Courtney Krueger - Burn Out Long Before I Rust Out
You are listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. This episode's faith conversation is with reverend doctor Courtney Krueger, a minister at the Chattanooga First Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Raised Baptist, attended a Baptist College, a United Methodist Seminary, and a Presbyterian Seminary for his doctorate, Courtney has a unique ecumenical aura and a perspective that informs his ministry. Courtney comes to this conversation with energy and passion, and I imagine that this is his approach to all things, and it makes for great dialogue. So sit back and enjoy this journey of Cumberland Road with Courtney Kruger.
T.J.:You are involved in a racing sport called ride and tie. What is ride and tie?
Courtney:So ride and tie is the only sport in the world that I know of that the team is 2 human beings and 1 horse. There's sports that have 1 horse and 1 person or 2 people or whatever, but 2 people and a horse. And it is a race. It's usually a fairly long race anywhere from 25 to a 100 miles. I've never done a 100 mile race.
Courtney:50 is the most I've done. I've only done a couple of those. And, the way it works is and it it's usually in the woods or or some kind of a marked course in in wilderness. It's not a not a street race. The the race starts, and you got one team member on the horse and one team member on foot.
Courtney:And the the the race starts, we kinda tease and say the cavalry goes first and the infantry follows as the horses are a lot faster, of course, than people. And so they they head on out and and the rider will go about a mile down the course and then tie the horse to the tree. And meanwhile, the runner is somewhere back behind and coming along. And when the runner catches up to the horse, he'll he or she'll untie the horse and and take off and then go catch the rider. And then we usually flop down to or switch down to about half a mile And so you're running for half a mile and either finding the horse and untying the horse and then and riding.
Courtney:And usually if if you get in a pretty good pattern, by the time you catch your runner, they've gone about a half a mile, and then you just switch right there together. And then then they go again and tie the horse. And I started the sport about 12 years ago. I was a mountain biker and my wife and my daughter were riding horses. And my daughter found out about riding tires.
Courtney:She was 14 at the time. And she came to me and said, dad, if you'll learn how to ride a horse I'll start running and we can be a team. Now your 14 year old daughter says, I wanna be on a team with you. There's only one answer. And that is, I'm in.
Courtney:So I have not ridden a mountain bike much since then. I know a lot of running, a lot of horse riding since then. She went off to college and she hasn't been a partner much over the last few years, but I've kept going. And because it's a small sport and I make sure to say because it's a small sport, This year, I became had my 7th national points championship. I've had 6 man man team national points and 1 man woman team national points championships.
Courtney:And and that is the it's kinda like stock car racing. You get points for how many races you complete, how many miles you go, how many how many teams you come in and head up, that kind of thing. And so I'm a 7 time national champion. I like to brag about that a little bit. But, again, it's because the sport's so small that the competition's not quite like NASCAR or something else.
Courtney:So that's that's where I'm done in a nutshell.
T.J.:Well, that sounds pretty exciting. Do the competitions happen all over the United States? Are they more local to you?
Courtney:They do. They they started in California. Levi Strauss company invented the sport in, 52 years ago. And, it spread to the east about 25 or so years ago and just exploded in the east, and it's actually bigger right now in the east than it is in the west. But it's it's mostly on the coast, but but some in the in the middle as well.
T.J.:Well, that sounds pretty niche, yet it puts you in a place to where you are able to meet all different kinds of people. So being a minister that you are, Courtney, does that provide you opportunities to say, hey, not only do I ride horses, but or and I'm also a minister.
Courtney:Absolutely. And and the wonderful thing about our sport is because you're transporting horses to these venues, you can't just come in and out a few hours. You come in the night before and and you race the next day. A lot of times you spend the next night. You can't also just throw a horse in a trailer and drive for hours an hour.
Courtney:It's just kinda tough trailer on them. It's tough on them. Mhmm. And so I'm I have just lifelong friends in this in this sport and, and have had so many opportunities to to be a minister to them. And really my primary form of evangelism is ride and tie because a lot of folk in the horse world are not.
Courtney:They're unchurched at the very best, and maybe not even Christian at all. And it's given me wonderful opportunities for that. And then it's also the one of the ways that that I take care of myself. And one of the way it it provides me with spiritual nourishment as well.
T.J.:Well, in what way? Because, when we were talking off mic, we were talking about, I don't wanna call it a hobby because it's not the word that you use, but it's sort of a splitting of yourselves. There's more dynamics to Courtney than just being a minister. So talk more about that.
Courtney:Yeah. Well, right in time, because it came out of my family, my daughter, my wife doesn't compete. We've done one Ryan and I together. She doesn't really compete, but she is my my coach because she knows a whole lot more about horses than I ever will. She's the crew chief.
Courtney:And and when you come in, you do these loops. And you come in and a bet checks the horse. She's she's handling all that stuff. And so it's a family affair. My primary partner, the one I've won, the 6 man man titles with is my my, brother-in-law.
Courtney:And so when I'm doing almost anything with family, it also is riding type horse related. And then when I'm doing any kind of recreation stuff, whether it's going out running so that my body is ready to run or whether it's riding so my body is ready to ride, I'm doing it, with, you know, I mean, it's just such a huge part of my life. And I'm a such a high energy person that that it's kinda what I have to the the way that I relax is to go out and kinda destroy my body. So much of my my work is in my head, my in my heart, I guess. So so I go and take tear off my body as as a way of relaxation.
T.J.:Yeah. It sounds counterintuitive, but, you know, when you we get into a hobby or sport, part of it is that you can really throw yourself into it, where you can't think of anything else but that particular sport and that particular hobby. Courtney, before we leave Ride and Tie, I have one more question pertaining to how serious do people take the sport Or is it more laid back among the competitors?
Courtney:So that's a great question. It's a great because we when we are on the course, we are absolute cutthroat competitors. And we are we are I mean, it it is it is, you know, win it or or die trying. And and yet as soon as the race is over, but and it's because it's such a small sport. Most people know everybody else.
Courtney:Then we all just have a great time, shake hands with the winner, and congratulate them and you move on to the next time. But but we can we can tell a race happened 10 years ago. We'll still be going over. Yeah. I had you until that one thing happened.
Courtney:And that got the answer. Absolutely. It's also the case that you're it's not the safest sport in the world. And we've had it with there was one race where a guy got tossed into a tree and his head was bleeding. And it was actually an East Coast championship, a regional championship.
Courtney:And we just kind of everybody just stopped and made sure he was okay. And the horse was missing and couple of went up in search of the horse thing. I think we're we're not so cutthroat that we we don't recognize in the middle of the race we need to to quit. But but it it's incredibly competitive, when we're out there, within certain limits.
T.J.:So having all kinds of wonderful people from different walks of life. Courtney, could you give just some examples of of some of the faith conversations that you had when you're not competing and, you know, you're around the water cooler or the campfire or around the horse trailer leaning up against a pickup truck. What would be some of the more memorable conversations about God, about Christianity, about faith that you can recall that you don't mind sharing?
Courtney:Sure. One I think of is is is one of a a fellow who's fairly new to the sport. Keeps saying to me, you're just not like what I thought a pastor would be. Right? And I think he means that
T.J.:in a good way. Right.
Courtney:And and and that's I want that. Not I want them to know I'm just another ordinary person.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Courtney:I think that's important to be approachable or or whatever. I've had numbers of opportunities when things are not going right for people to to do offer pastoral care. Mhmm. I've done actually one led one funeral for a person, who was involved or actually a husband or person who was involved. And then I remember sitting around at a camp one time, you come up with with a couple that have a Catholic background and have had some big disappointments with the Catholic church.
Courtney:And they were telling me about a podcast that they had listened to, that was about the Catholic, some of the horrible abuses in the Catholic church. And they were kind of equating that to the whole church and or at least particularly the Catholic church. And just gave me the opportunity to say, you know, as CS Lewis said, some of the best, arguments for Christianity are Christians and then some of the worst arguments, Christianity are Christians.
T.J.:And Right. Right.
Courtney:And kinda to to kinda try to help them maybe get a little wider perspective on on that.
T.J.:Yeah. And being able I
Courtney:don't know that I did, but but but I'm not.
T.J.:And being able to separate faith in God through Jesus Christ and the institution as a church
Courtney:Yes. Indeed.
