Daniel Ignacio Headley - (Pt. 2) Mechanical Engineering, Becoming Christian, & Faith In The Workplace
You're listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinovsky. In this episode, I continue my faith conversation with Daniel Headley as he continues his search to find people and a place to help him understand this new religion that he has claimed. Daniel is meticulous and brave in his search, asking questions, visiting congregations, ultimately, where his journey leads him into a school of theology, a seminary, and a call into ministry. Here is the second half of my faith conversation with Daniel Headley.
Daniel:So, yeah, the first couple years of my Christian life were were weird. You know, honestly, it's like a grace it's like a a haze in my life. I don't remember a lot of it. I feel like I was kind of fumbling around, not knowing what it meant to be a follower of Christ, but knowing that I was a follower of Christ. And then after I took that stupid detour back into that party world, my senior year in my 1st semester my 1st semester in college, I actually I called my friends up.
Daniel:So I I was living alone. My mom had moved out to live with her boyfriend, who then she ended up marrying, My my stepdad, and I was taking care of her house for her. So I was living by myself in my mom's house. And so I was I remember I was standing in my mirror in my bathroom looking at the mirror, and I was 18 years old, living alone, completely alone, right? And I was staring in the mirror, and I thought, I hate myself.
Daniel:What am I doing? I say I know Jesus, and yet, I'm wasting my life, and I don't see that this is going anywhere, good. And so I left the bathroom. I picked up the phone, and I called my friends, and I said, guys, it's over for me. Like, you're never gonna see me.
Daniel:I'm not part of that world anymore. I'm going I'm going to see what it means to be a follower of Christ. And my friends are like, dude, just come over and smoke a joint and tell us about it. Like, no, That's what I'm not gonna do. No.
Daniel:Like, that's exact it's like, this phone call is it. I've never seen any of those guys ever again. So in one phone one phone call, I parted ways with all of my friends.
T.J.:How hard was that?
Daniel:It was hard, and it was freeing. I mean, they were they were my only friends, and they were good friends. Like, we did stupid things together, but they were good friends. And in hindsight, I wish I could have been stronger. I wish I could have, but I couldn't.
Daniel:I did the best I could. I wish I could say that I could be their friend and not be in that world of drug use and and alcohol consumption. And I wish I could say that I could have been both I could have been their friend and been separate. But at that time of my life, I couldn't have Today, I could have. Like, today, I could be friends with them.
Daniel:If they were if we were in the same town, I could go hang out with them. I could handle that. But as a young Christian with no no support system, no foundation in my faith, I did the only thing that I could have done, which is turn my back entirely on so I had I was I was I was I was a weirdo in my family. And I had no friends. So I walked so here's the one thing I knew.
Daniel:I knew Melissa went to Jesus Chapel West when she was here, and when she was living in El Paso. So I drove over to Jesus Chapel West on Sunday, and I thought, this was Melissa's church, so I guess it's okay. And so I started going to Jesus Chapel West, and, it was a highly charismatic church, like, very charismatic church, you know, being people being slain in the spirit, you know, barking in the aisles. Right? Like the works, right?
Daniel:I have never spoken in tongues in the way in which those people feel that is manifested. I have never exhibited the gifts of the spirit in a way that that crowd of people would say is valid. And I went to that church for about 2 years. And I worshipped there, right? I, I learned what it was to love to really love God with those people.
Daniel:And it was awesome. It was great. And when I was in college, this is now college. I so then I saw that I I needed friends and I needed a community. So I was on, I would go to Juice Apple West, and then I that was my 1st year in college.
Daniel:2nd year, I did, master student exchange. I went to Chico, California for a year. So I was in Chico, California. I was like, I gotta find people now, so I found a church. I started going to a Baptist church there, and I found, Campus Crusade for Save for Christ.
Daniel:I'd never heard of them before, but I was like, there are Christians on campus. I need that. So I started meeting with them, and then, and then I and then and the 2 campus ministers for crusade, they had a men's bible study they had posted. And so I showed up, And only I showed up. No other guys, the whole chemist ministry showed up.
Daniel:And they, and so the 1st week, I was the only one there. And the guys, guys said, well, we'll just do a Bible study with you because you're the only one here. Next week, I was the only one there. Next week, I was the only one there. This was a big campus ministry.
Daniel:So for a whole semester, I got both of the staff workers to be my personal mentors, and I was the only person that came to Bible study.
T.J.:So you went from a period of accepting Jesus Christ with no guidance and such big obstacles in terms of of growth, you know, inner spiritual growth in a relationship. And now fast forward a couple years and you're seeking out these opportunities, and you're receiving. Right. But, man, you talk about a period of vulnerability of as an early disciple, I mean I mean, that relationship could have gone either way. Yeah.
T.J.:Especially when you stripped yourself of the few remaining not few. Sorry. That makes it sound really bad.
Daniel:It wasn't very But
T.J.:the remaining for example. Yeah. The remaining loyal friends that you had, you actually stepped away from those relationships.
Daniel:Yeah.
T.J.:That could have been a really dark maybe it was a really dark place.
Daniel:It was really dark. It was really dark. My mom, I used to write poetry then. And one day my mom, I saw her. I came in my room and she was going through, for some reason, going through some of my papers.
Daniel:And she was in tears reading my poems. And she didn't understand that they were poems of hope. She only saw despair. But she didn't she would read David's Psalms of Lament and only see despair. She could not see the hope in David's Psalms of Lament.
Daniel:And just like she could not read my poems of lament and grief and see the hope behind them, she was just all she saw was this God thing is killing my son and making him a depressed maniac.
T.J.:Did you talk about it?
