Byron Forester - Being A People of Joy, Service, & Hospitality
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. Prison system, a waiter, working at a sawmill, bartending, being a deli owner, working sales, what one gains from these life experiences shapes, molds, and informs a faith that led into ministry. In this conversation, Reverend Byron Forester shares with me a fascinating faith journey, rich with life experiences, that leads to the connections between service and hospitality and ministry that calls upon humanity to become a people of joy. Byron serves 2 congregations in the western half of Tennessee and gave me a couple hours of his day to share his faith journey. Enjoy this conversation with Byron Forrester.
T.J.:Byron, thank you for joining me on the podcast. Before we start with your call to ministry, I know bits and pieces of your life, and you've had some interesting jobs in the past. So I thought maybe we could we could open with some of the interesting jobs that you've had in the past and and what stood out. I've been dying to ask you about the restaurant business, life of a bartender, all these wonderful things that come before ministry.
Byron:Yes. Well, the restaurant and bar business, that actually began when I was in middle school and I worked as a soda fountain, a soda soda jerk for JT Lindsey's Rexall Drugstore in Mackenzie, Tennessee. And, I found that I enjoyed it. I like the hospitality. I like, having people come in, fixing things up.
Byron:I like the interaction with customers. And, so that kind of carried on later in life when I moved to Memphis and I had a part time job out at what was the old Shelby County penal farm. I was a classifications clerk.
T.J.:Now what does
Byron:A classifications clerk, every morning, new inmates come in. So I go down the hall to this room and I take the mug shots and get their their case histories.
T.J.:So you actually did interviews?
Byron:Yeah.
T.J.:How old were you?
Byron:I was 22, so like the first job out of college.
T.J.:Okay.
Byron:And it was a lot of interesting people that came through there. Yeah. Some, some of them were actually very nice people and who did something stupid and then, you know, are were paying for it. And I liked it pretty well, but it was part time so I had to have another job. And a friend of mine whom you may know, Mark Davis, was working at a place called Sawmill Restaurant.
Byron:It was out on Democrat Road out in the airport area. And he said, Well, you know, you could probably get a job out there, too. And then he had a vested interest in me getting another job because we were roommates. He wanted to make sure the rent was gonna be paid. So I I did and I, I found I liked the business a lot, the the interaction with the people, the people that I worked with in there.
Byron:Everybody's kind of been the same frame of mind there, get the job done, and it was fun. We were everybody out there, it was all under, like, the age of 26, you know, So it was a blast. We had a a lot of fun and, working there. And it was a a good restaurant and, the money was good working there. And, one of the things I liked about the business and it was reaffirmed later on when I I went to work in Overton Square, a place called Bombay Bicycle Club.
Byron:Because the people that you work with in that business are some of the most open and caring and concerned people that you'll find. And by open, I mean, complete acceptance of blacks, of gays, anybody who worked here. Okay. The identity is that you work here, so nothing else is kind of important to this. But we enjoyed all the different personalities that come together to make something like that work.
T.J.:A true come as you are.
Byron:Yep. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And so I worked there long enough, moved up Waitr and then, as they were known then, and then attending bar which I really liked, which really kinda took me back to the soda fountain days of making milkshakes and moths.
Byron:And I, again, knew this perception of the bartender listening to troubles or listening to people talk or being the ear. I was that a lot too. People do want to talk to bartenders and tell them their troubles whether whether we wanted to hear them or not. And as I, you know, looked back once I entered the ministry, I saw listen to someone express themselves when they didn't really wanna do listen to someone express themselves when they didn't really wanna do that maybe with anybody else.
T.J.:Right. In a way as a bartender could be a confessor.
Byron:Yes. Exactly. And bartenders do a lot of that. But we eventually and I attended bar at a couple of different places here in Memphis and then eventually opened my own place, which was not a bar. It was a a deli and catering business downtown.
T.J.:What was the name?
Byron:Bluff City Deli. And I used to do a lot of catering for events out here at the center. This is all during the nineties. And, it was I enjoyed the independence of being the owner and, operating and making sure everything got done my way. That was also the big problem because I was maybe not as good an owner as I sometimes should have been and I couldn't fire myself.
Byron:And the downside of that is you're responsible for I'm responsible for everything. Oh, no. I'm responsible for everything. And, so there was a lot of stress, a lot of tension in those times. You know, you need to have a good day every day.
Byron:If you have a bad day, a slow day in the restaurant, well, it takes like 3 good days coming up to make up for it.
T.J.:Right.
Byron:And so it was always up and down. Pretty steady, but, you know, I'd have a a good year and a slow year. A good year had been pumped back up again and then, oh, man. I don't know. And then there's more competition moving in downtown.
Byron:And, and I was at the deli itself was in an office building, Brinkley Plaza office building, and so I had kind of a built in clientele there. And, of course, I developed relationships with many of the people who worked there in that building, very good, and always enjoyed that, being able to have conversations with people and being a place also where people could come in and talk about something other than work. You know, just just, you know, they could unplug for a little bit. And, of course, I didn't have time every, you know, every individual come in there, but I liked the hospitality part of it a lot. In fact, years later, when I began to volunteer at Manna House, which is a house of hospitality here in Memphis.
Byron:It's a we serve coffee and offer showers and change of clothes to people, basically, give people a place to be, people who are on the street a place to be for a couple hours a day and in this big shady backyard with picnic tables and chairs and nobody bothers them. Nobody comes along to tell them they have to move. It's just a very relaxed atmosphere. And so along with the when volunteers new volunteers come in and, we would have a maiden reflection meetings afterward and what brought you here and why are you here? And so I would say, I said, well, I came here because of my faith.
Byron:I've been feel like I'm in a call and I wanna do this kind of ministry, which is all true. But I also began to realize I like the hospitality.
T.J.:Right.
Byron:I just like that still from kind of coming forward from the restaurant being able to host people.
T.J.:Well, let's pause the conversation here for a minute. So looking back on on some of these jobs and and growing up from manning the the the soda fountain to the Shelby County, penal system to the restaurant, to owning and operating, catering, bartending, all these different things. What were some of the strongest skills do you think that you got from being around so many people and a variety of people? What do you think some of the biggest takeaways in terms of in terms of your faith, but just just life skills as well?
