Anna Brockman - A Desire To Care & Serve
You were listening to the Cumberland Road, and I am your host, TJ Malinoski. In this episode, Anna Brockman shares her faith journey. She's an associate minister at the Winchester Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Anna shares her experience of growing up in the midst of church as a joyful life giving experience. She tells her journey with humor and authenticity. There is much laughter in this conversation. However, we share serious and deep moments too. From the grief of losing her mother to the call upon the church universal to relearn what it means to have power and influence. This is the Cumberland Road, and here is my conversation with Anna Brockman.
T.J.:Anna, what is the most joyous part of ministry for you?
Anna:The most joyous part of ministry for me is people. I have found, this is my experience, that people are amazing. People are amazing in their ability to empathize and care for each other. People are amazing in how brave they are. People are amazing in how they can change and do things differently and do things new.
Anna:People are amazing in their creativity. And as someone who is ordained and serves as a pastor, I have a gateway into people's lives that not everybody has, and I am amazed at how people can share themselves. People are amazing. I mean, I consider it a great privilege that people would ask someone like me to be there when their loved one has died and to share that intimate space. And it's amazing to see how they can love and care for each other and how they work through something so mysterious, something so big, part of their lives.
Anna:So, I mean, I feel such joy when I see people, especially in my congregation. That's my context for ministry a lot of times. They take care of each other. You know, I I just love to see, you know, people who bring casseroles to other people's houses, you know, who show up when they're in their greatest need. Really, people are amazing, and they do amazing things.
Anna:And where I am, I've seen their stories. They're complex, amazing, wonderful, crazy stories, and you think, wow. Look at these people, and look what they can do and who they are, and what a great opportunity I have that they would share that with me.
T.J.:And you get to be part of their journey. I think ministry is one of those rare vocations where it allows the individual to be a part of all stages of another's life. Birthdays, baseball games, sickness, weddings, birth, even the mundane to to death.
Anna:Right. As pastors, like, we're there for the everyday things, you know, seemingly boring, catching people at the grocery store. Right. And then we're there on their wedding days. You know?
Anna:We're there for baptisms. We're there I mean, you know, sometimes people invite you into their darkest times, their greatest need times, and also the greatest height times. And I just I can't get over it. I don't have words where I can't get over how people share themselves and how deeply you can be involved in their lives.
T.J.:How difficult or how easy is it to reciprocate though? So the people that we serve with in ministry, in many ways, open up their lives completely, as you've mentioned. From your experience as a minister and as a Christian, how far do we open our lives to the people we're serving with and the people we're serving to?
Anna:You're right. I I think that's an important piece. You know, if if we talk talk about wanting to be in community with people and talk about what the church is, the church is connecting, and that's never a one way street. At my ordination, my father preached. My father is also a pastor, and so was his father.
Anna:And my dad preached at my ordination, and he shared with me some great advice. And it has seen me through so far, you know, my ordained ministry, and his buy his advice for any person who serves in any capacity would be to love your people and let them love you. And so I have taken that simple advice to heart. When I began at the Winchester Church, that was my first full time ministry. I had worked at other churches before that.
Anna:This was my first full time, my first ordained, you know, time working as an ordained person, and it was in 2016. In May of 2016, my mother died. And so I began that ministry, you know, very raw from that. Also, my husband is a school teacher and he had already, you know, planned to work that school year in West Tennessee, and I had to move toward Middle Tennessee. So I moved into the house across the street from the church in October of 2016.
Anna:I was there by myself, you know, very still very saddened, still in deep grief, for in my mother's death. And in some ways for me, that was an easy way to open up and say, I'm sad. I'm lonely, and I need church family. And the church took me in. I my first sermon that I preached at the church was about prayer, and I preached on the prayer that I didn't get the answer I wanted to.
Anna:And, it was good to it was it was difficult, but ultimately good. I felt that I was able to share my story and share myself in a healthy way. Like, of course, like, we don't have to, you know, be wide open and bear all things, but I think to share deeply with who we are, you know, not just at a surface level. Yeah. I also made sure to share in that sermon, gifts that I like.
Anna:I remember sharing them what my sonic order was. And next week, I got Sonic gift cards. But, you know, I I am the product of, I I of someone else's ministry. You know, I grew up being a preacher's kid.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anna:And so and I feel like my my father is a very good preacher. He's a very good pastor. And, I felt like he modeled well for me letting people love you. And letting people loves you means letting people see when you're sad, letting people see when you're grieving. It also means letting people give you gifts.
Anna:You don't have to be too proud to say no to presents. People just wanna love you. And part of my ministry, part of my faith journey is really intertwined in being in a pastor's family and being a pastor. I don't know what your experience is, but my experience is that churches wanna take you in, and they want to make you family.
T.J.:Well, let's go there. What does it mean to be the minister's daughter? What is that life like? How did you combat or lean into stereotypes that come with the title, the minister's daughter?