Daniel:Yeah. Yeah. I've tried over the years. She's made it clear that she's not interested
T.J.:and
Daniel:that I should stop. She has directly asked me to stop, to not talk about it with her anymore. So I have to I have to, model with my life. Right? Preach preach the gospel without words.
T.J.:Her son is a minister.
Daniel:Yeah. Oh, this is funny thing you say that. Let me show you something. So right over here, So my dad's side, my adopted dad's side. I learned this later in life.
Daniel:Recently, like, in the last 5 years. I adopted dad's, side.
T.J.:So for those who are listening, Daniel was walking me through his house. I'm getting a tour of the house, but he's you're looking for a book. Right? Okay. Here we go.
Daniel:This one is The Song of Our Syrian Guest by William Allen Knight. A Christmas secret, William Allen Knight. No Room in the Inn, William Allen Knight. On the Way to Bethlehem, William Allen Knight. And a lovely find, same author.
Daniel:My great great grandfather, on my adoptive side, was William Allen Knight, And he, he wrote these books and others. This one this book right here this is one of the early editions. I've been looking for them little by little on Amazon. This one was published in 1907. Wow.
Daniel:I like there's a part of he was a he was a, congregational minister in Framingham, Massachusetts. And I like to think that the prayers of of that man somehow are part of my story. I don't know how. I also recently learned from my mom that my great great grandmother was very serious about her faith. And I'd like to think that her prayers somehow play a part.
Daniel:But, yeah, how do these miracles happen? It's amazing.
T.J.:How did how did you go from Campus Crusade
Daniel:Oh, yeah.
T.J.:In a
Daniel:very So
T.J.:very charismatic church?
Daniel:Yeah. So funny. So I so when I was at Chico State, I changed my major from biology to mechanical engineering. Well, I changed it. I stayed biology in Chico State.
Daniel:And then coming back, I knew I was going to switch to mechanical engineering. And so I switched schools from UTEP University of Texas, El Paso, to New Mexico State in Las Cruces 40 miles away. Because they have a well, I'm sorry for our El Paso listeners. They have a better engineering school. Sorry.
Daniel:So I switched schools. And, and not that not that you tips a bad student at school. Just state's got a little
T.J.:It's already out there, Daniel.
Daniel:I know. It's already
T.J.:out there.
Daniel:So I switched to school, moved moved to Las Cruces. And, again, I needed community. So I get to Las Cruces. Oh, as I'm leaving Chico State, I asked the staff workers. I said, hey, I'm going to go to Las Cruces next.
Daniel:Can you please look up, the Capture Crusade at Las Cruces and get me names so I can contact them as soon as I get there? So they're digging around, can't find anyone. There's no they're like, I'm sorry. I think there's no crusade there. We can't find it.
Daniel:It. Okay. Alright. Fine. I'll see what happens.
Daniel:So new student orientation. I'm looking around for campus ministries, and I find InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, and, I get to know some folks there at the table. This is, like, a new student fair. So somehow, I I saw the InterVarsity table before I saw the crusade table. Table.
Daniel:So I'm talking to people in varsity. I'm talking specifically to Daryl Wilson, the staff worker there. And I find out that, you know, I'd never heard of InterVarsity Fellowship, but I was like, oh, okay, cool. Sounds interesting. And then I said and I said, yeah, I used to be with Campus Crusade for Christ, but I heard they don't have a chapter here.
Daniel:And Daryl said, are you kidding? He said, their chapter is 10 times the size of InterVarsity. He said it's I said it's like 280 students. And I and I looked at Daryl and I said, okay, that means I'm staying with you. Because I said because I said, if if I asked and they researched and they couldn't find a chapter of 280 students, I'm going to say this is God, and I'm going to stick with InterVarsity, even though it was just 25 students.
Daniel:So, so I switched to InterVarsity, and I still visited the crusade chapter on occasion. But Daryl Wilson became a mentor of mine. And he's an unusual he was an unusual staff worker because he was an ordained Presbyterian minister. And, you know, most most campus staff workers, unless you're like RUF, most of them are not or date, like MDiv ministers. Right?
Daniel:So he, he became my mentor, and I just peppered him with questions. Just I mean, called him at all hours of night, panic attack, like, freaking out that I'm gonna lose my salvation. I called him at 3 in the morning one time. I thought I was, like, for sure gonna lose my salvation. And he's like, Daniel.
Daniel:Daniel. You're crying about possibly losing your salvation. I said, Yeah, I'm just I know I'm gonna lose my salvation. He's like, Okay, just ask me this question. How do you feel about losing your salvation?
Daniel:I was like, I'd be devastated. He's like, then you're not gonna lose your salvation. He's like, if you care that much, it's not a problem for you. He's like, that's not you. Maybe somebody else, but you're okay.
Daniel:He's like, talk to you tomorrow. It's 3 o'clock in the morning. So what a great guy.
T.J.:He was
Daniel:a godsend. He was a godsend. And then he left, after a year and a half, I think, to go do other things. And then we ended we ended up we we students ended up, just keeping InterVarsity going on our own without a staff worker for, for a year and a half. And we kept kept it, kept it alive, kept our chapter, you know, registered and all that and had our weekly meetings and everything.
Daniel:I I started learning how to play music. I started helping out with music at my so I started going to I kept going to, Jesus' Chapel West in El Paso one Sunday because I was I had to drive back to El Paso. Then the alternate Sunday, I would go to Calvary Baptist because I had gone to a Baptist church at Chico State, but then I also started going to a Presbyterian church because they're all super Presbyterian. So on on my Sundays where I was in Las Cruces, I would do the Baptist church early service, Presbyterian church second service, and then the other Sundays, I was in El Paso. The alternate Sunday, I'd go to Cheesebo West.
