Daniel Ignacio Headley - (Pt. 1) Mechanical Engineering, Becoming Christian, & Faith In The Workplace
You're listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. The following is a faith conversation with Daniel Headley, a mechanical engineer and a Cumberland Presbyterian minister. Daniel works in an environment that thrives on creativity, grappling with complex questions and ideas that can shape and transform reality at both an individual and a corporate scale. We discuss how faith speaks to the implications of creating something new and the need to think beyond the workplace safety measures to a space that includes ethical and moral questions. This is part 1 of a 2 part faith conversation, And Daniel shares some of the demands of being a person of faith while exploring innovations and seeking solutions to today's problems. He also shares his first encounter with the Christian faith in discovering deep meaning and becoming what Daniel describes as one of the Jesus people. Here is part 1 of my faith conversation with Daniel Headley.
T.J.:Daniel, you're an engineer and a Cumberland Presbyterian minister. You're an engineer in what field?
Daniel:Mechanical engineering, specifically research and development.
T.J.:Well, tell me more. That's almost another language to me. Yeah.
Daniel:I specifically work in an environment where we create extremely high pressure and extremely high temperature environments that allow us to study the boundary cases for physical phenomenon of the universe. So so we have a machine that is the, highest x-ray generating device in the world, second only to a nuclear weapon, and that allows us to expose, things in that machine to incredibly stressful environments that would be similar to, say, the inside of a a star.
T.J.:Wow.
Daniel:And so we so we have to develop things that can look at that and and then and then analyze what happens inside that environment.
T.J.:Okay. I'm soaking this in. So magnets are pretty strong, but is there a liquid, the friction of 2 liquids or space between 2 liquids?
Daniel:So we actually use Or
T.J.:is it a solid?
Daniel:That's a that's an interesting question because phases is one of the things we explore. We explore different phase transitions of material at extremely high pressures. And so we we generate an extremely high magnetic field, and and it's, generated by a very, very powerful electrical pulse. And what happens is we can create incredible phase changes. So something might start as a solid, and it'll end up as a plasma, like the material in a star.
Daniel:It might start as a liquid and, end up as an extremely solid crystal temporarily during that pressure change. So things happen during those environments that are that don't happen anywhere else other than a star, basically, or or an extremely high pressure environment, that could happen. That's kinda like a star, for example, in nuclear weapons, similar type of high pressure environment.
T.J.:Well, how do you contain if the properties of the objects, plural, change? How do you contain?
Daniel:It happens very, very quickly. And then it all blows up. So we don't contain it. It blows up into pieces, and then we have to clean up the mess after. So it's very small amounts of material, extremely small centimeter scale amounts of material that, for a very short period of time, undergo incredible transformations, and then they just blow apart.
Daniel:And then we clean up the mess and do it all over again.
T.J.:What kind of looking glasses do you use to be able to not only see it, but record these changes?
Daniel:So we we have to actually create we have to create diagnostic tools that don't exist anywhere else. And so part of part of what happens like, you know how you've you've heard stories about how Velcro was invented by NASA for the space industry. I believe that's true. Right. The space pen, you know, the pressurized pen that they have.
Daniel:You know? So, lasers were invented for different purposes. Right? So we have to develop tools in order to do that. And then someone says, Hey, you have the fastest camera in the world.
Daniel:Can we use that camera for something else? And since we're government funded, the government says, of course, it's paid for by US taxpayer money. So here that here is how we built it. This is how it works. And so, you know, we share we share our developments with, with other US companies, as the need arises.
Daniel:And so from from the work we do for our extreme environment, is born, solutions to problems that haven't yet been dreamt up yet, but eventually will be dreamt up. So, you know, we we are creating problems that don't exist on Earth and then finding ways to look at those problems and answer those questions so that other people can later ask a new question that we didn't think of asking yet. And that's how science that's how science progresses.
T.J.:That is awesome. So there's a lot of freedom and encouragement for creativity.
Daniel:Absolutely. I when when in a nutshell, when people ask me what I do, I say I'm an inventor. I'm I'm an inventor is what I am. So you give me they give me parameter space, you know, I need something that does this within these parameters, these requirements, and then I have to find a solution on a mechanical side. I do the mechanical solution.
Daniel:But I I particularly cross boundaries quite a bit, so I do a lot of I I work with a lot of other folks that do electric electronics as well and, and software development. So my designs are married to, electromechanical systems and software systems as well. So there's there's a cross pollination that happens in in our work. So it's not it's not so silent. Right?
Daniel:We work as teams to develop things. But I also do a lot in the way of safety, and that's where ministry for me really comes to play. So for me, the work I do to look at these crazy environments, that's worship. Right? So for me, that's worshipful.
Daniel:To be able to consider these really hard problems and try to think of things that have never been thought of before, because that's it sounds funny, but that's what we do. Like like, there are a lot of times I try as much as I can to buy some things that already exist. Like, if I see if I look online, somebody makes a widget, and I think, oh, I could use that widget in my thing. And then I call them up. I'm, like, hey, I see you all make this widget.
Daniel:How much force can it handle in this direction? Or or, you know, what what temperatures can it tolerate or whatever? And then the guy on the phone goes, I I don't know. We've never been asked that before. So so we get that all the time.
Daniel:You're like then so then I'll say, well, okay, I'll just buy one and see, you know, I'll just test it out and see what it can handle. Right? Because if I can use someone else's thing, I will, if I don't have to design it from scratch. But a lot of times, we end up having to design it from scratch, because these things don't exist for sale anywhere else. So, and so that's the worship part for me, answering these hard problems I'm given to so physicists come up with really hard questions, and engineers come up with tools so the physicists can answer their questions.
Daniel:And that's how we work as a team. And then tech technicians in the field, they implement the design from the engineers that the that the physicists wanted so that the experiment can happen. And so now you're talking about a little community. So now we have and and then if you're not careful within a little community like that, you start getting hierarchies really quickly. The physicists are at the top.
