Debbie Hayes - Growing Up In Church
Welcome to the Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. The following is the faith journey of Debbie Hayes. Debbie is the current president of the ministry council, the ministry programming division of the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination. Debbie lives in Kentucky and is employed in her school district as an administrative assistant. Service and volunteering are important to Debbie. She's an active member of the Unity Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Murray, Kentucky. She has a long list, and this is not exhaustive, of how important volunteering and service is to her. Currently, she serves on the board of missions for her presbytery. In the past, she has been a Boy Scout leader, Girl Scout leader, school volunteer. She has served as secretary and president of her regional women's ministry. She has served as secretary of the denomination's women's ministry convention. She has volunteered at countless vacation bible schools, Christmas plays, musicals, and community choirs. Debbie feels that service and volunteering are part of her calling. Enjoy my faith conversation with Debbie Hayes.
T. J.:Debbie, I thought we would open our conversation about the ministry council of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. You are the current president. But before I jump into all that stuff, could you walk me through and the listener through what is the ministry council? What does it do? What's its function? And then we'll glide right into your role as the president of the Ministry Council. Assume I know nothing.
Debbie:Thank you. Would say the ministry council of course, the word ministry kinda gives a little bit of insight as what we do as accountable. We are one entity of Cameroon Presbyterian denomination that oversees the ministry and the work. We have different like missions. We have a mission history team.
Debbie:We have a communications team. We have a store development team, and we also have what's called the we have PBMT. So we have missionaries and discipleship. And disciple. Correct.
Debbie:And so DMT, all these acronyms that we have in our deliberation, sometimes it's hard to keep straight.
T. J.:It's crazy. Yeah, a couple of Presbyterians, we speak in code and acronyms. And, you know, God forbid the people who haven't picked up on them because it will just sound like will sound like consonants with no vowels, which is exactly what it is. And people won't know. But anyway, pastor development, communications, discipleship, and missions ministry teams.
T. J.:And then I began to speak over you. Yeah, we got a lot of acronyms. So go ahead.
Debbie:That's correct. We have the Missions Ministry team, of course, works with our missionaries, whether they are in United States or outside of The United States. We have a big global presence. We also have our communications ministry team. We have a wonderful Cumberland Posthering Magazine that falls under that team.
Debbie:Other publications that we publish for CPE writers. We have a pastoral team who truly have a heart for our ministry and those work in the denomination. And then we have the disciples ministry team, which deals a lot with different programs and resources that we use, and they are all just wonderful.
T. J.:Which one's your favorite?
Debbie:Oh, I'm just messing with you.
T. J.:That was a loaded question. I just wanted
Debbie:That's to get like asking a mom which child is her favorite. That's not fair.
T. J.:And for those who are listening, I am actually on the missions ministry team. So that's why it was a loaded question. I really put Debbie on the spot.
Debbie:Well, I would say, as I've served on the ministry council, we, over the years of those services, we get to serve as a liaison on these teams. And so I've been able to be a liaison on three of the four so far.
T. J.:All right. We have these teams. These teams are staffed with full time, part time employees. But then there's another layer to this ministry council, which is you're a part of. And if you could kind of expand upon that.
T. J.:So there's the staff, paid staff, but then there's a council council. And if you could kind of unwrap that for in just kind of more detail and explanation of what that is and what its purpose and function is.
Debbie:The council is a body of elected members. And they serve three year terms and we can serve those up to three consecutive terms. We represent a broad area of the denomination. We come from different presbyters. And we have currently a member who is from Japan and one from Colombia.
Debbie:And our moderator of the denomination of our general assembly always suffers. And this year, of course, our moderator, Reverend John Montano, is Colombian and serving on on the ministry council.
T. J.:So what is the role of the elected members of the ministry council?
Debbie:Well, we get to meet with the ministry teams when we meet August in person in Memphis and see what they are doing, the work that they're wanting to proceed with. There's just different, lots of different aspects of the consul.
T. J.:So as president, what what is the role of the president? How long is that term? And how long have you been in that role as the president of the ministry council?
Debbie:You're elected for a one year term, and then you can be reelected for another term. And I am beginning this.
