Anne Hames - College Life, Addiction, & Love For The Scriptures
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. Reverend doctor Anne Hames is the senior chaplain at Bethel University in McKenzie, Tennessee. Please check out her work and her ministry at bethelu.edu. I believe the power of faith and the power of conversation brings people together. With Anne, her faith journey has difficulties and pains. And with it, there is a commitment to persevere, to love, and continue to be amazed by god. Here is my faith conversation with Anne Hames.
T.J.:Anne, you were telling me off mic that you have been the chaplain at Bethel University in McKenzie, Tennessee for 25 years.
Anne:I have.
T.J.:Let's talk more about that. What have you seen? What have you heard?
Anne:Oh, I have I have loved it all. It, I was not expecting to go into I don't consider it youth ministry. I consider, young adults, and I didn't take classes in youth ministry that wasn't a a specialty of mine. And I tell my students regularly. I'm like, you're 18 years old.
Anne:You're as far as I'm concerned, you're an adult, and I'm not gonna ask your mommy and daddy for permission. So I'm gonna deal with you as a peer, one adult to another. And, they usually respond extremely well to that. But I have loved my position. I I get up every morning and, of course, there are those mornings where it's just like, oh, I gotta go to work this morning.
Anne:But, for the most part, I love it. I just I love my job and I love what I do, and I I love the students. I love the students. In fact, I one time, few years ago, 15 years ago, I started working on my doctorate and somebody commented on that and said, oh, are you interested in going on up in higher administration and interested in possibly becoming the 1st female president of Bethel University? And I said, shoot, no.
Anne:I love the students. I can't, you know, faculty, nah, I could care less. So, they're all prima donnas anyway. So I just love students and and the energy they bring and the freshness they bring and the faith. And, it's it's just a wonderful experience.
T.J.:Yeah. You're catching young adults in a new season of their life.
Anne:Yes.
T.J.:And Yes. Everything is fresh and new and exciting and intimidating. Mhmm. What is it like to be on the front line of many, many people who are experiencing a season of change. And how does your role as a chaplain, I think, speak to those young people and second career people who are moving into a second, or into a season of change?
Anne:Well, one of the questions I love to ask students is right off the bat, because we do not require statement of faith to come to Bethel University. You can be a, you can we've we've actually had an Iman son that came, and, I was amazed at that. He took new testament and, made it a, I will say. And and so we don't you don't have to be a Christian. You you you can be of another, a different faith.
Anne:But, if they are Christian or if they're one question I ask students periodically just in normal conversation is, are you a Christian? And I can tell in 15 seconds just the look on their face, Look on their face if they if they are are sometimes they'll say things like, well, my grandfather was a pastor, a CP Cumberland Presbyterian pastor. And and my my father is an elder, and I've grown up in the church and blah blah blah blah blah. I like to call those people God's grandchildren. They are
T.J.:2nd generation or
Anne:3rd generation. Exactly. 2nd generation Christians, which, of course, is not is an oxymoron. I mean, that just it that just doesn't fit. And so one thing I do is if they say something like that, then I treat them as if they're not a Christian.
Anne:Mhmm. And so, just talk to but, of course, love them all. I could care less. I don't care if you're Baptist, which the majority of our students are, Cumberland Presbyterian, Roman Catholic. If you're a lot we have a lot of agnostics.
Anne:A lot of people who have grown up in the church. They get to college, and they just experiment and or they look elsewhere, or else they just stay in bed on Sunday mornings. And so that happens a lot. And, I I welcome them all. Don't, don't discriminate.
Anne:Don't, read your your faith based or not. I will talk differently a little bit to a Christian and assume that we understand some acronyms and and can can talk basic issues of faith. But, basically, as far as students go, I I don't care what denomination you are or what or what faith you are, I'm gonna I'm going to treat you as a child of the living God. Now if you come in and you're not a Christian and you leave Bethel and you're not a Christian, at least I hope their experience is, you know, I got love there.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anne:I got loved and I got nurtured there, and I was, I was respected as a person. And my, how those Christians love each other. That would that would be perfect if if somebody left saying that. But, I Well,
T.J.:that, that first that first encounter that you have with a student, that discernment of that first faith conversation that you have with him, does that discernment is that a gift? Is that from years of of experience reading body language where you can kinda determine that this is, this person does not profess a faith or this person is a 2nd or 3rd generation Christian, which is different terminology, but we'll go with it.
Anne:Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, what's that?
T.J.:Yeah. How how are you able to discern where somebody is or isn't in a relationship with God through Jesus Christ?
Anne:It it 1, I would say all the above.
T.J.:Okay.
Anne:Discernment. Maybe I do have the gift of discernment. One thing I've had learned is simply ask people questions. Don't pussyfoot around. I mean, just basically ask people questions and then watch their immediate reaction, before they have a chance to be guarded.
Anne:For example
T.J.:And corner
Anne:what they love to
T.J.:and corner them where they can't escape.
Anne:Exactly. What all you gotta do is just watch. Just very much be aware and watch their reaction and see what they do and see what they say. I like one one example I love is a student that is feeling a call to the ministry. Of course, there are 2 parts to the call to the ministry.
Anne:There's the internal call and there's the external call. And the internal call usually goes on long before the external call goes on. And I'll look at a student and say, are you called into the ministry? You know, if they start walking like a duck and quacking like a duck and acting like a duck, I just I kinda sorta name it. I'm like, are you being called into the ministry?
Anne:And inevitably inevitably watch their immediate reaction. If they are called into the ministry, they'll start smiling.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anne:And they'll just go, no. With this great big smile on their face. No. I I could never do that or or, oh, I just wouldn't that just wouldn't work for me or or no. I couldn't I could never do that.
Anne:I know. Our well, I don't know. What is the call to the ministry? And blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. At times like that, yeah.
Anne:Yeah. It, just just watch their immediate reaction, and it tells me volumes. So, ask questions and then watch their reaction. So is that discernment or that's also some skills that, I'll show you my cards. Those are skills that I have gathered after 25 years of doing this job that I
T.J.:love. How did you land at Bethel University as the chaplain?
Anne:Oh, that's a story. That is a story, honey. Let me tell you that. Okay. We had a president at the time, Bob Imhof, who lasted about 6 months or something like that.