Daniel:And then and then I would go to InterVarsity on Tuesdays, Campus Crusade on Thursdays, Newman Center, the Catholic Unit Center on Wednesdays, and I would go to RUF on Fridays or something. So I was doing all Oh, and I went to the Wesley Student Center regularly. So I was doing 5 different campus ministries, 3 different churches. And, and then one day, one of the campus ministers pulled me aside. He's like, Dan he's the RUF campus minister, Mike Piggs.
Daniel:He pulled me aside. He's like, Daniel, I hate to say this, but, like, you may have too too much too much of this in your life. He's, like, you need to you need to kinda, like, focus and narrow it down and, like, really invest yourself in one place, you know. You're just everywhere. Yeah.
Daniel:And and he's
T.J.:he So let me interrupt you. I I I do wanna hear the response, but I wanted to ask you, why? Are you looking for something?
Daniel:Oh, I mean, that you went from I was just trying to catch up for lost time.
T.J.:Okay. Because you went from 0 to a100. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's who I am.
Daniel:I'd take it to 11. So, yeah. That that wouldn't surprise you, the more you get to know me. So, yeah. That's me.
Daniel:So I and I think I was trying to catch up for lost time, too. You know, I was just trying to and I was taking engineering classes. Right? So I was just, like, I was completely booked.
T.J.:Yeah.
Daniel:But, he said he said, look, I'll sit you down. And I think he said 9. I can't remember anymore. I think he said, I think he said, I'll outline the 9 main issues that Christians have divided over doctrinely over the years. He said, I'll write them down for you.
Daniel:And then you go back and pray and meditate and study and figure out where you stand on these nine issues, then I'll help you figure out where you belong in the body of Christ. I mean, I have just been gifted with the most amazing mentors. And so I did that. He gave me the list of 9. I I went through it.
Daniel:I studied it on my own. And then I set up an interview with the pastors of the churches I was going
T.J.:to. This is so scientific.
Daniel:So I took the 9 questions to the interview with my notepad, and I asked the pastors the 9 questions. You know, what are their positions? And so I took down their answers. The past senior pastor of G Southwest, the senior pastor of University Presbyterian, the senior pastor of Calvary Baptist. When I got to the first one I did, closest to my heart was GC Chapel West.
Daniel:He he grave very graciously answered all my questions. And then at the very end of my interview, he said, Daniel, he said, I just want to warn you that I think your mind is going to lead you astray. And I said, thank you, Steve, and I never went back to that church again.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Daniel:Because I don't think he was right about that. I think he didn't really know me. I mean, I worship with my mind. And so then I I I when I when I met with the Calvary Baptist guy, he went through all my questions. And when we got to baptism, he's like, oh, afterwards, after the interview, I said, so if I were to join here, would I have to be rebaptized?
Daniel:Because I've been baptized at Jesus Chapel West charismatic. And he said, Yeah, of course, you'd have to be rebaptized. I said, Yeah, that's not gonna happen. Like, my baptism is real. Like, I'm not rebaptizing for anybody.
Daniel:So that was the end of that. So then I went to interview with the University Presbyterian minister, and John was so gracious, and and he just sat through all my questions, and he was so delighted by the conversation. He was almost giddy the whole the whole time, just and just just laughing and enjoying the dialogue and enjoying the interview and the interrogation. And I just knew it was my home. I was like, this is my home.
Daniel:And so, so that's where I was during college, University Presbyterian. That was a PCA Presbyterian Church. And then, when I went to the Peace Corps after college, I went to Ghana, West Africa. And while I was there, I had to find a church, right? So I went back to my roots.
Daniel:I found an assembly. There was an Assemblies of God Church that my neighbors would go to. So I so I went to that church with them. And then on the alternate Sundays, I went to the local Presbyterian church.
T.J.:This is great. I'm eating this up.
Daniel:And it was it was fantastic. Wonderful pastors at both churches. So different in in both. And then whenever I was in the big city, I would go to the there was a Catholic church there that I would visit when I was at the big city. I've always been pretty ecumenical as a since I've been a Christian.
Daniel:And I I I can I can worship I can worship our God in any place where God is worshipped, I feel? So, so that was yeah. During Donna, and I would have preached on occasion horrible sermons because because they would ask me to preach out of I don't know. I don't know why they wanted me to preach, but they did. So they were very gracious with me.
Daniel:And and, actually, it was only the Assemblies of God Church that folks had asked me to preach through.
T.J.:Not not those pesky Presbyterians.
Daniel:No. The Presbyterians knew better. They're like, he doesn't look like he does what he's talking about. So so, yeah, the Peace Corps, that was 2 years in West Africa, and that was where I was once again alone. I had to make a new network of friends, so I surrounded myself with friends there, both, Christians and Muslims, and then non believing, non believing Peace Corps volunteers.
Daniel:There were only a few Christians in the Peace Corps, just a few. And honestly, you know, that was a really dark time. Went through a lot of depression there. I was sick a lot. Had malaria 4 times.
Daniel:I was I had food I mean, I was there was 16 months where I threw up about 4 times a week for 16 months. It was just hard. It was really hard. And I pray after after my first two months there, I started asking God if I could go home. And and every day, I asked God if I could go home, and every day, God said no.
Daniel:And and then at one point, after a year, I went down to the main office, and I met with Arne Vanderberg, the only American in the main office. Wonderful man. And I walked into his office, said, Arne, I closed his door. I walked into his office, closed his door. I said, Arne, tell me why I shouldn't quit the Peace Corps today and go back home.
Daniel:He said, is there one person you would stay for? And I said, yes. He said, there's your answer. Dang it.
T.J.:Yeah. That's a tricky question.
