Chris Warren - The Faith Community Is The Source Of Redemption
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. This is The Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. It is not every day that we get to converse about embracing mystery, differences in theology and its practices, and finding redemption. A conversation with Chris Warren touches on each of these and more. Chris is a minister, a musician, a songwriter, even providing the song for this podcast episode, an author, and a blogger. We talk about his early faith experiences in the Catholic church, how music led to ministry, and his novel Chasing the Sun. He shares how the Christian church is meant to be 1 and how the faith community can be a source of redemption for humanity. I hope you enjoyed this conversation on the Cumberland Road as much as I did with Reverend Chris Warren. Chris Warren, thank you for joining me on the podcast.
T.J.:Let's begin our conversation with a book that you wrote, what, 5 I think we're going on 6 years now.
Chris:It's a little longer. Yeah.
T.J.:Called Chasing the Sun. It's a novel that you wrote. And the protagonist, his name is Josh, and he is actually going on his own faith journey. And I thought this would be a good introduction, just kind of briefly talk about this novel that you wrote and a little bit of background and your relationship, if there is any, with Josh.
Chris:Yeah. Great. So, it's been a little while since I've thought about that, but as I was writing it, I was approximately the same age as the protagonist, at least by the end of the novel. And, it's not I mean, there's not anything in it that is strictly autobiographical, but the idea of that faith journey is pretty pretty close to my heart. It it's something that I I have gone through.
Chris:So the the main character, not to give much away because I know many of your listeners will want to get a copy and read it now that they've privet. But, the the main character goes through a lot of, hardship, loss, and struggles with how to make sense of those things in a world that he had always understood to be, under the control or or the, ordering at least of God. And has some some pretty, pretty interesting conversations with people along the way about those questions. The the title comes from the idea that it's it's kind of strange, but the idea that if you were able to travel fast enough, you could, travel around the world and stay in sunlight all the time. And the idea behind that is what if you were able to make that the way that you live your life that you're you're always trying to, stay in the sunlight rather than experience darkness?
Chris:And, I I think by the end, it's clear that that's not possible, but, it takes a whole lot of energy to try.
T.J.:And Josh, the main character, he tries that, does he?
Chris:He does. He does. At least to a certain extent. Yeah. But it was his it's his theory, you know, that he came up with as a junior in high school.
Chris:So all of our theories that we came up with as juniors in high school typically pan out.
T.J.:Well, I haven't finished it. Josh is still in high school, but I haven't been intrigued by it because he's a true seeker. This is my takeaway so far. And the the bravery, the courage that this character shows and actually seeking out answers to his questions, about life, about faith, about growing up, about interpersonal relationships. I thought, Chris, this would be a good place for us to start because he's asking life meaning questions, the meaning of life, and how I'm connected to the people that I'm around.
Chris:Yeah. I think that's I'm I'm really glad that you, connected with that in that way. That's what I intended. So I'm I'm glad that you you know, sometimes when you write things, you you hope that people will understand what you're trying to convey. So to hear that you you got that that's where I was headed is just gratifying.
T.J.:So we've been talking about protagonist Josh in Chasing the Sun, and as he's seeking life experiences and and how he is connected with God, let's talk about Chris for a minute. And, Chris, share a meaningful experience that you've had with God.
Chris:Sure. Probably well, when I was a a child, I I grew up in in the Catholic church in the city that's a little bit north of Nashville, and I was always a pretty, spiritual person, I guess. I mean, I I certainly was a believer. I had a lot of questions, some that that, I didn't, you know, get great answers to, but some some I continue to seek answers to. But I remember when I was, you know, just pretty young, every year in the Catholic church, at least at that time, there was a Sunday set aside for, encouragement of young men to become priests.
Chris:And, every time that came around, I'd get kind of this this, tugging, this idea that, you know, you you need to to find a way to serve god. But I was, I knew I don't know how young, but I knew very young that when I got older, I wanted to be married and have a family. And so I thought I must be misunderstanding this call. There must be something different that I'm supposed to be thinking about or doing. And so, I started serving in a church, when I was 15.
Chris:Now this by by saying that, some churches, some of your listeners may know, they hire people to be in their choir. And so when I was 15, my very generous, voice teacher, who was also a, music director at a church in Nashville, offered me a job to be one of the tenors in the choir at the church. And, she gave me a little bit of money to do it. And, you know, I was, you know, 15, 16, 17, and it's a little bit of walking around money. Right?