T.J.:May we blend those together so often, I think in house, within the community of faith, but also I think outside the community of faith where we mix the institution and the individuals within the institution in with the faith. And we're not always able to to separate and delineate when it's necessary. My relationship with a local congregation is along with my relationship with God. It's not one and the same. I think it even becomes more difficult when you're in, a leadership role in ministry to delineate between the 2.
T.J.:Sounds like you have a faith a healthy oh, I don't wanna call it a divide, but a diversity between, you know, Courtney who is in ministry, and then there's Courtney who's the family man and then who has hobbies and sports that he's involved in.
Courtney:Hope. And I I really hope that the Courtney and the pulpit is not all that different from the Courtney at home and the Courtney out riding a horse. Right. In terms of, you know, because otherwise then there's a there's an artificiality there. And I think that from the church, the world so much needs authenticity.
Courtney:So I hope that that's true. Now my kids tell me when I preach that I put on my preaching voice. I know it's a little bit, But hopefully, I'm not saying anything that I don't believe or, you know, whatever. Any
T.J.:Right. And and I'm speaking more in the context of, I've said this before, you know, the the most wonderful people I have ever met, have been in church and probably the most difficult people I have ever met have also been in the church and delineating between the 2 that sometimes, we will catch one another or cross paths with one another when they're at their worst moment. And then and then there are other occasions when we cross paths and and we we find the most, you know, loving, endearing, compassionate, individuals on the planet. Yeah. But being able to distinguish that, oh, okay.
T.J.:When, TJ is an awful person, that's not a reflection upon the entire Christian faith of all of Christiandom, you know, that, I'm not always going to be nor am I, the best representative of of the Christian faith. Yeah. Yeah. It's not for lack of effort, but I I I fail at it.
Courtney:No. Indeed. And and and and I I there I'm also on the National Ride and Tide Board of Directors, and there's all kind of drama that that kinda can happen in there. It's not unlike us. It's what happens at some session meetings or whatever.
Courtney:And, and and there have been times when I have have my not my best side has has shown, and I've had to come back to people and say, you know, I'm really sorry. Well, I I wasn't trying to to to, you know, present myself quite that way. And it's concerned me because I worried that I was presenting maybe this is a pastor and this pastor can't get along with this person and it's
T.J.:Well, but I I think that happens. I think that comes with being human. What's hard is is going back and going, okay. That wasn't a good representation of of of me nor my faith. Just want to apologize.
T.J.:And if I can make things right, I can. I'll try.
Courtney:Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Courtney, you weren't born a minister, so let let's take a few steps back into time and, begin with some of the early days. Let's talk about your your upbringing and and your family.
Courtney:Sure. Well, I, was born to a Baptist mother and a Catholic father. Although my my father grew up as a pretty nominal Catholic. He was he he died back in 2015. My mom's still around, but but he died, just before I came to to to Chattanooga.
Courtney:And but he he was an identical twin. And so he's in church a lot because at weddings and funerals because the Catholic church the the a lot of people like having perfect little book in altar boys. But other than that, he didn't do a lot with church. And when he married my mom, he would not he wasn't interested in having his marriage blessed or whatever had happened. I don't know that he was fully excommunicated, but I don't think he was supposed to take communion anymore.
Courtney:And that didn't help his his, church attendance or anything. So in my youngest years, what I remember is mom always took me and I have 2 younger sisters. We went to church and dad usually headed out of the golf course. And then when, I was, I don't know, 10 or 11, dad was a small business person. He was afraid he's gonna lose the business, and he got down on his hands and knees and said to god, if you will get me through this and save my house and my my family and whatnot, I will do better.
Courtney:I'll go to church and whatnot. And unlike so many people who make that bargain with God and then things turn around, they kinda forget about it, he didn't. And and and he didn't have a sack of money fall out of heaven into his hands, but he did survive and and he recognized that that didn't have to happen.
T.J.:Now were you involved. No. Let me interrupt you. Now were you aware, back when you were a kid of of his, plea to God?
Courtney:Yes. And it was one of those things where mom and dad tried to hide from us the financial problems, but you it's just really it's where I learned. And and as a pastor, it's good to know that kids are not stupid. Kids know when they're stressed in the house. They may not know exactly why, but they know.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Courtney:And and that's gonna have a that's gonna play in in a minute too, a little later of to my call. But dad got then involved in the Baptist church, and before he died, was a deacon in the Baptist church Mhmm. As still is my mother. And the church that they were in as a church in in in, I was born in 67 in Charleston, South Carolina, but moved in 69 to Rock Hill, South Carolina. Mom is still in the church.
Courtney:She joined in 69 and still a leader in that church.
T.J.:Wow.
Courtney:So that's my my home kinda rock church in that sense. So then moving all forward to to my call, as a child, I I knew how tough financially it had been for dad. And, I'll just say this. I I I can talk about it forever, but but I don't think it's that. But dad actually ended up spending a year in prison as well, after that.
Courtney:He had a a a interesting life. And that that caused a lot of financial difficulties in the family as you might imagine.
T.J.:Oh, yeah.
Courtney:And, so I would I did not want to have to live a life of financial uncertainty, and I was a pretty bright kid. And so when people ask me, what do you wanna do when you grow up? I would say, I wanna be a doctor because I knew doctors had money. I would and if they asked me, I was smart enough to say, well, because I wanna help people, but that wasn't it all. It was that I had gotten scared to death seeing my parents go through what they went through, and I didn't wanna have that happen to me.
T.J.:Yeah.
Courtney:And as a probably 14, 15, 16 year old, fairly young young man, I started sensing God calling me to ministry. And I'm like, no way. You know, pastors don't have money. Pastors don't have financial security.
T.J.:You can
Courtney:forget it. This is not what I'm doing. Right.
T.J.:And you even knew that as a as a young man, as a teenager?
Courtney:Oh, yes. Yes. I mean, because I knew I knew when I told people I wanna be a doctor, I didn't wanna help people. I just didn't wanna be as afraid as I had been when I was, you know, younger. Mhmm.
Courtney:And, I kept and and and I was I guess I was pretty self aware because I also said, oh, this is just your guilt talking because you know that you don't wanna help people. You just want yeah. And I also was doing a lot of entering sweepstakes at that time. Maybe I'm become independently wealthy before. And so I always had to be careful to say, this is the end of a long process.
Courtney:This is not my call. This is this is the final surrender to the call. But honest to god, I go out to the mailbox one day. Oh, and I happen to be the one at the mailbox. They open the mail, and there is from Ed McMahon.
Courtney:You may have won, you know, $10,000,000, and it is addressed to reverend Courtney Krueger. I'm 15, 16 years old. And I stood there at the mailbox and looked up and said, alright. You win. I mean, you know, okay.
Courtney:I know you're not gonna leave me alone. Now you're sending me junk mail. You know?
T.J.:You really received an actual message indicating, well, your future, I guess.
Courtney:I did. And then and then I and I think it's it's a that's part of God's sense of humor. Okay. Okay. You wanna be wealthy.
Courtney:Here's the deal. You haven't just won $10,000,000, but I still have a claim on your life, and I've and and I've got a different direction I want you to go now.
T.J.:So in that moment, looking back, I mean, is that a feeling of of relief, guilt, or a punch in the stomach?
Courtney:None of the above. It it was actually it was humor because I already had in some ways, I already surrendered. I already knew that I had to make this decision. I already and and I wasn't and I was even past the point of dreading it, I think. I I I knew this is this is where my life is headed.
Courtney:This is where God wants for me. And and even to this day, so often when I sense God convicting me and correcting me, it's with a sense of humor. You know? Courtney, you're better than this. Come on.
Courtney:Let's get get on with the program. And and I'm like, I know. I know. I know. And and, you know, even even though I'm calling you something something hard, you know, to go and ask for forgiveness or whatever you need to do, you know, to make amends with this person or whatever.
Courtney:I know. I know. I know. And and god just kinda tickles my funny bone almost in that sense. And I and, you know, it's not a laughing matter, but it is because it's just God saying, you've known this all along and you're making me go these extreme measures.
T.J.:Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That real, kind of the knock on top of the head.
