Chris Fleming - Communal Christianity & Christian Education In A Post Pandemic World
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. The following is a faith conversation with Chris Fleming, a minister and the adult ministry coordinator for the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination. In our time together, we discuss Chris' faith journey, beginning at the age of 18, his work in the restaurant industry, communal Christianity, and what Christian education looks like in a post pandemic world. At times, our conversation is light and humorous, deep and thoughtful, and peering into the future, encouraging as we think of ways for meaningful discipleship. Friends, enjoy this conversation with Chris Fleming.
T.J.:I'm so grateful that you have volunteered to be a guest. How are you, sir?
Chris:I am doing very well. I was starting to get panicked that TJ didn't like me because he hadn't asked me on, so I'm glad that I can be on here.
T.J.:We have to spread the the staff out a bit. You know, just do staff here and there, and and not have them back to back. So you're up.
Chris:Too much of a good thing. I get it.
T.J.:Yeah. It's you're up. It's your turn. I have no system in terms of who in terms of denominational employees, who goes next. But thank you for helping me out and, filling in this gap for the podcast.
T.J.:Chris, if you don't mind, let's take a minute. If you'll, talk about coordinator of adult ministries, what that means in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and, just describe what that is, what you do.
Chris:So I think there has been a desire that that be modified from what it was in the past. There's always been a heavy emphasis on the encounter, making sure that gets published and people write for it and all that good jazz. And, I think when they hired me, we were trying to think of ways to expand our curriculums or to expand our ministries, especially to what we call the 3rd age ministry, which is, you know, ministry to that, you know, retirement, We'll say retirement age, and up, and then also maybe get more connected with the transition when, you know, Nathan Wheeler gets the youth and young adults. And that's a demographic that is hard for most churches that that switch from the youth once you graduate high school to, you know, starting that family. Kinda a lot of denominations struggle with keeping kids in in the in the faith community.
Chris:And so I think there's a there's a desire to kind of address those things too. So in practicality, wishes don't wash dishes, I say. Sometimes we can put more expand and have the time to do so.
T.J.:So what is The Encounter?
Chris:The Encounter, I often say, is the greatest piece of theological and biblical writing since John wrote the Revelation. And the Cumberland Presbyterian Church happens to be the genesis of that writing. The Encounter is the longest running, ed or curriculum piece of education the Carmelite Christian Union Church has. I think we're working on our 90th year this year, 91st year, and it's been in publication for, you know, a continuous ninety something years. It's been the adult Sunday School material for the church.
Chris:It's experienced, you know, throughout the years, different iterations, and we're in our, I guess, our 2nd year of a new format and and new new way of distribution now for the Encounter. We do have it more digital. We have a podcast that you can get, that will accompany each lesson. So, that's one way that I've tried to change the encounter, is to kinda get it reformatted, maybe that's easier to teach and and easier for a small group to pick up than maybe it was before. So that's what The Encounter is.
Chris:It is the, it is the thing that the Carmelite Prosegene Church has done and done well, I believe, for 90 some odd
T.J.:years. Let's talk a little bit more about who the encounter is for. How do you envision the curriculum to be utilized by the church?
Chris:So the Encounter, probably starting back in probably maybe before, but 95 or 96 took particular hold in the adult Sunday school world in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. We were still selling a pretty good chunk of of encounters. But from about 96 to 97, till now, we've experienced the decline of readership, and it's correlated with the age, that age group, so those that were 55, 5019, 90 are still the ones using the encounter, and we have not really been able to gain a foothold in a generation younger than that. A lot of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church churches or smaller churches anyway, you have, like, almost a one room adult class anyway. So you could have the 25 year olds with the retired up to, you know, however old the Lord has blessed someone with life all in the same Sunday school class.
Chris:And and so that's about the only interaction so that's where it's at mostly, and so that's that's our we wanna try to brand it in such a way that, it could be used or picked up a little bit easier in in a young younger adult class, whatever term we use in ages when we talk about the Carmelite Presidio Church.
T.J.:Right. How are writers chosen for The Encounter? Because with each quarter, this is a quarterly curriculum, With each quarter, you have a different writer or maybe like a group of writers. What does that process look like?
Chris:So that can vary. Sometimes, if I know it's a certain book that, I know from experience, either through listening to a couple sermons that I've heard from someone or maybe I've had class with them at seminary or I've taught them at pause or something like that, if if I know the the content that's going to be written on, I'll have somebody in mind. However, if it's just trying to figure out someone who writes, I like to I use Evotions kind of as a filter, like if somebody if I've asked somebody to write for Evotions, if you all know what that is. You can go to cpcmc.org/ evotions. It's like devocean, but take off the d.
Chris:That's our way of being really cool and and using electronic means to deliver the so evotions. If somebody writes and, I think, well, no, that was, you know, that was 250 words of sweet theological goodness that was applicable to the soul. That means that somebody has the ability to take something and to serve it up, as best as possible for learning. And then sometimes there's people that are respected, that have taught in our institutions, you know, Bethel or the seminary or in the Paws program that had just over time proven that they they know how to handle the word. And so that's you know, it's a filtering process, but it's how we get there.
T.J.:Why would I choose the encounter out of all the different types of traditional Sunday school material for adults? What makes The Encounter stand out?
Chris:There is some home field advantage. Like, it is being written by people that you fellowship with. We have the, this is just one, but we have the the advantage in the Carmelon Presbyterian Church to not only say we're connectional, but we are driven by connection. In some way, we're a big we're a small denomination, but a big church. And so the chances are, you know the person who's written something.
