Darren Kennemer - Caring For The Soul, Doorknob Problems, & Building Authentic Relationships
You're listening to The Cumberland Road, and I am your host, TJ Malinowski. Following is a faith conversation with Darren Kinnemer, a Cumberland Presbyterian minister and the chief of chaplain service in the VA health care system in Birmingham, Alabama. Darren shares how his faith journey led him into the mental health chaplaincy and how caring for the soul begins by building authentic relationships. Darren is most comfortable outdoors as he talks with me on his back porch with the birds conversing too in their own way. I hope you too enjoy this faith journey, whether outside or in your home, in your office, or in your car, with Reverend Darren Kinnemer.
T.J.:What does it mean to care for another human being? I think care looks different depending on the context. So care in a local congregation is gonna look different than care in a more institutionalized setting. So could you speak on the care of another human being?
Darren:Yeah. So I think it's, not just the context but the individual that's important. There are times that where I I'm working with an individual who is from a similar faith background, has similar experiences, and then you know there are times when I'm working with someone who's vastly different, and so there's not a lot of common ground. But I would argue that that, to a lesser extent, is true in the church as well. There's a variety of different experiences.
T.J.:I know I jumped in with a question, but I think it resonates with the role and the vocation that you have now. So do you mind, you know, describing your role, what that looks like? And maybe it will make more sense in terms of of my question, my opening question about caring for the soul, for the uniqueness of another human being.
Darren:Yeah. So, I mostly work with veterans who have, moral injury. And so just to unpack that a little bit, moral injury being folks who have, done something, experienced something, seen something, were not able to prevent something that violates their deepest sense of what's right and wrong.
T.J.:So it it's a form of trauma then.
Darren:It is. Very much. It's it's spiritual trauma. Mhmm. So we think about veterans having post traumatic stress disorder, often when they've been in combat, but it's this is broader than that in a lot of ways.
Darren:With with PTSD, you're you're dealing with a lot of fear based kind of responses to things and and the psychological sequilling of that. This could happen, without PTSD. So, you know, people who have had experiences that were not life threatening to them but that left an emotional, spiritual wound.
T.J.:Does trauma include sense of guilt, shame, loneliness, alienation?
Darren:Yes. All of the above. And and in fact shame is is from my perspective one of the kind of hallmark features of of moral injury. Guilt is, sometimes a part of that. But, yeah, the the the shame is really what what drives it, I think.
T.J.:What do your interactions look in terms of, healing and pointing towards healing, for combat veterans?
Darren:Yeah. So meeting where they are, and being willing to be present even when it's uncomfortable.
T.J.:Uncomfortable for both you and the individual.
Darren:Yeah. And and and hold holding space with them where they they feel free, to to open up and and share, in a in a way that's pretty vulnerable and being willing to to hold that with them and accept them as a human being, a child of God.
T.J.:Yeah. I would imagine that the natural human resistance is to withhold or, push back some of that that willingness to share, even though I'm gonna talk out of 2 sides of my mouth because in a way, that's what I'm asking you to do as a guest on this podcast. But isn't there a sense of, yeah, withholding or a withdrawal from, openly sharing, yourself with an acquaintance or a stranger or in this context, as a chaplain who is a professional. What does that look like from your end?
Darren:So building a relationship is is really key. Often people will will come in with some other problem that they wanna talk about. And and we call them doorknob problems because then at the end of the visit, you know, when they've got their hand on the doorknob oh, by the way. And sometimes that doesn't happen, you know, for a long time. You know, I've I've talked to people about other things for, you know, I think one time it took over a year of regular visits before to to to get a particular individual to open up.
T.J.:But in conversation that way, you need a dance, you know, where you, the chaplain, you, the professional, or the, let's say, the caregiver in this context, and then the individual. It's a give and take. People take turns leading and giving and how how long that dance may last. And and it is it's kind of like a conversational dance in terms of something beautiful can be the outcome, if both parties are willing.
Darren:Yeah. Absolutely.
T.J.:Although I'm being I'm being pretty flowery in a more clinical like setting that you work in. I don't I don't know if poetry fits too well in among terms and terminology and diagnosis.
Darren:Absolutely. And in fact, I think that that's one thing that the the chaplains bring to the the clinical setting is is, and and not that other disciplines don't as well, but but I think it's really important for chaplains to bring beauty into the clinical experience.