Courtney:So let me let me as long as we're god's like you're gonna do the mail twice, but but the second time was was my call to First Chattanooga.
T.J.:So I'm
Courtney:a Baptist minister, and, I've been in the same church now for, like, 19 years. I'm trying to discern, is it time to just kinda re up here and retire this church? Because I am a huge believer in long pastorate. I mean, I was thankful I had been there that long. Or do I need is there another church out there that I need to, give the rest of my career to and and do another, you know, 18, 19, whatever year, stint.
Courtney:And I saw and I've got this this call to to or this not call, but this potential call to, Chattanooga. And and the committee has said, we really think you're our guy. We really think that you're the one God's calling us to. But but you've gotta tell us, you know, that you're our that that God's calling you as well. Well, let
T.J.:me let me interrupt you for just a minute. Yeah. If you could take a few moments to talk about how the how you and the congregation first became aware of one another. Okay.
Courtney:Yeah. Super question. So First Chattanooga is in a weird position because we're a church with a lot of moving parts. We've got Olympic swimming pool and a and a 300 or whatever enrollment in our in our summer camp. And we've got a day, a learning center, a daycare and multi staffing.
Courtney:I think it's it's a little hard for 1st Cumberland to be a 1st Chattanooga to be in a there's not a great feeder system through the Cumberland denomination because so many of our churches are smaller churches and don't have and so the the church has learned over the years that that they need somebody that that maybe has different experience than a lot of Cumberland pastors have. And so they've had to go outside of the denomination lots, more often than not. And they advertised in a Baptist periodical. And I saw it and I waited right to the deadline and then I applied. And this is one of those another kind of funny thing.
Courtney:Don't ever tell God what you're not gonna do. My wife said, you're not gonna become president here and you're wasting your time and their time. This is ridiculous. And I said, I know. You're probably right.
Courtney:Whatever. But and then we go through the process and it starting to feel like maybe it is. And one of the first questions the committee asked me was like, well, how did you hear about us? And well, you're a Baptist. And I said, well, you advertised in a Baptist periodical.
Courtney:Did you think Presbyterians are gonna be reading that? And so that began that conversation and and whatnot. And so now I'm at this. And every time I've made a big move, whether it was what scenario I'm gonna go to, my first call, my second call, and this call, big life transitions. I just put myself through all kinda angst.
Courtney:And I had talked with several other churches, along the way and some had been interested in some had not, you know, how the all that process goes. And first, Chattanooga really is. And they're they're really waiting for me to say, are you ready to take another step or not? And and and the thing that was really holding me back was first Chattanooga was a lot more urban than the church I've been before, and and I'm an outdoors kinda guy. We've already started there.
T.J.:Yeah.
Courtney:And I'm not sure my soul can survive an urban environment. And and I'm it might not be good for me. It might be good for the church. And I'm really that's my main pullback. And once again, I kinda know God's called me here, and I'm I'm all I really almost already committed, but I just haven't been ready to just completely say yes.
Courtney:Certainly not to pick up the phone and call the committee chair. And, one day I get the the outside magazine in the mail, and the front cover is something about Mount Everest. I've always been interested in Mount Everest. And so this is great. I'm gonna go on the back porch and just go to Mount Everest for a while.
Courtney:I'm not worried gonna worry about my career and and and my call and any of that stuff. Only time I've ever known outside management to have an inside cover also. But I opened it up out there on the porch. And the inside cover is the top 10 outdoor cities in America and the winner is Chattanooga. And there's a picture of the bridge going across the Tennessee River in Chattanooga on the inside cover of Outside Magazine.
Courtney:And once again, God is saying, don't you see I've got this? The number one outside city in America is the one I'm calling you to. Would you stop being so concerned about stuff?
T.J.:Let's talk for a few minutes about, I think this would be very helpful for listeners both who are members of the congregation, but also for ministers as well. If you don't mind just sort of sharing the long pastorate and then maybe kind of living in that that time of, well, am I supposed to remain here? Is it time to move on? And the questions that may be in your head and the conversations that you have with your family, all those pros and cons and being open to the spirit. What was that process like for you and what advice may you have both for a congregation, but also for a minister as well as they are discerning what the next call or the next ministry may be for them.
Courtney:It is so hard, at least for me, to figure out where is God's call and where is my desire and and and you try to do all the pluses and minuses and and, you know, for your family and everything else. And Mhmm. And and that is just such an agonizing thing. And it's it in that particular instance, it was particularly tough because I wasn't feeling the need to have to go anywhere. What I really was doing was I was approaching 50, and I kind of saw that as a 50 years old.
Courtney:And I kind of saw that as on the other side of 50, I may not be quite as attractive to churches whether I am or not. And actually, I mentioned that to some of my friends. I made the mistake of using that word attractive and they still tease me. You know, you're not as attractive as you were when we first met you because you're past 50, I But I kind of said I need to decide. I think that was artificial.
Courtney:I don't know that God was maybe God was in it or not. I don't know. But I've got to decide by the time I'm 50, whether I'm staying here or I'm going someplace else. And, yeah, looking back, that's pretty foolish, but maybe not because it's what got me to 1st Chattanooga. And I and I I went through coach training school, and I had a coach that that was wasn't a triad.
Courtney:I coached 1 person, and and the person coached me, and they coached, you know, and they and I kept just agonizing her this. I don't know if I'll just stay on to go. And she finally said to me one day, I think she kinda got tired and it's not even a good coaching question, but she said, you're you're trying to decide between a church you know and just some phantom church out there. And she said, I don't think you're ever gonna know until you dip your toe in the water, and you've gotta just send a resume out there and see and then see if a call arises or not. And that was brilliant, advice.
Courtney:I don't think it's good advice for pastors to constantly have their toe in the water. At least it wouldn't be for me. Maybe for some, but but but particularly because I really think long pastors are important for churches and for pastors. You know, I I don't I'm not looking for another church, you know, right now. That had to be pretty extreme situation or God had to really grab me by the collar and shake me.
Courtney:But but but once I did, then, you know, that's that's where I finally got here. But it was with an awful lot of praying, an awful lot of angst, and and I had to have that experience where I felt like God was saying, I'm sending you to Chattanooga. And it took the magazine, but but but that's working.
T.J.:Yeah. It took the mail. Yeah. Well, let me let me try the question again. Thank you.
T.J.:You answered it. But you made me think of something else. I wanna try the question again. Discernment in this is more from the minister perspective. Discerning our gifts and our ministry and the outpouring of ourselves as we know what our gifts and limitations are, how healthy is it for us to examine those regularly and make sure that they were responding to the call to ministry, but also that we we are giving what is needed to the community that we've been called to serve.
T.J.:That is something I think that we need to, visit regularly Mhmm. And discern regularly. What what has been your experience, especially in a long pastorate? Is that something that you review multiple long pasturates, Is that something that you review yearly, every 6 months, every 5 years? How does that work for Courtney?
Courtney:I am so high energy and that that I'm always kind of doing that. I mean, it's it's I I I I some and and I I'd be interested to have you all do this interview a session too or session member. I kinda feel like peep you can't argue with how much time and passion I put into my job. But you might argue and and and justifiably so about where I'm putting that time and passion. But but, I mean, I'm and it's not exactly what you're asking, but it kind of is.
Courtney:I I'm gonna burn out long before I rust out.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Courtney:And so I'm not gonna get so complacent that I I'm I'm always looking for for more ways and different ways and better ways to to do what I'm doing and and for our church to do what we're doing. And so I don't you know, in some ways, I almost that may that may be my Achilles' heel is is I ought to stick with something maybe a little longer than than, okay, let's try something new. Let's move on to the next thing. And I did have a church leader in a in a in a my previous church say, sometimes I'm afraid that you are a torpedo in search of a target and you get towards the target and then you shift and all of a sudden the church is like, woah, wait a minute. We thought we were going this way.
Courtney:So I don't know if I'm answering your question but but
T.J.:Okay. Well, no. That's helpful because I I think that type of personality is is needed within the church, maybe not for everybody to have it, but for for more because I would think it would be easier to shed away, hey, this is not working or we tried it. Let's go let's move on to the next thing. It's easy to shift when it's just you and I, that, and being able to go, you know, you've worked it out in your head and maybe you've never even spoken out loud, but he was like, not you're not moving to the next greatest thing, but you was like, okay.
