Bowman Vowell - Patience, Loss, Anger, & Love
You are listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. I thought it would be interesting to have a faith conversation with someone who is at the end of their educational requirements in preparation for the ordained ministry. Bowman Vowell is a student at the Program of Alternate Studies, and he is finishing up his last course. He is serving at the Clinton Cumberland Presbyterian Church, west of Oklahoma City. Bowman shares his journey of faith, which includes waiting and family loss, anger, numbness, and the capacity of love that heals all things. Enjoy this faith conversation with Bowman Vowell.
T.J.:What has been your greatest challenge in preparing to be a minister?
Bowman:My greatest challenge has been waiting. You know as well as I do, we have to have 32, 36 classes. And I serve a congregation that was happy with 4. Right? They when I finished the the 4 core classes, they were like, alright.
Bowman:You're good. Let's, let's get you in there, and and we wanna start doing communion. We wanna start baptizing people. And I'm at 36 of 36. I have one class left.
Bowman:2 technically, but I've taken world missions twice now. Hopefully pass them both times. I passed the first one. Hopefully gonna pass this one the second time. It was in place of clergy self care because they couldn't offer it over the summer because I was the only person that needed it.
Bowman:And it would have been just a 1 on 1 Zoom call. So I'm in that one now. I'm hopefully gonna finish up in the next couple of weeks with that, and then I will be finishing, the last course that I have, which I don't know if I should have taken it last because it's intro to the Bible. I feel like I should have been using that all along, but, you know, I'm figuring it out, and, it's good there. But that's my challenge is I'm ready to be in the ministry, if that makes sense.
Bowman:One of the contributing factors to bringing me on board here at the church was finish your coursework as fast as you can, so that you can take care of the church as fast as you can. And so I've been 9, 10 classes a summer, 3, 4 classes, or whatever is offered during the fall and spring. We're almost there. The finish line is in sight.
T.J.:Does that waiting come with a sense of urgency? And where does, patience patience come in to that waiting?
Bowman:Yes. Urgency is always in the back of my mind, and and patience comes in with the urgency. I've had to learn to sit still because I have ADD, ADHD, whatever you wanna call it, just out the wazoo. I'm always moving, tapping my foot, running around, you know, just being dumb, doing something. And patience has taught me or I I'm gonna put it this way.
Bowman:The Lord has taught me patience whether I wanted to learn it or not. Because with that urgency, you know, there are times where there are no courses available, right? I can't take a course or I have to wait to finish this course before I can take another course. And I started taking this is really when I think the lesson sunk in. I started taking History 2.
Bowman:And I think it was just history of the Christian church, too. Yeah. And there was an essay a week, a 1 page essay a week on top of weekly reading. And I was in 3 other classes. Well, technically, 9 other classes, but 3 of them that had to be done at that time.
Bowman:And so I had to reach out to Karen and to Michael Qualls and say, hey, I'm gonna have to drop this class, which when you're on a time schedule, it's like that's not going to work out. You know, I can't be dropping courses and and and patience sat in and and the Lord was like, hey, you're gonna finish. Right. Just trust me. And that was the hardest part was was remembering.
Bowman:Okay. I'm not doing this so that I can start baptisms or start doing, the whole the sacraments right. I'm doing this because the Lord has called me to do something very specific. And so once I started putting that twist on it, it made it a little easier to take a breath to say, okay, we're going as fast as we can. But if something steps in the way, then it's okay.
Bowman:We're we're getting there.
T.J.:Now that you can see on the horizon the goal of being ordained to the word and the sacraments, what has been your favorite, your favorite course, your favorite revelation, you wouldn't have ever imagined about preparing for ministry?
Bowman:I probably have 3. First is, pastoral care and counseling. I'm a huge psychology fan, probably because I need a little bit psychological help, you know, But I've loved to learn about it to be a part of it. And so taking that and then the practicum in in PCC has really opened my eyes to how I can help. And I've even been able to use some of that, not in counseling, but just in conversation.
Bowman:So those two classes really, really stood out to me. And then
T.J.:Where did you do your practicum? Or how did
Bowman:you do your It was through Zoom. That's all they offered. So, it was it was with, doctor Rogers, and really it was more of like a lecture and response type where he would give us pretty good lecture on everything going on through the manuals and everything. And then we would take a case study. We would write a response to the case study or or a response to a different type of disorder or mental disease.
Bowman:And so there wasn't a lot of like field practice. Right? Practicum is a hard word for a Zoom call, but it was more of this is what everybody else has experienced. What are your thoughts since you can't do it practically?
T.J.:Yeah.
Bowman:Does that make sense?
T.J.:Yeah. Alright. You said there were 3. I interrupted you. You nailed 1.
T.J.:What were the other 2?
Bowman:So I would say the the okay. Maybe there's just 2. Because pastoral care and counseling and the practicum are technically 2 different ones. One is very lecture heavy. 1 is very response heavy.
Bowman:The third, and this is just for brownie points because I'm on your podcast, was evangelism. No. I'm teasing. I actually loved our course together. I've I've had to read so many books, so many books, through this process and evangelism without additives is by far the my favorite book I've read since I've started.
Bowman:I'm not a good reader. I'm a slow reader. And so most of the time, I don't get all the way through the books. I get about halfway or or 3 fourths of the way, and then I skim.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Bowman:Or I get, like, the page 3, and then I skim because I just I'm terrible at reading. I read that one from cover to cover, sitting in my hammock outside of the church just because I needed to get out of the office while I read it. That book taught me more about why I do what I do than I think anything else I've had. And and I know I said jokingly it was for Brownie points, but really, our course taught me why God has prepared me the way that he has. That makes sense.
Bowman:Because I do things that I'm like, why would I do that? You know what on earth is the reasoning for that? Or I'll say things and it's like you could have just stayed quiet, you know? Mhmm. And reading that book, it's like, that's what it was.
