Debbie Shanks - To Be Whole, Content, & Trust In God
This is The Cumberland Road, and I am TJ Malinowski. The following is a faith conversation with Debbie Shanks, an elder, Sunday school teacher, treasurer, and musician at the New Hope Cumberland Presbyterian Church in KZ, Illinois. Debbie is active in the life of North Central Presbyterian, Synod of the Midwest, and serves on the denominational board of Stewardship Foundation and Benefits. On top of this, Debbie is a township supervisor, similar to a mayor, covering 48 square miles including both people and farm country. This is a raw, open, and emotional conversation. Debbie's faith journey includes abuse, pain, and trauma, and also healing and love. She attributes her healing and breaking the cycle of abuse all to God, And she is turning that pain into something beautiful and that's helpful to others. And as she says, to shorten the path of suffering and find healing, to help others. To be whole, content, and to trust in God. Enjoy this faith journey of Debbie Shanks.
T.J.:You are a township supervisor. What is a township supervisor?
Debbie:Township supervisor is kind of the mayor of their township. Our township is about 48 square miles. I handle all the finances. I lead all the meetings. I'm the chief contact person from outside, and I manage 8 cemeteries.
Debbie:And so that when I ran for township supervisor because of the cemeteries because I've always been a genealogy nut, and they weren't maintaining the cemeteries. And so I ran for the job, and I got it. And then first thing I said was, where are the cemetery maps? Because I was interested. Roy Mose Cemetery.
Debbie:Our kids have mowed cemeteries since they were itty bitty, and not our township ones. We moved since then, but, we don't have any maps. And so I've been mapping cemeteries, which is quite a hoot. I I tell people I spend a lot of time with dead people. Part of mapping the cemeteries is walking over them and finding the most interesting thing is learning how to find unmarked graves So we can walk across them and find unmarked graves and and documenting the people there.
Debbie:And I'm trying to fill in the dash between birth date and death date with people. When I'm remembered, I don't want to be remembered for the year I was born and the year I died. I like to be remembered for some of what I did in the middle. So I try to fill in everybody's stories and have found some really interesting characters in our cemetery. So
T.J.:I bet. I bet. Is this an elected position you actually had to run for office?
Debbie:I have to run for office, reelected every 4 years. I'm on my 3rd term.
T.J.:Okay. Have you ever had an opponent before?
Debbie:No. Well, except for the first time.
T.J.:Okay.
Debbie:So the first time, I ran against the the supervisor at that time, and she was not very happy that I beat her in the election. So when I took over as supervisor, she refused to give me passwords on accounts and all the information I needed. She's like, nope. You're the new supervisor. Figure it out.
Debbie:So Wow. The 1st year was a tough one.
T.J.:Have you had any good campaign slogans?
Debbie:No. We live on probably the most traveled corner in the count in the township.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Debbie:So I just put a sign in my front yard saying 40 years of experience, vote for me, and I did. So Okay.
T.J.:Alright. Hey. Apparently, it's working.
Debbie:It's working. They keep reelecting me, and nobody's challenged me yet. So I guess we're good.
T.J.:What other responsibilities do you have?
Debbie:Outside of township supervisor or as a township supervisor? Yeah. Well, I have to prepare all the financial records. The audit, I write all the checks, pay all the bills, lead all the meetings. One of the things I did first was clean out the old records.
Debbie:Apparently, no one had ever thrown anything away in over 60 years. And it so I did a lot of purging. But a lot of it's just being the face of the township. People, if they look up the township, my name comes up and so I get a lot of interesting phone calls, interesting letters from people who are seeking information. So I'm kind of the historian becoming more so the historian of the township looking for where so and so used to live 50 years ago, even though I didn't even live here 50 years ago.
Debbie:So one lady wrote a letter and wanted to know her grandparents are buried in a mausoleum in one of the townships, and she wanted to know she lives in Maryland. If she drove out here, if I would let her into the mausoleum. And I'd always wanted to see inside that mausoleum, so I'm like, sure. So she came out and we got in there and it was really interesting. And come to find out, she is a distant cousin of Roy's when I was kinda tracing lines.
Debbie:Found out that not only did we connect through the cemetery, but we're related. So she's become a long time friend now. So it's been interesting. I enjoy it. I didn't really know what I was getting into, but I really enjoy.
Debbie:I love I've done bookkeeping since I was 12. My dad owned a business and his secretary sat me down and taught me double entry bookkeeping by hand back then. And so I love doing book work. Roy thinks I'm nuts, but I love doing book work. So
T.J.:Well, I'm glad that there are good folks like you out there because that is not an interest that I have.