T. J.:Okay. Your second term as president?
Debbie:Yes.
T. J.:Alright. Okay. Any epiphanies? Any revelations as serving as an officer of the minister council before in you know, like, any preconceived notions that you may have had before, you know, have yeah, anything come from serving as the president?
Debbie:I think so, because I really didn't understand the true makeup of the nomination and I think a lot of people with the nomination don't really know or understand. You have general assembly, but you have administrative tasks which is a totally different entity and we're a five zero one c three organization. So we're concentrating on the ministry.
T. J.:Yeah. And I think it's amazing because you were elected as president by the ministry council. And and you're just a member of the church like the rest of us, just just part of the church. You haven't, you know, like, scaled the Empire State Building on your bare hands, or I don't think you have, you haven't, won the Nobel Peace Prize. You've just a regular person like everyone else in the denomination.
T. J.:And so and it may not be a position of high desire. I I don't know. I guess only you and the former presidents of the ministry council could could speak to that. I do That's true. Find
Debbie:could depend on what was going on at the time.
T. J.:That's true. But I find that amazing is, you know, a lot of times we think in terms of accomplishments or popularity, but that's not how our system is set up.
Debbie:No. There are people on the ministry council with totally different educational backgrounds, totally different trying to decide how to get we're made up of lay leaders, ministers. You don't have a theological degree. You can be just simple little Debbie from Kentucky.
T. J.:Right. I think there's a willingness to serve, you know, a passion for people, a passion for the good news of Jesus Christ. Being Cumberland Presbyterian and, and the church at large will find a place for you to share your gifts.
Debbie:That's That's great.
T. J.:I think that's pretty neat. Thank you for the introduction, the brief overview of the ministry council and kind of its scope and its purpose and some of the people and the roles and what they entail or their their focuses. Let's talk about you and your faith and your relationship with God today. So, Debbie, if we can bounce all over the place in this conversation if you want to. Well, let's start early in your life.
T. J.:You know, as far back as as you can recollect, where did you experience, acknowledge, recognize that there was a place for God in your life and your openness to the faith and what did that mean to you at the time? And where were you? And we'll just start there and carry on.
Debbie:Okay. I grew up in church. My parents made sure that I went to church every week. I grew up in the Southern Baptist denomination, and my grandparents were highly involved in church. They were just wonderful Christian influences.
Debbie:And I felt a tug early on in my heart, and I thought I'd come to a profession. I thought I was but I was involved in church. And then when I turned 17, had gone with the youth to an event, and God spoke to me right then and I realized I had not accepted him as my Lord and Savior and that was something I definitely wanted. And right then and there, we were saved and followed with baptism and was very involved in church. We had a children's church and worked in that.
Debbie:I was in choir. Then growing up to college, met my husband. And when we got married, we both wanted, you know, to go to church as a family. And me having brought it up Baptist, and his family background was Cumberland Presbyterian except for when his parents got married and moved to Paris, Tennessee, they went to the Methodist church there. So anyway, when we got married and we moved to Memphis and we decided, that Cameroon Presbyterian church was where we belong, where we could come together and we could serve together.
Debbie:And his wonderful grandfather, Reverend Ralph Mount Log and his wife, Rachel, now mom and people, were just wonderful. They were so loving and encouraging and then when Brian called to the ministry, his paparoma right there with us encouraging us and supporting us. And so that really started, you know, my involvement at a higher level.
T. J.:Oh, yeah. I would imagine so. Absolutely. Before we before we jump into that, I wanted to ask you a question, something that you said earlier. When you were 17, you said that God spoke to you Mhmm.
T. J.:And on a youth trip. Let's live there for a little bit. So God spoke to you. What did that sound like? What did God say?
T. J.:What is the the signs or the voice like for you? And yeah, let's start there. I'm always intrigued that God speaks to people in different ways. And I'm curious to know how God spoke to you.
Debbie:Well, it was, like, audible right there in my face. I mean, I just felt him speaking through my heart that Debbie, you know, I want you to surrender your life, and I want to be a huge part of your life. I want I want to just love
T. J.:That's interesting. So it really, it really was an invitation, you know, in in what you experienced. Was that maybe a movement from just church attendance and being around other Christians and being in that environment to an actual real relationship?