T.J.:This may work better, or Mhmm. No. This didn't work at all. What is your advice for for leadership in terms of shifting those gears? Because maybe you've already made the decision and it's all worked out in your head, and this will be the next mission.
T.J.:This will be the next ministry. And in that process, we're gonna let go of these 2 or 3 things. Not everybody's always on board. They're not quite at the same place of arrival that you're at. How do you how do you encourage people to be at that level and to arrive at the spot that you're at or capture the vision?
T.J.:Maybe arriving is the wrong phrase. But how do you get people to capture the vision that you have for something that hasn't even been initiated yet?
Courtney:Yeah. I I'm a in I'm not a how to put this? I'm a very collegial kind of leader, both with church staffs and and with others. Mhmm. And I'm not I'm not the I'm not really coming as a here's the direction we're going and and everybody get on board and and, you know, get on the bus or not.
Courtney:I'm a very big picture person, and so I'll bring the big picture and then and I've I've learned I've got to have then the people that the detailed people to help implement it. And sometimes it is right out of the gate. They're like, this big picture ain't gonna work. You know, you there are you couldn't string enough details together. And and I've learned usually, you know, the people that I trust when they when they say that in one way or another, that that that's probably not them being sticks in the mud and and and just not wanting to change.
Courtney:But but but, you know, but not but but but helping me, helping the church not go to some direction, that's not gonna be good. Mhmm. I am though so energetic and and I think so encouraging. It's one of the things my wife says that that that I mean, I I gosh. I hate to say this because I don't wanna it sounds she says it's like but she says, yes.
Courtney:So often people want to follow you because what you're showing is is, you know, this vision that that they wanna follow. And I and I don't get it all the time by any stretch, but but and then there are some things that I have have had I've held on to pray a long, long time. When I was in in the Baptist church for 19 years, the very first meeting of leadership, I I raised the issue of of baptism. Do we have to baptize people who are baptized as infants, people who are not baptized by immersion? Can we say we honor their baptism?
Courtney:If they if they value their baptism, can we and it kinda got shot down that meeting and I kept setting up trial balloon for 19 years. And the last thing that happened as I went out the door was they finally agreed to the exactly the same policy that I had asked for 19 years before, which was if you find me in your baptism, we do too and you're welcome here. And that was a long I mean, it didn't matter how much enthusiasm or or energy or or whatever I hit. It that took a long time. And and it it wasn't that I had a 19 year plan.
Courtney:It just took just but it just it never would let go. I couldn't let go of it, and so I just kept plugging away.
T.J.:Well, maybe they were waiting for your departure. I was like, okay. Now now it can't possibly have Courtney's name on it. So
Courtney:There you go. That's right. That's right. He's not getting there.
T.J.:Let's talk about the transition, moving from one denomination to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and talk about some of the things that were attractive to you, from a theological and an ecclesiastical point of view and maybe what some of the differences was, some of the things he had to grow into, and and maybe even your first impressions of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Courtney:So first, I'll have to quote Cliff Hudson, whom so many people know. I just love it. I steal this from all the time. And he says, I wasn't born Cumberland, but I got here as fast as I could. And I I very much feel that way.
Courtney:I'm so thankful for for this denomination. And it was an easy transition for me for for two reasons. One is, I already mentioned, I had a Catholic father and a Baptist mother. I went to a Baptist college, and then I went to to Duke for seminary. It's a Methodist seminary.
Courtney:Excuse me. Then I went to, Columbia Theological Seminary for my work, which was Presbyterian. I'm stealing this from another friend, but I'm I'm really an echomania. I just think that the church universal. I mean, I believe in the holy Catholic church.
Courtney:And and I have I have always had friends and colleagues, in other churches. And the town I was in before was a small town, and I'm the one that started the the, Alliance Churches in that town that's still going on, because that's just so powerful and important to me. So in that sense, it was easy. Also it was easy because the kind of Baptist I was was very similar to the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination and that was I was a a cooperative Baptist Fellowship Baptist. And and the way that I describe it, the the the common president denomination to I'm back Baptist friends or I guess even to my Presbyterian friends is, the the common president denomination is to the Presbyterian world kind of the way the CBF is to the Baptist world.
Courtney:In that, you have the Southern Baptist Convention that is is way, way right now. They weren't always, but now. And you've got another group called the Alliance of Baptist. It's kind of the left wing, and then the CBF kinda fits in the middle. And they particularly do in 2 ways.
Courtney:They are fiercely, in support of women in ministry, but many of the other social, issues and whatnot, they try to leave room for people to have make up their own minds and churches to make up their own minds and that kind of thing. And and that has typically been we have been our middle theology, that kind of thing. We've been in, the the the Cumberlands. And as I say with Cumberlands, it's kinda like we're between the PCA and PCUSA kind of, and and we can decide where on that continuum we might fit. But but, I like that.
Courtney:I like the middle theology, but but it's it's incredibly important to me. It's it's an essential that the women in ministry be at the piece that has to be, there for me. And that's all the the churches the Baptist church I've served have have been that way, and that's not typical of a lot of Baptist churches, but is of those. And so so that's I guess I'll stop and let you tell me if you what more you wanna know, but but No.
T.J.:That's that's fine. So women in ministry and then apparently, baptism as well because you were advocating for recognizing baptisms from other places and other Yeah. Congregations and and denominations.
Courtney:So you said something about theology and ecclesiology, whatever. The the church government, it it was the biggest difference for me, because in the Baptist church, they're they're more of a pure democracy and and we are a more representative democracy. And I have discovered, thus far, that the the superiority of our system now I know you can get a a session that that can wreak havoc, and I know they have in in some churches just like you can get a pastor. So I'm not I'm not just passing the session Yeah. Or or whatever.
Courtney:But my experience at First Cumberland has been we have had to make difficult decisions as a session. If it's 8 or 12 people in a room trying to discern God's will for the church, it is so much easier for everybody to be heard. It is so much easier to actually make that decision than when it's a 100 people screaming each other. And I have I have experienced that in in the Baptist church. Now the Baptist system is great too.
Courtney:Everybody has buy in, all that kind of stuff. But particularly pretty early in my ministry here, Matter of fact, I had my ordination yet even been acknowledged or I was still going through the Paul's program. And so had another pastor, Jen Newell was moderating our session. We had couple that were a long time, same sex couple that started visiting the church. And I talked with them and they were very clear with me.
Courtney:They would like to join, but they said we're not gonna join if it's gonna cause a problem. We just one of them had a connection to the church and they said this is the church we think we would like to a part of, but but, you know, we don't, you know, but but we really don't wanna cause a problem. And so I took that to the session, and Jim was like, you are. You know, I know we have to do this because I did not want them to come down on a Sunday morning and me explain before the whole session cause we we actually convene the session on the Sunday morning when somebody joins and right there in front of the church, they vote on everybody. I'm assuming that would be fair, session of wondering these 2 men are coming down here.
Courtney:What is this? What's going on? Mhmm. And and so and Jim agreed, but she said, this is so early in your, you know, you may be out of a job before you even get started. And, and and that was the most amazing leadership meeting I've ever been in.
Courtney:Because of the the I think we had 12 elders then, but we we now have 8. But but of the 12 elders, there were 12 different opinions, and they all were on kind of a continuum. And it wasn't a, it wasn't a binary kind of thing. And some of them were, I think, that that, that this is living in sin and and we can't have this and some were, well, I think we're all sinners and some were, well, I I don't have a problem with it. Theologically, I'm okay with it.
Courtney:And we really spent spun the the, the the, continuum there. And and the the elder that was really the the most concerned about it, and and said, I just can't I I'm I'm worried that's gonna condone Santa. I really can't I could I could not vote for them to be a part of our church, but she said, but I'm sensing that that's not really the way the rest of the session feels. And so if you can just tell me the Sunday they're gonna join, if they choose to join, I just won't come because I also don't want to to to to even abstain from voting. But but I but I I could be okay with that because I trust the rest of you.
Courtney:And so, I was actually in the car on Saturday coming back from a ride and tie, and and one of the guys called me and said, could we join tomorrow? And I said, sure. And I'd already let him know the session had told had said that they would, allow them to join. Mhmm. And so so, the the chair of the I mean, not the the clerk of the session and I divided the session.
