Bobby Spurling - "I Am With You Always"
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. Bobby Spurling shares his faith journey with me on this episode. He is the minister at the Hopkinsville Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Kentucky. Bobby talks about his inquisitive search for religious meaning and for peace and how he was influenced by the Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, and Catholic, finding his home in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church through his wife. His journey includes doubts, questions, ministry, letter writing, and watching movies through the eyes of faith. Enjoy this conversation with Bobby Spurling.
T.J.:What one defining characteristic helps define Bobby Spurling?
Bobby:I mean, I would say, I don't know if a characteristic, but I'm a I'm a very loyal person. I think that's something that me and my wife share and I try to be loyal to the Lord. I try to be loyal to, my church family and to those around me. And, I think, that would be a characteristic that people would recognize in me. I I would hope.
Bobby:I mean, you know, it's weird when you're answering this question about yourself, But but, you know, I would hope that would be, something that somebody would say about me as I'm loyal.
T.J.:Yeah. It is hard to talk about ourselves, especially if we're doing, you know, like a quality or a characteristic. Have you, is loyalty a gift, or is it a skill? What do you think?
Bobby:I think it's both. I mean, I think you have to you have to have a gift to do it to a certain extent, but it's also a skill. It's something that you have to learn and you have to hone. You have to take your time and learn how to be you know, learn what's hurting other people, you know, what what somebody might see as disloyal. I I had a church member one time.
Bobby:I, accidentally did not shake their hand at the end of service. And, because they call or no, it was before service. I usually stood at the front of the door before COVID and shake everybody's hand as they came in. And being a pastor, you get called away no matter what time
T.J.:Right.
Bobby:If there's some kind of emergency in the church. And I was about to shake her hand and they called me away. And she took it as an offense, and so I had to figure out what was going on. And and, you know, once we hashed it out, you know, for her, it was very important that I made sure that I shook her hand. And so, you know, loyalty is learning about other people, learning what they define as loyal as well.
Bobby:Because I mean, it's not just what I define as being loyal. You have to know where people's hearts and minds are, I mean, to to be truly loyal to your flock. I mean and and and is there things that that, of course, I'm not gonna always agree a 100% with people? Of course. But, as much as I can, you know, I wanna be loyal to those around me.
Bobby:I wanna be loyal to my wife. I wanna be loyal to my kids. I wanna be loyal to my church family. And most of all, I wanna be loyal to Christ, my king. So
T.J.:Yeah. I I hadn't thought of this before. Loyalty takes at least 2. It takes you and then me or the other person. Right.
T.J.:And it really it really is tied into trust and and that relational aspect. And, gosh, it's constantly testing as well, testing what loyalty may what that looks like with each individual and what that looks like with God. We talked about, it being, you know, kind of a gift and a skill. How far back do you can you recall a memory or an experience of where where that loyalty was tested or expressed? Didn't have to be tested.
Bobby:Yeah. Me and my wife, we went through a very tough time. When I moved here to Hopkinsville, I'll just give one example. I can give multiple ones. But when I moved to Hopkinsville, it was a tough go because she, she was had a school.
Bobby:She'd already signed a contract to teach at Maryville Christian, and she had to fulfill that year. I left in November here to Hopkinsville. And so, we had to keep our relationship we basically had to keep things going even over that distance span. And it took work. It took time.
Bobby:I wrote letters to my wife because I knew that would be something that she would enjoy to receive. And just making sure that, you know, I took the time to invest in that relationship because it's it's central. I I I don't believe I can be a good minister and not be a good husband and father. I mean, I know there's some historical people in the past who do that, but I don't believe that I can. I believe that, to be a good minister, you have to be a good husband and you have to be a good father.
Bobby:And and, and I believe that Christ wants me to be those things. So when I'm trying to be loyal to my wife, I do that by making sure that I cut time out for her even if we're apart. I don't know if that makes sense.
T.J.:Yeah. Or if that's even
Bobby:a good example. But No.
T.J.:I think it is, Bobby, because you had that distance, that space. You know. You guys were in the same space daily, and then calling and 2 vocations pulled that away. I thought it was really cool that you went old school and wrote letters. I thought that was pretty neat.
Bobby:Well, I just you know, and I I just thought it would be something that was special and different. I mean, who doesn't like to go to the mailbox and be surprised, you know. And, you know, I thought that was a way that I could sit down and I could collect my thoughts a lot better. And, you know, there was a lot of times where I'd be doing more ministry than I normally would because I had more time. But but when I did have that time and I did have a lot of time on my hands because when you don't have your wife and kids there, you got a lot of time.
Bobby:I would make sure that I wrote my wife. I'd make sure that I tried to do things for my kids so when they came up and visited, that it would be a special experience for them.
T.J.:How long were you apart?
Bobby:So from November until May. And we've had to do things like that kind of along in ministry. It's a hard thing. When I went to seminary, she had a rough go at her school that she was at. She was in a public school there, and she moved back to the public school she went to.
Bobby:And I would travel to Asbury, which was in Kentucky, and she stayed in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. And so it was, you know, there'd be 3 or 4 days a week that I didn't see her, and I would commute back. And, it just was important to you know, it's always become an important thing to just cut out time and and make her a priority. Yeah. You know, just like I cut out time every day for Jesus, I gotta cut out time for my wife as well.
T.J.:There's something to be said where that loyalty and intentionality, they really do go together. We have to be intentional
Bobby:Right.
T.J.:In in all the relationships that we have. Well, Bobby, share with me a meaningful experience that you've had with God, something that really just kinda resonates and and, you feel comfortable in sharing.