Debbie:Well, people who have grown up in church from day one, their experience with salvation may be different than those who have not experienced growing up in church.
T. J.:Right. I've had those conversations before. You tell me what you think. Where it, you know, it's because you're in that environment weekly, regularly, as a child growing up, there may not be like this pivotal moment that you can acknowledge, not necessarily to the extreme of date, time, and location, but just it's sort of that, like, through osmosis. And it's it's in that self reflection of like, oh, God has always loved me.
T. J.:And now I want to respond in turn what Cumberland Presbyterians call a profession of faith. Yours sounds a little different. You know, there there was this experience to where, as you said, you know, taking it to the next level of, you know, like a a formal public commitment. And then you did it again when your husband received a call into ministry. So you just keep ratcheting up, Debbie.
T. J.:But I did all that.
Debbie:I believe that when God calls someone into the ministry, if they are man, as a spouse, I should support that common.
T. J.:Yeah. Yeah. The spouse may not be in the pulpit or leading the youth or whatever the ministry may be. They may not be doing home visits, or hospital visits, chaplain visits, whatever the role of ministry may be. But it does impact you and your relationship with your spouse and with God as well.
T. J.:I mean, you're absorbing some of that call just in in terms of representing the good news. And there's sacrifices, which you can certainly attest to and share here if you want. That comes with calling to the ministry of the word and the sacraments.
Debbie:Definitely. I mean, it's not a nondefiled, And and it's contrary to not a lot of people might think or say you don't work thirty minutes on Sunday morning. And it's a 20 fourseven job. It's not I'm here. I say job, but it is a job.
T. J.:It it it is you are on call, and it is a calling. And it's a, I guess that's the word I've been using the past few years. It's a vocation. You know, because I guess with a job, you know, job as in you can show up and not be plugged in, you know, like, I mean, go through the motions and that sort of thing in a job. Ministry, I don't believe allows you to do that because part of it is well, I mean, all of it is relational.
T. J.:And, like, if you and I were having a conversation and you would sniff me out if I wasn't paying attention. You know? My body language would give me away. My eyes would give me away. Know?
T. J.:You know, easily destroy. I mean, there'd be so many signals that I would put off knowingly or unknowingly that so it'd have to be more than that. And but you're right. Anyway, let's get back to you. So a calling, a vocation in ministry incorporates more than just one individual.
T. J.:It sort of absorbs the whole family, spouse and children, if there are children, for sure.
Debbie:Definitely. We we try to involve our children as much as possible. Brian or take the kids when they're little to visit those who shut in. Christmas and beer, we make homemade cookies and candy. We go visit, take the kids, and it's a blessing, I think, for those receiving the gift.
Debbie:But to see the kids, their reaction with those people, and experience that love. It was great. I mean, there's then there's the second times, you know, where your spouse gets that call during the night, you know, to go to the hospital or the home because of an accident or death, serious illness. So you experienced the ups and downs with your spouse.
T. J.:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So what about you? So you you went on, got some training and you had and have a career as well. So kind of walk me through that post Debbie at age of 17.
Debbie:Okay.
T. J.:Post 17, same Debbie. Yeah. That sounds a little bit better.
Debbie:I went to college. I did not finish my bachelor's. I do have an associate's in business administration. I have a certificate in paralytic studies. And I started out as a paralegal and worked in different areas of law.
Debbie:And
T. J.:So you are an excellent researcher Attractive. And finder of things, cases, documents, people. Run me through just kind of quickly what a paralegal typical week could look like.
Debbie:Well, depending on which area of law. I started working for a law firm that handled personal injury, workers' compensation, and social security. Then I went to work for an attorney who handled mainly real estate law. Kind of boring, you know, it it was okay. And I had a wonderful attorney I worked.