Byron:I can make a great Margarita. Being able to see people come in, for instance, in a in a bar setting. You you get to know your customers, you know, their names, and you know what the drink is gonna be. Be. You're already knowing that it's gonna be a scotch and water.
T.J.:With a regular, you know Yeah. The regular custom.
Byron:Sometimes you can tell by people coming in the door. That person's gonna get a whiskey sour.
T.J.:No kidding. You can read at that time, you could read people by what was it? Their clothing?
Byron:Their clothing. I can just the general demeanor or personality. I I can't really get into explaining all of that, but bartenders can kind of figure out pretty quickly.
T.J.:Interesting.
Byron:What's gonna,
T.J.:Without without a word being uttered?
Byron:Yeah. Sort yeah. And,
T.J.:I I can see that carrying over to the food industry as well. People probably look at me, come into a restaurant. He's gonna order a burger and fries. He looks like a burger and fries guy.
Byron:Yeah. I think I think, servers, because they're around people so much and take the orders, they can kind of have have this innate sense of of
T.J.:It's interesting.
Byron:What's gonna be going on back there. So I think that, yeah, developing, learning how to do 1 on 1 relationships. And another part of that also is got you got a guy somebody comes to the bar and you sit and of course you're you're talking and you're that's part of it, attending bars. You engage in conversation. Well, somebody else comes in and they're sitting over here on maybe this side and so you're talking to them and and then maybe a third person is.
Byron:And what you're trying to do is get these 3 people engaged in their own conversation.
T.J.:Without you?
Byron:Without me. They get somehow a topic comes up and then, kinda opens the door and, you know, look over at this guy and then okay. They're, you know, they're okay. They're taking care of themselves here. And I, you know, I've got other people coming in now.
Byron:Yeah. So that, I think looking back then, that did help me maybe, to develop some conversational skills or helping people to talk to people who didn't know each other. Of course, it helps if you've got a drink in your cup. Kind of break the ice a little bit too.
T.J.:Yeah. Your inhibitions are down a little bit. Maybe your stereotypes, your prejudices, maybe a little bit down. It's common person at the counter sharing time, sharing space, sharing a drink, and then you connect them perhaps with conversation.
Byron:Yeah. You know, it's people have very many interests in common. So it's sports. Come on. You know, it's easy to start about sports.
Byron:In fact, about the only topics that were were off and we were instructed by this, at the owners, the topic off limit topic of religion and politics. Don't bring up either one of those.
T.J.:But sports
Byron:Sports.
T.J.:Is both political and treated like a religion.
Byron:Yeah. It
T.J.:is. So what a dance that Yeah. That could be.
Byron:Yeah. But there's there's plenty to do. People don't go, you know, into a place like that to have a bad time. They want to.
T.J.:Right.
Byron:But they're looking to have a good time. So it's pretty easy to kinda Right. Kinda help out a lot.
T.J.:Let me ask you this. Looking back, so if you're engaged in 3 or 4 different conversations, I mean, I only have a one track mind. I'm not sure if I could if my brain could handle having conversations
Byron:with you. Just patter, you know, kind of banal stuff that you're Okay. Warming things. Not deep. Hot enough out there.
Byron:Okay. Don't ever say that. But, you know, those those kinds of things that sort of break the ice a little bit and put people at ease.
T.J.:Now do you think you were born with this skill or is it something that you had to hone over the course of years? Because some people I admire it. I have friends, I know colleagues that have never met a stranger. Yeah. And I've always admired them.
Byron:I know what you mean. And I'm I'm not all that really outgoing or but, in other words, I probably I was in sales. I was not good at sales. Okay? So it's not as if I could just go ahead and and go into a conversation and kind of convince somebody that they should buy something that Okay.
Byron:That I'm selling or I'm just not as gregarious as a lot of people are.
T.J.:But when the playing field is level Yeah. Then it's a little more natural then.
Byron:That's a good way good way of putting it. Yeah.
T.J.:And, you know, in in the food industry, in the bartending, it you're in that service mode as well. So not only are you providing a listening ear, but you're also providing food and drink.
Byron:Providing the hospitality. Right. And this also, I think I know this has helped, when I'm at Manna House and and as I said, the the backyard, there's picnic tables and it's lined with with chairs. Very easy. It's easy to go down and sit down and just engage in conversation with someone.
T.J.:So let's talk about Manna House just for a minute, just for context for those who may be listening. What briefly is Manna House and and how you got involved? How did you discover it?
Byron:I got involved, I just well, it was revealed to me. At the Germantown Church, we had an if I'm remembering this all correctly, we had a mission fair where different people from different organizations around the city, service organizations, were invited to come and talk about their organization, their nonprofit or whatever, and then they were in different rooms, different Sunday school rooms. It was, you know, MIFA was here, Food banks over here. You know, you just pick a room. And, I saw that one of them was a manor house and the the person talking was Pete Gatke.
Byron:And I had become familiar with him, during some peace rallies when he was the speaker, back during the Gulf War. And I thought, hey, this Pete Gekke, he, you know, he seems like a very, a compassionate and and intelligent and sound theological thinking guy. So I'm going to see what what he has to offer here. And he pretty much told us the history and what Manna House was all about, that they wanted, the mission is very simple, just to have a place that, where people can come to for a while and just to get off the street and rest. And as the name says, it's it's it offers manna.
Byron:It's not, going to solve anyone's problems, but it gives respite. It gives them what they need maybe to get through the rest of the day. Mhmm. And, so, yeah, the showers and there's there are systems to it. Somebody comes in, I need a shower.
Byron:Okay. And we have a clothing room for the whole donations. You know, what size shirt, what pants, socks, and everything. And so they would turn in the clothes that they're wearing and they get a brand new set. When they go out of the shower, they got a whole different set, not a brand new, but a different set of clothes.
Byron:And, meanwhile, there's coffee being served in the backyard. We also have a table where people can come by and pick up socks and hygiene items and and just sit around and enjoy, the shade. Even in the hottest of days, there's enough shade back there that it's kind of bearable. And,
T.J.:And you were a member of the Greenville or I'm sorry, the the Germantown Cumberland Presbyterian Church and you had a mission fair. This this is your introduction to the Manna House.