Courtney:I'm so we're gonna call all session and let them know this is coming tomorrow. And And I can't remember. It's funny. I can't remember which one of us called that woman. But her response was, this is wonderful because I have friends who are in for the weekend, and now we can just have brunch together, and I don't have to get up and go to church.
Courtney:And this is just great. And that was the most graceful thing. And the way that we just came in for our church, that was the right decision. That might not be the right decision for other churches, and we may get to that later. But but for our church, that was the right decision.
Courtney:And the way we came to that decision, I felt like I walked out of that decision, just like they walked out of the the church meeting in Jerusalem where they're saying it just seemed good to the holy spirit to us that we moved this direction. And so but I that would not have happened if it was a 100 people in a room trying to decide that it's at at once. It is my whole point. Right? It's that whole story.
T.J.:Yeah. I think it's a microcosm of the the way that the community of faith can work. But as you were saying, it's how a representative form of government works where that the representation you you have a vote and then the majority of that vote goes on. And, thanks for sharing because I was wondering what that transition could look like coming from one denomination to another because it can be challenging, you know, especially if you have roots and a belief system that may differ in certain ways and in practices in one denomination from another. And, I also think it is an example of the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination in our belief system where we have so much in common with other brothers and sisters in Christ.
T.J.:And, most of the time, we seek out those commonalities to share a common mission and a common ministry. And, so I just wanted to hear from you what that experience was like, that transition of going from one denomination to another and and challenges and the difficulties and joys that come with that. If you don't mind, let's go back to your calling in the ministry as a as a young man. So you were in your teenage years. So you kinda knew in high school, or at least as a young adult, what your generally, what your career path would look like.
Courtney:Yeah. And and and I charted my educational path, you know, for that and say and and I was an anomaly. I I don't know what the the average age in seminary now is, but when I was at Duke to be 22 years old, I guess, and and be a seminary student was I was I was very much, you know, one of the youngest ones there because most people were second career folk. And and and and I think that it to be a second career minister can be incredible because you do have it. I mean, I've had no full time, you know, career job outside of being a pastor in mine in in 30 years ever, but but in in my entire career, and I can understand that.
Courtney:I will say and and and, again, I'm not I'm this is tongue in cheek, but I don't guess he felt that way. Stanley Hauerwas was one of my professors, the great Christian ethicist, And he used to say and then this is to a bunch of second rear people. I don't know why you people wanna be ministers. You're already washed out of one career. There's no way you're gonna make it in the pastorate for the ministry.
T.J.:That's funny.
Courtney:But, you know, Paul and and and Peter and and all the disciples, they they they might quibble with that as well.
T.J.:Yeah. And and I I think the measuring sticks aren't even the same sticks because Yeah.
Courtney:That's true.
T.J.:You know, if you're second or third career, you're bringing so many experiences to to the table, life experiences, interactions with other human beings, and you're bringing the skill set as well that may that may cover administration that, maybe many ministers don't have. They just don't have that experience or maybe even that gift. The same with bivocational. For many of our ministers who are bivocational, you you are bringing that experience. 1, you're you're out in the community.
T.J.:And I would even argue being bivocational, puts you in a very advantageous context and circumstances to where you're meeting people who are not faith connected at
Courtney:all. Absolutely. I mean, that's why a ride and tie for me is is that other side, whereas if I were by vocational, I would have it. And it would probably be even more advantageous if I'm I'm more in the community. That's ride and I didn't so much of a community thing, but that is where I am encountering other people outside of the church because so much of my, working life and life is in the church.
Courtney:My friends are in the church, all that kind of stuff.
T.J.:Right.
Courtney:Absolutely. And and, again, that was that was totally done in cheek. I I I I would not find this very anybody's Well career path.
T.J.:But they're not to leave full time ministry out of the loop here in this conversation, to be able to have kind of that pinpoint focus and a minimal amount of distractions to where you can focus on 1 career, 1 vocation, 1 profession, and utilize and express all your gifts and all your energy into 1. There's a benefit to that as well that, you may not get if you're in bi vocational ministry.
Courtney:Well, I am I am so thankful that that from 16, I was able to chart a course and and and do that. I am. I'm I'm glad that's the the path my life took and that's God calls all different kinds of people from all different places and walks of life, but I'm glad that that was the way God chose to to use me.
T.J.:Well, let's talk about some of the people that have impacted your your life and your faith that have encouraged your ministry, shepherded you along the way, given you different skills and perspectives that have bettered your life and bettered your interactions with others?
Courtney:Boy, you you put this question on the the sample questions, and and I could I've already talked too much. I could talk for hours. I've already mentioned my parents. Both of my parents in different ways taught me so much. My mother is 80, almost 83 now, and she is still the leader in her church in their ministry.
Courtney:They're they have a clothing ministry, a ministry center. And if if it weren't for her, I'm not sure it would continue. And she has taught me about giving your life for Christ regardless of of, you know, not getting a paycheck or anything else. My father and when you when you make a bargain with God or or or ask God, you know, for something then you better stick to it. And and his sense of integrity, Brenda stand in front of a judge and say I was guilty.
Courtney:I'm guilty. I'm not I'm not fighting this thing. It has so much made me a person I hope and I think of integrity. My wife Lee has taught me so much about generosity. And she's also taught me a lot about when 2 people don't see eye to eye, that can be okay.
Courtney:And she had to pound that into me early in our marriage in some way. But that is her faith is so incredible and her honest faith is so incredible. And and, there's there's no more dangerous critter than a person who's finished 1 semester of seminary. And we got married after my 1st semester of seminary. And so I was ready to impart to this poor unfilled vessel all that I had learned in the last 3 months and all that she didn't know about God and faith and Jesus and everything else.
Courtney:And, and she was not having it, and she taught me so much. And then I've had so many men mentors in ministry. I had a group in South Carolina of 9 ministers that we met once a week, for prayer and Bible study and just fellowship for over a decade. And they're still going on that group. And I haven't had that in this context and that has been something I've kinda lacked, but boy, that we call ourselves the companions in Christ because we started with that particular curriculum.
Courtney:And I even went to Greece with 3 of them on a kind of a pilgrimage. But really the people who impacted me in some ways the most are ordinary church members. I have a friend who's in the ministry, and he calls us ministers professional Christians, as a really as a not as a a compliment. And and the and the unprofessional Christians, the ones who come to church not because they're getting a paycheck, not because they're expected to be there, but because they love God and they wanna serve God and the ones that when the church is is in need of a leader or in need of an extra few dollars or whatever it is there is a need of, a need of somebody to help out with mission project, they're the ones that are there. Wow.
Courtney:I mean, they are the real, I mean, that that that I mean, they are my heroes because, I mean, I I I tease, you know, they only come to church because they pay me to, and that's not true. And I know it's not true because when I'm on vacation, sometimes I'm the only one of my family that goes to church, but I still am gonna go and go to church someplace. But I am it is different. And wow. Ordinary church people, ordinary members, ordinary Christians.
T.J.:Right. Yeah. They're, the lay folk are the real examples to follow in terms of discipleship. Yeah. A minister may be, more knowledgeable.
T.J.:I don't know. I'd even argue this one, but I'll finish my thought. Maybe more knowledgeable on the scriptures or maybe the day to day operations of a local church or judicatory or whatever. But the real movers and the shakers and, yeah, the earth shakers are, yeah, the the disciples, the the Christians who are there when the church door is open for fellowship, for study, for worship. There are awesome examples, to follow and to model after in terms of faith and what a Christian faith can look like.
T.J.:Yeah. At least better than me. I'm not gonna speak for you, but at least there are better examples than I am.
Courtney:No. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
T.J.:Let's talk about, your faith and where it is currently. Courtney, you'd mentioned off mic, and I don't ask this enough with our guests, but, I like asking, you know, where are you seeing God? Where are you experiencing God in your life right now? I mean, if you had to share that with somebody that isn't faith connected, They're not real sure about this whole relationship with Christ and everything that it means. What what compelling words would you share with them and go, and this is where I see God working in in my life and in this world right now?