Debbie:And then Brian got married, moved to Memphis, and worked for the general counsel of a brokerage firm there at the time. And that's where I ended up getting my certification. And then we went back to the Paducah area and went to work for the prosecutor in Paducah. And I love because we would, you know, I'd have to talk to victims, witnesses, victims' family, the officers, court advocates that involve children. Paralegal job was interesting there.
Debbie:I would go to the trials, help select juries, which was interesting. And I was over grand jury. So but then, you know, life wasn't happening. Children are coming online.
T. J.:They do.
Debbie:And then Brian entered the ministry. And so I ended up, what I thought was gonna be a temporary position while I was trying to get on with school district was secretary for the Margaret Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
T. J.:Okay.
Debbie:And I was there seven years.
T. J.:Wow. So in the paralegal, you really had to develop and sharpen the skills, your people skills, being able to communicate with people, get information from them, maybe even sometimes information they weren't ready to reveal or provide. Look at me. I'm measuring my words. You were doing that earlier.
T. J.:And yeah, you got to be really, really good at that or you won't be a paralegal for very long. But I always imagined a paralegal, like almost sort of like an archeologist down in, you know, the basement of a courthouse and or somewhere searching for files, you know, that hadn't been discovered in years or may not even exist and and finding figures and facts that no one thought existed. And in my mind, I just painted it, or I do paint it as an interesting vocation.
Debbie:It definitely was. And it was really working, especially for those families who were needing closure. I did have an experience one day in court where we had the trial, a murderer. These two men had murdered a young man, and the mother of the victim, you know, was able to get up and speak during the second many days. And she was the strongest, precious Christian woman I think I've ever seen.
Debbie:She stood right there, told those two young that she forgave him. God loved him. And she would be praying for them while they were.
T. J.:Those would be hard words to say. Mhmm. And mean them. Yeah.
Debbie:And she did. Mhmm.
T. J.:Debbie, you shifted gears, as you said, you know, your husband responding to a call in ministry, your children growing. And so you went from the paralegal, the legal world, the world of the courts, to the the world of the church. And you served as office administrator at the Margaret Hainte Cumberland Presbyterian Church there in Paducah. And I cut you off. You said that you were there for about seven years.
T. J.:So let's let's talk about how you're shifting into service into the church and what that looked like for you. A different kind of service and ministry in the church.
Debbie:It was different. But at same time, you know, I do in the denomination, in the area, through either churches, through Cumberland Presbyterian Women's Ministry, or children's activities. And that was very helpful to serve the Margaret Church. They were wonderful people. They loved me.
Debbie:They loved my family. Brian filled in as interim pastor a few times while they were in between, and he was serving at the Oakland Cumberland Presbyterian Church just outside of Bodega.
T. J.:Okay.
Debbie:And they were just they were just like crazy. And got really close of course.
T. J.:Let's talk about your faith here. So you know, you were in secular work, but it still puts you around people every day. But now you are around, or at least on a regular basis, dealing with church folk who are the best people on the planet and sometimes not always the best people on the planet. So your faith. Did your faith deepen during your time in serving in a church in a very, very different level?
T. J.:I mean, you were a staff member of a church. So it was more than just coming to worship or to sing in the choir or to be part of women's group or the various different activities. You're actually an employee of a local church.
Debbie:I think it did. Like you said, it is different, but at the same time, it's the same.
T. J.:Same people. Same people.
Debbie:People are people. You're gonna catch on good days and bad days. You know, they were not gonna agree with, you know, exactly how you're not awarded something in a newsletter, or you have a typo in a bulletin.
T. J.:That's okay. Yeah. I didn't even think about that. So what maybe Monday or Tuesday and we're recording this on a Monday night. So this may very well been the day when you got a phone call, there's a little note on your desk, when you come in on Monday of the mistakes found in the bulletin that you had either typed or printed off or folded or maybe even all of the above, you know, where there are always those people that will be able to to go the date was left over from last week or one digit was wrong and the naming of the hymn or here, I'll let you pick up.
T. J.:Can probably come up with some real doozies.
Debbie:No, would a case when you had the bulletin on your desk and the red circle.
T. J.:Like you're being graded. Was
Debbie:this person a retired teacher? Yeah,
T. J.:sounds like you were being graded. Yeah, for sure. What else did you draw from that experience and that service in the church?