Anna:Oh, yeah. Right? I mean, honestly, my personality is very much rule follower, do the things you should. So I did not you know, just by virtue of who I am, I don't really you know, I don't fit the bill of that stereotypical rebellious creature child.
T.J.:Okay. That's the pat answer. Now, let's get down to the did you experience though that that stereotype? It's probably died, but it was there in the US culture for a while of, you know, the preacher's kid or the preacher's kids or, you know, the minister's son or the minister's daughter. What what is that life like for you?
Anna:For me for me, personally, it was life giving because since my dad was taken in by the church, so was I.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anna:And, you know, I talk about how my dad models pastoral ministry for me. My mother modeled what it means to be related to the pastor. Mhmm. And my mother didn't live into other people's expectations of her. You know, in some churches, there are expectations that the pastor's wife will play the piano, and she'll be the first lady, and she'll go to every event.
Anna:Well, my mother was not that person, and she never felt like she had to prove herself to anybody. She did what she wanted. She participated in the church the way that she wanted, and she would have done those things whether or not she was married to dad. And so for me, that model, well, we're our own people. Of course, like, we're related to the pastor and, you know, like, people will see us more, but, you know, that just meant more people who wanted to take care of us.
Anna:And I don't know if that's virtue of just our family and our family dynamics. I think that's part of it. It could also be the churches that we grew up in. It wasn't my experience that I had to live up to other people's expectations of, like, perfection or yeah. I do remember a little bit probably in middle school and high school an expectation of being at every event.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anna:You know, I I have to go to every event. I'm going to all the retreats, all the rallies. Rallies. But even then, I got to a point where, well, I'll I go when I wanna go. So for me, you know, my memories of church and growing up are are joyful, and they're life giving.
Anna:And, you know, there are lots of beautiful moments and that I felt like I was part of a community and part of people who loved me and let me love them.
T.J.:That that's great. And I hope others who are in, what would you call it, minister's family, experience those same things too. How about in school growing up? Did you feel that you were treated any differently by your peers? Or did it enhance
Anna:your relationship? Like a novelty. Okay. And, also, where we grew up you know, like, in some communities, like, the church you're in might be, like, the church that you're in. Well, I had a lot of friends who weren't necessarily part of our church, and we weren't the biggest church in town.
Anna:I mean, as far as Cumberland Presbyterians go, the Beavercreek Church in Knoxville is a large congregation, but as far as, like, churches in Knoxville, Tennessee, it's one of a dozen.
T.J.:Right.
Anna:Yeah. So it was more like a novelty. Not I don't know. I get and it might be the way my parents brought us up. Yeah.
Anna:You know, I'm I'm very grateful for my parents, because the way they raised us, at least my experience, I can't speak for my siblings, was that we're our own people and we're connected to this family, but I don't have to be a certain person in order to elevate my parents' status.
T.J.:Yeah. And you didn't feel the pressure to do so? No. Well, as a parent, you know, I have hopes for both my children that they find communities of faith to be a part of, wherever that looks like, and however that looks like, as a minister and as a spouse to a minister, which is fun and dynamic.
Anna:That's an interesting dynamic
T.J.:too. Sure. What I'm leading to, though, is as you were growing up, my concern let me back up. My concern is that neither child latches on to the faith of, you know, their their mom and dad, but develop a faith and find a community faith that is theirs, that they feel that they can be a part of and participate in. And so for you growing up in a family of ministers, a heritage there, were you encouraged to to develop your own faith?
T.J.:Did you feel any temptation of of, you know, being honed down to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church or, to make a profession of faith or what what was that like for you?
Anna:I feel like I was given a strong foundation and good experiences, to lay my faith on. Know? Because when I think about my childhood, you know, I think of clinking communion glasses with my brother and ladies behind us. Carolyn Schuler laughing behind us. I think of Chuck
T.J.:I'm just I'm just imagining 2 small children doing that.
Anna:Yeah. It was me and Ben. It was me and Ben. You know, like like 4 6 years old. That's when we were doing that.
T.J.:That would have been fun if you said 1416 years old.
Anna:Yeah. We did this last week when we went back home. It's tradition. But, I mean, I think there is a strong foundation of this is who we are, this is where we go. But I I didn't feel confined in that.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anna:And and, again, I don't know what to point to necessarily for that, but it wasn't my experience that I felt like, for anything with my parents that it's my way or the highway. There are clear boundaries. This is who we are. And for me, I've always felt like faith was shared with me. And, and I remember when I was in middle school, choosing to claim my baptism and make a profession of faith.