T.J.:Well, broadening our scope a little bit here in terms of the vocation that you have, Darren, What is the difference in terms of a chaplain and maybe a counselor or social worker or the equivalent within a veteran's office, or veteran's hospitalization or clinic, or, carrying facility? What makes your role distinctive than some of the other roles that that overlap?
Darren:So chaplains are focused on the individual, in a in a kind of a nuanced way. Rather than working with someone to achieve a specific goal, The chaplain's role is to be a companion, to walk with them through the experience. And sometimes, you know, I mean, obviously, broadly speaking, it is counseling. But it's counseling, with no agenda except that which the patient rings. And I guess you could argue that's an agenda in itself.
T.J.:Are there goals? Are there, expectations? Like, spoken or written. Is it a requirement for a veteran of a particular faith or any faith to visit with the chaplain?
Darren:No. It's completely voluntary, and usually initiated by the patient themselves. Like, you know, there are times when a psychotherapist, for instance, might, ask the patient, could I refer you to the chaplain? Would that be okay?
T.J.:How free are you able to speak of faith? And for our context, the Christian faith?
Darren:Well, if the patient is of the Christian faith, and that's important to them, then it would be central to the conversation. If or otherwise, if they have questions about something, you know, but yeah, back to the, I guess, approaching it without an agenda. You know? That's completely up to the patient. How how much, faith is is a part.
Darren:And and, you know, faith defined as you did. I mean, we can talk about having faith in various things, but religious religious faith.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Faith and belief in and the nuances of faith, nuances of what belief means, and how they're very different. Yeah.
Darren:Right. So broadly speaking, faith is is a part of everyone's spirituality. It's just a matter of what they have faith in. Is it humanity? Is it, faith in themselves?
T.J.:Mhmm.
Darren:Faith in their support system? Or, you know, a particular religious tradition.
T.J.:Well, Darren, let let's go back and kind of discuss and look at your journey and how you came into this caring profession of chaplaincy. Can you trace a thread to some earlier moment of your life where you can see a connection between where you are now and maybe when you were younger?
Darren:So yeah. The, I think ministry has always been kind of there for me. I didn't know what it was gonna look like, but I can I can remember, you know, as a very small child, I may have told you this story before but, I can I can remember, the the bathroom in in my parents house? One of the bathrooms had a big long countertop with a mirror note that was the kind of the floor wall. And my mom had, a candle sitting on it.
Darren:And I can remember when I was little turning my bathrobe around backwards and hanging the belt around my neck like a stole and pretending to celebrate communion, in on the on the, the communion table countertop I have there. Wonderful. And
T.J.:I I I don't remember that. I I didn't know that story. So you're remodeling what you what you saw pretty early on. How old do you think you were at that time?
Darren:16, 7. I I don't I don't know. Probably pretty young. I don't know. 6, 7, 8, something like that.
T.J.:You were creative enough to even think of your vestments.
Darren:Yeah. I you know, and and not that I understood, you know, sacramental theology or or liturgy or anything else, but but it felt important and something that I wanted to be a part of. And so like most of us I think, I went to seminary. I, you know, I went I went to to Bethel and psychology was always very interesting to me. So that's my undergrad.
Darren:It was in psychology. And and then in seminary, I thought I was going into parish ministry like most of us do and was serving churches, stated supply and, and and loved those churches. They're wonderful people, wonderful relationships. But during seminary, there was kind of a confluence of things, I think, that happened that that caused me to to hear my call differently. And one of them was the clinical practicum that that everyone had to had to do.
Darren:And having that experience of spending a semester working with, actually, Mark Brown at at UT Bold Hospital at that point. That had a had a remarkable impact on me. Mhmm. And Margaret McKee, who's also a CP chaplain in Memphis. And and finding while I loved, working with with folks in the parish, there was just something missing.
Darren:And and it turned out that what was what was missing, I found in chaplaincy. And, that was, I guess, a link back to the psychology part, the the counseling and and helping people with difficult experiences. And, you know, in the churches that we were serving back then, there weren't a lot of those experiences. Not that people didn't have trouble, but I didn't have a lot of counseling opportunities really.
T.J.:You were also a very young man with limited experiences. Life experiences.
Darren:Absolutely. Absolutely.