Debbie:It is, it's been an interesting thing. I've served as treasurer of almost every organization I've been in because most people don't wanna touch the books with a 10 foot pole, and I'm like, God, do it. So I do a lot of that. But mostly, what I enjoy most is the public, like say meeting the public and getting to people have given me pictures from old pictures from township events that I've scanned in. We have a Facebook page and put on the page.
Debbie:And I do a lot of research. People like, there used to be a whatever store in this area, can you find out? And so I spend a lot of time chasing rabbit and going down rabbit trails instead of doing probably what I should be doing, but it's interesting. And then I do the same pretty much for the church. If anybody needs any information, for the presbytery or our church, they call and go, hey, what about such and such?
Debbie:So I'm kind of the historian of a broad area.
T.J.:So we've talked around. We hadn't even, specified the the area. So this is around Yale, Illinois. Is that correct?
Debbie:We are south of Casey, Illinois. Okay. Yale is in Jasper County and, our church is in Jasper County. The township I supervise is in Clark County. So we are in the south we're the far southwest corner of Clark County, and we touch Cumberland on one side and Jasper on the other.
Debbie:So we're. So our church is in a different county, but it's 3 miles away.
T.J.:Okay. I'm glad I asked because I would have been operating as in and like I said, we just got so used to it. I didn't even think to talk about which town for those who are listening.
Debbie:Yes. I live south of Casey, and that's where our township is. I always tell people, they say, where you where you live? And I start with, halfway between Indianapolis and St. Louis because everybody's heard of those two places.
Debbie:And if they want more specific, then we're halfway between Effingham and Terre Haute, Indiana. So to Effingham, Illinois and Terre Haute, Indiana. So we're out in the boonies. We didn't use to be even a wide spot in the road hardly, but one of the men here in town, got interested in building big things. And so Kazy now has 12 Guinness World Records for big things.
Debbie:We have the world's largest I'm not gonna name them all. And the world's largest wind chime rocking chair, knitting needle, crochet hook, pitchfork, wooden token, golf tee, teeter totter, and there's more. So wooden shoes. We have wooden shoes.
T.J.:Wow. Okay.
Debbie:So we have all these tourists now coming to KZ. It's so weird because no one had ever heard of KZ, and now people like, oh, my family and I went there last summer to see the big stuff. Okay.
T.J.:Are all of these located in one area, or they just kinda spread throughout the town?
Debbie:They're spread throughout the town. There are enough in one place that you can walk. They're all free to see. You can walk from one to the other. We have the world's largest mailbox.
Debbie:And if you go up in the mailbox and mail something in it, the red flag actually goes up and then goes back down like there's mail in the box. And then you get a special postmark. And and across from the mailbox, there's the birdcage. You can sit in a big birdcage and swing. A lot of photo ops and everything's free, so it's a good family getaway.
Debbie:And, it's just so odd to go to town and there's cars from Idaho and California and New York and like say when it used to be, if you said you lived in Illinois, everyone assumed you were from Chicago. Now Casey is starting to make a name for itself. So who knew?
T.J.:I imagine that your role, it sounds like it puts you in touch with a lot of, well, interesting people, not just as the mayor or the township supervisor. You've you've got square miles that you have to cover, but then you have these tourists coming. What's it like to meet, different people like that? And what do those conversations sound like? And, boy, I'm I'm piling question on top of question.
T.J.:How how does your faith inform the conversations that you begin?
Debbie:Well, since we live 6 miles south of Casey, and, I am an introvert, so you will never find me walking up to someone from another place and starting a conversation. That's Rory's job. He's the extrovert in the family. So I haven't talked to a whole lot of them that come to town to see the big things. I have conversed with a lot of people who have come looking for family in cemeteries.
Debbie:Like I say, I play with dead people a lot. But I try to treat people in a way that it leaves a good impression and that I'm not ashamed of my faith or shy about my faith, but they know I'm a Christian and we talk a lot. It's interesting how many, cemetery conversations turn into, well, my family went to church here and went to church there. 1 of our 2 of our cemeteries had churches in the, you know, the cemeteries around the church. So there's a lot of church conversations.
Debbie:And but I always try to leave a a good impression on people kind, and I try to be kind all the time. Some sometimes as a supervisor, I have to remind every year, I have to do I don't know what you call it sensitivity training, but pretty much for the township board that you can say whatever you want to someone as long as you're not wearing your township hat. But when you are in the township position, you can't say what you want to say. And one time, our road commissioner said, so if I get out of the truck and take my hat off, can I yell at him? No.
Debbie:Not as long as you're standing by our truck. But sometimes people it's it's in it's like in the church. You don't often hear from people who are pleased with what you do. You hear from the people who are not pleased. And we don't get very many people who come to township meetings and go, You guys are doing such a great job.