Anne:He was he was an interesting blip in Bethel's history, and not many people look back on him fondly. I,
T.J.:But he was there, and he was
Anne:a person. There. Yes. And, I had just been ordained. Doctor Elsie Waddle, preached my ordination and, which was wonderful having him there.
Anne:He was he was the chaplain at the time. And so I got a call a month or so later, and I said somebody on the other hall into the line said, are you interested in becoming would you be interested in moving to McKinsey and becoming the chaplain, and can your husband move? My husband is an emergency room physician. And I said, yes and yes. Sure.
Anne:I can I can do? Hung up the phone. The kids were running around the house. It was a crazy afternoon. I remember it well.
Anne:And, I said that'll never work. Plus, I'm not that interested in moving to rural West Tennessee that much. So yeah. Yeah. No.
Anne:No. No. No. No.
T.J.:Yeah. Where were you coming from at that at that
Anne:time? Cookeville.
T.J.:Okay. We were
Anne:coming from Cookeville, Tennessee. And I come that's another long story. But, yes, we were living in Cookeville at the time at a regional hospital, and my husband was worked in the emergency room. So I just graduated from Memphis Theological Seminary and, which I'll refer to as MTS and, with honors and was ready to go and was, at the time, preaching at 3 PCUSA churches and, was was enjoying that experience. But I wanted to get back into the Cumberland Presbyterian.
Anne:Plus I had a service agreement that I owed a lot of money, didn't mean to pay that off. So I needed to serve the denomination. Lots of reasons. And so I went to, got off the phone and I said, that'll never work. Just never work.
Anne:And my husband said, ye of little faith. Come on, woman. So not a term he calls me often. We went literally into our bedroom, got on our knees, and literally, the prayer was, lord, work it or shut it. Your call.
Anne:We are your servants, and we're ready to to move or go wherever you want us to call to go and, wherever you call. So hung, got up off our knees, and I went outside and cooked supper or something. I can't remember what happened. I went 3 days later, one of my parishioners was one of those multimillion dollar sales agents, realtors. And so I told her, I said, look.
Anne:Tell you, Troy. What if you could sell our house? We sat at our table and said, what's our dream price for this house? You know? If somebody walked up with a checkbook and said, I'll give you this much money for this house, We'd be like, yeah.
Anne:We'll move. Yeah. Honey, you give us that much money, we'll we'll you can have it. Give us time to get out. And, so we came up with a dream price.
Anne:I told her this price, and I said, if you could sell our house, you it's yours. You know, you can market it. She sold it 3 days later. Wow. She sold her house she sold her house before I even went for the interview.
Anne:So I went to the interview going, y'all better hire me because I've just sold the house, and we didn't tell the kids about it. We had 3 kids at the time in elementary school. Didn't tell the kids. It it was just a wild wild time. And, came for the interview, was called to Bethel, and went and met with the president as part of the interview process, and he said, what do you think?
Anne:He said, I have a question for you. What do you think of unplanned young mothers that have unplanned pregnancies? What do you what's your observation? Because that obviously happens a great deal, several times at, with college students. And I said, I thought I'm getting ready to blow this interview.
Anne:I said, well, I'll tell you the truth. That is one place that I think the church is blowing it extremely in a large way. We are blowing it. We talk pro life, pro life, pro life, and yet when a young lady is found to have an unplanned pregnancy, we tend to shutter them and or, whoosh them off, and they have a private little abortion or or whatever the case may be. But you don't want to embarrass the family.
Anne:And what are we gonna do with this child and blah blah blah blah blah. It's a lot more accepted today than it was, say, 20 years ago, unplanned pregnancies. And so we I said this is one place that I think the church is blowing it. We've, if I was a chaplain, I'd say, well, make your peace with God and and then let me throw you a baby shower, you know? So let's let's get ready for our baby.
Anne:This is an area that I think that the church is blowing it. And as an institution of higher learning, I think we could do a great deal to help her, assist her, and tell her you need an education now more than ever. And so let's, well, let's see what we can do. And, so he looked at me and he said during the interview, he said, I could not agree with you more. I could not agree with you more.
Anne:And, he said, okay. And I could tell the whole tenor of the the interview changed. And I think I got hired because of my answer to that one question and what I thought of of unplanned pregnancies. So, but yeah. So he hired me.
Anne:Imhof hired me, and then he left. We had I had it took several months. We wanted our kids to finish the school year. And so kids finished the school year. We headed out, and had to sell well, we'd already sold our house.
Anne:So we moved to Mackenzie and got the job here and found a house from Cordell Smith, who was a Cumberland Presbyterian minister. Yeah. And we bought his old house. And,
T.J.:I know where you live.
Anne:Yes. Yes.
T.J.:Where you live.
Anne:Okay. Yeah. We live here we've lived here 25 years. So it's it's been nice been nice.
T.J.:When you became chaplain, did you enter into that role? Did you have personal goals, goals for the school, ambitions, things that you wanted to accomplish as a chaplain as kind of the spiritual guide for an entire student body and its faculty and staff?
Anne:Yes and no. I did the the bible study, experiencing God, which is the Southern Baptist convention, convention publication and, but it changed my paradigm. It changed everything. The way I look at goals and my ambition for the university. One thing I do maintain is that Bethel is a Christian university.
Anne:I I I'm I'm adamant on that. We are a Christian university. And other people will argue, well, no. We're more liberal arts. I'm like, no.
Anne:We're a Christian university. And every so often, I'll hear a mom or a parent or something like that is, I heard a 4 letter word in the dorms, and I just can't and that happened at a Christian university too. I just can't believe that. To which I have to say, goodness gracious. You know?
Anne:It's not Eden. Alright? You know? The sin the fall happened, and we all have this problem called sin. So, you know okay.
Anne:But we are a Christian university. For 25 years now, I've sent out a a daily devotion, and it is unapologetically I send out basically the daily lectionary, and I send out a devotion of that I pick up someplace. Most of them are sermon illustrations to tell the truth, and so I send those out. But goals, no. I don't have actually goals.
Anne:Experiencing God says, God is always at work and God is always moving and is active. And our role as leaders within various situations is to not come up with our own ambition and then to pray. Oh, Jesus. I want you to here's a campaign that we've started, and here's something we've started. And I want you, God, to come bless what we're doing.