Chris:And so there's some kind of pride and you've seen that person grow up, or you've seen the maturation of that person. And maybe your church had a part in that, or your presbytery, or the camps they went to, or something like that, and it's just an interest there. But the second thing would be, I know this, there's there's many Cumberland Presbyterian churches that don't use The Encounter, and I purposely go to the Sunday School class and they'll use other publishers.
T.J.:And I
Chris:think to myself, That is I'm not going to say it's terrible, but, like, what are you learning? And it disappoints me that a church is settled for something that is so generic that you learn nothing distinctive, or you're not challenged in your faith, especially in particular ways, and and that has been a comment that I'd received about the encounter in the past that I think I've addressed, And and I think that we have a curriculum that is both challenging, informative, and devotional, And I think you can get that from the encounter. So
T.J.:What role do you play in the encounter, in the formation and the making of the encounter?
Chris:I am I don't do this well. I'm a better teacher than I am an editor. Technically, I'm supposed to be the one that goes through after another editor goes through it and check all and make sure we got all the mistakes done, but I'm terrible at that. I think what so the way I understand my role, I'm not somebody and in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, we do practice this, I don't want to say, understand this right when I say it, a big tent theology. We have our theology, but we are a big tent, and we not only say that as a motto, but we practice that.
Chris:And so, so the counter in the past, some again, some of the criticisms that I heard of it is, because we have different people writing all the time. I I've said this before, if your audience knows, some people are John MacArthur and they're gonna be like, verse 1, here's what it is. Verse 2, here's what it is. And then some people are like Fred Craddock that's, like, gonna talk for 35 minutes and at the end say, and Jesus said, you should be salt and light, which is fine, except when you have that quarter after quarter and there's those swings, there's a real variation on how you teach that or the way it's, and so that made it hard. And in the same way, we have those who are real conservative in our church, and we have some that aren't as conservative or maybe a little bit more liberal, which if it's just the swings were tough.
Chris:So my job was to enforce some, I don't know what to say, continuity. So I created new guidelines, new headings that force a writer to go through the process of at least the same process. And so it turns out to be a little bit more uniform, I think a little bit easier to teach from week to week. And I think we've worked hard on the discussion questions, which is kind of vital in today's world, in the way people like to teach now.
T.J.:So over the years, the format and maybe the narrative, the telling of the narrative has just been shaped a little bit.
Chris:Well, so so also in the past, the, Carmelite Presbyterian Church has used the, lectionary. I don't know if lectionary is the best term for it, but, I think it's the United Bible System. No. National Council of Churches years ago created kind of a, a common Sunday school lectionary. It's a 7 year cycle, and it's used throughout Christendom, Lutherans, Catholics, whatever.
Chris:Everybody has a little varying thing, you know. You know, there's some saint that needs a feast somewhere that not all churches agree on. But, for the most part, you use these churches use the same the same Sunday school text each week. So a denominational Lutheran church would be the same text as, like, the text in, like, a Presbyterian church. Obviously, different publishers have different writers.
Chris:And and I x nayed that for 2 years, 3 years because, I did a lot of research when I first got hired, studying I mean, you know, probably talked to people in most US presbyteries. For the most part, from what I understand, the overseas presbyteries don't use the encounter for various and standard reasons, and so I didn't really delve too deep into that. But pretty much every, US presbytery, I talked to pastors, elders, and Sunday school teachers, and I heard concerns that people just didn't know the story of the Bible, how Genesis connected with Isaiah, connected with Luke, connected with Revelation. And so there so I made a choice to follow what's called the narrative lectionary. And, basically, what it does is try to go the entire biblical story, starting with creation and then one of the patriarchs, matriarchs, to the minor prophets, major prophet, wisdom, gospel, you know, polyamliterature.
Chris:And so you follow the story continuously for the year from Genesis to Revelation or or whatnot. So, I thought that was important because I do think that's, something that we like. Christians are getting more proof texty, either to win an argument or to justify their position on something, and then less knowledgeable about the the biblical story of creation, fall, and redemption. So I decided it was worth doing 2 or 3 years on the story.
T.J.:How was that going?
Chris:So, of course, when we first switched to the new format, and at the same time, I switched to, again, a different lectionary, I got letters and emails and phone calls expressing concern.
T.J.:You received, responses.
Chris:I received responses, but even in the responses I received, like the, I know that we addressed every problem that we were trying to address even in the the ones that were more critical. So, now that being said, I don't think I've received a critical email or response from anybody in 7 months now. If I go to a presbytery or if I go to somewhere, people are appreciative. I mean, the biggest the biggest criticism that we receive is is, sometimes I'll get an email that says, what? Are religion professors writing this now?
Chris:And and and I know that might be I don't know if that's a condemnation on our writing or if it's a condemnation on the Christian education and the church in general, because there are certain things that they said, well, this was over our head, and I'm like, that might be over our head today, but 25 years ago, that was something a junior high school, Sunday school member would know.
T.J.:Well, that leads me into my next question. Chris, what is Christian education? And what does it look like in the 21st century?
Chris:So I'm glad you asked this question. I've been preparing for that for the last, oh, 6 weeks of my life. Currently, right now, I'm teaching the, Paulist class for Christian education 2. And and I've Christian education is my burning, it's my burning flame in my heart because I think it's the key to preaching is is obviously important to the salvation of souls, and and good preaching is definitely the primary method that a that a preacher is called to do. But I would also say that the Great Commission, it's a, you know, make disciples.
Chris:And I think that we have failed, generally speaking, as a church, just completely. And I think the problems that we're all experiencing in our denominations or in our churches can probably be led back to a breakdown in Christian education. I cannot ever remember the, football coach that said this phrase, but it was one of those football coaches, you know, where all their kids ended up getting on probation or something or got suspended. And somebody asked him, you know, well, what's wrong? And he said, well, you recruit your own problems.