Debbie:And then we can go, Thank you. You get the ones that come and complain and so you just have to take it and smile and go, thank you for sharing and go from there. So
T.J.:Well, I reached out to you a couple years ago. I don't remember the time frame. But you had shared on Facebook just kind of a a a mini version of your faith journey. And I'm not on Facebook, but someone, had shared a part of it with me and had thought it was interesting and thought that I I would find it interesting. Be more and more of it, and that's what initiated reaching out to you to to be a guest here.
T.J.:Because when I read over it, I don't remember the details, But what I do remember is how it spoke to me. It was yeah. It was in text form or written form, but there had there had some passion and emotion there. And so, really, I'm trying to recapture that in just in audio form. And yet, my memory doesn't serve me well enough of how far back you began and even some of the details along the way.
T.J.:So I thought that maybe the 2 of us could kinda stumble through it together.
Debbie:There you go. Well, I grew up in the CP church. Actually, I'm a 4th generation CP. My family always went to church, but our my family was, especially my mother's family, is very dysfunctional. My mother was an abuser and I was her favorite target.
Debbie:And so growing up, I had a pretty rough go. But, we never
T.J.:And that abuse, verbal, physical, both?
Debbie:Both. My mother had a lot of anger and jealousy issues and she, I have 2 brothers and she saw me as competition for my dad's attention. I was the first girl born in my dad's family in 100 years. And so, she was like a rock star for having a girl, but then she quickly saw me as competition. And she never really abused my brothers.
Debbie:I was her favorite target. But at home, we never talked about God at home. We never said a blessing over a meal. Mom sang in the choir and taught Sunday school. My dad taught Sunday school.
Debbie:But when they came home when we came home from church, their Bibles were put in their room and we didn't really talk about God or faith at home.
T.J.:Very compartmentalized.
Debbie:Yes, very. And home was people at church. I mean, my mom, like a lot of abusers, had, a persona that everybody else saw and people are like, oh, you're so lucky. She's so you know? Like, you have no idea.
Debbie:But, when I was 7, our church had a revival, and I don't remember a single word of what the revival evangelist said. But on Saturday night, when he gave the invitation, I just knew I had to go forward. And so I was sitting next to my mom, and I said, I wanna go forward. And she said, no, you're too young. And so I sat there and just, you know, felt like, oh, I just gotta go.
Debbie:But she said no. And when she said no, no meant no, unless I wanted to suffer the consequences. And so Sunday morning was the wrap up of the revival, and mom was sitting in the choir not next to me. And when the evangelist gave the invitation, I just thought I have got to go. And whatever the consequences.
Debbie:And so I went forward, and a couple of my friends did also. And then the, minister asked the parents to come and stand with their child. And I thought, oh, this is not gonna be good. I didn't even look at her when I was walking down the aisle because I knew I was being disobedient and I didn't even make eye contact, but she came and stood behind.
T.J.:I was gonna ask you if you were one of those defiant children where you locked eyes as No. As you walked down the aisle.
Debbie:I spent my life walking on eggshells and trying not to upset the equilibrium. And so I didn't even look at her. I just went and I thought I've just got to go. And I don't even know what it was that I just had to. And so then, they had the parents come stand by their children and then everybody filed past us at the end of the service and shook hands and congratulated us.
Debbie:And and she was like, oh, you know, we're so excited for her. And I thought, okay. You know, it reflected well on her. And that was usually the only times that she, showed any pride or approval was if something I did reflected well on her. And so everybody was congratulating her on my decision, and she was so there were no consequences, but I was ready to face them regardless because I just had to go.
Debbie:And, but like I say, at home, we never really talked about God. There was never any if you're struggling with something, well, let's pray about it or why don't you pray about it? And it just would there was no faith at home. So I don't know. And like I say, I don't know that particular day why that Saturday night and Sunday morning, it was just agony not to walk down the aisle.
Debbie:And so, God really called me, but things didn't get any easier in my life after that. But
T.J.:So where did you what was your source of of discipleship from that early age?
Debbie:Well, I went to Sunday school and went to camp. I was blessed. Really, I struggled faith wise in growing, I'm sure, until I was about 12, maybe, and struggle with I was always teased as a kid because my mom never let me dress like the other kids. And so I was teased and I was always trying to blend into the wallpaper. I just wallflower, just leave me alone, very introverted.
Debbie:And then in, 1970, Craig Martindale and Marjorie Martindale came to be our pastor, and his family came. Craig junior was 1, and I became Craig Junior's primary babysitter. And I learned a lot from Margie. I'd never seen a good marriage. I'd never seen a couple.