Bowman:Right? It was the the life that God has led me through up to this point that causes me to say this or that makes me respond this way or react this way. He's using me the way that he called me. Right? And and I love the whole, he ordains those that he calls.
Bowman:He doesn't call those that have been ordained. And that's a 100% right. I mean, he's he's working to ordain me every day, and I'm so unworthy of it and fight him all the time because I'm like, god, you're so smart, but you pick somebody so dumb to run this church, to help with this church. And, you know, it it opened my eyes to. Why I do it, If that makes sense.
Bowman:You know, it's it's who God called me to be in that book. Help me have an understanding of that. And I use it all the time. Not necessarily the book, but I use what I learned from the book to teach others how to evangelize without beating people over the head with a Bible. You know, I had a friend of mine I went to college with who is a believer.
Bowman:He doesn't go to church. He separated himself from the the, quote unquote church body because he's been burned, right? Because there's been pastors out there or just people in the church that have just beat him over the head. And he made a comment one time that he appreciated the conversations we've had because I don't beat him with over the head of the scripture because that's what it is, right? It's taking the word that you read, literally applying it to your life and then using that to teach lessons or to help bring comfort.
Bowman:And and that's what I try to do. And and I can't quote scripture like other people can because some people are good at it, really good at it. And I'm like, oh, I'm so jealous. I wish that my mind worked where I could read a passage and be like, oh, that's from, you know, Zephaniah. It's like, I you know, I don't know that.
Bowman:I know it's in there. If you just Google it, you'll find it. But that's kind of what the book taught me was use you to evangelize. Don't use somebody else or or just the Bible, because sometimes the world is turned away from Jesus. I mean, they're in darkness and he's the light.
Bowman:Right? They don't work together. Use yourself the way God puts you in this ministry. And I use it all the time with especially with, like, funerals or lunches or breakfasts, you know, different different things like that. So I would say those are the 3.
Bowman:And I feel like there's another one that I can't think of off the top of my head that I use Well all the time.
T.J.:We can come back to it. So for full transparency, there are no brownie points. Well, let me back up. So the book you reference is Evangelism Without Additives. It's written by Jim Henderson.
T.J.:And it's probably getting a little bit of age on it in terms of books. So it's probably about 12, 15 years old now. However, it is pretty pertinent. One of the things that you reminded me of, there was a chapter in there called, count count conversations, not conversions or some variation to that. And also about the Brownie points, you took the evangelism course a couple years ago, so your grade is turned in.
T.J.:What you earned is what you earned. So so there's so this wasn't I wasn't baiting you. I did not know the answer. So for everybody who's listening, this is Bowman's honest answer, and he hasn't been paid in any way to respond in the way that he did.
Bowman:That is correct. I have not been does that say paid? Yeah. I have not been paid.
T.J.:Bowman, in your preparing for ministry, what are some of the things you're most excited about after ordination that you will be able to do that you've been patiently waiting to share these gifts and to share your calling with the covenant community?
Bowman:The first thing that I've I've wanted to do is communion. The the perfect part of a a sermon is being able to share the body of Christ and the blood of Christ. And I've had members that wanna do it, and and, you know, we've had to get very creative with getting it done here at the church because we don't have an ordained elder, that has been trained in the the holy sacraments to do, holy communion. And so that's really the first thing is I'm excited for the 1st Sunday when I'm ordained to hold communion. And I think the spiritual part of communion that's going to come with it.
Bowman:Because every time you take communion, you feel the presence of God and and it's either because you're unworthy of taking the cup or because God is doing something right. Those really the two trains of thought. And and either way, communion is meant to be there for those purposes, to remind you of who Christ was and that we're not worthy. But that's why we do it. Or Christ is always moving, and that's why we have to remember him.
Bowman:And so that's what I'm most excited for. After that, I'm excited to just hit the ground running because I've been able to do ministry throughout my coursework, working with all different denominations with throughout the community. We do a ministerial alliance here in Clinton that that is wonderful. It's not competitive. You know, I have a couple of people that came to my church from another, and I'm best friends with the guy that they left his church.
Bowman:And I've had members come from my church and go to theirs, and I'm more ecstatic about the fact that they're in church than I am the fact that they're not here anymore. Because the truth is, I'm not gonna be a perfect preacher. Right? If I was, everybody in town would come to my church and we'd have to have 12 services a day. And and that's not going to happen.
Bowman:Right? God has put there's I think there's like 32 churches in Clinton and we have 9,000 people. Do you know? Right? Yeah.
Bowman:Yeah. I mean, and the sad part is, let's say the average in all of these churches was a 100. There's still almost 6,000 people not getting reached on a Sunday morning. I can promise you most of these churches don't even have a 100. Right?
Bowman:And so being able to go out in the community and not have a lot of my time stuck on writing essays and writing, different formatted works, whatever that is, or reading different books that I have to have read versus I want to have read, so that I can go into the community and and share what I've learned and and just be a part of it. You know, I'd love to be like the president of the ministerial alliance and be able to run these programs for some of the guys who just don't have the time. You know, they've been by vocational or they've got a bigger congregation that requires their full time care. You know, I've been blessed with an opportunity where our our congregation is not tiny. You know, we're we're at 25 on a Sunday morning.
Bowman:But the spiritual growth we've had in 2 years has been phenomenal. And so I don't have to do a ton of pastoral care in the moment, you know. I I I think that they're at a point where they're kind of caring for each other and working with each other and and growing together. And everybody has their faults, right? Every church has its problems.
Bowman:But I've seen a church of hurting members go from from pain and anguish to a church like like Paul, you know, they they want to be in the church. They want to be working towards sharing the gospel and working together. They love each other, you know, and and almost to an unconditional mode. Right? Because I feel like loving like God does is is not possible.
Bowman:Right. He loves in such a way that that no matter what we do, he forgives. But they're getting close. I'll say that. They they love as unconditionally as I think possible for a a body of believers, and we have a good portion of them that don't come in person, but they watch online and and they stay in contact and are in touch.
