Carissa Welch - Religion As Mental Bondage & Finding Comfort Within Uncertainty
You're listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. The following is a faith conversation with Carissa Welch, a seminary student and a member of Covenant Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Oklahoma. Carissa was raised in a different environment than myself, and I was interested in hearing her journey. She comes from a fundamentalist Christian upbringing where clothing, food, and intake of anything considered worldly was measured with suspicion and and perhaps even evil. Carissa's experience can serve as a cautionary tale, a warning that the Christian faith can be manipulated into a form of mental bondage. A conversation with Carissa has me reflecting on what faith in Jesus Christ can be. For me, faith in Christ is an invite to the experience of God into new possibilities. To live, to love, and to be. I hope to have more faith conversations like this in the future. Here is the faith journey of Carissa Welch.
T.J.:So do you come from a big family or a small family? How many siblings do you have?
Carissa:I have got 7 brothers. I'm, I'm 34. My big brother is gonna be 36 next month, and I have brothers that just stair step all the way down to 14 years old.
T.J.:Yeah. What is a household like with that many children? Is there places to hide when you were growing up? Did you have space of your own?
Carissa:Well, I mean, I was the only girl, so I got my own room. But it was definitely, like, a race to the bathrooms in the morning to see who could get in the shower when there was still hot water. There's always, like, you know, random wrestling matches worked through a lot of interpersonal problems. It was fun. It was fun.
Carissa:We worked through a lot of interpersonal problems.
T.J.:This sounds like a silly question, but how did you get from a to b? How did you get to the store or to church? Does everybody fit in one vehicle, or do you have to take 2?
Carissa:I learned how to drive in a 15 passenger van. Not a good driver. It was not a good experience. But now I get in a car, and I'm like, oh, this is easy to drive. I can get this anywhere. I can fit in any spot with this thing.
T.J.:Okay. So you did the big van. You did the 15 passenger van.
Carissa:Yes. Yes. We did. And then on long trips, because there were so many benches, she would make sure there was a space in between every two people so that there were no fights in the van on the way to our destination.
T.J.:Well, did you label your family van? Did you, like, put on the side of it your family name? Or
Carissa:We didn't.
T.J.:Okay.
Carissa:It it, we should've done that. That would've been a good idea.
T.J.:I know. I'm asking jokingly. Most people don't even know. Can you be kinda neat?
Carissa:Oh, man.
T.J.:You could've made up some band name or sports team name.
Carissa:We could have. We, we were a band. We all played instruments, so we we definitely should've done that. We missed an opportunity there.
T.J.:So what was your upbringing like? Was your household did you have faith, you know, Christian faith? Or
Carissa:Yeah. My dad was actually he was a pastor. Well, when I was a little baby, he was a missionary. My parents met when my dad was teaching in a bible school, and then they got married. We moved overseas, And we lived in Singapore for 5 years and then came back, and he immediately started pastoring. And so you hear the classic stories of, like, the pastor's kids, you know, being crazy and but that really wasn't us because we were all terrified. We were all scared to death of going to hell, and so we we we were pretty lined out. We were we were some pretty straight laced kids for the most part. But we definitely there there was this really odd mix of faith in that we were so scared of hell, but we saw really real experiences around us the whole time. Like, we knew that we knew that that my dad really loved God. We knew that he loved the bible. It was just it was a really, honestly confusing experience to watch kind of those two things at the same time. Like, this man who talked about, like, a really, you know, really loving relationship with God, and then also we're just you know, we're we're terrified all the time of of God. It was it formed a lot about us in our early years, I think.
T.J.:What were those tensions like? Because I would imagine that you have the tensions of loving God, but also being fearful. But also, kind of the viewpoint looking at the world, the world is a wonderful place, but also something that has evil or things to be feared. Mhmm. Did you grow up in that kind of environment that I mean, it's kind of a dichotomy, love but yet hate, fear yet, you know, compassion.
T.J.:That Yeah. That can mess with a kid's head. It can mess with an adult's head. Did you have an experience like that?
Carissa:Yeah. I well, so what what you're saying about, like, the world just looking evil, we were it was like every decision in our lives was made kind of trying to be protective. So, like, we were homeschooled because, because of influences that could be in public schools. I mean, teaching that could be in public schools. The things that we would watch at home, like, I mean, cuss words, we're gonna cuss words are like, like, definitely don't murder anybody.
Carissa:Also, definitely do not cuss. So You know, every
T.J.:Let me let me interrupt you for a minute. So how were those television shows, movies, How were they curated? Like, how did how did they say these are the movies that are approved. These are the ones that are not approved.
Carissa:We had we had resources. We had there are websites that will do reviews and kind of tell you everything that's in a movie. We have this thing called a cuss box that you would plug into your TV. And
T.J.:Yes. See, I didn't wanna lead into you know, my question was loaded. I've heard of those. I've seen those.
