get introduced to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in a unique way.

Andy: 27:25

Mhmm. Yeah. Well, after I left the Methodist church, I I filled in different places, like, as an interim, and I helped a friend of mine who was a pastor, and I was his associate for a while. And, coming from the Methodist Church, I I felt like starting a, an independent Methodist church. And so that's what we did.

Andy: 27:48

And we I tried to find a a venue, a place where we could gather. I had a small, group of friends who came and my family, and, we I've called different churches in Springfield, Missouri, and, the pastor of the Springfield church called me back up, and the first Cumberland Presbyterian there, and he he talked with me a little bit. I met with him and the elders, and they they allowed us to meet there. And we were meeting about we we started out meeting in the afternoon, and then we met in the morning. We changed the service time from 1 in the afternoon to 8 in the morning.

Andy: 28:26

And when we did that, my family and I would stay afterwards, and we go to the Sunday school class of a Cumberland church. And, we did that for quite a while. And just out of the blue one day, the, pastor of of First Cumberland said, you know, you guys go to Sunday school with us and stuff. He said, why don't you, consider becoming, you know, a part of us? And you can still have your your service and and, you can be my associate.

Andy: 28:52

And, we I prayed about that because I also had an offer from another denomination, the associate reform Presbyterian Church. They wanna do a church plant, and they had I'd already been in contact with them. And so we were considering affiliating with them, but I've we felt the Lord directing us towards the Cumberland Church. So we became Cumberland Presbyterians.

T.J.: 29:15

Going back to that time period, what what was it about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church that drew you to to it?

Andy: 29:23

Okay. Their doctrine, I I had a copy of their confession of faith. And, it just I didn't have anything I disagreed with because I even when I was in the Methodist church, I'd actually become very reformed. And, I yeah. It's kind of strange because I my my doc you know, my understanding of doctrine started changing because they they actually teach you can lose your salvation.

Andy: 29:48

Well, I'd already embraced eternal security, and I actually felt like the Presbyterian government was, the biblical form of government. So, anyhow, the thing about, like, I mentioned how the associate reform presbyterians had contacted me. Well, that's the thing about them. They're very Calvinistic. And even though I and I would consider myself a moderate Calvinist like the the Cumberland Church, because I believe in free will, but also believe in the sovereignty of God.

Andy: 30:15

And that's one of the things that that the, Cumberland Presbyterian Church teaches. Whereas the other Presbyterians, they totally deny free will. So I really felt this is where I fit. This is where I belong.

T.J.: 30:29

So at that point, have you finished your seminary degree that and that that was complete and and

Andy: 30:36

Yes. I actually had finished that, before, before I got ordained.

T.J.: 30:44

Well, let's talk about the the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and I think the the church universal as well. I like asking the guests, what what do you think that we are getting right in terms of ministry and mission and discipleship? And what do you think the church is missing here in 2022?

Andy: 31:07

Well, I I love the fact that for small denomination, I think we do a lot. Yeah. And, you know, we are, we're not just an American church. We are a universal church ourselves.

T.J.: 31:20

Mhmm.

Andy: 31:20

We're part of the universal church, but we we're everywhere. And there's something about that I really, really like. And I also you know, we're we're international, and we we have our own seminary, our own college. We have a a children's home, and I I just think for a small group, we do quite a bit. As far as what we get right, I think I don't think there's one just one thing that we do.

Andy: 31:47

Right? I, I think there's a lot of things we do. Right? But I I do think sometimes we're missing something, and it's not just us. It's, every, a lot of churches, a lot of nominations.

Andy: 32:02

I think sometimes we try so hard to be open to reach out to others that that theologically, we don't stand our ground. And that and that's caused a lot of tension in our own denomination because of that. Some people lost their convictions about what the Bible teaches and what the confession is said for and stated for a long time. And so I hate seeing that. That bothered me.

Andy: 32:28

That's one of the reasons why I left the Methodist Church to begin with.

T.J.: 32:33

Yeah. We as Christians, you know, anytime you gather us together as a community of faith, you know, you're you're gathering up differences. And Mhmm. By doing this podcast, one of the things that it has taught me, it's taught me many things, is our faith journeys are not always at the same speed and same No. Pace.

T.J.: 32:57

And we're not always walking in unison. No. So that creates, can can create tensions and conflicts, but tensions and conflicts aren't necessarily negative. It's just how we interact with one another. True.

