Cumberland Road

T.J.: 00:02

You are listening to the Cumberland Road, where I have conversations about one's faith impacting their daily life. I'm your host, TJ Malinovsky. The following is a faith conversation with Brian Gibson, a Cumberland Presbyterian minister serving in Memphis, Tennessee. This is the first time I have sat down with Brian. He shared with me his extraordinary journey. A few years ago, he lost his vision, and this occurred in the middle of his graduate studies as he was preparing for ministry. Brian shares how he is overcoming these challenges. It is a journey of not giving up and having faith and having a strong circle of support in your family and friends. I learned that losing his vision is a part of who Brian is, but it is not who Brian is. I hope you are inspired by Brian's journey as I am. So enjoy this faith conversation with Brian Gibson.

T.J.: 01:20

Brian, thank you for joining me on the podcast. This is, the first time that we've been able to sit down and and have a conversation. We have been in the same room together in different situations in the past, but we've never conversed. And, so I'm looking forward to the conversation that we're gonna have today.

Brian: 01:42

Yes, sir. Me too. Thank you very much for this opportunity.

T.J.: 01:45

So we were talking off mic. One of the questions I had for you as we were trying to get acquainted was, have you always lived in the Memphis area? So how about we start there?

Brian: 01:56

Okay. I was I was born in Memphis. I've parents were my mom was actually from a small town called Bannoye, Mississippi, and my dad was from here. I've lived here, all my all my life except for a few short years when we lived in Alabama where I worked for Bruno's. And, because I've all my work experience comes through, the grocery industry.

T.J.: 02:26

Okay. So was, I'm I'm gonna speak over you for just a minute, but Bruno's is a grocery store or grocery chain?

Brian: 02:32

Grocery store. Yes.

T.J.: 02:33

Okay.

Brian: 02:35

I was a a co manager and was for for a short time, I was, also a store manager when my store manager had a heart attack. So I ran the show while he was out with all of that.

T.J.: 02:53

One of the first jobs I had as a teenager was working in a grocery store, and, I really enjoyed it. And I worked the evening shift, So a lot of the people that I work with were around my age. And, we we all went to different schools because I lived in a in a larger city at the time. And, so it was really neat. I got to make new friends and, you know, you you earn some money, and you learned how to bag groceries, and and stock shelves, and order.

T.J.: 03:26

I mean, I did all those different things. And but you also learn a lot about people as well. And as a teenager, that was pretty formative for me. What would be some of the takeaways for you, Brian, you know, in the grocery industry?

Brian: 03:44

First thing is, well, one one big thing is there's always something to do, whether it's helping someone find something on the shelf or whatever. But the biggest thing is, it helps you have patience. Some people will give you some very strange requests sometimes, and you have to do what they ask. And sometimes people, don't realize that you're a person too and that, that it needs to whether you're 16 or in the in your thirties, it's just people need to work with each other, I guess.

T.J.: 04:31

Yeah.

Brian: 04:32

I know one of the biggest things that that was going on at the time, we were transitioning from paper to plastic, and, that was that was a fun very fun issue.

T.J.: 04:47

Yeah. I would imagine so because for a 100 years, the grocery industry, you know, things were put in bags, paper bags. And even the way that you package and put the items in a paper bag is very different than in a plastic bag.

Brian: 05:07

Yes. In terms

T.J.: 05:07

in terms of weight, the thing I'm a go back a bit. So we'll we'll get to, your faith and stuff like that. But with the paper bag, which is a rectangle shape, you know, you could almost for me, when I was bagging, it was almost like a puzzle. So, you know, how do you evenly distribute the weight, within the bag, you know, and put things in there. You know, things that aren't gonna be crushed.

T.J.: 05:32

And and, and then paper really I'm sorry. Plastic really kind of transforms on, it's no longer a puzzle. It's all about, like, just sheer weight of what you can put in a plastic bag.

Brian: 05:49

Oh, yeah. Very much. That's that's true. But, I think but the biggest thing that I like I said, that I took away was was patience. Yep.

Brian: 06:02

Because everybody is is different. Nobody's the same, and everybody wants their their way. And that's just what you have to do because that's your job at that time.

T.J.: 06:14

You said that you worked it was Bruno's. Right? Was that a Yes, sir. Small, like a family chain grocery store, or was it a big conglomerate?

Brian: 06:24

Bruno's was a really big store, grocery chain in Alabama. They were all over the state and and outside of it just a little bit. They, at one time, they had all of their well, not all of their but most a lot of their executives, were in a plane crash, and most of them passed away. And it really took a big it was a big impact on this on the grocery on that chain. And, they tried to make it, but it was, it was just too hard, I I assume, because they lost, some integral people that that we needed.

T.J.: 07:14

How did you get into this vocation in the young adult years of your life?

Brian: 07:22

Into Grocery. Grocery or to At the grocery?

T.J.: 07:27

Yes, sir.

Brian: 07:29

It was, I turned 16 on February 2nd, and the first thing I did was, go get my license. And then I went to the nearest grocery store because I knew, that's where my friends worked. And I said to put in an application and then kept, begging them for a job, and finally, I got one. So that's that's and I pretty much stayed in the grocery industry from from then to my older years.

T.J.: 08:04

You were telling me off mic that you went from Bruno's to Costco. And Costco, I am familiar with a little bit. Tell me about that transition from 1 grocery industry to, well, really kind of a warehouse industry.

Brian: 08:23

That was, that was a little bit different. It excuse me. Most because you have to you have to pay to shop there. Mhmm. And that was a big transition for me that these people all of these people are paying are paying to be in here.

Brian: 08:42

From there, it, the difference was it was extremely busy. It was, how things were were stacked, how things were stocked, how and the difference in, I wanna say showmanship, how they presented the the goods was totally different. It would be a big box of something out there instead of you taking everything out of the box and putting it on the shelf. It was one big box. Mhmm.