Daniel:Engineers are in the middle. The scientists are at the bottom. And before you know it, you have a stratification of roles and and then and then what can also harmfully happen is you have, people that start to assign value to those to those levels, Right. I'm more important than you are. You know, don't question me.
Daniel:I'm I know this, you know, well, I told you to do that. So just do that. Don't ask questions. And that sort of dynamic can occur in any workplace, and it really can occur where I am, because you have we have an extremely high high end number of PhDs where where we work. And, and then you have everybody from PhDs to high school graduates doing the work for the people, and then the engineers are in the middle.
Daniel:Most of us don't have PhDs. And so it's really easy for that to get out of control. And so like the pastoral side is part of being a shepherd in that setting is saying, Look, let's all let's we all want to succeed together. We all want this to work, we all want to have a good time at work, we all want to get along, we all want to enjoy what we're doing, You know, let's listen to one another. Let's respect one another.
Daniel:And so I've often found that meetings, you know, so often you hear people complain about meetings. How often have you heard someone complain about meetings?
T.J.:We do all the time, Daniel.
Daniel:Right? Everybody complains about meetings. But what I have found is that meetings are where pastoral opportunities occur in the workplace. Right? That's one of them.
Daniel:There are lots of other pastoral opportunities, but one of them is in the workplace. And like you have, you have so many opportunities in meetings, to practice leadership skills, to listen to other people and to advocate for other people. Like, you'll notice, like, in the workplace, doesn't happen as often in engineering because there aren't very many women. But because there aren't very many women, sometimes when a woman is there, she speaks up, nobody hears her. And then and then some 5 minutes later, some guy will say the exact same thing she said, but won't credit her.
Daniel:Right? And so I notice this a lot. So, you know, because I'm a champion of women in leadership, and, you know, I when I hear something like that, when I hear a woman speak up, I always try to make sure that people listen to her ideas. Like, she's taking we have so few women. It is so intimidating for women to speak up in our environment.
Daniel:If a woman dares to speak up, let's all stop and listen. Can we like she's, you know, and I don't make a big deal of it like that. I don't like everyone stop and listen to the woman. That would be embarrassing. Right.
Daniel:But but but I want to make sure she said something. And if I if I feel like it wasn't heard and it was a good thing to hear, you know, I'll say, hey, that was a good idea. Can you explain that more? Right? Or then if someone else later doesn't acknowledge her, but then you says her idea again, you know, I'll say something like, oh, yeah.
Daniel:Well, Karen said that just 5 minutes ago. That was a good idea. Right? I'll point it back to her. Mhmm.
Daniel:And vice versa. Like, if we have technologists, a lot Mhmm. And vice versa. Like, if we have technologists, a lot of times the technologists,
T.J.:like I said, they're at the bottom hierarchically.
Daniel:And so they they you know, one of them may come up with a phenomenal idea that that answers a question that a physicist had, you know, kind of at a core question. And but sometimes it's kind of brushed off because it came from the wrong person. Right? Well, he he's a high school graduate, like, that idea couldn't come from a high school graduate. Right?
Daniel:So then it's a great chance to shepherd that moment and say, Hey, well, that was that was awesome. Can you can you share a bit more about that? So we can we can hear more about that and try to and so that has been in fact, I didn't learn that. Honestly, I did until I started going to seminary. And I was doing seminary and working before I went full time to seminary.
Daniel:That's when God started opening my eyes to the fact that my place, my pastoral place in the workplace is always on. Like, I am never off as a pastor. Place. You know, I mean, even though most of my work is computer based, most of my work is analysis, and doing things like that. I am still always on because I'm sending emails all the time.
Daniel:How is my what is the structure of my email? Right? Is it helpful? Does it does it disarm people in a in a bad way? Is it is it encouraging?
Daniel:Is it discouraging? Right? Emails can so quickly be discouraging if you're not careful on how you write them. You know what I mean?
T.J.:Yeah. Because tone is hard to read in the written words.
Daniel:It is. It is. So hard. So you know, I find and then also making sure that everyone knows I'm a Christian, and those I'm a minister in workplace, holds me accountable. Right?
Daniel:Because then I know that they know that I'm one of the Jesus people. So so since I know that they know, you know, I really better be careful.
T.J.:That's interesting. So the accountability, typically, we think of it either within the community of faith and or or and both inwardly accountability as living out your faith. But Daniel, you're seeing it as in, okay, the recognition of who I am but actually it's non Jesus followers, are the ones holding you accountable to the principles of of the Christian
Daniel:faith? I think they're the best people to hold us accountable.
T.J.:Maybe we're listening to the wrong people then.
Daniel:I really believe we need to listen a whole lot more to the people that criticize us outside of church.
T.J.:Yeah. That's really not funny. It's just the irony in it is funny. Yeah. You know?
T.J.:You're gonna learn more about yourself from someone who may know more about you than you know about you.
Daniel:Yeah. And Paul does tell us that elders should be respected in the community.
T.J.:Mhmm. So in the community that you work in, you have this, hierarchy, spoken and unspoken. And where where does where does the ethical implications and maybe moral where does that fit into the mix of the experimentation that your field, is practicing? What does that look like?
Daniel:Yeah. A lot. A lot. A lot. A lot.
Daniel:So I can answer that question in many different ways. But let me so I recent we've recently been hiring a lot of new engineers, and a lot of them are out of college recently. You know, maybe they've had an internship or a couple of years out of work outside before they came to us, but most of them are new. And and, so right now, I'm training 4 of them. 4, anyway, something like that.
Daniel:And, you know, it's like, what, one of the questions that I often comes up because because of the kind of work we do, because it's high voltage, I mean, very high voltage. Right? 1000 of volts, you know, you know, millions of amps. Right? High current, high temperatures, high pressures, magnetic fields, extremely heavy things that we have to fly around the building with a crane, that people are standing around in the building while these massive things are moving by.