Carissa:Yeah. We had those.
T.J.:Okay.
Carissa:We had that. It would, it would mute. It would mute the show every time there was a cuss word. And, And, I mean, you know, there were some movies that, you know, once you get to a certain rating, we're just not even gonna try to watch that. But everything was done in mind with, like, the the world is a scary bad place, and you don't you don't wanna interact with it very much.
Carissa:And so and so, also, when the world is a scary bad place, it's a lot easier to talk people into into theologies that are supposed to be protective, but are really just, really restrictive and sometimes outright abusive. So, you know, we were homeschooled, and then also I was I was the only girl. So I saw a big difference between how how I was allowed to kind of move around in the world and how my brothers were allowed to move around in the world.
T.J.:What were the differences?
Carissa:Well, here's an example. I remember one time I was I was talking with my dad about something, and I was really upset and, like, trying to make my point. I remember him going, Carissa, you are always gonna have to submit to somebody because one day you're gonna be married, and you're just gonna have to submit to him. So So you might as well just learn to submit now. And I just remember thinking, what about this guy?
Carissa:What about what about my brother? Like, he's that that can't be that can't be a good reason for telling somebody to just listen without thinking through something. Like, it can't just be that for the rest of your life, you're gonna have to listen to somebody else. And and I didn't even realize then where that teaching had come from. There I'm sure a lot of people have watched shiny happy people.
Carissa:We were not IDLP, but my dad was really influenced by the IBLP teachings. There's this whole teaching about the umbrella of authority, and it's Jesus at the top, and then it's the dad, the husband, and then the wife's under him, and then the kids are under that. And it's it's kind of, again, it's supposed to be protective because everything's scary. Everything's dangerous. And so you're supposed to have, like, all these layers of protection, but it just Well it wire.
T.J.:For for our listeners, like, before we had this conversation, one of the homework assignments I had was to, watch a documentary on, I think it's on Amazon Prime, called Shiny Happy People. Mhmm. And it's based upon a family. You have to help me. The
Carissa:The Duggars.
T.J.:The Duggars families, there is
Carissa:Yeah.
T.J.:Had, like, a reality TV show on TLC Discovery Channel. All this missed me. It just wasn't a television show I was interested in. In. But anyway, for perspective, they are they were and are part of a Christian organization called Institute in Basic Life Principles.
Carissa:Mhmm.
T.J.:And it's a Christian organization. It's been around for quite some time. I think, 9 1960, 61, somewhere pretty early. And, so anyway, one of the principles talks about the umbrellas. There there is different things that fall under an umbrella.
T.J.:And I know after watching the documentary series, because, like, umbrella would be something that I would talk about, like, oh, we fall under this big tent or this big umbrella. Yeah. I don't use that anymore. Yeah. But at any rate, so there, this is a Christian organization that your family was familiar with or aware of or or
Carissa:Yeah. My dad would host the conferences every once in a while at his church. And I think he probably he and Bill Gothard are both from Illinois and that so he probably was exposed to his his stuff pretty early on. Mhmm. Just the circles that he was in. But but yeah. So I I grew up influenced by the teachings of that without even knowing that's where it came from.
T.J.:How detailed, is the, institute in basic life principles in the in the day to day life of a member? Like, how how deep does it go? I mean, beyond just saying I would imagine this is, you know, Carissa, be a good person. Be polite to the people that you encounter. I mean, is it that superficial or is it more like down to, like, the socks that you wear, like, the color of it?
T.J.:How detailed does that get?
Carissa:I remember we had, like, big folders of all of these teachings from from the institute, and it was, like, there was there was a there was a little pamphlet for everything. There were pamphlets for how much sugar you should eat. There were pamphlets. No way. Yes.
Carissa:There were pamphlets definitely about, like, authority, and it it it it touches every area of life. And even the way that that played out, I've had conversations now as an adult where I realized, like, oh, you you're in all of your things don't touch each other. Like, in in my brain, when I'm talking about when I'm talking about clothes that I wear or at least up until a few years ago, if I'm thinking about clothes that I wear, I can't think about that without thinking about my face. If I'm thinking about what I'm eating, I can't it's hard to think about that without assigning moral judgment to it. Every everything in your life becomes a moral decision, And that is exhausting.
Carissa:It is I mean, just it's it's bondage. It is mental bondage to everything in your life carrying so much weight that it's you know, what you're gonna put in your mouth is gonna take you further away from God or closer to God. Wow. Or just every everything became a life or death decision. Everything.
Carissa:And and I saw that play out in my life, in my brother's lives. It's just everything was, it was almost like religious OCD. Like, you can't you can't think a thought about anything without thinking, am I breaking a principle here? Am I defying authority here? Am I it it was emotionally taxing to say the least.
