Dale Irby - We Are Broken
You were listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. Dale Erby is a husband, a father, an attorney, a substitute teacher, and an elder at the First Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Olive Branch, Mississippi. In this faith conversation, we talk about the ethics of law coupled with the Christian faith. We talk about Dale discerning new career paths and overcoming a difficult period in his life. This conversation is a little bit longer than previous ones on the Cumberland Road. Wasn't until later in our conversation that it takes a turn, I felt to keep the integrity of the mood, instead of splitting this podcast into 2 episodes as I've done previously, I've kept this one together. I hope that you were moved by Dale's faith journey as I was. And so now, my friend, enjoy this conversation with Dale Irby.
T.J.:Dale, you mentioned to me off mic that your first career was in law. So what did you do in law?
Dale:I started out in a general practice. I did personal injury when I was in law school. That was what I was interested in was basically personal injury.
T.J.:So what what is that like?
Dale:Automobile accidents, slip and falls, basically suing people for money.
T.J.:Did you ever have a television commercial?
Dale:I did not. Okay.
T.J.:Alright.
Dale:I was with a firm that that actually didn't resisted the television commercials. So I also did some criminal work. It was general practice. Did some criminal work, a little bit of divorce work, and some bankruptcy, but I kinda started moving away from that at the end of my time with that firm, and I was there for about 10 years.
T.J.:Did you always wanna be an attorney?
Dale:I decided to go to law school. I was a political science major in college, and I had a professor. I took several constitutional law classes, and he made the suggestion that I might consider going to law school. And and as the saying was back then, the only things that you could do with a political science degree were either teach or go to law school, and I didn't think I wanted to go and pursue a master's and a PhD in political science, so I opted for law school.
T.J.:What was it about, law that attracted you? Is it I I just imagine that it's, you know, everything's in a category. It's almost explained. You know, it's like reason and here's a consequence.
Dale:I like the logical process.
T.J.:Yeah. Thank you. That's better put.
Dale:And and so that part appealed to me. I didn't have expectations of being rich, but, you know, professional and anticipated better than average income. So that was something that that appealed to me. Although, I will tell you that the law profession is not as lucrative, especially in the Memphis area, as what a lot of people might think.
T.J.:How did how did your faith speak to your practice of law? Do they complement each other? Do they conflict? I mean, there's a code of ethics there, but specifically, how did your Christian faith help you in the practice of law?
Dale:That's a difficult because I at the first law firm I worked for, I was there for about 10 years. The senior partner was a Christian. In fact, he was taking some courses at seminary in the evening and and so we would have some theological discussions. And I've I didn't feel that there was anything unchristian in that environment. But representing doing criminal defense work was a little bit, that was sometimes difficult just working in that element.
Dale:And fortunately, I I did not do a lot of extensive criminal defense work, but did some.
T.J.:What was it representing?
Dale:Basically, representing criminal defendants. And a lot of it was more like misdemeanor traffic stuff, but I I had a few cases that armed robbery, and and I decided that those type of cases really were not where I was. I I didn't feel like I was led in that direction. The personal injury, you know, the Bible has teachings about how we're supposed to deal one with one another as Christians, and so at times I was a little bit conflicted. I find that there's a lot of, with all the TV advertisements, I would have people that would call and you'd ask if they were injured.
Dale:It's like, well, not really. It's like, well, just go settle for the damage in your car if you went to the doctor. This is not something to make money.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:You know? That's it the law is designed to compensate you for real injuries. Mhmm. And so it was and with all the advertising, I saw a lot of unethical behavior with attorneys, and it made it very difficult for small practitioners like I was to to practice in that market. And so I moved away from that area and actually decided to get out of the practice of law.
Dale:And I was looking at going to work. I had interviewed with American Express Financial Advisors, and one of the problems with that was that's basically selling financial products, and I'm probably not great at cold cold sales calling. And so I was weighing options, and then I did not approach this firm, but I was approached by a bankruptcy firm about coming to work for them. And so when I interviewed with senior partner, he was getting close to retirement and wanting to scale back and planned on leaving the firm within the next couple of years, and there was another partner that was a little bit older than I about year and a half, 2 years older than me, and so we were basically contemporaries. And so I told the senior partner, I said, you know, I really was planning on getting out of their practice.
Dale:And he said, well, he said, come to work for a month. Give it a try. If you don't like it, no hard feelings. And so I went to work for that firm, and I was there for about 20 years. As a bankruptcy attorney, I I felt like I was able to sit down and help people with problems.
Dale:And so that was more gratifying in a lot of ways. People had legitimate financial and whether they made mistakes or whether it was something totally out of their control, I I was able to help people. And so Right.
T.J.:Because you're the expert in that. I mean, you're able to hear the story, but also you provide the guidance as well as, well, here are your options. Like, I wouldn't know. I wouldn't even know where to begin. And if you threw a book in front of me and said, well, here's how to interpret in law, I mean, what little I do know, it's almost in another language.
Dale:Exactly. And the bankruptcy practice I was in, to a large extent, it's what I call cookie cutter. It was, you know, most of them were just routine. Fill out the paperwork and let it go through the process. And I actually, when I decided to go to work there, I talked to a colleague who did a lot of bankruptcy work and I'd done some previously, but not a large amount.
Dale:And he said, you know, he said, it's a little bit mundane. And at that point in time, I was kind of ready for mundane. And this firm basically, they were the 2 partners and they were working Monday through Friday, 9 to 5. No weekends. If you worked late, that was working till 5 after 5, and that didn't happen.
Dale:They had a full support staff that did basically what I call the grunt work and they had on top of they were making probably somewhere between $80 a $100,000 a year. Now they were not starting me out at that as an associate, but that's it was with the understanding that I would eventually move into that. Mhmm. And on top of that, they fully funded 401 k for the employees and and for themselves. And they paid health insurance.
Dale:And so when you add all those benefits up, you know, that that's pretty good money today for working 9 to 5 because most lawyers that are really making the big money are working, you know, 55, 65 hours a week. They are basically slaves to their practice. And this was basically a a no stress minimal stress job. And so I've I took that anticipating that we'd move in that direction. Unfortunately, a lot of changes happened in the bankruptcy world.
Dale:There was more competition in the Memphis market. When the senior partner retired, the other partner went through some difficulties and in personal life. And so things began to kind of unravel at the firm. And so we began to lose a lot of market share. And then later, congress actually changed the bankruptcy law.
Dale:And I stuck it out and basically, it's kind of like the Titanic. I I rode that shit to the end. I actually left the firm, and there's basically the owner that that's left. And I I left in April, and basically COVID pretty much killed the bankruptcy business. There there was not enough business for 2 lawyers.
Dale:And it's we're nearing the end of the career. It was time to go.
T.J.:So you you left you've just recently left the firm then?
Dale:As of last year.
T.J.:Oh, wow. Okay.
Dale:And something I I started to leave about 10 years ago. My wife was trying to get me to consider going into the teaching field. Mhmm. And I've been working as a substitute teacher and looking to hopefully transition into that. So far, those doors have not fully opened.
Dale:I can get plenty of work as a substitute, but becoming a full time permanent teacher. We're in the process of pursuing that. And you had a guest a couple of episodes back, and she was a counselor in the school system. And she said something that really kind of hit me. She had gone and prepared for that, and the doors were not opening.
