Cumberland Road

T.J.: 00:03

You're listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. Reverend Daniel Barclay is in his 12th year of ministry at the Gaston Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Alabama. In our conversation, Daniel talks about his call into ministry, and we spend some time on the continued question of how to live out that call. One of the major and key themes Daniel keeps drawing from was the church family. A family that extends beyond the shared last names into a kinship and a bond found in the faith community. It is in this family that Daniel finds his purpose and his joy among a people he can serve alongside with. Enjoy this faith journey of Daniel Barclay.

T.J.: 01:11

Daniel, we were talking off mic, and one of your earlier careers was, and is an electrician. You were giving me some advice. What is it about the electricity and that field that first attracted you to it? I'm pretty limited. If you ask me to wire a building, you're asking the wrong person.

Daniel: 01:37

Yeah. It was just something, that kinda peaked my interest, I guess, toward the end of high school. I was in ag classes there at high school and kind of figured out I I wasn't gonna go to college. You know, I was young punk, sick of school, that kind of thing. So I ended up going to to to vocational school, there in Paducah, and and chose electricity.

Daniel: 02:03

It was just something that was an interest and just, it seemed interesting, and I I love to work with my hands. And so that provided an opportunity to do that. I think I don't remember now if I even finished my trade school, but I ended up getting hired on at, I made mobile homes, in Benton. And I can't call the name of the place now, but got to wire these double wide mobile homes. So they just had a little line, and you wire one section you had particular and that was that was fun.

Daniel: 02:43

And then got into the union. And so then went into the more commercial and and learning all of those kind of things. So worked a lot in the hospital there in Paducah, worked in some power plants out at, the nuclear plant there in Paducah, the steam plant across the river. So those are interesting places to be in, and and to learn. But, yeah, I just I love it anytime I walk into a building, and I still do to this day.

Daniel: 03:11

First thing you do is you you look up, especially if it's those things that have exposed ceilings And just look at the work. Look at the the conduit runs and that kind of thing, and, I'd have done it this way or that looks awesome, or it makes you recall some things that that you had done, in your career. And just to know, you know, a normal person walks in and and sees a plug on the wall or sees a light switch or sees, but to know what's all behind the walls, is pretty cool to me. And just to imagine, well, this this is how those wires are run and that creative aspect. I'm not I don't consider myself a creative person, but that's, I guess, that's an expression of creativity is to be able to do that.

Daniel: 03:59

And so I I loved being an electrician. Really did. And I I would still be doing it, I guess. I still tinker with it from time to time. I get, I've got to change out the ballast and a lot of the lights here at church when they go bad, and, we got this not working.

Daniel: 04:17

What is you know? So I get to fix those kind of things, as part of ministry now, rather than the vocation of, of an electrician. So, yeah, it's just something that kinda piqued my interest and, I've really enjoyed doing. And I, like I said, I would still enjoy doing it except for, the Lord called me to do something else.

T.J.: 04:42

Alright. We'll get into that in a minute. I wanted to ask you. You said something that was interesting. Are you able to kind of like observe maybe with the placement of, the outputs and even how the wiring is run?

T.J.: 04:56

Does that say something about the electrician or the architecture of the building? Because I that's not something that I pay any attention to. Is there a level of creativity? Is it practicality? What is it that you see when you look in a building

Daniel: 05:12

at home? You can see yeah. Some of it you see that I don't know. I guess it goes to the training that people have had or the just the pride that you take in the work that you do, especially those things that are gonna be seen. But even in those things that are unseen, you know, you you, one that takes pride in their work wants wants all those bins to be perfect, and wants everything to line up and spaced correctly and because those things show, and I guess maybe normal people don't look at that kind of stuff, but it stands out.

Daniel: 05:45

You know, when something's out of place, you can you can tell. Mhmm. When something's not done correctly, it it just looks funny. And so to be able to look at things and, to say, well, I'd I'd have done it this way or I'd done it that way, Just a part of taking pride in in what you do and who you are, I guess. It says a lot about the person if you just throw it stuff in willy nilly or, you know, you'd actually take pride in what you do.

T.J.: 06:14

Yeah. So if there's an electrical outlet right next to the light switch, there probably wasn't a lot of pride put into that.

Daniel: 06:24

It just depends. Sometimes sometimes, like you say, it is the architect or the, you know, the engineer that lays those things out and and but sometimes it's just laziness. Whatever whatever, you you know, you can kinda take your pick.

T.J.: 06:39

Yeah. Is

Daniel: 06:39

it practical or is it lazy?

T.J.: 06:43

Yeah. I don't have that eye, for, the outlet's light switches, the electrical nature. I just look at it from a expectation point of view, and I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but I just want to be able for it to to work, work properly, work consistently. Yeah. That's the only time I think

Daniel: 07:05

of the electricity. Expectations are when you when you go to that light switch, I wanna flip it and the light come on.

T.J.: 07:12

That's right.

Daniel: 07:12

That's what it's supposed to do. And so to be able to but the cool thing is is to be able to figure out, well, it didn't come on. Why didn't it? And then to be able to trace that down and fix those kind of things is, something I still enjoy doing. It's it gets frustrating at times because sometimes you can't really figure it out.

Daniel: 07:34

But I'm one of those people that I I I wanna be hands on, and I wanna know how it works. And and if I can't figure it out, I'm kicking myself for days, you know, laying there in the night trying to figure something running in my head. I'll do this as soon as I get over there, you know, to try to figure it out, but, I don't know. Maybe that says more about me than

T.J.: 07:58

Well, I I believe there's some parallels there, because if you look at it from a theological point of view, you know, the puzzles of the faith, you know, the questions and the mysteries of the faith and be able to kinda work on those in your brain. There is probably some similarities in terms of troubleshooting, you know, electrical work because essentially, you're trying to follow the thread or the wire, you know, from point a to point b. How did we get here? What is the break? You know, what was the thought process?

T.J.: 08:34

Metaphorically, at least, I would say that there is some parallels between theological thinking and the mind of an electrician.

Daniel: 08:44

Very well could be. Yeah. Jesus said we are the light of the world. Right? So Yeah.

Daniel: 08:54

Go let your light shine before men.

T.J.: 08:56

That's right. Alright. But you have to have a little boost to provide light.

Daniel: 09:03

That's right. That's right. The holy spirit power.