Debbie:I learned about relationships more. Not just with the people in the church, but also the denomination by work. They're plus being involved on the Presbyterian level and with the Carmel and Presbyterian women's industry on a regional level.
T. J.:Yeah. That's that's right. Because, you know, I guess the average the average person, you know, when we think of church and describe church, we think of the just the kind of the local context, the congregation and the church family that we're a part of. Right? Then and, you know, there, that church, that particular church on that particular street.
T. J.:But with a spouse experiencing a call to ministry and then you actually serving in a local church, you get exposed that, hey, there are I mean, you always know that there are other churches, but there really are other churches, and here's how you're connected to them. And you get kind of exposed to, specifically for us that Presbyterian, that representative form of church government.
Debbie:Well, and during my time, I also served as the reporting clerk for our Presbytery. Part of that time was Regional Women's Ministry President.
T. J.:Oh, okay. Well, I need to catch up with you. So you were just, you were just blossoming and serving in every different place that you could. So help me. How did that fit in the timeline of when you were working at the Margaret Hank Church?
T. J.:Were you were you already involved in these other roles? Or did they come during that seven year time span?
Debbie:It was during that seven year time span. Well, I became the recording clerk probably just a few minutes after it started working, Margaret Hain.
T. J.:Okay. As we do as Cumberlands and as the church, we find somebody with a skill set and the inability to say no, and you just get plugged in all different places.
Debbie:You know, they always say, when you retire, you always wonder how do you get everything done? And at this time, I look you haven't retired yet, but I look back and I'm thinking, man, I'm tired when I get home. How did I do what I did back then? Of course I was younger.
T. J.:Yeah, but still, okay, let's be realistic. So you have a spouse who's returning to school and then ultimately graduates, but returning to You have how many children do you have? Two? Three? I have two.
T. J.:Two. So you have, at this time, two school age children. You're working full time at a local church. You're active in an in your own church. Right.
T. J.:And and then active in women's ministry and then a recording clerk. That would eat up all those responsibilities would eat up many hours of each day.
Debbie:Then adding in a Cub Scout mom who volunteers as a leader, a girls game leader. It's just, it was a lot.
T. J.:I'm gonna throw your question back at you. How did you do all of that?
Debbie:I think it's because I knew what I had to do when it was. And I just And
T. J.:if it was really work, you probably would have been tired. I mean, work or job as we were talking about earlier, you know, probably would feel like. I guess it didn't then.
Debbie:Well, working at the Margaret Hanks Church, they were always gracious to allow me to work church camp or, you know, tend to feed home, things like that.
T. J.:When we were talking earlier, before this recording, you told me that you now work in the school system. So now we're kind of moving up to present day or closer to present day. So how did you what do you do in the school system and how did you kind of get into that role in that position?
Debbie:Okay, currently, I'm an administrative assistant at the Marshall Kennedy Board of Education in Bentonville. Is I'm beginning my eighteenth school year. I always wanted to be on my kid's schedule when they both got into school. And, the position had opened eventually. And as an instructional assistant for special needs in the preschool.
Debbie:And so I went for a review, and they asked me, what are you going to tell the child who's having a first day in school, having a tough day in nursing, and what would you say? And I said, I'll say, this is my first day too. I'm in trouble. Let's just do this together. And I got the job.
T. J.:So that first job, you said it was instructional assistant? Is that correct? Okay. So kind of, kind of walk me, you know, what is that? What does that Okay.
Debbie:An instructional assistant is basically an assistant teacher. But I work with special needs students. So I would and it was in preschool setting. And one of the children I worked with had several disabilities and was pretty much immobile. Got to help teach her how to use the wheelchair for the first one.
Debbie:Using a little toggle switch. Ran over it once. That's okay. Worked with a child with blindness and a child who had cerebral palsy, But we would work with them on accommodations, and you find out these children, they don't have disabilities. They do have a disability.
Debbie:We just have to figure out how to make everything for them.
T. J.:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And develop those communication skills. Communication, as we were talking about earlier, there's many ways to communicate, daily life skills. Then the sensitivity of there are many communities within the community of disability.