Daniel:But he's but it was but it was the right answer. That's tricky. The right answer.
T.J.:That's tricky for a Christian as well.
Daniel:Mhmm. I stayed for Musa. Musa was a boy who grew up in a mus in a Muslim village. He was the only kid who knew English. He had made it an effort on his own to reach out to all the Peace Corps volunteers in his area and got to know them.
Daniel:And because of that, he had learned English. Because of that, he had the only kid in his school that had gone to elementary school, had gone to middle school, because Peace Corps volunteers had paid for it all the way. My wife and I paid for his his high school and his, his university education. And, Moose is a Christian now, but, but, yeah, he comes from a Muslim family, and I stayed for Musa.
T.J.:Yeah. He had, tenacity.
Daniel:We're still friends. We're still friends. Yeah.
T.J.:Just like you?
Daniel:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I made I made other really amazing friends there and, still friends still in contact with them now. But, yeah, I came back and married Bethany.
Daniel:You know, she and I got engaged while I was in West Africa.
T.J.:Is that where you met?
Daniel:No. We met at InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Las Cruces. And, but after I'd been there after I'd been gone for a year, we got engaged, and then we stayed engaged while we were stayed apart while we were engaged. I came back. When I finished my Peace Corps service, I came to live in Albuquerque because that's where Bethany was, and, I wanted to be near her because we're getting married.
Daniel:So I came here and and, tried to find work and a new community, started going to her church, Hope Evangelical Free Church, and, made that my home church here in Albuquerque. And, yeah, they were really gracious to let me lead small group classes you know, Sunday small group classes, bible studies. Bethany and I have been leading small groups since we've been married. And so that's been 20 years now. And, I I would I would I led small groups in in college too.
Daniel:So that's God just put me in that role. Yeah. God's had me in that role for a long time. I I guess, like, I've been doing that for, you know, 20 some years. And, it was at oh, what I didn't tell you that's a funny thing I didn't tell you.
Daniel:When I was 18 years old I had when I was 18, I knew that I would go to seminary someday, but I didn't know when.
T.J.:So we're going back to your very young disciple and kind of learning on your own, trying to find that community of faith. Create it if you can, find it preferably
Daniel:Actually, I wasn't yeah. I wasn't 18. Sorry. I remember not better. But keep going.
Daniel:Yep.
T.J.:Okay. Yeah. Well, when I'm wrong, that's when you stop me. And and so you had this concept in terms of education, at least, seminary.
Daniel:Yeah. So I learned that in in Chico State. That's where I live. I remember now. It was talking with those guys that were mentoring me.
T.J.:How did you know what how did you know what seminary was?
Daniel:Oh, they told me because of my questions. My these guys I was asked, I was drilling every week. They're like, you need to go to seminary.
T.J.:Oh, okay. Yeah.
Daniel:Yeah. And then and then when they explained to me what it was, I thought, I first I didn't like, I didn't know that was a thing. And second, I thought, yes, that's where I will go someday. But I didn't at the time. That wasn't on my radar at the time.
Daniel:I was like, not now. Now I'm doing this. It's funny. It never occurred to me to trans I transferred to I went to 3 schools for my undergrad. It never occurred to me to go to a Bible college.
Daniel:Like, I was going to be an engineer. I was either gonna be a medical doctor or an engineer, one or the other. And so but it never occurred to me to go to Bible college at that time. But I knew someday I would go to seminary off the path. And so when Bethany and I had, it was, like, 2011, and, I had been talking about this since Bethany had known me.
Daniel:I've been talking about somebody who went to seminary since she had known me, and it was 2011. And, my my I had just accepted a promotion at work that would allow me to go get my master's degree in mechanical engineering at any school that I could get into fully funded by my job, but I would owe them the same number of years that they that I did my master's degree back. And so I accepted the promotion to go do that. I was starting to look at schools. It was a Friday that I that I had said, for sure, I'll do it.
Daniel:That Sunday, my pastor started a sermon on on Ruth, and he talks about how, Elimelech, Mahlech, and Achillean take go to Moab, their families fleeing the famine, and they probably had every intention to return when the famine was over, but they died. And and up and when I had accepted that promotion, I told I had accepted it with a condition in my head. I'd said, okay. If I'm going to go down this path, then I'm going to put seminary on hold till I'm 50. 5 as 50 years old, I put a number on it.
Daniel:At 50, I will leave engineering, I'll go to seminary, and I'll do the next thing. Mhmm. And that was about 20 years away. And I and then and then I was sitting there in church, but they died. And then I started talking to God first oh, God started talking to me.
Daniel:And the conversation with the Holy Spirit started that moment, and it went something like this. It was like, you just accepted a position at work that puts you in your workplace till age 50, and that's about 20 years from now. What if you're dead in 20 years? Which, by the way, that's 4 years that's 4 years from now. Like, what if what if you're dead in 20 years?
Daniel:And I and then I thought, yeah, what if I'm dead in 20 years? Like, what if I have this big plan to go to seminary someday when I'm 50, and I don't make it that long? And then I thought, and then and then I felt like God saying, what would you do if you only had 20 years left? And then I told God, this is all there in the sermon, I told God, then I guess I would quit my job and go to seminary. And then God said, quit your job and go to seminary.
Daniel:And I was like, what?
T.J.:And I
Daniel:looked at Bethany, and I said, Bethany, I need to quit. This is in the middle of service. Bethany, I need to quit my job and go to seminary. And she looked at me and she said, it's about time. So then I so that's how that started.
Daniel:So then we started that search down the path to find a seminary and, found Denver Seminary. And in 2013, we left as a family, quit my job. I started taking classes online doing part time, and I just couldn't do it because Bethany Bethany said, give me one thing. Let me have our next baby, and then we can leave. She she said, just give me that.