Brian: 09:14

From there, it was, not so much of of you having to use a thought process, of of what you thought would be best, but but someone else in in a different city said this is where we want this. And, of course, the reason would be that's the manufacturer paid for that spot. And that was that was another big thing I had to transition from was making my own decisions what to put on an end cap to somebody saying, hey. They paid for that spot, so that's where we need to have it. Yeah.

Brian: 09:48

Even That was big.

T.J.: 09:50

Yeah. I guess so. Even if it was, maybe not a high ticket item or a seasonal item or some of the some of the variables that you may have had in previous work where you wanted to showcase it on an end cap, this was paid floor space. And Yes, sir. Your input was not needed.

Brian: 10:13

Right. Well, I could do it, but it wouldn't make a difference. Okay. And then well, there's one other thing. In the in the grocery business, we were big on tie ins, like, maybe where you have some grapes, mix in some cheese with it, or, in the meat department, have a stack of, hamburger buns or hotdog buns and that kind of thing.

Brian: 10:41

There are no tie ins in in with Costco. It's just that one thing and that's it. So that moving away from, hey, something has to be tied in with this to this is just this is all that's here is was was different.

T.J.: 10:57

It is a bit jarring as a shopper, when you're in kind of those, warehouse membership club places where one aisle you can be looking at edible products and then the very next aisle could be tires or an electronic. And Yep. So there really is not much, at least as a shopper from my viewpoint, there really isn't much of a transition. It can be very stark as compared to a grocery store where you may go from produce, fresh produce to canned produce, to, you know, box items. And then it sort of makes a little bit of sense.

T.J.: 11:45

Even if you've never been in that grocery store before, there's still kind of an expectation of paper products, and maybe grapes don't aren't gonna be found on the same aisle. Maybe not even on adjoining aisles.

Brian: 12:01

Right.

T.J.: 12:02

And in those larger stores that cater to a wide range of needs, which is a cool thing, is just harder to kind of navigate because there didn't appear to be any type of rhyme or reason of why these things are together. Why are there televisions on the end cap where you also buy bread? I don't see the correlation between those 2.

Brian: 12:27

That was that was one of my big things. I said this doesn't make sense, and they were like, well, we appreciate your opinion, but this is what goes here. So but, there were customers that would say the same thing. So Mhmm.

T.J.: 12:43

I'm sure there business. Yeah. I'm sure there are studies out there that would counter everything that, we have just discussed in terms of moving Yeah. Moving products. But from an outsider's point of view or a shopper's point of view, I just don't see the rhyme or the reason.

Brian: 13:02

Well I I didn't either.

T.J.: 13:06

So we've talked about your your vocation, your your secular work, in, you know, your young adult years. And, how does your Christian faith and your walk and your journey plug into your family life during this time period and your work life and, you know, even your leisure life, were you a regular church goer? Were you, active in the Christian community? Or how did that all work out for you, Brian?

Brian: 13:42

Well, let me let me, go back a little bit. When I was when I was young, I we didn't family wise, we did not go to church very much. Mhmm. So saying that I knew that I knew who God was, and I knew who Jesus was. But as far as my knowledge after that, I didn't I didn't really have anything.

Brian: 14:07

We would well, at least my mom and I, we would try to find churches and you know, of course, we would go to the huge churches that were here in Memphis and are still in and are still here, and I was like, I I don't know anybody. Even if I did know somebody, would I see them here next week? Meaning that it's so big, how could I find anybody that I know? So after a while, we because of job and having to work on Sundays as part of my prerequisite, I had to we just stopped going. We've, we've soon my daughter, when we moved to the house we're in now in Lakeland, Joey Edwards lived right around the corner from us, and his son, Drew, and my daughter, Annalise, and him were friends.

Brian: 15:15

And Annalise came on and said, kid, can we go to Joey's church? Now we we've been to, you know, numerous churches and excuse me. And, just weren't finding a connection. Mhmm. And we walked in to that church, and, of course, Joey was there.

Brian: 15:36

Annalise was glad to see Joey and Andrew and And and

T.J.: 15:42

let me

Brian: 15:42

France and Let me let

T.J.: 15:44

me interrupt you just for a minute, Brian, just for context. So reverend Joey Edwards is a Cumberland Presbyterian minister. And and he was serving a church, at that time. And then his son and your daughter were friends. And so this is just for context, this is leading into your introduction or reintroduction into the faith community.

T.J.: 16:09

Alright. Go ahead. I just wanted to give a context.

Brian: 16:11

It's it's important because, it, but there's another part that I didn't I didn't mention, and I'm and I'm sorry about that. We were to go back a little bit before that, my daughter was in the car with us, and we were driving down I 40. And my daughter, Emily, said, hey. Look. It's the church with the three t's.

Brian: 16:36

And my dumb wife and I looked at each other and said, we've we've got to find a church because that's just we're messing up. It's our fault. It's not hers. It's it's our fault.

T.J.: 16:48

Oh, okay. So she is no. Correct me if I'm wrong, but let me fill in the the gaps here. So along I forty, if if you are in the Memphis area, there is a large church called Bellevue Baptist Church. And they have these very tall crosses that can be seen from the interstate.

T.J.: 17:09

The church is right along I forty. And so you and your family happened to be in the car one day, and she was referencing those crosses as lowercase t's?

Brian: 17:20

Yes, sir.

T.J.: 17:21

Okay. Alright.

Brian: 17:23

So my wife and I looked at each other and said that's just that's not acceptable. We're we have to make a change. Mhmm. Now that's how we move forward into going to Joey's church. We said we gotta find a church.

Brian: 17:39

So we started, we started going to, Joey Evers Church, and we'd liked it very much. And at that time also was the young lady that was his associate pastor. Britney Meeks was there, and she was so good with all the kids and doing things with them. And she was so good with that, we decided to keep to keep going. Now excuse me.

Brian: 18:15

I'm getting over cold. I didn't again, because I didn't attend church anywhere very much. I didn't I was not familiar with the different doctrines that different denominations have. I didn't even think about it, to be honest with you. It was it was church.