Debbie:My parents fought all the time. I'd never seen a couple relate to each other in an appropriate way. And so watching Craig and Margie, and then there was another couple in the church that had 3 kids, that were about Craig Junior's fit in with them. So I watched all 4 of those kids and watched those 2 families more than anything to learn how a healthy family interacts. And and then, that was a big growth time in my faith was just seeing how a Christian household operates because I hadn't ever experienced that.
T.J.:Were you ever able to reconcile with your mother?
Debbie:God forced me to. I, my dad and I were close. We're very much alike. He was very introverted and quiet and easygoing. And so we were very close.
Debbie:My dad's health failed a lot. And I'm from Louisville, Kentucky and my parents were still in Louisville. And so for 2 years, I spent every other week in Louisville doing housework and paying bills and taking them to doctor visits, cooking food up for the fridge, that kind of thing, and trying to help them out. And then finally, I told my dad, if I'm going to be your primary caregiver, you need to move closer to me. And the only reason I brought my mother is because I had to.
Debbie:If I could have just brought my dad and left her behind, I probably would have. She had dementia by then. And so, the I guess that was the only good thing about it was she was so mean to me. And the way I knew she had something wrong with her was I went home for the weekend and the whole weekend went by and she didn't throw anything at me or yell at me or downgrade me. And so I came home that weekend and I told Roy, something's wrong with mom.
Debbie:And he's like, why? Because she didn't just tear me apart while I was there that weekend. And so she did get a little easier on me when she started in with dementia. But, anyways, we brought him up here. That was in 2005, And my dad died 5 months later, and we ended up bringing my mom home.
Debbie:I left her in the in the nursing home for she had paid for long term health insurance thing. So I left her in there till her benefits ran out, and then we had to bring her home. And I remember how hard it was when everybody at church was like, oh, such a blessing to have your mom with you. And I thought, if you only knew, it was the hardest thing I've ever done. And it was an opportunity to make a decision, I guess.
Debbie:She still was hitting me. Even as an adult, she would hit me, and there was a part of that child in me that wanted to say, I'm big enough now to hit back and just, you know, take my revenge, I guess, in a way. That was the moments then I would holler at Roy and go, your turn with mom, and I'd go somewhere else. But, God helped me through that time to see that I should feel sorry for her because she spent her whole life being angry and hateful and ruining a relationship that could have been a good one if she was willing. She was such an unhappy person that she couldn't live her life.
Debbie:I mean, she was just bitter. And and I learned to feel sorry for somebody that had wasted basically their whole life just being angry. And God pretty well told me you can either forgive her or you can be bitter too. And so I did learn to forgive her and she never knew it. I think one thing that kids who are abused would like is for their abuser to acknowledge that they did wrong and maybe even apologize.
Debbie:I didn't get that, but God helped me to see that I didn't need that to be whole. My kids, I broke the cycle, the cycle of abuse goes back to at least my great grandparents. I don't know beyond that, but I know my great grandparents were abusive. And I broke the cycle with God's help. And I have 3 kids who are stellar parents and so loving and grew up in a loving home.
Debbie:And for that, I am eternally grateful. But it wasn't an easy journey. It was a hard one. When our oldest daughter was about 3, I heard my mother's words coming out of my mouth aimed at her. And I thought, oh my gosh, the words I hated so much and thought I would never say.
Debbie:And I just told God, you know, whatever it takes, if you gotta break me down completely, whatever it takes, I do not want my children to grow up like I grew up. And so he put the right people in my place, in my area at the right time to mentor me. And, like, say, Margie was one of the top ones, but, it's been a journey.
T.J.:Yeah. Isn't it strange to hear other people's words come out of your mouth and you have that moment of wake up call? It's like, oh, wait. I said I was never going to say that or I was never going to do. And then you find yourself in that situation.
Debbie:And it just happens. It's not with any forethought. It just is an instinct. And you're like, oh my gosh.
T.J.:It's gut wrenching.
Debbie:It is.
T.J.:You know, because I, you can feel it flush over your face. There's like a sense of guilt, and it's scary. And and I don't know. It's like a it's a human check. It's like a pit you can feel that it is a pivotal moment right then and there that you're facing, and it has multiple paths.
T.J.:And it, man, it takes a it takes a person of deep commitment. And I would argue faith commitment to go, oh, there is another way. It's harder. Right.
Debbie:But it's better. And people, one blessing that I'm so grateful for is our daughter was young enough that she doesn't remember that happening. So my kids never do. I do. Yes, I will never forget hearing that.