Bobby:Okay. I'm gonna give just a little bit of my story so that way I'll try to give the Reader's Digest version.
T.J.:Sure. Yeah. Give some context. Absolutely.
Bobby:I was born and raised in Gatlinburg, Tennessee. We did not have Cumberland Presbyterian churches there. I still do not to this day, just just as a heads up. And so obviously I wasn't raised Cumberland Presbyterian. I was raised my mama was a Methodist, and my dad was a Baptist.
Bobby:And so I kinda went to both churches growing up, but mostly went to the Baptist church. They would come and pick us up and things like that. And and my mama was a baptist, and I went with her to church as well. But, anyways, when I was at my dad's church, I had a really rough understanding of who God was. And this will kind of build on some of these other things that we've been thinking about to consider.
Bobby:But they would preach like 3 sermons there. And I and I don't I'm not knocking all baptist. I'm just talking about this little tiny baptist church that where I came from. And, they would have turn and burn sermons. They'd have, culture is evil and the book of Revelation.
Bobby:But they had a really weird view of God, like, And, like God wanted to kill you. It would be within God's purview and happiness to destroy you. But like Jesus loves you and kind of wraps you up and protects you from from the wrath of God. And and I get that. I I get that we're we're sinners, and we've we've committed sin against God, but I I think it was kind of a gross mischaracterization.
Bobby:But so I came up to the altar 1, Sunday, and I came up out of fear. And I did feel like there was a slight change there, but I did not have a peace. I didn't have a peace. Fast forward a little bit. Well, just a couple of years, I I got saved and, I was getting closer to high school age and I wanted to know something about the trinity.
Bobby:And I asked that pastor, and and and I don't blame him. He would he was a plumber. He worked probably, like, 80, 90 hours a week. And this this little upstart kid having to ask questions and and wondering about God, was probably not number 1 in his priority. But, anyways, I asked him about the trinity, and he he slapped me on the back and said, boy, you don't need to worry about the trinity.
Bobby:You just need to have Jesus in your heart. And you've already come up to the altar, so you're good. And I didn't feel good. I went through questioning and having doubts and and wanting to know things. I even looked at other world religions.
Bobby:I always had my eye on Christ, but, you know, I did want answers, and I felt like I couldn't get answers. But once in a, I was in a drama class in high school, and these Baptists were like coming hard down on these Roman Catholic kids. And I was like, oh my goodness. And the Roman Catholic kids had answers for everything that they said. And and I remember specifically one of them was, like, they're like, you pray to Mary, don't you?
Bobby:And they go, no. We ask Mary to pray for us. And they're like, do you they said, do you believe that Mary's in hell or in heaven? And of course, they're like, in heaven. And they're going, so you don't think that we can ask Mary to pray on our behalf?
Bobby:And they stumped them. And I was like, well, maybe they know about the Trinity. And so I asked them, and they gave me a pretty good answer. And I was like, wow. And I was like, can I go meet up with you guys?
Bobby:So I met up with them on Wednesday nights, and they had catechism and then they had youth group. Well, they were like, you're too old and we're almost at the finish line of catechism. But if you want to, we'll get a group of adults together and we'll put you through the rite of Christian initiation as an adult, RCIA. And so I was like, oh, this is great. So I met I put their youth group every Wednesday night, and then I started going through RCIA and I got like, this understanding of God and theology, that I'd never gotten before.
Bobby:Like this idea that, you know, that God loved us. And and so this is where I had this encounter with God. I finally come to peace. You know, One of the questions that you had brought up is your faith journey. I really love that.
Bobby:That's what they said. They said, this is your journey with Christ. And I like that because, you know, a lot of people think that you get saved and then that's the finish line. No. That's the beginning of the story.
Bobby:That's the beginning of the road. And so, you know, there, they let me know that, hey. This is the beginning of the road. And, you know, I learned more about the Bible and things that I'd never thought about before. And I learned about theology, and theology became something very important to me.
Bobby:Even at, you know, I think I was probably about 17 or 18 at this time. And I eventually got baptized as a Roman Catholic. Never been baptized in my life. Got baptized as a Roman Catholic, in March, March 22, 2002. And that was just a very meaningful thing because I knew that God loved me.
Bobby:I knew that God the father loved me. And I find I found it ironic because, when I was in church, we would often quote John 316 at the Baptist Church. And and I was just like, that god's just completely different than the one that I'm hearing in the sermons. You know? You know?
Bobby:The idea that for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish. You know, that the the father loves me as well. You know? And I and I've I've had a strained relationship with my father, But to know that God loves me and God loves me as father is, just a beautiful, beautiful thing. And so, I just, it was this thing where I came to a peace.
Bobby:I carried a lot of anger and hate in my life. And once I came to that relationship with Christ, it was as if I dropped it down. I mean, literally it is like kind of like the Pilgrim's Progress. You carry these burdens, just like John Bunyan's Pilgrim's. You carry these burdens on your back, and then when you finally get to the realness of the cross, you lay them down.
Bobby:And I had a piece that went beyond understanding. And so to me, that that was an even greater experience than the the the different life and that I was supposed to be about kingdom building and being about his world and, you know, making his world come on earth as it is in heaven. And so, you know, it's just a different kind of mindset. And it really prepared me and helped me, for college. Because when I went to college, having this theology, having this firm belief in Christ really helped me because, I went to Maryville College, and I was I was at the time, I I became I was a psychology major, but then I felt this call in my life.
Bobby:And, you know, they're the first ones who kind of that I believed that said, hey. You might need to be a, you you know, they thought I was gonna be a priest. My my wife made sure that didn't happen. But, you know, but they saw that call in my life and my wife saw that call in my life. And so eventually I became a religious studies major.