Daniel:Right? Forklifts, things that people have to enter that we design. Right? Like vessels that people have to go into that that I design. You know, I can't point the finger at someone else if someone gets hurt and said, well, I guess we shouldn't have bought it from that company.
Daniel:No. No. It's my name. I designed that thing. Right?
Daniel:And so people, you know, get hazardous gas, hazardous chemicals. Right. We have hazards all over the workplace and we put them there. The engineers, right? The physicists, the physicists wanted the wanted the apparatus for their science.
Daniel:And we engineers are the ones that said, well, you need this much oil, you need this much nitrogen, you need all these hazardous environments we create. So we're responsible for them. And, and and so people's lives are in our hands and the things that we design. And so as young people come in young engineers, and they start to realize the gravity of what they're doing. Right?
Daniel:Because when we're analyzing things and checking each other's work, we develop a community of accountability within the workplace. If I design something new, I ask my peers to review it, I have regular peer review sessions, I document my work carefully, I show my thought processes. And, and so how does how does ethics come into this? Right? So there are federal laws that govern a lot of workplace safety.
Daniel:OSHA. Right. One of the first things I do is I champion OSHA. Right. There are many engineers.
Daniel:I unfortunately, I've heard many engineers complain about things like OSHA. Right? So I try to change the culture right up front and I and I hold OSHA at high esteem. If it's written in OSHA, I will do it. And I will not complain about it, and I will try to exceed it.
Daniel:It's not a bare minimum for me. It is a baseline that I try to do better than because that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be a baseline. I contact safety folks before I deliver a product. So as I'm developing, I contact environmental folks, I contact safety, workplace safety, all different.
Daniel:I say, Hey, I'm developing a new thing. Why don't you come look at this and tell me what you think about it? And I and I have them look at my concepts, really early concepts, And I want to get their opinions before I get too far down the road and they feel, you know, before they feel like, well, I guess I have to say yes because you're basically done. Right? You know, I get them in at the ground step.
Daniel:It's like, hey, you have a chance to speak into this now. Right? What do I need to be doing? What what are my hazards? What what do I need to pay attention to?
Daniel:What should I not do? I I so I bring in people early. Right? I honor that profession. The I honor the safety profession by saying you have something valuable to bring to the table because you are the safety people.
Daniel:You care about the health and well-being of others. And so do I. As a as a follower of Christ, I better care about the health and well-being of other people. Right? And so and so I I bring into them into the story early, and I model that for the new engineers around.
Daniel:Me. Right? So instead of being fearful of the inspectors and the auditors, I raise my hand and I say, hey. Come look at this. Hey.
Daniel:Come see what I did. You think I did this right or not? Right? So I invite them in. And then I say, well, the other thing I do, which I think is also part of it's part of how I think about loving my neighbor, is I try to create the best documents I can create.
Daniel:So instead of complaining about my documents, I try to make them beautiful and readable and understandable so that someday, if something goes wrong, someone will go back to my document and say, this is what he was trying to do. This was the intent. This is, what we what we were trying to accomplish, and what we considered and what we didn't consider, you know, if it went wrong, we know what we tried to do. We know why we tried to do it, and we did the best we could. And that goes down to, like, when I finally am training a new engineer, they say they look at me every now and then, new new because I've done this a lot.
Daniel:I've trained a lot of engineers over the years, and they'll say something like, Well, what happens if someone gets hurt or dies from my work? And the reality is, you can? Well, first, that's on your conscience. 1st. That's the first thing.
Daniel:Second, you could go to prison as an engineer. People don't think engineers engineers actually could go to prison sometimes for negligence and for failures in their work. So So I'm, like, yeah. Well, you know, you could be well, first, it's on your conscience that someone someone was injured for the work you did. 2nd, you know, it may cost you a lot of money in legal fees, lawsuits, all of that.
Daniel:And 3rd, you could go to prison. All of that could happen. So are you going to think all day about how to not go to prison, how to not spend money on legal fees? Or are you just going to think about how can I create the safest, most, user intuitive and and understandable system that I can, so that people go home every day the same way they came in? If I just spend my time caring about my neighbor and thinking about how I can love my neighbor by thinking through all the possible things things I could go wrong that I can think of.
Daniel:And then if I can't think of them all, I go to my friend. I'm like, what else? What else can you think of that could go wrong? And then I go to the safety. I'm like, hey, these are all the things that I thought it could go wrong.
Daniel:What do you think could go wrong? And then I find another safety person. I say, What about you? And I bring everybody into the story. We all think about it together.
Daniel:And then I bring the person that does the work in the field every day that actually turns the wrenches. And I say, look, this is what I'm trying to bring to you. Tell me how you might get hurt doing this? Or what should I change about this? So that way, you can, you can come to work every day and enjoy your job and and not be injured on the job.
Daniel:Right? I bring everyone into the story and I build a community around this, and I can go home every day feeling like I've done my best. And in the end, that's all you can do.
T.J.:What about so we covered health and safety of the immediate individuals around. But in these moments of creation and creating new things, perhaps for discovery of the cosmos that we live in and for the betterment of humanity. My question is also a little bit deeper from the ethical point of view is who raises the questions of the ethical implications on what may be created, you know, and, you know, looking beyond because I think about if I'm leaning into the work that I'm doing and I can really get surrounded by it and not and lose the big picture. Like, being able to create this widget or this process, to to create something new, and it can replicate itself to look, you know, 3, 4, 5 steps down the road. Not that you know the answer or a solution could be provided, but allowing the mind to stretch that far ahead, where does that come into this this community of physicists and and engineers and technicians?
Daniel:That's a that's a wonderful question, considering the world that we live in with nuclear weapons. Mhmm. Right? I mean, this all of this science is part of the nuclear weapons complex. You know?