Chris:And what he was saying is, you know, a lot of the problems you're facing now didn't start now. It was then. And and the breakdown in Christian education then leads to what we're experiencing now, with people not staying in the church or with people not understanding biblical theology or worldview or whatever else. So what does it look like in the 21st century? I would be able to answer that if it hadn't been for COVID, but now I think COVID's changed that even, and I think we're just now learning.
Chris:So what I'm hopeful for is, I don't know how to explain this. There's a book out that some people won't agree with the theology at all, and I don't I don't wanna defend it for the theology. But it's called the Benedict Option, and it's a theory of discipleship or just a theory of learning in a society that's becoming increasingly, I don't want to say hostile, but increasingly averse to certain Christian thoughts and practices. And then I've always thought, the Amish education system, which we won't go into that, but the Little Red Schoolhouse, the 1 room schoolhouse, the way they in they the way they use, you know, work, school, play as all part of teaching the Christian faith, I think, lends us a good way to think about Christian education in the 21st century.
T.J.:What would that look like with adults?
Chris:It would look like I think we have to I've worked with this a little bit. 1 of my doctor my doctorate project was trying to answer that question, in the sense of, I think within the church, we have especially the Carmelo Presbyterian Church, we have the traditional Sunday school that runs the you know, and those churches that have moved a little beyond the traditional Sunday school have small groups. Right? But I think to push it a little further, that has to become more of, in a way everybody's gonna laugh, but hang with me. But like monastic movements to where you just have 10 or 12 people, maybe 6 or 7 families that group together in the church, that becomes your small group, but you're doing your activities together.
Chris:In some sense, you're explicitly living the faith among one another, not a cult, not not an actual mon monastic movement, but you're just intentionally saying, hey. On you know, next week, we're all going over to the Joneses'. We're gonna have dinner. We're gonna discuss whatever. And then some somebody's kid has a ballgame on Friday, so as many as possible go.
Chris:But it's just you you begin to cluster in in a discipling relationship that includes bible study, includes the fellowship mills, it includes mentorship. You know? So, like, if you have a newlywed couple that's part of a group that has 2 couples that are 75 years old and been married for 50 years, But it's an intentional relationship in the faith.
T.J.:Okay. That's interesting. So the educational piece may not fit into the traditional parameters that we currently think of of I'm gonna go to a location, typically a church, church basement or upstairs or fellowship hall, and for 45 minutes or less, receive information about a particular passage in scripture or particular theme. And then when I leave that room, enter into a worship experience and then return home. But your idea, you're suggesting that maybe discipleship is more encompassing to other aspects of life.
Chris:It's an amazing idea, isn't it? It's almost biblical.
T.J.:Well, yeah. Isn't it interesting that there is really nothing new under the sun? You know, it's just, there's nothing novel about it. It just reorients. I can see that reorienting, the way that we, form our communities of faith.
Chris:Yeah. And some of it, I wanna compliment you. I mean, I had been thinking this of course, like I said, I was working on for this doc doctoral project, and I had to I had to figure out what methods or Christian education in the history of the Christian church excelled. And normally, it was things like it was the monastic movements that even in spite of culture or civilization crumbling around them, they flourished, as as a body, as fellowships. They would create more monastic movements within cities that flourished and so on and so forth.
Chris:So then, I'm connecting this with you, I think that also ties into what we call the worshiping communities. I don't know how long our churches will be able to sustain a full time pastor and sustain a building that costs more money than they can, you know, than they're paying in salaries. Like, I think the last, last study I saw between the building and the and the pastor salary, that's, you know, maintenance and grounds or whatever else, it's like 84% of the budget in many churches. And so if you've only got 16% going to something else, I guarantee you, you're not doing a whole lot of work in the community, not on not on because you don't want to. It's just 80 84, 85 percent of your budget.
Chris:I don't think you can sustain that.
T.J.:How would this work? Because in North America, and really in other parts of the world as well, we very much compartmentalize our time and our activities. You know, martial arts classes 3 o'clock in the afternoon on Tuesday. Sunday school is at 9 AM on a Sunday. Doctor's appointment, you know, 10 AM on a Thursday.
T.J.:What you're asking for in terms of Christian education, I'm pushing here in terms of what this could actually actually look like, is more of a blending into our daily activities. How do you reshape my thoughts, our thoughts on schedule and compartmentalizing, and a very task oriented society?
Chris:This this sound practice Sabbath, in this sense. Like, one of the only ways that someone can successfully practice the Sabbath is what happens, the Sabbath becomes the anchor, and then you have to prioritize from that, and sometimes you say no. Now that again, so that's, this isn't bulletproof at all, but I'm saying if you're trying to say, I want to grow in my faith in the best way possible, then that's your goal. It's not the busyness of the world. And it might mean you have to, and and these are questions you have to ask, but when you talk about, like, football practice for the kids or whatever, that's fine.
Chris:But I mean, work it into, if you can't justify that it's important, then why are you doing it? Right? And so, and I think community then can help people do that, as well. I mean, like, if you have a community and, like, you need some help getting people to and from again, taking somebody to football practice, there's 15, 20 minutes in the car of ministry. If you've had kids, you know how that works.
Chris:It might be the only time your kid actually talks to you. Right? Actually. So,
T.J.:You do have a
Chris:But anyway
T.J.:You're right. You do have a captured audience in terms of a moving vehicle.