Bobby:And at Maryville College, my faith came under attack. I mean, if you believe in, the biblical record or anything, then then you're silly. If you believe that Jesus actually physically bodily rose from the dead, you were considered silly. And, you know, I was like, wow. I was like, this is a whole different world.
Bobby:And I remember when things turned around completely, I had been listening to the professors and I was on board with everything. I went to go see the passion of Christ opening day in Maryville. And, my friend who, was my buddy, he stood me up that day and I saw my professors and they're like, come sit with me. That was like the, you know, a paramount thing that happened in my life. I went and sat with them and they laughed and jeered at the whole movie.
Bobby:They mocked it. They said, you know, Mel Gibson really needs to keep to making, you know, like Braveheart of things.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Bobby:And that's when I went and asked them individually. I didn't do this in front of class. I didn't wanna embarrass them. I asked them if they believed that Jesus was the Son of God. I asked them if they believed that Jesus was really resurrected.
Bobby:And that's where a lot of them would say, well, Jesus was the most filled with God as any human being, or you know, I don't believe he's resurrected, but that he lives on in God's eternal camcorder of eternity or something. I mean, crazy, stuff. And I was like, wow, I am a lot different than these people. But I still prayed for them and I love them. And I I pray for my professors, and I still love them to this day, even though I didn't agree with them.
Bobby:But I was like, wow. This is this is difficult. And so So, yeah.
T.J.:Let let's let's stay here for a minute. So you I mean, you're a student and it is the professor. So there's that
Bobby:They're in authority over me. Yeah.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. And and you you have these faith questions and and clearly, there's different perspectives.
Bobby:Right.
T.J.:I mean, so what's going on in your head? I mean, you you want to you want to pass the course, you want to be a good student, and you're still you're a young adult as well. I would imagine, you can correct me if you're if I'm wrong, you're kind of looking for mentors and guides and examples in terms of just growing into adulthood and growing into a faith. Right. So where did you find that that, foundation or solace or, direction or instruction or all the above.
Bobby:Right. That's and as I said again, kind of if I had not I don't I don't believe if I hadn't have become a Roman Catholic at that time and had that theology and had that underpinning, I don't think I would I don't know that I would still be a Christian today.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Bobby:I'm just being honest with you. I mean, in in all honesty, if if if all this stuff is just a joke and, we're all gonna get into heaven, which is one of almost all the professors believed universally, then then why would I waste my time reading or learning about any of this stuff? You know? But, if it is true, if it is what it's all about, then it's of the utmost importance. And so, I had to make a decision of what I believed.
Bobby:And so I always looked for ways to pray for my professors and try to get them to think. I had friends who were gung ho Christians who would bring the Bible to class and try to come at the professors. It got to such a point that they banned the Bible from class from Christian class.
T.J.:Good gracious.
Bobby:But, I always thought these people are not our enemies. They're people that we need to love and and and help them see, you know, how we view things. And, you know, I always looked at college, as a kid as an open forum, as a place to juggle ideas, not not just to be, a place of you know, we're supposed to be hashing out these ideas. But it wasn't the case. I mean, usually it was very much this is what we believe and this is what you have to go with.
Bobby:And and, and I had a few classes that were open and, and they were wonderful. My Appalachian Christianity class was wonderful. They weren't like, oh, you're stupid for believing any of this stuff. You know? That professor was an awesome professor.
Bobby:He would allow us free thought. But in other classes, we weren't allowed free thought. But I still looked at them as worthy of being redeemed and not not my enemies, trying to love on them. I had a professor who said that all life is like an acorn. And until you're an adult and produce other acorns, that acorn is, you know, without value.
Bobby:And, you know, and I said to the professor, I said, you know that's not true. And he said, why do you say that? And I said, you have a young son. I said, you know that you love that son. You saying that he's of no worth until he's 20 years old and can think on his own?
Bobby:And he's like, well, no. No. Not exactly. That's not what I'm trying to say. And and I wasn't trying to have gotcha moments, but I was trying to get him to think because I had to think about this stuff and I was trying to get him to think.
Bobby:And if I could get him to think just a little bit, then I was super excited about it. I mean, I always thought this was a place for discussion and debate and for us to think about deeper things. I didn't know that it was just gonna be like reading, Alfred North Whitehead and, Sally McFague and that's that's and what they say is the gospel. I didn't know that was the case. And so I I just didn't try to argue with my professors.
Bobby:I would ask them questions because I always thought questions was a better way to go about things than just saying that you're wrong. And in my papers, I tried to be a good student. I was a terrible student at Maryville College because they would say, how do you feel? What do you believe? And I would put what I believe, and I was like a straight you know, like, I was like b's and c's.
Bobby:Like, in my everything else, I was getting like, a's and b's in. And my, like, my major, I'm getting, like, c's. And so I finally had to figure out that I had to say, this is what you want me to say, and I would put it that way. I'd be like, this is what you want me to say. You want to know that I know this information.
Bobby:And then I put, and I believe this. I would fill up blue books. It was crazy. But, but I mean, those people are not bad people. They just believe differently.
Bobby:And I don't know I just don't know how they can hold on to their faith and and not believe, you know, any of it's true. And, you
T.J.:know, that How did you, so you have the religious studies major and then these doubts. Yeah. What what kept you going? I mean, why didn't you why didn't you just go back to majoring in psychology?
Bobby:I don't know. That's a very good question. I I I mean, I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. I always thought, you know what? At least I'm here asking questions, and I wanted to know what other people thought.