T.J.: 09:07

That's right. Daniel, did you grow up in the Paducah, Kentucky area? Is that a place that you would call home?

Daniel: 09:15

Born and raised in Paducah, just outside of it anyway. New Hope Cumberland Presbyterian Church, my home church. Yeah. It's a little old country church. I think I'm something like 6 generations in that church, 6 or 7, something, you know, as far back as they could kinda trace.

Daniel: 09:34

So it's one of the older congregations there. So, but, yeah, that's that's my hometown. Lived there until the Lord said go and didn't wanna go, but, you try to do all those things that well, I don't wanna go here. I don't wanna and the lord says, yeah. You will.

Daniel: 09:52

So you you have to be, willing to do what God says. And so that's we've kinda journeyed south since then, but, that's that's home, and I always will be, I suppose.

T.J.: 10:04

So what's it like growing up in just the one church? And and then having that family history, not everybody is able to to kind of say that, but to be able to grow up and run through the hallways of the church or the sanctuary and know where the rocks are located around the, you know, the property and the trees to hide behind and and, the fond memories of of Sunday school teachers and Vacation Bible School teachers. There's a richness there. Talk more about that in terms of the the importance of growing up in in essentially a real Christian family, a covenant family, a church family.

Daniel: 10:54

Yeah. Well, that's it's I guess, began with my my parents, and, they're active, and and and we were there. Anytime the doors were open, we were there. And so, yeah, it got me thinking running around the halls of the church. New Hope has a a basement.

Daniel: 11:13

And and sometimes it gets water in it or used to kind of maybe get floody or musty or so I just as a kid, that's a dark, dank, kinda almost scary place because it's a, you know, 150 year old building or whatever it is. And so we as kids, you run all around the rooms and whatnot and, but even you discover things like there's a there used to be, I don't know if it still is, a a headstone of somebody that got purchased and stored under the church and then never got placed out in to the cemetery. But just to know that that's in that little crawl space there. I can picture it right now where it is. It's scary and then thrilling to kids to be able to run around and Yeah.

Daniel: 12:02

Discover those kind of things at church.

T.J.: 12:05

Yeah. And

Daniel: 12:06

Cemetery across the road. And, and it's I mean, that that was my family church. Aunts, uncles, extended family, grandparents' family, you know, that's there. So it's it's just family, and and they still are. I don't, you know, a lot of those have passed on, but even the people that weren't blood related, they're still your family because that's that's just what a church is.

Daniel: 12:31

And so I know that, you know, there's there's people there at home I can I can call on today? I hadn't seen them in 20 years, but, you know, they're they're they're family because that's what I grew up in as as part of that faith family, where everybody kinda you're pulling in the same direction. You know? Help help these kids, come into their own faith and, and just repeat that generation after generation.

T.J.: 13:00

Yeah. I don't think a headstone is something that you would just tuck up underneath your arm and pull back out of a crawl space and carry it up the stairs back outside. That may be that may have been there a long time and it may be there yet for even a longer time. But there is sort of a mystery, you know, of of our church, structures and I think I think that, small children don't, they don't miss that. They know, you know, that there's great places to hide and play games.

T.J.: 13:32

And, I think for for those who come to the faith later, oh, and part of the covenant community later, you know, there's things there that could be missed, you know, to be able to grow up in an environment that provides accountability and love at the same time. There's something unique to that.

Daniel: 13:55

Absolutely.

T.J.: 13:58

Alright, Daniel. So we've been talking about being at New Hope and and you growing up in Paducah. So the little Daniel, the young Daniel, what were you dreaming about being as you, were to become an adult? What did you want to be?

Daniel: 14:13

Oh, I'm I should I should be playing in Major League Baseball right now. That was that was my goal. Unfortunately, somebody said it the other day. All I liked was athletic ability. I think that was my only drawback from being able to go to the pros.

Daniel: 14:34

But that you know, just a typical kid, not thinking of of serious things, actually, but, you know, be the be the baseball player, star, or, you know, whatever. Those those kind of things through my head. Like I said, even even in the teenage years, I don't I don't know that I really ever had a direction of thinking this is what I'm supposed to do or gonna do. Just kinda, oh, this is interesting, so I'll go that way. And now, well, should I have done this or should I have done that?

Daniel: 15:08

You look back and and wonder those kind of things. But, even if I as I've gotten in the ministry and, you know, going to to Bethel, you know, I was my one goal was to to get that piece of paper to say that I could go on to MTS and then get that piece of paper to say that I could be ordained. You know? That's kind of the my approach and, kinda regret some of that now because, you know, with with at least for Bethel, you know, maybe I could have gotten teaching degree or, you know, math degrees. Some of those things that were interesting to me, but that really wasn't on my mind at the moment.

Daniel: 15:49

I, I took a lot of biblical classes because that that was what I was going into and one very interesting and don't regret that at all. But, you know, I I know and understand as as part of our church, I'm blessed here at this church, to be able to to to be full time, but there's a lot of places that aren't. And so what do you have, that you can turn back to as kind of a bivocational work that that you would do. So, you know, I've I'm pretty involved in our school system here now as a substitute teacher, and I guess I've done that my whole time in ministry wherever we've been, kinda been in in the school. And so there's there's days that I've kinda wished that I I had pursued some kind of a teaching degree, you know, so that I could be there as well.

Daniel: 16:43

But there's a lot of ministry that can happen even as somebody that pops in and pops out as a substitute or help coach or do you know just be a presence there for some of these kids that maybe not their mean teacher or whatever that they're afraid of, but you can be the the fun substitute even though I'm probably not. But, they got it just to pop in every once in a while and just hope to provide some, joy and happiness to to these kids that you know, a lot of them don't get to have that. So I really see it as part of an extension of of the ministry of of the church, and church allows me to do that through the week to go and to be part of the school, and, I love to do that. So but, yeah, kinda looking young Daniel probably never never dreamed of being where old Daniel is today.

T.J.: 17:41

Yeah. They're it's quite an honor to be able to work and, impact young people's lives, even if it is substitute teaching. Because you have the opportunity. You've got 6 to 8 hours a day to be able to to, be an example, yeah, help with education, and just sort of model, model, hey, when days are bad, it's not the end of the world, and when days are good, absorb it while they're there, you know. And

Daniel: 18:22

Yeah.