Dale:And in her prayer time, she said, God basically said, and if that door doesn't open and I want you to do something else, are you willing to do it? And that I I have actually been approached with some other options, but I feel that God is still calling me to teach, and and I was actually offered something recently. And I basically explained where I was, and then it's another fellow Christian.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:And so the way we left it, they were going to pursue other candidates. I'm going to continue to pursue something in teaching, but if we find that he doesn't find the proper candidate and the doors are not opening, and we both feel that God's calling me in that direction, then we can revisit.
T.J.:Yeah. You were telling me, Dale, we were talking prior to this, and I thought it was really interesting. I'm paraphrasing. You said something about, I I'm open to a new career path. And to to hear to hear that, normally, you would think, you know, that comes from somebody who's in their twenties, you know, still kind of, but I was really intrigued by the fact that the openness, because the older I get, I think, probably to my detriment, the more rigid I am, and the more, you know, I'm probably more narrow focused and, you know, and, so you really inspired and intrigued me at the same time.
T.J.:But with your openness of God leading me into a new vocation, and how comfortable you sounded when you were saying that. I don't wanna put words in your mouth or whatever, but it was I don't know. It was really eye opening for me.
Dale:You're younger than I am. And so and at one point in time, I probably I was not previously quite this open. As I said I've said God had to kinda drag me through the prior patch to kinda get me on the course. I've got some scars and and some cuts and stuff to show for it.
T.J.:Okay. So you got to this point at times kicking and screaming. Yeah. Okay. Alright.
Dale:I you know, but I I I'm 63 years old, and I'm trying to figure out what I want to do when I grow up or or better yet, what what God's calling me to do.
T.J.:That that's what you said. And I found that so interesting that because I heard openness when you shared that. I was like, oh, wow. You know, because I I think, it quite an example for me. And that leads to you know, I shared with you, but I wanna say it again, how I met you and why I asked you to be on the podcast is you attend the Olive Branch or the First Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Olive Branch, Mississippi.
T.J.:And
T.J.:there was
T.J.:a period there that the congregation was in search, and I would go in and fill in at times during that search. And you were the first face that I, as a guest, happened to be a guest speaker or preacher, but you're the first face that people see when they enter into the church. And the friendliness, the hospitality that you offer, I think all congregations should keep this in mind, is very crucial. And you don't seem to meet a stranger when new people and the regulars come into the foyer of of the church? Is that something that you do intentional?
T.J.:Does that come naturally to you?
Dale:It does not necessarily come naturally, especially to strangers. And sometimes I think the the fear of that is because it seems like in the Cumberland Presbyterian, there there's a lot of old timers that that sometimes kind of go away and when they come back, everybody knows everybody. I'm like, okay. Is that someone I should know? And I'm kind of a newcomer.
Dale:We've only been with the denomination for about, probably, about 10 years. And so but I don't know. I I I have a comfort level generally talking to people. It comes from a a lot of what I did
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:In the law practice. You know, you sit down, you build relationships with with clients. Mhmm. And so just especially as I get to know people. Right.
Dale:It's very easy for me to just sit down and and talk. I enjoy conversation with people.
T.J.:It's a form of faith sharing. It's a form of evangelism. And, you know, the anxiety levels that people may feel in entering into a church or or a facility or a building they've never been to before, And to enter into, a congregation, into a church building, and be able to be greeted in a warm, genuine way is it's crucial. It it's important. You know?
T.J.:And you have that ability without being too overbearing. And, so I just wanted to kinda pick at your brain, hear your faith journey, of course. But also, that was my first impression and my first encounter just as a guest preacher at the church. And it made an impression on me, and I think it's something that we as Christians can talk about, the importance of being able to warmly welcome and greet people when they've already made the decision to come and to see what the worship is about, to see what the people are about, to see what God is all about. And, I think that hospitality I know that hospitality really begins even before the worship service, and and people will make up their minds really before the worship experience if they're gonna come back or not.
Dale:I I think that's true, and and, you know, Christianity, one of the key elements is is fellowship. Mhmm. You know, that I mean, that's why we come together to worship. That's why we don't you know, people are like, oh, I can worship god out on golf course or out on the lake fishing, and and, yeah, you can commune with god, but it's important to have that relationship with fellow believers because we're all on a journey and it's often a tough journey. Mhmm.
Dale:And God created us to share our burdens with our brothers and sisters and to support one another.
T.J.:Dale, you were telling me that you have different faith backgrounds, Christian faith backgrounds, growing up and even in a young adulthood.
Dale:Yes.
T.J.:Let's go back. Let's go back as far as you want to. We can go back as early as, your childhood. And, let's talk about profession of faith, what other congregations or churches you've been a part of before you got connected with the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
Dale:My parents I was raised in a Christian family. Parents were Baptist, and so I grew up in the Baptist church, and and my youth years were were spent in the Baptist church, youth choir youth group. And early part of college, there was a church, Kingsway Christian Church, that's it's in Germantown now, but it was in the city limits on Poplar close to where International Paper is right across the corner. There's a Walgreens there now, and they had a chapel and and still have it out at their Germantown property that's open 24 hours. And when I was in college, there were some things that I was going through, and I would go late at night, 11 o'clock, and spend time just praying and meditating in the chapel.
Dale:They had a they have a beautiful stained glass window of Jesus in the garden, and I decided that I had been to that chapel several times and decided I wanted to go visit the church. And so when I approached my parents, they were like, sure. And, in fact, my father's parents were divorced and he was raised in the Baptist church on his mother's side, but he his father's side was actually disciples of Christ and and Kingsway Christian Church is disciples of Christ. And back before you had all the non denominational churches that we have now, it was kind of a meeting ground for people like if couple was one was Baptist and the other was Methodist, while they immersed for baptism, they would accept either.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:And so I started going there, and I went there for several years. And, then when my wife and I got married, we ended up going to an independent Christian church out in Raleigh with some friends, and we were living in Midtown, driving out to Raleigh. And then we ended up moving to Olive Branch. And we went to Graceland Disciples of Christ for a very short time. I did not join there, but it just wasn't the right fit.
Dale:And there was a PCA, Presbyterian Church of America Church, right around the corner from our house, and we had been driving. We've been there for for over a year. And one day, school was out, and I had my daughter. And we had gone to the movie, and we were on our way home. And I stopped in and one of the deacons was there, the ministry was out.
Dale:I just kinda asked some questions about the church and we ended up visiting and joined the PCA church. And we were there probably, I don't know, 8, 9 years. I taught youth Sunday school
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:And, actually took a book that I'd read. I don't have the faith enough faith to be an atheist, which was an apologetics, and I got very interested in the apologetics. And I took that book, which is a complicated book and I actually took portions of it and created my own curriculum and did a short apologetics course for middle school. And we stayed there for some time, but my daughter was there were some things that she just wasn't fitting there, and so decided it was time to make a change. And I found that I was going to church on Sunday teaching my class, and my wife and my daughter were not going with me.