Anna:I remember there there was a shift in me that said, well, my parents have brought me up in this. I want to take it on for myself, and I want to go in front of the church and say yes to these promises. You know? But for me, it was a gift that I had been baptized as a child. I don't I don't have, like, a conversion experience, but it also means I've never known a time when I didn't love Jesus.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anna:When I didn't believe that Jesus was the Lord and savior and that I didn't believe that Jesus was the one who would lead me and the one I can follow. Just like I don't know what time when I wasn't part of the sweet family. You know? But we all, you know, we all grow in our age and we well, do I wanna hang out with this family? Do I wanna do things the same way they did?
Anna:And I do. Yeah. But with my faith, in my family and in my church family, I felt, like, in my family and in my church family, I felt like there was this experience of we wanna share our faith and grow you in this space, but we don't wanna confine you or bind you to it. Yeah. And so I for me, that gave me space to grow and learn things for myself.
Anna:And even now growing and learning in my faith, that doesn't mean I believe all the exact same things that my dad believes. But I I have a dad who I can talk with about it, about our faith and have deep conversations about it and deeper understandings of what faith looks like in different people's lives.
T.J.:Yeah. And I would find that as advantageous because both being in ministry, you don't have to do much of the setup. You know, you can just kind of jump right into it. Whether it's a biblical text or theological thought or concept, there's not much of, like, preparation. Just be like, what do you think about this?
T.J.:You know, because I'm working on a, a Sunday school lesson or a sermon or I experienced this during a pastoral care, and you can just dive right in, which is similar, I think, for spouses that are ministers to be able to go home and go, oh, this is what happened in the session meeting. This is what it felt like. And but not have to pause and explain, you know, the structure of how a session meeting operates.
Anna:Right.
T.J.:You know, there there's that you just kinda know.
Anna:Yeah. And it's been really great for me. You know, I'm I am, you know, a few years into ordained ministry. You know, my dad and I call each other and talk about, you know, this was not great. This was great.
Anna:But, again, I I'm so proud of my dad and proud of the work he does and he serves as such a strong model for me in that he'll still call me and say, this was new to me in ministry. This was difficult for me or this is how I worked through it. I really appreciate his humility and his room for, like, the grace of God to work. Because there, you know, there have been times, especially when I was first ordained, that I would compare myself to him. You know?
Anna:And that's not fair. He's literally been doing ministry longer than I've been alive. He's had way more experiences than I have, but still, I would. And I I'm I'm proud of myself that I've been able to grow into this understanding that I'm growing.
T.J.:Ain't that funny that we who you're honest enough to admit it. We do compare ourselves to our colleagues in ministry, whether we're related to them or not, and being able to go, Oh, I wish I had those gifts, or I could utilize my skills in this particular way in comparison to another human being. Why do we do that instead of just celebrating the gifts that we see in another person and rejoice that they have those instead of that comparison. I think it diminishes diminishes our own ministry and maybe even the ministry of that other person, even if they don't know that we admire them or envy. Or whatever.
T.J.:Yeah. Or we could.
Anna:I don't know why we do that. I mean, that, you know, that works for any person. Why do we you know, and and maybe it just speaks to our you know, if we have feelings of inadequacy. You know, we reach out, and for some reason, we shit we say, I should be that person. You know?
Anna:But that's not truth speaking to us. That's lies speaking to us.
T.J.:And if and if it's pure admiration, we should share it with the other person. Yeah. Instead of waiting until the funeral to say what an awesome person they are. Tell them now. Go, I really admire this about you.
T.J.:Who besides your father have helped influence your ministry and that have also impacted your faith? And your mom. You mentioned your mom too.
Anna:Right. Right. I mean, I I come from a a line of faithful women as well. You know, I growing up in the Beavercreek church, I had a lot of really great examples of laypeople as well. You know, sometimes we think that ministry is only for people who are ordained to be pastors.
Anna:You know, and, like, they're they're the top of, you know, showing what ministry is, but I had a great advantage being in the Beavercreek church. The lay people of the Beavercreek Church get the work done. And my dad's just there to be like, sure. You're doing that fine. Like, I mean, I don't know what it is.
Anna:I don't because in some ways, I'm like, who do I think I am to be on this podcast? You've already interviewed Gwen Roddy. And Gwen Roddy, in my book, is a superstar. Yeah. My goodness.
Anna:The amazing things that she's able to share herself with people. I I so admire her and the work that she does.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anna:I'm just amazed at people who show up. And so for me, I had a lot of examples in churches growing up of people showing up and showing up with their gifts that showed me this this is what ministry is, showing up with who we are and the things we have available.
T.J.:And and practice using them and sharing them with others. You had mentioned Gwen. I mean, she's the prime example of of, jumping out there and go, okay, let's try it. And then sharing her faith in the midst of it. Yeah.
T.J.:Anna, let's talk about your, your calling in the ministry. Yeah. So you've you've already established that, no, I was not afraid of faith and just, you know, I had the space to express myself and grow in the church and amazing people. How did all of that get mixed together and send you out to consider ministry to the to the word and the sacraments?