Chris:And it felt like I was on top of the world just being able to do stuff like that. But, so I did that, until I went to college. And then when I went to college, I started serving at a church in, in Nashville because I I went to Vanderbilt, and I I went, I served at an Episcopal church in Nashville as their, you know, one of the tenors in the choir. So I kept a a connection to the church, but I I, you know, I wasn't going to the Catholic services even though I considered myself Catholic still. But my 2nd year of college, was when I was hired at the West Nashville Church to be their music director.
Chris:And, I was I was 19 years old. I could sing, but I had no experience at directing. And, I to this day, I'm not sure why they took a chance on me, to be completely honest. But they did, and it was a great experience for me, and I served that church until I graduated from college. And went away, did a master's degree in music, came back, did it, worked at a terrible corporate job.
Chris:And then after a while, ended up back at West Nashville as their music director again starting in early 2001. And the reason I'm giving you all that background is that one of the the experience in which I felt called to ministry in a complete way. So over the course of time, there were tuggings here. There were, other, you know, ideas there that, maybe there's some type of service for God in my future. Not that you can't serve God in another way, but, I mean, specifically as clergy.
Chris:After I'd been at the West Nashville Church for a short time, they were in need of a youth director. And, the pastor at that time, Ricky Page, took me out to lunch, and I didn't know why. I mean, I I just figured we were going out to, you know, have lunch. And he said, I've been thinking that maybe you might wanna try working with the youth at the church. And, honestly, I thought that was a terrible idea.
Chris:I didn't think I had any gifts to to work with youth. I didn't feel like I had enough understanding of my own faith to be able to share that. But, but he said, look, this is a, you know, this is a short term commitment. It'd be like a probationary period. At the end of that, we'll just see how it works.
Chris:And if it's, if it's not working, then we'll just go back to the way things were. And so, I, I took that on. And and to be totally honest, one reason I took it on was I I mean, we were young and and, I we were broke. And, it was it was gonna help a little bit, you know, as far as us being able to pay our mortgage. So, but it was only a short time after I started doing that that I realized this love that I had for young people and and the questions that they had about the faith.
Chris:That had occurred to me, but I hadn't dug deeply into because I didn't really have to. I didn't have anyone I needed to give answers to. But when when questions came up about, you know, very deep questions about, eternity and salvation and things like that, I I found myself being really intrigued and wanting to make sense of those things. And then, we went together on a mission trip. This was a mission trip to East Tennessee.
Chris:It was a an area that needed, you know, a lot of help. It is very impoverished. I think we had about 12 youth and maybe 3 adults on there. We all fit on the 15 passenger bus, so somewhere under the number 15. But we got there in the 1st night.
Chris:Now now remember, I'm a music director by day and a youth director by night. Right? But those two things didn't ever go together. And yet we got to this place, and this this young man pulled out a guitar and started playing. And the youth group, which always sat, and and you are well, this may not translate for everybody, but you being from the West Nashville church will know they always sat in that back corner and didn't ever crack a hymnal.
Chris:Right? But it this particular thing, this guy got a guitar. And I watched these kids that I'd never really even seen sing just singing their guts out because they they connected with that style of music, and they connected with that style of worship. And I saw a different side of them, and I saw where music and and the theology portion of what I did could come together. And it was because of that trip that I started writing and recording Christian music.
Chris:And it was because of that trip that I really wanted to learn more about what I was saying, because I didn't want to teach people poor theology in music. And I started thinking, I I really need an education in this. And then it was, well, if I'm gonna get an education in this, maybe I have something to say as a pastor. And then it was, well, maybe one day I'll go ahead and get ordained after I've gone through this music career that I'm doing. And then through the time of school, it was, wow.
Chris:We really need to be able to translate the things that are being taught and the things that are being learned in our institutes of higher education back to the church because people in the church, a lot of them, are not aware of the way that biblical scholarship works or the things that that are even being talked about at that level. And so, that was a kind of a long answer for a single experience, but I think that all wrapped up, that was my that's kind of my narrative of Paul into the ministry, all of those things together.
T.J.:With your Catholic background and then the opportunity to worship in the Episcopal church and then in a Protestant church, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, how did all that mesh together for you?