Bowman:And we have a group chat that we started for our prayer chain and just to be in touch with everybody. And there are people on there that I haven't seen in the church in years, but they're still a part of the body, you know, and they're they're paying attention to what's going on and they're responding. And that's because that's what the church is to them. Right? It's not necessarily just the building.
Bowman:It's the body of Christ that's moving. And so being able to step away has been a blessing because of that. And and I don't say step away from the church, but to put my focus on the community. And that's what I'm hoping for, is to to outreach to the community more So we can grow that body so we can go from 25 to 26 and from 26 to 27, not because I want less red in the pews, but because I want more people to feel the love that we have. And you know, a lot of people think they're Presbyterians or they're they're what is this Cumberland Presbyterian?
Bowman:Do they hold snakes? You know, like, that's that's the thing is they don't understand. And that's exactly right. I laugh all the time because they're like, what's a Presbyterian? Mhmm.
T.J.:It's
Bowman:like, well, let me sit you down. Okay? Because this is a long list of what we are. We are just like everybody else. We just have a little bit of a different belief system, but Christ is king.
Bowman:You know, and living in the Bible Belt of America, the Baptist Church is really like the front runner, if I had to guess. And so for somebody to hear our beliefs compared to that of like a Southern Baptist, Like, so you're not that different. Like, nope, not that different. We just have a weird name. And, and then they laugh about it and and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.
Bowman:I I love where I'm at. I love the opportunities that I'm gonna have and that I have had. And I think I got way off topic from your question, but that's what I want to do is to to outreach more.
T.J.:No. That's what this podcast is about is for us to be able to articulate our faith and and to talk, to communicate. Bowman, you had mentioned earlier about the Lord's supper and celebrating the presence of God. When do you feel the closest to God? Is there a specific experience?
T.J.:Is there something that is replicated? When do you feel that relationship is the closest for you?
Bowman:Sunday mornings at about 11:45, there is a 3 minute window where I'm done preaching. Everybody's left the building. My wife has taken our foster kid home and I'm by myself and I can reflect on what the spirit just did. And it's bliss. You know?
Bowman:There's no words to describe it, really. Not because it was a powerful message, and I'm changing the world one message at a time. I love to say that, but it's not me. Right? The spirit is moving.
Bowman:So rapidly and I just grab on for dear life and that and and being able to slow down after that ride and. I don't even remember the message most of the time. It's more of just the feeling of of joy that overcomes you knowing somebody just heard the word.
T.J.:Are you alone when this happens? Do you intentionally carve out this time? And where? Is this inside the church? Is it in your office?
T.J.:Is it in the parking lot? Is it in the hammock?
Bowman:It it's in the car, actually, which is dangerous now a time. You know, it's been a 105, so the car's sitting at, like, 115 when you get in it. But it's I've got a 4 minute drive home, maybe. Mhmm. And it's that 4 minutes of what did you just do, God?
Bowman:You know? And I've started being able to get it on my morning commute to work. Instead of driving, I've started walking. I've been blessed to live in a community where there's one major road that I have to cross. And 3 cars go by when I'm there in the morning.
Bowman:You know, like, that's how major of a road it is. And so I've been able to walk to the church, and Sometimes I'll play on my phone and just enjoy the peace with God. This morning, I got to pray and do a little bit of my Bible study because I got a little different morning routine this morning, not because of this, but just a couple of things that come up. So I got to pray and talk to him and read a little bit about the scriptures and The passage was about being a light and not covering that light. And they referenced the commercial We'll leave the light on, and I don't remember which hotel chain it was.
T.J.:I think it was Motel 6.
Bowman:I think you're right. I think
T.J.:that's what it is.
Bowman:I think you're exactly right.
T.J.:Motel 6, Motel 8. We'll leave the light on for you. I don't
Bowman:know. Something like that.
T.J.:I haven't heard one of those in years.
Bowman:It's yeah. It's been a while. But they referenced that. And and as I'm walking to church, the sun is up. It's it's still semi cool because it's, you know, it's not 100 degrees quite yet.
Bowman:And you can just hear God. And this morning, it was trash day. So there was dumpsters by. So you really have to be careful which side of the street you walk on. But even through the muck, you can see and feel God.
Bowman:And it's it's been a blessing, you know, to be able to encounter him. And. And you know, aside from those 2, I could go on for days. I like, you know, I see God everywhere and I feel God all the time. And it's something that I've had to learn was God and not just Happy feeling right and and I'm probably naive to a lot of this because.
Bowman:I want to be right. I want to experience God in everything that I do. I don't want it to be. Well, I'm just happy today. It's a good day.
Bowman:Right? I want it to be God was with me today. And so we, we have a foster son living with us, and he's he just turned 1 Saturday. And so on top of turning 1, he had double ear infection, sore throat, and was sick. He had had major congestion, and it was, you know That's
T.J.:a that's a memorable birthday. I hope he doesn't remember it.
Bowman:I hope not too. He, he had a great day, but, oh, he was hurting. But a couple of days before when he first started to getting sick, being here at the church, I'm the only one here. We don't have a secretary. If I need to go check on him or take care of him, you know, I can always step away.
Bowman:My wife had a doctor's appointment, so I got to go be with him. And he fell asleep on my chest, which he doesn't do all the time, and just laid there for, like, 2 hours. And I kept having the realization. This is God. You know, and he's breathing and he's wheezing trying to get a good breath.
Bowman:But God was there, you know, and he wakes up in the morning and he's just gross because he's got snot and all sorts of stuff. But God's there, you know, and and then being able to spend time with my wife when we put him down and and we could both be on our phones, but as long as we're in the same house, you know, it's it's bliss because we live such a hectic life and things always seem to be happening. So just being able to be together. God is present and and that's where I feel him is is when I take I guess that's the real takeaway is I I feel him when I take a second to realize he's there.
T.J.:Yeah. That reflection. Yeah. And you had started at the beginning of our conversation. You were talking about waiting.