Brian: 18:38

Mhmm. But, so we we started going to the church, and it was when I was we were sitting in our spot in the church where because, you know, everybody end up coming to Presbyterian has a church has a seat. And if somebody's sitting in the seat, then they have to they have to move. I'm just kidding. But, so we were sitting in our spot, and, I just felt this this, this tug, you know, with, hey.

Brian: 19:09

This is what you're supposed to be doing. And I said, no. There's there's there's no way I can do that. I I I fought it. So after a little bit, it kind of it I don't wanna say it went away completely, but it it subsided.

Brian: 19:25

So, my brother passed away, and this is all included. My brother, passed away. And, in that passing away, I said, well, I'm gonna do is is, is, funeral. And Joey said, okay. I'll be right here if you need me.

Brian: 19:55

And, I went through it, and I and I knew that there was a part of the Bible somewhere where it's when it dealt with time. So I I chose Ecclesiastes, I believe it's chapter 3, the time where I went through it. And at the end, Joey said, you look like a pastor up there today. And I was like, wow. So I talked to Joey, and Joey said, I said, I think I wanna become a pastor.

Brian: 20:32

What do I need to do? And he said, well, you have to go to seminary. Now remember at this time, I'm I'm 50 years old. I graduated from the University of Memphis in 88. I was thinking back to school.

Brian: 20:47

Gosh. I'm working I'm working a full time job. I mean, how can I go back to school and work a full time job? Mhmm. And, and it's important again to mention from to say that, I I didn't know that much about church except God and how to treat people and who Jesus was.

Brian: 21:12

And so the 1st class I took to ease into it was a introduction to Old Testament with Steve Parish. Now I I know nobody knows him, but I want you to picture a a man walking into class with long hair, a nice shirt, jeans, and sandals. Didn't matter what what time of year it was, whether it was freezing outside or not, Steve had on his sandals. And when he came in with his notes, I looked at I looked at his binder, and he had 2 huge binders. And he said we have 13 weeks to go through all of this right here, so we need to get started.

Brian: 21:55

And I didn't I that's when I realized that I know absolutely nothing. And, I made it through.

T.J.: 22:05

What was your, first impression when, doctor Parrish walked into the classroom? Did he, subvert your expectations of what a graduate studies professor would look like?

Brian: 22:22

Well, if if you watch movies, in one way, yes, but it wasn't really it wasn't really mine, I guess. So I see him, and I'm like and I see the binders, and I'm like, oh my gosh. But, Steve was in and still is, amazing, amazing professor and has such a passion for, for what he does. But to keep moving forward, when I I began I began seminary, that was my first class. And I thought there is I'm not gonna make it through.

Brian: 23:03

I can't I just can't do this. Mhmm.

T.J.: 23:05

Because you're still carrying you're still carrying your full time work.

Brian: 23:10

Yes, sir. And I said there's just there's no way. Plus, I was having trouble with, with my my job that I had at that time, letting me off to go to to go to school. Mhmm. And the good thing is seminary did block classes, which is it's one time for one time a week for 3 hours.

Brian: 23:38

So we worked it out, but I was doing that. I was working, and I was like, there's just I can't get through this. I'm not gonna be able to do it. And my wife, Michelle, who has been my absolute rock through some a lot of issues, a couple more that I'll let you know, who I couldn't have made it through if it hadn't been for her. She was just she was my absolute rock through all of this.

Brian: 24:08

She said, if god's put me put you here, then this is where you need to be. Don't don't don't get so stressed. She said it'll be I'll be okay. We'll get through it. And that's when she said we'll we will get through it, that helped me a lot, because I knew it wasn't I wasn't just on an island by myself that that her and my son, Kevin, and my daughter, Emily, were were there with me as well.

Brian: 24:36

But, as I progressed through and and going through seminary, I lost my mom and my daughter I'm sorry. My wife lost her mom, and I became very badly visually impaired, due to a disease that's called optic neuritis. But, now I can't

T.J.: 25:03

Tell me more. Tell me more. You you've laid a lot on me here. So you lost your brother and then within a relatively short period of time, you lost your mother and then Michelle, your wife, also lost, her mother, one of her parents.

Brian: 25:24

Yes. Yes.

T.J.: 25:25

So you're going through a vocational change. You're trying to answer a calling in a second career. You've lost family members. And then you have you're you're losing your vision. So tell me more about that, what the diagnosis is and what it means and and how it affected you.

Brian: 25:50

Well, optic neuritis is, it it affects your optic nerve. I didn't even know I had it until I went to for an eye exam. But what it necessarily does is, the optic nerve has insulation on it. And if you look at a power cord on anything that you have, it has a power cord. And what the in when the brain talks to your eyes, it sends those waves through your optic nerve.

Brian: 26:19

But if you lose some of that insulation that's on your optic nerves, then it it blinks some of that out. It loses through the transition that you lose some of that, and it causes you to lose your sight. But, it's it's difficult. It's something that can't that can't be fixed. All they can do is try to keep it from getting worse.

Brian: 26:44

And I do have some great doctors, both at Vanderbilt and here in Memphis, that are fantastic.

T.J.: 26:51

So this loss loss of vision, is it, digression that is quick? Is it gradual? And at what level of loss of sight does that mean? Are you still able to read and drive? Just kinda walk me through this, Brian.

Brian: 27:08

Okay. Reading, yes, I can do. I have a Kindle, and I can enlarge the print on it that helps me so I can see. Sometimes I'm optic neuritis also causes blanks, so you don't you miss a word and you think, well, that didn't make any sense. And you go back and read it again, but then you realize you missed a word.

T.J.: 27:30

Oh, so it actually creates little blind spots. So Yes, sir. You at times may not even see the complete sentence or paragraph because there's blockages there.

Brian: 27:42

Yes, sir.

T.J.: 27:43

Oh, man.

Brian: 27:44

And, so I went one morning, I woke up, and I was completely blind. And I said, Cheryl, I can't see. I gotta go to the doctor. So the doctor, said that, yeah. Right now, he's completely blind, but we're gonna try something, and, hopefully, we can get it to regress a little bit, but if not, then it's just where he's at.