Chris:Well, it was it was very different. I mean, you know, I I've worshiped in a lot of different places now, thankfully, over the years. So it's been, it's been I mean, I I appreciate a lot of the things in each of those churches. So, the Catholic church, the church that I went to did not use hymnals. We sang sort of folk music.
Chris:It it it at least that's the style of music. I mean, they were written by, a guy, I think, in the 19 seventies, a bunch of these songs, and, they're you know, it's very, Eucharistic as far as the the the emphasis. Right? There's a whole lot of songs about communion because you need a lot of communion songs if you're gonna have communion every week. Right?
Chris:Right. But they're they were they were really good, you know, just kind of folky kind of songs, and we had a couple of guitars and a bongo in our, you know, our band at the church where I went. And then I went to the Methodist church, which is where my my voice teacher was, and it was very similar to the Cumberland Presbyterian Worship Style. A little bit of liturgy, 3 hymns, sermon toward the end, you know, all the same kinds of elements that we're used to. But the Episcopal church has a lot, uses a much more classical style of music.
Chris:I mean, that particular Episcopal church does. And I love that style of music, and I I do miss out on that in, some places. You know, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church can use, you know, classical music, but we don't use, you know, a lot of, Mozart or or or Latin motets or something like that in worship. It it was such a joy to make music with those very accomplished musicians. I mean, it's a very high level of musicianship at that particular Episcopal church.
Chris:I I was one of 16 hired people to be in their choir. So now I know all of us who are Cumberland Presbyterians have just crunched the numbers for the budget. Right? And we're like, nope. That never worked.
Chris:This particular church, it worked. So they they're they're doing well. But, anyway, that that type of music. And then I I like the higher liturgies that that the Episcopal church has and that the Catholic church has. I like that kind of consistency.
Chris:But I am I mean, I love the worship service that we have in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. I love the shape of it. At least the one that that we use, I know that they're they're very different in different churches, but we have a flow to the liturgy where we start with a call to worship and a prayer and then a song of, you know, greeting or or, you know, the the opening hymn. And then then we turn to confession and we say, before we get too deep into this, we need to say we're sorry because we messed up this week, you know. Mhmm.
Chris:And and not just as individuals, but as a community. And that's the sometimes that's the hard thing to get across in the, in the confession time that we're we're it's a communal confession. And then we go into, after we have confession, we, you know, have an opportunity to give back to the church. And after we give back to the church, we have an opportunity to celebrate that with song. And then we have an opportunity for scripture to be read and opened up to us.
Chris:And then we have a blessing. You know? And I think that that shape of the worship, is beautiful. I I do I do kind of, have some sadness that a lot of churches are turning away from liturgy because I think that there is a lot in that that we you know, it's not only ancient. I think it also speaks to who we are as humans that we sort of need to go through some steps to get to the right place.
T.J.:Yeah. There is a centering that can come with an order of worship of of centering of why we've gathered as a community of faith and celebrating the new week that is beginning and seeking that forgiveness that you mentioned earlier
Chris:Mhmm.
T.J.:And and then satisfying that hunger for the good news, the word, to carry us into the new week that we've just begun. And, one way, not the only way, but one way to be able to do that is through our liturgy.
Chris:Agreed. Yeah. I realize that people worship in different ways and that way works well for me.
T.J.:Taking your gifts of music and your journey and experiences in in different faith backgrounds, if you had to summarize it all up, Chris, what how would you say that you have changed, and what would you want others to know about your faith journey?
Chris:Yeah. I think that I mean, as I've already mentioned, you know, I've been I've been exposed to several different styles of worship and several different, types of of even theological understanding. I left out for a period in there. I I went to the University of Michigan for a couple of years and and did a another degree in music. And while I was there, I served a a Presbyterian USA church as their music director.
Chris:So, while most of my experiences have been, you know, in in the south, I have had some, spent some time even in in the northern, Presbyterian church. I think that through those different, experiences, one thing that I've learned is that even deeply ingrained beliefs or understandings or even, readings of scripture can be changed over time with study. I I think that, you know, being, exposed to many different styles of preaching and many different, preachers. I've seen how scripture can be interpreted in many different ways, and that has that's given license, I think, for me, to be able to look at the scripture with a much more open mind than maybe I would have otherwise. And, oh, because of that, I have become, I think, more inclusive in my theology of of other ideas, of other types of people that maybe if I had stayed in the same church my whole life, I might not have ever been exposed to people who worship differently or who think differently.