Anne:It's you know, if I'm a servant of the Lord, the role of a servant is to simply look at the master and simply say, you know, what you want me to do? What I'm yours. I am yours. So he is moving, shaking, and, very active in students' lives and in different departments. And so my job becomes to look at people and to say, where do you see the hand of God moving?
Anne:And I do that several times during the course of the semester. Where do you see the hand of the Lord moving? And at that point, go jump in. And I see my role is more of a grant writer, if you will, if you use that paradigm of my job is to to come to see where the holy spirit is moving and then come and jump in and support it and say, let's go. Let's go.
Anne:Let me see, if I can help you from an administrative side and help you with a little bit of money and see where the holy spirit is moving instead of saying I have a goal or I have roles or I have, I mean, I have some that I have to put on paper Mhmm. To, fulfill objectives, but, I don't pay attention to them. I'm I'm always like, okay. What are we gonna do? I don't know.
Anne:Garrett Burns is works with me. The 2 of us are the chaplains. And I'm like, okay, Garrett. Let's come up with some goals for the next 5 years. So we have to put something down on paper.
Anne:But he understands that as well and is on board with we just see where the Lord is moving. It's, for example, FCA, Fellowship of Christian Athletes, is an organization that I have seen very active on campus and then very, basically, nonexistent on campus. And a lot of it depends on the leadership within the student body. Mhmm. Sometimes a student will come from a high school that had a very active FCA, and they are a leader, And God is calling them into some form of ministry, if not FCA ministry.
Anne:And so they will come. There, have a charismatic personality, and FCA will just boom and grow tremendously. And in points like that, I'm like, I started going to the meetings, and I talked to them and and say, how can I be of assistance to you? And let me help you promote FCA. So, but as far as as goals, no.
Anne:Actually, I just don't have that many, to be honest.
T.J.:You went as a chaplain with a pretty open mind. That's what I was trying to get at in terms of but it wasn't your first time at Bethel because you were a student graduated. And a graduate from there. So
Anne:Yes. Yes. I came there as a a student back in 1980. My, parents had just gotten a divorce, and I said that I went to Bethel to heal. I flunked out of Western Kentucky University, basically.
Anne:And right before I flunked out, I applied to Bethel so I could get in, before my GPA plummeted.
T.J.:You had the intuition to Yes. Somewhat plan.
Anne:The the the the writing was on the wall, but, you know, this was not going well. And, I my family was in just just falling apart. My father was also a common Presbyterian minister. So the whole church was involved. When you're living in a fishbowl and your parents get divorced, it it's traumatic.
T.J.:Yeah. This is not a private No. Dissolving of a family.
Anne:No. No. It was very public. And there were lots of ramifications of that. And so I started drinking extremely heavily and, to the point that I became an alcoholic and am in recovery.
Anne:Mhmm. And things got really bad.
T.J.:If you don't mind lingering here for a moment just to just to help. So you're you're 18, 19 years old.
Anne:Right.
T.J.:And alcohol was what for you at that time?
Anne:Well, the legal drinking age was 18 at the time, which didn't help. So I could, you know, have all I wanted. Many of us did. And, liquor at the time was just a way to it was just a numbing factor.
T.J.:Related to your family situation?
Anne:My family's yes. Yes. Plus, I just like it. Mhmm. I mean, I'll be honest with you.
Anne:I am I am a wino. I love the taste of wine. I love it. I am just yeah. Yeah.
Anne:I, what I used to do was buy those they still sell them. Those they're square boxes of wine that you can have, and they got little spouts on them. I love those things because you couldn't tell how much I drunk. You know?
T.J.:Oh, that's right. Because because
Anne:it's hidden.
T.J.:Yeah. It's hidden behind cardboard.
Anne:Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so I could just put one of those in the fridge and and drink, and, you couldn't tell how much it had gone down. So, I didn't sober up until I was 30.
Anne:But I I used to to drink, and it was it was I I loved it. I loved it. I loved getting a buzz and and seeing where the buzz would go. And, I was a nice drunk. Basically, just slept a lot and was lots of fun and love the taste.
T.J.:Were you a functioning alcoholic? Yes. And I guess that question can kinda vary over the years. So you were able to do both Yes. With the exception of school, I guess
Anne:Well, yeah. I I I did. I just I wasn't ready. I wasn't. I wasn't mature enough to handle school.
Anne:I just plus my parents, as I said, I walked around, flunked out of Western Kentucky University and came to transferred to Bethel and used to walk the campus at night and just cry and cry and cry and cry and cry and cry. My sister fell apart in a worse way than I did, and it it was just a mess. My my my family was a mess. And, Was
T.J.:this a surprise to you?
Anne:No. No. No. No. No.
Anne:It was it was like when you're watching somebody who's terminally ill, slowly die, And you watch them and you watch them, and you know it's coming.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anne:You know it's you know, this is this does not have a happy ending, and, they are going to die. And then you finally get that phone call, they died. Or you're there at the bedside, and they take their last breath and you go, it's still a stab in the heart. Mhmm. And,
T.J.:So it's a it's a death, but not necessarily a physical death as in the loss of a human being to where they're still there.
Anne:It's a loss of
T.J.:But it's a death nonetheless.
Anne:Yes. It is. It's it's death of a couple, of of a marriage, of a unit, of, a unit that has died.
T.J.:During that time, what besides alcohol provided you with healing? What was your escape?
Anne:What alcohol? What if I not saw? A lot of but it was interesting in that during that time, I got called into the ministry. Okay. I've always been a bible reader.
Anne:I've just I've always just been fascinated with scripture, and it's just it intrigues me. And so every day, I'm I'm just in the scriptures. I just I need to even on vacation, even I just I need to to hear. Now I have an audio Bible and I listen to daily bible readings. And, I love the Bible in 1 year, those books.
Anne:So, one day, I was reading Exodus 3, and that was 19 at the time. And Exodus 3 just started jumping off the page. It's, Moses God's call to Moses in the wilderness. And I just heard the Lord say, you're Moses. You're it.
T.J.:And An audible voice?
Anne:No. No. No. No. Just the scripture kept jumping out at me, just jumping out at me, and I kept I kept reading it and just going.
Anne:You know, it was I just kept being drawn back to that story of Exodus 3. And so I, read it in the burning bush, and I didn't see a burning bush, but I heard the Lord call and say, this is, what you are called to do. At the time, I was playing I love sociology, and I was playing with being a social worker and, was looking at that possibility. But, art and actress, 1 theater theater major. I was looking at one of those 2 majors, and, I was just being called into the ministry.