Daniel:I said, God's okay with that. Cool. We'll do that. So we had our next baby, and then we left in 2013. And and and I got to tell you, that started an adventure of the mind that I could not have foreseen.
Daniel:Like, I could not have possibly guessed beforehand how God would change in seminary. It just blew my mind. My understanding of justice and goodness and the whole vision of what God is trying to do in this world, It I my my understanding of the gospel was so small before seminary. It was so myopic. And being a seminary opened my eyes, well, God opened my eyes while at seminary, to so much more of what God is doing.
Daniel:And I'm not even sure I understand it all yet, but so much more of what God is doing. And, I realized that I ended up changing my view on women in ministry along the way, too. Right?
T.J.:So I
Daniel:was like, oh, and I have a different opinion now on this issue. You know? Oh, and I have a different opinion on eschatology now. You know? I have a different opinion on immigration.
Daniel:I have a different opinion on war. I have a different opinion on, like, so many fundamental on politics. And, like, my my whole construct for politics. You know, pacifism, war questions, you know, that whole dilemma, eschatology, women, on, a lot of fundamental theological questions, like, almost everything you can imagine that like, ecclesiology, polity for the church, like all these things changed. Like, I left a totally, totally different and all of my positions than when I went in.
T.J.:Was that jarring?
Daniel:I mean It was awesome.
T.J.:What words would you share with somebody who's thinking about seminary and they just heard you say how much it transformed you in preparation for ministry? Because it sounds very intimidating.
Daniel:So here's the thing. This is all in the context of I was never able to get a full time job in ministry. I tried for 5 years to get
T.J.:a full time job in ministry and
Daniel:could not get one. That met that that would that would allow me to meet my needs. Some of the job, I had a few offers, but the pay was so small that and they couldn't offer they couldn't offer health insurance, they could not so it was, like, okay, I'm I'm at that at that point, I'm almost 40, or I was 40 at that point. I was, like, I can't do that. I have kids.
Daniel:I've got a wife. Like, no, I can't take that job. So I was not able to find a job that was sustainable, and I've stopped looking at this point. So and I'm the guy who stopped looking and no longer is trying to be pastor. And someone might say, would you still have done it?
Daniel:Like, would you still go to seminary knowing all of that? Like, you think about the opportunity cost. I didn't make my engineer salary for 5 years. Put that in your mind for a second for an opportunity cost. And I spent I spent $70,000 of in, you know, that I just spent, right, going to seminary, like, the cost was, was high to go to seminary, from that perspective.
Daniel:And the answer is, like, I would absolutely do it again. If I knew ahead of time, I don't know if I would do. I don't know if I've done it. I do ahead of time. But knowing what I know now, I would still I would still tell the me, you know, however many years ago that was, 10 years ago, I would have I today, me would tell 10 year old me 10 year younger me, you have to go.
Daniel:You you have to go. You have no idea how you will change.
T.J.:So you went as a full time student. You relocated your family. Mhmm. You had no employment. You were just Yeah.
T.J.:A student.
Daniel:Just a student.
T.J.:So you had that pinpoint focus.
Daniel:Yep. Yeah. I did I did an MDiv in 2 years.
T.J.:And you would do it all over again?
Daniel:Absolutely. No question. When I when I think every now and then, I still ask God, like, why? What was that all about? And the only answer I have ever got from God on that month so far is so that I could get to know God better.
Daniel:That's the answer that I consistently get back from God to get to know God better. And that's worth it.
T.J.:How did you get introduced to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
Daniel:That's a funny one. There was this Adam Kane, pastor at the church I'm at now, hope people join 3 churches with my wife, He had a friend named Justin Richter who was starting something new, and he knew I had an interest in church planting. I had I had been in a church planting residency with the evangelical pre church, and I'd done church planting boot camps with the pre church. And, and he's like, yeah. My friend Justin here in Albuquerque has started something new, and he he needs someone with an organizational brain because he's not very organized.
Daniel:Hey, Justin. You're welcome. And and so that's if Justin wouldn't be able to listen this long. I'm not sure it's a pretty long interview. He may not last as long.
Daniel:He may never hear that line. So
T.J.:Yeah. But it's you. You got you guys go way back.
Daniel:That's true. So he's, like, yeah. He needs someone like you to keep him organized. So, you know, so I met up with Justin. I'd never heard of this nomination before.
Daniel:And he and I are sitting at a coffee shop. He tells me his idea for this thing called cloud and bridge, and I just busted out laughing. I was like, I'm sorry. What did you say? Cloud and Bridge?
Daniel:He goes, Yeah. I was like, Are you sure this isn't the pub? He's like, No, Cloud and Bridge. I'm like, alright. He's and, and and he and I instantly got along.
Daniel:We were friends. I mean, immediately friends. And so as so I thought, well, I had just had a horrible experience with the Evangelical Free Church in Colorado. And, and so I, you know, we're leaving that situation. It's very painful for our family.
Daniel:And I thought, you know, this at least will be fun. You know, at least I like this guy, and it'll be you know, it's it doesn't pay anything. I was volunteering to help him out, but I was like, at least it'll be fun while I figure out what God has us doing next. Because at that point, we were coming back to Albuquerque with our tails between our legs, with no money in the bank, having just been horribly burned by, the denomination that I had invested so much time in, and it was just really painful. We're back there now.
Daniel:It's kinda funny how things go, but, but that's because of Bethany's calling. So that that's a different story. But,
T.J.:so anyway You you finished with your seminary degree at this point?
Daniel:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was done.