Anna:I feel like it was a long time in the making before I realized it. I had opportunities to serve in leadership, at camps. I had the opportunity to serve in leadership for the Cumberland Presbyterian Youth Conference. You know, I remember Jill Carr was my counselor, and I was the only girl from my church. It was me, and it was my brother Aaron.
Anna:I had no friends. And for me, that was a moment where I felt seen. I felt like she saw me, and she's the one who recommended me for that. And so I found that I enjoyed doing that. I enjoyed being in leadership.
Anna:I enjoyed doing work with the church. One of the years that I served on that, Eleanor Brown was the leader of the worship team, and I was on the worship team. And, I mean, I it had to be weird. I was that weird kid on YMPC that was like, oh, Eleanor, please let me take the liturgy. I want to write I want to write a call and response.
Anna:I want to do a litany. Like, who else in the world? Right. And even then, I didn't realize that that was, like, not normal people things to do.
T.J.:About how old were you at this time?
Anna:I was in high school. I was, like, 16, and I preached my first sermon at CPYC. I did. I preached my first sermon, And when I was done with it, I was like, this is a lot. Oh my goodness.
Anna:What is this? It wasn't the worst thing I did in the world. I mean, I kicked over the offering for the day and coins just scattered everywhere. But I was like, I recovered and it was fine, but, like, I remember running back to the cabin and I had to take a shower. I was like, this is too much.
Anna:What is this? But even then, I didn't really know. Mhmm. And it wasn't until I got to college. I went to Bethel.
Anna:It was Bethel College when I started. It became Bethel University when I graduated.
T.J.:So you changed the school then?
Anna:It was I said, we gotta do something about this. We're gonna have to f up our game. But while I was there again, I was that person who, even though it wasn't required, I went to communion services every week. I was one of, like, a handful and I went and I was, you know, 1 week, I was one of the straggling people last to leave. And Anne Hames, who is the chaplain at, the university, she said, she said, oh, Anna, you know you're called right.
Anna:You know you're called to ministry. And I was like, oh, wow.
T.J.:Was that the
Anna:first time?
T.J.:Was that the first time?
Anna:Oh, that was, like, an external call Okay. I would say. I mean, I was, like, I mean, I it, you know, it took me a while to realize, oh, I'm I'm the only person. I really like looking at the bulletin and seeing how she chose and wrote things out. I'm really all
T.J.:the time.
Anna:At the parents.
T.J.:You thought every other young person was doing the same.
Anna:I just didn't realize how weird it was. I knew I wasn't like everybody else. Again, I've always been, like, happy to follow the rules, happy to do what's supposed to be done.
T.J.:I should have, reframed my earlier questions about, you know, trying to enter into what is it like to be, you know, a child of a minister and and the stereotypes of minister's daughter. I should have just said, how did you not fall into these categories? And then you could have been telling me what you are now, the bulletins and I know. Right. To the camp and
Anna:What is wrong with me? Well, I mean, I am one of 4 children, and none of the rest of them decided to do the same thing I did. So I guess there's a 25% possibility that it will happen.
T.J.:We were talking about, your calling into ministry. And, you you mentioned Bethel College, turned it into Bethel University. As as you received this external call, what did you, at that time, kind of envision it? Because ministry takes on various shapes and forms. What did you think it was gonna look like in those early moments?
Anna:I don't know what I thought. It didn't take long for me to realize, oh, that's real. You know? Because I imagine for some people when they hear that, they're like, really? Is that for sure?
Anna:But for me, I was like, well, yeah. Duh. I remember calling home. I just know I just I just still remembered. There was, like, a coffee house or something.
Anna:You at at Bethel at that time, you know, every now and again, they would have events called coffee houses and people could share songs they wrote, do performances, and it was kinda loud. And, you know, I was part of, like, the artsy people, like, choir people, theater people. And I remember walking out of that to call them. I just remember it was really loud. It was probably like a dance song.
Anna:Like, I get it's just like, what what what is this person? I'm not really sure for me, you know, how it took shape. At that point, I decided to declare a major in Christian ministries. So my classes were more focused on bible study and, you know, other things that would be helpful in pastoral ministry. At least that's what it looked like to me then.
Anna:I think at one point, and I can't remember if it was when I was in college or if it was when I was in seminary, you know, I thought that I might focus in more on Christian education. I like that aspect of it. And then I took a class in seminary, and I said, oh, no. I don't see I think somebody else with different brains than me used to be doing that. Not that Christian was I mean, Christian education is not part of what I do.
T.J.:What what what part helped you solidify that answer? Was it
Anna:I took a Christian education class, the intro class, and I was like, if this is not for me. And, oh, doctor Crutchfield is the person who taught it. He's wonderful, and he was a great teacher. And I learned a lot from him, but for some reason, it just solidified for me, like, I need more leeway. In some ways, I'm seeing, like, pastoral ministry is, like, there's a lot of leeway.