T.J.:Is this your first, foster care opportunity?
Bowman:It's actually our second. We, we had one, a pair of girls come into our care, and they were with us about 18 hours. And and they had a couple of of I don't see issues because it's not their fault. Right. There were just things that we couldn't take care of and help them.
Bowman:And so they had to go, to another family that has had them since, and they've thrived. And that was wonderful. And then we had a pair of boys that came and lived with us. One was 2, almost 3, and one turned 6 while he was with us. And you became a parent overnight.
Bowman:You know, we don't have our kids. We have a couple of dogs who are probably better than than they should be. Right. We need some mangy mutts running around to remind us what life is like. And so we became apparent overnight to these boys, and we had them about 3 months, or maybe just over 3 months, I guess I should say.
Bowman:And love them to death. And and their parents asked us to be their godparents, You know, because we got to know their parents through this ordeal and and that's kind of the goal for for our current foster child is to to know his mom and to grow a relationship with her and and see what God does, you know, because it's been a blessing.
T.J.:What has, being a foster parent taught you about yourself?
Bowman:There's a next level to being tired. You know, with the newborn, it's like, okay. It makes sense. You gotta feed them every few hours. You you know, with with foster kids, it's more of They don't know who I am and they don't know who my wife is.
Bowman:They don't know who our dogs are. They don't know what town they're in. They don't know where their parents are at. And so they've a lot of times they wake up terrified and it's either night terrors or they just happen to wake up and it's dark and they don't know. And so just getting up with them makes a whole new kind of tired because it's, it's not like you wake up and you you run to the restroom and you get a drink and you go back to bed.
Bowman:It's you wake up and you're fully awake. Right? You have to be fully awake. And then for me, it's like, well, there's another 2 hours to go fully back to sleep. But really, it's taught me that patience is a necessity.
Bowman:Mhmm. You know, I can't get in a hurry. I can't make things happen faster than they need to. Everything takes time, especially healing, you know, what they call a trauma brain, a child's brain that has gone through something, some kind of trauma in their life. Experiencing them growing through that, not past it, not overcoming it, but growing through it takes time.
Bowman:And and watching them is painful because you just wanna say, this is how you fix it. Right? This is this is what makes it better. But it didn't work that way. You have to be patient.
Bowman:Yes. You have to trust that God is in control a lot.
T.J.:And everything is new for that new person and overwhelming and, and then you as the caregiver just trying to figure out the best way that you can. So you're kind of in the you're in the game together, learning to be a parent and then learning to grow into this beautiful world that we're a part of that's big and scary and wonderful and all those things wrap together. Yep. Bowman, have you always been a person of faith in Jesus Christ? Is it something that you grew into?
T.J.:Let's talk a little bit about your the beginnings of your faith journey.
Bowman:Yeah. So I was born and raised here in Clinton at the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Del Nies came to the church in 1994, with his wife, Doris. And when I was born, his wife kept me in the nursery. So I've been I've been in the church my whole life, all 27 years.
Bowman:That doesn't mean there weren't times when I I really wanted to have a conversation with God about his parenting style.
T.J.:What would be an example?
Bowman:So there was a period of time when I was in the 8th grade going into my freshman year of high school. A really hard time for any kid. Right? Terrible. We had 5 deaths.
Bowman:In the family within that 12 to 24 month period. And I was just mad. Oh, I was so mad. And then that anger turned to to sorrow and grief until eventually I just quit feeling anything, and I call it being numb. That was my numb period.
Bowman:And it's funny how God works when you're numb because he's still moving and he's still working. You just don't feel it. And I remember. I was at church camp. It was a series of 3 church camps that God used to soften my my heart because it was hard.
Bowman:I didn't feel a thing. And I went to one camp through the Methodist Church. It was called Youth Force. They take you to a location. They build you up while you build up something else, whether it's a house or a fence.
Bowman:And we were in Gaimed, Oklahoma, building a garage for a family there or no. I'm sorry for a. It was a home for. Mothers who were victims of domestic abuse or domestic violence. And there was a garage where they if they couldn't bring them in because of legalities.
Bowman:They kept this garage stocked with whatever items you might need, clothes for kids, food, whatever. Or technically, they weren't taking care of this person, but this person could could sneak in and and find a safe place to go. And so we were building up the inside of this garage, making it, usable and. There were some men there that were godly men that had, you know, one of them was. I think he was almost 80 at the time.
Bowman:And he was up on a ladder running a skill saw. At 80 years old.
T.J.:And you're in the 8th grade?
Bowman:Yeah. Well, at this point, I this has actually been 3 years. So I was going into my senior year at this point. So I was numb for a good 3 years where God was like, hey, I'm still moving and I was like I don't even know who you are anymore, right? I I had I had and I was still going to church and I would still pray, but nobody was answering.
Bowman:It's like I'd pick up the phone and I wouldn't even hear a dial tone, you know? But I was at this camp and and they called me a man. Because I I my parents blessed me with a good work ethic. My dad always has a form and had had had has a form has had a form since I was a baby. And we'd go out to the farm and we'd work, and that's just what you did.
Bowman:That was just part of life. And so when we got to this youth force, you just worked. That's what you did. And then I went to another church camp called Falls Creek here in Oklahoma. It's a Baptist Church camp and.
Bowman:I was only there for a few days because I ended up having to leave to go to another church camp. But while I was there, I got to just be away from everything. You know, there was no phones. There was no life. It was just camp and I got to be a camper for a few days And then I got to come to our Red River camp, the Cumberland Presbyterian camp.
Bowman:And I don't remember what the message was about. I think I know who preached it, but I'm not 100% sure. All I know is that for the first time in 3 years, I cried after the message at camp, and it was one of the last nights. And camp did what it was for. Right?
Bowman:It reached someone who had had been so upset that they turned the the knob off. They were done. They were mad at God. And, he opened my eyes at that moment to see what could be, What might be? I'm pretty sure when I got back, I preached my first sermon.