Brian: 28:15

And I didn't I didn't like that answer. So

T.J.: 28:19

Well, that had to be terrifying to wake up. When you went to bed, you were able to see and then to wake up and not be able to see. That'd be frightening, Brian.

Brian: 28:31

Yeah. It was. It very much was. It it, it scared me, and she thought I was kidding at first. I said, I can't see.

Brian: 28:39

And, the doctor, he said, well, right now, he is blind, and he we're gonna try to get it back. And I got back a little bit of it, but, of course, not all of it. And I'm completely completely blind in my left eye and, partially blind in my right eye. But, they got back a little bit, and, because of because of everything, I'm legally blind, and I can't drive. Well, I could drive, but it just wouldn't be good for everybody.

Brian: 29:17

Okay. And,

T.J.: 29:20

Well, if you don't if you're comfortable, let let's live here for a few minutes because, you are an employee at Costco and you're a seminary student and a husband and a father and and many other things, Brian. And then this hits you in the midst of all the things that you're involved in. You're trying to respond to a calling to ministry, which requires you to read and to write.

Brian: 29:52

Yes.

T.J.: 29:53

So what's going through your mind when you have this diagnosis and then this sharp decline in your sight?

Brian: 30:03

Well, I thought I, I called, Tiffany McClung, who was the chaplain at seminary. I said, I think I'm gonna have to to stop. She was also on me with our probation or care team, which is something you have to meet before regularly, when you're becoming a pastor in the denomination. And I said, I don't think I can keep going. This is what's happening.

Brian: 30:29

I guess I gotta quit. And she said, do you wanna quit? I said, no. I don't want to, but what else what other choice do I have? And, so excuse me.

Brian: 30:44

And she said, well, give me give me just a little bit of time and before you make that decision. And, Tiffany McClung, she, sat down with Barry Anderson, who was I I believe he would be a dean of students. This would be his title. I'm not really sure what his title was, but he was an excellent man who helped me tremendously. And Courtney Pace, who also, excuse me, was a was a professor.

Brian: 31:21

And she said, and they all said, told me this is what we'll do. You have as long as you need to take the class. So keep going and don't stop. Okay. And we'll get you through this.

Brian: 31:41

And her her words of encouragement as well as Tiffany and and Barry were were tremendous. And every time it was are you getting everything you need in class? Is everything going okay? What else can we do to help you? And it really brightened up my my attitude that, okay, I had a stumbling block, but god has brought me through it.

Brian: 32:08

So I'm still here.

T.J.: 32:11

So instead of

Brian: 32:12

push through it.

T.J.: 32:13

Instead of being overwhelmed by discouragement, and you would have every right to be discouraged, there were people in your life that really walked alongside you and helped you.

Brian: 32:30

And, again, it like I said, my wife, Michelle, she was she was truly my rock. And even my kids, as young as they were at the time, they kept telling me that they you can do it, daddy. You can do it. Don't don't stop. And I I don't know if you ever heard your your child encourage you before, but especially if it's something that's to me is as serious as what I was wanting to do and what I was going through going through is is a tremendous thing.

T.J.: 33:04

Well, Brian, Brian, how did this affect your faith, in Christ? Because you you're encountering obstacle after obstacle, loss of family members, juggling work, decline in your vision, and you still have this calling. I for me, I've just for me, there would be moments of anger and frustration. And hopefully, I'd be able to work through those. But I and I I'm not interjecting.

T.J.: 33:42

I'm not saying that you were angry. But I am kind of curious, you know, were there moments of anger? Like, man, you have this calling and yet this is happening. How do I overcome these things? So, again, circle back around.

T.J.: 33:56

I've rambled a bit. How did this impact your faith, this life changing event?

Brian: 34:06

Well, it was, to be honest, yeah, I was I was upset. I was, I said, god, why did you call me into this and then put me through all of this to when I'm trying all I'm trying to do is to spread your word. Mhmm. And it was through a lot of a lot of prayer and a lot of, a lot of friends outside like like Joey. Mhmm.

Brian: 34:37

There's some people I have a lot of respect for. Joey is is definitely one of them who kept who kept me, kept going. They kept me saying it's everything's gonna be okay. We're gonna get through this. And I I go I I say a lot about we, but it's not it wasn't you or you were gonna get through this.

Brian: 34:55

It was we are gonna get through this. So when we say we, it's I I feel okay. I'm not the only one that has to do this. I have a I have a group that's gonna help me. Mhmm.

Brian: 35:06

And sometimes I go back and I look at, you know, the disciples and some of the things that they that they went through, and yet they were they still stood with Jesus. And, except for the Easter time, but they still Right. Still still stood with Jesus. And, that that's it's, it's having friends. It's having encouragement.

Brian: 35:39

It's having, you can do this, and we're here with you. So you're not alone.

T.J.: 35:46

Right. There there's something powerful in knowing that, you're not alone in the shouldering of burdens and changes in life, however sudden, to not be overwhelmed by those, and having and I think that's maybe one of the things that makes the Christian community, the faith community unique, compared to other communities and that we can be a part of and circles that we are a part of is having people that we know and maybe even making new friends who, again, are able to walk alongside of us sharing those burdens and to alleviate some of the pains that come with life.

Brian: 36:39

Yeah. That's that was incredible because, I mean, even when I went to class at seminary, it was if Barry was there, then he would force me to the elevator. If doctor Pace was there, then she would help me, because I don't know if you people are either you have to walk the stairs. You can take the elevator. And the main building is the only one that has an elevator, and the other ones have stairs.

Brian: 37:08

But, it's just having somebody to to be with you and taking the journey with you and uplifting you and helping you and praying with you, I think, is one of the biggest ones that that would happen. And my wife would say, we need we need we just need to pray, and it was just that was just tremendous. When you feel that power of, of knowing I know I've mentioned some people, but knowing that I'm still here, I'm just god god says I'm I'm still here. I just maybe it was a test to see how bad I wanted it. Was I doing it for the right reasons?