Debbie:But my kids never remember being cut down and abused and that kind of thing, and and so I'm so grateful for that that she doesn't remember it. But it is a hard struggle. And and people are always like, well, you know, if if you don't like being abused, you stop it. Well, but it's all you know. And you don't know it's not everybody's reality until you get older.
Debbie:You just assume everybody's household is as dysfunctional as yours. And and then by the time you realize that, oh, wait. We're not the typical family. You don't have the tools to to make the change. How do it's like handing I told somebody the other day we were talking about this.
Debbie:It's like handing a kid a trigonometry book and going, okay. You're 18. You should be able to do trig. Here you go. You you don't have the 2 you know, if you didn't have all the math up to that, you don't have the tools to do it.
Debbie:And people, don't know that you don't know how to discipline properly if you've never been disciplined properly. I conflict resolution. When we got married, I made up my mind that I was gonna say whatever you want to anything Roy said because to me, conflict meant hour long screaming and fighting with each other. So I never disagreed with him. I never spoke up when I didn't think what we were doing, if I didn't want to do what we were doing.
Debbie:I never did that. And it didn't occur to me until several years later, he made some kind of comment. I forget that I was really cheating him by not being a partner, by putting everything on him to make decisions, and by not being me. And bless his heart, the person he married or the person he met and fell in love with and the person he's married to are 2 totally different people. Because I've and he has encouraged me every step of the way to grow and to change and to stand up for myself and to express my opinions.
Debbie:But I still struggle with how to do conflict resolution, I guess you'd say, in a healthy manner because I never learned it. And and once you we got married when I was 17. As soon as I graduated high school, we got married. And, so I never had a chance to live in another family and see how they handled conflict so much. I mean, I did the 2 families I babysat, but I wasn't there all the time.
Debbie:And I'm sure they didn't have many conflicts in front of me, really. But, but I didn't learn that.
T.J.:Waited until you left.
Debbie:Yeah. They don't you don't do that in front of the company. So I've had to just ask people. I've done a lot of reading, a lot of studying, a lot of praying. How do I address this situation?
Debbie:But, my abuse and dysfunction in the beginning has turned out to be a blessing in a lot of ways. In my cabinet camp, I end up with all the kids who are the misfits. It's not I I used to think it was intentional. But, you know, kids come to camp with their church group and they want to stay together in a cabin. And I got all the kids who came because they just heard about camp, came by themselves, kids who don't fit in with other kids.
Debbie:I have I got I had a girl one year who was at camp. She was on probation while she was at camp. I've had kids who are cutters. I've had kids who are struggling to identify, where they are sexually. I've had kids of abuse.
Debbie:I've had I get all the misfits. Actually, 1 year, the camp director, there was a girl in my cabin, and the camp director said, she's almost too normal for your cabin. I was like, thank you. But but, really, if you think about I mean, the people I grew up with, I can't think of anybody else I grew up with in church who had lived in an abusive situation. And so these kids come to camp, and it's hard for them to go confide in someone who's, you know, never had that.
Debbie:And somehow, we seek seem to recognize that in each other. And so the kids stay in my cabin. And usually, once they're in my cabin, they stay there their whole time in camp because they know that I'm not judging them. I've been where they are. I have some tools I can help them with.
Debbie:I have kids who were in my cabin 20 years ago, 25 years ago that are still in touch with me regularly. Well, my daughter used to say when her daughter was diagnosed with cancer, it's a club you never wanted to join, but you have something in common that pulls you together. And so God's really used my abuse to help me and help other people. But sometimes I struggle with how much of that to share with people. Some people think you're doing a, oh, feel sorry for me and or applaud me because look, I came out of it and other people didn't.
Debbie:But I didn't do any of it. I mean, God really orchestrated the whole thing and I look back and just see how it is and all of us looking back and just see how we had the done, met this person at this time or done this at that time, our life would have been totally different. So, my life has been a life of faith, I guess.
T.J.:Well, and you take, a traumatic experience. And just because it happened, you know, 10, 20, 40, 50 plus years ago, doesn't make it any less because it's still a part of you. So it's not like you've taken off a jacket and you hung it up in the closet and that's where it stays. It's still
Debbie:It's in your DNA. You know, I mean, you know, it's in your cells. It's it's something you never forget. But
T.J.:Yeah. It can't it can't help not inform well, you alluded to this already where, like, your reactions to situations. Maybe that's where it pops up the most or had popped up in the most of those moments that needed a response, or pushed your buttons, or triggered an emotion, and the what the method that you were accustomed to seeing was the first one that went through the cycle. Right. Or, well, should I say Rolodex, but then that can be dating your database, your memory bank.
T.J.:I don't know.
Debbie:Those flash cards we used since no. Go way back. Yeah. I have cards. I have cards about that.