Byron:Yes.
T.J.:And so you're volunteering, checking it out just as a lay person, just as a member of the church?
Byron:No. I was, I was already, in ministry
T.J.:at that
Byron:time too.
T.J.:Alright. I
Byron:pastored at the Hopewell, Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Benton County Okay. Alright. Mississippi.
T.J.:Alright. We'll go back to that, but, let's stay with Bana House for a few minutes. So you're volunteering and and that, what does that mean to you?
Byron:Service. Service.
T.J.:That hospitality.
Byron:Yeah. Come in and see what it, see what it is. And, I take seriously Christ's call to serve and to go into our brothers and sisters. And MIFA is great. Food Bank is great.
Byron:But here was this place offers an opportunity to serve and be face to face with the people
T.J.:Right.
Byron:That I'm serving Right. And not, you know, in a bureaucracy or an organization or something. And it's so simple and so easy and so profound way to touch people is just to sit down and talk and and being able to offer them these amenities and see how they are changed. It's amazing what a shower can do for a person who hasn't had one in a week or 10 days and has been wearing the same clothes in 95 degree heat. It's You're changed.
Byron:You're changed.
T.J.:Yeah.
Byron:And I enjoyed being able to be a part of offering that and seeing what it could do for someone. And as I said, it's Manahas in itself is not going to solve anyone's problems. We just try to make them bearable, a little bit more bearable for a while.
T.J.:You had mentioned, Mark Davis as as a friend. Mark has been a previous guest on the podcast, and he used the expression, cradle Christian, to to describe himself. It was a self description. And, so, Byron, are are you a cradle Christian? And let's let's talk about those early days.
Byron:Mark and I have very similar backgrounds, and it's a similar I mean, it's the same old Cumberland Presbyterian story. You know, our our parents went to Bethel College, met, came and went into the ministry. Our moms became teachers. We grow up going to church camps in CPYC. We become friends.
Byron:We grow up going to church camps in CPYC. We become friends. We become, you know, art covering presbyterians. So yeah, my dad was a covenant Presbyterian minister and so were several other peoples in his family. And mom was a covenant Presbyterian, from over Savannah, Tennessee.
Byron:And like I said, they met at Bethel College. So going to church, when did I not go to church? I you know? Right. It was there.
Byron:It was always expected. It's what we did. It was just part not only just part of the this life of faith that we did. It was our life. As the family of the, the minister's family.
Byron:And, so and it was never occurred to me that I wouldn't go to church or stop going to church. I liked you know, we were the whole Sunday school thing, being brought up, nurtured in the faith, learning the Bible stories about the mighty acts of God and and and, how wonderful God is and this how God has given us this creation, this place, this beautiful, beautiful existence that we have that comes from God. And God is love. God loves everybody. That's great stuff to hear.
Byron:That's great stuff to know. And so being brought up with that and again, like I said, it was a family thing. My dad's family, huge family, several ministers, cousins and around, they were all coming in presbyterians. And so it was not, again, it was this culture thing that, I was born into. The Cumberland Presbyterian culture deeply steeped.
T.J.:I thought you were gonna say cult.
Byron:You know, there may be some people no. And, dad pastored churches in, Marshall, Texas and Albany, Texas. And then, he was called to be the director of the children's home in Denton. So we moved moved there from the time I was in the 1st grade through the 6th grade, my elementary school years were we lived at the home. Wow.
Byron:I mean that was just part of our life. The home the kids at the home, who I I still remember them, they were our brothers and sisters. And we played with them just like brothers. So, you know, brothers would brothers would brothers play, fight, argue. And I still remember I'm not I haven't been able to keep up with any of them in many years.
Byron:I'd love to. And since the general assembly is gonna be at Denton next year, maybe, maybe that something like that would happen. So, anyway, that was more of the covenant Presbyterian, life there. And we were always as a family, you know, going to general assembly. Dad's always going to send it, so I knew those words and I knew the I knew all of the
T.J.:Vernacular.
Byron:The vernacular of the CP church and what people did, what ministers did, and hearing their conversations with dad, because we're always there were always ministers visiting our house. I guess because at the home, people would come and visit, particularly, you know, when the board would meet.
T.J.:Right.
Byron:But wherever we went, it it was always church related and the talk was always about the denomination and and who was going where, who was moving here, and what this board is doing now and how this is how the and so I got I just listened to all of that. And, I think some point during there, it maybe clicked in me that I would be doing that some sometime that this would be this that I would be having these conversations because they were so important to people. They were so,
T.J.:Right. The words carried weight. The decisions impacted lives. It there it's a value. Those conversations are a value.
Byron:Yeah. Yeah. And
T.J.:and you could sense that even as a kid.
Byron:Yeah. Because these were people who ministers groups groups of people would come into a church and listen to my dad talk to them. So, and then here are these other ministers who, you know, have these congregations too. So there's something important going on here.
T.J.:Right.
Byron:And, of course, what was important was they were talking to people about God. And people believed them and people trusted them as, God is imparted to them and to this their lives are, you know, helping them make sense of their lives as Christians about how, what God does for us, from from beginning to end.
T.J.:So the calling to ministry at a young age wasn't repulsive. It didn't you didn't shy away from it.
Byron:No. That came later. Okay. But I did I always knew that and I don't know if that was so much a call, but so much as a this is what they're doing and it's it's important stuff.
T.J.:It's about God. It interested you.
Byron:It did interest me. Yeah. It did interest me. Yeah. And, you know, as I got older, you know, there was times when I would feel that I'm not sure when it first began to think that maybe I'm supposed to be doing that too.
Byron:At the time in middle school, junior high, we we moved from Denton to Mackenzie there and we're at, you know, where Bethel is and where my uncle, Robert Forrester, was also a pastor of the of the church there in Mackenzie. So here again, we're around all these these ministers and these, professors and then there's students who are involved in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in McKenzie who are ministerial students. And they're talking and they're they're involved in our youth program. So there's a big exposure, even even more exposure to the denomination. I thought this you know, I I liked it.
Byron:I liked and and so far I've only said men because there just really weren't that many women in in ministry per se. That's not to say that women people and women in my life did not have a big effect on me in terms of developing my faith, probably more of those than men or at least more deeply than men did. But that's what I was experiencing at the time. Also, dad being a minister, I also knew that you don't get weekends. You know, we were at church.