Dale:And and, so pretty soon, Brandon, my son, wasn't going, and I was the only one going. And so I decided it was time to make a change, and we were at the Christmas parade at Olive Branch and someone handed us a flyer about Cumberland Forest, which was something that First Cumberland Presbyterian did around Christmas time. We're no longer doing that, but we had done that for years.
T.J.:What what was Cumberland Forest?
Dale:And it was basically they decorated the church and I had workshops for the kids, and it was geared towards kids coming in. And, kids would do things in the workshop and candy and things like that. Church was decorated. And so we took the children there. And I ran into missus Culbreth, who is still plays the piano there, and I down to missus Culbreth.
Dale:My daughter I mean, my sister took piano lessons from Mrs. Culbirth. I took piano lessons for a very short time and she figured out that I was just coming to visit her and her daughter and the girl in that store and told my mom to save her money and just let me come with my sister and visit. And later, my daughter she actually gave lessons to my daughter a few years back. So they had contemporary service, and my daughter started playing in the contempt playing the contemporary music.
Dale:That to go back, they had a contemporary service, and we enjoyed the contemporary music. And so we started visiting. And one day, miss Culbreth came up to me and she said, are are y'all just visiting? Are you looking to join? And and it's like, I think we're looking to join.
T.J.:And She called you out on it.
Dale:We we went home. We've we've been going there for about a month and I asked my wife, Trish, I said, are we gonna go visit any place else? And she's like, no. And I said, so we might as well join. She's like, yeah.
Dale:So we we joined and we've been there for, I guess, time runs away, but it's, I guess, about 9, 10 years Alright. And everything.
T.J.:You've you've served in multiple leadership roles there at at the church. What what role stands out for you the most? Now you're greeter, you're, well, inactive elder, Sunday school teacher. I don't know all the roles, but
Dale:When we first joined there, I did teach youth Sunday School. I actually tried to get the apologetics going there for some of the high school, and we never quite got that really going.
T.J.:Dale, that that's a hard sell.
Dale:That that's it it is.
T.J.:You have to explain the apologetics. And then by the time you get done explaining it, everybody's scattered.
Dale:And I I think my burden is we're in an environment where we bring children up in the church, and so many people Christian because that's what mom and dad are and and, well, that's how I was raised.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:And, you know, Paul tells us to always be testing our faith and and think about our faith and be prepared to give a reason
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:For our faith. And To be honest, I was not struggling with my faith or anything. I was just kind of walking through the Christian bookstore, and just the title jumped out at me. And I picked up the book, and I started looking through it and bought it and went home. And I grew up as a Christian and I never had any reason to question, but there again, I was one of those kids that was, you know, I I was brought up.
Dale:As I started reading through the book, Norm Geisler, Frank Wells, they did it it's a very deep book, but it's fascinating to look at all the evidence for God. Mhmm. And I I can remember when I was 16 years old and had gone on a choir trip, we had gone to Virginia, and we were in the beach one day on the beach one day and in the mountains the nets, but I was standing out looking out at the Atlantic Ocean, and I was like, how can anybody not think there's a God? Just just the majesty of the waves just looking at that. And anytime I'm at the golf, the beach, that that hits me.
Dale:And in fact, we just went this past summer, the whole family, and I was standing out one evening, actually night. And I have not seen the Milky Way in years, the light pollution, everything, and it was so dark and I could see the Milky Way. And I was just standing there, and and that thought, how can anybody not think there there's a God. And then when you start reading Wells and Geisler's book, it gives you the evidence for God and then also gives you the evidence for Christianity. And it concerns me that so many younger people are raised in the church, but then when they get into college and start getting hit with other beliefs and I I don't want to get into liberal conservative, but you start getting bombarded with so many things.
Dale:And they don't know why. They believe what they believe, And so I did teach the middle school, and we did Lee Strobel's youth version of A Case for Christ. And in fact, pastor Jim basically led that service confirmation class and, had several, and then he came in. He let me teach most of it, and then he came in. And I had several of the younger people that made their public profession, including my son, Brandon.
Dale:And so that was I have a passion for that because I I think so many children, parents do a good job of trying to make them their and and that's it. A lot of times, trying to make them and it's like, I know when they get off into college, they're going to stray away, but hopefully, you know, they'll come back and and that I know that happens. But if you give them a reason for that faith, and even if they stray away, at least that gives them a firmer footing and something that hopefully helps them come back.
T.J.:Yeah. I think it's helpful to have confirmation classes, catechism classes, discipleship, forming classes. I guess we could apologetics classes. I mean, we could name it many, many things, but building building the foundations of and attempting to address the questions of, why are we here? How did we get here?
T.J.:Who is God? How does God interact with the world? How does God interact with humans? How do humans interact with God? Who is Jesus?
T.J.:What does he mean? What did he stand for? What did he do? And, I mean, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 25, 35, 45. I mean, these are questions that we we can grapple with, and what better place to be able to do it but in within a space where not only are those questions safe to ask, they're encouraged.
T.J.:Because you you can get the guidance from those who've been disciples longer or have the wisdom or have thought through or pull books off of a shelf and go, I wonder what this is about, and then find yourself lost in in the text. And then you created a curriculum, Dale. Not every it sounds like something a minister would do. A minister couldn't find the right material, and and out of frustration, oftentimes, they they create it, by themselves.
Dale:And, unfortunately, that old curriculum that I had, I I no longer have that. And and that's probably why I use Lee Strobel's Case for Christ because that accomplished a lot of what I wanted to do without me having to go back and try to recreate what I'd done earlier. Again, I I just kids are are brought up. We're we're taught that we have to be tolerant, and then we start getting into truth is relevant. You can't know the truth, and, you know, I mean, Jesus, you know, says he is the truth.
Dale:And so I would stand in that room, and I would try to tell the kids, you know, you have to be tolerant. People have the right to believe whatever they want to believe. In fact, my daughter, Megan, and I had a lot of conversations since she was growing up, and I told her, I said, Megan, people have the right to choose the pathway straight to hell if that's what they so choose. And I would tell the kids we had a brown wall, and I said, I can stand here and I'm like, this wall is green. And I said, you can look and say, that's okay, mister Irby.
Dale:That is your right to believe that that wall is green. You can believe that all you want. You have that right, but the truth is that Wallace Brown. And I sometimes think that kids get the mixed signals that tolerance goes beyond tolerating one's right to believe something, and we're we're told that you have to not only tolerate their right, but you have to embrace their belief and encourage them and validate it. And and I have a problem with with that because there is truth.
Dale:Now some things are a little bit sometimes it's a little more difficult to find what that truth is. And sometimes we blind ourselves and get so stuck on what we want to be true. And so sometimes we have to be very careful about that, but there are some people who believe things that are clearly erroneous and not only do we tolerate that, but we reinforce.
T.J.:Yeah. I like how you you covered both ends. You know, it was like, truth. You know, anything is truth. But I also like how you covered the opposite end of that as in, well, this is the only truth which can sometimes blind you to other voices, new revelations, because yeah.
T.J.:And but going back to the young people, is to have those types of conversations, again, in a safe environment, like a Sunday school classroom, or fellowship hall or somebody's house where where we can encourage conversations to ask those questions and and and have dialogue about those. I I think adults need it as well. I I almost feel like we we need that as, older older
Dale:Most definitely.