T.J.:I imagine that's how, you, I, and others, men and women, who felt a call to ministry early in life and acted on that, that, I I felt most of the time I was warmly embraced. But looking back, there were certainly major limitations that you that come with life experience and wisdom that comes with life experience that you can't read about or be taught in a classroom. You know, it's something that you have to trudge along on your own and figure out for yourself.
Darren:Absolutely. You know, the the process of, clinical pastoral education, the the training to to become a a chaplain, a healthcare chaplain. Prime's the pump for that a great deal. There there's lots of hands on learning and, you know, diving into the deep end of the pool.
T.J.:Well, I can only speak from the practicum point of view, but, kind of turns you, or at least my experience was, it turns you inside out. So, yeah. I go in and I can do self reflection inwardly. I do it often. But doing it in the public way was new to me.
T.J.:So what are you thinking and why are you thinking that way? And that's an interesting and I'm sure there are other fields, maybe, that open you up to those kinds of things. But it's one thing to question yourself and I don't mean in a doubtful way, but it's another thing to share it what it is that you that your process and what what you're thinking. And then have that questioned, which which, if you're open open to that, it can be very rewarding. But I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, that willingness.
T.J.:There has to be a willingness there to go deep, and and, you know, vulnerable. You you will become vulnerable. I talked over you, Darren. So,
Darren:you did?
T.J.:Maybe.
Darren:Well, it must not have been important if I was saying something, this is it's called.
T.J.:You you were kinda walking me through, your introduction to chaplaincy training in essence, and and, some of those early exposures tickled an itch that maybe you didn't experience so much in the local congregations that you had and and were serving at the time. Mhmm.
Darren:Yeah. So, I found lots of opportunity in healthcare, chaplaincy to to, to work with people with some very real problems. And it took a while for for me to kind of find the place where I am now as far as, kind of a focus area within chaplaincy. And I'm I'm fortunate to be in a setting that allows me to to focus on kind of where my where my passions are.
T.J.:Let's go back a little bit and sort of live in some other periods of your life. Let's go back when you were a teenager. And how did you begin living into an understanding that calling into ministry? You made a profession of faith at some point. And was that coupled with a call to ministry?
T.J.:Did that come later where you sort of publicly announced? What did that look like for you? I don't wanna put words into your to your mouth, but what did that look like?
Darren:So it was not until I was in college that that I really sort of accepted the the call.
T.J.:Oh, okay.
Darren:Yeah. So faith has always been, you know, like I described, it's always been a very important part of my life. The church is always, you know, very active in youth group, CPYC, Triennium. I think you and I were youth advisory delegates to general assembly at the same time. And,
T.J.:That's right. Yeah. You're right. I believe that's true. Yeah.
T.J.:We both had hair at that time.
Darren:Right. So, but I had kind of made a deal there just between me and God. I I had not shared anything about ministry with anybody else. Even though there were people in my life, in my home church, who were you know, pushing me in that direction, I resisted it.
T.J.:Okay. So I assumed, that if you were play acting in the single digits of your life, in front of a mirror that you just kind of embraced maybe a call to ministry. Didn't know what that looked like, but working in the church at some degree or fashion. But that's not necessarily true. So I kinda I just spoke over you again, Darren.
T.J.:You you made a deal with God.
Darren:Yeah. Well, see. Yeah. So the deal was that I was gonna go to law school first. And, and and that's that's what I was gonna do.
Darren:And it just wasn't things things didn't weren't going well, you know, as far as, feeling at peace with with that and and trying to focus on on that path. And so I I guess there were a lot of influences at work there that finally broke down the resistance.
T.J.:Yeah. And then you found yourself at Bethel. Was that some of your early encounters to the world of psychology, and did that inform a possible career path?
Darren:Yeah. Not just psychology, but theologically. I thought I knew a lot. And that has been a theme throughout my life now that I think about it. Every every class or experience of learning more, theologically, you know, kind of rocked my world and and and that came that came in the form of doctor John Carlock's Christian ethics class.
Darren:It's at that level.
T.J.:What happened?
Darren:He was just he's just an excellent professor, and and so many wonderful professors over the years that have helped shape me. But, he just challenged me. You know, no matter what I said, he challenged me to to think more deeply. That that was really pivotal, I think.
T.J.:So do you know what you're saying is you came away a little more humble from some of your coursework at Bethel.