Byron:We never other families would go places on weekends. We we stayed. We were at home. Our vacation other people would go to all these lots of different exciting places. We'd go to general assembly, which maybe, you know, there was some fun there sometime.
Byron:And and if we did when we did go off on a vacation, it was often in connection, you know, we would we would stay with other CP families sometimes. There was sort of this network of, you know, we'll go visit them or and and they're practically family. But so many times on we were on vacation, a call and then we got a call and someone had died or there's an emergency of some sort back we gotta leave. We've gotta go back home. Well, so I knew the life of the minister and I didn't want it.
Byron:I I wanted weekends and I wanted to be able to take some time and travel and get out and do stuff and not have to worry about, something as really serious as someone's personal spiritual crisis going on. You know, that's a lot to have to carry. Okay. Not all
T.J.:Right. And serious enough to shorten a vacation or even a business trip, you know, for you to go back home. I often wonder if there are young people and children and youth that may actually who are in a minister's family, you know, into adulthood almost resent the church for for things like that because, you know, maybe, you know, you're in the middle of a vacation and then you have to pack up and return because somebody became sick or someone died within the church.
Byron:Yeah. That that was not pleasant but, you know, couldn't really mister Burrows, you know, is really, Oh, no, not mister Burrows. Yeah. So there were, as I saw, a lot of negatives to the ministry.
T.J.:You got you know, shoring it up. I mean, you got to see the realities of of a life in ministry and serving a local church as a minister and the wonderful gifts that come with that and then the sacrifices that come with that as well. Right. Uh-huh. Not only did you see it, but you experienced it.
Byron:Yes.
T.J.:It's not like you were a witness on the outside looking in.
Byron:I mean, it was like I said, we it was it was our our life growing up.
T.J.:So you were saying that, you got a good taste of that. There was a period in your life that you didn't want anything to do with it because you wanted to have some ownership to
Byron:A long period.
T.J.:To to weekends and and vacation. Yeah. Well, something changed along the way.
Byron:Yeah. In my mid to late twenties, I suppose, I finally thought, well, maybe I should at least go to seminary and see what it's like. And I did. And I went, like, 3 semesters. And it just was not working.
Byron:It wasn't clicking after 3 semesters. It just I'm not really into this. And this is kind of a because I don't want it to sound like that I'm speaking ill of anyone or I felt like at the time that, people who were in the seminary then were not totally engaged at all with the outside world.
T.J.:Students, faculty,
Byron:both? Mostly faculty. I mean, it was almost here's what you're studying theology, scriptures, studying, maybe in counseling a little bit, there was, but there was not a lot of what was going on, say, in maybe in the streets, it was just not addressed. The the real needs that people were having, I did not see or feel like being addressed. So for me, there was just sort of a gap there.
Byron:I wasn't sure that I was being trained to meet the needs of people in the very real and visceral sense. I was being trained to to pastor a church.
T.J.:Now we we kinda covered some of the jobs that you've had in the past. So in in the terms of chronology, where were you? Were you in the restaurant business? Yeah. Where
Byron:Well, I had
T.J.:Just for context.
Byron:In another job swing. Okay. I went to work in a sawmill, a real sawmill. Alright. Okay.
Byron:I did that for a year stacking lumber, cutting lumber, stacking it. And, and that's where I begin. It gives you a lot of time for reflection. And because, I mean, well, you got certainly gotta pay attention to what you're doing. I wouldn't run a saw, but stacking the lumbers, it comes down, but it's loud and so you're, you know And I begin to realize, you know, I feel that urge, that urge, the call, God is tapping me on the shoulder, saying, look.
Byron:And that's when I decided, okay. I'm going to seminary. I just announced it to my dad and mom. So I'm gonna, you know, we'll quit my job in a couple of months and go to seminary.
T.J.:So what was the family reaction?
Byron:Well, okay. They're glad was it wasn't this grouch, loud, hallelujah shouting or anything. Well, I would think that's just fine. Yeah. So Very subdued.
T.J.:Yeah. No real encouragement or disappointment.
Byron:Yeah. No. That was, yeah. Not no real not, you know, here's what you gotta do. It was okay.
Byron:Alright. Well, we think you should. We're behind you. And Let's know how it goes.
T.J.:I think I can relate to the sawmill in terms of, you know, I've had some jobs in the past where you're in a in a way, you're you're on your own, loud equipment in the vicinity and and you're left to your own thoughts. Yeah. And I've done a lot of deep thinking. I still seek those out at times. You get a lot of deep thinking and self reflecting, done in those times of just, you know, where am I?
Byron:When I'm mowing the yard. Exactly. I I used to Or vacuuming the house.
T.J.:Yeah. I do a
Byron:lot of vacuuming.
T.J.:Yeah. That's that's exactly what I'm talking about. I used to used to have a landscaping and mowing business and my best thinking, would often come on the mower or or weedy or just something about that drone. You know, you're not able to you're not able to have conversations over a loud mower or loud weedy Yeah. And you're typically on your own.
T.J.:There's no one
Byron:phone ring.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. And you're left to your own thoughts and your own discussion and your prayers or whatever it may be. I can relate to that. Yeah.
T.J.:It's made a lot of good decisions that way, probably some stupid ones along the way too.
Byron:I could make stupid decisions anywhere.
T.J.:You don't need the vacuum or the sawmill or mower.
Byron:And so that was so I I stopped. Quit, maybe I just stopped. I just put it on pause. You know, I was this is not I don't wanna
T.J.:Did did you walk away from seminary, I mean, disgruntled or was it just
Byron:Not disgruntled at all.
T.J.:Just a time out.
Byron:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, wasting this is not I found out later, I really wasn't really wasn't a waste, but it's saved by it at the time that I just wasn't going anywhere with it. And so, back into the restaurant business, I worked in the SSI over at Square
T.J.:Okay.
Byron:At a place that's called Bosco's now. But Yeah. Back in the seventies, it was, Bombay Bocircle Club and sort of an upscale lager bar, if that's upscale. But, and I stayed with it and worked in a few other places here around town, Belmont and Half Shell, Anderton's, which is an old Memphis institution that no longer exists now, Huey's. And then eventually I said, I'm doing this for other people.