T.J.:People. Middle aged people and and older just to create those environments to go, you know, there there's real struggles out there. How do how do we how do we cope? How do we and and do the difficult work when there is conflict, when there are life struggles? It's so much easier when you have others to be able to lean upon and get feedback or call you out call you out and go quit taking yourself so seriously.
Dale:Adults can be some some of the worst because they have determined long ago what the truth is. Mhmm. And if they were mistaken, they're blinded to that because they've embraced that for so long that they're not willing to re examine. And I I think you always have to be willing to listen. And there again, at some point in time, you don't have to embrace someone's belief that you know is clearly wrong, but you always have to be open to the possibility that you're an error, And so you you you have to examine that.
T.J.:I'm laughing, Dale, because, no, it's easier to double down.
Dale:Exactly. And and and that's had a detrimental impact upon the church in a lot of ways, I think, because we've gotten into the cultural wars and and let the let our personal preferences sometimes get in the way, let our political agendas come in and and influence our behavior in the church. And I think that's something that's dangerous because we need to be looking to the scripture. We sit there and say, well, you're not supposed to judge, and so we find some people trying to conform more to the world. But the church is not supposed to conform to the world.
Dale:It's supposed to be a light to the world, and you have people on both sides of the spectrum. Well, you know, we don't want these people. I I had a good friend that's deceased that he used to say, God loves the sinner but hates the sin. And that's true, but you could often hear that little undercurrent and thank God
T.J.:I
Dale:don't have that sin. You know, I I have the the normal sins that everybody deals with. Those people over there, their sin's a whole lot worse.
T.J.:I don't have your sin.
Dale:That's right.
T.J.:Yeah. Whatever that whatever that is.
Dale:Exactly. You know, it's like that. Now that's a sin. God can understand these sins that that because, you know, that that's what a lot of people struggle with. And and then you know?
Dale:But then you go to the other extreme. Oh, yeah. You're you're well don't worry about it. You know, we're not even gonna really call that a sin. You know?
Dale:It's it's like you you can't help it. That's and there's dangers on both sides.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:And everything because the church is is, you know, the Bible, it poses your sin and shows you your need for Jesus. And Jesus, you know, called for people to repent. And sometimes I think there's part of the church that's, like, accept people. I I just I'm part of the great banquet community. I was lay director and and my thing for the weekend was come as you are.
Dale:And I had one of the people that that gave a talk and I told him he had given a talk at a previous banquet, and he came in and he said, gentlemen, we're all broken. And that resonated with me because we are all broken. And so I I told him, I said, Brady, I said, you're doing the first talk of the weekend and I want you to make sure that you use that part. We are broken. And, unfortunately, I I think you can't go too far on the sin.
Dale:You you have to focus on god's grace, but it's not a cheap grace. So and that's something that I struggle with because I I I'm conservative in my politics. I'm conservative in my theology, but I have a lot of people a lot of problems with some people on the conservative side because they don't listen. But then I also have problems with people on the other side because sometimes I think there I think people get driven by the agendas, and we need to be focusing on God and and not on the worldly agenda. But on the other hand, the church does have to address the social injustice.
Dale:So I I clearly understand that part. And as I've gotten older, I've been working in the you asked about the time as a lawyer. I've seen a lot of the injustice, and people, you know, the greatest country in the world. And I we are privileged to live in this country, but I tend to try to call things as I really see them and try not to put on the blinders and try not to come. I I I don't come from a liberal perspective.
Dale:I come from a conservative perspective, but I look at the real flaws and and I the the sound bites that you hear in the political circles and everything because I was political science major and and everything. So I've and I used to do a little bit of work in some, judicial campaigns back in my earlier years.
T.J.:You're familiar with the jargon. Exactly. Okay. Alright.
Dale:And, and a few state representative races and everything. And it troubles me because the church needs to be solid and on solid theological footing and everything. It needs to be based on scripture, but we do have to address the concerns of people. We we can't just sit over here and use our little sound bites. We have to look at the problems in our society and the breakdowns, and and I think the church can be very instrumental and effectual in addressing those if they move in the right direction.
Dale:But I do sometimes worry that many of the churches are going to focus more on becoming politically correct, becoming part of the world instead of trying to change the world and and trying to show the world their need for Jesus.
T.J.:Yeah. I think our conversation exposes how beautiful the community of faith is, and at the same time, how messy the community of faith is. The human element of it from an individual to the community. And I think, we can be, to use a word that you used earlier, I think we can be, in need of healing and broken individually and collectively as well as a community of faith. You had talked about where the speaker really resonated with you in terms of, We Are Broken.
T.J.:Dale, where have you experienced brokenness? But and I don't wanna just lay in the negativity because I also wanna talk about where you've experienced healing as well.
Dale:I grew up in a Christian family. I was I started working I I sold Grit Newspapers when I was like 14 years old, and you probably didn't even know me to know what a Grit Newspaper was. It was in the back of Boys Life Magazine. So anybody out there that's in their sixties will know what that was. I cut yards when I was, you know, 14 years old.
Dale:I did the Grit Newspapers probably when I was 12 or 13. I started working at a grocery store when I was 16 years old, and all through high school, early years of college. And I was an assistant manager when I graduated from college, went to law school, and one summer went back and managed one of their stores for the summer as they were going through transitions. And they needed someone to come in and manage the store for that summer until they got someone permanent.
T.J.:Wow. What was the, you said it was a grocery store. Yeah. Well, what line was it?
Dale:It well, it started at it was Big Star, and then the one that I went in and worked that summer, they had changed the Big Star over to a Food Right.
T.J.:Okay. Alright.
Dale:And so they had just changed the the store. The it it was a family owned. They had about 5 or 5 or 6 stores, and the older generation, each brother had a store, and they had a conflict and they were the older generation was stepping down, and the younger generation was taking over the stores, and they had one store that they didn't have anyone to run. And so I was stepping in as they were changing over to food rights.
T.J.:Dale Dale Urby flies in from college to to bandage for the summer.
Dale:I I I was live I went to school at home at Memphis State back then, University of Memphis now. And so that summer, I I ran that store. And so that's that's how I got started at everything, and I was I was the kid that, when I was 8 years old, There was a bank 2 blocks from the house. My dad and I rolled pennies and nickels and quarters. And I took $8 and opened up a savings account at First Tennessee Bank when I was 8 years old.
T.J.:You could open up a bank account with $8 then?
Dale:Back then. Yeah.
T.J.:So Times have changed.
Dale:Times have changed a lot. And so when I I I was, you know, everybody changed jobs when they could make a quarter, an hour more or something. I stayed there at that job and everything. And when I left, the owner told me, he said, anytime you need a job, you've got one. Well, I I went to law school, and I worked for the first firm for about 10 years.
Dale:I was what I was started out as as an associate and became a non vested partner with the option to buy in. And what that basically meant was that I got certain perks and bonuses that the partners got. But I had no say as as far as what happened in in the firm because I had no ownership. And I had the option of buying into the firm. I think they offered me a 10% interest for about $40,000 and I could give them $40,000 or let them keep my bonuses.
Dale:And I could see that that firm was basically shrinking. Mhmm. There were 3 partners and 3 associates when I started it, and when they made that offer to me, there were basically the 4 of us. There were no associates, and that firm is basically no longer in existence. And so I could see that that firm was was basically longevity was not not looking in my favor.
