B. J. Mathis - Having Fresh Eyes To See That God Is At Work
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. This is the Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Milenoski. Today, BJ Mathis joins me. BJ was born in New London, Connecticut, but he has spent most of his time in the state of Tennessee, and he is currently serving as the youth and young adult minister at the Winchester Cumberland Presbyterian Church. He has been there for sixteen years.
T. J.:BJ, thank you for joining me on the Cumberland Road. It's good to have you.
B.J.:That's good to be here. Thanks for the invite.
T. J.:So a man who is well traveled and a man who, who has served at the Winchester Church for quite some time, you must have some stories.
B.J.:I do. I do have a few maybe. That I'll tell.
T. J.:Well, let's go pretty far back in your journey. Can you recall, and would you share with us your earliest encounter with God?
B.J.:Well, it's kind of abstract, but as a younger, I mean, definitely preschool even, but especially early elementary and to right before middle school, I lived on a farm and we had a lot of space to be outdoors. And there was woods behind the house and there were just all kinds of stuff. And we always had animals and dogs and cats and horses, and sometimes we had cows. And I don't know that I would have necessarily thought of it in a specific way, This is God. But I experienced being outside in nature and felt very connected to everything around me in a special way.
B.J.:I just have a lot of just, I don't know, looking back feeling like that was kind of where it started. I'm the youngest of three, but my siblings are seven and nine years older than me. So in a lot of ways, especially to go play or just I operated as an only child. And we live so far out. I mean, I know I put I'm from McMinnville, but really I'm from an unincorporated town called Centratown.
B.J.:And, you know, I didn't have a neighborhood of friends to run around with. So I really had to use my imagination a lot. And I just feel like part of it was that, but also I think just kind of, man, it was just so peaceful and just being a part of nature in that way for me. I'm still a big nature lover and see it in a little bit different way now. But looking back then, I felt like that's kind of where I first really encountered God as creator, you know?
B.J.:As far as kind of taking that relationship to something a little more concrete, I feel like it happened for me. I'm kind of similar to a lot of people that I don't remember a time where I didn't know God. But where it got real for me was middle school, junior high camp at Crystal Springs. That's kind of where I took ownership of my faith. That was probably the first time I've had an experience with God that was kind of corporate, you know, like in a real way, like with other people responding as well, and there just being conversations and prayers and just kind of this group experience of experiencing what's going on in that moment.
B.J.:And it was very, very powerful. And it's probably why I'm so fond of Crystal Springs outside of all those relationships. That relationship has been the foundational one that has kind of just opened up a lot in my own life and I think for many others. So that's definitely part of it. I mean, I grew up in a church.
B.J.:My family's very involved in the church.
T. J.:Yeah. What generation Cumberland Presbyterian are you?
B.J.:I'm fourth through my mom's side. My dad's side, they went other places, but my mom's family has been a part of the Batesville church since its foundation. So Oh, wow. And it's been there a minute. I remember growing up, I was real little, but we celebrated like one hundred and fifty years or something.
B.J.:And it was in like the eighties, late eighties or something like that. So it's been around. And so, I've always been there. A lot of, I mean, my mom plays the organ. My aunt plays piano, my great uncle led the singing, my cousin now leads the singing.
B.J.:Most of the choir was cousins and siblings. And if they weren't directly Ken, it just felt like a big family in a real I really thrived in that congregation as a young kid. I had friends from all ages, you know, and some of my favorite people were in their 80s. And, you know, that doesn't happen a whole lot, I feel like, in the ministry I I'm a part of at Winchester because we're a larger congregation. And but I look back, and I just realize how impactful that was for them to invest in me.
T. J.:What would you say some of the benefits are in that faith formation to be in kind of a a family atmosphere within the church?
B.J.:I think you just feel you feel like you're you're one. You know, you're united, you're not sectioned off.