Chris:And and in my education too, and I I don't just mean my theological education, but in my education for music, you know, I did my first degree at Vanderbilt with bachelor's degree and then master's degree at Michigan. And in in both of those, programs, I met people that I may never have been exposed to outside of that situation and, learned a little bit more about how different people, think, but that how so many different people in different ways are seekers after God in ways that I wouldn't have understood. And, so I think that that's the biggest change that I've had over time is that with all those different exposures that I've found that there's a much more universal love for God than just folks like me. You know? And I I I that's that I'm really passionate about that.
T.J.:When individuals have exposure to other, interpretations of the scripture or, faith practices, one of the responses is to actually become maybe defensive or, another response could be is to to, kind of embrace or find the opportunities to be enriched by these experiences. Which one do you think has served you better, in your faith journey?
Chris:That's a really good question because I have done both of those things. Right? I mean, I have been where someone would say something, and I would just bristle because that just I cannot, you know, like, that I've never been exposed to that idea that has to just be wrong. Right?
T.J.:Right.
Chris:But what I mean, the question was what has served me better and what has served me better is time and contemplation and really thinking deeply about the place from which that person who has introduced me to whatever new idea it is, is coming from. I have rarely found someone who is trying to advocate for evil. Right? So if I find someone who has a different, idea about who god is and what it is what it means for god to be good, then it has served me well to stop and think that maybe it's worth, you know, really considering. And I have I have rejected ideas that I've, you know, heard after taking time to consider them, right, as we all have.
Chris:I've I've gone through and said, okay. This is what they mean by that. This is what they're trying to say by that. I understand it, but I still it doesn't make sense with me, with the God that I know. But at the same time, I don't want to, I'm not in the business of judging other people's, relationship with God.
Chris:So just because it doesn't gel with my relationship with god doesn't mean it's not part of who god is. It's god's a whole lot more than I can understand.
T.J.:Chris, just recently, I was doing some reflection on something that a colleague and friend had shared with me, several years ago. And I remember just kind of rejecting that idea. I I just couldn't think long term. It wasn't it wasn't necessarily a theological aspect. It was more of just kind of life
Chris:Mhmm.
T.J.:To to kinda pace yourself and think the long haul. And I wasn't at a place to be able to hear that. You know, kind of the instant gratification and, you know, you do this, the results should be immediate or or shortly thereafter. And I was reflecting and and, I was like, in many ways, that's true. I couldn't hear it or understand it at that time, or I just clearly rejected it.
T.J.:But now I'm I'm revisiting that aspect, and and I'm embracing pieces of it. Chris, have you ever rejected a life thought, a theological thought, and said, no. That's not for me. And then come back later as you've gotten a little bit older and revisit to that idea and maybe embrace part of it. And if so, do you mind sharing?
Chris:I'm trying to think of a really good example, but I do know that I have done that a lot. Just to here's a, kind of not surprising example for those because I've already said that I grew up Catholic. So the theology of the Eucharist in the Catholic church is very different from the theology of the Eucharist in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And I embraced that theology when I was Catholic. I'd note I don't know that I ever clearly understood it, and I don't think that it was intended to be clearly understood.
Chris:Right? It's always supposed to be a mystery, and even the the communion in the the Cumberland Presbyterian Church is mystery. Right? There's a mystery to it. But I was very protective of that type of theology at one time in my life, so much so that it was a struggle to to to even contemplate leaving the Catholic church no matter what I did as a career.
Chris:I mean, obviously, I wouldn't be a pastor in another denomination, but if I was going to be a musician and and work at, say, another church, I could have done that and remained Catholic. So it took a long time of thinking about, contemplating, wondering about how I could make that change in my in in my way of thinking theologically. And now, you know, clearly, I fully adopt our understanding of the the Eucharist and communion. That's happened with me with, understanding of of things like sexism in the church. Not that I think that I was ever particularly sexist, but, of course, coming from a Catholic background, the there are no female priests.