Anna:If you take care of people, let them take care of you, a lot of it just kinda falls into place, and I really needed that. I really need that in the history. And I didn't see that path in Christian education. And for me, I saw I think I'm gonna need more education. And for me, seminary is going to be the end of the road.
Anna:I've done my edge I feel like I've done educational duty. I had a great experience at at seminary. I don't wanna do it again.
T.J.:Let's talk about your role, where you are now at the Winchester Church, and, what that looks like.
Anna:I have, been serving at the Winchester Church since the fall of 2016. When I was looking for work, I was interested in working as an associate pastor. What I had witnessed in churches, again, growing up in the Beavercreek church, I saw the work of an associate pastor. And I thought that looks like me. I like being supportive of what somebody who has to make the big decisions does.
Anna:I like being a backup. I like being a fill in for things that need to happen. As an associate, I also see it as an opportunity to be involved in all ministries of the church in a way that a senior pastor can't. So for me at the Winchester Church, I have the opportunity to serve in worship settings in both planning and in leading those. I have the opportunity to preach once a month, which that's the gig right there.
Anna:If you like to preach but you don't like to preach every week, that's the gig. I had a job when I was in college at the Mill Creek Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Perrier, Tennessee, and they're wonderful. They are a great con congregation. I don't know when they what they were thinking when they took me on. I had only preached, like, one sermon or and and, like, 3 in class, and they took me on.
Anna:I think the first sermon I preached, I used The Lion King as as an example. They they took me on, and they were great. They took care of me. And it was a great place for me to learn about ministry, learn what I do well, learn what I need to grow in. I also had to preach every week, which when, you know, I was in I was in college and then I had started seminary.
Anna:That's like adding a whole other paper on every week. And and I didn't have the backlog like my dad does. My dad preaches the lectionary, so he can just pull out what he did 3 years ago and 6 years ago and 9 years ago and 12 15 years ago and pull from that. I was
T.J.:so brand new. Yeah. You're writing on the go, literally. Yeah.
Anna:But they were so good to me. I preached some real stinkers, and they were very gracious. They were also very generous. And, so, anyway, I was like, I don't know if I can do this every week thing, but I do feel like I can do pastoral ministry. So at the Winchester Church, I feel like I'm able to do a lot of the things that I'm gifted at, which is pastoral ministry.
Anna:And that includes preaching, but not having to preach every week. And at the church, I've had the opportunity to be very involved in Vacation Bible School. I've had the opportunity to lead small groups, to do bible study, to, be actively involved in camping ministry. We're really close to the Crystal Springs Campground. So I've had a lot of great opportunities at this church to serve in a variety of ways.
Anna:And the church has really taken me in. My before I started, one of my first experiences at the church was the church picnic. And before the church picnic, Michael was kinda taking me on tour. Michael Clark is the senior pastor at the church. And he was taking me around Winchester, which first off, I never know where I am.
Anna:I have to have a GPS. So he was really nice in assuming that I would know where I was, but still, I don't know where I am. He was driving me around. We had to go to the Kroger to pick up the chicken for for the picnic, and a woman from the church who I had never met before literally welcomed me with open arms. She said, oh, hi, Michael.
Anna:And he said, hi. This is Anna, our new associate pastor. And she says, oh, yes. Our new little pastor. And she embraced me in a huge hug.
Anna:So literally welcomed in. I'm I'm the little pastor.
T.J.:Let's talk about the church at a larger scale. The church, the denomination that we serve, Cumberland Presbyterians, and also the church universal. Anna, let's talk, what what are we doing right as the body of Christ? And and what do you think that we're we're missing in terms of our service to to God and and to this beautiful creation?
Anna:I think what we get right is a desire to care and a desire to serve. And what I see in individual congregations is people who welcome each other in and take care of each other through their, you know, their life's journey. You know, they're there for each other. I think what we have to work on is learning how to serve beyond that and to recognize that we're not just connected with our individual church families, but we are connected with our communities and our world. And sometimes where I see that disconnect is we'll say I want to give, we'll say I want to serve, but I think in some ways that is a one way street.
Anna:I want to hand over. I want to give. But I don't know if I want to really engage and let the world and let the community be a part of my life. I see I see and I hear a desire in the church to do that, but I think we have a hard time bridging that and making it possible.
T.J.:What little steps of advice would you give to help us as that type of church to become, to participate, and to be engaged?
Anna:I think we'll need to be willing to engage and participate And to consider that our lives of faith, our lives of worship, they occur in our workplaces. They occur in our schools. They occur in our communities. I think in some ways, we've created our face to be something personal or something like if we share it, we put it on someone else. Mhmm.