Carissa:Mentally taxing emotionally.
T.J.:So these different scenarios from what you eat, clothing, decision making, are these measured against from your experience, are these measured against, like, the rules from the pamphlets and the teachings from from the organization? Or is this more welled up from god will be angered? You know, where do you think this is, you know, looking back? Well, I now know that you're no longer a part of that. I don't want to jump to that part of the story.
T.J.:But, you know, where's where are these measurements coming from? Is it it's hard for me to it's hard for me to wrap my brain around. I mean Yeah. The sense of guilt and things like that, I mean, I think that covers, any faith perspective. You know, it's not just, you know, some narrow sector organization.
T.J.:You know, it's in Christianity. I think it's another face as well. But that can also be so stifling that there is no room for growth.
Carissa:Yeah. So while we didn't follow everything from the IBLP pamphlets, that central teaching of authority, In in shiny happy people, there's a statement made that every every father becomes their own cult the the cult leader of their own home, and that's kind of was it what it was. So so, yes, there were some standards set up from IBLP, and we we didn't take like, we didn't I didn't have to wear dresses, but I definitely had a modesty code that I had to follow. And it was pretty strict at some points in my life, and it would change because when every when every dad is the cult leader of their own home, then every home kind of gets their own specific rules according to whatever the dad thinks. And so my dad kind of we had influences from my BLP, but then we also had influences from, like, a Pentecostal holiness background.
Carissa:So, you know, we didn't watch a lot of movies. We didn't we didn't there there depending on what his what his feelings were at the time, that would determine what we were or we're not allowed to do. So sometimes he might be feeling a little freer, and we could suddenly watch a couple movies. And then all of a sudden, he he has a conviction that changes, then we're, like, you know, back to nothing. Like, at at one point, we could watch the lord of the rings, and then at one point, we couldn't because, there's a spirit of fear that is you know, it's just kind of very subjective.
Carissa:So so we didn't we didn't have to follow everything that was in the IBLP, but we absolutely had to follow and kind of always be thinking through what would dad think about this. And so as a result of that, you don't you don't learn to reason through things for yourself. You don't learn to listen to the holy spirit for yourself. And I understand that at some level, like, yes, a dad and a mom together, not just the dad. The dad and the mom are there to help guide the kids, but it just it takes it to a different level where you real you truly don't learn to think through things critically until you're older.
T.J.:Yeah. It makes me wonder listening. You know, there's a distinction between God and a parent. For me, as a child and as a youth, you want to please your parents. But my parents weren't God.
T.J.:So it seems like a strange environment as in, did you you know, growing up, did you have a relationship with God and could you envision a relationship of faith without your parents? Because to me that seems like a biblical principle in terms of, you know, having what do they call it now? Like a generational faith. Oh, my parents went to church, you know, they were people of faith, so I'm a person of faith because of that. This is like the other end of that same spectrum though, I would think is I have a faith, but it it gets channeled through the approval rating of, a father or mother figure or both.
Carissa:Yeah. So how that played out in my life was, again, I I know my dad knew God. I I know that whatever whatever things were given to me, whatever all of the baggage that I may have, I know that he loved God, and I know that he I I saw things in his life that I know were the work of God. And so I saw that and I really latched on to it. And I was like, I know that's possible.
Carissa:I know I can learn to know God. Mhmm. But I couldn't. I couldn't at home because of exactly what you're saying. I if I thought something about God, I had to make sure it lined up with what dad thought about God.
Carissa:If I, if I needed to make a decision and I needed to decide, well, is god leading me to do this? Am I would this be a good decision? I even even in college. So when I I was over 18, I couldn't make a decision without thinking, well, he's my authority. So if he's if he doesn't if he doesn't think this is right, then it cannot be God's will because he's my he's my umbrella of protection.
Carissa:And so, yeah, I was I was scared to do anything or think anything or believe anything that did not line up with what he thought.
T.J.:There's a difference between, a teenager, young adult going to their parents for, kinda, counsel and advice. Like Mhmm. In college, you know, I mean, some families are tight. You can be like, hey, this is the classes I'm thinking about taking so that I can get, you know, move towards degree x or y. Mhmm.
T.J.:And, you know, you get feedback that way. But what you're describing is that this is different.
Carissa:Yeah. It was it was it was on another level. For instance, I have I mean, think about just going to a a trusted friend now. Like, I feel like that's probably how most adult kids would go to their parents. It's like, I, you know, I know you've lived a lot of life.
Carissa:I value your opinion. Mhmm. But it it you're right. It was not that. It was if if he doesn't think this is the will of God, this is not the will of God.