Chris:I always thought that was wrong. I mean, I don't know if wrong is the right term. I always thought it was at least curious and and maybe in some ways kind of indefensible. I had a close relationship to, the the nun who was assigned to our church, And it was at least to my mind, I don't wanna put words in her mouth, but to me, it seemed clearly painful to her that she was not able to perform the same rituals that the priest could. And I always thought that was terrible.
Chris:And and, so that was another change over the course of time was I mean, it was something that I had thought about, but then I moved to a spot where I don't have to accept that type of teaching. I can move to a different place where I can be, more accepting. We we tend to still have, a preference and for male ministers in our denomination, and I think that that's too bad. But I think I do see it changing slowly. Over time, I see more, of our, you know, female pastors being, becoming senior pastors at churches.
Chris:And so I think that's that's really great. I've had that same type of movement in my own heart in the question about heterosexism and, same sex relationships. And I had, I I was very, I don't know what the right term is. I I I was very different at an earlier time in my life where I, was not open to that possibility. And then, scripture over time has been open to me in a different way.
Chris:And, I see such value in those types of relationships. You know, the the book of Genesis says at the beginning that it's not good for the human to be alone. Humans are made for relationship. Humans are made for, intimate relationship. And if God created people to be in intimate relationship with each other, in whatever way, I I do think it's not good for the human to be alone.
Chris:And, so that's a that's a that's been a big change. And, of course, as many of your listeners will know, that's another thing that I'm passionate about.
T.J.:Yeah. The back to the question there and in going through, you know, the process of revisiting whatever it is in life, there's a point of being humble. At least that's what I was like, oh, man. I need to revisit how I look at life and thinking long term and short term instead of just short term and letting go of what I thought well, short term is, you know, you work and then you see the results. You do this, and, you know, the project is finished, then you get to see the results.
T.J.:And there's some value that I am discovering is to pace yourself, kind of think long term. But it requires, yeah, a sense of humbleness, I think, within me of going, oh, okay. There's other ideas out there about life. Mhmm. And to for me to reject that thought and that advice ended up not serving me very well.
T.J.:And it wasn't until, you know, reflection in the future.
Chris:Well and that and the idea of at least, taking time to thoroughly think about the ideas that are being presented to you gives you an opportunity to come to know someone better. So just in talking about this, you you reminded me of a kind of, I don't know, not not a great important moment in my life, but something that I will always remember. So I I mentioned earlier that I grew up in in the Nashville area, and then I went to Vanderbilt. And my sophomore year at Vanderbilt, I lived in a dormitory that's called that was called Confederate Memorial Dorm. And it is since its name has since been changed to just Memorial Dorm.
Chris:But while I was there, there was, one of the people who lived in that dorm had hung a, one of the confederate stars and bars flags in their dorm room. And I may not get all of the, particulars of this straight, but if I remember correctly, their roommate was African American and was upset and wanted this the flag to be taken down. And my immediate response was, why? What's the big deal? It's just a flag.
Chris:And I it gave me an opportunity then to step back and think about it from a different perspective. You know, having grown up in the south and especially in grew up growing up in the eighties and early nineties, that was a symbol that was just pretty much everywhere. So to me, it was almost innocuous. But to someone who, saw that in a different way, It was oppressive. And as as the person that I was, it gave me an opportunity to see that symbol from a different perspective.
Chris:And, in a way that that, kind of not really important and affecting me moment really has affected me for the course of my life because it gave me an opportunity to do just what you're talking about, to try to see things from a different perspective and say, well, if I was this, how would I feel about that? And it's changed me immensely.
T.J.:As with all institutions, there is there is none that is perfect, including including the institution of the Christian faith and and the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, just church in general. However, Chris, what is it about your relationship with God that just keeps you coming back and identifying with this faith?
Chris:It is the idea, the knowledge, the assurance that although what you just said is true, that religious institutions are imperfect, that God is bigger, that God is working, that God is within the people of the church, that if scripture teaches us anything, it teaches us that god can take things that we mess up and redeem them. And I I believe that god is and can can and is redeeming the church. And I and I don't mean that to say something negative about the church. I mean that as a continual process that the church has never reached perfection and will never reach perfection, and god is continuing to redeem it, towards something that is more like who god is. So I think that those things are I mean, I am Christian partially because I was I I was born a Christian.
Chris:That's how I understand God. That's how I see God is through the lens of Christianity and through Jesus as the savior. And so I will continue to identify as that in hopes that I can live up to that moniker.