Debbie:Yeah. It is hard, and it's hard to control your brain because it really does have to go through all those channels sometimes before you I've learned to be very cautious in speaking because I need to give my brain time to go through. Nope. Inappropriate, inappropriate, inappropriate. Oh, yeah.
Debbie:This one's good. But and I've also found that the church has been the worst place for me to share my story because, literally, I can't think of anyone in my church, that has had any experience near mine. And 1 year in Sunday school class, the opening question, we were gonna talk about how we are trying to be like God. And the opening question was, how are you like your dad? How are you like your mom?
Debbie:And we went around the group and and I said, well, I hope I'm not like my mother at all. And, man, people are, you don't mean that? Take that back. Well, you know? I thought, no, I really do mean that.
Debbie:And, it was very judgmental. And so I've learned that there's safe places to share and there's unsafe places to share, even in the Christian community. Because a lot of people, if it hasn't been their experience, then it's not a legitimate experience. Does that make sense?
T.J.:Yeah. Like, I mean, your experience, I have not I have not encountered. So but I like, like, this conversation that we're having now. It gives context and understanding. So, you know, if I was to bump in to you or another acquaintance, I'm go, oh, well, that was an odd reaction.
T.J.:I now have context to Right. To, go, well, maybe this feeds into it or maybe Debbie just doesn't like me. But anyway, I have one more. But you know what I mean. I have one more thing to go, okay.
T.J.:I have a better understanding.
Debbie:Right. Yes. And I have major trust issues. I, every kid who's grown up abused has major trust issues, And I can name 5 people maybe that I trust. And I have trusted people that I really thought were trustworthy and then had that come around and and be, ruined.
Debbie:So I really don't trust people. And God has been really good to me because sometimes God knows I have trouble trusting him too. And, God has been very good to give me signs. I know that sounds weird to a lot of people, but I don't trust my own judgment sometimes because of my abuse background. And I have, like, say, maybe 4 or 5 trusted advisors that have not yet run that situation.
Debbie:But when I feel God telling me to do something, I have asked for a sign, and God has really been gracious to give me signs because God knows better than anyone that I have these issues. Roy and I met, he went to Louisville to go to college or to a tech school and his dorm was a mile from First CP Church where I grew up. So he grew up Cumberland Presbyterian also. So he came there to church. When we met, I was 13 and he was 19.
Debbie:I had been passing for 18 since I was 12 because that's another sign of being abused as you grow up. I matured very early. And I was really tall for my age, and he had no idea how old I was, and I did not enlighten him at all. So so, we went to church together and he, you know, kind of flirted around. And and then someone told him how old I was, and then he didn't speak to me for about a month while he processed that.
Debbie:But, we both just felt like God had brought us together for a reason. And then he went into the air force when I was in I guess I was a sophomore in high school. And everyone was like, well, you know, outside out of mind. You were his girlfriend while he was here, blah blah. And it won't last, you're too young, you're just wanna get married to get away from home and all these things.
Debbie:So I really prayed that God would help me know if those things were true, and I was just, you know, in a delusion of some kind. And so I had read in the Bible about getting inputting out a fleece. So I, on the way walking home from school one day, I prayed that if if I was supposed to stay with Roy, if I was supposed to marry him, that that I would have a letter waiting when I got home from school. And so I went home, and there was a letter. And I thought, okay, but like Gideon, you know, don't go with just one test.
Debbie:So Roy hardly ever wrote more than once a week. I wrote him every day like a diligent girlfriend does, but he wrote me about once a week. And so I prayed that if it really was supposed to be, that there would be another letter the next day, knowing the odds were high against that. I was trying not to stack the deck. And so I got home the next day and there was a letter there.
Debbie:And so I was like, Okay. And people told us it ain't gonna work. He was I was 17. He was 23 when we got married. My dad wouldn't let us get married till I got out of high school.
Debbie:And, and so everybody's like, it'll never work. And and, we've been married almost 51 years. So it's it's still, I think, gonna make it. But but, you know, a lot of times when I really felt god calling me to do something, I have just been honest and said, I need you to put a neon sign out or skywriting or something because I don't trust my own judgment and I have very few trusted advisers. And there's just some things you can't talk to somebody else about.
Debbie:So and god has done that. So I've been really blessed.
T.J.:Yeah. I think you've, proven a lot of people wrong over the course of your lifetime of of hanging in there and overcoming and kind of looking over your life, your faith, even as a child and a teenager and a young adult, how is it informing you in terms of you could obviously go, okay. This situation, it doesn't feel right. It doesn't sound right, but I don't know of another alternative. It's gotta be discouraging.