T. J.:So it's a diverse mix of beautiful people and who have beautiful gifts and different needs and being able to connect in the ways that people need to be connecting. Wonderful community to work in for sure. Very rewarding and challenging.
Debbie:It was challenging at times, but we all get frustrated or have issues. A lot of the times kids will school and people want to sometimes they behave the way they do. But you know if they had to sleep in this night. You don't know if the last time they had food in their belly was at lunch at school or if there was a problem in that home during the night they didn't go to sleep. So
T. J.:Thinking back on that period of your career, how did your faith and how does your faith speak to, the role that you were you were in at the time, how you interacted with the preschoolers and the other staff and the preschoolers parents and caregivers.
Debbie:You just love them. And you encourage them. And you show you really care about these children. With the preschoolers, we would go a home visit a few times And so you get to see firsthand, you know, what their home is like. It's an eye out there.
Debbie:But the parents get to know you. You get to know the parents, and, you know, you get to earn trust. And they or they did, you know, you show that you want their child.
T. J.:Yeah. Yeah. Your role in the school system is different today.
Debbie:So,
T. J.:let's talk about what you do now.
Debbie:Well, I'm going to go back up. There was an opportunity that opened up at our board office to be the administrative assistant for the special education director. And I thought, oh, I could help on a higher level and use my office administration and para skills and interviewed that position. And I've been at the board office now since 2010. My roles have changed over the years.
Debbie:I still assist the special education director, but also the other director.
T. J.:What's rewarding about this role?
Debbie:Well, like I said, you get to help on a higher level. Because you as the director, and the director has things that he needs to concentrate on or go to meetings with issues or whatever. And I can take care of the stuff that's in the office on a daily basis.
T. J.:And you serve more than one school in that that particular role.
Debbie:We have ten nine nine schools class of technology school in our district. We have six elementary, two middle schools, and one high school.
T. J.:Does each school have facilities and staff for people or for students with intellectual disabilities?
Debbie:Yes. We have amazing SPEDS. Our high school has a program called RISE, R I S D, and it is just amazing to see these young people learn life skills and just have fun and learn and be loved. They cook. They learn how to wash and dry clothes.
Debbie:That it's amazing.
T. J.:And you get to be a part of that. And Yes. In an indirect, somewhat direct way. A different much different than when you were working in one classroom.
Debbie:Well, I also work with we have occupational therapists. We have a physical therapist. We have speech language pathologist. We have an autism consultant, a behavior consultant, nursing staff, and school psychologists that I work with.
T. J.:Okay. A lot of people. And a lot of those, each, I guess each county and maybe state is different. So some of those people would be outside consultants, but can come and serve in the students in the school system. And then some of the lists that you of staff that you've mentioned would actually be county or staff employees.
T. J.:Correct?
Debbie:We are now at the point we actually employ those people. They're not contracted.
T. J.:Oh, okay. Okay. So they don't work for an outside consultant agency or or a hospital or physical therapy? Okay.
Debbie:No. They have different powers.
T. J.:All right. Well, I feel half smart. I was in the ballpark of Well, that's good. So that you can provide, I guess, a level of consistency, maybe even longevity when it comes to those staff. They have a tendency to stick around.
T. J.:Alright. Debbie, we we've talked about your secular work, your work in the church. Let's swing back around to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and and you have kind of a a very unique insider's view of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church as a denomination. You you were introduced to it in young adulthood, And then kind of later, a little bit later in life, you end up being part of a shared ministry. And then you have served the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in many, many different levels.
T. J.:So with that precursor, I'd love to be able to hear your insight. What are your observations, strengths, weaknesses, that you see, you've experienced for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church or within the Cumberland Presbyterian Church? Pretend that you're speaking to somebody that's never even heard of this denomination. What would you want them to know? Good, bad, ugly?
Debbie:We are one big family. You have the good, bad, ugly with any family or any organization. We're not anymore. But one thing that I've always liked about Cameron Church is this sense of unity that we've had. There's there's a lot that goes on in the world, but we, I think, pretty much just believe that we have a mission to God, that we need to go out, and we need to do his and that, you know, they said it's connectional.