Bobby:But once I got through that, I was like I was like, I wanna go and get some refreshing thoughts. And so, you know, I mean, that's part of the reason I chose Asbury or Asbury chose me. God chose me for Asbury. I don't know. I felt called when I went there.
T.J.:I
Bobby:know I felt just as called to go into Asbury as I felt called to just go into ministry. It's so crazy. But it was a they're like a place where head and heart go hand in hand. And I was like, yes. I was like, this is me.
Bobby:And they were serious about the gospel. They were you know, of course, they would teach things the same. I know this might be boring for some some people who are not really in the in the know, but, like, you know, the the documentary source hypothesis, jdep, the way it was taught was at Maryville College is you should you should not believe the Old Testament because it was edited. And, you know, because it's edited, you can't trust any of the words in it. And, you know, at Maryville or at Asbury, it was like, well, you know, it was edited, of course, but can't you see that the hand of the authors all through it?
Bobby:And like it was a positive experience. It wasn't a negative. I retook classes. That's how apparently I'm a glutton for punishment, as I said. I went through and retook my old testament classes, my new testament classes.
Bobby:I could have just taken a test and passed, but I was like I I wanna hear what these people have to say.
T.J.:So, where are we in your faith journey in terms of connecting with the Catholic church? So you finished up
Bobby:at the Hesperia. Okay. Yeah. I guess
T.J.:I'm sorry. You finished up.
Bobby:We need to show where that turn happened. Right?
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. You finished up at, Maryville.
Bobby:Oh, yeah. So With
T.J.:with her Well, I
Bobby:just finished up at Maryville. Oh, yeah. Well, I met my wife, Lee Scott, at that time.
T.J.:And everything changed.
Bobby:Everything changed. She was a lifelong Cumberland Presbyterian. She's, like, 3 or 4 gen I mean, like, multi generation Cumberland Presbyterian, and I was like so we would attend church together. We attended church together at both going to a mass and going to Beavercreek Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Knoxville.
T.J.:Now how did you
Bobby:2 Sunday.
T.J.:How did you 2 meet?
Bobby:We met at InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. She was a leader there, and I love the Bible. And I because I wasn't as entrenched in things, like, I had different takes on scripture, and so it it was really different. So she would be like, wow, he he really is thinking about this stuff. And, I just didn't I guess I was lucky in the sense that I didn't have that, some of the Sunday school things, some some of the some of the Sunday school isms.
Bobby:I I came to the scripture with fresh eyes in a certain sense, and, I didn't just kind of like I love Sunday school material, but sometimes, like, if we don't ever grow out of, like, some of the kiddiness of it, it it like, people sometimes never really get that David, like, killed Goliath. You know? They they think he just, like, knocked him out with a stone and he walked away, you know, that the Bible's kinda gritty and things. So I I don't know. It was it was just kind of a different
T.J.:Yeah. Let me let me help you out here. So you like studies that go a layer or 2 or 3 deeper and really take a look at the the world of the text behind the text and and something something that may take more than 45 minutes of study to really get into it. Okay.
Bobby:Yes, sir.
T.J.:I don't want people listening going, I know Bobby despises Sunday school. He's hungry for Sunday
Bobby:school. I love Sunday school. You just we just as as I don't know if it's because of people who leave the church and then come back eventually or what happens, but but somewhere between middle school and high school, some of these kids who leave, they never get that that fullness of understanding the scripture. And so of course it's not appropriate to hear, you know, about the violence and things that are happening in the Old Testament or, to really see that the evil that David done. We get the VeggieTales version of the little ducky and things like that.
Bobby:Of course, those things are important for little kids, but you have to make that turn. So it's just important for us. Sunday school material is awesome and it does teach the the Bible. But once those kids get older, we have to make sure that we invest into giving them the whole Bible and letting them know that these people are really broken, flawed people who God uses. And, you know, I don't think we get that.
Bobby:Sometimes people I'll meet people who think that, like, none of the people in the old testament sinned, and I'm like, woah. No. They they all did. They all really messed up in one way or another, you know, be be it Abraham, Noah, Moses, all of them. And, anyways but
T.J.:So you you meet your wife, or soon to be wife at InterVarsity there at Maryville. Yeah. And she is the one who introduced you to this lovely denomination called Cumberland Presbyterian.
Bobby:Yes. But we're 2 bullheaded people. So as I said, we we attended both mass and and the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Well, when we got closer to time when we decided that we were gonna get married, we we decided we probably needed to go to a denomination that kind of hedged those two things. So we went to the ELCA Lutheran, and, I'll just be brief in that.
Bobby:The ELCA went a different way than what we could believe. And so then we were looking for churches again. We went to the United Methodist for a little while, and then Lee just handed me a confession of faith. And she goes, Bobby, read this. She goes, I'm not gonna she goes, I know you're stubborn just like me.
Bobby:And she goes, I know how you are, but just read this. And if you agree with it, just consider being a Cumberland Presbyterian. And she goes, if you disagree with it, she goes, I'm not gonna bother you again with it. And so I went through and I read the confession of faith, from front to back, all the theology, all the doctrine, the directory of worship. And I was like, I really agree with all of this stuff.
Bobby:I was like, it's important in the areas that are important. And and, you know, in the area that I disagreed the most with the Roman Catholic church, it says in the first pages that exactly, what I believe that all children who die, are with the Lord. That was one of the biggest rubs I had with the Roman Catholic church. I got into an argument with a priest. That's when they kind of were like, maybe this guy should be a priest.
Bobby:I don't know. Because, you know, the Roman Catholics, you know, and and I I just said, I'm not gonna disparage them much because they they gave me a foundation. But, I vehemently disagree with their view on children, and but that's why they're so against abortion though, and it makes sense why they are. They believe that all unbaptized babies who die, go to limbo. And limbo is the not hot part of hell.