T.J.: 18:22

And we can do that with, well, we can do it with words, but we can do it with our actions as well. Daniel, I had a similar path. I had a wise person when I was at in college, in terms of and for my call to ministry, gave wise and sage advice of, you know, you ought to get a teaching degree while you're at college and as you're pursuing, you know, you're called to ministry. And I ignored that wise advice. And there's been times in my my adult vocations and career and pathways where I wish that I wasn't so driven, probably because of sports a little bit, but also call to ministry, to go fast, fast, fast, to accomplish, accomplish, achieve, achieve, to get out there and to do, what I understood as the mission, God's mission.

T.J.: 19:20

And I didn't savor necessarily those moments of educational opportunities. I did what was needed, tried to do well, but I didn't really live in it, and it wasn't until after I was done with school that that I I went back and started to live in in the literature and, the scriptures and in the in the field that I was studying in. So I hear you on that, and I do. I think it comes from the, partly, comes from the athletic background of, earn this, accomplish this.

Daniel: 19:59

Yeah. This this is the goal that you have set. Now do what do whatever it takes to achieve that goal.

T.J.: 20:06

Yeah.

Daniel: 20:06

I I I like what you said there because that's that was my mindset too. Okay. God's called me to to preach. I'm on so I've gotta get a, b, and c done so I can go do that. Yeah.

Daniel: 20:19

Yeah. You do you're preaching while you're doing those things, but that's the ultimate. And then you get on the other side of it, and there's life. And Yeah. Life is not so, laid straightforward and and laid out like that.

Daniel: 20:33

Right?

T.J.: 20:34

Right.

Daniel: 20:35

Then you're involved in other people's lives, and you're walking in the midst of those things where you do have to slow down and just, as you said, savor the moment of those those times that you get to share with people. You're you're with people in their most intimate and Mhmm. You know, challenging times, of their lives. And so you you can't always push and rush to, an end, like, you would with a a college degree or what you know, those kind of things. You gotta, like you said, sit sit back and savor that moment that you're in.

T.J.: 21:15

Yeah. I old old TJ would be ignored by young TJ. Well, and part of it was, and maybe, Daniel, you can speak speak to this, is, you know, I was so excited to embark on ministry and and all of its benefits, you know, the word and the sacraments. And so the educational process was fun and certainly helpful, but I wanted to get through that so that I could fulfill the calling that was placed upon me. And I'm glad I had that passion, still do.

T.J.: 21:53

I'm glad I had that excitement, still do, but I do think it provided where I missed some opportunities of going, this is really, really a cool experience. Yeah. And if you blink, you're gonna miss it. I don't know if I could hear that, but looking back and go, I should have savored that a little bit more.

Daniel: 22:17

Yeah. I got to thinking that, you know, so coming the call to ministry was, you know, as as later on wasn't something I felt as a teenager, at least that I understood to be that, you know, maybe the Lord was pulling in that direction and, just wasn't bright enough to to see that. And I certainly see that, you know, later on in in my journey. But so coming into ministry was, you know, a second career, I guess, you'd call it. Mhmm.

Daniel: 22:48

And so going to to Bethel was a second career. It was we didn't, went to vocational school at has had a high school to be to go into the trades. So I had to go and get that degree. So we're there as as parents, and and here you're here with 18 year old kids now. And they're looking at you even though we're not that much older than them at the time.

Daniel: 23:10

We're the old people sitting in their classes. But we we did get to, you know, include them as our in our family as well. So Mhmm. You know, bring these 18 year old kids who are away from home and let them come to our house and have supper 1 night or or whatever and kinda be mom and dad to them. And some of them, can look at you and consider that way.

Daniel: 23:33

So you you cherish those moments as well even though it's, like, tried to rush through and get as quick as possible because the goal was God caught me into ministry. And I fought it for a long time, but then I finally said, okay. Now I'm all in on it now. So let me let me go do the steps I'm supposed to do too. But you if in that mindset, you kinda miss the beauty of where you're in and along that journey as well, I guess.

Daniel: 24:02

So at times, we were bright enough to to figure that out to stop and cherish those moments. But other times, you know, as like I said, rush through, rather than than just enjoying what what was what the Lord was bringing us to in that moment.

T.J.: 24:20

When you were growing up in the New Hope Church, was there a moment, you know, had several guests on Cumberland Road, and for some, there's been kind of like, the relationship with God through Jesus Christ has almost been osmosis because you're in the covenant community your entire life. What was your experience like? Did you had have a an epiphany moment, a lightning bolt experience, or was yours just through, as you came into the faith, more of an osmosis moment where it was just like, yes. I've been engrafted into this family, and now I just want to profess what I've been believing and taught and living all along. How did Yeah.

T.J.: 25:12

What did that look like for you, Daniel?

Daniel: 25:15

Almost kind of a a little bit of both, I think. Mhmm. Certainly, there growing up, you know, we had wonderful Sunday school teachers and and pastors. I was just trying to I was thinking of some brother Rudolph. I don't remember his first name because I was young, but I do remember him jiggling his keys and his change in his pocket as he preached.

Daniel: 25:37

And he was, you know, he he came after you preaching. Very, very passionate in his preaching. And, remember that as a young child and then brother Wayne Wyman, there ministering, he was, there. I think on an interim basis, he pretty well retired by that point, but still go into these churches who were in between pastors. And, it was while he was there that I had that epiphany moment, I guess you'd say.

Daniel: 26:06

There's a couple of events I remember, going to church camps, certainly coming back from a church camp. You know, you got brother John Shelton, Frank McCollum who just passed away not long ago, and, David Laneeve and some of those guys that were there pouring into the ministry of these camps and young people. And so hearing that message, that gospel message at camp and coming back and knowing that I needed that. You know? This is what I've been taught, and but I needed to profess that.

Daniel: 26:38

Mhmm. And then I remember another moment that's kind of away from the church, but, you know, with my parents. We're in a hotel room somewhere, watching, just TVs on whatever it was, the power team. Do you remember the power team, that, you know, they would bend bars of steel or tear phone books in half and but they'd share the gospel as part of that. Right?

Daniel: 27:03

And so that was on one day just mindlessly watching, and just knowing and hearing that gospel message again and being there with my mom and being able to say you know, profess that need of Christ and Mhmm. Let her and she walked me through that. So but that's all part of the the faith family. As you said, you you grow up in it. You're immersed in it, and it's ingrained into you as well by your parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles and Sunday school teachers and, that just pour into you.