Bowman:Ever. And if I remember right, it was about being God's rubber band because that's what made sense to me, where he'll stretch you and stretch you, but when he lets go, you snap right back to where you're supposed to be.
T.J.:Did you let go of that anger in that moment at camp, or was it something gradual? And what did it feel like?
Bowman:I let go of a lot of it in that moment. The rest of it was gradual. You know, I dumped about half half the bucket out. And it was relief. For the first time in a long time, I felt peace.
Bowman:You know, something that I didn't think was even possible. You know, I'm I'm 16, 17, 18 years old, doing the same thing every other kid is around me. I just didn't see God. You know, there he he wasn't there. There is no God there.
Bowman:And looking back
T.J.:And you were angry at
Bowman:God. Oh, so mad. So mad. I wish I and I I think this all the time. I wish I would have known of Psalm 51 back then.
Bowman:I I say 51. I told you I'm not good at quoting scripture. I think it's on 51 where David has a conversation with God and and he says the things that I wish I would have told God. You know, he says, what on earth are you doing, man? Like, if you really are God, then you should be better than this.
Bowman:But then at the end of the psalm, he's like, but I still love you and I still trust you. And that's kind of what it felt like was I was finally able to tell God, hey, I'm still upset. It's not as bad, but I'm still upset. But I trust you. And, you know, looking back through that time, a friend of mine I met in 7th grade.
Bowman:And he was a Hindu. And believed in all the the Hindu gods. And I remember the 1st day of school, he had on his dress clothes, came from India, had on his dress clothes, and was showing me pictures of his gods on his phone. And I was just curious, you know, what What are you you expecting? And I told him about my God.
Bowman:It was a brief conversation. We started getting closer and becoming friends. And one Wednesday night I had said, hey man, you want free food? The church is is feeding us and I'm still numb. I'm still frustrated at God.
Bowman:But I still went to church. And it wasn't but a couple years later. This happened, you know, 9th, maybe 10th grade. Closer to my senior year, this same friend comes up to me after a football game and he says, hey, man, I need to talk. I'm like, okay, let's go talk.
Bowman:You know, not not thinking anything of my faith of what God has done for me. Just of I'm here to talk, man. I'm your friend. So we go. We come to the church parking lot that I'm currently sitting at.
Bowman:We walked to the sign on the yard that has been there since I was born and we sat on top of the sign as he gave his life to Christ. It wasn't me, right? I was numb. I was mad, but looking back. Even then, I could see God moving.
Bowman:You know, I didn't invite him to church because I was expecting to save his soul. I wanted a friend at church to eat dinner with. Right. I wanted somebody to hang out with and God was like, hey, by the way, something miraculous is going to happen from this. And I know you're not listening.
Bowman:I know you don't care, but you will. And looking back, that's exactly what happened the whole time God was talking to me and he was telling me things that I wish I would have just listened, you know, and and paid attention to. But I wouldn't be who I am today without it.
T.J.:Bowman, what did you do with this newfound release, from anger? You know, you're 18 around 18 years old. Said you dropped half of it and there there's a sense of freedom, I I would imagine, that comes with that. So what did you do with that newfound freedom?
Bowman:I had actually started the FCA, the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, During this time, I was able to experience that for the first time as is a believer, which sounds crazy, but looking back, that's what it felt like. I was able to feel my friend's salvation, and and another friend of mine was able to have a very similar conversation. I was able to have those talks about God that I've always needed to have that I just didn't really care to do. You know, it's like it's almost like I got lazy. And I just why am I gonna talk about something I'm not passionate about?
Bowman:And the passion started to seat back in. And, it's kind of funny because I think my dad knew all along where I would end up because he and he says this, if you ever, if you ever talk to my dad, he'll probably tell you the story about how he told me I had to go to college and get a degree before I could be a preacher. He'll tell you that 100%. I never dreamed of being a preacher even after this happened. But God was starting to pave the way.
Bowman:I preached a couple of times off and on. The messages started to to make more sense. I started to pay more attention. I was able to have conversations with people and actually pay attention and be a part of that conversation. I was able to go to college and and be open minded and not be just mad.
Bowman:Because that's what it is. You get so mad, and you get so torn away from any type of joy because you just don't want to feel it right, because you want to be, oh, woe is me. Pity me. I'm sad. And I did that a lot.
Bowman:You know, I I remember when I would pray and then I felt like God wasn't responding. It was, where are you, God? It's not, hey, would you help me? Right? It was more of a a childish conversation where it's like, I want, I want, I want.
Bowman:Now, now, now. You know, if I was a little kid, I'd be stomping my feet in the grocery store. And after this, it was. Thank you. You know, you haven't given me the chance to get rid of all this anger and all the pain.
Bowman:But what you've done has been phenomenal. And I was able to tell him thank you for the first time, you know, and and experiencing him say you're welcome. You know, not that that he not that it was verbal or auditory, but just through that feeling. We talked about it earlier. Just that feeling, you know, it's it's incomprehensible, but it's there.
T.J.:Well, how did your calling into ministry fit into all of this?
Bowman:So if we fast forward a little bit to about two and a half years ago, 3 years ago, I guess about 3 years ago, we had another camp come up and I had the chance to preach at the camp. It was to
T.J.:You're you're a lay person. You're you finished school. Kinda give some context.
Bowman:Yeah. So I had moved away from Clinton. I was living in Yukon, Oklahoma at the time, which is up by Oklahoma City. I was working at Orkin Pest Control as a sales inspector. We had found a church, weren't really that involved.
Bowman:You know, we were going on Sundays if we could get ourselves up and going and, we weren't 100% sold on every church we went to. And this opportunity came about and. I don't know why. I think maybe they had called and asked if I could preach at the church beforehand and I don't know that I was a 100% ready yet or maybe I did and it was just a quick I don't remember a 100% that part. But they called about this camp and I was like, yeah, let's do it.