T.J.:Well,
Courtney:at first, I I believe in relational evangelism. And so I I don't think I could walk up to someone in the street, I don't know, and just say, let me tell you where God is in my life. And that's gonna have a whole lot of I think they're gonna need to watch me and see and and kinda judge themselves. However, I think the the the two things I might say to a friend who says, hey. You know, I've been watching you.
Courtney:Tell me how do you see God working in the world? On a on a, I would say on a micro level and kind of maybe on a macro level. On on a micro level, on Christmas day, one of our 93 year old members, Herman Welch, died. And, his daughter, was doing what what we have to do during that that time, go through all his papers and find all the stuff that she needed to for the you know, for everything she had to do. And he had left very detailed instructions and and and and all of his affairs were very much in order.
Courtney:And she picked up a folder that was a folder about that was a car he had owned years ago and all of its maintenance records or whatever. I don't know what all and that was something just to push off to the side. But as she did, this piece of paper fell out of it. And she picked up the piece of paper, and it was a poem that if you had to be that poem today, I would say this is just too kinda sappy and and whatever. It's just not my style.
Courtney:It was a poem about, my experience on my first Christmas in heaven. And it's all about you think the choir at church was great at your church. I was in heaven. I hear the heavenly cry. You think the decorations are great.
Courtney:You ought to see the glories of heaven and streets of gold and all kinds of stuff. But for her, it this is Christmas day, and her dad has just died. And not only does this fall out of the the thing, but he has signed it at the bottom. Love, Paul. Everybody called him Paul.
Courtney:He didn't write it. He just clipped it out of the paper, but he signed it. And and she called me, and we were talking about it. And and I just said, you know, that's not a coincidence. That there's no way that's a coincidence, and that is god saying to you with with this and and and I I I'm this is my words I heard.
Courtney:But this stupid sappy, you know, you know, way too saccharin for me thing, I don't care because because that is God at work, and that's in kind of a a a micro way. The the the more macro way, I guess, is, I just read a book over Christmas, kind of a friend of a friend, wrote. It's called Love and Quasars. Paul Wallace is the name of is the author, and he's a, he has a seminary degree and he's an astrophysicist. And, so he's
T.J.:What a combination.
Courtney:Yes. Yes. Alright. So it's like you can find it wherever loving quasars, but but he charts in there how he is a self governed God through his work in science and and how and and and and through, astrophysics and this kind of thing. And it's sort of a psalm 8 kind of thing when I consider the the the the heavens.
Courtney:You know? Who am I? And I do see God in that great macro way working in the world. I would like to see God more. I'd like to see God at work more than I see God at work in things like the war in Ukraine and that sort of thing.
Courtney:But I trust God is at work because God hung the moon, and the stars. And and having folk like Paul helped me be able to, to experience that in in a in a even different way, in a better way. That that's kind of a a macro way. And I can't prove to some friend that that I talked to that that letter falling out of the the envelope is is god at work or that that god, this astrophysicist, very honestly say he had given up faith and then came back to it, you know, that that's God at work. But, boy, I see God at work.
T.J.:Yeah. That'd be an interesting conversation. I also like the aspect of, like, okay. If we as humans and as Christians contribute, you know, the the moon hanging in the sky, which is very rudimentary, but it looks like it's hanging in the sky. Then if that was created by a higher being, then certainly certainly there's a touch to little old me.
T.J.:I'm just a speck. Mhmm. And and little old you, you're just a speck. And look how unique we are. And I mean, with, you know, joints and fingers and thoughts and and we make noises with voices and all these different things that, you know, I don't know what else to contribute it to.
T.J.:Yeah. We can get into the genes and the bacteria and and those different things, but even then, what complexity that is in the unseen. And so, I like that. I I'll I'll have to give that more thought. I guess I haven't really thought of it that way in a little while.
T.J.:But you're right. Also, the the the micro in terms of the the inner inner relations between you and I. Having a faith conversation, right now and talking about God and doing it freely. And I hope for you at ease, you know, to Sure. Yeah.
T.J.:To be able to have those kinds of conversations and have more of them.
Courtney:Well, I would say that picks up too on, another thing that that that you mentioned in your your guide, and that is that is doubt okay? And I think doubt is not just okay. I think that can be one of those most powerful vehicles to faith.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Courtney:And and so to to to look at that science and first think, well, maybe, you know, we can come up with a a unified theory that that that excludes God. Maybe we don't need a God. And then to say, no. It's just not gonna work. It's not work for me that way.
Courtney:It just can't.
T.J.:I think and I think that'd be, for me, I see doubt and being inquisitive. They kinda go hand in hand. Not not in the sense of, like, doubt why I question or I I suspect that this is right or wrong or whatever. But I just see being inquisitive of like, well, I I want to know more. Maybe my first impression of x is negative and yet I'm still attracted in in the sense of excitement of knowing more.
T.J.:I'm seeking it out. But also, I think within the faith of like, I don't know if you said that there was something in the in the Old Testament and I don't remember it because I don't know all the old testament, you know, from beginning to end. Then that doubt could lead to that inquisitive nature of like, let me go and look at Leviticus or Numbers or wherever, you know, that story or that comment or that scripture. So I think doubt can drive us deeper into the faith or Absolutely. Or drive us to the faith when we were outside of it.
Courtney:And in some ways, if if I guess, try this on for heresy maybe, but if if there's not if there's if if I'm not willing to entertain the possibility that there isn't a God, Maybe it's not maybe the God isn't and I don't mean as a concept, but God isn't worth I I I when you're in the old testament, I was thinking about Psalm 8. Again, when I consider the heavens and all this grandeur, and then I wonder who am I? Also, you know, I mean, that's why would you pay it? Even if you are even there is a god, why would you pay attention to me? And yet David's coming out of that little bit of doubt.
Courtney:You know? Who am I? What in the world is? But you did let that slip of paper fall out from beneath that from from from that folder, or you did help me just just the other week. I was driving just to a Friday a week ago driving and and saw coming down off of of Lookout Mountain, and the moon was full, and it was just so beautiful.
Courtney:And and thanks thank you, God, that not only I noticed the moon, how beautiful it was, but that that that was a connection between me and you at that moment. And and it was a gift God gave to me, and and and I think this is a good, humbling God also gave me the gift to know that it was a gift. It wasn't that I recognize that God gave me that gift of faith, I'd like to say.
T.J.:Yeah. That is very Cumberland because that's how we approach grace.
Courtney:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Well, let's talk about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And what are your hopes for, this denomination?
Courtney:I think that if I think there is that we have so much to offer. And, again, going back to kinda being an echomaniac and kinda being a person that that likes to be around other people that don't think quite like me. My wife, I told you, has helped me with that. First Cumberland Church is a church that is very diverse, in in lots of way and mo more theologically than than demographically, sad to say. But but, just a few weeks ago, there was a couple that was thinking about joining and they had some quibbles with the confession.
Courtney:They were coming out of the Baptist church and they wanted to meet with the session and just kinda make sure that it was okay. Can we still join if we're not totally sure about some of this stuff? And it was during the Christmas season, and I already had committed to, taking communion to shut ins, and and they knew I was coming. But but I I knew our session got handled. I'd already talked with a couple.
Courtney:And and and so I just said, look. Y'all meet with them. And and the the report I got back, both from the couple and from sermons of session is our our guys our our guys and gals and women, men and women did such a great job of helping them see. You don't have to. Our our confession is there.
Courtney:The central doctrines are there. That's what we're asking, but you don't have to to to go along with every single dot and tittle in there. It's okay because because we as a congregation are diverse and we found a strength in that. We we it's something that could tear us apart, but we found a strength in that. That's true of us as a denomination too.
Courtney:I I also am terrified, and and my biggest anxiety in ministry is over our denomination. And and and will a denomination that managed to stay together during the civil war, which tore apart every other major denomination, and we were a major denomination then, we might not be now. But we we managed to hang together, during that, not easily, but we did. Are we gonna be torn apart? I grieve that we could not come to a reunification with the CPCA church.
Courtney:I wish that we could have I think that would have been a marvelous witness to the world. And I grieve that that we may tear as our as as a ununited, body, we may tear our just the CPC church now may tear itself apart over some other social issues, and whatnot. And, I was I've been thinking about this so much last couple of days. In the lectionary right now, it's one that the the pistol lessons are going to 1st Corinthians 1. And and Paul writes about how we're all called, and there's lots of people all over the world they're called and they're calling on the name of Jesus.