Daniel: 27:36

And then they get the joy of seeing the fruit of their labor, I guess you'd call it there as, as they work to be those examples that we're called to be. So cherish moment there in church. Brother Johnny Watson came shortly after that. Brother got to marry his daughter. That's pretty cool while they were, there with us.

Daniel: 28:00

But, you know, he was there, I guess, during those formative years of, early teen teenage years. So still consider him a wonderful mentor, and certainly kinda related now through Mary as well. Brother, Jeff Biggs came later on as trying to figure out a a call into ministry and work through that. And, you know, the Lord works in mysterious ways, I guess, is is how it said, but, you know, the the we had gone to my wife's church, after we had married. We lived closer to it, so we went there.

Daniel: 28:41

But then, after 4 or 5 years, we we felt a calling to come back to my home church, which was it was a commitment. It's 45 minute drive to church every day, every time, you know, rather than 10 to the to her church. But, you know, we've really felt the Lord calling us back there, and then so we obeyed that and even maybe not understanding fully what was going on, then, okay, will you be a Sunday school teacher? Well, I'm I'm not a teacher. I'm I'm an electrician.

Daniel: 29:13

But But I'll teach Sunday school, so I'm teaching these 1st through 3rd graders and, you know, just sit down and and share the gospel with them, right, through these stories of the bible. Okay. Well, the the Lord's called me to that. That's great. Well, then eventually being called as an elder of the church and, even pretty young, but you don't call young people to be elders.

Daniel: 29:37

Right? But, you know, looking back, it's it's the lord leading, through that experience the whole time. And getting to go with, I had a good group of of friends, men my age and a little older that we'd go to promise keepers events and those kind of things together. And, it was it was at one of those that we were in Saint Louis, Missouri, where they play hockey, in that stadium there. Sitting there, I can still see it.

Daniel: 30:11

I could probably take you to the seat. We were up at the very top of this thing, and had this little booklet, you know, the and the guy's preaching and hearing a lot of good word. But one of those questions is, what do you feel God calling you to do? Mhmm. And we certainly know there's God calls lots of people to do lots of different things.

Daniel: 30:33

Mhmm. But it was almost as if someone took my hand and wrote preach. Mhmm. Oh, that's not me. I I'm not a preacher.

Daniel: 30:43

I don't like people. Why am I being called into ministry? But, you know, I think we're there. It was kind of the first time admitting to myself that this is where the Lord was leading me. And it still took me, you know, several more months before I finally broke down, told my wife, what I was feeling, what I was dealing with, and her response is, well, it's about time.

Daniel: 31:13

And I don't know that she knew particularly that I was being called in to preach, but she knew God was dealing with my heart

T.J.: 31:21

Mhmm.

Daniel: 31:22

With something because that's what spouses do. You know? Right? They know their they know their spouses. So, she and my sister-in-law, you know, had been praying relentlessly for me to figure out what God was calling me to.

T.J.: 31:40

Did you know that? Did you know they were praying for you?

Daniel: 31:43

No. Not not till after the fact. And so that's that's something special that I'll cherish as well. They were right there with me trying to figure out this call in the ministry and finally just letting go and saying, okay, god. Yes.

Daniel: 32:05

And what does that look like now? And so

T.J.: 32:09

That's a big question.

Daniel: 32:10

An interesting journey. Yeah. What's what's it look like now? And so, there are I I was a full time electrician, loved what I did, but, Jeff Biggs, when I when I went to tell him what God was what I was dealing with and what God was I think God's called me to, he said, if you can do anything else with your life and be happy, do that. And I've cherished that, that little piece of advice because I couldn't.

Daniel: 32:46

Yeah. Even though I loved my job, it wasn't fulfilling. Right? I loved being a father and a husband, but that's not that's not fulfilling because our ultimate identity and fulfillment comes in Christ. And so, this is what he was calling me to, and I still don't understand it even today.

Daniel: 33:08

I'm no I'm no great speaker, stutter and stammer, and don't know what I'm doing, But yet God is God calls people like that all the time. Right? Because it's in his power, not in ours. So, it that he can do to us, how he sees fit despite our flaws and our failures.

T.J.: 33:30

It's hard to articulate a calling a calling not just into ministry of the word and sacrament, but a calling to other aspects of ministry. For those who know or are observers from the outside, they see, oh, here's this individual with a family, a secure job, you know, grown up in the in the vicinity. You know, all these little checkboxes that would be perceived as in having it together or pointing towards contentment. And but inside, there's another layer or level of contentment and pulls. We I think we feel pulls.

T.J.: 34:13

And for many people, that pulling is into ministry. And then but how do you describe that to somebody who who, would have difficulty understanding? And especially if we don't have the right words to articulate it.

Daniel: 34:30

Yeah.

T.J.: 34:32

So what a big leap. So let's talk about the leap from relocating from the Paducah, Kentucky area into West Tennessee, in the McKenzie, Tennessee area, Carroll County.

Daniel: 34:47

Well, that's, that's another blessing of God because, like I said, I I'm an electrician, but now, came under the care of of Covenant Presbyterian there, in that. You know, God God give a I remember coming home. I was on midnight, and the Lord gave me a a sermon. I couldn't go to sleep that I come home at 3 o'clock in the morning or whatever. Couldn't go to sleep.

Daniel: 35:17

I had this on my arse. I had to get out and, get up and write this message that God, had given me. And so, a few months later, we're without a pastor, and and I'm given the opportunity as an elder to to fill the pulpit that day. Okay. Well, that's done and over.

Daniel: 35:34

You know? But then that kind of thing just kept happening, as as the Lord kept pushing and calling and and so admitting that. So when we finally do admit that, you know, and and go all in to this is what God's calling to us, so well, now I've gotta go to gotta go to college, get my degree so I can go to seminary because I didn't have that. So came and visited Bethel, and, you know, they're they're great with ministerial candidates that Mhmm. They provide scholarship for you to attend.

Daniel: 36:07

So there's you know, wouldn't been able to do that without that. And so that's God has lined that up. Well, if we're gonna go to Bethel, I don't wanna drive an hour and a half or 2 hours back and forth to class every day of the week. So what what are we gonna do? Well, my my dad had just died.