T. J.:You
B.J.:know, I think part of the challenging times that we live in is not feeling part of things, you know, not sensing in a real way community, especially at church. And what happens, unfortunately, in the Winchester church that we try to, it's a pitfall, we've tried to mine the gap. But, know, students grow up, they maybe go off to college or start working or post high school. And really their only connections have been myself, which fortunately I've been there for a long time, so I'm still present. But a lot of their other connections are gone, you know?
B.J.:And whereas I go to Bay Teal and it's like, I haven't been there in years on a regular, you know, in a regular way, but I'm still very connected. So because it's just a communal thing. It's a lot more people investing in one another. So I think the benefit of that is just kind of that sense of community kind of being able to be stretched, you know, a little bit further than sometimes when we're kind of in our own little silos of ministry.
T. J.:Right. And there's safety in that as well that you know that you will always be received as BJ, you know, with that family.
B.J.:For sure.
T. J.:And they know your quirks. They know, you know, they know stories on you you can't ever remember, but they still love you.
B.J.:That's so true.
T. J.:And, yeah, that's definitely a benefit. Looking oh, yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead.
B.J.:You go ahead. There's a lot of different moments, but that church is very foundational. Crystal Springs, through that church, has been very foundational. And there's just been more opportunities through that local church moving beyond into denominational spaces like CPYC, Triennium. You know, eventually ended up at Bethel.
B.J.:All of that has been kind of, know, the church was that springboard for me, exposing me to people and experiences that, I mean, church, there's basically me and one other person, Jeremy Whitworth, And we, I mean, we went everywhere. And they sent us, you know? And they made sure we got there. And they made sure it was covered. We had everything we needed.
B.J.:And they were just excited that we wanted to be a part. But that was basically my youth my youth group, me and Jeremy. So until I met all these other people and got to experience this greater family that was out there.
T. J.:So looking back upon your your life and your faith journey, you've mentioned some very tangible and real things. You we have the earth and and the creation, how it's impacted you, the church, the people within it and the structure, and Camp Crystal Springs, and Bethel College, now Bethel University. These are very real like places that we can point to and go, look, here they are. Here they were. This is what they mean to me.
T. J.:Looking at those tangible places, how has your faith in Jesus Christ given you purpose knowing that these individuals and these physical things have formed you and shaped you into who you are today? What does that look like in terms of your faith in Jesus Christ?
B.J.:I think part of it is experiencing Jesus in a real way through the community of faith. Watching what people did, watching what people said, watching people commit their time and resources and time. Mean, my grandparents were very influential on my faith journey. My grandfather, he was a big leader in the church, but he was kind of in a quiet way. But I kind of knew, like, that I just watched him operate in that way, and it was pretty powerful to me because I, believe it or not, am more of a behind the scenes guy.
B.J.:Like, I like being behind the scenes and not out front. And I especially did at that point in my life, for most of my life. I didn't I didn't sense I don't know if it was a worthiness or just the anxiety some people get being out front, but I had to be pushed by God through other people a lot of times to be willing to go there because I'm just happy being, you know, making things happen behind the scenes. But I watched him in that quiet way still make an impact, and that was influential to me. My grandmother, she just led her life.
B.J.:She obviously had plenty to say, but she also had a lot of just serving that I got to see. And I got to go with her. We'd make, you know, like a bereavement meal or, you know, some type of thing like that. We would deliver it and I would go with her. She cleaned, her and my great aunt have cleaned the church for years.
B.J.:And I mean, I would go with them, you know, and help. Just, I watched this faithful dedication, this servant type leadership. And I think that's part of what I observed. And the part about Jesus that I'm most in love with was that he was a servant leader, and that he is a servant leader, you know? And I experienced that also at camps where I saw these counselors giving up their time to be with knuckleheads, you know, and to be with people that you have to, you know, it just takes special people to be in those environments, to be able to get through some of the shenanigans and get down to the more meaningful things maybe.