Daniel:So so he introduced me to this nomination. And because I'm a church quality guy, you know, I did this weird thing. Where is it? It's somewhere around here. I read the confession.
Daniel:Because I think I find things like that interesting. And and I was like, this thing, this church is cool. I was like, Man, this is awesome. I love these people. I don't even know these people, but I love these people.
Daniel:The statement of faith and that thing just where is it? I got it on my shelf somewhere anyway. It blew my mind. I thought it was an amazing document. So I decided I liked the the covenant.
Daniel:Sorry, the committee say, Kevin, that I'm looking at other books and get my words are getting stuck in my head.
T.J.:Yeah. And and just for perspective for those who are listening, it's not that, Daniel can't find it. It's there, but behind him as we're talking is you know, I can see, you know, maybe 200 books, and that's not all of the bookshelf. So
Daniel:Yeah. It's it's somewhere in there. Anyway, it's a it's a skinny book, so it's hard to spot. But the that document really impressed me and made me wanna know more about the Cumberland, the Cumberland Press Trade Denomination. And the more I studied it, the more I really appreciated the simplicity.
Daniel:I don't know. I'm not gonna lie. It was purely a doctrinal, interest. Like, I just like, Wow, this is great. I really like this.
Daniel:Like, I can honestly say, like, when I was doing my church quality classes, you know, the, you know, the the theology class quality and all that stuff over at, Memphis yeah, we were at MTS, weren't we? Yeah, I think we were at MTS. You know, it's funny. Your teachers may say something like, Well, you may not agree with everything here. Like, no.
Daniel:I actually agree with everything here. I'm like, no. I actually like this. It's a great document. I think I actually agree with everything here, Weirdly enough, but about the only thing that I that I that I ever had reservation with that I had no trouble submitting to is I'm a little looser on baptism.
Daniel:Like, I'm all I'm all for, the saints baptizing each other. Right, you know, and not restricting that.
T.J.:Oh, who administers the
Daniel:Yeah, who administers? Yeah, I baptized both of my kids that that was one gift that I had being part of the evangelical free church. I was allowed to baptize my own children, and that was a real gift for me to be able and a gift a gift to them. So, you know, that was one of those things where, that's a mild I know it's funny. People have killed each other over baptism questions.
Daniel:So when I say that's mild, I realize that church history wise, it's not mild. It's a big deal. But for me, it's mild in the sense that I'm willing to I'm willing to submit the cover of the denomination on that issue. You know, I have no problems with it. But really, honestly, it was a it was the doctrine that got me was like, this is this is great.
Daniel:And honestly, it's so balanced. It it really surprises me that Cumberland that the Cumberland Church is not bigger. And more and more well known and more popular because I think it's beautiful. Like, like, why don't more people see that this is beautiful? Why is this why do so few of us see that this is beautiful?
Daniel:It's beautiful.
T.J.:Well, maybe the medium theology doesn't appeal to everyone.
Daniel:The middle way is boring. You can't be Presbyterian and Armenian. It's like, yes, I can't be.
T.J.:You're very active. Well, you're serving as a chair of the admissions committee of Presbytery Del Cristo. Other presbyteries call them board of missions.
Daniel:Okay.
T.J.:Just different names, same role and responsibility. What have you gathered from serving on the missions committee? And and what do you think that you've given?
Daniel:So I also serve in the missions board of the church that we're attending. Mhmm. Some of so I've served on 2 missions boards. I would my my greatest passion for missions has always been, and I know that people who do missiology hate this, or maybe maybe not all of them hate this, but some of them definitely do. I've heard I've heard them.
Daniel:I've heard people not like what I say. I really think that God calls all of us to be missionaries. And I know, like I said, people who are people who leave their culture and go to another part of the world, to relocate themselves to be missionaries, they feel like, no, that's different. You can't all be missionaries. We are missionaries, we left our comfort, we left our world, and we went somewhere else.
Daniel:I'm like, sure, that doesn't that mean that means that your calling as a missionary was to leave your culture and leave your people and go somewhere else. But my calling as a missionary can be to stay right here where I am. And to live out live out the mission that God has given me right here. So I have I have because of my transfer, I came to Christ from the ministry of a girl who was being a real missionary in her city, like 100 percent to an to an unreached person. Like, I was just as unreached as anybody else.
Daniel:I'd never heard the gospel. I didn't have a Bible in my house. Never been to church. So, you know, I would like to see Christians have a better sense of that. And to really feel like we are all called, and we are all sent.
Daniel:There aren't just a few who are sent. The great commission is for every single follower of Jesus. It's not just for some. And and that's where I feel like I I would like to be able to communicate that more effectively. Sometimes, I feel like missions programs, missions committees, boards, I feel like it can sometimes contribute to this idea that missions happens out there.
Daniel:And it's done by someone else, but not by me. And and, and I would like for that to change.
T.J.:Having the mission field be in the same ground that you're standing on.
Daniel:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't there is no it's scary as it is. You know, the the the life of following Jesus is a life that says we don't ever get to turn it off.
Daniel:Right? It's always we're always called. And, it just and we're always called right where we are. I say that as if I live it perfectly, and I don't. But that's something I firmly believe.
T.J.:And some are called to be the same missionary in other places.
Daniel:Absolutely. Absolutely. Some are called to leave and go. And some are called to Jerusalem, some are called to Judea, some are called to Samaria, some are called to the ends of the world.
T.J.:You are called to Albuquerque.
Daniel:Apparently so. I tried to leave. I literally applied to jobs all over the world. I'm not kidding. Like, I I searched for jobs.
Daniel:I was applying. I have applied to more than a 100 positions. That's a time consuming process. You may essays I've written for job application. I mean, some of these churches require some serious essays.