T.J.:It seems like it would have been pretty easy to just kind of walk away from the faith thing, especially if trust has been violated by adults and authorities and people that you look up to. I think that kinda can carry up in terms of relationship with God. What kept you centered?
Debbie:Really? Because I think God was all I could trust in.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Debbie:I mean, I learned that I couldn't I've been sexually assaulted a couple of times by individuals that I trusted and have had some really bad advice given me if you aren't trusted. And so I think that it may be one reason why God has been so good to give me signs because I really feel like God is the only person I can ask for advice in a lot of situations. I talk to Roy about things, but men think differently than women do. I don't care how long you've known each other. You just think differently and things that he's like, oh, that's no big deal.
Debbie:It's like, yeah, it is. But but God's been really good. And I think that's the only adviser that I've had some really wonderful, women mentors, but they eventually have died off. And and so then you just can't be going, well, I don't know who to talk to. So God's really been the only I've ever had to talk to all along.
Debbie:Even in the abuse situation, I you know, what did I do to deserve to be abused? Why me? Is this how loving God is that you let your kids be abused? And I really questioned a lot, but I knew that God's intent, God had a plan. I just knew God had a plan, didn't have a clue what it was.
Debbie:But I just knew there was one. And that was really the only thing I could cling to, I guess. And, that comes down to it. That's all you have is faith. God is the only constant cling to, but in a different way than, you know, a lot of people do.
T.J.:Well, I think for people to have the Christian faith, maybe maybe compared to those who do not, for us to bring our questions and our problems and the things that overwhelm us and share them with God knowing that they are never going to be bigger. Right. Because they may overwhelm a loved one or a coworker, an extra neighbor, or a good friend who and they come and go. You know, think Right. Circumstances, things happen.
T.J.:And to have that, oh, consistency, you know, ongoing.
Debbie:God doesn't change.
T.J.:Well, the availability as well. And and, again, not running off, you know, like, you know, maybe with a neighbor in the front, you can end up scaring people.
Debbie:Right.
T.J.:You know?
Debbie:Yeah. Some people don't know how to handle something they've never had experience with. And every year when I go to camp and somebody's like, can I talk to you? I just panic. I'm sure everyone does.
Debbie:You get that panic thing. Oh, my gosh, what are they gonna ask me? And please, God, give me an answer. And and, like I said, I don't know how we identify each other, but we seem to know we have that in common. And kids will talk to me and literally as at the moment the answer is needed, It's like it just comes into my head.
Debbie:God puts it there. It's been I guess that's one reason my faith is so strong is because it's happened over and over and over. It wasn't a one time mountain top moment when god has come in and said, here's what you need to do. It's just been a conversation by conversation. I mean, there's things that come out of my mouth sometimes that I wish I had a recording because I can't believe I said that.
Debbie:And it wasn't me. It was God talking through me. And I do some speaking, and I just preached at the Casey church on denomination Sunday. And when I was writing that sermon, God pulled about as much out of it as he put into. It's like no you don't need that you don't need that you don't need that and then I shared it with someone and they're like oh my gosh that is awesome how did you do that?
Debbie:I'm like well, technically, I didn't. My fingers were typing but it wasn't me. And I don't know, I just had this ability to god just speaks into my head. And I I told at presbytery, I was a moderator of our presbytery and needed to prepare a sermon for presbytery. And I have ADHD, and so sometimes to get my attention, God literally hits me with a 2 by 4.
Debbie:I mean, something happens, it just stops me in my tracks. And here it was a week before presbytery, and I still didn't have an inkling. And I kept thinking, oh, I don't want a 2 by 4 moment because it was really hard. But I just had nothing. And we were in Houston and we were at church with our son and his family.
Debbie:And all of a sudden, it was one of those, like, TV moments where you're pulled out of the room, you can see and hear what's going on, but it's like you're pulled into a different dimension or something. And I could literally see in front of me the outline for the sermon. It was the weirdest thing. And I went home and used that outline and wrote the sermon. And and and then I told him, I said, just so you know where this came from, but but I have those experiences not infrequently.
Debbie:I don't wanna say, you know, like every week, I have a out of body experience, but they have not been infrequent.
T.J.:And this may be an example of you ask for signs. You ask for directions. And and so you're you're you're seeking them, you're requesting them, as opposed to maybe the total opposite is, I have the answers. I know the solutions, or I'm gonna do this on my own. So I the posture, I think, in the relationship with God affects the relationship and how we communicate and how we can hear the workings of the Holy Spirit.
Debbie:Well, I think
T.J.:Oh, go ahead.
Debbie:You can say anything to God, and I've learned that. And and I don't know, a few years ago when I was having to deal with my mom again, taking care of her, I just was so angry. You know, why me? And why can't I get over this? And why am I an adult and still allowing her to do this to me?