Courtney:And then he says, but I hear there's quarrels among you and you've got to be of one mind and one purpose. And one man doesn't mean you all think alike. One man doesn't mean you all have the same opinions or even the same theologies about this, that, or the other. But but it does mean that you're all calling on the name of Jesus Christ. And I'm just so afraid we're gonna lose that.
Courtney:And and we aren't big enough to be separate. I mean, we'll just I don't know what will happen, but but we've got to it's sort of the Patrick and Henry thing. We're either gonna hang together or gonna hang separately, but but, I just I I I hate that and I hate to think that, that we may we may divide ourselves. So my my my hope is my hope is we don't do that, and maybe that's a horrible and it's not even a I'm not sure we're gonna make it. And and and that's like gigantic anxiety.
T.J.:I don't have any answers.
Courtney:But since you Oh, come on.
T.J.:Since you had mentioned the confession of faith, there's a big chunk in there about the church admission. You know, we are the church. And and it's about witness. The word witness is used a lot in that section, and that's where our priorities should be. What does our witness look like?
T.J.:And, you know, witness can convey, you know, just our feet or our voices, our hands, our heart, our mind, our eye, you know, all the different senses and and what that mission, what that witness looks like. To me, that's that's where our focus should be, and I know maybe the counterargument is, well, I can't witness unless, you know, this gets figured out or we resolve that or we're together or apart or that sort of thing. I don't gather that from the scriptures. I gather that, okay, we our calling is is our witness and that is our mission and let's exhaust ourselves doing that.
Courtney:Mhmm. I agree. And recognize that we all need each other and that there are some people that I will never ever be able to reach because of who I am and my experiences and and whatever. And there's some people that that I can reach that you or somebody else could never ever reach just because of of of who we are. And if we throw all that away, then we just totally we destroy we destroy our our our witness and our mission.
Courtney:And and and rather than saying, you know, that that and and what we tend to see it as this conservative liberal divide, and we'll look at it like that. I mean, there are some people that need that more harsh conviction that that tends to be a little more on the on the conservative side, and there's some that need more of the that have have suffered from that in one way or another need to hear a little more on the other end. And and I I don't I think liberal and conservative is a is a waste of time. I don't think I think that's even gone there. But but but I I do think that we just I mean, that's what first Corinthians is all about.
Courtney:And and it also says we're doing 1. You already have every spiritual gift you need. So quit arguing with one another about your gift or your gift. Alright. And I think that's also your theology or my theology, whatever.
Courtney:If if if we are if we're calling on the name of Lord Jesus Christ and we're trying to be in common purpose that we are to be witnesses to Christ, then let's just trust God to work with us and and and and we need to give each other the grace to be wrong. I may be wrong, but the things I feel really strong about, you may be wrong. Give me the grace to be wrong and and let's let as iron sharpens iron, let one friend sharpen another, and and see if we can't move forward.
T.J.:For me to be the person that I'm called to be, the Krishna I'm called to be, I can't be without you, Courtney, and without Avery Cumberland Presbyterian. I'm I'll be incomplete. And and, so I need everybody. I need everybody to push me forward and to help me fulfill the calling that it well, the individual call, but also the shared call of witness. And, so, I I need all of us.
T.J.:I need everybody to to become that person, to strive to become that person that, that I'm called to be. That's my perspective. And labels and and that sort of thing, I don't know. Those probably change over time, and and I'd rather call you by your first name or your last name than some other title or
Courtney:Yep.
T.J.:Absolutely. Or or whatever you're pigeonholed in certain belief system or principles or values. But let's shift gears because I don't want our conversation to kind of get, stuck down into that. Oh, we can always come back and revisit. I do like asking guests.
T.J.:What what are you currently reading? You just finished a book you were sharing earlier. And what kind of music speaks to you, speaks to your faith and, maybe, movies or sports and that sort of thing. Just kind of give a snapshot a bit about what, what tickles your fancy, what speaks to your faith, and what's some fun reads, television shows, movies, music that you also like.
Courtney:That the one book, The Loving Quasars was a great book. Another one I just finished, this week is also written by a friend of mine. It's called Reshape. And it's a look at the church, and moving forward kinda after COVID. He actually wrote it during COVID.
Courtney:And, just I guess to open close breath, these maybe the the thing that was most powerful for me about that book was COVID has has brought up so much concern, rightfully so. It's exposed, you know, some of the decline that we already going in, it has it has accelerated some of and this was not true in our church, but in some churches, some of the divides that were there got open, wide open, and turned into outright warfare,
T.J.:you
Courtney:know, in in churches and and that kind of thing. And so COVID can be seen as such as such a curse. And of course it was. But but he's early in the book, he says, I want you to think back to the middle of March of 2020. And within 3 days, you totally changed your ministry.
Courtney:Your church totally changed as you went from everything you knew. You know, Sunday morning's coming and we know what it's gonna look like to we gotta figure out how to put this thing on the web. We gotta figure out what we're gonna do or whatever. And and you did it. And and then you figured out how to administer your congregation, and then you figured out how to try to minister to the wider world, in in the space of 3 days.
Courtney:And it took a crisis to kinda shake us to do that, but he said, you, you know, you can continue. And that's again that again, I'm working on 1st Corinthians 1 now. So Paul is saying, you already have every spiritual gift you need. You you've got it. You that is so powerful.
Courtney:And so so I've been thinking lots just last 2 or 3 days about how do I what what what resources do we already have that we need to leverage here at First Chattanooga, and and better leverage, so that we are doing the job that we need to do rather than waiting for next crisis to do it. Let's do it now.
T.J.:Yeah. That yeah. That's really interesting. Look. If we could take just a, you know, a moment and look how quickly the local congregation, collectively as a denomination, we pivoted in a time of need so that we could continue not only to be spiritually fed through our worship experiences, our study experiences, but also to provide ministry outside of ourselves in a really really short time, in a time that was certainly filled with uncertainty globally, not just in a local context, but globally.
T.J.:Yeah. I I think I hope every every person in leadership and every congregation, you know, takes a moment if they haven't already and just go, hey, we were able to accomplish things that we'd we'd even know was possible or feasible. We didn't even know we had it in us. Yeah.
Courtney:In the vision of human nature. God can work all things together to be with those that love him and work towards his purpose. Let me a quick great Cumberland story about that. We started doing our worship services, and we and we chose to to to to not stream them live, but to prerecord them. And we we got a nice camera so we could really try to put a a really quality product.
Courtney:We had some trouble with the, the the livestream early on. And so we said we can do a much better job than we did. So we started doing that. And then that led into me starting to do the the Sunday school lesson, and and I used the the Cumberland encounter material. And so I started, with lesser quality.
Courtney:I used my cell phone, but recorded because a lot of it was from home. We, you know, was working from home. But recording a lesson and putting that up so that people would have have both the worship already in the Bible study opportunity. And we decided when we kinda started emerging from that, we wouldn't record the entire service, but we continue putting just the sermon up. And so we record the sermon usually on Tuesdays.
Courtney:And I decided I'm gonna keep doing the Bible study lesson. And, the same person who died, Herman Welch, his daughter Shelly is a member of the Beaver Creek Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Knoxville. And they were having difficulty finding a Sunday school teacher coming out of COVID, and she mentioned to somebody, well, you know, my my parents' pastor is doing this online thing. Why don't we watch it or or get somebody to agree to watch it and let him kinda help be their the the background consultant, and then that'll help. And the class said, no.
Courtney:Let's just watch let's just watch it as a class. And so I teach a class here at First Chattanooga, but while I'm teaching that class at First Chattanooga, Beaver Creek Cumberland is watching the tape of me teaching the same lesson. It's not live. It it's tape. But but and then I I think what they're doing is is discussing it, later.
Courtney:And then but here's the the the wonderful thing about that. They now decided sometime this spring, they're gonna come to to to First Chattanooga for a worship service. And and a lot of the lessons I've taped I've taped at home. And and I live on we have a little little horse farm because of the what we talked about earlier. And they see the horses and all, and and they know that we have lots of groups come out to the farm.