Anne:And everybody was all full of, that is gonna make your daddy so happy. Oh, that is so wonderful that you're going into the ministry, that God's called you into the ministry. The tribe of Levi. I mean, y'all are just called. And I was like, first of all, my father looked at me and said, no.
Anne:I don't think you should go into the ministry. I don't think you're the right personality. I don't think no. No. No.
Anne:No. No. No. No. No.
Anne:No. No. No. No. No.
Anne:I don't see it. I don't think you're called into the ministry. And besides that, I don't want my daughter to go into it. And second of all, I had never actually met a minister, a female minister. The first sermon I ever preached was the first sermon I ever heard from a female minister.
T.J.:What did you think about that? What what did you think about the first female you heard preach?
Anne:She's pretty lousy. I mean, it's a pretty lousy sermon as most most preachers' first sermons are. Yeah.
T.J.:I set you up for that one. Yeah. Yeah. It had double meaning. I just wanted to see how you would react to it.
Anne:I I didn't, I get I had to I just knew that I was called to do it. I knew I wasn't very good at it, but I was I was still called to do it. Well, let me
T.J.:let me catch up with you from because we we jumped from you reading Exodus chapter 3 and then to your dad's response to your calling in the ministry. Was there any kinda, time gap in there or was it
Anne:Yeah. I guess there there's always, you know, different different time gaps in there. But I finally looked, I didn't actually pursue my masters until I was 34 and was married with children and, had a mortgage in the whole 9 yards, was living in Cookeville, Tennessee. And I looked at and my father was still adamant about, no. You are not called into the ministry.
Anne:You shouldn't do this, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Despite the fact I graduated from Bethel with a religion major. And,
T.J.:Not sociology, not theater.
Anne:Not sociology, not theater. No. No. Religion. And, because I loved it, and I was just being called.
Anne:So at 34, I was a stay at home mom, doctor's wife, trying to play that role. And, my father, at 34 years old, I finally said, I've got to go into the ministry. I am just miserable. And my father objected again, and I said, look, I got a mortgage. I got 3 kids.
Anne:I got a husband. I'm not doing this for you. This has nothing to do with you whatsoever. This is between me and God and I don't care what you think, daddy. I'm called.
Anne:And, he kind of shut shut up after that. So I mean, I love my father but, you know, he, he he he's with the Lord now and he knows the truth. So
T.J.:What was his resistance? Was it women in ministry? Was it how difficult difficult the the the role is, the vocation is? It has tough times to it.
Anne:Yes. It does. All the above. All the above. And, lots of women in ministry are I sometimes call them feminazis.
Anne:Or they have they have another agenda. Girl power or I want to prove that I can do this or I want to, you know, whatever. And, they have lots of lots of axes to grind and stuff like that. And truth, ma'am, I just love Jesus. I just, you know, I just I just I love Jesus, and I gave him my life.
Anne:And I said, you know, here am I, send me. And, this is where he sent me. And this is where I feel both my husband and I feel like we're called to be and we're called to stay. And so we're here at this time and at this place at Bethel University. And, we are both very now we are both very active within the university system, and, this is just where I'm supposed to be.
Anne:And I gave, as I mentioned, I I given control of my life over. So here am I.
T.J.:Some would find giving over the life and and some of the openness and leading to the Holy Spirit that you have would find that, freeing. And others would probably find that terrifying, just that
Anne:I'm going on the terrifying end.
T.J.:Innate sense of like a sense of control, You know?
Anne:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I find it more on the terrifying end.
Anne:It's because you don't know. You you don't you don't know. It's I don't I I like urban areas. I like living in in cities, and I like,
T.J.:You're not living in one now.
Anne:No. I am not. This is a town Walmart left,
T.J.:if
Anne:that tells you anything. Okay? So, no. I am not living in 1. And, Mackenzie ain't sexy.
Anne:It really is not sexy. But I'm supposed to be here. I mean, what what do I say? I'd I'm I'm, I'm supposed to be here. And my husband and I have both, approximately, I'd say about 15 years ago, our kids left home, were getting married and establishing families of their own.
Anne:And, we paid off the mortgage and thanks be to God. And we were saying, okay, the house is paid off. We're out of debt. We're the kids, have left home. They've gotten their education.
Anne:What if we do something different now? What if we we were kinda set up to be medical missionaries? We thought about that. You know? What if we go someplace and become medical missionaries or something like that?
Anne:And, we got on our knees and prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed. And the Lord said, in no uncertain terms, you stay put right where you are. You are called into to be at McKinsey, Tennessee. This is where you are called. It is a very poor county and, in rural West Tennessee, and we're called to be here.
Anne:It's 17% illiteracy. Right? I learned those sad statistics recently, and, only 11 I think 11% have a college degree. It's it's very, very, very sad. And so I became the chair of the local United Way agency.
Anne:My husband became a vice president of the College of Health Sciences, and so we now have a nursing department and a PA department school, and, he was fundamental in, instrumental in establishing both of those and has continued to work as an emergency room physician on the side. So, it's it's all part of God's plan, and we are supposed to to be here. We don't have now we don't have any family here anymore, and the kids have left and gone. And we're still here. But we tried to leave and when we keep getting the Lord saying, no.
Anne:No. Stay put. You're mine. This is where I call you work. So it ain't sexy, but it's it's home.
Anne:Yeah. It's home.
T.J.:Yeah. Wherever we plant our feet and lay our head Right. Can be our home.
Anne:Exactly.
T.J.:Even McKinsey.
Anne:Even Mackenzie.
T.J.:Let's talk about a profession of faith. So you obviously grew up in a Christian home, a Christian church.
Anne:And I did. I grew up in a very progressive. It was progressive when progressive wasn't cool. I grew up in a very progressive home. And, looking back, both my parents were universalist, basically.
Anne:And one time I can I can say that in retrospect? My parents had my father had a revival at church, and I will always be grateful of this. A young lady named Susan talked to was talking to the young people. I was 12 years old and I said, she looked at me and said, are you a Christian? Same question I now ask people.
Anne:And she said, are you a Christian? I said, well, my daddy's the pastor here. And she looked at me and said, so what? So what? And I was like, oh, you wanna know about me?