Debbie:They always said that. And I always felt unique because when I was little, being at a Baptist church, you know, we didn't do things really with other Baptist churches in the area. But Carlin Presbyterian churches, we're always doing things together and I love that. You know, there's some kind of little activity, a special service or you're gonna have Bethel come for everybody gets invited, you know, from that area. You just feel that connection, that family.
Debbie:Mhmm. And that it's not just here in The United States. We are in 20 countries. And that's just amazing to me.
T. J.:It is. It's baffling. Know, numerically, we may not be a extremely large denomination. But we certainly have family to use your use your word. We have family just scattered all over the world and doing ministry.
T. J.:Speaking of family, it didn't have to be connected just to actual family members, but who are some of the people that have, throughout the course of your life, really impacted your faith, really helped you grow in your relationship with God?
Debbie:Well, of course, first family. My mom and dad were always involved in church and their parents. I remember to my dad's house, you know, to spend the night and I can hear my grandmother in the room every night When I was lying in the bed, she was in there reading her bible. She would read it out loud, and then she would pray. My grandfather was a deacon in the church and just they had this wonderful love.
Debbie:And it was because their marriage was on God. And, you know, they would get into a little argument, of and my grandfather would go out to his little woodshop, work a little bit. My grandmother would be best in the kitchen. And then my grandfather would come in the back door, and he gets the white finger chuff out of his pocket, And he waved in the air, like, I surrendered. And my grandpa did laugh.
Debbie:And then they were fine.
T. J.:That's funny.
Debbie:But they just wonderful.
T. J.:He waved the Yeah.
Debbie:I don't know. But my dad, while I was working for Margaret, I went through pancreatic cancer. And he was they found him, he's in the hospital, he's had his major surgery And he was supposed to have been driving his truck that week to pull a work trailer for his truck to go to New Orleans and work with the people who had been victims of Hurricane Katrina. And he called some of the people in the church, and they came to visit him in the hospital. And he gave his track keys.
Debbie:He said, I might not go, but my track didn't go. And so anyway,
T. J.:I like that. They
Debbie:brought back a picture. They printed of his truck and trailer in front of church that they were held to build.
T. J.:That's awesome. The truck was an extension of him. That's awesome.
Debbie:In a
T. J.:good way. In a good way.
Debbie:But and then Brian grandparents, of course. Mhmm. His grandfather, she was just wonderful, wonderful wonderful pastor's wife, and she told me she said, now, Debbie, if you don't remember anything, remember this. At church public, don't volunteer to put the bread back into the loaf bag because it won't go back in the way it came out. He had a sense of humor.
T. J.:That's funny. Debbie, what did I leave out? What question did I not ask that you thought that I might? What area of your life and your faith did I miss that you want to share? Such a dangerous question.
T. J.:You could
Debbie:really dangerous.
T. J.:You could really take this in any direction.
Debbie:Well, sometimes I think people, if they know, like, the Christian pastor, They might act differently or treat you differently. I remember working in the school, and I mean I just would say I'm a pastor's wife you know I didn't announce it but one day one of the employees in the school had found out she came to me and she said I need to apologize to you. And I said, for what? She said, I don't know. But I found out at the pastor's mom, and I'm sure I've said something that was inappropriate.
Debbie:I said, you're fine. I still can't serve. Know, we've we've been through our school has been through some bad We went through a school shooting. This was in 2018 and never forget that thing. Then twenty one December We had the tornadoes that came up through Tennessee and Western Kentucky and it devastated several communities here in our community.
Debbie:We lost 2,002. And I'm grateful that I'll let the community that is very faith based, where we can come together and be strong for each other and lean on our faith. I don't know. We've been through, personally, a lot of adversity. Brandon, our son, he went through a disease in his hips when he was was treated by Shriners, and he's fine.
Debbie:He teaches technical education in Clarksville, Tennessee. And Brian went through some serious back surgeries, open heart surgery, and some surgery. And, you know, just everything we've been through, I can't be patient going through any of it without God. And it just hurts my heart to know that there are people out there who don't have him, don't have that, and they're going through struggles. And I just can't imagine going through anything without God.