Bowman:You know, let's I'd love to go to camp without even thinking. And my wife was like, wait a second. You need to think about it. And she was a little hesitant. And when time came down to make the decision, I was like, oh, she's right.
Bowman:I should be very hesitant. And she was like, no, you need to do this. It's like, wait a second. You just said to be hesitant like a month ago. And, honestly, if it hadn't been for her, I don't know that I would have taken it.
Bowman:I would have stepped away and and said, well, you may need to find somebody else. But because of her her diligence, her prayer life, she's like, you need to do this. And I I went into this camp and it just so happens that this church had, was getting ready to separate ways with a pastor at the time. And one of the members was like, hey, I think you might be a good fit. And this member changed my diaper when I was a baby.
Bowman:She watched me when my parents were out of town, her and her family. She was like a mother to me growing up. And she said, I think you could fill this spot. And I'm like, okay.
T.J.:Had ministry crossed her mind before then?
Bowman:Not for a long time. There was there was this after my, my period of numbness when when I had finally been revitalized and and refurbished or renewed, there was a little bit of time when it's like, okay, I could do this. And and I think that's when my dad really said, no, you got to go to college first. You know, and and everybody always told me you're you're gonna be a preacher one day. And I just never saw it.
Bowman:It didn't fit. I was like, yeah, but I'm not that perfect. You know, I'm I'm screwed up beyond belief. They're like, yeah, we'll see. You know, and and coming back now, they've they've told me I've known this was happening for years.
Bowman:It's like, well, you could have told me and made me believe it. Come on now. Like, what are you doing here? And, and so, yeah, it was there, but it had been a long time since I think that relationship had been blossomed like that. As Christ put it, I was starting to get lukewarm.
Bowman:And he was like, hey, I've got plans for you and you can't be lukewarm if you're going to do them. And so I started my coursework in, 2019. The church shut down in March of 2020. And I looked at God and I said, are you kidding me? I uprooted my family.
Bowman:I switched my careers, and you're gonna shut the whole place down. But God just kind of chuckled, I think, and opened up another opportunity. And we started preaching from a trailer in the parking lot and we've gone from there. You know, now we're obviously back inside, but it without my wife, I don't think I would have answered the call. I will put it right there.
T.J.:It sounds like your wife and the Clinton church recognized gifts inside of you. Maybe you weren't able to see it because of periods of anger.
Bowman:I I think you're right, and, what a blessing it is to have other believers around to see things that God's doing that you don't see.
T.J.:Bowman, you were fortunate and are fortunate to be a part of the church that that fostered you, fostered gifts, gave you opportunities as a teenager, a young young adult, exercise some of those gifts and experiment and try and explore. And those are wonderful places within the community of faith of being able to to foster those gifts. Speaking of the church, what are some of the other things that the church as an organization, as a community of people? What are we doing really, really well?
Bowman:I mentioned it earlier. We love like nobody's business. And I think in the world today they will tell us. The Church doesn't know how to love. They've they forgot that part.
Bowman:And there's even songs, you know, and I think that's for some people, that's true for some parts of the body. Yeah, they've forgotten what the love of God is, but I think there's a lot more love going on than people realize. Without it, I don't know how we would be still relevant. You know? We figured love out.
Bowman:And and they've known it from the beginning, and they've passed it on. And if that's the only thing we get right, I think we're still doing what God's called us to do.
T.J.:Right. So those are some of our best moments as a church. What are we really just missing? What are some of our our blind spots?
Bowman:Are you talking about the body of Christ, the the denomination? What do you Yeah. All of it. All of it. I think a big portion of it is missing technology.
T.J.:That's a blind spot.
Bowman:It's a blind spot. And there are some churches that have utilized it. And I watch their messages, you know, and then there are some that have have abused it and have turned it into something it shouldn't. But I think there are a lot of churches out there that if they would just adopt a little bit more, their reach would be significantly further. And then on top of technology, sometimes I think we forget just how broken we can be And and not that I forget how broken I am.
Bowman:Sometimes I forget how broken you are. Right? And I and I put expectations on you that you can never meet or maybe that you shouldn't have to meet. Right? Because we're Christians, we should be perfect, right?
Bowman:Let's let's be the church. Let's go change the world. Let's let God change the world and let him use us to do it and and quit holding each other to expectations that they can't meet to to un unreachable, unobtainable standards.
T.J.:Wise words from somebody who has been waiting and waiting to enter into the ministry and to be an ordained Cumberland Presbyterian minister. Because it's a hard thing to do. Amen.
Bowman:Waiting, waiting, waiting.
T.J.:Well, as someone who has, been raised and, nurtured and encouraged and fostered by the church, what hopes do you have for it in the future?
Bowman:The biggest one that I've I've already seen start is a spiritual revival. The church has grown spiritually in two and a half years exponentially beyond what I ever would have imagined.
T.J.:Well, let me let me pause you there. What does that mean, from your perspective? The spiritual revival, what what do the fruits of that look like?
Bowman:Love. And I think that's why I'm I'm passionate about the love the church has now because I've seen a broken and a hurting congregation grow into love into. A place where I didn't think that they would be for a long time. And my conversation with you now is completely different than it would have been 2 years ago. Not that I didn't love them, but the the challenge has changed, if that makes sense.
T.J.:Yeah. And and the response to those challenges.
Bowman:Exactly. And and a lot of my early sermons were on on the spiritual warfare, not because I knew it was coming, but because God knew it was coming. You know, I'd start reading the scripture. I'm like, what? Why did that stick with me?
Bowman:You know, why is that something I'm passionate about right now? And I and I preach a series on it. And looking back, it's like, oh, you did have a plan, God. I see what you're talking about now. Anything else you need me to do?
Bowman:You know, it's it's one of those where it's like, okay, God, what what's next? Because we've seen this congregation go from from hurting, like we said, to loving one another, to loving the community, to take on roles that I would have never expected, from people that I would have never fathomed wanted to take on those roles. And it's because they love each other. You know, it has nothing to do with me, has nothing to do with my preaching as much as I'd like to say it did. It really doesn't.