Bobby:And so that's a that's a very scary thing. And so, I vehemently disagreed with him on that. But, so when I came to the Cumberland Church, it was kind of like a very much a breath of fresh air.
T.J.:Can you recall from that first reading of the confession, constitution, rules of discipline, directory of worship, rules of order? What stuck out?
Bobby:Well, the theology I mean, just to be honest, if the theology didn't stick out I probably wouldn't have made it to the rest of the book. And so the first 20 pages I mean, before I'll let somebody become a member in the church, they have to read the first 20 pages of the confession of faith. And because it's so important about what we believe about baptism, what we believe about infants, what we believe about, you know, you know, and the resurrection of the dead. I did I kinda overviewed I I kind of skipped over that, the first time going through it. I always believed in the resurrection of the dead.
Bobby:But, you know, one of my favorite authors really challenged me on that. And, and that's how he became my favorite author. I was like, you're wrong. You're wrong, N. T.
Bobby:Wright. You're so wrong. I went through the book Surprised by Hope, and he's like, it's not about heaven. It's about the resurrection. Because if you go through the New Testament, there's a lot more that talks about the resurrection than just people going to heaven.
Bobby:And I was like, no. You're wrong, N. T. Wright. I went through and reread the New Testament.
Bobby:I was like, I'm gonna prove him wrong, and I was very much proven wrong.
T.J.:Alright. So you you read the confession of faith from cover to cover. And, you, you you weren't disagreeable with it. So
Bobby:No. I loved it.
T.J.:Yeah. So tell me more. So then you go to your wife and you go, what happened?
Bobby:So at that point, I told her that I was I was on board. I was, like, I'm ready to be part of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And so for the next years, you know, I went to Beavercreek. I attended Beavercreek. I did my internship at Beavercreek.
Bobby:We had to do an internship for seminary. And, you know, we went there. I went and got involved in the life of the church there. I was involved with bible study and, all all aspects of that. So, I really enjoyed, going to Beavercreek, and I had before as well.
Bobby:But now I had a new fervor about it, and I knew who I was and I knew who I wanted to be. And so, I began the process of becoming a candidate, even though I think I was in, like, year 1 or 2 of seminary, year 1, I think. And, I became a candidate, and then I think I was licensed my senior year of seminary, and then I was ordained the following, November after that May or something like that or not November, but, February. So it was exciting stuff. It was very exciting.
Bobby:And and I've had a lot of mentors in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. I mean, Thomas Sweets taught me how to write a funeral sermon, and I had no idea about how to do that. I you know, and and how to do it with people. You know, you don't think about this when you're going through seminary, but there's gonna be people that you don't know anything about. You don't have a clue anything about them.
Bobby:How do you pull things from people's lives, and represent them in this in this last message that goes out before as the family, has a memorial of their life, you know, and a celebration of their life. And, so, you know, Thomas taught me how to do that, how to ask probing questions, how to do those kind of things. And, you know, I wish I was half as good a speaker as Thomas was, but, you know, so So there's a little envy there, but I really enjoyed it. And Lee's father has been a mentor to me. He showed me how to be a pastoral counselor.
Bobby:He's he was a chaplain for years years years. And now he's serving a little church, but he showed me how to minister to people and how to, listen to their hurts and how sometimes to shut my big mouth and just listen. And and, I mean, I learned some very valuable valuable lessons from from him about how to do ministry with people in the hospital and and who were
T.J.:Isn't it great to have folks like Reverend Scott and Reverend Sweet? And, you know, you were talking earlier about I mean, I just see this, young, younger Bobby really just seeking and and seeking out people and roles of authority or different places and not finding it. And maybe that's where that loyalty comes in that you're talking about earlier. You were you were loyal to the the curiosity and the seeking of meaning in a relationship with god and and life. And, well, I'm I'm glad you found that solace and comfort and a place to exercise your your beliefs and your ministry in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, because it sounds like you have you got a little bit of Baptist, Methodist, Roman Catholic church, education under your belt, and then you've just oh, Lutherans.
T.J.:Yeah. So I'm glad you've landed here.
Bobby:I'm I feel blessed that I'm part of this denomination. So
T.J.:Well, we've talked quite a bit about the past. What is it about this Christian faith that that just keeps you coming back, that just keeps you coming back to God? Because you definitely have had some discouragements along the way. Yeah. I kind of alluded to this earlier with a question, but you've had plenty of opportunities to just kind of be on the peripheral.
T.J.:Maybe some like those folks that you mentioned earlier in terms of growing up in church and then and then leaving and then maybe coming back. What what is it that made you never really leave?
Bobby:Well, I mean, I I do believe that, like, in in all honesty, I believe that my mama almost prayed me into ministry. She was a faithful woman of God. She prayed often, and she read scripture and sang hymns every day. And from when my parents got a divorce when I was about 10 years old, I was in her house every day, and she may have not had answers for me. She was very simple in her faith, but she always praised God, and God was always with her, and I wanted what she had.
Bobby:And when I finally got that, when I when I got Christ with me, I can go through anything. I can go through any struggle in life because I know that Christ is with me. My favorite verse of all time is Matthew 28:20 where Jesus promises the disciples, lo, I will be with you always, even to the end of the age. That idea that Jesus is with me, means that even no matter what hardship I go through, no matter what good times or bad times that we go through in life, that I know He's with me. You know, if if I, you know, in seminary, we were like, I don't know.