Daniel:The longest I ever the longest job application I ever filled out was 20 pages of writing that I wrote just to get my foot in the door for the application. Like like, man, that's a lot of work. Wow.
T.J.:That's a that's a big wall to climb.
Daniel:I know.
T.J.:Daniel, you wrote to me, I am unafraid of the post Christian world we are entering. Rather, I find it exhilarating. It is like a much needed fresh slate. Mhmm. What does that mean?
Daniel:So I'm not a Bible Belt Christian. Right? I've been a Christian in El Paso, Texas, which for those of for those who don't know Texas, El Paso is hardly it's still part of Texas, but it's not like the rest of Texas. And, and in New Mexico, New Mexico is not like Arizona, and non believing home on my biological side and my and my, adoptive side. And I was a Peace Corps volunteer.
Daniel:Right? And I'm an
T.J.:engineer.
Daniel:In my early Christian life, I followed I took an evangelism explosion class. You ever take that class?
T.J.:I have. Yeah.
Daniel:Yeah. And, you know, and I and I always thought, you know, I just if I just get people to go through all these questions, if I can get them through the whole process, they're going to walk out a Christian. You know? And what I discovered was, when I would try that with people, I could never finish the questions. Because people had people had so many different ways they wanted to go or they were not willing to believe any fundamental principles that I thought were fundamental.
Daniel:And then I had to remember, it's like, I didn't use to push those things. Like, that's not where I come from. And, and, it's funny how I had to becoming a Christian, I fled so rapidly from the world. Yeah. I told you about my experience fleeing, literally fleeing from the dangerous world that I was a part of.
Daniel:And for for so long, I cloistered myself in the church. You know, when you do 4 or 5 campus ministries and 3 churches, it turns out you don't have much time for anything else. Right? So for much of my Christian life, I was cloistered in the church. And yet God still had me working in this secular world.
Daniel:God still had me involved with my with my unbelieving family. And so it's like I was trying to live in this, this, this cloistered church world, and yet I was God had me, God had me in the world. And everything that I was trying to do to meet and connect with the people in the world wasn't working. Right. When I tried to bring the church version of God, to the secular world, it didn't work.
Daniel:It just that the gears didn't match that the worldviews didn't align. And I couldn't, I couldn't connect with people. And when I when I, and over time, I just kept working on it, thinking through it, and a friend of mine who died in 2013, a brilliant engineer, one of the smartest people I've ever known, an atheist, He and I started made a friendship, and, and we went through tons of questions. He asked questions. He would just pepper me with questions.
Daniel:So after question, after question, question, what do you mean about this and why you believe that this and why? And shortly before he died, he said some. So when I when I I gave my employer 11 months notice that I was going to quit my job and go to 7th grade 11 months, you heard me right.
T.J.:That's generous.
Daniel:Yeah. And so during that time, you know, I was taking classes still. And I was, you know, people were coming by my office throughout that level period. Some of them were like, what are you doing quitting your job? Like, someone would say, man, that's really awesome that you're doing it.
Daniel:And I was shortly before Carlos died. Carlos one day said, man, he's like, you know, we don't believe the same things. He said, but I gotta say, I really respect that you're willing to quit your job and go study. He said, that's that's meaningful. And I it was largely because of Carlos that I started realizing that I just needed to be me with these people.
Daniel:I have the same intellectual dilemmas, questions, and challenges, and I think through things differently than I've been taught to think through them in church. And I just needed to stop being afraid that if I was me, I would fall off the deep end again, fall off the cliff that I fell into when I was a young Christian without the church. I needed to trust that my mind wouldn't lead me astray like that minister said it would, and that and that God made me the way I was, the way I am. And God wanted me to explore and use the mind that I have and and where he's placed me. And And so being in seminary and being free to think and choosing the seminary I chose, Denver Seminary, gave me that freedom to think and gave me that freedom to say, if I'm gonna reach these people that God has put me around, my peers, I have to just be me with them, Me and a Christian.
Daniel:Me. The whole me. Right? The science me, the engineering me, and and the pastor me. And it's funny.
Daniel:I was I was I had I had a professional mentor a year ago, because I was trying to work through some interpersonal work. I had I was trying to become better at interpersonal skills, and, and I was offered a professional mentor. And she's a wonderful, wonderful person, and and, she mentored me for, I think, I don't know, we had, like, 10 sessions. My and my employer paid for this just to help me be a better a better person. And and I you know, in in meeting her rapidly, she knew I was a Christian, I was a mentor, I thought I was a pastor, minister, and, and she, as we were talking more, she was trying to help me learn how to be a better communicator in the workplace.
Daniel:She looked at me one day and she said, Daniel, you are never going to really succeed until you learn to be your whole self. She said, you've bifurcated yourself. You're an engineer sometimes, and you're a pastor other times. You are a pastor engineer and an engineering pastor. That's what you are, and you have to be that all the time.
Daniel:And until you can figure out how to be that all the time, you're always gonna struggle. And, I think she's right.
T.J.:Where are you in embracing the whole Daniel?
Daniel:It's I mean, I think it's it's been I've made huge leaps. I think it's still hard. There are still times where I get frustrated that I'm not sometimes I still wonder, it's like, why am I not a pastor full time? Like, why didn't why couldn't I get a job? Sometimes I wonder if it's just that my ego is offended, that nobody wanted me.
Daniel:Or sometimes I wonder if maybe really God didn't want me there. Maybe God really wants me in the workplace with these people that will not go to church, and I'm the only person they're gonna talk to.
T.J.:And you're really good at small groups, worshiping communities.
Daniel:Yeah. We've been leading a worshiping community in our home since we came to Albuquerque. Since I came to Albuquerque. Well, since we came back. Sorry.