Chris:Can't go anywhere. But no, I think, I guess what I'm trying to say is, is that I think the question itself reveals the fact that we've said You have church, and then you have the real world, and I think we've got it reversed. I think the church is the real world, and this stuff that we do here is that fleeting stuff that will one day fall away, but we're captured by it, and we've allowed it to dictate the church world.
T.J.:So one of the things that may be helpful is actually changing our set of questions. Like, my question was, okay, I'm very task calendar based. Right. You know, hourly based. And it was like, well, no, we can look at our days in our in very different way and that is time spent with one another, time spent with Sabbath, time spent with prayer, time spent with study.
T.J.:And that could all be the shared time.
Chris:Yeah.
T.J.:That could all be the same 15, 45 minute bracket.
Chris:It could be, but I guess what I'm saying is the other part would be you're intentionally choosing a different way. This is where the Amish stuff comes in. They go they their children have to go to school until they're 8th grade, and all of their subject material is from scripture pretty much. They learn how to sing the Psalms. They learn how to read through the epistles, you know, whatever the like, everything's geared around that.
Chris:But then after the 8th grade, they're done with their learning. Now they're gonna go be Amish. Amish. The rest of their learning is on the farm. It's almost like a real life tech school, vocational college, if you want to.
Chris:And so there's always been some clash between the United States government and, the Amish because they, they sometimes want their kids to go to school till at least 16 or till at least 18. They always have these fights. But the Amish do good at this. Like, 96, 97 percent of Amish stay Amish, and they're all competent in their life, but they've simply chosen something different than what the United States government has chosen, right? So like, that's what I mean.
Chris:I mean, you've got to make your choices on what's important.
T.J.:But doesn't it help to be raised in a particular culture to kind of remain in that culture? I'm gonna be terribly influenced in my thought processes, in my decision making, even if I say, well, I'm not a practicing Christian, I'm still influenced by those cultural values, those religious values, those moral values, those Christian values.
Chris:Yeah. So there's an old joke, like, you know, there's over in Scotland or Ireland or whatever. Like, somebody was trying to relate at night, go somewhere, and he stopped by 1 of the or his tire blows or something, and somebody pulls up to help him be like, are you Catholic or Protestant? And the guy says, well, neither. I'm an atheist.
Chris:He was like, okay. Fine. Are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist? But so but I mean, you know, because we're all we all have our values. Like, you know, like, there's different types of of secularism.
Chris:You know? Are you a Christian secularist or an, you know, atheistic? So I get what you're saying. Still, I guess what I'm trying to say, whatever we can choose what we're formed by. So, like, so part of Christian education is a practice or at least the teaching, I think it should be, a lot of our churches don't do it, would be the practice of spiritual disciplines.
Chris:So things like I've said before, Sabbath, if you're gonna practice that, you're gonna have to make priority choices on what you do during the week and how how many times you say yes to somebody when they ask you to do things. But then there's also those disciplines of simplicity, where you can simply reject having to have a for bettering home. Alright? Or you can practice, you know, silence and solitude to where you don't have to have Netflix. But it's just if you form and shape and you practice and pattern your way of life around something, like, I don't know.
Chris:I had a stupid idea to buy a new car back when I was, you know, younger, and it was great because it was a nice car and I could afford the payments. But for some reason, the oil changes went from $20 to 65 because it had to have certain oil. And then I couldn't just use regular gas. I had to use premium. So then it tossed me out.
Chris:And so I was like, okay. I have stuff now, but it cost me more. And I so I have to work more or I can't buy some other thing. I think we're just in a little bit of a we're in a little bit of a rat race of our own choosing. And again, I think it goes back to priority.
Chris:Also though, so far as education is concerned, especially since COVID happened, there's been a stat that has been not paid attention to, but there's been, like, a 120% rise in people choosing homeschooling, not not simply because, like, they couldn't go to school, but kids stayed home and then all of a sudden, mom and dad were like, we could just homeschool them. Number 1, because they don't like certain political things that are perceived. Or number 2, we had our high school here in Kentucky. In the in, like, a 4 year span, there were 3 teachers that were arrested and charged with sexual, you know, activities against minors. And you only go so far until you think, well, I just don't want my kids to be a part of that either.
Chris:And so there's different ways to live, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
T.J.:And you're challenging us to kind of view our perceptions and our understandings of Christian education and how those could be improved.
Chris:I don't know about improved because for every every I mean, you know, some churches are doing a 100% with the way they're doing it. Right? Probably not. Nobody does 100%. But I guess what I am saying is that for the vast majority of churches, due to resources, human and, you know, monetary resources, we'll have to switch the way we do things or the way just reading habits for people, attention spans, these kinds of things.
Chris:I think there's probably a different way to do it.
T.J.:So looking back on your life, Chris, how has Christian education influenced you? Or did it?
Chris:Yes, but it wasn't from the church. So the Christian education that I received, it was actually I went to a Bible college, and that 4 years, obviously, I changed my some of my habits. I changed my thinking. Certainly, my worldview has changed, and it wasn't necessarily the classes. It was the classes plus all the experiences I had with fellow Christians.
Chris:That Bible college, I guess some people might call it a cult, but it really wasn't. Like the If you were a full time professor, you had to live on campus, your family had to live on campus. You're part of your you know, it was a Bible college, the professors didn't make a lot of money. So part of the package was they got free food in the cafeteria for their family. And so when you went in there, you were eating with your professors and their family.
Chris:And so they had Johnson University, at least when I went there, they offset the cost of the students like 35%, 40% because you had to work like 10 or 12 hours a week, at the college. It's it was something a little more than work study. It but you were working side by side with the staff. Right? Like, it was just you were and I thought this might be something what it's supposed to look like, you know, when I reflected back.