T.J.:What is it about that redemption that that keeps you drawn? Because I think oftentimes, we we look at the failures of of the community of faith. And the easiest thing is to throw up our hands and just go, okay, I've had enough. So what is it about that redemption found in God that keeps you here, keeps you in relationship, and keeps you serving the church?
Chris:Yeah. I think that what you said is very true. The idea that it would be easy to throw up our hands and say, I I can't do this anymore because it's too, frustrating. The focus is on the wrong things. We're we're, you know, we're trying to do this over here when really the important stuff is over there.
Chris:But and I I think one of the things that keeps me TJ is, all the people who have done that, who have looked at the church and said, there's just nothing left for me there. I just I think there is something there. I think there's something left for the people who have walked away and who have said, I don't need your church. I can I can just worship God on my own? I don't need your community.
Chris:I can do this individually. No. The community is the source of that redemption, because it happens through the community, and and I've seen it, I've seen it happen when when people have made mistakes and they've come back to the church, and the church has gotten up out of the pews and wrapped their arms around them. I've seen it happen when, when someone who, thought that there was nothing left for them suddenly finds a new purpose in what they're doing, through the church or through the community of faith. And one of the things that keeps me at it is that I want the people who stepped away from the church to know that that God is love and that if the church has made a mistake and and pushed you away, that's that can be redeemed too.
Chris:You you can you can find that love in the church and in the community, and you can certainly find it in God. And I wanna offer that to people, and I guess that that maybe is the main thing that brings me back is that idea that I maybe can serve that purpose for people who have who have felt like the church has let them down.
T.J.:Chris, where is God working in your life now?
Chris:In that space, in the space of people who at one time found faith to be an important part of their lives, but they let's say someone experienced loss and and the church, didn't help them with the with the healing process. That's what the church needs to do, and that's what I want our church to do. Another place where where God's working in my life is in issues of of, finding ways to help help create justice for people. We we tend to be so, have such favoritism for people who are like us that sometimes, even in the church, we don't notice people who are on the margins of our society or who are being oppressed in some way. I've even heard some people downplay the oppression that people have gone through, in sort of an attempt to to, assuage their own, consciences.
Chris:But the church really needs to take a a hard look at that, and I I know that sometimes people hear that kind of that kind of speaking as being political. But in, in all honesty, I mean, the word politics means that it's about people. And if if the church isn't doing something to help people, then we've missed the boat. You know? We we then we need to be more political if that's what that means because, you know, people are what we're about.
Chris:We're we love God, and and we serve God, and we love God's people, and we serve God's people.
T.J.:Chris, if you encountered somebody, says, I I don't see God, don't understand God. And definitely in the midst of 2021, I'm not real sure about the existence of God. What would you share and point to where God is working in the world today?
Chris:I think the first thing I would share, even before I got to that point, is just to, just to say, I know what you're feeling, and I have been where you are. And, I have I have some of the same questions you do. God is mysterious, and I would like to think that God has my sense of what justice is and would do things the way that I would like it to be done, but it doesn't happen that way. And then I think I would just I think I would just talk about places where I've seen God work in my life. Mhmm.
Chris:Relationships that I have seen restored. Stories of my own or others' redemption from mistakes or, other trouble. Because I feel like that, you know, we we could preach, you know, well, of course, God's here. It's not God's fault that you can't see God, and that that people relate to to other people's stories. And most of us, if not all of us, have stories where we felt like we had been either abandoned or, or at least maybe ignored a little bit by god when we wanted something to happen.
Chris:A lot of us have stories of suffering that we have been through or where we've lost people important in our lives, where we think that justice dictates that it should turn out a different way. How did I get through that? How did I think about that? How did I come to a place of faith through that? And it's the many reassurances that I have through the community.
Chris:It's the love that's shared, from others to me. It's moments when I know that I'm at my lowest when somebody from my congregation will call me and say, you know, god just told me that I need to call you and say, we really love you and thank you for all that you're doing. I know that they couldn't have known how I was feeling, and yet somehow the spirit is moving in that way. That's not proof, but it's it's assurance to me.