B.J.:But yeah, like I just saw these people and I felt like I related to them in a way that like, oh man, that would be awesome to be able be able to to do that someday. And and there's a lot of people I could name that that were influential in that way. Just watching people live out their faith has been more influential to me. Now when I was growing up, I was a bit of a nerd. I still am.
B.J.:And I was a, I want to know the answer, you know? Why? Who says? You know? And I can remember having some hard times along the way, just trying to mentally wrap my mind around things of faith.
B.J.:But what has kept me, I think, grounded is watching people live their faith, even if they don't have all the answers, you know? Yeah. And that's helped me immensely. Going through that helped me so much in my ministry because so many young people have questions, and I'm so okay with saying, I don't know. I've thought the same thing, you know?
B.J.:And I'm also aware of opportunities to serve and experience God that helps carry them through, you know, those times of doubt and uncertainty, because those don't go away.
T. J.:I've been looking forward to asking this question. You've been in youth and young adult ministry for quite some time, and you get to see the you know, through graduation and into college and maybe even after college, this kind of this void that once you leave high school and you have these circles of of faith and circles of support, they change drastically when you enter college or when you graduate college. So I'm wondering, what is it about God that keeps you coming back and identifying with Christianity? And it's sort of a loaded question because what also would you tell that young person, that young adult that, hey, you will be facing these things, and this is this is why I still believe in God. This is why I'm still a disciple and a Christ follower.
T. J.:So I'm really I was really looking forward to hearing your response, one, on a personal level, but also just what is the message that you would share with a young person who is entering into these new seasons of their life?
B.J.:Well, it's gonna sound a little corny, but there's an old gospel, older gospel song that I think kind of captures it for me. And it goes, it talks about a lot of different things, and it ends up saying Jesus is the best thing that's ever happened to me. And that's definitely my story. There's plenty of things I could have pursued or done outside of kind of listening to that call to serve or listening to how Jesus, God through Jesus especially, just shows us how to live. It's genuinely, I mean, there's all these many people that have been a part of my life, but Jesus is always there.
B.J.:I think cultivating that faith and that relationship in Jesus has been where I've tried to focus it, because they carry that with them wherever they go. Whether I can be there or not, whether their church family remains their church family like it was when they were younger, I think trying to instill that core relationship with Jesus has been of been my focus because that's what's carried me through. Because I mean, my own journey, and I'm sure many others through college and beyond, when you move away from home, you're not around the people that have been fixtures for your faith. Even in camp ministry, CPYC, stuff like that, you eventually age out of that. And there's even a gap between when you can maybe even, for those who feel led, come back and serve.
B.J.:Because I'm so thankful that I've been able to come back and serve. I feel so honored because I feel like I get to give back to something that has given so much to me. So it's not. It's just such a special thing. But not everybody's story is gonna be that.
B.J.:So finding that relationship in Jesus for yourself and holding onto that wherever you may go, that's going with you. Geography might limit where people can be together, but that doesn't stop God. And so I think that's been kind of where I've landed on it. Obviously encouraging and trying to facilitate opportunities to gather still into young adulthood and adulthood, and encouraging participation in campus ministries and etcetera, but ultimately trying to invest and kinda emphasize, like, that relationship you have with God, it's eternal. Mhmm.
B.J.:You know? No matter what changes around you, like, you can hold onto that. And that's easy to say. It's harder to, you know, get them to invest in because it's certainly something you've got to, just like any relationship, you've gotta be committed to.
T. J.:Sure. Well, that and that's a good segue to my next question for you, BJ, is where do you see God working in your life right now?
B.J.:To be honest, it's you know, I've been, like so many, navigating ministry in a pandemic. I'm not here to cry about that, but I am certainly, like, I feel like I'm pretty creative and open to different ideas, thinking outside the box, but even I've been pushed to exhaustion at times. Trying to create meaningful space that sometimes is very hard to achieve when you're socially distanced. So, really currently, very current, I feel like God is doing something in the midst of all of this that maybe will open up some doors to I think it's catalyst for the church to really start thinking more seriously about other options, you know? How many churches are now it's virtual and online, and I would have never thought, you know, my my own church that I grew up in Baytown now.