Daniel:And if you wanna learn how a star works, you also end up learn learning how an atom bomb works along the way. It's impossible to separate those 2. And, you know, knowing more without those controls, if you will, or those, the moral compass, Right?
T.J.:Mhmm.
Daniel:You know, it can bring great harm. It's it's it's really weird when you think about how much innovation in the world has come about because we wanted to kill each other.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel:And it's really shocking. Or or
T.J.:re repurposing something beautiful into something that becomes a tool that's ugly.
Daniel:Yeah. Like, when 3 d printing was first invented, now 3 d printing is pretty commonplace, right? And I was just super excited that I could I was like, oh, I could I don't have a 3 d printer. But in my head, when I first heard about it, I thought, oh, I could buy one of those one day. And I could I could just take some ideas and print them out for fun.
Daniel:Like, I could have I could just print out some inventions, you know, out of plastic or whatever.
T.J.:Yeah.
Daniel:And it never occurred to me until I heard well, it didn't occur to me at all. I heard someone say this, like, we could print guns. Why? But, like, why did you get there so quickly? Like, why would you wanna print a gun?
Daniel:Well, we can print guns that can't be seen by X rays. And so you could pass them through scanners. Why? Exactly. You know, I just wanna make a toy for my son.
Daniel:Oh, why did you go there? So your question is is is something I struggle with a lot because as a follower of Christ, I do lament violence. And, you know, and that's funny because we often, you know, you think about, like, social social taboos, you know, the hot topics, right? And so whether it be having the right political views, or having the right stance on homosexuality and LGBTQ issues but the one thing that American Christians don't seem to spend a whole lot of time on, in my opinion, is discussions about violence. You know, it's it's so much part of our media.
Daniel:Right? The Avengers Avengers movies. I mean, how much violence is in Avengers? They they blow up whole cities, right, in these battles. You know what I mean?
Daniel:With aliens and things. And, you know, whole, you know, half the population is wiped out. Right. You know, we have so much violence in our media so much. And you look at how much God abhors violence in Scripture.
Daniel:And, and so I do lament the fact that violence is so integrated into our culture, and even into my work that I don't, I don't develop weapons, personally. But, the reality is the work that I do is potentially useful in those ways, too, because extreme pressures, extreme temperatures, right, high magnetic fields, Right? All these kinds of things have other applications. And so, you know, who's in control of that? Well, we're congressionally funded.
Daniel:So, you know, part of it is Congress. Right? Our science mission is developed and stated by people who, hopefully, have a good moral, head on their shoulders. And so far, I have been consistently impressed by the leadership of the labs, people who are very level headed. These aren't politicians' types that run the labs.
Daniel:They're very level in my opinion, very level headed physicists and scientists of different types that are asking those hard questions, like, what should we be working on? How will this be used, but on the other hand, the cat is out of the bag. Right? It turns out, lots of people know how to make terrible things. Right?
Daniel:You and so the in the grant, it's you asked for big picture, If you zoom way out, the reality is some in this broken world, I have reconciled myself with the fact that Russia has nuclear weapons, a whole lot of them. So, therefore, the US should have nuclear weapons too, unfortunately. I wish it wasn't that way. I wish I wish people there weren't other people who, you know, didn't have these powers as well, to who might wield them in a negative way. But then again, we're the only ones who've ever dropped a nuclear weapon on someone.
Daniel:So it's funny, like, the arrow the the the finger points right back at us in the moment. Like, like, if the US gets all high and mighty about nuclear weapons, like, yeah. But we're the only ones who ever dropped 1. Yeah. 2, actually.
Daniel:Right? On people.
T.J.:Well, I raised the question because in the scientific world and with the scientific method, you know, you have a series. It's a methodology. And I'm just wondering where the ethical, moral questions could be applied.
Daniel:It's Michael Crichton. Just because you could doesn't mean you should. Or just because you can doesn't mean you should. Right. That's the Michael Crichton from from, question from
T.J.:grass park. Yeah. Yeah. Well and it doesn't need to be finger pointing questions. It's just questions going, okay.
T.J.:This is progressing beautifully. And these are the immediate examples in areas that we can we can use this widget or we can use this this new invention. But I think people of faith and even maybe philosophers can ask the questions sort of beyond the beyond, you know. And also to remind us of like, yes, it can do these beautiful things, but it can also do these harmful things as well. And that we all get to grapple with that together and go, oh, will these wonderful things outweigh the potential harmful ways.
T.J.:And at least there's a way there's checks there and Yeah. You know, hope I don't want creativity to be stifled by any means in experimentation, but it's also good to ask questions along the way.
Daniel:Yeah. And that's where publications come into play. So, you know, we publish a lot of papers, because of our research. And, and so I think, you know, most of our publications aren't of that nature, I would say, most of them aren't reflective in that nature. That's actually an area where I'm exploring possibly entering into is, you know, I'm co authored on a lot of papers, but I've never been principal author.
Daniel:And and I've been I've been thinking about, like, what is my place as a principal author in this world? And one and I have I'm working on a few papers, and that's kind of the direction I'm going. I so you asked funny you asked that question. You know, I'm not a scientist, so I can't write the scientific papers. It's it's out of my qualification set.
Daniel:Right? It just it doesn't belong to me. That belongs to my peers that are scientists. But, you know, but I've been asking myself, you know, what should you know, if I were to write a paper, what would I want to write about? And and it's so your question is very personal to me because I've been thinking about that exact thing.
Daniel:You know, how do I bring my whole self into telling a story about the work we're doing that, that can bring value in a way that my scientific peers aren't doing. Right? They're talking about the science, but not a lot of people are writing about the things that you're talking about. And so, you know, it comes back to peer review and, bringing ideas out into the world. Right?