Chris:As opposed to, like, some of the seminaries, you go to class, you drive in, you go to class, and then you drive home, and you're not really part of community. Or you know what I'm saying? Like, there was something about that that I took that that I said, this is probably right.
T.J.:Well, how did that change you as a young man? I mean, I would think that, you know, you're probably career oriented, had goals in mind, and which are Yeah. Which are realistic for any young person or any person in general. And then to be introduced to a, gosh, a a large community like that where there's that connectiveness of of where the education and and service and study are kind of intertwined. Were you did you know that going into it?
Chris:No. I had no clue. I had no clue what it would be like. I became a Christian when I was 18. It was the year I turned 18 that I ended up on the Bible College.
Chris:Like, I didn't know anything. Like, during our first like, our night that we moved in, we were doing devotions on the dorm. You know, we had we went to level 3 in our dorm. We had devotions on Monday night, and I was trying to be, like, you know, really active. I was going to be, like, a good person.
Chris:And so they're like, who wants to read, you know, what was it? 1st John 3/19. And so I opened up my Bible to the 1st John that I knew, which was the gospel of John. I didn't know the difference at the time. That's how, like, knew I was to the faith kind of thing.
Chris:And so I went from that to, you know I've been in the scriptures a while. I know it pretty well in theology. What what I found and what changed my mind of course, I always wanted to make money. I wanna run my own business and all that good jazz. There was one professor there, doctor David Rees.
Chris:He's, passed away now, from some type of cancer. I forgot what it was, but, this is a man who had had 3 different degrees, one from UCLA, one from UC Berkeley, and then one from one of the colleges across the pond. He could have taught at any university of higher education in America or and incredibly, he spoke different languages. He, he was amazing. He chose to make, like, $50,000 and live on campus with a bunch of students because that's what God had called him to do.
Chris:And so I thought, that's you know, no human being is perfect, but just the care and the passion with which he had for the calling and the pursuit of God, and the way he was able to use his mind and his heart to do it, I said, that's what I want to be. Like, that that's the guy when I grow up. I want to be like him. And, and, you know, I haven't reached that yet, but it is my overarching goal is and and I learned that from living and seeing and being, And and my experience of humanity is not as awful as other people's in the sense. Like, when my married my wife, my wife said, well, you're one of the few good men left on the earth.
Chris:She has said that. She's said it before. But I thought, no, I went to school with, like, a 1000 people just like me. And where she didn't think anybody like that existed, that's what I knew. And there, and now looking back on it, I think, Yeah, that was a unique experience that I'm certainly glad I had.
T.J.:Chris, do you think that making a profession of faith, becoming Christian at age 18 influenced your decision to attend the university and the, communal type of environment that it gave?
Chris:I don't know. That was a weird thing. I had no desire in the world to go to Bethel because I didn't know like, I had no connection, so I didn't wanna go to Bethel. I knew that. I did go and visit Bethel, but there was nothing that piqued my interest.
Chris:Well, hold on.
T.J.:Let let's pause there just for a moment. So you you had a profession of faith at the age of 18 and felt connected to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in what way?
Chris:Well, so that's where I had my conversion experience.
T.J.:Okay.
Chris:Just on a weird kind of long story, we won't go into it, but we just we picked churches to go on Easter Sunday morning. It was one way to satisfy my mother. My dad and me would go to church on Sunday morning with her or Easter Sunday morning. And, like, that church did this really large Easter egg hunt for the community. So my dad was like, let's try this one.
Chris:So they had a sunrise service. We went, and and I was converted. Cool experience. And so, yeah, I had an affinity toward the Carmelo Presbyterian Church because, obviously, that's where I was converted, but I didn't have any affinity with Bethel or anything. And my grandfather, dad's dad, was a minister in the Disciples of Christ Church.
Chris:He began his journey before there was even a Disciples of Christ Church. It was independent Christian churches and Church of Christ. So this Bible College was a Church of Christ slash Independent Church Bible College, and I had no intention to go there either. But, man, when I visited, it was like my conversion experience. It's you know, the Holy Spirit was there.
Chris:And I was like, how did this happen? Like, how did this happen that of all places. Anyway, so that that's how I ended up there, call the Holy Spirit.
T.J.:Well, I'm really intrigued. I don't know this story. How did an Easter egg hunt and a Sunrise service lead into a profession of faith?
Chris:It all starts with a girl, TJ. It always does. So, I had that rebellion streak in me probably like every other kid. My mom was a really devout Christian. Mike's really devout really devout.
Chris:My dad was not not a Christian. My dad was just, like, you know, everyday man. Like, you know, didn't have a problem with faith, didn't really wanna go to church every Sunday because the golf course is good too. And so, like, I went to church every Sunday with my mom up until I was about 6 or 7, and then I just had the complete and total, like, you can't make me go. And dad was at the golf course, so he couldn't either.
Chris:So, so then I just stopped going. And then and then just I was a jerk in life, and so I really went down like the, I'm sure people my age, maybe your age, you know the term you probably know the names, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Bennett. These what what people have termed the 4 horsemen of the atheist apocalypse or something. I mean, I went all down that rabbit hole, to where I was, like, just probably rebellion from my mother. You know, if she ever asked me to go to church, no.
Chris:Again, the caveat was I'd go to Easter sunrise service and then a midnight mass of some type or or midnight service at Christmas Eve just because I found those beautiful. Mhmm.
T.J.:Not
Chris:because I really wanted to go, but, anyway, so then I was working at Captain D's. Long story, I became a manager when I was 18, and the dining room manager, she was know, pretty young, but she was a stout Church of Christ person, like real stout. And we you know, after work, if you're in the restaurant, you either go drink after you close or, you know, you go to the Waffle House or you just do something. Right? I mean, like, the time is different.