B.J.:No. They ain't gonna buy into that. You know? And they do, and they have. And it's like it's forced us, and there's nobody that we're not at each other because it's something we're all going through.
T. J.:Mhmm.
B.J.:You know? Because you usually have those kinda wars back and forth of different ideas of of trying to do something different. You know? So I do think there's a lot of opportunity for ministry to thrive, but it's just a matter of continuing, not getting too frustrated in the flux of things, figuring that out. And also not, you know, just becoming bitter that is maybe never gonna be normal, you know?
T. J.:Right. Letting go of some things that may never return.
B.J.:Yeah. So, you know, we might not pass the peace for a while. I don't know. We haven't been doing that, obviously. We we've in Winchester, we've operated a little more freely in person than most places I've known.
B.J.:But we still are socially distanced, encouraging masks. We pass on offering plate, you know? And some people, it's so funny, miss that. I couldn't care less. But, you know, like, I mean, obviously, I think it's important to but that little, little things like that are still, like, that just that ritual of it or that tradition of it, you know, it means something to to certain people, and that's fine.
B.J.:It's just I would never thought. Like, of all the things, like, I miss hungry people, but you miss the offering plate being passed. So, you know, it's just funny, but I think, you know, it's pushing people. It's pushing the church who is oftentimes behind. They're very comfortable, very complacent.
B.J.:Oh, you know, I don't know. Let's form a committee and think about it. Let's take a survey. Or, you know, I don't know. It seems like it's pushed us more than it ever has.
B.J.:And I know for some churches that might mean, you know, pretty drastic things. I don't know what the case is because I know there's a lot of our churches that have been struggling. So I don't want to sound too much like I'm trivializing it because it can be painful and it's hard. But, I think there's hope in the midst of it, you know?
T. J.:Yeah. I do too. And I wanted to ask you, so you've named the struggles, you've named some of the pain that has come. We are coming up to we're at a year in this pandemic. So what are you telling people when where are you pointing people to when people are wondering if God really is at work in the world today?
B.J.:Well, I think for me, I try to get people to look within. I know that's what I've been doing some soul searching, you know, trying to figure out who's the real problem here. And have we limited what God can do, you know, by putting God in this proverbial box? So I feel like we just have to have fresh eyes, you know, to see that God is still at work and God still wants to see His kingdom grow even in the midst of, I think, times where we're not sure how that looks, you know? It's not the same, same old, same old, you know?
B.J.:But I think we have to look within and kind of reflect on, you know, I think God created us, to bear witness to God. So it's kind of, if we're not seeing God, maybe it's something that we need to look within and encourage other people to do. I know I'm looking forward to Lent this year, especially. I think it's going to resonate a little more. We put a big emphasis on Lent in our youth program for a long time, and our church has kind of come alongside that now.
B.J.:And Ash Wednesday is a big deal and different things. We're obviously gonna be tweaking it this year, but I'm very much looking forward to that. And I've kind of shaped it for our youth ministry as opportunities. Are we missing those opportunities that are around us just because we've become too comfortable only seeing God in certain places, you know? And how can we look at the opportunities around us to continue to grow and continue to serve, even though we might have to get creative.
B.J.:Because even as simple as going to visit someone, it's not as simple. You have to get creative. And I think people have, but a lot of us are busy opining other things that are just aren't you know, you just kinda get down about things and we miss the opportunities. So I think we just don't need to sleep on God, you know? We need to wake up to the opportunities at hand because they're out there.
B.J.:The church, I mean, we have a lot of opportunities to continue to be the church, you know? And in fact, we might have more access into people's lives than we ever have. Goodness, you can't hardly get off Facebook and not see somebody's doing their services. I mean, get to hear a lot of my friends and I didn't before, you know, and get to see their worship services and stuff like that. And I enjoy that.