Daniel:And so that that's that's that's the role our publications play, but they typically play that role only for scientific communication. And, like I said, I'm working on 2 papers that are of a lesser scientific, like, not scientific. They're more they're process oriented papers and fill us and they're not philosophical per se, but they do get a little bit into the idea of why do we do what we do? One of the things I've been working on for the last almost 3 years is a is a very large safety system. And so and so one of the papers I'm looking at is is, discussing how we've addressed all of these workplace hazards, ergonomic hazards, and, and and and and how we're addressing them preemptively.
Daniel:We don't have a laundry list of injuries in the workplace that are motivating us. We're doing it because because a few people and myself and others, we see the risk, we say that machine is dangerous, People could get hurt, but we're not waiting for the injury to make the new machine. We're gonna make the new machine before the injury happens. And this is why. Right?
Daniel:This is why we do it before the injury happens. And then the other one I'm working on is about is more of an environmental, it's a small little footprint in the in the in the total world of waste, but it's a it's a it's a thing that I've been working on that was that was a new design that was motivated by my own environmentalist tendencies. And so my environmentalist tendencies resulted in an innovation in a very highly scientific system that had nothing to do with environmentalism at all. But because I view the world that way, and I don't like waste, and I like to reduce streamline, it resulted in a significant change. That is that is a significant improvement to our overall facility.
T.J.:Interesting.
Daniel:So it's it's a story of how, you know, being environmentalist doesn't mean that you're stifling creativity, right? You may actually be creating more opportunities for creativity
T.J.:And more resources.
Daniel:And more yeah. And a safer environment for us all.
T.J.:How did you get into mechanical engineering? Were you one of those That's a funny story. Were you one of those, small children that would take the microwave apart and Yeah. Put it back together?
Daniel:I didn't put it back together, typically.
T.J.:I didn't either.
Daniel:I took a lot of things apart. I will I only took the things apart that I was allowed to take apart. So I didn't take apart, you know, the microwave unless it was broken. Then I then I was allowed to take it apart if there was a broken microwave.
T.J.:That's that's how it was at my house as well. You know, the the broken appliances. Here's a toaster. It didn't work anymore. Yeah.
T.J.:I could take them apart. Couldn't put them back together.
Daniel:Well, so it's a funny thing. So my my, my first and when I say my first business, it was not a licensed business. Okay? Let me let me be very clear.
T.J.:So this is a confession.
Daniel:I was I was self employed, as in I was taking people's money to do a job, but it was not a but it was I was doing and I was doing it repeatedly. So what I was doing at start, I started at age 14, installing car audio systems into people's cars for money.
T.J.:Okay.
Daniel:On my own, not working for a business. And to this day, I do not understand why people would give a 14 year old money to take their car apart and put a sift a sound system in it. Blows my mind. And I think some people are just I would I I wouldn't do that. But some people have thought it was just exciting to watch a 14 year old take their car apart and put it back together.
Daniel:So, that's how that started for me. So
T.J.:this was in the nineties then, late nineties, early 2000s when those, aftermarket
Daniel:It was in the early it was in early nineties.
T.J.:Early nineties. The aftermarket stereo and speakers and amplifiers were much better than what you could get stock. Right. Exactly. Push back then.
T.J.:Yeah. I remember those days.
Daniel:I used to
T.J.:build those days.
Daniel:Yeah. So I used to build those systems. And, and then I, I really enjoyed it, but I I was terrible at math. And I've learned in hindsight it's funny. I'm 46 years old.
T.J.:Mechanical engineer.
Daniel:I know.
T.J.:Terrible at math. Okay.
Daniel:I know. So I'm 46 years old, and my wife has I'm old enough that they weren't really they weren't really diagnosing people with ADD those in those days. I just missed the window where the counselors were trying to diagnose that. And so later on in life with my wife got to when I went seminary, actually, my wife saw started watching me study. And she's, like, you have massive ADD.
Daniel:And I was, like, I, I was, like, oh, is that what that is? And she goes, yeah. And because she's a counselor. I didn't say that. My wife's a counselor, so she could diagnose kids with this kind of stuff.
Daniel:She just
T.J.:doesn't she just doesn't randomly diagnose people.
Daniel:Right.
T.J.:So Yeah. Okay.
Daniel:Yeah. And so and so, and I was like, well, yeah, I mean, I have, I think I kind of thought that, but I had never knew for sure, because I've never diagnosed. And so yeah, and all through school, I always struggled to focus and pay attention. And with math, it's one of those things where if you don't get a few concepts early, then you don't it's a foundation, but you, you know, you have a problem getting it later. So, yeah, all through, high mid high and high school, I was just abysmal at math.
Daniel:And it wasn't until I got to college and I decided to I actually started as a biology major and a pre med major. And then in my junior year, I switched to mechanical engineering. And that's actually a different story. That's kind of amusing. But I switched to mechanical engineering my junior year.
Daniel:And and then I realized, well, I guess now I better start taking math classes. So so then I started applying myself to math classes. So I basically did all of that in college. And, you know, I actually read every page of my calculus 3 book. You know?
Daniel:It was actually a fun book to read, believe it or not. It was one of my favorite books. Please stop. Yeah. I was like, this isn't that bad.
Daniel:Why did I hate this? If only I had started this sooner. So yeah, I had to do I had to play a lot of catch up. I always say I had to work I had to work harder than most of the people in my junior classes. Because most of the people in my engineering classes knew, liked math, when they were young, and didn't have add.
Daniel:Because most people with add don't end up taking engineering classes. So I had to work really hard. It was very difficult. But, where did that work? So anyway
T.J.:Where did that work ethic come from? That that that drive to overcome obstacles, knowing that you have these obstacles, you know, there's certainly other paths to take.