Dale:And as I said, I actually thought about getting out, and so I went ended up going to work at this bankruptcy firm. And it's it's flattering when someone offers you a job and you did not go out and ask for it when they call you. And so, I I think we earlier we kind of covered that looked like a very promising future. Well, a lot of changes took place in the in the bankruptcy world that I was talking about, and I started watching Problems and my wife had gone back to school and so she had taken a job she had taken a job making less money. She was working as a teacher's assistant, So she could be off in the summers.
Dale:She'd gone back to school. And a lot of people would be like, well, you know, job's not going well. Go find another job. And the legal profession, at that point in my career, be easy to go to another firm, but they weren't look looking for someone to come do the work and and they would give you the business. Mhmm.
T.J.:They're starting they're starting over. Yeah. You're right.
Dale:The the, you know, they bring in the fresh ones out of law school, work them 50 55 hours a week and pay them base pay and and run them through the mill and and then they leave.
T.J.:And you'd already cut your teeth.
Dale:I'd already cut my teeth.
T.J.:Yeah.
Dale:So, you know, I'd done it twice. So I'd that wasn't very appealing. If I was going to do anything in the legal profession, I probably needed to start my own firm. Mhmm. Well, that takes some capital expenditures, and it also takes a lot of time.
Dale:And so, Trish had gone back to school, to get her degree and had planned to be a school teacher. Kids were younger, so the time and the money commitment didn't really make it feasible to go out and try to start my own practice. So, basically, just kinda stayed where I was, and the morale at the firm went down. The income did not go up, and later at some point it actually started to go down. And this part gets pretty emotional and and and very personal, but if someone out there if this helps anyone, it's it's part of my story.
Dale:And my wife, Trish, knows that I'm sharing this. We I was working for a bankruptcy firm. The income was going down. I was under a lot of pressure. It it was a miserable place to work.
Dale:When I would go to work and walk up the steps, my shoulders would slump, and I felt like I was carrying a £100 on my shoulders. I just I I was just weighted down. I was my faith I I was we were still over at the PCA church at Christ Presbyterian, and I was kinda walking the walk, but I really wasn't communicating with God. Mhmm. I I really was.
Dale:I I was a Christian. I was teaching Sunday school. I looked good. I smelled good, but I really was not walking with God.
T.J.:Did you know that then? I probably did,
Dale:but it didn't really hit me. I I had to have known it, but but I wasn't super aware of it, if that makes sense. Comfortable? I, you know, I was comfortable. I because, you know, I had this golden opportunity.
Dale:I I was it's like, okay, Gonna make good money, and and I was kind of driven wanting I I didn't want to be rich, but I wanted better than average lifestyle. And it's kinda like the Nike just do it, you know, the pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. Mhmm. I got this, you know, you can do this. You can be whatever you wanna be mentality.
Dale:And and so Christian, but wasn't walking with God. There was a license plate that was God as my co pilot at when I was growing up and sat there and and everybody thought that was really great. It's like, you don't want God to be your copilot. God's driving thing, not
T.J.:you.
Dale:Yeah. And and it's almost got it's like, you know, I got this God. And so I had to be aware, but I wasn't aware. It really didn't it didn't strike me. Mhmm.
Dale:And and so I was basically out there chasing the the American dream and everything and and, you know, wanting to be successful. And so Trish had gone back to school, and we ended up we're 1st Cumberland Presbyterian. And Trish was she could see me struggling, and she didn't feel like I could take any more pressure. And I basically let her just take over the finances. I knew less money was coming in.
Dale:I knew that we had more going out, but I didn't look at the checkbook. I I literally went for over 2 years, didn't even look at a bank statement or checkbook. You know, I knew things couldn't be good, but I was like, she'll get through with school, then I'll kind of address where I am and, you know, maybe I will find a firm. You know, Might start my own practice. I'd but we'll we'll look at options.
Dale:We gotta get her through school first.
T.J.:Right. Taking turns.
Dale:Right. Yeah. And so I just went day to day, and she had more than she could handle juggling things. And we ended up with so much debt that it took everything just to cash flow the debt. And if I'd looked, I would've seen it and but I didn't.
Dale:And so she ended up exhausting our savings. She then cashed in a retirement to replenish those savings and used that retirement to continue to cash flow the debt till it was exhausted.
T.J.:And and you guys hadn't talked about this?
Dale:She didn't tell me about that. And then all of a sudden, motor went out in a car, and we had about a $23100 repair bill. And I found out that, basically, the credit cards were matched and there was no money in the bank. And that's when I found out that she had cashed in the retirement. And the problem is when I did the taxes, I didn't know she'd done it, so I didn't report it to IRS.
Dale:And been a few years back. And so I ended up having to get with a friend and go and then to return, and all of a sudden, I had a bunch of credit cards that were maxed out in a 20 something $1,000 debt with IRS. And so someone at church invited me to the great banquet.
T.J.:Can we pause here for a moment? I'm gonna ask a couple questions. Sure.
T.J.:This is heavy stuff, Dale.
T.J.:You're feeling stressed through your career already and now there's another layer of family stress and economic, financial stress. How are you coping with this? How are you standing upright?
Dale:Totally by the grace of God. Totally a a I mean, I was broken. I was, but I just I I couldn't I just had to keep going. And, you know, I love my wife. I told her we would work through it, you know, give myself a pat on the back.
Dale:I was very generous. I've you know, I mean, we had some unpleasant conversations, but we didn't have fights. We didn't yell. We didn't scream. I told her we would work through it.
Dale:We'd be okay. And, you know, every once in a while when something would come up, a little bit of that resentment would come in. I'd be like, well, you know, but you got us into this, you know, but we'll get through it.
T.J.:Did you mean it? I mean, I I'm trying to put myself in your shoes, and I can't. But, I mean, we say things, and sometimes we don't mean it. Did you mean it Yeah. At that time?
Dale:Yeah. I I mean, you know, I I actually had few people who said, you know, they would probably end up getting divorced or something like that happened, and and was like, no. I've you know, I love her. We'll we'll work through this. And so it it gets even more emotional.
Dale:I had someone to invite me to the great banquet. And the
T.J.:Let let me pause you here, again. Sorry.
T.J.:No. That's fine.
T.J.:Yeah. Describe the bank, the great banquet, in a sentence or 2 in case someone doesn't know
Dale:The great
T.J.:like me.
Dale:The great banquet, there's is several faith walk movements. The Walk to Emmaus, the Cursillo. The Great Banquet is is basically a 3 day Christian retreat. We do one for the men and we do a weekend for the ladies. We do them twice a year, fall and spring.
Dale:And then we also have a youth version that saw Martin Luther King weekend in January, and in fact, my wife is the late director for this awakening that's coming up. And it is basically a 3 day retreat. A lot of people some people have heard about it, and they think there's sometimes they think it's secretive and everything. It's we try not to tell people a whole lot about the weekend because it's kinda like that Christmas present that you get on Christmas morning. When you're a kid, you tell your mom and dad what you want, and they get you what you want.