B.J.:I don't know how many others that means anything to you. It means something to me. And so we might even have more of a presence in people's lives than we realize.
T. J.:BJ, what is one hope that you have for the church? Where would you like to see the church with a capital c five years from now?
B.J.:I feel like we are very, I'm gonna say staff centric from my context. I would say pastor centric for a lot of our smaller churches. They're looking for that one person to kind of be like the go to person. And they've leaned very heavily on those people, especially in this time. That's why we all are tired, especially, because they're expecting us to figure all this out and lead them through it.
B.J.:And I feel like I have desired more for people to kind of buy into this priesthood of all believers, that we all are called to something each and every day, and that we try to go and be about that as a community of faith, you know? I think that's kind of where I'm hoping some of this time has been kind of fruitful in leading us more into, you know, helping people see that it because that's one thing that I've looked back on, I didn't really know it at the time, that my home church operated more as a unit, wasn't just because we went through pastors a lot. We were a small church. So I'd known several pastors by the time that I was going off to college. And I do see that sometimes that kind of is a hiccup for churches and congregants.
B.J.:Oh, what are we going do? We can't get a pastor, we can't keep a pastor, we can't do this, can't do that. Well, I think that's partially because we've set it up that way. You know, we've set it up to be so pasture centric, so staff centric. We gotta have a youth leader.
B.J.:We've gotta have a choir. We gotta have, you know. And I feel like we've just lost sight of being the body of Christ, you know, and operating in the world as a unit. You know, like working together, sharing the burdens and joys together in a way that's kind of managing the load. So I don't know.
B.J.:I guess that's kind of where I'm hoping we kind of move a little bit more towards. But I know that there's a lot of power struggles in the midst of that, and it's not as simple as probably it would be in my head. Because, you know, obviously, we still we still struggle with that. And I just I wish we could, in the CP church especially, figure out ways to really empower all our churches, many of whom are very small and might not have a pastor, to be really open to what ministry could look like for them. And that's something that I feel like we're challenged with right now, especially.
T. J.:Well, that ties into what you were mentioning earlier of looking inwardly. Maybe, as communities of faith, we can look inwardly to discover the gifts that are already there For sure. And smashing those gifts together to complement one another to to do the witness that you were referring to earlier.
B.J.:Yeah. I think we just gotta open people's minds up to what ministry is.
T. J.:And what it can be.
B.J.:Yeah. Because even young people, it's not really anyone's fault. It's what they've seen. It's what they've experienced. And so people have grown up in the church and they've seen certain people doing these certain roles, and that's ministry.
B.J.:And we've just failed to really educate and provide experiences for people to see. That's one of my favorite things about doing short term missions and service trips and stuff like that is they finally find this confidence of, Oh my gosh, God can use me, you know? And all I did was use my love for soccer, you know? Like, this is ministry. There is this thing, you know, that you can do and God can use this.
B.J.:And sometimes it just takes people opening up their minds to the possibility that even God could use you, even if you're not the preacher or you're not up there singing beautifully, you know, whatever it is.
T. J.:Well, BJ, how can we continue to follow you on your faith journey?
B.J.:Well, I don't know. Let's see. I would say follow your own. But of course, I'm on social media. Okay.
B.J.:And so you can definitely find me there. And I do promote a lot of stuff for Tennessee Senate and our Presbytery youth youth and young adult stuff primarily. And also our our church has a website, winchestercp.org. It's pretty easy to remember. So you can find what's going on in the life of our local congregation there.
B.J.:So that's probably the best ways to keep up with me.
T. J.:BJ, I appreciate your time. I really do. Thank you for sharing today.
B.J.:Yes. Thank you, TJ. Take care.
T. J.:And thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with us on our next journey down Cumberland Road.