Brian: 37:55

Mhmm. Was I doing it just to get a master's degree or or something like that? And I think as strange as it sounds, it was it was God saying, do you do you want this? You're still my child, and I still love you. But if this is not what you want, then here's your here's your out.

Brian: 38:19

I've given it to you. And

T.J.: 38:21

Brian, this experience, I I should have mentioned this earlier or asked you earlier, is the time frame on this. We're we're talking about just a few years ago. Correct? What what year were you diagnosed with this, eye disease?

Brian: 38:37

Well, in the first in the my left eye, it occurred, about 10 years ago in my then when it went into my right eye when I was like I said, when I woke up and I was blind, that was just a few years ago. It was I had about 2, two and a half years left in seminary, and it took me a while because I like I said, I was working a full time job Mhmm. As well as working, trying to go to school and then doing homework and then writing papers and and doing that kind of thing. But, it it was very it was a very short amount of time when all of this happened. Mhmm.

Brian: 39:21

And, of course, you know, the closer you get to graduation is where a lot of meat comes from in in school. So trying to to do that and and get through was was tough.

T.J.: 39:38

Right. So as a student, as things got more intense and the workload became more intense and the responsibilities became more intense is when your health is is, for the time period at least, declining. So when you need your body and your senses the most is when they were kind of fighting against you moving forward.

Brian: 40:06

Yes. There was you know, you you think about things of, in people. And in seminary, there was a young lady, her name was Dusty Luthy, who was a pastor in Denton, Texas now, and she would, she would help me out out with my notes. Because when I tried to write, even now, if I just tried to write something, it would either go up or it goes down, or I can't read it at all because it looks like she can scratch. Mhmm.

Brian: 40:44

But, she would give me her notes and let me run them off, and, and that helped me. And that's why I'm saying that, it wasn't just me going through it. It was it was people that were there that, hey. What do you need from us? And and she was she was awesome in that.

T.J.: 41:06

Man, you had an you had an amazing circle of support.

Brian: 41:11

Yeah. I did. I mean, I did. I mean, it was it was fantastic. And it was also around this time where where, I met well, I've met him before, but I've met Andy McClung, who is who to me is one of the most outstanding people I know when he's trustworthy and honest and and those kind of things.

Brian: 41:38

So that's he's also one of the ones that that that helped me through it. He would I would when I do it when I did a sermon, you know, I I couldn't read my notes, so I was trying to do it memorize it, I guess. Mhmm. And, I would mess up and frustrate myself and because I worked hard on I would work so I worked hard on the sermon, and I would lose my place and then all that, and was worried that people thought that I hadn't prepared well enough. I did not prepare well enough, and I put more pressure on myself.

Brian: 42:22

And he is one of the ones that said, God's given you the words to speak. Don't worry about it. So he said, like, he says

T.J.: 42:33

So when you're frustrated, and and I've had those moments for different reasons of, you know, for, preaching. And it kind of comes unraveled. And having that unraveling, loss of train of thought, loss of notes, what sounded good earlier in the week in preparation wasn't coming out verbally in the way that I wanted to. And to have that in front of a group of people who are facing you is, real humbling experience to say the least

Brian: 43:11

of Yes.

T.J.: 43:12

Of trying to especially when you're trying to share the greatest news that I have heard and read about. And then you would just want to convey that in a way that could be heard and digested and understood and get mad at myself for being the very obstacle that I didn't want to be.

Brian: 43:36

Yeah. It would, you would end up here you would hear people say, hey. Good job. Good sermon. I got something out of it, and you're thinking to yourself that I appreciate the words, but, no, you didn't.

Brian: 43:48

I mean, it was it was awful.

T.J.: 43:50

So I wonder that every time. I wonder that every time. Yeah. I'm I think we can be our own worst critic.

Brian: 44:00

Yeah. And, because it's it's difficult to spend that much time preparing something and then having it all unravel once only a few minutes into it, and you're like, man, you're like, oh my gosh. I've still got so much amount of time I'm supposed to be up here. So

T.J.: 44:24

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian: 44:24

And it's, it was it was hard. I mean, it was hard. You just have to say that I'm doing the best I can, and I'll get better. So

T.J.: 44:36

And I think authenticity goes a long way. You know? You're up there. Maybe maybe a similar career would be like a comedian a comedian on open mic night. And you just get up there and you bomb.

T.J.: 44:52

But there's still something redeeming, I think, of what you've alluded to, Brian, is being authentic in in who you are. I mean, we are imperfect people, trying to convey ideas and thoughts and a theology that is intended to bring life to the listeners. I'd I'd much rather hear authenticity than a well polished sermon. You know, I I want to hear and know the Brian or whoever the speaker, the preacher, the minister is, as opposed to something as just well rounded, well polished, you know, going from point a to point b, flawless, because my life doesn't reflect that if I'm the listener.

Brian: 45:45

Yeah. It's, it it's it's difficult to stand in front of of people because you you sometimes notice body language, and and that's you're thinking, okay. I'm really not doing well because I'm I can see so and so, and now his arms are folded. And I'm not I'm not doing well at all. So Yeah.

Brian: 46:09

And it just it puts you put more pressure on yourself than you need to.

T.J.: 46:13

And Right.

Brian: 46:14

Just because he's not getting some out of it, maybe somebody else is or maybe my my daughter is. That's I'm just trying to reach people. So it, it it's it's it was diff it is difficult. It continues to be difficult too. Because, basically, like I said, I have to memorize it.

Brian: 46:35

I don't I don't have the opportunity to look at my notes and and say, okay, that's where I'm at now. I mean

T.J.: 46:42

What little, tricks or techniques do you use to help you in memorization?

Brian: 46:51

I go over it a lot. I go over it a whole lot, and I, will go over it with my wife because we're empty nesters.

T.J.: 47:00

Mhmm.