Daniel: 36:28

We we buried him on June 30, 2005. And, that was the day he passed away, anyway. And a week later, Wendell Ordway showed up at at my mother's house. We were still there with her. And he said, well, I've got a I don't know why the Lord has brought me here, but there's a little church in in Trenton, Tennessee that they need a pastor.

Daniel: 36:54

Mhmm. And I think he'd be a good fit. I'm just now figuring out this call into ministry. Right? But, so we went down there, and and had a trial sermon, And somehow they said, this okay.

Daniel: 37:10

This will be tolerable. And, so so right there, God provided, a a an income for our family

T.J.: 37:22

Mhmm.

Daniel: 37:24

And provided a house. And I I was telling you earlier that it's the most beautiful manse I've ever seen. It's it's huge. It's 2 stories and, 4 bedrooms, and, they added a little bathroom upstairs for our kids to use. And so, just a beautiful church, beautiful setting, and beautiful people, and God provided all that for us, there when we're trying to figure out, okay.

Daniel: 37:48

We're gonna go to school, but what are we gonna do? How are we gonna earn our our we're looking at being, you know, RAs at the in a dorm room and having 3 kids in a dorm room. You know? Whatever it'll take. But but God provided that.

Daniel: 38:02

And so David, Davidson chapel will be always cherished in in our hearts as, they they took us in and and let me preach for it. And like I said, they tolerated that for, while while I went through Bethel and and MTS, and then the Lord called us to come on down to to Gadsden here. But, yeah, God has just provided it. Every time we think we have an objection, there God is. So we'll we'll hear.

Daniel: 38:36

Here's the answer to your objection. Right? I think back to to to Moses and the scriptures and God calling him there at the verdict. Well, what about this? Well, I well and God had an answer every at every step.

Daniel: 38:49

And, you know, that was my experience as well coming into ministry.

T.J.: 38:55

You've been serving the Gadsden Cumberland Presbyterian Church since you've been ordained.

Daniel: 39:01

Yes.

T.J.: 39:02

And so you're we're looking at 12 plus years. Daniel, what do you think the benefits are for long time pastorate, from your perspective as a minister, but also from the perspective of the congregation.

Daniel: 39:21

Well, being here is just I'm I'm part of this family. You know, we talked about my my home church is is family. This this church is family, and they've included us in into their family, incorporated us into their family. And so, you know, we've got 20 grandmothers out there for our kids and moms and dads for us. And Yeah.

Daniel: 39:50

You know, they they invite you in, take you in. And so in that in in being here a longer time, you get to journey with people. It's more than just, okay. We're gonna preach and and be here a couple years and move on. You're now part of their lives, and they're part of our life.

Daniel: 40:12

So that's that's special, to have people invite you into their most intimate moments and challenging moments, it allows them just to be able to walk through that with them. You get to know know your people more. And so as the Lord continues to to speak and and give messages, you're speaking to your own family out there. Right?

T.J.: 40:38

Yeah.

Daniel: 40:39

As we encourage to go out and then to to share this gospel message with, our community and world around us. It's it's definitely a a benefit of of being here 12 years now, and it's just flown by. And, you know, we've had people reach out. Would you be interested in going here or there? This church needs somebody.

Daniel: 41:05

And my answer has been every time, I just don't think god's done with us here yet. This is God's still moving and working, and say all that, and they may, at the next session meeting, say you got 30 days to get out of here. I don't know. Like I said, they're they're they're tolerating poor preaching as well. But, somehow, we we still stick together because because there is that family aspect.

Daniel: 41:33

And that's what the crumbling church is to me. It's it's family. I I love going to to general assembly whether I'm a commissioner or not just to go and to to see you and, you know, you see all these people that are your brothers and sisters in Christ from around the world. And, you know, we if you find yourself in Colombia for some reason and need somewhere to go, we got people we can reach out to. You know?

Daniel: 42:01

In Japan and all is just crazy wherever we are in in the United States. No no one would hesitate to bring you in to to to house you, to feed you, whatever it is, because we're family. That's the beautiful thing about about our denomination and our church, one of the things I love most about it.

T.J.: 42:27

I think about that sometimes, Daniel. I I travel a lot. And when I'm on the road, I think about, you know, if something happened to me here or the car that I'm driving or if I'm stuck in the airport, there may be a Cumberland Presbyterian who knows who may live in that town or in that area or knows of someone that, you know, is like, if I ever really did not want to sleep on the floor of an airport or or if, you know, a car was truly, truly, like, non functioning, there probably is somebody directly or through somebody that would fling open their doors or sit on the side of the road with me or or, spend some time with me just to pass, you know, for a long layover on an at a airport or a delay. And that's really comforting for me, you know, to be able to know that there is people out there who maybe I haven't even met yet, or maybe you have and they've been tolerating me, but tolerating me enough to be able to open up their home or share their time with me. Right.

T.J.: 43:44

That's a that's unique, and I I think that's one of our many unique features even for a smaller denomination. Mhmm. Not we're not quite as small as I think we make ourselves out to be and certainly have big hearts.

Daniel: 44:02

Absolutely.

T.J.: 44:05

You have the blessing to be able to, serve a church full time, and then you are also very active in the school system. So let's talk about the opportunities that you have to impact people's lives, and and by proxy, you are sharing your faith, and you're sharing your faith with people who are seeking, their identity. They're exploring. They're just trying to figure out who they are and how they fit into this world. What's that like for you, Daniel?

T.J.: 44:43

And and also describe the sport that you're connected with and the opportunity to substitute from regularly and from time to time.

Daniel: 44:52

Yeah. I look at it as an extension of of my ministry. You know, it's it's putting boots on the ground, as you'd say, and going out into the community and and serving and just being a part of of the community where you are, not not hiding behind a desk all day and wonder who well, who's the preacher there? Well, they they know not because of anything, you know, wonderful sermons or whatever, but it's because I'm just there and present and and a part of, part of that community. And so that's what I get to do substituting, and there's been times that I think we had first talked to couple years ago.