T.J.: 33:13

That is important and I I think that we have to be graceful and provide listening ears and Mhmm. And work through tensions and conflicts together. I know that's very vague, but I think some of those things work in many settings even beyond, a denomination or Right. A local congregation. I think those principles do help, as we as we move forward.

Andy: 33:43

Right.

T.J.: 33:45

Andy, we're coming on, I I hope, on the other side of a pandemic. And Mhmm. The pandemic has taught, I think, us as Christians and just as humanity, a lot about ourselves. And one of the things that I think for ministers is trying to care for ourselves, spiritually and and and physically. What advice do you have for listeners to that, is working for you that helps keep you healthy?

Andy: 34:24

Physically?

T.J.: 34:25

Physically and spiritually and emotionally. Sure.

Andy: 34:31

Well, you know, we are some would say we're body and spirit, and others would say we're body, soul, and spirit. And, but, you know, there is there's the spiritual aspect of us and there's the the physical aspect of us, and we need to take care of all of it. Mhmm. You know, I try to stay balanced, with my devotional life. I'm consistent in, you know, my scripture reading daily along with my prayer life.

Andy: 35:02

And I I was taught a long time ago too that my my own study of the scriptures is not just studying for sermons, not just studying for bible studies. I I've gotta do that too. But apart from doing that, I need time in the word. Just study. And, I make sure I get that As far as, physically, I try to do things 6 days a week.

Andy: 35:31

Sunday is probably the only day I don't do anything. But, the other 6 days a week, I I do several different things, at least 30 minutes a day to try to keep myself physically fit.

T.J.: 35:43

Well, depending on your style of preaching Mhmm. Sunday could also be physical, activity as well.

Andy: 35:52

Oh, yeah. I I take a I teach a Sunday school class before church service as well. And so we studied the Bible. We're in Genesis right now, and then we had the preaching. But I an older minister once told me that he felt like preaching a a message is just about, like, putting a a whole 8 hour day in because physically.

Andy: 36:15

And I would have to agree with that. Yeah. Definitely. Pretty with that.

T.J.: 36:19

Yeah. It it it's it's very draining. Mhmm.

Andy: 36:22

You

T.J.: 36:22

know, and and you spend, you know, a week or sometimes more in that sermon, just preparation and study. And then you have the culmination of the of the delivery. And then the other workings of of the community faith as well, just the church life as well. It really can, put a toll on on you in in terms of your energy level. It can.

T.J.: 36:46

And I think it's always important for those who are, leaders in the church, whether you're ordained or not, to to, you know, be careful and be conscious of of of caring for your body so that you can care for others.

Andy: 37:02

Mhmm. Well, Andy, before I let

T.J.: 37:04

you I've worked on that. Yeah. I really like what you said, because there's that temptation, to approach the scriptures if you're a minister, only with the sermon preparation in mind. And, Yes. You know, there there needs to be that feeding of your own relationship and and and the sermon preparation as well.

T.J.: 37:31

And any any advice on that light switch, so to speak, of being able to open up the scriptures and go, okay, this is for my personal devotion and I am not in search for a a biblical text Right. For a Sunday school class or for a sermon or a bible study.

Andy: 37:51

And by the way, that that, that advice, I actually got from a book that I read that really changed my life in ministry, called Preaching and Preachers by doctor Martin Lloyd Jones, who passed away in 1981. But that book was actually actually a series of lectures on preaching and preachers, and that that book is something that has shaped my life and my ministry. And that's just one of the things I remember him teaching in it. I I I probably read that I read the book originally in seminary. It's a requirement for a spiritual formation class, And I probably read it read through it again probably every year.

Andy: 38:31

But anyway, when I when I open the scriptures, I try to I try to read through both the old and the new testaments, and, I just have a time frame that I spend every morning. It's the first thing I do is have some coffee and I open up my bible and that's just my devotional reading for the day. And then when I get to church, then that's that's time to, to, you know, start studying for my sermons and stuff like that. So I kinda keep it divided. Oh, that's interesting.

Andy: 39:03

Is though, but about the minister, though, apart from that, sometimes people think that we're just, you know, we're just our study is just from the sermons, and that's not always the case. We need to be feeding ourselves. And, yes, we need to study for the sermons and prepare and prepare those. But apart from that, the life of a minister is someone who who, is an avid they need to be an avid reader. And, that's one of the other things I got from the book that we need to be always just consuming different things and gotta be balanced about it.