Carissa:If he doesn't think this is a true belief about God, this is not a true belief about God. And so, yeah, I I I got married at 24 and lived at home until then. And only I think I I think I lived outside of the house for, like, a month before I got married because my family moved away, and so I moved in with a friend until I got married. But until then, I I didn't even start to be able to kind of have my own relationship with God. You know?
Carissa:That was not that was not totally dependent on, on him. And goodness. Thank Jesus. I married a man who did not he didn't buy into any of that. He like, there was there was not he if I told him he was supposed to be the umbrella, he'd be like, what?
Carissa:There there was nothing in him that wanted to that wanted to direct me in that way or, he's he's the man with the least control issues I've ever seen in my whole life. So that was really healing for me. I was finally able to start thinking through things for myself.
T.J.:Mhmm. So looking back into your childhood, teenage years up until 24 ish, what were some of the, takeaways that made Carissa who she is and has informed your decision making, going on in in your life. And these could be, I don't know, Christmas memories, Yeah. Birthdays.
Carissa:So, every Friday night, we would have game night, you know, with just a gaggle of people.
T.J.:Like board games?
Carissa:Yes. Yes. Every Friday night was board game night, and me and my brothers would sit around with my parents, and we'd just play games all night. And it was, like, just such good team building. Mhmm.
Carissa:That's still one of my favorite things to do is play play board games because of that.
T.J.:Were playing cards were playing cards acceptable?
Carissa:Yep. Yeah. They were. Okay. I knew you.
Carissa:Yep.
T.J.:What a liberal household you grew up in.
Carissa:Yeah. And then, also, this one's a little abstract, but I my dad loved learning, and I really picked that up from him. Like, I was laughing at myself the other day because, like, I'm sitting at my desk right now, and there's are just stacks and stacks of books. And I, like, just the how nerdy he got about word studies and, that was just always a thing in our house. Like, we were always learning something, and I am so, so thankful for that.
T.J.:Did you have theological discussions in the household? I mean, being in the minister's family and being in a in a pretty good sized family in terms of numbers. Mhmm. Did you guys have, like, theological discussions about what the biblical text was talking about that maybe weren't necessarily, like, teaching elements of, like, this is who you should be, this is who you should behave, but, like, the meaning of the text and how it speaks to the people in the household.
Carissa:I mean, we would have, like, periodic family devotions, and my dad was just very didactic in general. So, yeah, he would he would talk about, you know, different passages with us, and we'd have to do, like, memory verses together. And, and then, you know, every Saturday night, he'd be sitting at the at the kitchen table writing his sermons. He'd been work writing it all week, and he'd be wrapping it up on Saturday night. Mhmm.
Carissa:And so he'd kinda, like, preach a sermon to me as and, like and I'd get to give, you know, feedback, like explain this better. How does this work? So that was cool too. So, yeah, I was everything was a teaching moment all the time.
T.J.:Well, that's a value moment as in Yeah. You know, if you're practicing your sermon that way, you're asking for input. And that's a hard thing to do.
Carissa:Yeah. Yeah. It is. He he would he would write out his sermons almost like word for word, but then he'd kinda get up and give them not memorized, but he just knew that he knew it well enough at that point that he could do it without looking at his notes much. But yeah.
T.J.:Well, how did your growing up years and kinda you had mentioned earlier about, fear, making mistakes, were some of the terms that you used. How did this not just completely turn you off to the Christian faith?
Carissa:So,
T.J.:because there didn't seem to be much of a gray area. You're either all in or not at all. It doesn't seem like there's, like, any room for doubt.
Carissa:So doubt is actually a big a big part of my story. Like I said, I'm I moved out at 24, got married, and we were in a couple different churches that I worked at on staff. And I I actually was gonna go back to school. I thought I wanted to be in counseling because I had met this woman named Karen Turner, and she became like a mentor to me. And, she was amazing, and she she knew she she saw the brokenness in me before I even realized how broken I really was, and she was able to sit with me in that and and show me a picture of God that I hadn't seen before, and was really able she she sat in the darkness with me and then walked out of the darkness with me.
Carissa:And it was, I mean, so transformative just to my emotional health and, you know, just a lot of trauma responses I had. And and so I was like, well, I wanna do that for somebody else because that everybody needs that. Whatever that is, everybody needs that.
T.J.:When you and Karen met, did you know was there a place? Was there a moment of, wait, the Christian faith can be different than the way that I was raised? And it was sort of jarring moment. I mean, that what what was that like?
Carissa:So, again, I I hadn't been able to think through things for myself that much. And so she would say I I would say something, and she was like, well, Carissa, what if God is actually like this? And I I would just have to sit there with it and be like, wait. Have I have I thought have I just thought something wrong about God my whole life, and he's actually a lot different than I think he is? Because I thought he was good, but I I think maybe that didn't show up as very good in my life.