T.J.:Mhmm. What ideas, what dreams do you have for this church, the church universal and the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
Chris:I I dream of and now this is a big one. Okay? I dream of a fully united church where, people can accept one another on the basis of their own faith rather than trying to make them fit into boxes of other people's faith. I I'm I don't know how to say this. I guess I'm disheartened by the number of different denominations that we have that that have such sort of minutiae that that keep them divided from one another.
Chris:I'm really brokenhearted that the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America were unable to reunite because and I know that there there have been people asking the question, why should we? Why should we? My only answer to that is we should because we are meant to be 1. And I don't just mean, the those two denominations, but the Christian church. I mean, Jesus says in the gospel of John, make make these believers 1 as you and I are 1 to to, the first person of the trinity, and yet we're so divided.
Chris:So my big dream for the church, you know, the the the big one is some, I know it won't happen probably in a way of reunification, but at least, mutual, respect and understanding and love care. My dream for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church is that we will we will look at the things that, are really important. And I I know that everybody, when they read scripture, reads it through a lens. I I hope that most of your readers have heard heard that type language before. But everybody reads it with their own, biases, and they're they're bringing themselves to it.
Chris:Let's just put it that way. And I think that, that really changes the way that you can read scripture. So you can read it to be a very rule oriented, judgmental type of scripture, or you can read it to be a great love story where God is working from the beginning of time to open up the doors to more and more people so that they will know that they are loved and accepted by God. That is how I choose to read scripture. That's what I see in the gospels when Jesus starts with a small group of these people from his same area.
Chris:And then the next thing you know, he's, you know, talking to a Samaritan woman. The next thing you know, there are, there are these Greeks that come up to him, and he has these conversations with them. And then the next thing you know, after the resurrection, the the just the the apostles are going out into all the world, and they're saying, it doesn't matter where you've been, who you've been. If you believe in Jesus, that's enough for us. And that's really that's my dream for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, maybe to set aside some of the, religiosity and turn to a theology of love.
T.J.:How can we continue to follow you on your faith journey, Chris?
Chris:Well, I've we've got our website here at the church, and every week, it has access to the sermon that I've preached that week. So
T.J.:what is the website?
Chris:It is, www.burfreesburrowcpc.org. And, I'd love for you to check out some of those, the the full worship. So we're still doing in person and online worship. And I know a lot of people have have done, Facebook live on theirs. We're still doing a prerecorded semi produced worship service.
Chris:It's about 35 minutes each week that's online. And then, I also, I I have a blog on blogger.com. It's my, monicker there is pastor where I am. That's the title of the the album that I, recorded several years ago, Where I Am. And, it's also just kind of a nod to the fact that, hey.
Chris:Every week, I'm gonna write something about where I am this week, and next week, it might be different. But people can follow that blog and, and
T.J.:that would be That's not necessarily physical travels, but that is more, theological and maybe Yes. Mental.
Chris:It is. Yeah. It's definitely every week is a sometimes more, sometimes less theological, musing, I guess, I would say. It's I mean, they're clearly just what I'm thinking, but some people seem to find, you know, some comfort or strength in those things, and and I I offer it in that way. Okay.
T.J.:And it was called again?
Chris:It's, it's on the blogger.com, and my, name is pastor where I
T.J.:am. Alright. Are you working on on any music, new another novel?
Chris:I I started another novel for a while, and I I put it down. I I don't know. I guess I just got kinda overwhelmed. But I am working on some new music. I'm working on some worship music right now.
Chris:I, I'm hopeful that, as the church comes into whatever it's about to become, which, I am not the first person to do this, but I I do feel like there is, some type of of renewal of the church that's coming soon. I I am I think we're gonna need some new music to reflect that type of renewal and, so I'm writing some music to try to be, more communitarian. I don't know if that's a real word, but to bring more of the idea of community. Yes. And yeah.
Chris:There you go. I've pointed. Bring more of the community into our worship music rather than just the individual, aspect of, you know, my love for God and my personal salvation. But, how the community is involved in that. That's that's really what I'm working toward right now.
T.J.:Alright. So look forward to communitarian music
Chris:Communitarian. From Chris Moore.
T.J.:Chris, thank you so much for sharing your faith journey and your insight.
Chris:It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me. I I consider it quite an honor to be invited.
T.J.:And thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with me on the next journey down Cumberland Road. Like a mother's perfect love Like a father's gracious love for her children, she hardens all their faults and forgives Like a mother's perfect love for her children, she sacrifice her life