Byron:You know? I know what I'm doing. I know how to run these things now. I'm gonna do it myself and I did. And I was able to, get the help that I needed and the financing I needed to get it going.
Byron:And, I owned the deli for 9 years. And,
T.J.:And and you started from scratch. You didn't buy anybody out.
Byron:Right. Starts started from scratch. The hard way. Yeah. And, actually, it was part of a a guy was trying to get a franchise of these going.
Byron:So he, was introduced to him. And, so it was gonna be a but the franchise part didn't work out. He didn't really know what he was doing. And here I've got a deli here and then it's not really working away. So we we got out.
Byron:We just disassociated and took it on as my own. And
T.J.:What was your favorite part about operating a deli?
Byron:Well, I think that part is that interaction again and being able I always before, you know, as manager, you know, there are people who that I supervised, and I like that. It's a little bit different thing I found when you're actually paying these people yourself. So you you tend to regard them a little bit differently, and you really want the best out of them. And you, you try to provide an atmosphere where they are happy with their jobs and so that they wanna do a good job. I, a deli my size, and probably even now, you know, would be a starting position would be minimum wage.
Byron:I refuse to do that. I refuse to pay. I'm just not gonna do that. You people are worth more, than that. And and plus it's easier to keep, you know, you can you can be a little bit more selective in your hiring too.
Byron:And I was able to give, periodic raises at times. I I did as much as I could financially for the staff. If if we had an incredibly busy day, I would give everybody cash bonuses and, give them as flex but at the same time, you know, you gotta be at work on time every day. You know, you just don't. If you, you know, miss a certain number of days, I'm sorry.
Byron:You know, because this this is a a working relationship. Right. Right. And I enjoyed being able to, you know, get involved with if you have a staff of 6 or 7 people, you're gonna get involved in their lives, in their family lives. You just are, because their problems become your problems.
Byron:You know, the sick kids or or a death in the family, those kinds of things. You're, you know, you're gonna have to maybe, get by a day or 2 short handed. That means you can depend on your other people to step up and fill in for Polly who's having a rough time, that kind of thing. And I really liked staff. And we we had a good product.
Byron:We had good food. We had, I had good vendors that I purchased from and had sandwich bread, pogies that can only come from one place, no other deli. At least in the downtown area, I had the same kind of bread or or the sandwich that I did at all. And so that was kind of neat being a niche spot down there. But it's highly competitive business and because you're also dealing with fresh product, you're you're constantly you know, it's not like books that are gonna sit on the shelf until they're sold.
Byron:If you don't sell that lettuce Gotta throw it away. You gotta you gotta throw it out. And so being able to to keep that going and and keep going and that we had a lot of catering, sandwich trays, fruit and vegetable trays for for meetings. We used to cater board meetings out here. So making sure you gotta you gotta have enough of those coming in without having too many on one particular day that you can't handle it.
Byron:So it's a balance. Yeah. You know, you have one you know, a couple of days a week where you're, oh, we're not doing much business here and then suddenly, you know, you got more than you you're having to say no to people, which really, really hurts to do. So that up and down, that stress, that getting there, we got this has to happen today. These deliveries, that delivery gonna get here in time today for this big order began to just wear on me.
Byron:And, after a while, I wrote, I don't have to do this. I can do something else. You know, I'm like 40. And so I sold it and decided to just kind of sit back and look for look for something to do.
T.J.:What is that feeling like? So you're a 40 year old man, business owner Yeah. And you decided there's more to life than this. I'm selling it with no plan b.
Byron:Well, plan b was to find something else, and I didn't exactly know
T.J.:Yeah. But not what
Byron:it would be. I had there were there were some things I was interested in, some positions I knew that were out there that I would apply for. But I was so knee in need of some time to let get to exhale and just relax that I wasn't gonna do any I'm probably I'm not gonna do anything for a couple of months and I didn't. You know, I just let it all.
T.J.:What did that feel like? To be able
Byron:Rejuvenating, recharging, bringing myself around back around.
T.J.:You recommend it?
Byron:Yes. Yeah. I don't not that many people can, you know Can do it. Can do 3 months anyway or whatever it was. It turned out to be longer than that because of the the job.
Byron:That was also the economy began to tank at that time too. So jobs were suddenly suddenly nonprofits weren't hiring. Like, I I wanted to go work for a nonprofit. I thought that would be good. So still I've got this thing of service.
Byron:Right. Being called by God to serve. That's that's and I kinda spent my whole life not doing straight jobs. The 9 to 5, did not that never appealed to me. And in fact, you know, I stayed away from from all of that.
T.J.:Well, the ministry will suit you well then.
Byron:Yeah. Yeah. But as it turned out after a while, you know, after being turned down by different nonprofits who I found out were really just hiring from each other or promoting from within, I'm gonna have to get a real job. And I had a neighbor who worked for the yellow pages and she said, yeah, we're always hiring out there. Come out there.
Byron:You can sell yellow page
T.J.:ads. Alright. You know? So
Byron:I did and, you know, got hired and started the intense training program and were selling these ads. And I went through it and it turned out I was really not good at selling ads over the telephone. And I thought, man, if I don't I don't know what they're gonna fire me, you know, if I don't start making something happen here. So I just went in to one of the supervisors and I said, are there other opportunities within the Berry company? And that's what it's called the Berry company that, that I could maybe move over to because before you fire me, he laughed.
Byron:And then he thought, well, actually there are. There's 2 part time jobs here that we're gonna put together into a single job. So within just a few days, I had a different job and that basically gave me free range over the office. I didn't really have a supervisor. I was kind of making up the job as I went along.
Byron:And so, I was creative as creative as possible in finding things to do, like making sure all the office equipment works, making sure the papers and the machines. And I was in charge of buying and purchasing. That was part of it too, to make sure I bought all the office supplies, you know, up to including the copy machines. So and people didn't as long as things were getting done, nobody cared what I did or where I was or what I was doing. But I did a lot of things in there.
Byron:We had business expos and I would go set up the exposition things, you know, kinda like what y'all do at GA when you have the okay. And just sort of the guy, the guy who got things done. Okay. This is where it sort of sounds dramatic and I don't want it to be. Alright.