Carissa:And so she she would just she would always have a different way of looking at what god might be doing in my life. Like, I'd be thinking always trying to teach me a lesson. She'd be like, well, what if actually this is what you're supposed to be learning? And it was never, like, as harsh as I thought it would be. It was never, it was never as legalistic as I thought it should be.
Carissa:Like, it was just it was just this whole world of freedom. Yeah. Just absolutely rocked my brain.
T.J.:Was that scary?
Carissa:It wasn't then. It got scary later on. It was at at that point, it was it still didn't she's so wise. She's she's a really she's a really wise woman. And so I think she she met me where I was.
T.J.:Mhmm. And
Carissa:she knew that I wasn't quite ready for some of some of the stuff that was to come. But Yeah. So so I'm thinking, well, I I need to go to I need I need to become a counselor. And so I'm I'm signed up for these classes or I'm I'm in the process of signing up for classes, sitting at my computer one day, and I I can't push the button to register. And I'm just sitting there thinking, like, god, this is so much money, and this is so much to put my kids through, so much work.
Carissa:I I really need to know, like, is this a good direction for me to be going? Because in the back of my brain, I think I'd always had, like, seminary as something I wanted to do, but I'm, you know, in a little town in Oklahoma, and I was like, what what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do as a girl with a seminary degree? So I was like, I just really need to hear from you. And I didn't tell Karen that at all.
Carissa:And 2 days later, she texted me just out of the blue and says, I really feel like you're supposed to be at seminary. And so I was like, well, okay. There it was. And then I had another conversation, like, the next day where I'm telling her where I'm telling my friend, another friend of mine, this story, and she told me, Carissa, I was just thinking last night, seminary really makes sense for Charissa. And so it was just really good confirmation that that's what I was supposed to do.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Carissa:And that's where everything really started. Because I get it I get into seminary, and it's, you know, amazing. And I'm learning all these different, just all these different perspectives across all kinds of, different denominations. And I just kinda start to realize, wait. I I had a very narrow exposure to what the faith actually could be.
Carissa:And so for me, because so much had been so much of my faith had been fear based, like, making sure I believe the right thing so that I don't go to hell. I'm making sure, you know, everything was fear based. So then I get into a theology class, and he starts talking about, you know, different things that people believe about salvation. And, I just at at at first, it was freeing, honestly, because I was like, wait. I'm I'm free to think other things than I thought.
Carissa:Mhmm. But as I kind of unwound that ball, I got to a place where I was like, wait. I've unwound this so far that I don't I don't know what's true anymore. And I don't know how to choose what's true because I've never had to sift through it for myself before. I see things about God, like, in the old testament that are really hard for me to accept, and I don't know what to do with that.
Carissa:So kind of just this huge convergence of, like, there's more than you thought, and here's some really bad things that you thought. And there was just kind of this big explosion of, like, I don't know if anything about this is true anymore, and that was terrifying.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Carissa:Again, just because always in the back of my mind, what about hell? What about hell?
T.J.:That divergence of moving from the novelty of being exposed to different ideas Mhmm. Which may not have been a real threat to your current faith. But when you started doing some self reflecting of like, okay, I was raised and I was taught one thing and now I'm in this environment that is pulling back some other layers of being able to view my faith, views of God, views of salvation. That is where the jarring moment is, well, what what do I believe?
Carissa:Yep. Yeah.
T.J.:So how did you handle that?
Carissa:Not very well at first. It was pretty bad. It was really rough. Well, I always had Karen, and that goodness. The things that that woman had to go through with me.
Carissa:The thing that she kept saying to me was, Carissa, I trust God with you. And so I just I I had that as my bedrock the whole time. So I didn't I I got to some pretty depressive states, and I got some to some really anxious states. But because I I just had that, like, echoed in my brain over and over, like, I trust god with you. I I was able to latch onto that.
Carissa:So, like, okay, god. Whatever you're actually like, whatever is actually true, I think I can trust myself with you. And I think I can trust that even though I'm, like, in a whirlwind right now, I think I trust that you're taking me somewhere.
T.J.:That's a big shift between just appeasing god through your achievements and behavior to really letting go and looking at the present and the near future and going, I have no idea what it is. That were my conduct, good or bad, has minimal bearing. That's a big Yeah. That's a pretty big leap in terms of a belief system.
Carissa:And, you know, when I look back, it is. It's a huge leap. And I and I think maybe the little bridges that took that were there to make me able to take that leap were that just over those few years in between, like, you know, 24 and 34, there were moments where I would be confused about something, and I'd have a a very specific question. And it's like a source would come to me, like a book maybe, or like a, you know, random quote on Facebook. And it's just, like, over and over, he would confirm something.
Carissa:God would confirm something. I even though I wasn't, like, you know, hearing an audible voice or something, like, I knew he was talking to me.