Bobby:Maybe you've had this experience in college or something, but seminary was really bad. We were eating, like, pot pies every day, and we weren't eating them because, they were, you know, delicious. We were eating them because they were 50ยข a piece, you know, and I gained so much weight, it was so bad, anyways. But the thing is is that I knew that God was with me in that hard time. I knew God was with me.
Bobby:And so when you know that someone's with you and that nothing can ever take that away, nothing, no person, no, any you know, no organization, no government, no individual. No one can take that away from you. It gives you a comfort and peace that makes it where you can serve. You know, and so if people have that genuine relationship, and I know I'm an odd duck to say stuff like this. I know people may not always experience God this way.
Bobby:But when I know that God's with me, even in those times that I'm alone, I know it's because I'm stepping away from God, not God stepping away from me. And so I know that God's there with me all the time and it gives me a comfort and a freedom to follow him more boldly, to not worry, to not worry all the time. And as a pastor, it's a hard thing to not be a people pleaser. But if you follow God and and you have trust in God, you wanna be more loyal to God than you are to making people always happy. And that's a very difficult thing.
Bobby:But, you know, I I want to honor God's word, and I don't wanna skip over sections because they're difficult. I wanna go through them. And just knowing that He's with me, makes it where I can go through any hardship. And and and I'm not trying to be say I'm a hero or anything in any way because I went through stuff, and and and I'm like, god. Where are you at in this?
Bobby:Mhmm. But I knew that he was there. And so even in the darkness, I I knew I could reach out and and touch the light of Christ. And that's that's something powerful, and that's something that just goes beyond the, the worries of the world. And and and as I said, it's just something that gives me great comfort and peace.
T.J.:Was your grandmother able to see you through this part of your faith journey?
Bobby:Yes. My grandmother saw me become a pastor. Unfortunately, she had Alzheimer's really bad. So sometimes by that by the point, I got ordained. So in her moments of awakening, I guess, she would she kinda knew I was a pastor, but then there would be times when she she didn't know, you know, she all and and one thing it's it's amazing is she always knew who I was.
Bobby:Even when I shaved this head, she knew. I didn't have the curly hair or thinning hair anymore, and she still knew it was me. And so, I mean, that was a blessing from God, that even through her walk with Alzheimer's and all that, that that she still knew who I was. And so, I consider that a blessing. And and, yeah, she got to see the fruition of her prayers, and, I think that's that's truly a blessing.
T.J.:Bobby, we were talking off mic before we got started about, the importance of, articulating in the best way that we can where we see God present in the world today. And often on, when we talk about our faith, our faith journey, we are reflecting back into the past. But there are plenty of people like you, like a young Bobby, who have questions, you know, in the moment, in the day. Yeah. So for whenever you encounter your doppelganger from the past, because I think I don't think you I know you're not alone.
T.J.:You weren't alone then. I imagine you probably felt it as a kid and teenager and young adult. What words would you use? How would you share with that individual that God is here with us in this very moment?
Bobby:I I think you just have to meet people where they're at and listen. So often, we wanna tell people about Jesus, but we don't wanna hear their story first.
T.J.:I'm sorry. It's so true.
Bobby:I I don't know how many people I've talked to. Like, this is before I became a pastor and because a lot of, you know, now that I've become a pastor, it's a lot different kind of thing. Before I became a pastor, you know, I would talk to people and I would listen to them. I've listened to people who were professed Satanists and and Wiccans and, and, you know, I've talked to people, and I listened to them, and I let them tell me what they got out of what they believed. And then I told them what I got out of what I believed.
Bobby:And, you know, I always tried to live my life as kind of like a servant leader. And so when I worked at Pizza Hut and all through college, I would do the the the worst jobs. I would clean the bathrooms. I'd take the trash out and do things like that that nobody wanted to do, and I would do it, and I would take other people's jobs. If they wanted to switch jobs, I'd take the worst jobs.
Bobby:Not because I thought it was special, but everything that I did, I wanted to do it for the Lord. And I wanted to try to have a cheerful spirit about it, and people could see the difference. You know, so when you can listen to people and hear them, really hear them, and then share what God has done for you, I think it changes minds and it changes hearts. And if they see you living it out, that just cements it. You know, I I I I have had a temper in my life, and I have I have messed up my witness at times and, things like that.
Bobby:But, but for the most part, when I've been able to live for Christ, you know, it makes a change in people's lives. And and I get them to think. I may not always be able to harvest the the plants, but I can always plant the seed. And, you know, I think the way we soften the soil is by listening to their story. You know, I have an uncle who's an atheist, and I'll listen to him.
Bobby:I'll let him say all the things that he had against the church that he had against God. And, and then I didn't correct him. I just told him how I experienced God and, why I believe the scriptures. And, you know, and he didn't come away, walking away as a Christian, but he said, I wish more Christians were like you. And I took that to be a compliment.
Bobby:You know, I think if we can get people to think and to to know the experience that we have in Christ, I think it would change lives. When we have that genuine experience, it should come through all of our life. It should just bleed through us. You know? It should it should be like our cup overflowing into every aspect of life.
T.J.:I've never understood the face sharing as something to shoulder as in to convince another person or group of people. But, really, the best I can do and offer is just point. Yeah. Not in the finger pointing judgmental, but, you know, here here here's what god is doing through Jesus in me and in others. And it may not be for that other person, but, man, that takes that burden and that anxiety of of saving, off where I can just show and talk freely about my limited understanding of who God is and how God moves through the world and how that's heard or received, whether it's transformative or ignored, I have no control over that.
T.J.:Right. None. Right. But, that's that's how I see us sharing our faith in healthy and, yeah, healthy ways.