Dale:And and it's great, and you enjoy it, and it's fun, but then every once in a while, they get you something you weren't expecting, and you it's just it's special.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:And that's kind of how the banquet is. If it's not anything that's secretive, that's mystical, that it's just to try to keep people from coming in with certain expectations because the banquet means different things to different people. There's some people that enjoy the weekend, but the significance really doesn't happen until later they come back and actually serve on a team. For me, that weekend, the day of the great banquet, this kid who opened up a savings account when he was 8 years old was basically in a financial mess and sitting there in a colleague's office signing a bankruptcy petition, and it was the most humiliating day of my life, of my adult life. And so when I got to the banquet, there was a judge there that I'd known for 20 years, and neither one of us knew the other was gonna be there.
Dale:He was a guest. He introduced me to his pastor who just so happened to be a former attorney. And so that weekend, God put people there that when I was ready to sit down and and have a conversation about my burdens and and and open up, God puts people there. Was that
T.J.:the first time that you opened up?
Dale:I had a couple of friends that knew. Mhmm. But no one at the church knew, and and none of my none of my close Christian friends knew. And so when I went that weekend, I I was hungry. I was looking because I honestly felt like I was to a point where I've kind of like, god, you know, I don't care and and and I just feel disconnected.
Dale:I felt so disconnected from god, and I I realized over the years that, yeah, I'd become disconnected because I was just off kind of going to church and and teaching Sunday school, but not really paying attention to god not talking to god about my personal life, about when these things started happening, I I didn't really turn to God and go, okay. What do I need to do? And I honestly think that I was more focused on being the successful attorney, and god's kind of tested my faith. And I tell people I I've told people at this it's a banquet when I've given talks. There are people from all walks of life, some people doing very well, and I tell them, I hope you realize that it's by the grace of God.
Dale:I had a guest one weekend when I was serving on a team that basically when he found out I was a bankruptcy lawyer, and he knew nothing of my story. I had not shared at that banquet, but he found out I was bankruptcy lawyer, and he says, yeah. You guys make it too easy for people and everything. And my thoughts were, you know, people make mistakes, people mess up. And at this last banquet, my friend, Brady, he said his talk, he said we're broken.
Dale:And in my talks, I've told people look look at David and what he did with Bathsheba, and he was man after God's own heart. You know? Jesus was born in the house of David and you know, but he did one of the most despicable things. And so I I kind of had to reconcile myself to the I was looking basing my success and and how I was as a person based upon what I was doing in my career and based upon what the world thinks is successful. And had to stop, and and and I think god was trying to get me to understand that my very existence, my everyday reliance is totally upon him.
Dale:And, so I got drugged through the Briar patch.
T.J.:Yeah.
Dale:Got got some scrapes and everything. God God will give you I tell people, God will let some people just go off as if you do not want a relationship with God. It's like, okay. You can go. If you want a relationship and you really want it, but you don't feed and nourish that relationship, god will let you stray off the path and then when it's time, he'll bring you back, and you you may get beat up a little bit.
Dale:But that's part of God teaching you to rely on him.
T.J.:Yeah. Dale, I asked I asked if you had been or where you were broken. You're here before me now, so where did some of the healing take place and is taking place maybe in the in the present tense?
Dale:We're all broken, and we're always broken. Right. And and the healing process, and we we go through battles and scrapes in in life and get beat up, and we have peaks and valleys. And if we're always on the mountain top, we won't appreciate it. If we always stay in the valley, then we become, you know, where we're living with no sense of hope, and god doesn't want us there.
Dale:And so the healing started that weekend at the banquet, and that was 9 years ago. Because I I sat there, and I signed that bankruptcy petition, and that we can I I could feel god's grace? And I started beginning to feel like God was calling me to do something different. My wife wanted me to consider teaching, and I kept talking about it, but I kept resisting. And a lot of guys on the banquet probably got tired of hearing me talk about it and not do anything because I just left the law practice this last April.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:But it's been an ongoing long process, long journey, but I had been in the community for about two and a half years, and I was on a team, and I I was not originally asked to be on this particular team, but someone dropped.
T.J.:And they Team with the great banquet.
Dale:With the great banquet.
T.J.:Okay.
Dale:So I had been I had been on one team as a table leader, which you don't give any talks or anything. And when they asked me to come do a talk, people, you know, lawyer and everything, they thought I'd given talk at the banquet shortly, and I'm like, no. This is the first one.
T.J.:Okay.
Dale:And but I'd always said that, normally, probably someone, a lawyer would probably be Ashby on a team earlier and give a talk, but I always said that God puts that banquet together with a purpose because he put Larry there, and he put the people there, and you could just see God working to to address where I was right at that point in time. And this was two and a half, 3 years after I'd been through a banquet. I told you I'd pat myself on the shoulder, you know, I told my wife, you know, that it's okay. We'll work through this. As part of the process when you're doing a talk, you preview it to the team so that they can make sure you cover all the points you're taught supposed to cover and so that they can do any critiquing.
Dale:And I was like as I was going through, I I did the talk with my daughter, Megan, because she she was older at that point in time, and she she knew what we'd gone through. And my wife, Trish, was like, were you not gonna preview it for me? I said, no. You come the weekend and you hear it. And she's like, okay.
Dale:God had been working on me because I had let my wife carry that burden. And, as I said, when all those things were going on, I could've I I knew. Couldn't help but no. All I had to do was go look at the checkbook.
T.J.:So unconsciously But or consciously, you chose
Dale:I I I was under so much stress, and I did not want to deal with it. And so and she was dealing with it, and so I just let her deal with it.
T.J.:So you have 2 people struggling different ways, different areas of their lives under the same roof Mhmm. And hadn't talked about it.
Dale:Yep. And the thing is, when my wife and I communicate I mean, we've always had a good marriage, but she she just felt like if she put that if she hit me with one more thing, she was afraid I was just gonna, that I couldn't handle it. And I was so under stress from that firm that I couldn't handle it. And the weakness there was that I should have been going to God at that point in time and looking for the solution. And so but there again, it's part of part of God's story of of my life because Having gone through all that, it gives me an opportunity to share.
Dale:And as a bankruptcy attorney, I obviously did not share that story with clients as a general rule, but there were about 2 exceptions where you develop relationships with certain clients. And and I had 2 of them that were really struggling, and and one was a a gentleman. He was Christian. He and his wife were solid Christians, and he was just beating himself up. And so I shared that experience and everything because, you know, people are sitting there going, oh, you're successful.
Dale:You're an attorney. And I you know, David was a king. You know? And he still beat himself up, but I think it gave him some hope.
T.J.:Yeah. And you were able to be sympathetic, empathetic towards from firsthand experience towards people, a couple that was going through it. Yeah. I think I I think I broke your train of thought by asking you a question. You were you were telling me that you were preparing for a a presentation at the Great Banquet.
T.J.:You shared it with Megan, your eldest child, who was an adult. Right. And, you asked your wife to come along, but you didn't you didn't practice in front of her. She didn't get to see your script.
Dale:She she needed to hear it at the banquet. Okay. And our pastor, Jim Ratliff, was there serving breakfast. First talk Saturday morning, and he was there helping with breakfast. As I was walking through, I grabbed him and said, we we pray over speakers when they come in.