Chris:You don't just go home. And in Hendersonville, where I was growing up, really Waffle House is the only thing that's open if you don't want to, like, travel down to Nashville to go to the club. Right. So we would just have these really long talks, over waffles and omelettes. And, you know, I'd make fun of her a little bit because, you know, she believed in this Jesus person thing.
Chris:And then she would tell me I'm going to hell because that's what you Christ do a lot. And so but we liked each other. And, and so when anyway, she she just hypothetically said, hey. You know, like, if you were to become a Christian, how would you respond? I'm like, well, the only way you'd respond is to devote your life to that thing, which is the ultimate truth.
Chris:Like, that's no duh. I mean, that's what you do. And so then 2 weeks later was Easter, and and and I just like Pastor Norman, Maury Norman, old minister in the Carmelite Presbyterian Church, He was probably 76 or so when he preached that Sunday, and, he read just in the middle of it, he read Hebrews. You know, faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of that which is hoped for, and whatever at that point in time, call it, I'm not a cessationist anymore. Never have been because I know I had an experience of some kind, a vision, whatever it may be, that I'm logically could not say that I I I no longer knew Christ.
Chris:Like, I had an experience that I I otherwise could not explain from my mind or heart. So so then I went to work that same Sunday and she was like, Hey, how was church service? I was like, I want to talk to you right now. We can talk later. And then when I said, I think I kind of had a convergent experience or sometimes she's like, Oh, you did?
Chris:She's like, So remember that question I asked you a couple weeks ago? I'm like, shut up. Let me deal with this in my own. You Christians are so terrible, always pushing yourself on people. But, logically, I mean, that's how I am though.
Chris:If I'm if I'm on something, I'm like a dog on a bone. I'll figure it out. And so that's it's led to here.
T.J.:Yeah. Let's talk more about how you arrived here, the journey of it. So that same girl and coworker, did she end up becoming, maybe a mentor or a guide along the way?
Chris:No. So the way that works, I had worked at Captain D's from the time I was 16 to, even when I went to college, really, a couple years into it, I would still come home on the weekends and work because I would work on Friday Saturdays at captain d's, and then I would my church was so sweet. TJ, you know me. I I don't I don't do children well, but they were just trying to figure out a way to give me money. So I was their youth minister, which meant I showed up and taught a Sunday school class to, like, 4
T.J.:kids,
Chris:every Sunday. But that was their way of supporting me. And so so, I came back where she actually transferred and she got a promotion to somewhere else. So Nat pretty much stopped that. Like, I didn't have her the discipling came through the college, but also through, you know, the restaurant.
Chris:The restaurant really prepared me for a lot of things. And so I say my favorite Bible verse and my my ministry verse is from Amos, where Amos says, you know, I'm neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet. I'm a caretaker of trees. Right? And I've always told people I'm neither a preacher nor the son of a preacher, but, you know, I'm a flipper of hamburgers and a fryer of fish.
Chris:But God said go, so I went. And so I think that's that's been my my thing. So long story, I like education. I've been through a lot of education. Then when I was 28 years old, Doctor.
Chris:Jay Earhart Brown from the seminary had recommended me to go preach at a church in Paducah, Kentucky, and, I did. And, at the time at the restaurant, I was making, like, $85 a year. Right? Like, I was making good money, sometimes more than that, depending on how my bonuses were. And the Margaret Hing Church was like, Hey, you're not ordained yet, so we'll give you $20,000 if you want to come up here and be our preacher.
Chris:And waffled on that one quite a bit until 1 Sunday night. I don't know. Some guy. I was I was a GM at Crystal's at the time. Some guy just ripped me up and down because there was an onion onion on his burger.
Chris:And so, like, I decided, sure, you're losing $60. Nobody's gonna yell yell yell about an onion. So that's when I decided I'd put 2 weeks' notice in. So I pastored at the Margaret Hink Church, and that was my next journey.
T.J.:Were you experiencing a call, calling into some sort of ministry just beyond being a a Christian?
Chris:No. I like money a lot. So like I did. Like, I like working. I like I really liked it's not that I just like money.
Chris:I really like the restaurant world. I come to find out the reason why I like it is because I like to think in terms of systems, And like, if you can manage a restaurant, it's because you've learned the system, you've learned the production of the food to get it out to the customer as quick as possible, and how can you put people in place to succeed? That sounds like a church thing, but it works in the restaurant too. Like, how many people you need in that one place to make this run the best you possibly can run it? Methods of training people.
Chris:I love training people. Like for 4 years or so, I was a new store opener with TGI Fridays. So like my job was to go to places and train people. And so I learned TGI Fridays is amazing if anybody ever gets to work there, if you get in their training program, they, they train better than the church has ever dreamed to train people. And so I've taken a lot of that and applied it to the church.
Chris:So so my calling, yes, I thought I could, a, make money, b, do what I love, and I could do the work of God in a sense because, you know, there's a lot of need of Jesus in the restaurant business. He needs to be known.
T.J.:From, customer to employee,
Chris:Yeah. Yeah. People need more Jesus.
T.J.:Well, how did that work out trying to balance all all those different, desires in your life, callings in your life?
Chris:Yeah. I mean, like I said, I think I think once, once the elders of the Margaret Hink Church issued a call, I was able to ignore it, you know, and do what I wanted to because I didn't have anything real serious. I mean, it's easy to just keep going with what you're comfortable with unless something, you know, breaks that up. So I didn't really have to struggle with it until that. And then, that's the only time I think I've ever struggled with what to do with money because of money or comfort.