Bobby:Right. I agree. I I think that's a good way to go about it. I mean, I can't remember his last name. I think his name is George.
Bobby:I think his name is George Hunter. He wrote this book called The Celtic Way of Evangelism.
T.J.:Yeah. And
Bobby:he talked about how we can kind of adopt people into groups. How the Celtic, they didn't they didn't go out and try to go and stand on a corner per se and street evangelize, but they would go out in communities and and and get people to come into their community. You know? And sometimes we often think of churches, this thing inside the building. You know, and here's this thing that's challenging us to live outside the building and to pull people in.
Bobby:You know? Just like I had mentioned with the Roman Catholic kids, they all hung together at school, and they kind of roped me into the group. And when we can make somebody who feels like they're on the outside feel like they're inside and let them know that they're loved and let them know a God of love, you know, I think that's a great way to go about it. I agree with you on on everything you just said. I mean, I just think, you know, it's not about, proving that we're right, you know.
Bobby:And and I'm not saying that debate is bad. I'm not saying that people like William Lane Craig and and and other great speakers, that they're wrong for having debates. I find it actually astounding. I don't think people nowadays have the attention span to watch those, but but I really love watching the debates. And the thing is is that, I love when I hear atheists like Christopher Hitchens, you know, say, you know, I disagree with the people that I'm speaking with, but they're genuinely nice people to me.
Bobby:After the the meeting's over, they come up and and, you know, they they're nice to me, and they're and they care about how I'm doing. You know? And Penn Jillette said, a similar thing. Penn Jillette is a, is an atheist, and, he was talking about how evangelical Christians, he goes he goes, I might think it's crazy what they believe, he goes, and they really believe it, He goes, but they they sure do care about people. And I hope I hope anybody who walks away from a Christian conversation, I hope they can say that.
Bobby:You know? I may not agree with them, but they sure do care a lot about me.
T.J.:Yeah. I mean, I think our posture plays into a lot of that conversation is different than debate. Yes. And I I'm a big advocate of more talk, talk, talk, talk, conversation. And in our posture, physically, and I think inwardly is important as well.
T.J.:I need to be receptive of the person who's sharing with me and not just wait for my turn to speak, but but be receptive to what they have to share. And, you know, you alluded to this early, in our conversation. You gave the the perception of God, and again, this was child Bobby, not adult Bobby, but that fear of God, and Jesus was the protector. And I found that really interesting, and then then you experienced, you know, God God is love. And I thought that was really, really neat.
T.J.:My upbringing was different, but I know what you're talking about of a god to be feared and a god of love. Those are very opposing in some ways. And to to make a leap from one to the other is really really interesting. So people can have transformative experiences, I think, with even within the faith. So not only just coming to the faith, but also within the faith as well.
Bobby:Right. I I mean, I think as an adult, I've kind of balanced it out. Kenneth Collins was one of my professors at Asbury, and I think he put it aptly. We worship a God of holy love. He is both pure, perfect, and holy, and he's also love.
Bobby:And and we can't take away that tension of God being both holy and loving at the same time.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Bobby:And I I think that gives us some more of a balance. You know?
T.J.:Right. Well and again, it's a relationship. Relationships among human beings are complex, and the relationship with the almighty is complex as well.
Bobby:Oh, absolutely.
T.J.:And it's usually on my end that makes it complex.
Bobby:Oh, I agree. That's how it is all I mean, for me, anyway. Yeah.
T.J.:Off mic, we were talking, we're just doing small talk before we got started, and you had mentioned Star Wars. I think this might be a good good lead into I I like asking folks, you know, is there books, is there movies in your life recently, long ago, that have impacted your faith, that have impacted your life?
Bobby:Right. Well, and I think this will be good too because I threw a little mud at that little Baptist church that I I grew up in, but also, I had a high school football coach, who is a Baptist, and he's a Baptist minister now, who was instrumental in getting me kind of into the faith. I mean, he may have not realized he was pushing me the way he would, or he probably wouldn't have been happy with the choices I made. But he was I mean, he definitely pushed me back towards the Christian faith. You know?
Bobby:I was in that time of questioning and doubt, and I couldn't see how, you know, I'd always heard that culture is bad, so don't ever, you know, don't ever try to use things from culture to talk about God, from the church that I went to. And then here's another here's another Baptist gentleman on long bus rides back from, after playing football on the charter bus and or or on the cheese bus, whichever one. And he would have these long conversations about God and he would talk about movies and he would talk about well, he would start off the conversation, do you like Star Wars? I was like, yeah. And he goes, do you really love, like, The Empire Strikes Back?
Bobby:I'm like, yeah. It's a really good movie. And he goes, do you ever think about how, you know, like, the Holy Spirit is kinda like the force now? He said, of course, all this stuff falls short of that. But he got me to thinking about how to view things in a Christian worldview.
Bobby:And and I, have never, let that go. I mean, and so when I watch movies, I watch them through the eyes of of my Christian worldview. For example, Signs is probably one of the worst alien movies there ever was, but it's probably one of the best movies about faith and God's sovereignty and things like that. I I mean, I don't know if anybody's ever seen Signs, but if you haven't, it you know, if you watch it for an alien movie, you have missed out. But if you watch it as a movie about faith, wow.
Bobby:You know?
T.J.:So, alright. Let's pause here for a moment. So Signs, M. Night, Shyamalan movie. It's got Mel Gibson in it.
T.J.:Yes. What what's that fella's name? Phoenix.
Bobby:Joaquin Phoenix.
T.J.:Joaquin Phoenix. Thank you. And I'm sure there are others. I hadn't seen this film in a long time. So refresh my memory.