Anne:Oh, me. And I wasn't used to that, people talking about me. I was just used to being Alfred Bennett's daughter, you know, the reverend's daughter and being a PK. And, I said, no. And she said, let me explain.
Anne:She basically explained the gospel to me. And she said, do you want to ask Christ to come and be your lord and savior? And I said, yes. I do. And, I remember walking the aisle, tremendous.
Anne:It was a wonderful experience. It was just so fabulous. And that I will always be grateful for her that she she did that to me. She didn't just let me hide behind my daddy. And, just like now, I won't let students hide behind their parents or their grandparents and demand that they give account of their feelings towards Christ.
T.J.:Yes. Yes. One's beliefs, one's faith. My last guest was Ellen Hudson Clark and Yes. She spoke highly of you in terms of when she was going through a season of change, the 2 of you had a conversation, that helped discern what steps maybe what path that she ended up taking on.
T.J.:It's a unique role that you have in terms of chaplaincy of being able to walk side by side with people as they are seeking, their identity, the meaning of life, faith, relationships, careers. There's so much going on. Yeah. All of the above. And it must be a privilege to be able to do that.
Anne:It is.
T.J.:So looking back over the past 25 years, for those who don't run into young adults on a regular basis, what would you want what do you want people to know about this generation that is growing into adulthood and taking on careers for the first time, forming families, what inspires you about it? What concerns do you have? Tell me what you're you're seeing and hearing.
Anne:I don't I don't tend. I see individuals.
T.J.:And I'm asking you to paint with, like, broad Yeah. Broad brush.
Anne:Yeah. Very broad brush. It breaks my heart of the homes that they come from. Just breaks my heart. Some of the situations that I've had students tell me about from their families just are heartrending.
Anne:And socioeconomically, we're not well educated. We have a lot of students that they're the first person in their family to attend college. And we've had student we've even had a student come and bring his clothes in a, garbage bag.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anne:And didn't even have a suitcase. That's some some sad stuff. Foster home kids. We've had children's home students. Just students that come from some just horrendous backgrounds.
Anne:People are people, and people are basically the same. I mean, back then, now, I mean, you know, we all laugh, cry, love, want to be loved, have have a longing and a heart for Christ whether we know it or not. So and a lot of my work is the leaning of the Holy spirit. My prayer every morning is, lord, here I am. Use me as you will.
Anne:Do with me as you will. Lead me. Guide me. Show me what you want me to do. And, he and he does.
Anne:I mean, he really does that, and it's it's a wild ride. I never my theme song is Paul McCartney's baby. I'm amazed. You know, I am just amazed at where I've ended up and and who I've ended up with and what I've come through. And and I'm just kinda sorta going through this.
Anne:I am a servant of the the Lord, and it's fascinating, the places he's taken me. Mhmm. And, here I am. Here I am. And, I've loved it.
Anne:I've for the most part, I've loved it.
T.J.:I like to ask, guests and I don't I don't do this every time, but often our conversations are a journey, and we spend much time in the past, who we were and who we've become and kind of that journey. And and it's set up that way. I like it that way. Sure. I also like for us to to grapple with the question of where we are experiencing god's presence today.
T.J.:So, Anne, where are you experiencing god's presence in your life today? We spent some time in the past and but there are people in this beautiful world that we are a part of, but they're hurting.
Anne:Oh, they are.
T.J.:And they're and they're not searching for answers in the past. They're seeking for guidance and understanding in the present. And I think as Christians, it is our responsibility to bring the presence of Christ into the presence. One way to do that is by talking and where we are able to see God working in our lives, God's presence, God's blessing today.
Anne:I love the church. It is in decline, but, that's our fault, not the Lord's. And it will it will prevail. I mean, Christ's church will not cease to exist. I hear doomsayers all around, you know, saying, it's gonna die.
Anne:It's like, no. It's the bride of Christ. It's not gonna die. It'll just grow someplace else like in Asia and Africa. But, it's it's not growing here.
Anne:As far as I just I I still get into the word, the word of God. Another opportunity that I've had at Bethel is to teach, introduction, understanding the new and old testament. And so I actually teach 3 classes of that, which is a requirement for our freshman students. And, that's always a hoot. I love doing that.
Anne:And, lots of fun. Lots of fun. Lots of fun.
T.J.:What makes it what makes that fun?
Anne:Just to Well, the challenge is okay. We've got students that are southern baptist and can quote the bible chapter and verse better than I can. I mean, they got it down, you know, they they they've gone through every sword drill and they've they've, you know, directed VBS themselves, you know, they've I mean, they've done it all. I've got those students and yet I've got the Iman son who, who comes to the bible and says, I'm not Christian. You know?
Anne:I'm I'm a devout Muslim. I but I've got to take this class because it's a requirement here, and I just wanna play football here at Bethel University, otherwise known as soccer. So I, I'm like, oh, I don't have to get through. And the the challenge is that when a student comes in and takes college algebra, they've had algebra 12 in high school. So they know the basics of algebra.
Anne:Why there are letters in the middle of these formulas. That's not the truth. That's not what we have with, as far as it goes, with
T.J.:with
Anne:the bible. I've got students who will say things like, yeah, I dated a Christian once. Yeah, I I went to a wedding, a Christian wedding one time. And so I know nothing about the faith. So it's a challenge to present the gospel and to just get into the text and present it in such a way that it doesn't bore the students who grew up in the church, but it doesn't it's not over the heads of the students that are not Christian and have never had a Bible before and they're with they're reading it all for the first time.
Anne:So, I got an email recently from a student who said, okay, alright. Look, I'm not a Christian. I'm taking your class and I'm scared to death. I have a 3 point something GPA, and I don't wanna take this class, but I gotta take it in order to graduate. And I am scared to death, and I said, it's fine, baby.
Anne:You just read what I tell you to read and come to class and you'll make a you'll you'll make fine grades. I mean,
T.J.:You have to appreciate the honesty and transparency. The yeah. I mean, that you know, those are those are the fun students because they've kinda laid to bear what's before them.
Anne:Yeah. Exactly. And they're reading it and and sometimes reading the scriptures, and they get into it like I do. They read them and go, he thinks it's alright. This is alright.