Anna:We do that. Like, it's like I invite you to church, church, which I don't wanna say that's a bad thing. I think part of that is being willing to be influenced by other people. And I think that can be scary because we don't I don't I don't say we need to let the world change us. You know?
Anna:Like, there I think there are boundaries there. But if, you know, again, if if we're not allowing people into our lives, then why would they want us to allow us to be in their lives?
T.J.:Right. It's relational.
Anna:Relational. I
T.J.:mean, it's totally relational. And from the giving away and the sharing of our faith, you know, if we're inviting people to the wonderful life of Christ, which is a relationship, we have to have a relationship with that individual for them to be able to, I don't know, trust, be engaged, listen. As we say ourselves, we listen. So I think it's a back and forth. I've used this term before, maybe too much, but it's a dance almost.
T.J.:It's it's that give and take with my neighbor and my coworker and my friend and family member. And if they don't trust me and maybe I don't trust them, then there isn't that transparency, that that natural ability to communicate.
Anna:Right. Because I think there's a whole world, you know, that's outside of our church walls, you know, that, you know, of wonderful people that we haven't gotten to meet yet, people that have incredible stories. And, and I think people that probably wanna hear our stories. You know? And the church, not just in years recent years, but in recent decades, you know, church membership is going down.
Anna:The church doesn't hold the same kind of power or influence that it once had. You know, we used to be, you know, we'll set this up and people will wanna come. The world is shifting, and I think we're having to relearn what it means to have power and influence. Because used to, I think, we felt in the church that power meant we had a lot of people. We had a lot of important, you know, air quote, people.
Anna:You know, I think this can be an opportunity for us to rethink. What does that mean to be an influence and be a, you know, a help for good and a help for love in our communities and in our world. How can we reach out and include and be a part of the people around us and not just wanna have people there at church on Sunday mornings for worship.
T.J.:Yeah. For the sake of saying there were people there on worship or at worship. Yeah, I think I think we can see ourselves as a church, as a member of the community who's contributing to the needs of that particular community, among others who are enhancing and contributing to the needs of the local community.
Anna:Right. And we do have people in our churches who do that. You know, that's one thing. You know, and it is, you know, it is very sad that I don't find this out until someone dies. But, you know, when you go visit a family, as you prepare for a funeral, you listen and you hear all the things that people are a part of.
Anna:And you just never know the people who are part of the local backpack program and have done that for years. You just never know the people who are a part of the humane society and have helped home animals. You just never know. And so one thing's I think those of us who are in leadership in ministry, how do we build on those connections to make sure that the church knows that that's who we can be. Like, all of us can be that in in some way or another, that we're connected with our communities.
Anna:We aren't just out to shoot out god lasers saying we look.
T.J.:Right. Because the humane society is always looking for another volunteer. And, you know, backpacks always can be filled more to the brim. And it takes more than one person to fill those backpacks. I mean there's just there's examples after examples of ways that we can help one another to share the good news of Christ, and it can take on different sizes and ways.
Anna:Right. And I believe that as I look out as lay at laypeople, I believe that they are gifted, and I wonder if they can see the gifts the way I see them.
T.J.:Yeah.
Anna:You know, I wonder if they realize just how full of life they are and what they have to offer the world. And they don't have to do it perfectly. I think somewhere that's where we are. I feel like I have to do it perfectly without fail, but my goodness. When I stand up in a pulpit and I look out there, it's amazing.
Anna:The people who are gathered and, you know, what they're capable of by the grace of God.
T.J.:And that's how our conversation started. I was asking what's the most joyous part of ministry? And you were, like, the amazing people, and this is how they're amazing. Yeah.
Anna:And they're amazing not because they're perfect. Yeah. They they get things wrong and, you know, they they don't do things right, but but then again, there's an opportunity for forgiveness, you know, in them. There's an opportunity to try things new.
T.J.:And to grow.
Anna:You know, and maybe I need to do that more in, you know, my leadership position to say, wow. Look what God can do in you. Look at what who God has gathered together and the possibilities that are here. What can grow out of this community?
T.J.:Yeah. Those are great questions. And to ask that to everybody so the response can be shared.
Anna:Right.
T.J.:You know, it, it's one, Wouldn't it be neat to be in a room where you take a few minutes of time and you you mention all the wonderful things, about that person, you know, in the church, you know, whether they make the best cupcakes or, you know, they can sing great or they can change a car tire the fastest or, you know, whatever it may be. They're the ones who puts the star on the advent tree. What you know, it's whatever. And being able to acknowledge those things. I I guess it's it's, it's bringing more love into the world, you know.
T.J.:It's advancing more love into the world. And we can start that within our own little community of faith. And it can become contagious.
Anna:Right.
T.J.:I'm thinking out loud.
Anna:Maybe I'm wrong. No. I don't think you're wrong. Because, you know, I, you know, I I could look out in the church and say, look at these people who are the ones feeding widows, literally preparing food for widows. Think of you know, I don't know if you realize the impact that you have on that person's life and their family's life.