Chris:So that took a little while, but I God just made it so miserable. I remember for about 2 or 3 weeks, everything was so miserable for me. Going to work was miserable. The people I worked with, they were miserable, and they always had been, but now I knew it, like, I recognized it. The job was miserable.
Chris:Again, it probably was before. It's just that now there was something else that maybe was better or what I was supposed to do, and so that started working psychologically. And so once I got yelled at because of an onion, I was like, yeah. Yeah. We're good.
T.J.:Have you experienced a level of misery like that before or since?
Chris:Nope. Uh-uh. But I'll say that before, no, because I was young and stupid. Like, there was no misery in my life. I took advantage of all life's pleasures, and so no.
Chris:But since it I it was a hard lesson to learn. Like, I really I don't like feeling miserable. And so, at the first whiff of it, I'll look for where God wants me to be. And so, you know, and I've been fortunate enough. I've worked I just but I haven't ever felt God really pushing me except there.
Chris:Like, I've only worked at Captain d's, TGI Fridays, Crystal's, and Margaret Hink or the Carmelo Presbyterian Church. You know, so I keep jobs for a long time. And and so I I've never, you know, I just I I knew it was time for me to go up Margaret Haink, And probably, probably the day that I knew that, you know, I'd done everything I could, this job that I'm currently in was posted online. And and somebody called me and said, this job is what you need to be doing. I was like, well, I'll put in an application for it.
Chris:We'll see what happens. And so again, I'm here.
T.J.:Speaking of here, how do you know that God is here? Where do you see God and God's presence today?
Chris:I'll say specifically speaking, just for myself, I'll tell you, like, my family is an everyday reminder of God's faithfulness for various and sundry reasons. So that's on a personal level. Just every day I wake up and and I realize, like, I have this family. I've had no children of my own, but I have 3 kids and a wife and a home and and that's been a wild thing. Now, generally speaking, I am not pessimistic on the Carmel Grove Prostitution Church.
Chris:Through this job, I have seen God call people to ministry to specific churches that if I were the one, like, thinking about it, it'd be like, this church is done, but God has brought some people in. I'm like, wow. Or I've had conversations with, ministers who have had a renewed, I don't know, renewed hope or renewed calling or whatever that that, you know, the only way that happens is if God's working. Yeah. I think,
T.J.:I think the, confession of faith for Cumberland Presbyterian, and no, maybe it's in the constitution, it talks about a zeal, a zeal for ministry. And I've always found that interesting because it's, you know, it's an adjective. And is it makes this dry document not quite so dry, you know? The do's and the don'ts. Then it's like, oh, it's this zeal.
T.J.:Yeah. And I know what you're talking about. It's fascinating to see the mystery of God's movement, in the world and among, covenant of people, community of people, and seeing zeal where you thought all you might see is waste.
Chris:Yeah. Dry bones, but things are yeah.
T.J.:Yeah.
Chris:Yeah. I mean, you know, even in the midst of the struggle that we have or that we experience on a Presbyterian level or between certain factions in the church, my hope is, is that the passion behind the differences or the discussions that we're having is a zeal for God. If it can stay that way, if it really is that, that people are trying their best to stretch themselves, to know more about God and how God's moving, then I'm I'm pumped. If, however, it's devolving into just people being mean to one another, not as pumped.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Chris:But that's just one particular part of right now of our church. Just in the broad just being able to go to different presbyteries, meeting some people, there is a zeal that I didn't expect to find always.
T.J.:Taking everything that we've talked about, Chris, from Encounter, adult ministries, 3rd Age Ministries, Christian Education, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. My question is, what would you like all of this to become? You know, they're all interconnected in in various ways. What would you like that to become? Bigger.
Chris:More people attending then. More spiritual growth. I don't know. I don't know how to answer that question. I'd like it to be there's a certain, again, I don't know the exact term you would use, ethos or pathos to the Carmelon Presbyterian Church that I certainly would never wanna lose.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Chris:And so I hope whatever ministry we approach or things that we do, we do so in the spirit of what has been Cumberland in the past. Again, I don't know how to explain it except when I go to denominational events from other denominations, it's just a different feel. There's just a different feel in a different way, and I hope we keep that distinctive. But what I think I would like to say is whatever you talk about, whether it be our church or denomination or Christian education, I hope that it simply is an intentional thing. I guess that would be my thing, would be like, whatever we do is, we're intentional about it, especially in in, Christian education.
Chris:But in anything, our evangelism or our our meetings from general assembly down to the session, like, I don't know how many session meetings that I did that it was like 5:30. I'm like, Crap, I forgot the agenda. And I think that we've got to give God more than that at every level, and I think simply taking a breath and saying, We're going to be intentional in our pursuit of spirituality in all things.
T.J.:And that goes back to kind of, reordering our lives with a different nexus, a different pivotal point that
Chris:Yes.
T.J.:Moves us, not just individually, but collectively towards a common practice, a common celebration, a common worship.
Chris:That'd be a good book, title.
T.J.:Well, speaking of books, what I'd like to ask guests, what are you reading? I know you're quite the reader. So what are you reading that you like to share? You think is might be interest of to others?
Chris:I've had to read the covenant of grace, like, 7 times in the past couple months.
T.J.:By Hubert Morrow.
Chris:Yeah. Yeah. Because we're working spoiler alert, TJ and I are working on a encounter, quarter that will be centered around the confession of faith. And so I've been doing a lot of reading in that. And I say, particularly, one of the reasons why I would say present that, I'm not sure if I agree with him a 100%.