T.J.:I
Carissa:knew he was trying to to let me know, hey. I'm I'm gonna get you information that you need. And so there were enough of those that even though I still had an image of a very harsh god, I knew he was with me. I knew he I knew he wasn't gonna just I I I never whatever my whatever my questions were about my faith, I never doubted that there was a god. I maybe doubted how good he was.
Carissa:I maybe doubted I maybe doubted how you actually interact with him, but I never doubted there was a god. And I even in the middle of the swirl, because of all of those little moments, I was like, okay. You're you're still gonna communicate with me. You're still gonna get me information that I need even if I have none of it right now. So, yeah, that was probably and and looking back, I can see those moments really clearly.
Carissa:And I
T.J.:There's not a pamphlet for every question.
Carissa:No. There is not. And it's not definitely not an IVLP pamphlet for every question. They tried, though. They made a good effort.
Carissa:Mhmm. They made a really good effort at it. But
T.J.:Why seminary?
Carissa:Well, I, you know, I kinda talked about how my dad was really didactic, and that was that was kind of how I connected with him was, you know, I just love learning. And, also, these little moments that I've had along the way, anytime I get just because of the way my brain works. Anytime that I get really depressed about something or really anxious about something, normally, I'm just missing I'm just misunderstanding something, or there's just some piece of information that I need. And so, like I said, I wanted to be in a therapist because I wanted to help people out of that the depression and the anxiety and just, like, the the brokenness that we all live in. And I realized for me, specifically, that a lot of times that just comes with good teaching.
Carissa:That just comes with good information. Like, that's what helps me out with depression or the anxiety. And that may not be the same for everybody. But just very specifically me, I don't know in what setting, but that's how I wanna help people is give them better information about God, about what he's what he's really like. But I didn't want it to just be all my ideas.
Carissa:That'd be a bad idea.
T.J.:I was
Carissa:like, I'm so seminary makes sense to me right now even though I don't I don't know specifically what I'll do with it yet. Boy,
T.J.:those weight or those words have weight, you know, to not become what has pained you or that you despise or that have moved away from that full circle of repeating. You know? I've you see it in you see it like an abuse, maybe drug addiction. But maybe that could that doesn't have to be, you know, that extreme. It can just be a play on power.
T.J.:You know? Mhmm. Yeah. Expanding the reach of your role and your responsibility and maybe even your calling beyond what you're actually called to do. Wouldn't it be much easier, Carissa, for you to just tell me what to believe?
Carissa:Yeah. You know? So another you know, this is the Cumberland Road. So part of part of my story was that in the right in the middle of all of this confusion, I wound up in little Cumberland Presbyterian Church
T.J.:Mhmm.
Carissa:In in Ada. And I would go to this Sunday school class, and there were all of these people in there that all thought different things. Like, there was so much room to just think. And I had not I'd I'd been around it with Karen, but I hadn't been around it with anybody else. Like, there's just room for everybody to be working through their process with God in their own way, and that absolutely changed me.
T.J.:Yeah. Because you went from one individual to an actual community.
Carissa:Yes. Yes.
T.J.:How did you find the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
Carissa:Karen was already going there. She had actually grown up in that church, and we so the church that I was at before that, they were they were making some steps toward becoming, more hierarchical and having only male leadership, and that was really stepping on that wound of, you know, as a kid growing up being told, well, you're always gonna be under somebody because you're a woman. And it it became really, really painful, and I just knew, like, I cannot I can't I can't put myself under that again.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Carissa:And so we we didn't know where to go. And I, I think I went with her on Mother's Day. Then after that, I asked my husband, like, do you want do you wanna just try Karen's church? He was like, yeah. Let's do that.
Carissa:And we have not stopped. Oh my gosh. We love it so much. It's
T.J.:So you go to Covenant Carmela Presbyterian Church in Ada, Oklahoma, but for you, it's Karen's church.
Carissa:Yeah. Yes. But but I didn't know. Like I said, she had gone there all growing up, and then she was at different churches for a time. But I didn't realize how that atmosphere of, like, freedom to think had shaped her as a person.
Carissa:Like, she was able to help people because she lets people be who they are. She doesn't need somebody to think just like her. She doesn't need somebody to believe just like her. There's room that just that space for people to have their own journey with God. And that's, you know, Duane Mearns, our pastor.
Carissa:That's that's his that's his song. That is his song every Sunday is there's room for you here to have your own journey with god, and we'll be with you on it. And even, you know, my friends that are there that haven't been there that long, that's we get together and we talk like we have never been in an atmosphere like this.
T.J.:So what is that atmosphere like? What does it allow you to do that you haven't been able to find in other settings? What makes it unique?
Carissa:Well, kinda circling back to what we were talking about with doubt. Like, you're allowed to doubt. Doubt isn't scary there. And so when when you're not motivated by fear, you can actually I don't I don't think you can do true thinking until you're not motivated by fear anymore. I don't think you can really think through an issue unless you're unless you're not trying to think yourself away from hell.