Courtney:And so they said, could we come out to the farm for for lunch? And we said, absolutely. I cannot wait for these people I've never met. But for over a year now, I've been their Sunday school teacher. I cannot wait till we get this thing pulled together and and and we do this.
Courtney:What a I mean, that that never coulda happened. It never woulda happened if it weren't for Right.
T.J.:Man, I'm just laughing because I'm thinking, that's a lot of Cumberland Presbyterian. So you have the writer of whatever quarter of the encounter, Cumberland Presbyterian. Sometimes there are multiple writers. Yeah. And then there's you and you're reading and and discussing the lesson, and then the class there at Chattanooga First, and then you have Beavercreek.
T.J.:Man, that's that's just oozing oozing out. The only thing that's missing is, when you gather, whoever the writer is for that quarter, you'll have to invite her. That's true. You know? That's true.
T.J.:Yeah. And just Yeah. Man, that that would be, beautifully chaotic. I wonder if the conversation will ever leave the encounter or whatever the last event. What was the name of the book, that was, written during the pandemic?
T.J.:Could you tell that to me?
Courtney:Yeah. It's reshaped by Mark Tidsworth.
T.J.:Okay. Thank you. You had said that. I just couldn't remember it.
Courtney:Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:What about music or movies? Anything else that just kinda resonates with you?
Courtney:The movie that changed my life in lots of ways that that that formed me as a minister, came out in the, I guess the late eighties. I was in college, maybe the mid eighties. It's The Mission. And it is a movie about Catholic Jesuit missionaries 1600. And they are are, trying to to minister to the the native South Americans.
Courtney:And while the native South Americans are being harvested as slaves, and ultimately, in some ways, it's a kind of a slow moving movie and you really gotta stick through it. But it's incredibly powerful. And ultimately, there are 2 priests and they both are trying to serve God in their way. And one is completely wrong and one is completely right. And they both are passionate and they both and one chooses to take up arms and the other chooses not to is the kind of the bottom line.
Courtney:And, I guess since I'm moving the eighties, I can do this spoiler alert. They both get killed. They both die. But, you know, it it's and I went with with 2 or 3 other pre ministerial students and and and from college. And we walked we couldn't speak.
Courtney:We walked out of the theater not talking. We got about halfway back in the car to campus before we even said a word. But it's both a cautionary tale. You can be incredibly passionate about something and and and you think it's ministry and you're not. And and and it's And it's also you can be incredibly passionate and doing absolutely the right thing and you're still gonna get shot.
Courtney:And Jesus did. And you just need to recognize that either literally or figuratively. It's not the feel good movie of the year, but man, so one of the other questions is what do you wanna ask God? And I wanna ask God, am I doing it right? And where I'm not and I know I'm not doing it all right.
Courtney:So when I'm not doing it right, please help me, and help me when the time comes, if the time comes to walk right into the the the the hell, the the the the gunfire or whatever. I mean, literally or figuratively, and not not run away from it if that's what I'm called to do. So so
T.J.:Yeah. And, you know, we were talking about the, the wonderful gifts and the examples of of those within the church, disciples of the church who may not fall in leadership roles. But there is that level of anxiety if you are in a leadership role. You don't even have to be ordained to the word and sacraments. But that that questioning of, like, am I leading right?
T.J.:Am I doing the right thing? Am I am I am I teaching is it is it reaching people? Is it the right teaching? Yeah. You know, from the sermon delivery to the pastoral care, even to the administrative duties of, like, that constant questioning of and I you know, sometimes it is about adequacy or inadequacies, but it's also just I wanna do the right thing where people can experience your presence, God.
T.J.:Mhmm. And if I'm in the way, get me out of the way. But let me know when I'm in the way.
Courtney:And the metrics for are you doing it right are so hard. I mean, you know, after Jesus preaches the sermon when he refused to to feed the people the second time and everybody leaves and he looks at the 12 and says, do you wanna leave too? Just because the church is is bursting the seams doesn't mean that it's that you're doing it all right. But if the church isn't bursting the scenes, maybe that is a that maybe that is a metric. How do you how do you know?
Courtney:It is so hard.
T.J.:Yeah. Those measurements of of success or lack thereof. I
Courtney:Or faithfulness. I guess, I know yeah.
T.J.:You can.
Courtney:I expect I I I certainly I I know in my heart, and I only can know in my, I mean, in my heart the the the amount of passion that I have for the gospel and for Christ and for all of that. And and and because of that, I trust that that when I die, God will say to me, well done, good and faithful servant. But how much is God saying not just me but to all of us, you know, but but gosh, I could it could be a whole lot better done if you would just listen to me and if you would do this, that, or the other. And you're just so blind because of whatever reason. It it it's it's
T.J.:Yeah. The the this is a poor metric and I don't recommend when I get back to, you know, the whether it's the hotel room or my car or the airport, I reflect back. And instead of diving in, oh, I should have said this differently or I shouldn't have said that or I have to ask myself, did I give all of myself in that moment Yeah. In that situation? That, for me, on a personal and professional level, that's that's where I'm at.
T.J.:And if the answer is ever no, then there needs to be some really deep reflection for future stuff. Now, how do you how do I measure that? Can I graph that out? Can I
Courtney:Right?
T.J.:Show you like, oh,
Courtney:it must
T.J.:have been all of me because of well, there were this many people in attendance or I got this I don't do it that way. That's the the only way I can keep sanity and grounded is did I give everything that was available to me in that moment to those people, to that worship experience, to that event. That's Yeah. Yeah. That's and really that's all I have to offer is all of me.
Courtney:Yeah. I I think so too. And and and that all and again, because I'm energy and and and energetic and passionate, you know, is that energy, is it me waving my hands saying, look at me, look at me. Or is it me really trying to show God? And so I've mentioned 1st Corinthians 1 a lot today because I've just been immersed in that because I'm studying it.
Courtney:I'm so excited about what I'm learning. And and that it that that for me is part of the metric because it's impacting me. And so it's not when I read it and I think, boy, oh, so and so needs to hear this. That's probably the wrong metric. But when it's, oh my goodness.
Courtney:And now I've got this. Now I wanna share this with the congregation and and and or if I'm teaching with with even Beaver Creek gets to hear about it. I hope that's, you know, that's another is there is the the excitement isn't boy, look how clever I am. But, wow, I never noticed this before. And if it weren't for me reading whoever or or God giving me this as I was reading and praying over, how how would I you know, but but
T.J.:I have one last question for you. Okay. And just fair warning, it's it's tongue in cheek. But I think this would be a good way to round out our our conversation today. Did you ever give up on, the sweepstakes?
Courtney:Yes. As and that that's hilarious you asked that because, my dad just very rarely but every once in a while, he would go and buy a lottery ticket. And I used to always just tease him so much about that because I said, dad, a lot because I had said I've learned and I love this phrase. The lottery is a tax on people bad at math. You're not there's if there's you're just you're and he would say, okay.
Courtney:Here's the deal then. If I buy a lottery ticket, and I win, will you agree with me that you get none? I'm going to give it all to your sisters. But in that that part of your inheritance, you don't get any of. I said, I will absolutely agree to that because you're not gonna win it.
Courtney:So, yeah, I gave up on it.
T.J.:Courtney, I have enjoyed getting to know you better and spending this time with you on this podcast. You've made me laugh. You made me think about my ministry and my faith, and it's definitely been enriched by hearing yours.
Courtney:Thank you, friend. Thank you so much for asking me to to be a part of it.
T.J.:You've been listening to The Cumberland Road. Please share with others about this great podcast and the great guests who have been on and those that are upcoming. Courtney had mentioned CS Lewis, so I wanna close with a quote from his book, Miracles, pertaining to his transformation, a follower of Christ. Lewis writes, it is always shocking to meet life where we thought we were alone. Look out, we cry. It's alive. And therefore, this is the very point at which so many draw back. I would have done so myself if I could, and proceed no further with Christianity. An impersonal God, well and good. A subjective god of beauty, truth, and goodness inside our own heads, better still. A formless life force surging through us, a vast power which we can tap. Best of all, but God himself, alive, pulling at the other end of the cord, perhaps approaching at an infinite speed, the hunter, the king, husband. That is quite another matter.