Daniel:I think part of it is genetic. I'm not gonna lie. My grandfather had a really high work ethic, and, I my my mom my parents divorced when I was 13, and and I lived it was just the 2 of us, my mom and I living, from 13 on together. And so, you know, I tried as much as a kid can. You know, I tried to help out around the house, not and not be a pain, you know, not make a mess of the house and try to try to make my mom's life not too difficult until I discovered girls, and then it made my mom's life way too difficult.
Daniel:But,
T.J.:but And and installing car stereo.
Daniel:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But she was really proud of me for that, actually. And my grandfather loved it about me.
Daniel:But, I think a lot of that really is something a gift that God gave me. I think tenacity is something that God gave me that, I'm thankful for. And I think, for some people, for some people having the energy to be tenacious is, is a hurdle of its own. Right? For me, I think I'm just born tenacious.
Daniel:And then it's a matter of aiming it in the right direction.
T.J.:For full disclosure, you and I have crossed paths working with board board admissions and things like that and, side by side and hand by hand. And, I have seen that. That's I couldn't I couldn't hold the laughter back. It's true. It's true.
T.J.:And, you know, self awareness is helpful.
Daniel:Well, I've been But
T.J.:but it's it's it's an advantage as well.
Daniel:Yeah. It's also a disadvantage. You know, I I have offended people. I've been criticized for being too driven. I've been I've been called out for being too aggressive.
Daniel:So you know, I mean, it's it's a learning process. Right? And and try and part of that just all goes hand in hand with, you know, trying to be pastoral in the workplace and trying to be I just it happened this week. I was mentoring a new engineer. He's in his mid twenties.
Daniel:No, maybe not even. Maybe he's 24. He's almost he's in his mid twenties, but on the early side of mid twenties. And, and he has a master's degree, and so I know, I wasn't sure how much he knew and I didn't want to assume. I didn't want him to think that I was patronizing.
Daniel:And so it was this fine line of well, does he know this? Or does he not know this? Like, should he know this? Or did I know this when I was his age? Well, I didn't have a master's degree in this 24.
Daniel:Well, maybe he should know this.
T.J.:He has
Daniel:a master's degree at 24. You know, he got he I he finished his master's degree at 23. Right? So I'm like, well, maybe he should know this. And so I was I was working through something with him, and I could tell he started getting quiet and he looked a little uncomfortable.
Daniel:And I said, Are we okay? And he and he said, you know, your your tone changed. And I got intimidated because I don't know if I know the answer for what you're asking for. And I said, I said, Thank you for telling me that. I'm very sorry.
Daniel:You know, I do not want to intimidate you, and I do not want you to feel like you're failing. I want you to know that I trust you, and and I assume you know this unless you show me or tell me that you don't know it because I don't want to think less of you, you know, if you do. I don't want you to feel patronized and may and have me I don't wanna assume you don't know it if you do. Right?
T.J.:Right. Yeah.
Daniel:So I'm gonna assume you do know it until you tell me or show me that you don't know. And, and so we had a moment there.
T.J.:It's that dance of interpersonal relationship, you know, as you're trying to figure out how to work together and how to speak and convey information and it be received and be accepted and and yet to move forward. It it is. It's like a dance. Yeah. Maybe maybe if, to, stick with the the metaphor of a dance, maybe if we call the steps out loud would be helpful.
T.J.:You know, left foot, right foot. Back, slide.
Daniel:Yeah. I'm saying this right now, and this is why. Because there's a rhythm. This is what I'm thinking. This is why I'm asking you this question.
T.J.:Right? Yeah. It's candor
Daniel:to the extreme. Right?
T.J.:Being tenacious.
Daniel:That's funny.
T.J.:So where did where is a relationship with Jesus Christ in this lifespan for you, Daniel?
Daniel:Yeah. Oh, it so And
T.J.:we'll start with an awareness of who Jesus is, and then we can lead into a relationship.
Daniel:Mhmm. So, okay. I was born in Mexico, and my mom wasn't married at the time, and then brought me over to the US. Just me. And and I so I came to the and so she she I started my life, you know, here in the US at just a few months old.
Daniel:You know, my mom had been studying in Mexico at the time. And we came to live with my grandparents, my mom's parents, and my biological father stayed behind. And, I've never met him before. Now my living in my grandparents' house with my mom, and also my aunt came to live with us with her daughter, at the same time. So I kinda had a sibling growing up, my cousin.
Daniel:We're almost the same age, though I don't have a lot of memories of that time in my life. But, so living in my grandparents' house, Mexican family, my grandfather and grandmother immigrated here as adults. They they never really learned English, so my wife will tell you that my grandmother pretended she didn't know English, because apparently, when no one else was around, it was just my wife and my grandmother, she apparently spoke quite a bit of English. But none of us knew that growing up. So anyway, growing up speaking only Spanish in the home, with my grandparents, my mom and my aunt, my cousin.
Daniel:And my, my grandmother would tell you that she that she was a Catholic, her whole life. I've I never saw her go to church unless it was a wedding or baptism of some kind. But for her whole life, she would tell you she's a Catholic. I never saw her praying. I never saw her with a rosary, and then my grandfather would say he was an atheist.
Daniel:And he would say it pretty aggressively, which made him a pretty unusual Mexican. Right? Because not that many Mexicans will be aggressively atheist. They most of them, if they if they are atheist, will just kinda play along and just not not stir the pot. Right?
Daniel:Mhmm. But he was ready to challenge people and to to, take people to the mat who said they were Christians and try to, you know, humiliate them for their belief. And, and, and so my, I grew up, not really ever, but he didn't do that to me as little kid, and I never saw this little kid. So I grew up with God. Not a part of my life at all.
Daniel:My my mom is agnostic. So so I grew up with God just God just wasn't a part of my life. There was no Bible in the home. There was no no church on TV. There was no no church on Sundays, no church on Easter, no church at Christmas.