Dale:And I said, come with me. And as as I said, no one at church knew this story. And so
T.J.:You actually had a motion to go with come with me. So
Dale:there That's right. For those who
T.J.:are listening
Dale:reach out and grab
T.J.:this and
Dale:say, come on.
T.J.:So for those who are listening, there there was a motion
T.J.:that came with that. There was a
T.J.:grabbing of the air and a pulling of of your pastor, Dale. Go ahead.
Dale:So we went in and and prayed, and I went over to the conference room to deliver my talk. And there was a monitor over another room where they were able to go in and listen to the talk. And so this was Jim Ratliff's first time to hear this story, and I went to church and knew this story. And my wife, Trish, was there. And in that talk, God had been convicting me that, yeah, I told my wife we'd worked through it.
Dale:I'd pretty much forgiven her for what she had done. And the guy's like, you know, you forgave her and that's kinda like, you know, Adam forgiving Eve or something because we think of Eve taking the fruit, but the Bible is very clear that Adam was there. He knew what was going on and Adam was actually responsible for Eve. And I stood in front of a group of men, and I basically told them the story. And I told them that I'd failed my wife, that I'd put a burden on her, that she could not handle on her own, and we we have certain talks that are called grace talks, and this particular talk was not that was not primary subject of it.
Dale:But pastor Jim said he said, well, he said, I think we snuck in one extra grace talk. He said it actually had a chance to to display some of it and everything. And I was told that men in that room were were crying, that there were guys just all over the room, tears, and I had no idea. The Holy Spirit just kicked in, and I couldn't tell you anything of what was happening in that room. And as we finish the talk, we have someone that escorts us back over as we're prayed out.
Dale:And as we were walking out, he's like, are you okay? And I said, yeah. I just wanna see my wife. And so then I see my wife coming down the steps of the building across the way, and she met me on the walkway. And her first words were, now I know.
Dale:And what I had not realized is during that two and a half, 3 years, whatever it was, that while I had thought I was being gracious, and, you know, we'll work through it together. And and she heard those words. I had never stepped up and taken any of the responsibility, and I needed to. And at that point in time, there was you could just see a weight come off of her. And so the beauty of the banquet community like I said, some people, they have that moment when they go through.
Dale:Sometimes it's later. Sometimes they have multiple. I've been privileged to be able to share things because, as I said, that journey started 9 years ago, and I was feeling like I was being called to teach, and I've struggled and wrestled with it. Well, last spring, I was called to give a talk, and I had just finally left the law firm. Just actually about 2 weeks before the banquet.
T.J.:Alright. He walked out.
Dale:And I was able to give a talk and and tell people about the next step in that journey that I was working. I had been working as a sub for about, I guess, I'd left about a month before, and I'd been working as a sub for about 2 weeks when I went to that banquet. And so and then this last time I was lay director, and I was hoping to be able to share that I was a full time teacher, but God hasn't opened that door.
T.J.:Dale, let's go back for a moment and, the the time that Trish, your wife, had heard, how you perceived yourself in the relationship. Has it opened doors for conversation, dialogue? Did the 2 of you speak to each other differently? Has it bonded you together? It's You know I'm leading you with these questions.
T.J.:I don't mean to, but I'm kinda wondering.
Dale:I I think we're probably I I mean, she and I've probably we've never had any rocky patches. Like I said, even when that happened, it it was kinda like I mean, I I really did feel we'll work through this.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:So I don't know that it's really changed a whole lot of it other than she heard my words, but it was that definitive act as she says, now I know. And so that it was the communication. I I guess part of the growing of the relationship because I realized that I needed to take responsibility. And so that relationship's always growing, But I don't know that it really it it wasn't like it was suddenly an icebreaker. I we just keep maturing and and just keep we go through life together.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:And she, this last women's banquet, I I was out there and and actually listened in while she was giving her talk and everything, and she tells about how we met. I I was a young lawyer, and she was working at, bank. And
T.J.:You were opening up a savings account with $8, rolled in pennies and coins.
Dale:Actually, I was doing some work on on guardianship. We had our firm handle guardianship accounts.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Dale:And I had been coming in. I I was recently divorced from a very short term marriage when I was younger. And there was a young lady there that I was considering asking out and everything. And I I came in one day, and my wife called her Trish, but at that point in time, it was Pat. That was all Trish was always waiting on me, and I had no idea she wanted to go out with me.
Dale:And she actually told the girls that she was going to marry me.
T.J.:And You're missing the signals.
Dale:I I'm totally missing the signals. And so I came in, and she actually shortchanged me a dollar, made a check for a dollar too little. And nobody cares about the dollar except for this was in a probate court guardianship account, so I had to go get it corrected and everything. And so she was taking care of that. And the other young lady that I'd been considering asking out walked up and slid a note across the counter, and I looked at it.
Dale:It says, Pat thinks you're cute. She eats us lunch at 12. I looked at it, and I looked over at Pat, Trish, whichever, and looked back at the note, looked back at her, put note in my pocket, went back to the office, and at 4 o'clock that afternoon, when the bank closed, I was standing outside and asked her to lunch. And we went to lunch the next day, and we went out that weekend and went out the next weekend. And I was not looking to get serious about anybody.
Dale:And suddenly, she and I were dating, and I was nearing the end in later part of law school. And we made the decision that once I had finished law school and passed the bar that we were going to get married. So
T.J.:And then history.
Dale:That's that's right. So we've been married for 35 years.
T.J.:Wow. Dale, you said earlier that you're still seeking, searching for what you're gonna be when you grow up. Let's dream a little bit as we end get near to the end of this conversation. What do you wanna be if it was totally up to you?
Dale:I still have that passion to teach and I I told you those doors are not opening. And feel a little honest, I most recent sub experience has been a little bit rough. Been in a school that's a little bit tougher. And so when I was offered this other job, I kind of stepped back for a moment, and and I was considering that, but I was talking to someone last week, family member who teacher and and said, I think you need to put that on hold, and I think you need to keep pursuing the teaching. You felt like you were called to do this.
Dale:And then as we were talking about earlier, when you had guests, and she said basically in her prayer time, god, it's like, if that door doesn't open, that's not what I want you to do. Yeah. Would you be okay with that? And then all of a sudden, gee, got an interview. And I think it was 60 miles away.
Dale:It was part time. And, you know, it's it's like I'm substitute teaching and I kind of knew if I'd left the law firm earlier, I could have started some prep back in the
T.J.:spring. Yeah.
Dale:And and I actually was substitute teaching at the end of last school year, hoping that hoping that some of the doors would open, but the school where I was, that principal went to an elementary school, and you can't do an emergency you have to have a degree in elementary education to do elementary school. So I'd have to be in middle school or high school setting.
T.J.:Oh, okay.
Dale:And so it's I I've I'm content, and I you know, conventional wisdom is you shouldn't touch your retirement. That's for your retirement. I've had to tap into some 401 k money, and it's amazing because it fluctuates quite like the market does, but it has not gone down as much as I've had to take. Mhmm. And that was my security.
Dale:The last few months of when I before I left law practice, we were basically on a fee sharing arrangement, paid all the bills, and then divided what was left over. And I basically worked for about 4 months for 0. And I don't mean next to nothing. I mean, literally, there was no paycheck for about 4 months. And I think that's part of where god has been working on me, that my security is totally in him.