Bowman:It has everything to do with the word and with God's use of everything that they've been a bit and been able to absorb and to to overcome. You know, in a world of COVID nineteen, in a world of of pandemic. Being able to absorb the pandemic and then regurgitate love is unfathomable unfathomable to the world. They don't get it, but the church has figured it out.
T.J.:And that may that may be that experience may have to may have to be able to, I think, experience anger, loss, to know that there's a there's an alternative. And I could be wrong. Now that I've said that out loud, I could be wrong, but there is some warrant, there is some merit there of being able to to experience pain and suffering and know to inflict pain and suffering on others does no good. You know, there has to be an alternative. There has to be.
T.J.:And that alternative you've kept referring to is love. Love for God, love for others.
Bowman:Yes. I I agree, and I think the merit is 100% there. I don't know if you've ever seen the Dark Knight trilogy, the Batman movies. Yeah. One of the quotes when Batman takes the fall for Harvey Dent at the end of The Dark Knight, I'm getting real nerdy here, is it's always darkest before the dawn.
Bowman:Well, that's 100% true. You don't have a victorious light if there's no darkness to escape it.
T.J.:Yes. Speaking speaking of movies, is Bowman, good segue. You alluded to the Christopher Nolan Batman trilogy. Are there movies? Are there books?
T.J.:Is there music that have been impacting your faith, impacting your life, impacting your ministry?
Bowman:There's one book that I I read quite a bit. It's called the Bible. If you've ever heard that. I'm not a reader. I'm really not, and we talked about this a little bit earlier.
Bowman:I'm just so slow at it, but I can always read the Bible and I started Genesis the other day just because I was doing a Bible study over it in my Wednesday night class, and we were talking about, Abraham and my Abraham and Isaac. And so I started reading that story, and this was on Wednesday right before class, just to get a refresher. And I start about 5. By 5:30, I was at the Inogenesys, and I don't know how. I I didn't mean to.
Bowman:It just happened. I can always read the Bible. So it's really one of the only books I do a lot of reading on.
T.J.:Alright. So the the Bible, Jim Henderson's Evangelism Without Additives. Yep. You mentioned Batman. Are there other films?
Bowman:There are. There's a movie called Forever Strong. It's a rugby movie, which I know nothing about rugby, but there's some pretty, pretty high build cast in this this movie and the main focus is on a rugby team who follows the word of God, but it's not it's not like a Bible beater type film. You know, it's it's very real. It talks about very real topics.
Bowman:And so I've always related to it because it was one of those like, wow, that guy actually went through life and then found God. And then another one that I'm really bad about wanting to watch are horror movies. I love scary movies And it's it's not good for my ministry necessarily. But as as as I was looking at this question, Okay, because because you're not the first person to ever ask me what movies have inspired my ministry. And I've always tried to figure out why.
Bowman:Why am I so drawn to these films? And I think I figured it out. So bear with me for a second. And and this would take even like the Jurassic Park movies, right? They're more of like a creature feature more than a horror film, but I'll catch myself watching these movies.
Bowman:And as I'm watching them, I will put myself in the shoes of, like, the main hero or whatever. Mhmm. And I will add faith to the mix. And the movie changes when you add faith to the mix. And and I'm not talking about like The Exorcist, right, where faith changed the movie literally because that was the point.
Bowman:I'm talking about, like, the Halloween franchise with Michael Myers. If you're not horror movie guy, don't watch it, right? I'm going to put that out there. And and I I avoid referencing horror films during my sermons because I use a lot of illustrations, but I will not let myself use horror films because I don't want somebody to go watch them without the right mindset, and I'll put that out there. But in these movies, the main bad guy is unkillable.
Bowman:It's not possible. He always finds a way, comes back, whatever. And so I'll put myself in the shoes of the hero or of the the Laurie Strode, right, or or Jamie Lee Curtis is her name and her afternoon. I'll put myself in her shoes and I will think, what would I do as a as a God fearing, Bible reader, child of God? What would I do?
Bowman:And I've started adapting that to all the horror films I watch. And I've started noticing how, even in films where where the director obviously isn't a believer, or if he is, it's like, what church is he going to? You know? You know what I'm talking about. 1 of those?
T.J.:Yeah.
Bowman:They put Christian references in films all the time, and they don't even realize it. You know, because it, the Bible is the perfect story. It has a little bit of romance, it has a little bit of horror, has a little bit of violence and action. Every movie wants to be the Bible, every single one of them. Horror movies, believe it or not, are closely related to Scripture through everything that they do.
Bowman:Think of an unkillable evil that we face every day. Right? I mean, he shoots flaming arrows at us. Right? And and eventually he'll be thrown into a lake of sulfur.
Bowman:God has taken a a demonetized genre, And he's opened it up for a light to shine. And and I'm blown away by it because I watch it. I don't I shouldn't watch them, but I watch them. And and it's because of God moving that I can.
T.J.:Well, you know, as you said, you you're bringing your faith into the movie and wondering where its existence or how it would change the outcome of the of the film. And there's that element of, you know, I think a lot of the horror flicks dive into the question and attempts to answer, what if, there was only evil or is there only evil? And what it would look like if it was manifested, you know, physically or supernaturally? And then what if there is just a sliver of goodness or hope or love? And how does that impact, you know, the character of the story?
T.J.:So I think you're on to something in terms of the retelling of themes that are found within the old and new testament can be found in our books, our movies, our music, our culture. Speaking of what speaking of which, any music that has impacted your faith?
Bowman:Oh, I'm a huge country music guy. I listen to country music all the time.
T.J.:Okay.
Bowman:I sneak rap in there occasionally. I've I've changed my my artists now that, I've no longer been numb. So over the past 10 years or so, I've had to change who I listen to. And I want a lot of film scores. I listen to film scores to study too, because I'm a huge movie guy.