Daniel: 45:36

Well, at that time, I was filling in a whole semester for, for somebody that was on maternity leave. So and I got to be there with those kids every day, and we got to read Romeo and Juliet together. How fun is that? But so, but but just to be there and be be a constant presence in their lives when when you know that there's some that just they come to school to get away from the chaos, you know, of of home and home life. And, you know, there's lots of kids that have have the blessing of both parents at home and and are loved and are cherished, but there's, that many more that, you know, single parent homes are bouncing back and forth between homes or or whatever.

Daniel: 46:25

And so you get to be a just a a a light that that shines in their life for for just a a brief moment. We have a little moment of silence before, as the day begins there at school. You know? You say the pledge. You have a moment of silence.

Daniel: 46:40

But my prayer every time during that is, just let me be a witness for Christ in this classroom and to these kids. Mhmm. So I I appreciate that opportunity. I get to do that. And then, I serve on our athletic foundation board, so get to be involved in all the, you know, the aspect of sports with the kids.

Daniel: 47:04

I love sport. You know, talked about being a baseball player when I was little, but, you know, I get to work in the concession stand. And I'm good at slinging nachos, man. I can make a nacho, nacho cheese. That was that's my job back there in the concession stand on Friday nights for football.

Daniel: 47:23

But then my my wife is a teacher there also, and she coaches volleyball. She's coached basketball in the past, and and I she lets me be a part of that too. And so I'm I'm her assistant volleyball coach. And and that's just fun. It's a fun sport and but you get to be around these young ladies that are that are trying to to to grow to to learn, and and you get to be an example.

Daniel: 47:49

My wife and I get to be an example of this is what marriage looks like. This is what somebody that that loves you looks like. And, you know, kids are trying to figure that out in in school, and they have lots of different, images of what love is. Well, we get to model that

T.J.: 48:06

Mhmm.

Daniel: 48:07

As as coaches for them, and they get to see that. You know, they we were with playing some volleyball this in our summer stuff this past week, and and one of the little girls was telling another, about the way that I asked my wife to marry me. You know? And it's it's no great story. It's probably the lamest one ever, but, you know, they get to laugh at me as part of that, but but they know us.

Daniel: 48:32

And they Yeah. And they've seen for you know, we've been together for 30 years now. Right? And high school sweetheart. I tell those girls all the time, boys are stupid.

Daniel: 48:41

You don't need boyfriends. But and so they laugh because most of them have boyfriends. But but you you you mentioned the word identity, and that's what we get to be, and that's what I get to witness to. Our identity is not in boys. It's not in girls.

Daniel: 49:00

It's not in, you know, a sport that we play even though it's something that we love, and it's not in our school, but our identity is in Christ. And that's we are who he's he's called us to be and made to be. I've got a FCA shirt on here today. We just had a a a little banquet to kick off the school year, fellowship with Christian athletes, and, just to be able to go in and and be a part of that and before school, meet with kids and and just to share the gospel story and share that our identity comes in him. It's, in Christ and Christ alone, and everything that we do, is to be is to glorify him.

Daniel: 49:44

And so, as we work as a team, you know, we we play for the team the name that's on our chest. Right? The you know, our school there. But further than that and for our community and, that everybody can take pride in that. But, even as we conduct ourselves, remember, first and foremost, our identity is in Christ.

Daniel: 50:08

And so that's tell our boys all the time, growing up, remember who you are. Remember who you represent, not only in your your last name, your family name, right, but in the name that we get to bear as children of God. We're called Christians. It's right there in the name. That's who we represent.

Daniel: 50:31

And so, I get to share that message then with with all these kids in in school as well. Remember who you are and be who He's made you to be. Value yourself as He values you. Look at yourself like god looks at you. Right?

Daniel: 50:50

So it's a wonderful message to be able to to share with with those kids as as I get to to go and be a be a minister in the community. We have a little ministerial association, here in town, several different churches, and and we work well together. Whether it's a Baptist church, Presbyterian, or nondenominational or church of God or whatever it is, we're we have a common goal, and that's to bring Christ to to our community and and into the world. And so, I appreciate those opportunities that God's given me, and I appreciate this church letting me to go to do that, because I know not everywhere does that. They want you in the office from 8 to 5 every day, and, well, that's not where ministry happens, in in my opinion.

Daniel: 51:43

That works for some, I guess, but I've appreciated the opportunity to go, and and to represent Christ in our community. And we we as a church here, we've taken it even, extended that to the world. We've partnered with a church in Haiti now as part of our ministry and missions and, just to to see them grow and to to help being able to to to be a ministry and partner to them, has been a huge blessing for us. And so we we get to live out what what God asked us to do. Go be my witnesses.

Daniel: 52:23

Right? Not only in your hometown, in your own church, but but throughout the world. And that's as I've continued to to wrestle with my call because here it is 20 years later, and I still wrestle with it. There's still, like the little joke that, you know, the the wife has to tell, but you're the pastor. You have to go to church today.

Daniel: 52:45

Right? You know, I still still wrestle with that sometimes because that's where that self doubt creeps in. And I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know why God called me, and he should've called it. But yet I have a wonderful wife that reminds me of of who I am.

Daniel: 53:03

Right? That same reminder that I try to give to these other people. I have to be reminded of that myself. Yeah. So thank the lord for my partner in ministry and my wife and, and this church that that we we hold each other accountable to that.

Daniel: 53:18

Right? And so we get to share that message not only here but throughout the world. And what a privilege and honor that is, that God gives us to to be able to do that.

T.J.: 53:30

Daniel, I was wondering, you know, I've been around you a few times. I think you're, I think one of the things we have in common that is both a little shy. I'm glad you're not being shy now because you're really fired up in being able to share. Could you talk about the importance and how you balance between ministry and family and occasionally your other vocation as well? Because that that requires a lot of time.

T.J.: 54:06

Ministry, family, coaching, substitute teaching. How do you do it, and how do you care for yourself?

Daniel: 54:17

My wife and I, we we got us a camper this year, a little travel trailer.

T.J.: 54:22

Okay. Pop up camper, or is it

Daniel: 54:24

No. It's a it's a regular, travel trailer, 30 foot or something like that, and place enough for us to to say, okay, kids. We're going to the beach this week.

T.J.: 54:35

Mhmm.

Daniel: 54:36

Whoever can come be with us, come be with us because that's kinda way you know, our our oldest two sons are married, and, Otis has a little, baby of his own, 18, 16 months old or so, and our our middle son is expecting a child here, at the end of August. So we're looking for that, and we're having a baby shower for him here at church tomorrow. So Alright. That's awesome. So so our our youngest son is a senior in college down at Troy.