Dale:It's not in the job. It's not in the 401 k. It's it's like, do you trust me? You know? Are you are you really dependent?
Dale:If I and and, you know, I'm by no means want to be in Job's position. I'm not a Job. I don't have that, you know, I don't have that kind of strength, and I'm sure god knows it. But he's trying to teach me that that I have to just walk with him and and totally rely on him and that if I have a whole lot of money in the bank, I have a whole lot if I have enough to pay bills.
T.J.:And here I come along in this season of discernment and ask you if you'd be willing to share your faith journey. I've caught you in a pretty unique period of your faith.
Dale:And I'll be honest. When you first asked me, you know, I told you, let me pray about it, and I was very I'm like, yeah, you know, sounds great. And then you had traveled some and and had some things, so we had a little bit of a lull there. And I was actually kind of like, he hadn't called me and and you know, I'm not so sure how I I I you know, I'll do it, but I I'm not really sure I I want to Because that's where I was having the setbacks with the, you know, where I was substitute teaching and and considering maybe going to this other job. And and one of the concerns, the last job.
Dale:I didn't look for the last law firm. It and everything I was looking at, leaving the practice of law. And I don't want to just take a job for you know, because it's a job. And when I was told that, you know, I needed to I well, actually, it was my sister I was talking to. And she taught in Memphis City Schools for 20 something years.
Dale:And I mean, she's like, I think you need to put that on hold and focus on teaching for right now. And so when you did call me, I I did agree and everything as I started preparing for this. The excitement came back because there again, hey, I've kinda hit that low point where okay. God. I I was a little bit frustrated.
Dale:I wasn't sure that I really wanted to share because I wasn't happy 2 weeks ago. It was where I was on my on my faith walk. And but God keeps putting little reminders, and it's funny as I was leaving my last practice, there were days there was there were moments of tension and I was dreading going. Somebody would send me a video. And, I can't think of the guy, but it's a guy that does the Medea.
Dale:Oh,
T.J.:yeah. So Tyler Perry.
Dale:Yeah. Tyler Perry.
T.J.:Got it. Okay.
Dale:And you know, I watched it, and it's big volumes. And so the next day when I was dreading going, it's like, oh, okay. I was driving to work one day, and, you know, on the telephone phone. I I I'm just sitting there. It's like, okay.
Dale:I'm just I know this is gonna be a stressful day, and I'm gonna end up having hassles with in this closing out. It's just really a lot of tension. Telephone pole, Jesus loves you. I'm like, okay. And so, you know, and as I sat here and I prepared for this and I listened to some of your some of the podcast, I I got excited about this.
Dale:And, you know, I said said, if it touches the life of one person, if one person is struggling with anything like what I went through, I just want them to know that there's there's hope, and that's all we have is is hope.
T.J.:And it's better than solutions at times.
Dale:Because when we think we have the solution, I it's it you know, it better be as I tell the guys who are doing well, be be grateful because it's a gift from God. Mhmm. Because, you know, I see so many we live in a culture, you know, you're responsible for this. You can do this. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
Dale:You know, just go out and do it. And, yes, it it's important to have the work ethic. Things don't just but the thing is you can do all the things that are right according to society. I I mean, that job I took, if I pass that up, I would've had people that were going, what in the world are you thinking? I mean, because there were people that would've loved to have had that opportunity.
Dale:Now, you know, things changed. Yeah. But, I mean, it looked like the most I mean, it looked like a extremely smart move from a business standpoint, and and it may have been the right move at the time. But there again, I think it was just God kind of letting me. I I think maybe if I had been had the level of success that I was expecting, I would have been that businessman Christian that people looked up to because I was successful in the worldly sense, and I I don't think I don't think I would have the level of empathy.
Dale:I would've had empathy for people. I've always had compassion, but I view people much differently. And in my later years, while I need to get out of that practice, it still helped me as I looked at I I saw people on a different light.
T.J.:Yeah. I I don't wish for suffering upon anybody, including myself. But I can think back in in times where where I really suffered, and I I don't ever wanna repeat them, but it it did strengthen me and informed my perceptions, and informed future choices and my interactions with other human beings in ways that maybe, maybe the lack of those challenges may not have had. Again, I don't wish them upon anybody nor myself, but I can look back and and on some struggles and and, probably came out a better person before I had him. And, you know,
Dale:God is not sitting there wishing us to go through the struggles. He wishes for us to have that relationship, and so sometimes that's the only way He can get our attention is to let us go through those struggles because he does want you to know, you know, I'm God. And if you want that relationship, especially if you if you start out and and and claim yourself to be a Christian and say, God, you want that relationship, but then you kind of neglect it, god knows your heart. Mhmm. And I I firmly believe that there are some people that he he just lets go because it's like you don't really want that relationship.
Dale:And you may have all the success of the world, but you know what? That's, there there's a guy in the banquet community that had a shot at a professional athletic career and got injured. And he says, you know, if I'd gotten that, I wouldn't be what God wants me to be. And so I sometimes wonder, but I I know clearly that I was more caught up in the world and and valuing my worth from a worldly perspective and measuring my sense of accomplishment. And now I view myself much differently, and I really believe that this world's temporary.
Dale:This is not my this is not my eternal home, and how much money is in the bank, what kind of car I drive, where I'll live, you know, all the things that we think are important in today's society.
T.J.:Those measure differ different for you. Yeah. And I kinda gather, Dale, that it informs your future as well or how you perceive your future.
Dale:Very much so. Yeah. I I mean, it it makes me you know, don't get me wrong. Yeah. I I want nice things, but, you know, but but the thing is my my focus is, you know
T.J.:You look at it differently.
Dale:Right.
T.J.:In terms of priority.
Dale:And I and I don't I I try to think of how God sees me. Mhmm. And, you know, that's how the world views me. How, you know, from the social hierarchy, I'm not concerned about how the world sees me as far as, you know, treating people with compassion and having a Christian Christ like attitude towards people, that's much more important.
T.J.:Totally totally different. Dale, you have an amazing faith journey, and I caught you in You
Dale:caught me at a good time to share because because it's it's part of it and it it'll buy you know, it's I've learned to be still.
T.J.:Thank you for bringing me along. Thank you for sharing it, and I'm with you. I hope people get to hear hear about your faith, hear about your life experiences, and we'll be encouraged. Thank you, Dale. Appreciate it.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to The Cumberland Road. To support this podcast, subscribe on Apple, Google, and Spotify. After having the faith conversation with Dale Urby, I couldn't help but think about love, Love for God, love for another human being, and how love can overcome the many obstacles that we face in our lives. British philosopher Bertrand Russell wrote in his autobiography under the chapter Reflections on Suffering. He writes, I have sought love, first, because it brings ecstasy, ecstasy so great that I would often have sacrificed all the rest of my life for a few hours of this joy. I have sought it next because it relieves loneliness, the terrible loneliness in which one shivering consciousness looks over the rim of the world into the cold, unfathomable, lifeless abyss. I have sought it finally because in the union of love, I have seen in a mystical miniature the prefiguring vision of the heaven that the saints and the poets have imagined. This is what I sought. And though it might seem too good for human life, this is what, at last, I have found.