Anne:It was Jesus' character. He's he's to begin with the gospels and go, this guy is fabulous. The majority of people that are interviewed today say they love Jesus. It's his disciples that drive people crazy. It's not it's not the man.
Anne:It's just us that that drive you crazy.
T.J.:So so those intro biblical courses, I would think it would be challenging as the instructor to that interplay of academic work and yet it is still it's still a thought process of evangelism well, both evangelism and discipleship.
Anne:Exactly.
T.J.:How do you do that interplay with theater? I I hope you're answering with theater just because that's your background.
Anne:Well, just basically, it speaks for itself if you just read the text. Plus, you've got to consider to the students that aren't Christian, I'd say, okay. Look. This is not I'm not trying to be an evangelical and I'm not trying to convert you to Christianity, although if you just cut side the comb, it's, you know, wonderful. But I'm not trying but this is the most important piece of literature in Western civilization and it has had a profound effect upon many people's lives.
Anne:It's the bestseller of all time, and so it's good for us to read this piece of literature even if you just look at it like you should know as an educated person who William Shakespeare is, you know. You should know as an educated person living in American society, the good Samaritan, the story of the good Samaritan.
T.J.:A
Anne:parable, just a story that Jesus tells. We have good Samaritan laws on the books, that are based on the teachings of Christ. And so I I make the argument that this is important piece of literature that we don't read the entire old testament in the course of a semester, but we do read the entire new testament educated person, you need to have some familiarity with this piece of literature and what it says. So, and, you know, to students that grew up on King James, I'm like, honey, honey, honey, honey, honey, come on out. You know?
Anne:I promise you God is not gonna strike you dead if you open up an NIV bible or New Living Translation or NRSV. I promise you God is not going to strike you dead for that. Maybe something else, but not that. So
T.J.:I guess I was getting at more as in the the potential is there in those intro classes where you have that wide variety of people in in the approach specifically to the Christian faith, where it would be really easy and we'll take it from the perspective of a student for this to become an academic exercise.
Anne:Sure. Sure.
T.J.:And it is. Yeah. But it also isn't. And that interplay is a challenge. Yeah.
T.J.:I think
Anne:for for
T.J.:the instructor.
Anne:The importance of the word. I mean, I don't I don't have to really do much there. The word speaks for itself.
T.J.:Mhmm. The
Anne:word of the lord is alive and active and it, that's the work of the holy spirit. And, God, I don't have to hold somebody down and and beat it into them. You know? I guess I don't want to anyway. It's ridiculous.
T.J.:I didn't know
Anne:where you were
T.J.:I didn't know where you were going with that. I was like
Anne:Oh, yeah. I'm just I'm just I don't know. But, no. I don't I don't I I wear that's the work of the Holy Spirit.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anne:That's the work of the Holy Spirit is to open up the word. And, like I said, so many people that have think they know that a lot of students also think that they know the Bible and they really don't. And, very, very, very few students really have a grasp on scripture and have read it all and read have really done an active bible study, or they've done it in specific parts, but they haven't read it in its totality. So that's it's important to do, it's important to do and I challenge students to do that and see how they come out. Now, if the Holy Spirit speaks to them while they're reading, no.
Anne:I imagine that happening. I just smile and grin and go, mhmm, I know it's pretty amazing, isn't it? It's like, you know, anytime, I'll never forget, I came to college. I'd never had a sociology class in my life. And I took my first class in sociology, and I loved it.
Anne:I was just like, this stuff is fascinating. This stuff this is the way I look at the world. I look at groups of people. I I don't I just look at I love demographics and and looking at at this demographics and that demographics and and I've always thought this way and I took my first class in sociology. I was like a duck being put in the water.
Anne:And the same thing with scripture and the same thing with our faith in the Lord is so often, I find students if I just expose them to the word in a decent translation, a lot of times they've just fallen in love with it themselves, and they'll just go, this is good. I mean, this is good. So I do have to do things, like, occasionally throw in a pop quiz to make sure that they've read it, you know, so they don't get cocky or anything. But so, I mean, the the Lord speaks for himself.
T.J.:Let's talk about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. What do you think that we as a denomination that we're doing really well, and what do you think that we are missing?
Anne:We're the time of crisis. We have an we have a new civil war going on. It's, dealing with sexuality. This is I don't know what we're doing well right now. I really can't say.
Anne:Things are great at Bethel. I just wrote that it off the board at MTS and, you know, the seminary is alive and and that's good. Bethel is a shining star within the denomination, whether it knows it or not. I think that I'm here. I'm a point I'm a shoot an arrow at you.
Anne:I think the denominational head has lost touch with the majority of the folks within the denomination. Just the the the average run-in the mill Kentucky farmer's wife, you know, that's and the different people within the denomination. I think that the center has lost is living in an ivory tower and has has lost. So I commend what you're doing. That's that's good good for you.
Anne:Kudos reaching out to different folks.
T.J.:Well, elaborate some more just, in terms of the denominational head and the average Cumberland Presbyterian. So what would bring, from your perspective, if those are 2 extremes, how do you bring those 2 extremes closer together?
Anne:Have some diversity within the center. I don't see diversity.
T.J.:In in what way?
Anne:Bring some extreme, conservatives into the to the center. Theologically? Theologically. Yes. Yes.
Anne:Of course. Some the center has always had a reputation for being extremely progressive, and I see it as being so. It mirrors our society in that we're very divided right now and, very splintered. And I do see the people in Memphis as being extremely progressive and having a lens upon which they look at the average laity within the denomination. And there needs to be diversity within the center.
Anne:Lots of as as we have seen within the moderators that we have elected recently. They're going from 1 we're going from 1 end of the pendulum to the other, And the moderators that are elected, they're they're all over the place, which is the way the the denomination is. So yeah.
T.J.:To push back a little Yeah. The denominational center isn't the head of the church in our in our form of well, theologically Touche. But also from a form of government as well.
Anne:True. Very true. That the the the power base yes. Yes. You're you're right there.
Anne:You're you're right. The power base lies in Presbyterian. That's our form of government. That is that is it. But and I guess it is easy to to look at MTS and and I mean, MTS, to look at the center and say, those liberals in Memphis, you know, they just
T.J.:Well, it does come with the territory.
Anne:Yes. It does.
T.J.:It does come with the territory for sure.