Daniel: 55:06

So and he's been busy, with involved in campus ministry. He he went down to school a month early just so he could be there for, you know, the freshman orientation stuff and be a representative of his Christian group that's there on campus. And, they're gone this week this weekend to some conference up in Nashville. So he's very involved in that. And so, we're busy, but our kids are busy too.

Daniel: 55:31

So we we have to identify those times. Okay. We're gonna get away. Mhmm. Just go chill out at the beach for a week or wherever, and who can come come.

Daniel: 55:44

And so we we've got us a little camper so we can go to these campgrounds, and the kids come and enjoy time together. And, and that's that's what we try to do is just get away every once in a while when we when the opportunity arises. And, as you said, just to care for yourself, just to go veg out with read a book on the beach or or or do nothing at all. Sit there and fall asleep to the ocean waves, which is my favorite thing to do. But it's it's just those times you can sit there and enjoy, god's creation.

Daniel: 56:20

I still marvel, every time looking out over the ocean, and how big it is, and then you think how big the world is, and you look up at night and how big the universe is, and yet he still loves me. That's crazy. Right? So Incomprehensible

T.J.: 56:40

Yeah. In some ways.

Daniel: 56:42

So, you know, if we've had opportunity the last, over the last couple months to to take a couple of trips like that, just to chill out for a while and just recharge the batteries, I guess, you'd say, before the school season starts again.

T.J.: 57:01

Yeah. You'll be full force in the next couple weeks.

Daniel: 57:05

Yeah. It starts well, it's already kinda started this week, but really ramping up when August gets here.

T.J.: 57:11

So Let's talk about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, some of its strengths, and if there's any areas that our church is missing from your perspective.

Daniel: 57:28

Well, I think we already hit on. The biggest strength to me is is that connectional nature, the family aspect of it. And even you know, we we can go to general assembly and and disagree about things, but at the end of the day, you're still family. You're still there to to hug on and love one another and sit down and enjoy breakfast with someone that may be on the opposite side of an issue of of you, whatever it is that's being debated at the moment, but you're still family because because of this church. And so that's very special, to me.

Daniel: 58:12

What can we work on? I think it goes back to just what we've been talking about. Remember remember who we are. Remember what who God has called us to be. Remember His blessings, that He pours out.

Daniel: 58:26

I just preached last week, in Romans 8 and and all of those wonderful promises that, you know, Paul talks about that are there. You know, if God's for us, who can be against us? We've in that FCA message, we've been given victory through Christ Jesus our Lord. That's who we are. That's our identity.

Daniel: 58:51

That's the promise that God is is bringing us to completion. That that gift of everlasting life, co heirs with Christ in that gift. Sometimes I think we forget that. We we get bogged down in in worldly things and worldly issues that try to come in and steal our joy, steal the hope that we have, because when we start putting our hope in politicians or issues or any other thing, we're gonna be disappointed. Yeah.

Daniel: 59:24

And so if we if we think that's who we are, we're missing the mark. But God's got a standard. God's got His word that He gives to us. And, from the first word to the last, it's God's word, and it's a gift to us that we can know more about Him, even as we you know, you said your word was incomprehensible there as we understand we're never gonna understand all there is about God. But, you know, sometimes I think we we shift our eyes off of of the goal and rather you know, Hebrews 12 there, fix your eyes on Jesus.

Daniel: 01:00:04

He is our hope. He is our victory. He is, and God's God's bringing us to that. And so we can remember those fruits of the spirit, you know, love, joy, peace, peace, all of those things that God has given to us that that we forget from time to time and maybe even every day. And so we have to remind ourselves and let the Lord remind us, that's not you.

Daniel: 01:00:29

This is who I've made you to be. This is what I've called you to do. I've called you into everlasting life. So take joy in that. Take hope in that.

Daniel: 01:00:39

And and share that message with with those around you because we know this world needs that hope as well.

T.J.: 01:00:45

Yeah. I'd I'm glad you said I was gonna add that to to that as well. Just, you know, an area for improvement is to take that joy. You talk about promise. You talk about gifts and and share it.

T.J.: 01:01:02

It is it is ours, not in terms of ours in a possession, but as it's news to share with others because of the joy that it gives, the life that it gives. So, yeah, I was just gonna add to it. But so now you just listen to my commentary of what you just said.

Daniel: 01:01:22

I I I appreciate all that you've said here because that's going back to to trying to figure out the call, that's, I'm supposed to preach about Jesus. I'm supposed to tell people about Jesus. Mhmm. I'm no, you know, great evangelist. I don't I don't pack out stadiums, but I can I can still tell the good news of the gospel?

Daniel: 01:01:47

Yeah. And I can go and live that out in the community even if I'm not, you know, in my suit and tie. I'd much rather be in T shirt and shorts than in a gym. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: 01:01:57

But but even there, I can live out the message of Christ, and the hope that we have in him. When we're disappointed in outcome of a game or, you know, if it's a tragedy in the community, you you whatever. You can be present Mhmm. And to share that hope.

T.J.: 01:02:15

And I think one for us as a denomination and individually as well, one of our greatest strengths is the ability to share the good news, and it may not be in a packed out stadium. But what we're offering is is a relationship that is, you know, intimate and transformative and full of grace, and that is 1 on 1 and small group conversations to be able to field questions and be in dialogue as Jesus was in dialogue and in conversation with his closest companions all the time. I think we have good reference points. And I think as as a church, as a denomination, we have a great strengths of being able to gather in smaller settings where names can be known and life situations can be shared and experienced together. And then have the scriptures in our life experiences to be able to speak to those joys and pains, uncertainties, and and celebrations.

Daniel: 01:03:28

Yeah. And, you know, that I may go back back to, you know, one of our issues as a denomination is maybe we're trying to be who God's not called us to be. We look at the Baptists and Southern Baptists, and there's, you know, 50,000,000 people or whatever. And, oh, wait. We should be well, sometimes you the stay in your lane.

Daniel: 01:03:52

This is what God's called us to be. This is who God's called us to do. And so we get to have, I I love that I'm in a smaller congregation that I I know people by name, and I know their stories. And, you you go back to talking about the the length of time at a particular place. You get to see children grow from from one point to to the next as they come into, their lives and grow and begin families of their own.