Darren:Indeed. Indeed. And and, and, you know, on the psychology side, you know, Laddie Lawler also challenged me a great deal and, he and I didn't exactly jibe to start with, but, but crew and appreciation. I think he always appreciated me. I just didn't realize it.
Darren:And I learned to appreciate him and and he became became very, very important in in my, my path.
T.J.:Well, you may you named a couple professors. Who else has been influential, not just in your educational path, but just helping inform your faith and making that that journey that much richer?
Darren:Wow. That's a good question, and it's hard to know where to start with that. There's so so many professors and pastors and friends and family and colleagues over the years that have have have shaped me, and the experience of of being a husband and a father, Wow. Yeah.
T.J.:Yeah. How how how is being a husband informed your faith? We'll start with that one first.
Darren:Well, the the fact that I've been married to the same woman for almost 22 years is a miracle. She's she's still putting up with me. Yeah. And, and, you know, we have a wonderful life, together and wonderful children, both teenagers now. Hard to believe.
Darren:But but just, I guess, it's a constant reminder of God's grace at work, in in my life.
T.J.:How about being a parent? Let's start let's we'll go early. We'll go, those early moments of, oh my goodness. This is our first child. Now what?
T.J.:How how did that speak to your faith then? That I mean, because that's a pivotal and a transformational stage of life.
Darren:Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that's probably a pivotal moment for for any parent. Right? But our our son, our oldest, had some some problems as a newborn, and had to be, you know, on ventilator and all that for for a couple of weeks.
Darren:And there there was a point where they weren't sure he was gonna survive. And, that was really clarifying. And I was in residency at the time too, so which is grueling. And and when he was born, there were so many things that seemed important until that moment. And then immediately after that, you know, so when he was born it seemed like everything was fine.
Darren:It was it wasn't until hours later that they realized it was a problem. And, and and he's he's fine now. So it's, you know, but those were some long days And, there just wasn't an awful lot that mattered. I remember going back to, to the hospital to to work, after a while, after he was home and well and everything was was good. And, we were talking about the mid residency review, which is a really big deal for a resident.
Darren:You'd have to, you know, sit with a committee and go over your work and get grilled about what you've done and not done and what you should do. And and we were meeting about the process, and one of my fellow residents said, how can you be so relaxed? It's like you don't even care about this. And I I said, I I don't. My son's alive, and that's all that matters right now.
Darren:So that that experience, and I and I remember my supervisor telling me that, the challenge for me was to be able to move away from that experience and retain those lessons.
T.J.:Where are you now? That was 18 years ago.
Darren:Yeah. 19. Yeah. So I said the lesson is still there, but, you know, certainly I've definitely moved away from it, to the to, and and have to reach back and reclaim that lesson sometimes Because like anybody else, it's easy to get kind of fused with struggle.
T.J.:Darren, I from time to time, I like to ask guests about our relationship with god and experiencing God's presence. And that can be done and experienced in many ways. Darren, where where are you experiencing god's presence in your life now? You have 2 teenage kids. You're back in school.
T.J.:You have full time work. You've been married for over 20 years. You have a little bit of experience underneath your belt, hopefully some wisdom and insight to share with others. But in terms of your relationship with God, where is it? How do you know I mean, really, really know that it's you and God and your just your life?
T.J.:How would you articulate that?
Darren:Probably not nearly as well as you articulated the question. But I think the reality is, when I stop and look and take time I see God everywhere. But there's a constant competition for that attention. And so, you know, and I'm certainly not the best but at it, but the, developing intentional practices Something that I strive to do, to to slow down and and notice.
T.J.:I think that there is a correlation between gratitude and and, taken for granted. And there's, knowing that god is present in your life, however that is manifested and experienced in that moment and in that context. If it's something that is repetitive, I think the temptation is to to take it for granted. And therefore, why develop deeper, more rigorous practices when you're already taking something very powerful, loving, and compassionate, for granted already. Now, I'm throwing that out there.
T.J.:I'm not pointing that at you. I'm just kind of raising a question in general. Something I'll have to ponder on.
Darren:Well, I think that's the reason to do it.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Darren:Right? Because we realize that that we're taking the ultimate for granted.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Darren:The the the miracle of of spring, for instance. You know? If you if you take time to notice the flowers and and the birds, and I love being outside. But that's not always easy to do. So so I think that's that in and of itself is is important for spiritual health.