Brian: 47:00

And we're I'll go over with my with my wife. And sometimes I'll I'll go over it with, my daughter, if she's here, or my son and say, did you what do you get out of this? What what are you hearing? And, of course, sometimes when you're dealing with the younger younger crowd, it's, attention span is difficult. But, you can you can tell if if they get something out of it.

Brian: 47:31

What did you hear? And I don't care if it's just a line, one line Mhmm. Of, you know, like, we need or if my daughter says, well, we just need to all have patience. K. I'll talk to you for 20 minutes, and, you you can come out with we need to all have patience.

Brian: 47:48

I'll I'll take that. Mhmm. And, maybe my son will come out with Kevin. We'll come out with something different, and, then maybe my wife will hear something different. I'm like, well, if y'all all got that, then I then I succeeded at what my at what God was telling me to do.

Brian: 48:05

So

T.J.: 48:07

That's interesting, Brian. So, really, you're getting immediate feedback as you are memorizing the message that you have crafted or prepared. So you can tinker with it, in the process of memorization. Boy, that you could really boil down and and really have a tight message by doing that. For me, I'd be terrified because you run that, you know, the the vulnerability because your family is the one who love you the most.

T.J.: 48:43

They also know, your weak points as well more better than anybody else.

Brian: 48:49

Right. So I tried to explain it to somebody that, we all know the Lord's prayer, but they're because we've heard it and we've said it so many day times. But if you if all of a sudden you can't remember that one that one word that you've said so many times, the whole thing falls apart. You're like, what? And and all of a sudden, you're back on track, but it's like doing that.

Brian: 49:17

It's like when you when you memorize something and you can't remember words. Same thing with a song. Mhmm. If, there's a song that you're singing a lot and all of a sudden, if that word comes up, you're like, what does that work? What does that work?

Brian: 49:29

What does that work again? And it you feel like it all just goes falls apart. But, that's that's what I do, and, I think I get the message and have done things that have helped me through the people in the support network I have Mhmm. A whole lot more than if I was just trying to do it by myself. Because in the whole thing, you have to have some humility and and say, well, what did you get?

Brian: 50:06

Mhmm. And sometimes if you get, I don't know what you were talking about, then I know that, okay. I've got a lot of work to do.

T.J.: 50:18

You have to go back to the study. Yep.

Brian: 50:21

And it was always remember this. I was Andy was was my pastor, and it was one Sunday when I was preaching. And and this is what I told him when I mean humility. This is something that that I mean. He, you know, he's he said, hey.

Brian: 50:40

Hey. Why don't you wait a minute? And I'm like, okay. Because everybody was leaving. He said, why don't you wait a minute?

Brian: 50:45

I said, sure. And, I said, well, how do you think I did? And he said, well, how do you think you did? I said, I don't think I did very good. And his answer was no.

Brian: 51:00

No. You didn't. But this is what we need this is what we need to work on. And, I was like, that's awesome that somebody just finally told me that, no. You didn't do very well.

Brian: 51:14

And this is what you need to do to make it better Mhmm. Or to to be more comfortable Mhmm. Or to just preach from your heart sometimes instead of trying to read what's on the paper. And, you know, there's there's a lot of times I don't know where I would be if it hadn't been for him. So because he's the one that really he kept me grounded.

T.J.: 51:39

That brute honesty, can be heard better, received better from somebody that you trust and love, even if it's painful in the moment.

Brian: 51:51

Yeah. And that's you know what, it's so important because how can you ever get better if people are because people keep telling you, oh, that was great. I got this out of it, and it was fantastic. You're thinking, well, okay. I guess I'm doing alright.

Brian: 52:07

But when when somebody finally comes and goes, no. That wasn't very good. This is what you need to do. And, you know, and like I said, if you don't wanna know the truth, don't ask Andy. So but, because he is he is one of the most honest people I know.

Brian: 52:26

Mhmm. And I just that's one reason I've learned so much through him is because he's like, this is what you need to do. You don't need to I wouldn't he'll tell me. I don't even know if I would say that, but if you want to, that's fine. I'm not gonna tell you not to.

Brian: 52:43

Don't say it like that. Say it like maybe say it like this. Mhmm. And because sometimes, you know, you get you get emotional. And when you get emotional, it gets you say things you really don't you didn't want to mean or didn't want to say.

Brian: 53:03

Mhmm. I'm a big big Alabama fan football fan, and I like listening to to former coach Saban say, talk and because I can pick up some things that he says in a short snippet that that means something to me. And one time, he said, it's it's good to have emotions, but it's bad to be emotional because being when you're emotional is when you make your mistakes. And I've I've taken that I've taken that to heart, to not let your feelings overwhelm how smart you are, I guess, is what I'll say.

T.J.: 53:45

Yeah. That humility that you were referencing earlier.

Brian: 53:51

Yeah. Like I said, it's and it's and it's good when it comes from people you know and people you trust. That's because that's who your trend true friends are is the ones that that are fully honest with you 100%.

T.J.: 54:06

Yeah.

Brian: 54:07

Because you're and there's nothing like a friend that tells you that you're making a mistake, and you're like, well, if he thinks I'm making a mistake, then, I must be. So you it just it grounds it brings you back to being grounded, I think, is what is what a very good way to say it is. Because sometimes we wanna, I guess, fly our way, but we need somebody that's signed, pulls us back in, and says, hey, stay on course. You're not on course.

T.J.: 54:47

Bron, we often reference our faith, our relationship with god, and we tend to do it in the past tense. What words would you use to articulate your faith in god, so others can hear it in such a way that it that god is real to you and is impacting your decisions and formulating thoughts and and helping you in your actions. So for those who know Jesus as a name and kind of on a peripheral like you had referenced earlier in our conversation, how do you make that alive and real for someone who just has nominal information, maybe even misinformation?

Brian: 55:45

It's, one one place where where the church sometimes makes a mistake is, is only preaching good things. You know? It's always good. So to to to kind of explain that, let let me tell you what. There's a friend of mine who was in who was in the hospital.

Brian: 56:12

He was in a very bad car accident. He leg was broken. Hip was broken. His jaw was broken, a lot of other things, and somehow he'd survived. And, I know he's a friend that doesn't that doesn't go to church.