Bowman:I don't know if I said that at the beginning, but I love all movies, and I could talk to you for hours about them. And so film scores help me watch the movie without watching the movie, because I can recognize what's happening during these scores. Mhmm. And so I can use them to study or to write an essay or to write my sermons because they keep me focused without having to focus, if that makes sense. And so I use a lot of of film scores or like, not even just scores because scores have no lyrics, but but music from movies that that people have sung or or that they've adopted a little bit and changed here and there.
T.J.:When you listen to the music that is adapted for or specifically for film, when you're listening to it and not watching the film, does it take you back to the scenes or have you created, like, new thoughts or new memories or new emotions based upon the music?
Bowman:Both. It's it starts with the scene because I remember it. And
T.J.:Yeah.
Bowman:And my recall works that way. I I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, but I can tell you a movie I watched one time when I was 12. I I don't know why, but that's how my brain works. And so it starts off that way. When I hear something, it's, like, oh, that's from this movie, and this is what's happening.
Bowman:But, like, oh, that's from this movie, and this is what's happening. But then the sensation that was there when I watched that scene is what I start to remember more. And so, like, one of the movies that I love and and I don't get to watch all that often because my wife doesn't care for it is Interstellar, with Matthew McConaughey. And the reason she doesn't like it is it's too scientific and just out there, which I get. It is.
Bowman:It's a step above sci fi.
T.J.:It requires multiple viewings.
Bowman:Yes. Yes. And then conversations about it. Yeah. But at the very end, when he's getting ready to go through and there's spoilers here, I guess, I should say.
Bowman:When he's getting ready to go through the wormhole at the very end of the movie or the black hole or whatever you want to call it. And he's he's the one doing the dust lines that he he figures out at the very beginning. It's his way of looking back and growing from his past, essentially. And so when I remember that movie and I listened to the film score to that, by Hans Zimmer, it's. It's the feeling I had when I first recognized what he was doing.
Bowman:And I can use that feeling to remember. Hey, I need to look back and remember where I came from, what I've learned, how I've learned it, why I've learned it, And so I use a lot of them to to bring good recall and to grow. Because that's what God's blessed me with. Why? I don't know.
Bowman:He just knew that's what would work best for me. And so if that's what he gave me, I'm gonna use it because that's it's it's dumb not to. I'll put it that way. It's dumb not to use what God's given me.
T.J.:What do you think, some of your gifts are that are specific to Bowman?
Bowman:I'm a good talker. I don't know if you've noticed that, but I can talk about things a lot. My Wednesday night class, you dry I drive them nuts because we're supposed to end at, like, 7:45, and it's mostly 8:10 when we get out of there. So I definitely think speaking and and talking is one of the gifts that God has given me. Being patient and I know I'm not going specifically the spiritual gifts.
Bowman:I am changing them up a little bit, but, being patient is 1 just because I've had to have it. I don't know why. I I don't know why God blessed me with patience, but very few things bother me or irritate me. And if they do, it doesn't irritate me for very long. I'm I'm pretty good at just I'm I'm okay.
Bowman:I'll I'll get over it. So patience in speaking and maybe just Being there, I know that that sounds kind of weird, but. I I really like to just be there for people, whether that's talking to them, just listening, just being in the same room because they need somebody there. I really enjoy being able to do that and a lot of that comes with hospital visits or nursing home visits because you don't get a lot of conversations out of that, but you can see people brighten up when you're there.
T.J.:Yeah. I think I think people recognize, the gift of presence and how meaningful it can be in certain times and situations. I think it requires us to also be aware of those times and situations. Yeah. And maybe that's where the gift part comes in because we can be present physically, but really mentally checked out or emotionally checked out.
T.J.:So I think there's a there's a distinction between the 2.
Bowman:Yeah. And I think that's why I leave hospitals exhausted all the time because it's like, I didn't do anything but sit there. But goodness, I'm tired. You know? And it it is because there is that aspect of I'm not letting myself think about the sermon I need to write or the essay I have due.
Bowman:I'm just here for them, you know, and and it takes patience to do that, I think. And then, the and and the ability to talk to people who have nothing but a hospital room to look at. God knew what he was doing. I'll just put it that way. He he knew what I needed.
T.J.:Well, I pray that all these gifts balance out and work together for you wherever your feet and your voice, since you like to talk, may take you, Bowman. Thank you for sharing your your morning with me and your face journey. And, thanks for the plug for the evangelism course that I teach for the program of alternate studies. I didn't know you were gonna do that. I definitely wasn't baiting you.
Bowman:That that's right. He wasn't. He really wasn't. And if you haven't taken it, I would recommend it. It, it's eye opening to to what you've been doing all along, really.
T.J.:Well, Bowman, thank you. Thank you for sharing your life with me. I appreciate it.
Bowman:Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's been a blessing. I don't always get to to talk to people during the day because I'm here by myself. So I, I love a good conversation.
T.J.:Me too. Thank you, Bowman.
Bowman:Thank you.
T.J.:I probably don't say it enough at the end of the podcast episodes, but want to express it here. Thank you for listening to Cumberland Road. Thank you for your support, your kind words, your encouragement, and your feedback. I've been encouraged by every guest and look forward to reaching out to more and hearing how god is working in their lives. Please share this podcast with other people. Let them know they can find it on Apple Podcast, Google, Spotify, all the different places where you can listen to podcasts. Bowman shared in our conversation a book that was meaningful to him called Evangelism Without Additives by Jim Henderson. And so I close this podcast with a quote from the book. Christians who want to connect with the people Jesus misses the most need a map. We can see the destination. We just don't know how to get there. You'll be glad to know that getting there is simply a matter of living a little more intentionally. It involves being yourself and focusing on others. It's based on everyday things, such as asking questions, listening, giving away your attention, and praying. Each of these perfectly sane activities helps communicate the gospel, and they are things anyone can do.