Anna:Look at these people as I see out. And, through their work, they have a connection with getting people the medical devices that they need. What a blessing that is to our world. You know, it and, you know, personally, where I am as I sit as a pastor, you know, I'm blessed by those people and I hope that they see that they are a blessing as well. They're a blessing to each other and they're a blessing to the world.
Anna:And, of course, it involves trying hard and doing your best, but you don't have to be something that you're not. You know, sometimes in the church, we keep harping on this is what you're not, this is what you're not doing, this is what you should do better, And and sometimes we forget to just say, this is who you already are.
T.J.:Right.
Anna:You're already, you know, you're already beloved. You're already a good creation. You're already gifted.
T.J.:Okay. Well, I'll start here, in this practice. A few weeks ago, Anna, I heard you singing. We were in a we were in the same meeting and you have a great singing voice. What other gifts and and hobbies or interests do you have?
T.J.:I guess singing may not be a hobby, or it could be, but what other gifts do you recognize maybe within yourself, and then what are some interests that you have general interest?
Anna:General interest? Sure. Well, I am a theater kid through and through. Again, another strange thing. I didn't realize this was strange until I said it out loud in high school.
Anna:I remember staying up late to watch, on Turner Classic Movies watching Barbra Streisand in Funny Girl. Oh my goodness. She is fabulous, and it was wonderful. I remember growing up watching, Fiddler on the Roof and White Christmas on VHS. I remember sitting in class watching Oklahoma, and I was like, this is my thing.
Anna:These are my people. My family, my dad used to serve at a church in Texas. And then 95, I was 5 years old, we moved to the Beavercreek Church in Knoxville. And there, you know, a lot of people in the church, you know, they they did soccer. You know, in Texas, they did t ball.
Anna:That was their thing. And dad remembers me, instead of running the bases, I would, I would I would hit the ball with the bat. I'd let the bat go, and I would just twirl. So, like, my dress could twirl. That that I was that child on the ball field.
Anna:And then, like, we played soccer in in Knoxville. That's what everybody did. But it wasn't till I was, like, in middle school that I got to be in a production of Annie. And, oh my goodness, I remember being on stage, and I felt 10 feet tall. And I'm a petite person, but I do not feel that way.
Anna:And I remember in high school, some you know, I auditioned for something and someone said, you've got stage presence. And I was like, I do. And, so since then, I am a theater person through and through.
T.J.:Yeah. I I wish that as we as we've been talking, it it makes me wish that, provide video with the podcast just so people could see that there have been actions to go along with your words and and the demonstrations. You didn't twirl, but I mean, you swung a baseball bat. I mean, there's just a lot of animation in this conversation.
Anna:I can be quite expressive. And so it was really nice, you know, in middle school and high school having the opportunity to be on stage. I also got to do that when I was at Bethel. I was part of the choir program, and then I got to be part of the theater program. And, I got to do a couple plays after I graduated as well, but, oh, theater is my place.
Anna:I love being on stage. It would be nice to be able to do more of that. You know, for now, you know, I'm able to go see shows at the Tennessee Performing Arts Center with my friend Ellen Hudson. Hey, Ellen. She won't listen to this podcast, but if she does, hey.
Anna:She was my college roommate. She's cool. So I get to watch them. But for me, oh, I love theater. I in a lot of ways, I feel the most myself when I get to act.
T.J.:What do you think that is?
Anna:I feel like for me, acting is living out the truest parts of myself. You know? Because any any anything you act out, I think it has to be in some way true even if it's exaggerated, even if it's not really my normal personality. But in a lot of ways, for me, acting is getting back to playing. I get to just play.
Anna:I get to play. I get to imagine. And for me, it's not an intimidating thing. It's it's the place I feel the most brave. I do not consider myself a brave person, somebody who takes challenges.
Anna:But for some reason, I get on on stage, you asked me to do something ridiculous. Of course. Of course. I will roll around. I will I I will do ridiculous impersonations even if they're terrible.
Anna:It's not that I have to be good at it. For some reason, theater is a place for me.
T.J.:So there's no challenge that you would turn down if you were on a stage or a platform?
Anna:Yeah.
T.J.:Alright. That's good to know.
Anna:I mean, that's a tall order. I haven't faced a challenge yet. I've turned down. So
T.J.:Alright. Well,
Anna:I I
T.J.:don't know what settings will bring us together. I don't know what settings will bring us together, but I accept your challenge, and will come up with 1. You mentioned, movies. What movies have impacted your faith?
Anna:I love movies, first off. I love TV. I know a lot of people would like, if you wanna share your hobbies and things you love, you wanna share, like, how you're kinda athletic or you create things.
T.J.:Right.