Brian: 56:31

But when I when I was in the room with him and was talking to him, and his, of course, his parents were there. And I said, do you mind if I if I pray for you? Say a prayer. And I prayed, But during the prayer, I felt something. I don't know how to because when you pray, that's when it's what's in your heart is really coming out.

Brian: 57:07

And so when I prayed for him, I felt something, and he appreciated it. And he calls me now every once in a while and wants me to do it do it again because he says it it helps him. But the answer to be more forward on that is, you're not gonna go through life and and not have pain and have setbacks and not have, disappointments just because you you you believe in God. See, God never says that it's gonna be easy, that this world is gonna be easy. But what I'm what I have to I'm trying to figure out how to say this exactly.

Brian: 58:07

That is true, and you have to believe that that what God is doing in you and for you is for is for the better. And, it it's the place I find that most difficult to talk about is, is when I'm at Mana House or I'm dealing with room in the inn. And Mana House is a is a homeless people that are experiencing homelessness can come and take a shower and then get food may not food, get coffee, get some toiletries, and maybe a a shirt. And, you look at you look at them, and then you look at me. Well, I've I've got a house.

Brian: 59:01

I've got food. I've got all these clothes. I've got a car to get me from where I'm going from here to here, but they don't have anything. Some of them are living on the street and and or and you're like, why does why does this happen? And I say, I I don't I just simply don't know, but it doesn't mean that God doesn't love them.

Brian: 59:30

And, that's where my faith is, has to be has to be strong Sure. And and and just try to help the best way I can. At Manna House, I mean, you I've built relationships with some people. There's a gentleman there who comes every every day. We're we're open Monday Thursday, but he comes and he carries everything he has with him.

Brian: 01:00:13

I mean, every he's he's covered in backpacks and all that. His name is he's always told us his name is Moses, and people will, go to him and and and ask for help. And it's awesome to see that my faith is is continued through things like that. My faith is continued when I see somebody say, hey. Does anybody have a have a coat I can use tonight?

Brian: 01:00:46

It's gonna be cold. And one of the guys takes his coat off and gives it to somebody else. Says, here you go. I'll be alright. I've gotta I've gotta I'll be alright.

Brian: 01:00:59

And see, that's where your faith is. Somebody that has so little, but is willing to give up to me so much. Mhmm. So that's where my faith is is so strongly renewed because I don't I don't do man a house and, rooming the end to make myself feel good. I do those things because that's what God has called me to do, is to be a servant.

Brian: 01:01:29

And those things, when you see people giving up what they have when they don't have anything in the first place, it's like, man, that's that's God right there. That's God giving up something so important as a coat so another person can be warm. It, it makes you wonder that man, would I would I do that? If I was living on the street, would I give up my coat Mhmm. So somebody else could be warm?

Brian: 01:02:03

And it makes you know, it's it's it and, again, it's just humbling, and that that's it's just an amazing thing to watch. So, yeah, that's those doing those two things is is very, very strong in helping me go through my faith. And I look at what I'm going through sometimes. I'm like, man, it's nothing like what they what they're going through.

T.J.: 01:02:29

Mhmm. Yeah.

Brian: 01:02:30

It's nothing what I'm going through is nothing compared to this person. So, yeah, that's where my faith is is continually renewed.

T.J.: 01:02:40

Brian, what other ministries outside of the Manna House and Room in the Inn, that you are involved in now that you're ordained a Cumberland Presbyterian minister?

Brian: 01:02:54

Right now, those are the the 2 biggest, because like I said, I have to have somebody to drive me. Mhmm. And my wife, she works from home. She's a transcriptionist. And so she has to work.

Brian: 01:03:11

So it's it's those 2 are my my biggest that I'm involved in currently. Doesn't mean that won't change, but I those are the 2 that I'm involved with the most currently.

T.J.: 01:03:22

Yeah. Yeah. Let's shift the conversation a little bit. We talked about your faith. Let's talk about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.

T.J.: 01:03:33

So we have listeners to Cumberland Road that are not Cumberland Presbyterian. So, Brian, from your perspective and from the encounters that you have had, how would you describe the Cumberland Presbyterian Church to somebody who's never heard of this little denomination before?

Brian: 01:03:54

Well, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church is, like you said, is just small small denomination that started in in Dixon, Tennessee. And, through that, we've grown is to be a, I would say we're all like a like a family. We, we're all very it's I believe, the word is communal. We're all it's a big community where I could, call another pastor in in a different area, and it would be like we were old friends. Mhmm.

Brian: 01:04:37

I think that's that's the biggest. And our, of course, we do have a doctrine, but it's not one that it's one that's still still with still dealing with with people and being a community. We there are times we disagree, but that doesn't mean that, that person or that person is is worse than or better than me. We have to, we're able to work through our problems, and we're able to strengthen ourselves through situations that face us. Just because we're a church doesn't mean we don't face times and and trials and things that that seem to hurt us.

Brian: 01:05:41

We we have to, just come together and make sure that what people look at when they see us all the time is is that we are God focused, that God is who we're relying on. We're not relying on, the words of this person or that person. It's just remaining God focused, and we're not all built the same, so we're not all gonna think the same. We're not all gonna vote the same way. We're not all gonna believe this is a sin and that's not a sin.

Brian: 01:06:13

We're not all gonna believe that in in every aspect, but in the end, we are God centered and that we we love God and that we want to to bring anybody anybody that believes that into into our church. And that's that's truly what I what I think as far as Cumberland Presbyterians are, is that we're just we're a big we're just a big family and just as you know from sometimes going to Thanksgiving dinners, families get into discussions that seem to be really tough, but in the end you're still all family. So it's, that's to me, that's, you know, small nutshell, that would be what I would say that that we all are. Mhmm. Mhmm.

T.J.: 01:07:18

Brian, for those listening to Cumberland Road, do you have any books or movies or music that you would suggest that has informed your faith and strengthened your faith, deepened it that, someone else may find encouraging and helpful as well? Any books, movies, music?