Carissa:You know?
T.J.:Wow. Okay. Wow. That's profound because, yeah, if I'm scared and and maybe scared and fear is 2 different things. But it's hard to think clearly.
T.J.:And any decision I'm thinking out loud here. Any decision made has a sense of urgency. Yes. Yeah. But if if we're allowed to relax and reflect and ponder and given space and time to do that, then maybe the decision making would be more more healthy, more at least more thought.
T.J.:And if it's a mistake, it's a mistake to own. Because because if I go, well, I was rushed, or I made this decision out of fear, or I'd made this decision, I said these words, or I didn't say these words because I didn't know what the response would be, or I don't wanna go to hell. It's different if you've had an opportunity to kind of think it out a little bit. And, yeah, I can think of occasions to be like, oh, man. That was a bad path I took.
T.J.:However, I own it because I thought that that was the way to go. That was the decision to make. Yeah. It probably comes with age too, though.
Carissa:Yeah. A lot of things get better as I get older. I feel that. I'm really excited about getting to 40. I feel like that's gonna be a lot better.
T.J.:So the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Ada, Oklahoma has allowed you to journey and grow. So what about the folks who haven't had that opportunity? You know, what about the other Carissa's in the world? What advice would you give to them if they happen to come across this podcast and they weren't too fearful of going in the hell to listen to it? What advice would you give them?
Carissa:So this is actually a really this is a question that's really dear to me because I do have friends who are kind of starting this journey in in their own churches, that aren't the same kind of environment. And I think maybe just ask the Lord to put to just start with a person or a couple people who are maybe not in the same church with you, but just somebody that you can get in community with that's safe, that is not going to make you think like them, that that will trust god with you, that will say, I I trust god to walk with you, so I don't need to control your process. And ask him to give you community and ask him to really show you that he's with you in the process. And I I think people can make it through that. I think people can make it through that transition even if they're in a church that isn't that isn't that could be a little bit safer Mhmm.
Carissa:To do that.
T.J.:So you're in seminary now. Mhmm. What do you wanna do when you're finished with seminary? What do you think that ministry is gonna look like? And you're not held to your your answer because things change.
T.J.:Yeah. But, you know, ideally, if you had that ability in in many ways that you do, what will that ministry shape? No. What shape will the ministry take after you get done with seminary?
Carissa:You know, I have thought about this a lot, and I honestly could see it going a few directions because I love I love 1 on 1 conversations a lot.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Carissa:Just conversations that I have right now. I love walking through process with people 1 on 1, but I also really love teaching settings. Duane has been just super supportive, and I've had the opportunity to teach in Sunday school and teach them Wednesday night. Actually, I on Wednesday, I taught a contemplative practice for lent. So I I love that too.
Carissa:So I'm still kind of in the process of feeling out, like, what's even available. You know? Like, what kinds of what kinds of things would even be available
T.J.:for you.
Carissa:I think I joked with you earlier. I have this sticker that says, I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm doing it for the lord. And that that's honestly how I feel. I'm I'm really I've gotten real comfy with with uncertainty, and so I'm really okay. I'm okay not knowing exactly what I'm going to do and knowing that I'm on I'm I'm in the right process, and I'm okay with being in the right process even if I don't know exactly what it will look like.
T.J.:I wanna go back just a little bit. So I imagine that your your change away from a more controlling fundamentalist environment. Those are my words, not yours. And then you had the this opportunity to, look at face differently, look at the world differently. I mean, were there moments of like where you just watched any movie that you wanted to and you just poured pure sugar in your mouth and you know, just that there were there moment were there moments of rebellion?
T.J.:Or or was it was it more gradual or what? What does that look like?
Carissa:I I don't I don't know that there were moments where I don't think there were moments where I'm like, I'm just gonna, like, get it all out right now. But there I definitely saw a change in my mind of, like, okay. I I don't think that, you know, this kind of movie is as bad for me as they're saying it is. And so, like, I would watch and maybe watch some more, and then just naturally, I'd be like, I don't really feel that great when I watch that movie.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Carissa:And so just kind of so, like, maybe a little bit. I mean, I definitely did things that neither your IBLP teachings nor my dad specifically would probably think we're that great, but it was almost there was there was a lot of, like it's just self regulation. Like, if you if you're not motivated by fear anymore, then you can really start to listen to, like, what does my spirit actually want? Like, my spirit doesn't want to, you know, watch something that just makes me terrified all the time, for instance. Like, for instance, I'll never I'll never watch, like, a like a like a horror movie would never be, like, appealing to me.