T.J.:I don't have any music to play in a background. So
Byron:That's where I was working on a 911 and drove, was driving to work when that happened. And the effect on me was like, you know, everybody else, the devastation. And I felt so helpless and wanting to figure out how to serve, you know, what was there to do. And that bothered me a lot. I can't I can't really I'm out here.
Byron:This job, it's okay, but what good am I really doing? So making, you know, their jobs easier by being the the support person all the time. And that's when I began to, God saying, okay. Now, now that I have your attention and I understand the danger of saying that it took 911 to to get me to go into the ministry. That's not it.
Byron:It was a realization that God was calling me to be more responsible with my life. Here you are, you're wanting to help people, but you're not equipped to do it. So what are you gonna do? And that's, what led me to go see, Mary Anderson at MTS and sign up to come back to school?
T.J.:That's a deep question. You wanna do something, but realizing that you are not equipped to be able to do it. You know, it takes a mature person to be able to kinda do that self analysis, that self reflection of I want to be here but I'm not able to be here without help, without assistance, without study.
Byron:For me, faith involves a great deal of self analysis. And that's why I think, you know, that it's a good thing to have doubts because your doubts cause you to ask the questions and the questions are gonna lead you to some answers. And if you stay with it long enough and let God talk to you long enough, then those questions will get answered. Those doubts will be dispelled.
T.J.:It's interesting to think that self awareness and doubt really do go hand in hand.
Byron:For me, they do. Yeah. I think so. And and it becomes not just having faith. This is what I come through my faith journey.
Byron:It's not just having faith, yes, but it's also more, I think, for me, different from other people, it's doing faith, acting out the faith that I say I believe in. I can believe it, but if I'm not doing anything about it, I'm not sure that I've got the right kind of faith or I'm looking at faith in the right way.
T.J.:Yeah. There there's a difference between living out my faith and and then agreeing with a concept of faith.
Byron:Yes.
T.J.:There's a there's a big difference.
Byron:It's not faith unless you act on it. It doesn't become faith until you begin to act on it.
T.J.:There's that Presbyterian dance of both the the head and the heart and the head and the feet.
Byron:Well, as you said, I'm I'm steeped in the CP church. I've been involved, intimately involved in all three of our institutions, the the college, the the the children's home, and the seminary. So yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty Presbyterian.
T.J.:So you started the educational path shortly after 9:11?
Byron:Yeah. Like the next semester. That was in September. I started school in January.
T.J.:So you've been ordained?
Byron:Since 20 7.
T.J.:What advice, what counsel would you give to somebody exploring the call to ministry?
Byron:Listen deeply, and it's other than that, it's because the landscape has totally changed in 15 years for the church and for what it meant, how to be a pastor and where to be. Not ministry. There's always gonna be ministry to be done, but pastoring is a different thing now. It's changing. I think the demands on a pastor are are not what they used to be.
Byron:I think there are, you know, there's always been demands, but now there may be there are different ways.
T.J.:Yeah. The expectations are changing from just a few years ago and and, there's a lot of adaptation, I think, for for those that have that are in ministry for sure.
Byron:And I think as I said, I think there's always ministry there, but there are so many other ways to do ministry other than pastoring a church. I mean, for my all of my growing up, if you were gonna be a minister that meant pastoring a church or some job with the, denomination. It was but, no, those those are just there's so much to do out there. Of course, chaplaincy. But and then working with people on the street at Manna House or working with an organization that helps to, you know, solve problems of hunger.
Byron:And not just being a part of that organization, but being with the people who are hungry. Not just behind the desk, but actually and I don't mean handing out food, but somehow become intensely involved in the lives of the people that you're serving so that you understand that the pain and the hunger and the need.
T.J.:And that and that's a relationship, to be in relationship with another human being.
Byron:In an empathetic relationship with a human being. You wanna be in the relationship and then then as empathetic as you can with that.
T.J.:And that takes time because, there has to be trust between you and me in terms of of having a relationship. I don't have relationships with strangers. I mean beyond the superficial or beyond, but I mean a true relationship. I have to spend time with you to understand your context. Mhmm.
T.J.:And you you have to do the same with me. Yeah. And that that takes that takes time and then trust between the 2. Byron, where do you see God in this world today presently? We we've spent some time talking about past and God working in your life in the past, but what about right now?
T.J.:We've we've kind of alluded to people's needs and the struggles that they have in life. And they need to know that God is here and available and loves and cares for them. So where do we point people?
Byron:We point people to the joy. It is and I'm almost overcome daily with what's with what goes on in our world, with flooding in Kentucky and fires just burning fires burning out of control. The ugliness in our society right now, the just meanness, the the rise of Christian white nationalism. There's so much out there to be utterly frightened of, and for good reason, I mean, and I am. But you can't you don't give in to fear.
Byron:You know, even when it seems like fear, there is no other option. There is that option. And so look for the joy. Look for where God is in where god is visible, where god is acting in other people, and in creation itself. I mean, looking just beyond you outside this window at those beautiful trees, like last week, those the tree the leaves would have been wilting down.
Byron:What a great big difference, you know, an inch of rain makes to that. That's it's just a beautiful sight out there now. The trees look like they're interested in living again and not just drooping. And, yes, that is part of our the connectedness of our creation is that, you know, when the looking at that gives me joy to see these trees being revived. And our connection with creation should give us joy.
Byron:I'm I'm outside a lot. I do a lot of, hiking and, whenever I can. And I need to get off of concrete and pavement. I need to be on the earth. I need to spend time walking on the earth, that connection.
Byron:And it is it's it's is a real connection. And when I'm connected with the earth, I know I'm create connected with the Holy Spirit and I can feel that. And then our connections just continue to grow through the Holy Spirit, through our spiritual connections with our with our families, our friends, these relationships that we have. And we are all tied together to God through all of this. The passage that was in Hosea 11 chapter 11 verse 11 at the end of that when God roars and all God's children come home.