T.J.:What is it about that film that really resonates with you in terms of your faith? Because all I remember is aliens you can't see and cornfields.
Bobby:Oh, you see, that's and that's the way if you yeah. Okay. Well, all throughout the movie, there's all these characters have quirks. They have quirks. They have God given quirks.
Bobby:This little girl can't help but sit water out everywhere. She just sits it out everywhere. There's this guy named Merrill Joaquin Phoenix. It's his, it's his, little brother, and he lives with him. Every time he plays baseball, he swings.
Bobby:Whether it's a ball, whether it's a strike, whether it's even something that's hitable, he swings. And his wife gets hit by a car, and it's very tragic. And, she gets pinned into the car, and she tells him she said, look and see. And she goes, tell Meryl when the time comes to swing away. You know?
Bobby:And she tells some other sweet things about her family and things like that. But you see God's providence in it. Like, by the end of the movie, the only thing that can kill these aliens, which I don't know why they would invade a planet mostly covered in water, is water. And this little girl has set out water everywhere. This little girl has put water everywhere and these things that has crashed his faith because his wife died and he couldn't handle it.
Bobby:He sees that God used her to give him this message to save his little boy who is dying of an asthma attack. And it's just powerful. If you look at it through not the eyes of faith, it's just a stupid movie. It's the stupidest movie you could ever see. But if you look at it through the eyes of faith, it becomes something much more.
Bobby:And so when we look at things through the eyes of faith, you know, it becomes something very different. Just like, The Matrix, I it's a very raunchy movie series, but it has very Christian themes throughout the whole thing. And, I'll never forget. I is I got, like, an a plus plus, and the professor's like, can I use this in future things? But, you know, nobody likes the the 3rd installment.
Bobby:I haven't watched the 4th installment of the matrix. But the third one, you have Neo who goes up against all these agent Smiths, and they've taken over everybody's bodies. And the taint of evil has touched everybody. And the only way that he can touch everybody is to take that evil within himself. And then the light shines through everybody's eyes.
Bobby:And you see that. And it's like Gregory's baited hook. You know, he was a pope long back in the day. And he said, you know, at the cross you really think Jesus is losing. Jesus has lost.
Bobby:The Romans have him up there. Satan has won. But in all reality, in the death on the cross is the victory of Christ over death, hell and sin. And so, you know, when we look at things just through the eyes of of entertainment, we we kind of miss some of these larger things. But when we look at them through the eye of faith, you know, and some things are more blatant than others.
Bobby:I mean, you know, you watch the Lord of the Rings and you see that the burden of this ring becomes something that just destroys other people. And it becomes an overwhelming thing that pulls somebody towards darkness in the other. And you see, you know, Christian themes throughout the Lord of the Rings. You see Christian themes and, of course, the Chronicles of Narnia. But, you know, even in our regular entertainment, things that may have not even meant to to to do that, they become this touching point.
Bobby:Like Hollywood can't help but tell stories that that that involve a redeemer, that involve like the human story touching these points of faith. You know? And so I really enjoy watching movies and listening to music and seeing where is God in that.
T.J.:Yeah. So there there are aspects of culture through our books, through our art, through movies and music that may not have a faith based label or Christian theme. And yet, we can find god's presence in maybe in some of the most profane things of entertainment.
Bobby:And that and that's possible, and that's true. I I will have to say, like, God has has salted my soul a lot on that. I I used to I used to watch a lot of comedies and things. And, now anymore, it just, the nudity and and some of the disgustingness, I I can't watch anymore. So I will say that I do draw the line, but, you know
T.J.:Well yeah.
Bobby:But I I understand. I I may not be you know? And that's where I'm at in my faith journey. I realized that some people can watch some things, like and not be affected about it at all. But, you know, I I couldn't watch Game of Thrones.
Bobby:I was sitting there. I fast forward through most of the episode because it's just basically pornography, you know, in a fantasy world. And I was like I was like, I can't watch this. I was like, I tried because people told me it's so great. It's so awesome.
Bobby:And I I I just I I wasn't into it.
T.J.:Well, I think what we were discussing is that we can bring our understandings of God and our belief in God to even forms of entertainment. Yes. And even even in the forms of entertainment, instead of being repelled or repulsed, we can find the presence of God in those things.
Bobby:Absolutely. And as I said, I'm just saying where I'm at. You know, somebody else may be able to watch that and be like, you know, this person or that character, you know, reminds me of such and such and and and and and relate the gospel to somebody. But, you know, I'm I'm just telling you where I'm at in my journey.
T.J.:Bobby, I appreciate your time and, sharing your faith journey with me. I hadn't heard it before, and, so it's been a real privilege for me to hear God moving through your life. I look forward to hearing in the months years to come how God continues to use you and take that gift of loyalty and your questions. It's carried you this far. Let's see.
T.J.:Let's see where else that loyalty to your friends, to your family, and to God carries you in in the time to come.
Bobby:Thank you, TJ. May God bless you in this. I think this is an awesome, forum to reach people.
T.J.:I've had fun, Bobby. Thank you. Great.
Bobby:Thank you, sir.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Google, or your favorite podcasting site. In our conversation, Bobby talked about how the confession of faith influenced him in becoming a Cumberland Presbyterian. In closing, I read to you from the confession of faith for Cumberland Presbyterian's section entitled Christian Freedom 6.01. Through Jesus Christ, God frees persons from the shackles, oppression, and shame of sin and sinful forces, from the guilt and penal consequences of sin, and enables them to have free access to God. This freedom rooted in love, not fear, enables persons to become who God intends them to be, to bear witness to their lord, and to serve God and neighbor in the vocations of their common life.