Andy: 39:37

You know, studying theology, studying church history, studying, just something that of that's of interest. And, the thing is apart from those hours of study, that's where the sermons are gonna come from too. I know that the, Charles Spurgeon, for example. Charles Spurgeon, and I don't model my ministry after him because I wouldn't do the what he does, but what he did, he didn't start his sermon preparation till Saturday evenings. And, but all through the week, he just spent all of his time in his study, just just consuming the the word and and reading different things.

Andy: 40:14

And so his sermons would come out of that, but Saturday night, he'd write he'd write a little one page outline out, and then on Sunday morning, he'd preach from it. Wow. I'm not that comfortable doing that. I there's a lot more to my to my, sermon outlines that outlines at just a little page. But anyhow and I don't wait on Saturday night either.

Andy: 40:31

But I do like his idea of of just, you know, spending that time outside of your preparation time in studying different subjects.

T.J.: 40:42

I really like what you said, about, the devotion time and the sermon preparation time actually having difficult, physical locations. So devotion, you know, maybe is not at the desk if you have an office, but devotion is at the kitchen table at home. It's in a entirely different location. That's that's a fantastic way to, I think, begin the practice and maintain the practice of not doing, the devotion and sermon preparation in the same location. So it helps make it distinctive.

Andy: 41:18

It does. And it's probably the time frame too. Because in the morning because I probably, because realistically, most of my preparation is is done at home.

T.J.: 41:28

I

Andy: 41:28

do have office hours in Monday through Thursday, and I'm studying I'm doing doing some book study here as far as, like, preparing for the sermon. The actual writing, of my sermons and, bible studies are probably in the afternoon at my study at home.

T.J.: 41:48

Okay. I still like that. I'm gonna give you credit of of having devotion. I'll add to this, from what you said. So having devotion at a specific time in a specific location in that sermon preparation at a different time and maybe even in a different location.

T.J.: 42:07

That may help separate the 2. So when you sit down and approaching the scriptures, your your body and your mind and the setting help convey Yes. It does. What what you're doing. Yeah.

T.J.: 42:22

Well, Andy, what are you reading now?

Andy: 42:27

I'm reading a, right now, I just picked up a book on evangelism, and, I can't remember the the name of it because I just picked it up. And, anyway, right now, I am working on my doc doctor of ministry, and so I'm not able to do as much reading. Most most of the reading I do is my classes.

T.J.: 42:50

Yeah. Required.

Andy: 42:52

Yeah. They're required reading. But this summer, though, I'm not. I'm just reading, different things. I picked this book up, and I I also have, Charles Spurgeon's, Metropolitan Tabernacle.

Andy: 43:03

I've got all of his works. So I I try to to read his sermons at for inspiration.

T.J.: 43:08

Mhmm. So you look for his works for inspiration, but you don't follow his practices on sermon preparation.

Andy: 43:16

Yes. Exactly. Yeah. I don't like the way it goes Saturday night. I usually, I start as early as Monday.

Andy: 43:26

So

T.J.: 43:27

Yeah. Some people call that, what is it, the Saturday night special.

Andy: 43:32

Oh, yeah. No. I don't even like to be I mean, sometimes I'm still working on my sermon on Saturday, but I don't like that. I I like to have it done beforehand.

T.J.: 43:41

Yeah. Yeah. I think mine is always in process. It it always needs help. It always needs the tinkering with.

Andy: 43:50

Yeah. Me too. I that's one of the things I do on Sunday morning. I mean, it's I'd say it's done before that, but I always look it over, and I'll make some finishing touches on it.

T.J.: 44:00

Yeah. Yeah.

Andy: 44:01

Same with our bible study.

T.J.: 44:03

Yeah. Mine are never polished and and there are plenty who can testify. Mhmm.

Andy: 44:09

Right. It's

T.J.: 44:09

too they can confirm that, Yeah. That Andy, thank you so much for, being forthright and forthcoming and and, working through the tech issues to to make this happen. I appreciate it.

Andy: 44:25

You're welcome.

T.J.: 44:26

And I appreciate you taking the time to share your faith journey.

Andy: 44:31

Oh, you're very welcome. I appreciate the honor to privilege to be here.

T.J.: 44:36

Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road. If you enjoy this podcast, consider subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcasting site. And now to close with a quote from Charles Spurgeon. Friendship is one of the sweetest joys of life. Many might have failed beneath the bitterness of their trial had they not found a friend.