Anna:I'll be honest. I could sit in front of the TV all day. I love TV. I love movies. I'm such a couch potato.
Anna:You know, some of the most impactful movies, as they relate to my faith have been some of these recent Pixar movies. And and I know I keep going back to it, but it is still a big part of my life. It is my mother's death. You know, for me, you know, that's the big that's been the big turning point in my life. I I would divide at this point, divide my life into 2 time periods before my mother died and after my mother died.
Anna:Not that I haven't gone on living, but it just feels like a whole new book in the series almost. I feel like I'm in the Twin Towers right now. So maybe we'll get to, maybe we'll get to the return of the king. I don't know. Maybe this is just a 2 part series.
Anna:But for me, the movies I remember watching the movie Coco. It's a Disney Pixar movie, and it's set in Mexico about a young boy and his family, and it's set around Dia de Los Muertos. And, it's a movie about finding your family and how we're still connected with our family. And spoilers. People who haven't seen it and you wanna watch it, just don't listen to the next few minutes.
Anna:I don't know how you can do that on your podcast, TJ, to get, you know, a movie that's been out for, like, 5 years or something. Spoilers. At the very end, the last song that Miguel sings is about how we remember people and how we're connected, the And he sings the words, I remember that I had a dream about you. You know, and I remember having dreams about my mom after she died and they felt very real. And those dreams happen at a table eating.
Anna:And it reminded me of the beauty of celebrating communion and how we're connected. For me, when I think about my mom dying, I don't think about, like, her spirit watching over me. Like, that you know? Or her being with me in spirit. That's not language that I use.
Anna:But, you know, through acts like communion, I feel like there's a presence there. And I remember I we watched that movie in theaters, and I just bawled. I just bawled. I bawled. I bawled.
Anna:I bawled. But I was so glad to see, like, something of our faith represented in an unexpected way. Right. I wasn't ready for it.
T.J.:And maybe in an unexpected place. Yeah. Yeah. How about music?
Anna:Well, I'll I'll tell you right now. I got a 3 year old and so she dominates my, my playlist right now. But thank goodness that kids' TV shows have really upped their game on on theme songs. They really have. So but, anyway, we listen to a lot of what my 3 year old Rachel likes to listen to because she's the one who's in charge in our family.
Anna:But what has impacted me a lot since she has been born, at least for me becoming a parent, meant learning what it means to be a person and what we want to teach people and what we want to teach ourselves. You know, the things that we wanna teach reach Rachel, in some ways, I have to reteach myself. And, so we've turned a lot to Fred Rogers. Fred Rogers has been a great influence, and I remember actually, it's back there again. Sorry that we can't put the video on here.
Anna:But back in our kitchen, I remember one day doing dishes, playing the music of Fred Rogers on on the speaker and Rachel crawling around in the floor, and the song, many ways to say I love you came on. In this song, Fred Rogers says, there are many ways to say I love you. There are many ways to say I care about you. And he goes through different things. He says, there's the cooking way.
Anna:There's the eating way. I love that. He says, you know, eating something that somebody makes. There's the serving way. And at the end, he says, you'll find many ways to say I love you.
Anna:And I looked at Rachel and I thought, wow. Who will she who is she and who is she becoming and how will she learn to say I love you? And then and then I felt like I could look at myself and say, who am I and who am I becoming, And how can I continue learning how to say I love you? Which I think really is the core of our faith is, learning to love and learning how to be loved.
T.J.:And to love deeply. We were talking about that off mic. To love and love deeply There's another level.
Anna:Right. Because Fred Rogers and some of his writing, he talks about love and he says, love is a verb. Just like the word struggle is a verb, love is a verb. And, again, you know, Fred Rogers is another example of an amazing story. Someone who was a Presbyterian minister.
Anna:And, of course, when you're becoming ordained, you know, you have to have a calling. His was to television ministry. And, and I I believe that his life showed that kind of love, and his love showed itself in learning about other people and letting people learn. And so for me, it's been a great, model for parenting and for faith. You know, he's somebody who I really look up to.
Anna:And when I heard that song, it just reminded me again of, you know, as faithful people, how can we say I love you? There are so many ways to say, and you'll learn to say I love you. So it was, you know, obviously a good moment that has stuck with me.
T.J.:Yeah. Anna, thank you so much for enriching my time and entertaining me, making me laugh, making me think of my relationships and my love and and impacting my faith, I thank you.
Anna:Oh, well, thank you. It it's a pleasure, and it's a joy.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road. If you enjoy this podcast, please consider subscribing and following on Apple Podcast, Google, and Spotify. In closing, here is a quote from Fred Rogers, television host, Mister Rogers' Neighborhood. I believe that appreciation is a holy thing, that we look for what is best in a person we happen to be with in the moment, and we're doing what God does all the time. So in loving and appreciating our neighbor, we're participating in something sacred.