Anne:It does. But, yes. And the power's in the presbytery, but it'll be interesting where we are right now to see what the presbytery is due this next year, with our different elections and things we've got to decide. It will be interesting to say where where things up, but I think we're very divided right now. And, it's
T.J.:Any input on, oh, how do I word this? Lessening the divide or connecting the denomination in new ways or old ways. How, you would use the term like civil war Mhmm. Bit extreme, but to run with that No.
Anne:I think oh, no. I don't I don't think it's extreme at all. No. No. No.
Anne:No. No. No. The issue of sexuality is is very dividing and and and,
T.J.:So in in terms of healing those divides, I'm searching for words
Anne:here. Yeah. Healing. Our our unity comes in Christ. It it Christ has got to be foremost.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anne:And he's got to be it can't be Christ and this or that. It's it's Christ above all, in all, through all. We've got to to look to Christ and simply see rather progressive or extremely conservative, to see all people as children of the living God and to be to be tolerant.
T.J.:We can come back to this. We've kind of lived we we've lived in, shortcomings and what the church is missing.
Anne:Mhmm.
T.J.:Let's go let let's go to okay. We've, we've pulled up some of our areas where we certainly need room for improvement. Can you think of any areas of like okay. Yeah. You had mentioned Bethel, but specifically as a denomination, areas that, you are proud to be able to say the Cumberland Presbyterian Church is this and then that this is falling to blame?
Anne:We've ordained women for a long time, which I appreciate very much.
T.J.:Yeah.
Anne:However, I've got to I am I am I'll I'll show my cards here. The denomination hurt me in a very real way, and I've yet to forgive it. When I graduated, I graduated in 97 from MTS from seminary. Right? Graduated 1997 from MTS.
Anne:I graduated with honors. I was in my first marriage. I had 3 kids, and my husband and I both said, we'll go wherever the Lord leads us. We'll go internationally. We'll go anywhere that the Lord leads us.
Anne:And my PIF, my, resume, basically, went out to every church that was looking. I believe Mike Sharp told me at the time it was, like, 64. 64 churches. And I never got a phone call. I never got I never got anything.
Anne:There was no email at the time, and so I I would have had to gotten a phone call. I I got nothing. And, Bob Imhof was not Cumberland Presbyterian. The man who hired me from to come to Bethel was not Cumberland Presbyterian. I found acceptance within the PCUSA church.
Anne:I had students at MTS that were telling me all the time. They said, come on to the United Methodist, honey. Oh, let me introduce you to my bishop. He would absolutely love you. You'd be great.
Anne:And I never got a phone call since I had been chaplain at Bethlehem University. I now pastor a church, but I've never gotten calls from other I mean, I pastor a small rural church that can only afford to pay somebody for pulpit supply. But I haven't gotten a call from a church of a major size who is who says, yeah. We're interested in you being our pastor. And would you leave Bethel in order to come move here to pastor our church?
Anne:Now I'll take 75% of the blame and say it's my personality. It's me. Okay? I'll take the majority of the blame on myself and say, it's me. But we talk we talk a talk that is you know, we were the 2nd denomination in the United States to ordain women.
Anne:Great. How are you treating them today? Are you promoting them? Are you are are they filling your pastures like the United Methodist or the PCUSA? No.
Anne:We're not. We're not. And it's not happening. And so like I said, I've got a that broke my heart when that happened. I mean, that broke my heart, and it still hurts.
Anne:And it still hurts that in 25 years, I haven't gotten a call from a full time church saying, would you be interested in coming here? I've got my. I've got like I said, I'm in my first marriage. I pay my bills. I don't I don't you know, I I let I love Jesus Christ.
Anne:I love Jesus Christ with everything I have in me. That's the love of my life, and I don't I don't get it. And that I've got so I'm not real pro CP, and that's why I enjoy being a chaplain because I get to work with all denominations.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anne:And
T.J.:Alright. So thought experiment.
Anne:Okay.
T.J.:Obviously, I I cannot go back even as an evil denominational employee Yeah. And and alleviate the ignoring of your gifts and your desire to serve at a local capacity at that time, in local congregation. But looking into the present and into the future, what could we do we as an entire church in terms of make it easier for the next woman, for the next young person who has a burning desire to serve at a local level just like you did and still do. Not that I have that power, but if we all come together
Anne:Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah.
Anne:Promote. Promote. Promote. And men have to do it.
T.J.:More than women?
Anne:More than women. Yes. More than because men hold the power within the denomination within the within presbyteries and within the church. Pres I mean, look at your your leadership within
T.J.:In terms of numbers.
Anne:In yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As far as as ratio goes. Considering that you've gotta figure it's about 5050.
Anne:If not, it's like 60% women, to promote promote women and and that would that would if somebody would've would've I just would've appreciated somebody's support.
T.J.:There's something something to be said for affirmation, you know, an acknowledgment. Yes. Maybe acknowledgment is even better. Yes. Just the acknowledgment that you have gifts for ministry.
T.J.:And those gifts may not work in congregation a, but at least congregation a acknowledged it and but they may work over in congregation b.
Anne:Right. Just to get an interview.
T.J.:Yeah.
Anne:Just to get an interview. I mean, just just somebody saying within presbytery, have you considered when I send students out, you know, different people call me and say, I need to have a pulpit filled on such and such date. Do you have a candidate? Yeah. I, you know, I send my my girls out there.
Anne:My ladies are going. You know? And, yeah, I I did give the number of the guys as well, but I don't I don't I don't discriminate. So but, but I'm like, yeah. Yeah.
Anne:I want you I'm gonna send you, both progressive and conservative, students, and I'm gonna send you, male as well as female. And this is just our our students and this is where they stand and this is where they they are and let you get a wide variety of our different students. So just get you know, it would have helped if somebody, if I could have just have gotten an interview. Mhmm. If if if somebody could say could be an advocate for somebody coming out and saying churches that are looking and saying, have you interviewed a woman?
Anne:Somebody who's who's who has the opportunity to speak into that situation. There's an old saying, if you're not for me, you're against me. That's very true with women in the ministry if you're not.
T.J.:Well, let me make this observation and I don't know you hardly at all. You you're well, after today, you're more than acquaintance. But prior to our conversation today but as an outsider observer and as a fellow Cumberland Presbyterian and knowing this about you, my observation has been is maybe you have taken that pain and that disappointment And you have certainly used it for good in places like providing opportunities for, young people and then even up to around my age, an encouragement for ministry, Ministry as a vocational path, recognizing the gifts that maybe you might not have been in such tune to except for this hard path of lack of acknowledgment and affirmation.