Byron:The context, of course, was the Israelites who have turned away from God and and and and and Hosea is giving the words of God as as the the father the father, the creator, the sovereign whose heart is broken because his children are running away. In verse 11, he roars and all of creation responds, the birds, Everything trembles with joy because God is speaking. That is to me, that was very profound that we are all connected, and god's care and concern is for everything. So but why stop at the earth, the universe? And, it goes it can get really God is so big.
Byron:God is so big. And yet God is right here with us in this room to caring and hearing and concern and and giving me a nudging to keep to be here. Keep talking. You know? Say something that makes sense.
Byron:And, to me, this is just so astounding, and I try to, you know, live in a way that I can enjoy the hope and the joy of the creator no matter how I won't use that word, how awful things are and what are the despicable things that we humans do to the creation and to each other.
T.J.:I don't have to look very hard to find pain and suffering and hatred. No. But sometimes, you know, seeking out joy and finding out joy to run with your theme, to run with your train of thought, We can be the as Christians, we can we can be the people of joy in the midst of sorrow and to live out that joy.
Byron:I think that's part of our calling.
T.J.:Yeah. And well, speaking of our calling, let's talk about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, the Church Universal. I ask a lot of guests, What do you think we're we as a church are getting right, and what do you think we're missing?
Byron:We're getting it right when we provide a community that is open to everyone, that is not so much concerned with self sustainability in terms of financial or establishment, but a community that sustains itself through the love and the care of its members and helping members find themselves in Christ. And their role in God's plan, if if if God has a plan, you know, that's, for us. I think God has a purpose for us. And as far as plan, I think that might be 2 different things. But the purpose we all have are the the gifts, the things that we're good at, the things that, usually, the things that we're good at are the things that also give us pleasure or certain satisfaction.
Byron:And if and so we, you know, we should look at those things and and say, man, has God given me helps helped me develop this into something.
T.J.:Yeah. I've never thought about that before, the differences between the purpose and a plan. Because if if you think about the catechism, the first question into catechism, what is the the purpose of humanity or human being? You know, it's to love and glorify God. And that's that's not a plan per se as in what is the immediate goals and future of of Byron or TJ, but it's more of a purpose, a purpose of of life.
T.J.:I've got to think on that some more. There is some differences. I like that thought.
Byron:Well, I haven't thought
T.J.:deeply about it before.
Byron:Yeah. Yeah. Acting faith, finding our purpose, these are ways it's that's discovering for ourselves the kind of life or the way of life that Christ calls us to live. And I think that, like, having a a purpose, I want to be as much like Christ or live my life in Christlike way and realizing that I'm never exactly ever going to be perfect at doing that. Okay?
Byron:You get points for making the effort. I don't know. But living in that manner and making that way of life the most important thing more important in my life than say, I've got to go to work Monday through through Friday at this place to make enough money to come home and feed my family and and do and and and pay pay the bills and the mortgage and have a little bit left over to save and maybe take a few trips every now and then. Okay. That might have to be part of your plan to be the Christian or your purpose here because that's how you're going to do what you do.
T.J.:Right. Right.
Byron:Your your your, you know, the the avocation of your vocation is following Christ. How you do that may involve many different things.
T.J.:Yeah. I have plans for this evening, but that may not be the purpose of my life and the calling of my life. Not that it contradicts.
Byron:No. But the calling of your life is going to affect in a great way what you do tonight or how you interact with with the people and and and what you do. That's true. That's true. I suppose.
Byron:I don't know what you're up to. But but it does. God is gonna have and and the way you live your life, the the the Christ in your life is going to have an effect on what you do tonight and how you react to people.
T.J.:I took you a little off sidetrack, because I was digging into the purpose and the plan. But you were speaking generally about, the the focus on people and maybe less of the institutional side of the church. And you were about to get deep in that and I put a sidetrack on you. I also put words in your mouth because you never used institution but the programming, the budget of the church is different than the actual people and then I, interrupted you. So did you wanna go back to that?
Byron:The institution is a good word, you know. Yeah. Gets I think the institutional of the church gets in the way of the church being the church quite often. And I think that has really hurt the church, particularly among people, young younger people today who are coming in or or even for the last maybe 20 something years as, people aren't seeing the church more about, you know, the self and this is not new stuff, but about self professorialization than it is about living out the gospel and and turning away from the church because the church is not doing what you taught us you would do in Sunday school, what you taught us about Jesus in Sunday school, we don't see happening. And and, you know, the answers we're getting is, well, we just don't do it that way or that's not gonna work for us, you know.
T.J.:Yeah. Or or
Byron:But what's good is a Bible study if you don't do anything with what you learn at the Bible study.
T.J.:Yeah. I've always envisioned to be able to
Byron:I'm not against Bible studies, but just to have it and then go home.
T.J.:Right. To take the theme of a particular bible study and and walk through it as a group and then take what you've learned out into the local community or maybe a far off community and be able to practice that aspect of your faith. There is clearly a disconnect Yeah. From from that.
Byron:And if we're gonna tell our children Sunday school that God is love, God loves everyone, and everyone is the same, red and yellow, black and white. And kids believe that stuff. They take it to heart. And then as they get older and see realize that that's wait a minute. It's not really like that.
Byron:Yes, it is.
T.J.:Yeah. Well and I think as as Cumberland presbyterians, we could actually lean into who we say we are in terms of we are both head and heart. We are both the head and and and the feet and the hands. And so to linger only in Bible study or maybe only to linger in service.
Byron:Yeah. I mean, you you can't just do one or the other.
T.J.:Right. It's it's the both and it's not either or.
Byron:And, Bible study of even if you're, you know, say you're not physically able to get out and do something, that doesn't mean you haven't wasted your time going to Bible study at all. I mean, we all need to develop our spiritual lives.
T.J.:All we need is an excuse not to attain.
Byron:But, yeah, we take what we learn and and not just out in the physical world, but it's spiritually as well. Maybe, you know, this this is gonna learning, hearing these verses and hearing them explained and discussed is gonna help somebody with a deep emotional problem that they've been experiencing and haven't known what to do or how to deal with it. Now may have an idea of, of how to get through a situation. Mhmm. And so yeah.
Byron:I mean, the church is important in that greatly important. It's the best place to be for helping people get through situations when we do it correctly.
T.J.:And together.
Byron:And together without judgmentalism or saying, you know, well, if you hadn't done this, this wouldn't have happened to you. It's about how can I help you now?