Daniel:So it just was not a part of my life. And then that stayed this when my mom married my dad, my my with the guy I call my dad, Hedley, Jeffrey Hedley, He adopted me when I was 5, which is why my name changed. So my birth name was Ignacio Perches, and my name got changed to Daniel Ignacio Hedley when he adopted me. And, so he also, I think most of his life, I think if he's listening to this podcast at some point, I don't think he would be mad angry with me for saying he was an atheist, but he might say he he might say he's atheist agnostic. I don't know how how extreme he would go with that.
T.J.:You'll find out later.
Daniel:Yeah. So, but, nevertheless, he continued that same he wasn't aggressive like my grandfather, though. So he was not an aggressive person that way. But, but he it's the same thing. God was not a part of our lives when my parents got married.
Daniel:No Bibles in the house, no church anytime of the year. We didn't talk about God. We did not talk about God. Right? It wasn't like we didn't talk about God negatively.
Daniel:We didn't talk about God positive. We just didn't talk about God. So in that way, it's true. Atheism because God was not present. Does that make sense?
T.J.:Yeah.
Daniel:Because, like, aggressive atheism is sort of like against it's sort of against atheism in a way because you're making too big of a deal of God. Like, if you're really atheist, why talk about God at all? Right? And and that's the kind of atheism I live. It just God did not exist.
Daniel:And so I really only ever heard about God through ads on TV, like Christmas commercials. I didn't have any Christian friends that I knew about growing up. None of my friends talked about church growing up at school. None of my friends talked about Jesus growing up. I had 0 friend I if I if you had asked me when I was 16 years old, which of your friends go to church, I would not have.
Daniel:Wow. And if you had asked me which ones are your friend what what who of your friends are Christians, I would not have known. And if you had asked me who is Jesus, I would have said some guy who lived a long time ago. And then you and if you said, what do you know about Jesus? I'd say, he was some guy who lived a long time ago.
Daniel:And he's in the Bible somewhere. And I would not have known where the Bible because I had never picked up a Bible in my entire life. So it wasn't until I was at a party in high school. And this was like, the kind of party that I was going to these days. There was a lot of high school, a lot of alcohol, right, at this party.
Daniel:And there was this really beautiful redhead sitting at the party, and I saw her from across the room. And this is in El Paso. Like, 80% of the population is Mexican. Okay? So a redhead is, like, really unusual.
Daniel:Okay? So this is redhead across the room, like, woah. She's beautiful. So I'm like a moth to the flame. I just, like, find my way over to her and introduce myself.
Daniel:And within within seconds, if not, I think seconds of meeting her, she made it clear that her name was Melissa, and she was a Christian, and there was no way I was gonna talk to her without talking about Jesus. Mhmm. Period. Like, it was instant. I mean, it was like, we're at an we're at this and all of a sudden, we're at this party, we're having this philosophical conversation about who God is.
Daniel:What is God and all of this? And so I'm, like, really? Okay.
T.J.:That's interesting. So you weren't discouraged. You didn't duck your head and walk away.
Daniel:No. I thought it was cool. I had never talked about it with anybody. I was I thought it was awesome. I was like, hey, here's somebody who actually has an opinion and it's different than mine.
Daniel:And she seems to know what she's talking about. Like, that sounds cool. Let's talk. So I thought it was really fascinating.
T.J.:And she was a redhead, which was And
Daniel:she was really pretty.
T.J.:In El Paso. Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel:Yeah. Exactly. So we, we talked the whole party, like, the whole night. And then I asked for her number and she said she said, I'll give you my number. But but you have to know that we will continue this conversation.
Daniel:And I said, Okay. And so I called her up. And, I think the next day, and right away, we're back in the conversation. And it took her I mean, she learned within minutes of talking, but I didn't know the Bible. And so, you know, we were talking back and forth.
Daniel:She was telling me about what the gospel is, who is Jesus, who is God, what is the Holy Spirit, blah, blah, blah. And I'm thinking this is like I feel I felt like I had met someone from another planet. Like, this is a fantasy world. Like, what is this weird fantasy land? Tell me more about this weird story you have.
Daniel:And, and I it was, like, a couple days of talking to her, she said, look. She said she said, I'm afraid you're just talking to me because you think I'm pretty and you just wanna date me. She's like, just so you know, like, we're talking about this, like this, like, this is what our relationship is about. I'm like, okay, cool. And so she said, and if you want to keep talking to me, you need to get a Bible.
Daniel:And and I and I said I said, alright. So she took me to a Bible store. I didn't even know there were Bible stores. Right? So we went to a Bible store.
Daniel:I took her exotic car. She so we went to a Bible store, and she helped me pick a Bible as an NIV. Was an NIV Bible. And I don't have that one anymore. That's another story about that one, by the way, that Bible.
Daniel:So I bought it and I and it was expensive. I was like, oh, why are the Bible so expensive? It's like leather bound, you know, the gold. It's like, it was something like $50 back in 1992. Right?
Daniel:Like, what is happening? But I had money because I what did I do? Remember, I install a car stereo systems. Remember that?
T.J.:Right.
Daniel:So I had money. I had my own. So I bought this Bible and then she and then she paid to have my name in gold letters put on
T.J.:it. Alright.
Daniel:And then, and so then I started reading it. And so she said she said, okay, you need to read Matthew first. And so I read Matthew. And every day, I called her with questions. I'm like, this is so weird.
Daniel:Like, it was just weird. Everything about it was strange. And at first, I was mocking. I thought it was dumb and silly and weird. But then every time I had a question, she had an answer.
Daniel:I thought, oh, well, I guess that's not dumb. Like, that's a reasonable answer. Okay. So then I got through Matthew, and she said, well, now you need to read Romans. I said, okay.
Daniel:So I read so I, again, started Romans. I was asking her questions as I was going, all on the phone, and she was answering my questions. Asking questions as I was going, all on the phone, and she was answering my questions. And then by the end of Romans, it was a Tuesday, I believe, in November, I think. I don't know.