Debbie:You know, even when people are going through bereavement, if I don't have that church thing in the world, I just hurt. How
T. J.:did you and how are you, Debbie? Going through these experiences within your community and within your family and not come out on the other side not angry or bitter or disillusioned because you would have every right to to feel that way, to be that way, to behave that way, but you're not. How come? What do you have that others do not? Well,
Debbie:it doesn't mean I haven't struggled, you know, when we have it. When Brian had his back surgeries and heart surgery, that was during COVID time, like right before and during. And so that was that was tough. Because the world is different. You know, you didn't have all that personal inner relationship.
Debbie:But
T. J.:And things were changing day to day. They were. Least week to week. Mhmm. Everybody was trying to figure out what to do.
T. J.:And then you had that double layer of your own personal life and family was changing day to day.
Debbie:Well, and we had my mother and at the time, Brian's trying to help during COVID. Brian's is ill, and so we would take, you know, weekends to go stay with to help keep him safe. You know? Brian's peers and the families helped. And but it I just can't imagine without God going through anything that we've been But you just stay strong.
Debbie:You read the bible. You pray a lot. You know? And I try to play Christian music. You know?
Debbie:It's always on more and at home too. I just I don't know. I can't imagine going through without feeling that love, peace, and that comfort that only he can
T. J.:give. Yeah. And I think having those things also comes with the overwhelming joy and need to be able to share it with others, whether they receive it or understand it or not, it's still there for us to be zealous about. This is who I could be, or this is who I was. But this is who I am and why.
T. J.:I mean, that's an invitation. It is. Invitations can be turned away. But it can't be unless we just invite people. There is no invite.
Debbie:That's true. And I've been writing. Hopefully, someday I'll get it published about these adversities that I've been through so that you can help others.
T. J.:That's awesome. Just that short period, not short, I'm sure it felt like eternity, but the last, what, eight years, seven, eight, I guess we're getting kind of close to ten years of your life. Is that what you're focusing on? Or are you have you expanded beyond just the last ten years, this book that you're writing or have written? If I'm pushing too much, just say, you know, it's a work in progress.
Debbie:I'm trying to think. No, it goes back further, really throughout our ministry.
T. J.:Do you have a title for it yet?
Debbie:Playing around with it.
T. J.:Okay.
Debbie:Live. Let's see. I wrote it down just in case you said
T. J.:Subject to change, but at the
Debbie:moment Yes, subject to change.
T. J.:Right. Okay.
Debbie:But life's inconvenience is blessing in disguise.
T. J.:Okay. Alright. It's kind of catchy.
Debbie:Working on.
T. J.:I like it. Debbie, thank you for giving me a couple hours of your time. I hope it didn't feel like a couple hours.
Debbie:No. Mean At all.
T. J.:Since I I don't know how
Debbie:Just like sitting in the living room talking.
T. J.:That's awesome. Except we're one dimensional as we But record this on thank you for sharing. This has given me the opportunity to, well, get to know you. We had a short phone conversation in preparation for this. Just kind of you were feeling me out to see if this is something that you wanted to do, and I'm very grateful that you did.
T. J.:But it's given me a great opportunity to just sit down with you, be able to get to know you better, have a laugh with you, but just hear of the the wonderful grace that God is has bestowed upon you. It's changed your life, and you invited me in, and I appreciate it.
Debbie:Well, thank you.
T. J.:Thanks for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road. After having this faith conversation with Debbie, I found a poem that I feel is appropriate for her emphasis on growing up in church and the importance of church in one's life. The poet is Catherine Pulsifer, and this poem is called A Grounding Place. In the stillness of the pews, hearts find solace, a refuge from life's tumultuous flow. Church stands as an anchor, a blessed grace, where souls seek respite and God's presence known. For within these walls, whispers of peace thrive, melodies of faith whispering through the souls, A sanctuary where weary spirits revive. Church binds us close to our purposeful goals. From Sunday's embrace to each week, anew church, a grounding place guiding us through. Thanks for listening.