T.J.:Darren, you work with men and women who have experienced trauma and have experienced death on many levels, big death, little death, metaphorically and physically. When or if you've been asked a question of, like, where is god in all of this? From one of your patients, one of the veterans, how do you respond? Where is God in the world? I've seen this.
T.J.:I've been vulnerable. I've shared with you. You're my chaplain. How do I know God exists? Because I've seen and experienced and feel awful things.
T.J.:How do you respond
Darren:to that? Well, I think I would put that question to to the patient. I would reflect that back to them and and say, well, where do you see grace in your life? It's not all bad, no matter how bad it is. So you've been some through something horrific that you you got through it.
Darren:Mhmm. Why?
T.J.:Alright. Not being a chaplain, if you could take that that role off for a moment. What do you think? Where is God in this big, vast, beautiful, messy
Darren:world? Well, I think the my answer in some ways is the same everywhere. But, but I think most palpably, it happens in human connection.
T.J.:Speak more.
Darren:I think it's sometimes we can see God clearly in isolation and sometimes human interaction may make it more more difficult to see God at work. But, but when we when we approach relationships in an authentic way, with with humility and vulnerability, and focus less on ourselves and more on the person in front of us. I think that's holy ground.
T.J.:And biblical. In the sense of humility, I mean, that's that's humility in its best form. You have that awareness of who you are, your strengths, your weaknesses, your failures, your misscomings, your gifts, But there's less of a focus on yourself and more of a focus on other, the other, or others.
Darren:To focus on on the other in a positive way.
T.J.:Yeah. Okay. Good. Good. Yeah.
T.J.:That's right.
Darren:To to to celebrate the Imago Dei.
T.J.:That's hard though if if you're broken yourself. If you're hurting yourself though, if you're in trauma, there has to be little steps in between to get there.
Darren:Well, and maybe key to that is is one of acceptance. Accepting yourself for who you are warts and all, as we say. And and accepting that your story is your story. Right? There's nothing we can do to change the past, but maybe we can learn to hold it differently.
Darren:Maybe we can relate to it differently so that it's not so much defining who we are as if it is just a part of our story. Maybe even one from which we could draw strength and meaning.
T.J.:You're in a unique place. You have served local churches. You're a minister in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And yet, right now, your ministry is in a different capacity and reaches people that maybe the church does not reach church in the traditional sense or speak to or or can help. I think that gives you a unique perspective.
T.J.:And so I wanna ask you, having 1 foot in and 1 foot out of the institution that we call the church. We think that we're doing really, really well. And Darren, what do you think that the church may be missing?
Darren:I think in some ways, it's maybe two sides of the same coin, because I think that one of the real strengths of the church is tradition.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Darren:And and standing on the shoulders of so many who've gone before us in a great cloud of witnesses. And I think the church does that well. At the same time, the church is not really good at change. And so finding the balance between those so that we, we know who we are, we celebrate all that God has created us to be. We become the hands and feet of Christ in the world, understanding that we don't get to choose that world.
Darren:And, and the church has to be able to embrace people who are are radically different, people who make us uncomfortable. And I think that we don't always do that very well. We we much prefer to kind of, keep everything in a nice tidy little box. We get we can get threatened pretty easily when we're confronted with things that don't fit in the box.
T.J.:Yeah. An unwanted crease in your bulletin. I mean that metaphorically, but also, you know, like physically. Sometimes, you know, we're just not always at our best and for odd reasons.
Darren:You know, specifically the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, I I'm sure, like all of us, have at times been just exasperated, but I keep coming back to all those relationships that have shaped me and sustained me through which I've seen God's grace and experienced God's grace in my life. Mhmm. You know, we're incredibly diverse. And I think that one of our biggest challenges is, especially given the all the the cultural pressures that we face, is holding on to that, to the love that we have for one another and and and being willing to to experience tension sometimes to admit that we don't have all the answers.
T.J.:And that's coming straight from an individual who at times in your life you felt like you had all the answers. A response.
Darren:Oh, many times.
T.J.:I'll say, I'll cut you some slack. You had a response to the many questions out there that the world grapples with.
Darren:We yeah. And I think that the reality was that that I did have a response. But I think you from from my perspective, you were right the first time that I thought I had the answers. I'll often say that I I I went to seminary with all the answers and left with questions. Much better questions.
T.J.:If you go back and talk to a younger Darren, who's growing in his faith and preparing for ministry, what would you counsel him with? What would you say?