Brian: 01:07:44

Well, with me, something that, that I do is I I kinda look beyond the just the surface. One of the of course, the Bible is my, to me, is the best book. So, another one that, book that, and and I'll I'll explain this. It there was a book written by Charles Beckwith, who was a general in the military, and, it was called Inside Delta Force. Now that's where I started really reading again was when I read that, but it's again, you have to look beyond the surface.

Brian: 01:08:28

It's the, they build a camaraderie with each other. They build a strong new police of friendship. They build, and they're watching each other's back. Now see, that's what that is, to me, is what Christianity is. Mhmm.

Brian: 01:08:49

Is when you see somebody straying off a little bit, You you grab them by the hand and say, come on back. You're you're going the wrong way. Mhmm. When I movie wise, I think, one of my favorite movies and my wife gets she's like, I can't believe you're watching this again, but it's, it's

T.J.: 01:09:15

called I'm already I'm already laughing. I'm already laughing. Remember

Brian: 01:09:19

the Titans. Love I love that movie, but it's it's because of what he did to bring them all together.

T.J.: 01:09:28

Mhmm. Remember the Titans. I I haven't seen that in a long time. That that's a football movie. Correct?

Brian: 01:09:33

Yes, sir. Yeah. And, it's just he brings he what he goes through to make everyone so tight and to not look at each other as as black and white, but to look to each other as people.

T.J.: 01:09:49

Mhmm.

Brian: 01:09:49

And that's what I'm talking about when you you can watch the movie and not notice that, or you can look at the movie and or watch the movie and and say there's a there's an underlying message here. So that's that's one of my absolute favorite movies that I that I watch. Because of the age I grew up in music wise, like Brandon Heath. I like all of Hillsong's stuff. I'm trying to think of some of course, I like, Lauren Daigle a lot.

Brian: 01:10:36

I I I like to listen to people who who seem to be speaking from the heart. Mhmm. And I think Lauren is awesome at that. My my grandkids, they they listen to, my Emily and Emily's children, Gabby and Amelia. They listen to bless the Lord, oh my soul.

Brian: 01:11:12

And, they just, like, they will play it over and over and over, and I'm like, I could say, please stop playing that. Let's listen to something else. Or I could say, hey. I want them to know that one. Mhmm.

Brian: 01:11:24

So we'll sit and listen to it as long as they want to. And it's I want them to listen to that. I want them to have that that song deeply entrenched in their heads so they know the Lord will bless my soul and has blessed their soul. And that's what's so tremendous about about books and movies and and music and, especially, I would say music because because music has the ability to trigger emotions. It has ability to trigger memories.

Brian: 01:12:08

It has the ability to trigger a feeling you've feeling inside. Even people that experience dimension, all that somehow can hear a song and remember it. Mhmm. So that's that's tremendous to me that something that seems that small can have that kind of an impact on somebody that is experiencing a horrific disease such as dementia can and could even put a small on her face. Right.

Brian: 01:12:49

Right. So, yeah, those those are some of my my favorite, my favorite things. Another another book that I that I really like and it don't let the name of it think that it's it's a different kind of book. It's a it's a fiction book, but it's called, Lords of Discipline. And don't don't watch the movie because the movie is awful.

Brian: 01:13:21

But but the book is is fantastic. It's about, it's more about what a young man goes through when he goes away to a military college. Mhmm. And, it's in how he stays strong through all of it. So it's that's another tremendous book.

Brian: 01:13:46

But, the other night, we watched the sandlot. And to me, again, the sandlot is, is another movie where everybody becomes such such a tight knit group of people and how they and I don't wanna give away too much if nobody's seen it, but they have to, get back this special baseball that was, that, a young man took from his dad that was signed by Babe Ruth. And they're playing with it, and he gets hit over a fence, and then that's where the, everything really starts. But it's how tight knit of a group have something just as, you know, trying to get back a baseball.

T.J.: 01:14:37

Right.

Brian: 01:14:37

It's so important. And sometimes looking at that more into the surface, that's where we need to always be. We need to be getting back to God. Mhmm. And I I just take it as that baseball that no.

Brian: 01:14:53

It wasn't just a baseball. It was something that led to something much bigger. And I'm like, I'm gonna stop there. I'm so I don't wanna ruin it anybody. I don't wanna be a snorer.

Brian: 01:15:04

But it's It is.

T.J.: 01:15:05

It's a good movie. You've got these, kids who they live in the same area, same neighborhood, and they're very different, different backgrounds, but they come together with one collective mission. And it's a shared mission. And and in process, they grow closer together.

Brian: 01:15:26

Very much. Yeah. That's why I like that movie so much.

T.J.: 01:15:32

Brian, you have an extraordinary journey, and I'm privileged to be able to hear it and and for you to share it with me today. And it's also given me the opportunity to get to know you. Again, said this at the beginning. This is the first time that we've sat down and been able to talk together, and I deeply appreciate it. And you're an inspiration to me to not, even when life says, hey, discouragement can overtake.

T.J.: 01:16:07

You have shown me that, no. You don't have to let discouragement overtake all your life. And and you don't have to go very far to find people who will join you in your journey. I mean, I I think that's very compelling for the faith Christian faith community. So, Brian, thank you for doing this.

Brian: 01:16:33

Yes, sir. Thank you for having me.

T.J.: 01:16:36

Thank you for listening to this conversation with Brian Gibson. Check out the other guests to hear how their faith is impacting their daily life. For this episode, I want to close with a passage from the book of Ecclesiastes. For everything, there is a season and a time for every matter under heaven. A time to be born and a time to die. A time to plant and a time to pluck up what is planted. A time to kill and a time to heal a time to break down and a time to build up a time to weep and a time to laugh a time to mourn and a time to dance a time to throw away stones, and a time to gather stones together a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing a time to seek, and a time to lose A time to keep and a time to throw away. A time to tear and a time to sew. A time to keep silent and a time to speak. A time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. Thanks for listening.