Daniel:I was 16. And I was sitting I had sitting on the edge of my bed. I'd finished reading my Bible for the night. And I sat down on the edge of my bed. And I said, Oh, Melissa's right.
Daniel:And I was like, And that means I'm wrong. Okay. And there was that moment where I thought, I have to make a decision. And my and then as I said, and literally my this, I'm sharing my dialogue with God, right now. Well, this is right.
Daniel:That means I'm wrong. Okay. I guess I'm a Christian now. That was it. That was my conversion, and I went to bed.
Daniel:And I woke up the next morning, and I started telling all my friends at school about Jesus. And my friends are like my friends, like, I thought you were an atheist. I was, like, I was yesterday, and I'm not anymore. Let me tell you why.
T.J.:So this was a, this was a 16 year old discipling another 16 year old.
Daniel:Yeah. Where's Melissa now? I haven't talked to her in years. That that so we ended up dating. Yeah.
Daniel:And then she ended up moving to Hawaii with her family. And then and this is before her cell phone. So I lost touch with her. We ended we ended up dating for, like, 2 months. She moved to Hawaii with her family right after that.
Daniel:I didn't see her again for almost 2 years, and she was in town one day, and I didn't know she was in town. Also, my phone rings. I answer the phone, and then this time, I'm living alone. My mom had moved out. I was taking care of my mom's house, and I've been by myself at 18.
Daniel:She calls, and I'm, like, woah, Melissa. She's, like, yeah. I'm in town. Can I come by and say hi? Like, sure.
Daniel:So she came over, and she said, I just wanted to see you. I wanted to see if you were still a Christian or if you just did that for me. And I said I said, look, I liked you a lot, but I didn't like you that much. I was like I was like, it's real. Because what she didn't know is that becoming a Christian meant my grandfather never stopped telling me how dumb that was that I was a Christian now.
Daniel:I was the single stupidest thing I could have ever done. How disappointing it was, and how it was hard. It was becoming a Christian in my family was hard. And it was hard right away. Because also because I was stupid.
Daniel:And I didn't share my faith in very tactful ways. So I was just too excited, and, and, and my family was like, who do you think you are telling us all this stuff that you know better than we do? And, I had zero tact. So, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it was my fault.
Daniel:But on the other hand, it also was a a real challenge as a young believer. So I became a Christian, didn't have a church, and, I'd and I tried to be a solo Christian for the 1st year of my year and a half of my Christian life, and that really wasn't working out well for me. I was really struggling.
T.J.:Yeah. What was that like? Brand new disciple.
Daniel:Just read my Bible every day. I I did the I practiced bibliomancy. That's where you take your Bible and you just open it at random and expect God to answer your questions of your life. Okay. You know, close your eyes and point to something.
Daniel:You know, like, I didn't know how to read the Bible. I didn't know what I was reading. Right? I just knew that I need to read this thing because the words of life are here. So I just did my best to try to understand.
Daniel:I didn't know what I was doing. I had I had been going to a church I didn't tell you this. I had I had started going to a church as an atheist observer before I met Melissa, because one of my friends was was mom his mom was making him go to church, and he said, could he, he asked me if I'll just go in just to, like, heckle with him in the back, sitting in the back. And so when we first started going, he and I would just heckle him back the whole time. Just didn't even pay attention at all.
Daniel:When I became a Christian, I went to that same church the following Sunday, sat down in the same place I was sat down. And after the service, this is the First Trinity Church of the Nazarene, and they're no longer there in El Paso. They're building closed. The pastor came up to me, and I can't remember his name. I had been a Christian all of 3 days.
Daniel:Right? 4 days. He pulled me aside after the service. He said, Daniel, what happened? And I said, I'd be a Christian.
Daniel:And he goes, so yeah. I can see it. And that just I I remember being, like, what? How could he know? But yeah.
Daniel:Yeah. But I was so embarrassed about being a Christian. Now that I had gone to church with my friend who wasn't a Christian, we had spent all that time heckling. I was too embarrassed to go back because he was there, And so I stopped going.
T.J.:Even after that interaction?
Daniel:Yeah.
T.J.:Because that could have gone sideways really quick.
Daniel:Yeah. Yeah. But I also I, you know, I started I started parting ways with those friends little by little. I had a little detour when I was, 18. I had a little detour, back into that world of El Paso is not your normal place.
Daniel:There aren't very many places in the country where you could go, at 16 years old, in Mexico and and party at a bar and then come back the next day. So when you grow up in El Paso, you know, you start partying at bars in Mexico at age 15, 16. By the time I got to college, I didn't care anymore about partying. I was done. Like, by the time I got to college, people are just discovering partying.
Daniel:I was, like, man, I started that at 15. Like, I'm I'm doing school now. Like, you guys are wasting your money. Like, you have to pay for this. What are you what are you doing partying now?
Daniel:Like, I I got that out of my system in high school. So, but, you know, the thing is that, you know, it was hard. Like, it was hard. Like, looking in looking back, I see the goodness and the graciousness of God with how patient God was with me, having no one in my family no one in my family to guide me, no friends that knew Jesus, except for Melissa, who moved away 2 months after I became a Christian.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Daniel:And here I am, with a real living relationship with God, and I have no one to talk to about it. Because the one church that I could go to, I felt so embarrassed to go to because my friend was always there. And he would now I was gonna be the one he heckled. Yeah. Just like he heckled everyone else.
Daniel:Like, I used to heckle them with him.
T.J.:Here, we will pause the Faith Journey with Daniel Headley, and pick up the rest in the next episode. If you enjoy faith journeys like Daniel's, follow and subscribe on Cumberland Road, on Apple, and Spotify, or your favorite podcasting site. In closing, Tony Bernhard, an author of the books of How to be Sick and How to Wake Up and How to Live, she wrote, people can be at their most vulnerable, but still be tenacious at the same time. Thank you for listening.