Darren:I think I would say lighten up. Don't take yourself quite so seriously.
T.J.:Yeah. You needed to hear that. Yeah. Yeah. And I need to hear that now, so there.
T.J.:Darren, are there books, music, art, movies that you've seen, that you've heard, that you've witnessed in your life or read in your life long ago or recently that speaks to your faith? Mhmm. And let let's go ahead and let's take out textbooks. Okay? I know you're you've gone back to school.
T.J.:So remove the textbooks.
Darren:And journal articles. Right?
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Darren:Just most of what I read these days. Wow. They've been they've been a lot. Rob Bell, a lot of a lot of his stuff, I think, has impacted me pretty deeply. And and, you know, books and and podcasts.
Darren:And, I mean, he has he has a lot of good stuff.
T.J.:You have the, the gift and the talent to sing. How about music? Is there a musical piece that speaks to your heart and speaks to your faith either by hearing it or singing it?
Darren:I have a love hate relationship with hymns usually. I love hymns, but but, you know, sometimes I have to be careful about paying too much attention to the theology, of of some of my favorites. You know, I have fairly broad tastes, and I I there's not a lot of music that I don't like. But as far as anything that's that's been transformative or anything like that. I don't know.
Darren:Alright. It's nothing's nothing's coming to mind.
T.J.:Alright. How about, how about a movie or a piece of art? And I think to help you out, art can include, in my mind, I think even building structures are pieces of art.
Darren:Mhmm.
T.J.:Cars. Even a car could be a piece of art. I'm I'm trying to help you here so you can at least
Darren:Yeah. Well, I I need all the help I could get. So it's interesting that that you said you mentioned architecture. I love old churches and and particularly, you know, the the old kind of gothic, architecture. I think but I, you know, I love little country churches too, but buildings, old buildings especially, really find a lot of beauty there.
Darren:And in in addition to the to the building, and I guess a tie back to to playing pastor as a child, the, the liturgy, I think, is is a work of art.
T.J.:Darren, I wonder if you were born in the wrong time, in the wrong era. Were maybe those gothic type church structures. And although maybe maybe some of the traditions and the hymns, those were contemporary at the time, but at least you'd have them together. I wonder if you were meant to be born in a earlier era for ministry.
Darren:Like the middle ages?
T.J.:Darren, thank you, for sharing your afternoon with me. Thank you for sharing your faith. And it's interesting to connect back with you after a long period of time and to hear how things are going and and that you're back in school. Did you wanna in closing, did you wanna speak to, becoming a student again and what led to that?
Darren:Oh, well, it's quite a trip after being, you know, out of out of school for 20 years, to to go back. And, you know, I've I've written things over those 20 years, but not for a grade. So so that's a different different experience. But I'm enjoying it. It's an opportunity, Vanderbilt has this program that's specifically for chaplains integrating principles of of evidence based psychotherapy with pastoral counseling.
Darren:And the motivation was was just to be able to do my job better, to to be able to to help. Because there occasionally, you know, in in my context, most most of my patients are also receiving mental health care. Often the way they come to me is is, you know, through consultation, like that but occasionally there are individuals who are resistant to getting help from from the mental health professionals and so being better equipped to to help those folks and and to to provide counseling that's that is sort of complimentary in some ways to, to what they're receiving if they are getting no health care.
T.J.:How far along are you and what degree are you seeking? Is is this a PhD?
Darren:It's a it's a it's a d man in, in integrative chaplaincy.
T.J.:Okay.
Darren:And I've just finished my first of 3 years. So I'm a third of the way there.
T.J.:Well, congratulations, and and I wish you well. And, I hope I hope that your experiences and your education can help inform the church and the church at large.
Darren:Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. I appreciate the opportunity to to hang out with you this afternoon.
T.J.:Yeah. Thank you, Darren.
T.J.:You've been listening to the Cumberland Road. I've been hosting this podcast closing in on 3 years and have had the privilege of listening and growing with so many great people who at the risk of being vulnerable have given of themselves by being a guest. Each one has enriched my life and deepened my love, my love for others, and my hope. My hope in life and the future is filled with excitement and anticipation. I close with these words of Sydney Girard, a professor of psychology at the University of Florida in 19 seventies and the author of several books, including The Transparent Self. He writes, to be really heard is a rarity in everyday life.