Daniel: 01:04:22

And we've got a girl in particular. When I first came here, I mean, just she wouldn't speak to, you know, anybody. But but to see her grow in her teenage years and through high school and, got to encourage her to go to Bethel, and she got to go to Bethel on a Boeing scholarship. And and guess what? Now she's feeling a call into ministry, and she's enrolled in MTS for the fall.

Daniel: 01:04:49

And I would have never thought that, you know, seeing this little girl when we first came, but, this is what God's brought her through and brought her to now. And she's figuring that out, and and we get to be a part of that as her church, to walk with her through that. And the blessing of being able to be here for for 12 years is, you know, I got to see that progression and be a small part of it. Yeah. Whatever whatever role that might have been.

Daniel: 01:05:18

That's you know, we don't always get to see the fruit of our labor, and that can be disappointing for a lot of people. But to just to know that there's even those little moments, as we talked about earlier, that you can stop and treasure and and enjoy with with people, You never know the impact that that's gonna have on somebody. So we might not see down the road where they made a profession or or what have you, but you get to be in that moment and and share share what you know as the good news, as the hope that we have in Christ. But and then a blessing comes when you are able to see that Right. What's been planted in water begin to grow.

Daniel: 01:06:02

You know?

T.J.: 01:06:03

Yeah. What a joy to be able to stick around and and actually see and reminisce of where our journeys have overlapped, our journeys of faith, of where they've overlapped. Or we didn't even recognize it in the moment, But, you know, coming back together or bumping into each other, being in conversation, being in meetings together, and you can look back and go, man, our journeys really have intertwined even though we've been miles and miles apart.

Daniel: 01:06:33

Yeah. And there again, the beauty of the denomination that we Yeah. Get the

T.J.: 01:06:39

Or, if it's not geography, then it's time like you were referring to watching a young person grow into adulthood, grow into a calling, and how your journey and her journey and the whole church's journeys individually, collectively, have intertwined, and to watch someone grow and answer a call into ministry. Not not that we're co opting, but we're sharing a journey together.

Daniel: 01:07:12

Right.

T.J.: 01:07:12

I think we forget that in the in, you know, we're more individualistic, I think, at times in in North America, specifically, that, you you know, we think about, a me and what I, you know, and singular pronouns. But from a scripture point of view and from a covenant community, that's not so. And I I think I think it's helpful to to recall how connected we really are, even when we don't wanna be. That's true. Even when we're barely tolerable, as we've talked about earlier.

T.J.: 01:07:47

We're still interconnected, and that's a good thing, all in all.

Daniel: 01:07:55

That's right.

T.J.: 01:07:56

Daniel, you mentioned, on your downtime, grabbing up a book and reading. Can you recommend a couple books to those who listen to Cumberland Road, something that you enjoy reading? And let me give you a a caveat. So, the scriptures, the Bible, and the confession of faith, we'll just assume those are are your recommendations. But beyond those

Daniel: 01:08:24

2. The the last book I read, at the beach this summer, was it's Brad Meltzer is the author. Mhmm. This book was the Nazi conspiracy. I like to read, and and Brad Meltzer, he he used he had a series on, History Channel a few years back.

Daniel: 01:08:45

That was very good. Just walking to I'm a history nerd. I love that kind of stuff. So that was a very interesting book. And to be honest, those are the kind of stuff that I'll read.

Daniel: 01:08:55

Just, if I'm reading, it's probably gonna be at the beach or something. And so I'm reading to get my mind off of of you know, and relax or whatever. So

T.J.: 01:09:07

Mhmm.

Daniel: 01:09:07

I really like Brad Brad Meltzer kinda book. Those those mystery you know, we like the police dramas on TV and all those kind of things. So Yeah. That's what we enjoy, and that's the kind of stuff that I enjoy reading. I don't have a here's my my flaw again, I guess.

Daniel: 01:09:23

I don't have a great theological book to to recommend to anybody. Although I did read one about, Diedrich Bonhoeffer a few years ago. Mhmm. It was very good and very informative. And it's one of those you never thought as a kid you'd read.

Daniel: 01:09:38

You know, it's 800 pages long and but I have to look I know which

T.J.: 01:09:44

one you're referring to. I can't well, it's just called Bonhoeffer.

Daniel: 01:09:49

It is. Yeah.

T.J.: 01:09:51

Yeah. I can't read the author's name from here. But, yeah, it's one of those that is, it just has a few pictures in the middle, and the rest of it is all text.

Daniel: 01:10:02

But it's it's good. I mean, it's engrossing because that's it's history, and it's those people's lives and and what they walk through. And that's that's something that we can learn from is is what's the old phrase? If you don't know history, you're doomed to repeat it. Right?

Daniel: 01:10:19

Right. We can we can learn from, those in the past. We can learn from our church fathers and, you know, the, again, that's the the cool story about we've got a awesome story in our denomination. It's it's wonderful to sit down and to read and to ingest all of that. So history of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, the people called Cumberland Presbyterian.

Daniel: 01:10:44

This, they believe. Those are some of the books sitting right over there, that that I've read in the past and and and go to from time to time again, just to just to see who we are and where God's brought us from and brought us to, where he's taken us to. You know? But not only the church history, but, you know, other parts of history as well just as a people, all created by God and in God's image and, to see what we've chosen to do with that at times. Yeah.

Daniel: 01:11:17

Some of it's good. Some of it some of it we learn not to repeat.

T.J.: 01:11:21

Right? Right. Daniel, thank you for giving me of your time and sharing your faith journey. I've enjoyed this. I really have.

T.J.: 01:11:32

The the your your journey, I hadn't heard it before, and I'm really, really glad. I hope you felt comfortable to open up and and to share. And

Daniel: 01:11:44

I did. I was really dreading this, but but I have enjoyed it as well. It's been a very good very good morning with you. I appreciate the opportunity.

T.J.: 01:11:53

Oh, thank you. Honor has been all mine.

T.J.: 01:11:57

Thank you for listening to the faith journey of Daniel Barclay. And now let me close with an affirmation from the confession of faith for Cumberland Presbyterian. All who are united to Christ by faith are also united to one another in love. In this communion, they are to share the grace of Christ with one another, to bear one another's burdens, and to reach out to all other persons.