Carissa:I'd never be like, well, that's gonna send you to hell if you watch a horror movie. But at the same time, I I I think I just started to learn to just trust myself and not be led by not be led by a lot of rules in general and just kinda trust that the spirit of God within me can direct me pretty well.
T.J.:And and being able to discern what we think we need at that time. You know? And then there's a difference between, like, need and want. You know, what do I need to help get me through this day? You know, what do I need when I'm looking at entertainment?
T.J.:You know, what do I expect from my, you know, something that's intended to be fun, you know. But what what is my threshold on what that what that means? Yeah. I and I Yeah. I think that comes with adulthood as well, but also as we mature in the faith.
T.J.:So with that in mind, what kind of books, what kind of music are you listening to, what kind of movies in your life that are speaking to you now. They can be something that you watched or or read, a time back, but something that has spoken to you that you would recommend.
Carissa:Let's see. So books. I am a reader. I love reading. Peter Inns wrote this book called the sin of certainty, and that book saved my life.
Carissa:I think I've used saved my life a lot during a lot during this podcast.
T.J.:You've been saved
Carissa:a lot. Yeah. I have.
T.J.:I really
Carissa:have. But it just reading it, I think I can even imagine him having those same patterns of fear that I have. And then just in such a scholarly way, like, walks you out of that. Like, you you don't have to be sure about everything. It's okay to have some doubts.
Carissa:It's okay to rethink some things. And the way that he the way that he frames it, both biblically and historically, are just amazing. So that's a great book. This, you know, this is an old one. This I missed this one the first go around, though, because the circle that I was in said it was heretical.
Carissa:But, the shack and, actually, one of my seminary professors recommended it to me when I first started going through this. But, you know, I kinda said I had these moments where I knew that to I I identified the holy spirit as the one who's bringing me this information that I really, really needed. So I remember talking to him, and I all said, I, you know, I really feel like the holy spirit is really good, but I don't know about God. I don't know about God the father. And so he well, he had act he asked the question, but so he recommended The Shack to me, and that book messed me up.
Carissa:It did. I was crying for, like, 3 days. Like, you actually are good. But it was
T.J.:I don't think I've heard anybody say that the Shaq has messed them up.
Carissa:Oh my gosh. I was I was a mess. But he just so is so good at showing how, you know, the trinity. They're all the same. Like, if you if you have felt the goodness of one of them, you can know the goodness of all of them.
Carissa:Let's see. Another book. I had another one that I was thinking. That's it. Oh, it's a Rob Bell book, and I think it's what is the Bible by Rob Bell.
Carissa:And I was you know, like I said, I had gotten to this point where I was like, I don't know if I like the old testament god very much. And I when I read that book, he had such a different way of reading the Bible, and that was one of those things that I needed. I only knew one way of reading the Bible, and he gave me another way to read the bible, and I needed that. So those 3. Also, in terms of things to watch, this isn't necessarily, like, a specific recommendation, but I have really gotten into, like, historical series.
Carissa:And I think it's because the conditions were so horrible, like, so so bad, like, just barbaric times. And when I think about the process of God making all things new, I think that makes it real to me because I can see in real time, oh, like, humanity was horrific, and we've already come this far. And we can even come further because he's always saving everything. Like, he's making everything new. And so those even though they're really dark to
T.J.:watch, they're somehow really
Carissa:encouraging to me. So, wall, but
T.J.:How about music? You said that, growing up, your your family was musically inclined Yeah. For pleasure and not for church or anything like that? Because you you play in the the church band, right, or sing or participate or Yeah.
Carissa:Yeah. I sing and play piano every once in a while.
T.J.:What kind of music do you like, more for pleasure, or is it the same?
Carissa:Actually, I told somebody, I missed out on all pop culture. Just all of it. Just got none of it. So I'm discovering bands that probably everybody's known about for forever. But, the 1975, I cannot stop listening to the 1975, and I am a little bit obsessive.
Carissa:So I'm kinda just stuck on them right now and haven't discovered that many more, but I'm sure I will. Yeah.
T.J.:Well, thank you so much, Carissa, for opening up the doors to your life and walking me through a space that I am unfamiliar with, you know, an experience that, is is new to me and for bearing it all. And, and I'm I'm excited for your seminary experience and what ministry will look like for you in the coming months.
Carissa:Well, thank you. I had a great time.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road. In closing, I leave with you the words from author and Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spall. Those whose religious security is rooted in a literal bible do not want that security disturbed. They are not happy when facts challenge their biblical understanding or when nuances in the text are introduced or when they are forced to deal with either contradictions or changing insights. The Bible, as they understand it, shares in the permanence and certainty of God and convinces them that they are right and justifies the enormous fear and even negativity that lies so close to the surface and fundamentalistic religion.
T.J.:For biblical literalists, there is always an enemy, an enemy to be defeated in mortal combat. Thanks for listening.