Daniel:Since since I came to from since I came to Albuquerque from I have been leading a small group since I came to Albuquerque in 2002, but then, as a married couple, when we came back to Albuquerque after seminary, I started a new group as well, and that group's been going now for about 5 years. Mhmm. It was maybe almost 6 years, so I can't remember anymore. And that's that's kind of like it's kind of like a little house church. The congregation the congregation of our little house church ranges from age 3 to age 72.
Daniel:It's a fascinating group of people that God has put under my care. I'm so thankful for each one of them. They all almost all of them have
T.J.:been hurt by the church in one
Daniel:way or the other. And, God has given me the privilege to shepherd them and to help them heal even as I'm healing simultaneously. So even as I'm healing from my own hurts from the church, God is using me to help them heal from their hurts.
T.J.:And
Daniel:so as I allow myself to openly suffer and mourn and grieve, because I don't hide those things, then I can also be a facilitator for healing for others.
T.J.:What are you reading now? I've been staring in our conversation, I've been staring at at the bookcase behind you.
Daniel:Right now
T.J.:What are you reading?
Daniel:Yeah. Right now, I'm finishing up a book on audible called Making Numbers Count. And I'm also finishing up, well, I just started it. I just I just recently read Single Gay Christian by Gregory Cole's amazing book. Finished that recent Jesus and John Wayne recently read, and and then I'm where, what is that title of that book?
Daniel:Bono's new book is Bono's autobiography. What is that book called again? I just started it, and then I paused, and I need to get back to it. So I've been doing Audible books lately because it's so hard for me to have I work about 11 hours a day on engineering. And so by the time I am done reading something, I just I can't I can't pick up one of those paper books right now.
Daniel:I'm just right? So I've been doing most of my reading audibly. So those are that's what I've been reading lately. Jesus John Wayne. What a book.
Daniel:Man, that was a that was brutal. If you haven't read that one yet, and I highly recommend Single Gate Christian.
T.J.:Closing question. Where do you see God in your life today? Right now. Sometime in the last 24 hours. And seeing can also be experienced, felt.
T.J.:Yeah. The presence.
Daniel:In this well, in this interview, I've been brought to tears several times just remembering the work of God in my life. Mhmm. That's been really encouraging. I see God work, like, this week in my interaction with my young coworker when I hurt his feelings, and we were able to reconcile within minutes. And hopefully hopefully, he feels closer to me because of it.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Daniel:And, I see God and my beautiful children who are so gentle and sweet and and at this vulnerable time in life at 16, 11 years old. I see God in the healing of our, our new dog that we adopted 12 weeks ago, who was living on the streets, and she was malnourished and afraid of everything. And I see her healing emotionally and spiritually, and I see this creature, flourishing because she's loved. And I see God at work there. I see God working through my daughter who's been going through crippling anxiety for 5 months, and she's slowly making steps and healing from that anxiety.
Daniel:And and and through my wife, the way that she leads and teaches in our small group. I see healing there. I see people people being transformed and trusting God again that haven't trusted God in a long time. And I see that trust moving out into their relationships as well.
T.J.:I should've asked you, where don't you see?
Daniel:I was gonna say I see God in sitcoms I watch. I see God in in movies, like, that where people didn't intend to put God.
T.J.:It's a beautiful question though, isn't it? Yeah. Where are we experiencing God's presence right now? It's a centering question, You know? It if we can hear it, it causes you to pause to respond.
T.J.:You know? Mhmm. Keeps me from moving too fast, too quickly.
Daniel:Yeah. I appreciate the question. I really do, and I should ask it to myself more often. Or just, you know, if you think about it, send me a text from you now again. Where do you see God today?
Daniel:Thank you. Thank you, TJ. You sent her for a moment.
T.J.:It is. It's a question. I ask myself that every day, typically in the evening, around this time.
Daniel:Yeah. That's awesome.
T.J.:I'll ask, you know, especially especially on those hard days. They come around every once in a while. Difficult day. Okay. I'm not gonna end this difficult day without exploring where I experienced God, where I felt God, where I saw God, where I knew God was there.
T.J.:Some days are easier than others.
Daniel:Yeah. I appreciate that.
T.J.:But I'm not going to end the day without, you know, just just letting it get the best of me. That's why I asked that question. And I think it helps in our witness as well. Mhmm. Yeah.
T.J.:Like your demeanor. Right? Daniel, the way you absorb and ask questions and exude passion in meetings and in the presence of the other human beings, I have admired every time I'm around you.
Daniel:Oh, thank you.
T.J.:I haven't heard your faith journey and if I can enjoy a faith journey with its climaxes and valleys, I have certainly enjoyed hearing you share it.
Daniel:Thanks. Well, I need to hear yours sometime. Have you interviewed yourself on the coverman road yet?
T.J.:Oh, that comes up more more often than you realize. Hey, when is the microphone gonna be turned around on the other side? You know, my response to that is maybe listen to all of the guests on Cumberland Road. I try to give of myself with each one. Cool.
T.J.:Little little here and there, but maybe. We'll see someday. There's more important people out there, and there's better faith charities out there that I wanna hear. I don't
Daniel:believe that. Oh, I thank you, and I thank you for what you give, and I thank you for this opportunity and the gift that it's been an encouragement it's been to me. I needed this. More than you realize, I needed this.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to The Cumberland Road. To hear more faith journeys, subscribe and follow on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and your favorite podcasting site. In closing, let me read from the author, poet, and minister, William Allen Knight. A trusted man because your heart is true. This is the tribute that belongs to you, Your face, your voice, the sign of manhood bear. Where your name is, confidence is there. Thank you for listening.