Chris:A lot of my education has been in the reformed, reformed church, but Hubert Morrow presents an idea of our understanding of the covenant of works or the covenant of grace, and his theory is is that there's just been a covenant of grace, not necessarily works, that it's always been a covenant of love, not based on obedience and these kinds of things, and that's something new in the Reformed world. So anyway, that's just something that I'm reading a lot. I have gone back. Again, people might not agree with the the even the culture or the doctrine position of it, but the Benedict Option is one that I've I've read in the past while preparing for this pause class I'm teaching right now. I'm trying to think.
Chris:You know, I mean, I read a lot, so I don't know. But I'll say a book that helps me or that I've found enjoyment with and I've actually found a lot of ministry out of is, The Hitchhiker's God of the Galaxy. Alright. I think everybody should read that. In the absurdity, Douglas Adams was decidedly not a Christian, and he presents basically the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy as a presentation of his understanding of life.
Chris:So for instance, the quest is to find the answer to the question. And they find out the answer to the question is 42, but they don't know what the question is. So now they've got to find the question of the ultimate answer of the or of the universe and the meaning of life. And so, I've read that book probably once a year for the last 10, 15 years, or I'll listen to it on audio just because it reminds me of how another group of people who aren't centered in Christ think about questions of existence, questions of, you know, what we're doing here.
T.J.:Search for meaning.
Chris:Yeah. And then the other one that, that was really big on me, this will take forever, and most people don't want to read it, I'm sure. But, Les Mis, at least watch but if you read the book, that's probably the greatest, the greatest commentary on someone who follows the law versus someone who follows grace. So you got Jean Valjean, which is the criminal that is completely transformed by the grace of God, but then you have, oh, what's the the sheriff or the policeman. That's Javier, Inspector Javier.
Chris:It's his whole goal and pursuit to get Jean Valjean because he broke the law because he stole bread when he was a kid and he was hungry. And so for his entire life, Jean d'Al Jean is an is this person who who just went his whole life rest of his life. He he got a new identity. He helped everybody, loved everybody, but then the person who was righteous, who was by the law, couldn't practice forgiveness. And so that that book is an amazing I can't I can't do the musical.
Chris:It's too long. Like, 4 songs I like. Reading the book is pretty amazing. Plus because the book has more theological treaties within it than you get in the,
T.J.:Okay. Well, I like your mix of theology, contemporary, classic in terms of books. And you picked some that I were familiar with. I also like that as well. Chris, anything that you want to promote?
T.J.:You talked about 3rd age ministry, The Encounter, what anything in your umbrella of adult ministries that you'd like to point people to where they can find out more?
Chris:Day in the park. The last 2 years, I've called it day in the park because of COVID, but this year, it's day in the park. So that's, that's one of the things we tried to do for 3rd age ministry. We actually so on October 4th, which is a Tuesday, from 10 o'clock in the morning till noon, we'll have, the historical foundation. They show up in their period costume.
Chris:The last time we did it, they also had apple cider and cookies, so there's that. But they give you kind of a tour of the different monuments and, you know, what life was like during the time of the founding of the Carmelo Presbyterian Church. And then from, you know, from about 11 so you got from 10 to 11 to fellowship with all your all your buddies and to learn about the Carmel Preston Church. Then at 11, we're gonna have reverend Sandra Shepherd lead us in worship, and then reverend Duane Tias will be our our preacher. And so we'll have a worship service there in the chapel.
Chris:Last time we we, you know, we had a 120 people last time we had it, and it was a good day of fellowship. At noon, you can either go home or head down to the lodge, and we have lunch together. You know, I'll give them the heads up and say that there's a bunch of Cumberland Presbyterian that that are hungry, and so they're ready for us.
T.J.:Alright. And and for those not in the know, the day at the park is at, Montgomery Bell State Park. Yep. That's just outside of, Dixon, Tennessee. And that is 45 minutes kind of, south of Nashville heading towards Memphis.
T.J.:What else you got?
Chris:Well, you know, if you can talk about the encounter once, you can talk about the encounter twice. And so I would like to say you could always find the encounter. I will say, if you go on YouTube and you search Encounter Bible Study, it'll come to our channel. And every week, myself, Reverend Rebecca Zardy, and I have just a kind of an extra 45 minute kind of talk about the lesson that you might, appreciate if you're a teacher or if you just want to get in a little deeper on the lesson. If you go to cpcmc.org/encounter and scroll down a little bit, you can sign up for a weekly newsletter that has some different web pages you can go visit to kind of get some more detail about the lesson as well.
Chris:That's all I'm gonna do for right now because it really the encounter is the place where Christian education begins and ends, CJ.
T.J.:Chris, thank you for your time. Thank you for helping me with Christian education. Thank you for sharing your faith journey. And, thank you for making the connection in terms of the restaurant world and the world of faith and how those 2 overlap. And thank you for your ministry.
Chris:Alright. Thank you for your ministry, and I do want to say thank you to all the Cumberland Presbyterian I've got to meet out there. Y'all have made me feel welcome in this job.
T.J.:Alright. And thank you, Chris. Appreciate it.
T.J.:If you enjoy Cumberland Road, consider subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcasting site. And now, let me leave you with some words from the novel Les Mis. He thought of the grandeur and presence of God, of the future eternity, that strange mystery, Of the eternity past, a mystery still more strange. Of all the infinities which pierce their way into all of his senses beneath his eyes, and without seeking to comprehend the incomprehensible, he gazed upon it. He did not study God, he was dazzled by God. He considered those magnificent conjunctions of atoms, which communicate aspects to matter, reveal forces by verifying them, create individualities in unity, proportions in extent, the innumerable in the infinite, and through light produce beauty. Thank you for listening to The Cumberland Road.