Anne:Make lemonade out of lemons.
T.J.:Well, that was short version. I was trying to make it.
Anne:Yeah. No. No. No. Thank you.
Anne:And I have had been responsible for 3 young men who were not Cumberland Presbyterian, who who were not Cumberland Presbyterians when they were students at Bethel, who have become Cumberland Presbyterians, have since become. 1 was my son-in-law, who is a young man who who came and is a student and ran away with my daughter. And, you know, and I I I love him dearly. But he was he was Southern Baptist. I mean, he was he was devout Southern Baptist, and he met my daughter and, now he's, Corey Cummings
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anne:And is now my, my son-in-law. Another one is Cliff Varna, is a young man that, when they were students here at Bethel, and they were kinda sort of fishing around. And I was like, oh, why don't you? Come on. Our denomination's searching.
Anne:Come on, baby. And, I would send especially Corey, I would send him out to different churches to preach on Sunday morning. And I told him, I said, look. You bring up baptism, I'm a shoot you. Okay?
Anne:The Bible is full of plenty of other topics. Just don't deal with believers baptism. Alright? Just just an infant baptism. I just I just don't wanna hear it.
Anne:You can preach about anything else besides that. And, he was always like, okay. Alright. Mhmm. Okay.
Anne:So he sent me out, I I sent him out rather, to go preach, at different churches. So covering that topic.
T.J.:Well, I I wonder if you have, again, taken that experience, it's still living with you, and you have prepared young women and men in terms of the hardships, which you know by firsthand that come with ministry. I'm not excusing them. I'm certainly not defending them. Yeah. But there are hardships that come with this vocation.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Anne:Mhmm. Yeah. There definitely are. There definitely are. Loneliness and isolation and
T.J.:Probably one of the loneliest, if not the loneliest profession in the United States, maybe in the world. And it seems so ironic to put it at the top of the category when you are surrounded by people
Anne:By people.
T.J.:All the time.
Anne:The time. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Anne:And yet you are always always there's there's people are yes. Yeah. I I guess. Either you understand or you don't. Yes.
Anne:It is extremely lonely and isolating and yet surrounded. What's the old thing about being out in the middle of the ocean and water water everywhere and not a drop to drink And wanting to to find a friend, it's it's difficult. It's extremely difficult. So
T.J.:I wanna ask you one more conversation before we wrap it up. What 2 books do you recommend for somebody who's listening to this podcast? Besides the Bible
Anne:The Bible definitely.
T.J.:And the confession of faith.
Anne:Of course. Yes. It's good stuff. It's good stuff.
T.J.:Yes. But
Anne:It really is.
T.J.:They they are, but let let's assume that those are already in the position of whoever is listening
Anne:Yes.
T.J.:And on top of. K. You've got those on your desk. You've got those on your table. What else would you recommend?
Anne:Mere Christianity.
T.J.:Mhmm. CS Lewis. CS Lewis. K.
Anne:Definitely. But let me do 3. Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. Every Good Endeavor or The Reason For God by Tim Keller.
T.J.:Okay.
Anne:He just recently passed on. Love Tim Keller. Love Tim Keller. Didn't agree with him about his view on women, but, you know oh, but what a what? Oh.
Anne:Uh-oh. What? It just the way. Oh, he spoke to me, and there's just just so much. The Reason For God by Tim Keller, in every good endeavor.
Anne:And if you're not familiar with that work, it's it's about seeing your vocation and seeing your work as worship and seeing everything you do as every good endeavor to the glory of God. So that's that's another one. And then probably the shack.
T.J.:Okay. Yeah.
Anne:The shack simply because I would give that to students and sometimes before the movie came out especially, I would give that to students to read sometimes for extra credit or or just for different I'd I'd give my work study would come in and have nothing to do. I was like, here, read a book. And, while you're while you're sitting here working for me, and, I give them the shack to read and, simply because it expands I always ask students, did it expand your view of God? Has your view of God changed? And they always come back saying, oh, yeah.
Anne:Oh, yeah. I used to see that god is this Gandalf figure, you know, in Lord of the Rings, with a long beard and, you know, kind of ZZ top sort of fella. But, you
T.J.:know With the eyeglass or the sunglasses or without the sunglasses?
Anne:Yeah. Yeah. With. Definitely with. Okay.
Anne:That glory is hard to handle. Yeah. So but, I would definitely, say that because it expands our view of God and it does an excellent job of talking about grace and forgiveness and within a fictional setting.
T.J.:Yeah. You have a novel. You have an argument for an inner argument, inner voice argument for Christian faith through CS Lewis. And I'm less familiar with the 2 Tim Keller books, more of a vocational calling to ministry, I gather for me. Yes.
T.J.:Yes. Okay. You've
Anne:covered it. You've
T.J.:Well, thank you. If somebody if somebody can't find something in the midst of those books, then Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you should watch videos instead of read. I don't know.
Anne:YouTube videos because everything's true.
T.J.:Anne, thank you for giving me your afternoon.
Anne:Thank you. Thank you so much. You're you're very good at what you do.
T.J.:Thank you.
Anne:Asking questions, and this is this has been a very good experience. So thank you very much.
T.J.:Thank you for allowing me to inquire and get to know more about you. I love hearing God touching people's lives and in that journey and through our reflection, might not even know it in moments of clarity. The clarity comes later at times, but if, as Cumberland Presbyterians, if we're not articulating our faith, whatever language we use Go on. Then others may not be able to hear or understand the good news that we proclaim. And so by hearing it and by doing it, then we we get the best of both worlds because we get to hear other people sharing their faith and how our stories, I think, overlap, whether it's same church or the school that we attend or the area that we've lived in or the people that we've encountered.
T.J.:It can help bring some wholeness to this world that is certainly seeking love and wholeness Amen. In in times of isolation and loneliness in which we were talking about earlier.
Anne:Yes. Yes.
T.J.:But again, thank you so much, Anne.
Anne:Thank you. It's been a privilege.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to my faith conversation with Anne Hames. Now let me leave you with some words from Henry and Richard Blackaby. God created the church to be unlike any other human organization. It is a living body created by Christ.