T.J.:Right. I think that togetherness is a piece because it's easy to think in isolation. You were referring back to the, sawmill, me in landscaping business that, I think it is good to live and think and reflect and converse with God. But you cannot isolate yourself from the community of faith because some of those thoughts and prayers and ideas need to be tested, measured and incorporate the community. And go, I don't know, TJ.
T.J.:That's a little off. Uh-huh. Just like you, TJ. Yeah. I think that's important as well because it you know, to isolate ourselves, can create a great danger.
T.J.:I think we can do that as small groups. I think that we can do that individually as well. And it's a danger, you know, I have the answers. I have the complete understanding. I've studied it on my own, but I think we measure that along with our colleagues, our peers and and other disciples in terms of our study, our thoughts, our ideas, because it could turn into something better.
T.J.:So it may have originated with you in a sawmill or a mower or in your garage or driving or Never was about you.
Byron:It never was.
T.J.:Yeah. Byron, what do you, what are you reading?
Byron:I read, right now, mysteries. That's my my guilty pleasure reading our our mysteries or sometimes historical nonfiction and, or historical fiction too. But I'll read a couple of different kinds of books. I'll kind of move around biographies or autobiographies. But there are some other books, literature that are not just mysteries, but so far are, I think, help to reveal God and people stories.
Byron:I think stories are just so important. And sometimes, you know, I'll read different stories written by by different people. And, because they are the the accounts of people living a life that God has provided for them and how they react to that and how they are in relationship with others and what happens in their lives that helps them develop into a more a truer person or a truer form of the person that God calls us to be and how that happens. I think, you know, you mentioned, I think, earlies or in the suggestions about, some maybe movies or books or something like that. A book I could that I read not too long ago.
Byron:Wendell Berry, who is a pastor and a theologian and a farmer and a and a poet is a great, great author, Has a book about a called Jaber Crow. Jaber Crow is a guy who was a barber in a small town, small village. And this is kind of like everybody in the town comes to see him and they share with him and talk to him and share their stories kind of like a a bartender. You know, people sit in their his barber chair or could just come sit in the chair in the barbershop and sit and listen to other people's stories. And it it's Wendell Berry would disagree with this and he says so with the foreword of the book, but it it does touch in some deep theological tones in there and it affirms a lot of the theology that, I perceive too about, how we as humans interact with the creation and how badly we do that and how we have, corrupted the land for our purposes when the land was already giving us everything we needed.
Byron:And, but we're not satisfied with what we need. We want what we want. We want to monetize everything. And so we developed industrialized farming and, we were ruining the earth with it.
T.J.:There's definitely a layer of stewardship, I would think, a theological concept there. Byron, what are your hopes for the church as we look into this century and we're still early in this decade? Where would you like the church to be?
Byron:Well, I have no doubt that the church is going to exist. I have no idea what the church is gonna look like. I don't know that, the I I think the, you know, the brick and mortar church, it's it's it's here, gonna be here a long time, I think, but it might not eventually. I think the church is gonna is going to be always be communities, a community of people who worship god together, who trust each other, who care about each other, and more importantly, are open to everyone and totally accepting of everyone as a sinner just as depraved as I am. Just a different kind of depravity, baby.
T.J.:So that change, does that scare or excite you as to church changes in the future? It's not going to look the way that it does. Well, you
Byron:know, it's it's scary because I've grown up with the institutional church. I mean, I've stayed here and talked about an hour about how much this denomination has meant to my life. Right. And, so it's, the churches are gonna everybody knows. This is no secret.
Byron:Churches decline greatly, precipitously every year. So, I mean, at some point, you know, it but I think that point is long away from here. But ministry continues. How are we gonna do, minister? How is the church gonna be a community?
Byron:I don't know yet. I see places like Room of the Inn, who provides a ministry, and yet that all of the volunteers that are working there are have formed their own community. That might be a church. I think it may begin to look like that, that an organization, a group of people, a community who work around a a particular ministry.
T.J.:Yeah. What is it about this group, small or great, that draws them together? I think those are good measuring sticks.
Byron:What draws them together is this yearning to meet and find and discover the meaning of our lives and this this what we call God, something that is greater than us, more than what we are because, you know, we we seek that. We are born seeking that. And and and if we seek it, you know, it must be there. To put it very trite, there's a song by Emmylou Harris that contains the the line, if there's no heaven, then what is this yearning for? So we we're yearning together.
Byron:We want to do this. And we've learned through Jesus Christ that God is calling us together in community and that we're all a bunch of sinners, but God loves us. And that, you know, we are. I mean, we just are. You know?
Byron:That's gonna get addressed somehow. But what our concern is not to be with the kindness, but helping people move through those difficult times, those those sins whether whether whether what we're going through is self caused or caused by other people. But we have to help people move through the difficult times, and part of that is is helping people understand that we are able to do this because of the grace of God and we learned that through Jesus Christ.
T.J.:Yeah. There's a fullness of life being offered. You know, Jesus says, I come to bring life and bring it abundantly and we believe that's grace.
Byron:Yes.
T.J.:Yeah. Byron and I enjoy our time together. I appreciate getting to know you better and you being vulnerable and sharing stories. And, it was exciting to hear about, you know, the joy and the service, the hospitality, those threads that have run through your life.
Byron:Well, well, thank you. I I appreciate the opportunity. I have no idea how, this was gonna go and, likely have said some things that people aren't gonna agree with or say, what what to him there? But that's too bad. That's who I am.
T.J.:Byron, thank you.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road. As you enjoy this podcast, subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Google, or your favorite podcast site. In closing, here are some words from the prophet Hosea. Yet it was I who taught Ephraim to walk. I took them up in my arms, but they did not know that I healed them. I led them with cords of human kindness, with bands of love. I was to them like those who lift infants to their cheeks. I bent down to them and fed them. My compassion grows warm and tender. I will not execute my fierce anger. I will not again destroy Ephraim, for I am god and no mortal, the holy one in your midst, and I will not come in wrath. And they shall go after the lord, who roars like a lion. And when god roars, the children shall come trembling from the west. They shall come trembling like birds from Egypt and like doves from the land of Assyria. And I will return them to their homes, says the lord.