Debbie:And, I don't wanna say I had a pity party, but, God pretty well said, just give it up. And I just literally sat there and cried for the childhood I should have had and didn't because you don't get to have a childhood when you're in an abusive situation. You have to grow up pretty quickly. And I just sat there and cried for the childhood I didn't have and the relationship I didn't have. You know, I didn't have the mom and daughter go shopping together thing or Mhmm.
Debbie:Or I have people whose moms have died and they're like, oh, I miss talking to her. We talk 2 or 3 times a day. Never had any of that and just grieved for it. And then it was like I was able to let it go. And I would have never thought about that, but like I say, God God is a loving father, and and he wants us healed more than anybody does, more than we wanna be healed.
Debbie:He wants us healed. And so he's used some really odd circus. I mean, I when I had to bring my mother to my house and take care of her 20 fourseven, I was like, you have abandoned me because no loving God would make me do this. But he did it for me, not her. And it took me a while to see that.
Debbie:But he did it for my benefit, not her benefit.
T.J.:I'm chuckling because it was hard. I'm chuckling only because it must have been hard to appreciate the moment.
Debbie:Oh, impossible to appreciate the moment. It's just looking back that you can see that God did that for me. And, like I say, Roy helped a ton with taking care of my mom. She never liked him when we were dating. Part of it was the age thing.
Debbie:But she never really liked him and then she really liked him when she got dementia. So, you know, I just waited for his car to pull in the driveway. I was like, I need 15 minutes away. Please just but he and when she would get abusive, he would go and and talk to her and kind of be like a dad to her, you know? Hey, you need to and she'd listen to him, but, I couldn't have done it without him and god used him.
Debbie:I mean, most husbands would not encourage their wife to become somebody she totally was not when he met her. And every opportunity that's come by, he's like, try it, and you might like it. Church opportunities. First time I was offered an opportunity beyond denominational board, I thought, what have I got to contribute to that? And he's like, well, go see.
Debbie:So he's been such an encourager, and and that was a gift from God too because, up until I met him, I was always intrigued by the bad boys, and I think that's because coming from a bad situation, you that they're the familiar, maybe. And Roy was definitely when he came to Kentucky in 67, He was about 10 years behind the latest fashion. He had a buzz haircut, more white socks with black shoes and, you know, he did not fit in. He was definitely straight off the farm. And I don't know, that was kind of interesting.
Debbie:But, but God orchestrated all that. And I keep telling Roy that, that the only reason God sent you to Louisville was to meet and marry me because he never used the education he got from that school at all. And and so the only thing he has to show for those years is me. Hey. But he has been a blessing and I have no doubt that God orchestrated all of that too.
Debbie:But sometimes when God's in charge of orchestrating, it looks really bad to the other people watching. I shared with the kids at camp. I did a seminar last year about making decisions and told them about putting out a fleece, but I also told them that I was 13 and Roy was 19 when we met and and one kid went, oh, that's awful. And I said, well, it was a different era for one thing, but, a lot of the girls in my high school class were already married. It was during Vietnam and a lot of girls were marrying young because their boyfriends were going to Vietnam.
Debbie:And actually, Roy was supposed to go to Vietnam, but he got canceled at the last minute. But it was just a different era. And, you know, yeah, my mom could have had him arrested, I suppose. But I don't know. Like I say, God just orchestrated that whole thing and he protected us throughout all of that.
Debbie:And, you know, and like say, we could say I told you so to a lot of people, but most of them are dead now, All these years later, so I guess they know that.
T.J.:Debbie, you've been playing the piano in various churches, for well over 50 years. Albuquerque. Tennessee, Illinois, Italy. Where did you learn to play? And, I mean, it's a ministry in the church, but let's start with kind of the story of how you learned to play and why you're playing in churches.
Debbie:I, don't have the foggiest idea why I was interested in piano, but I remember when, First Church met downtown, Lavonne Springer, that became Lavonne Acton and a missionary, she played the piano for our church, and I was, like, 3. And I would just stand there and watch her play, and I always wanted to play the piano. And my mother I said something to her when I was, I think, 9 or 10 about I want to learn how to play the piano. And she's like, you won't stick with it. And so I drew a paper keyboard and taught myself to play on paper, which sounds really good because you don't make any mistakes when there's no sound coming out of the paper.
Debbie:And so I guess I look desperate enough that they bought a used piano. And I took piano lessons for a year. And again, it's just a gift. I, I know people took piano lessons for 10 years and can't play hardly anything. And I took lessons for a year and have talked to people and had some guidance.
Debbie:But I started playing for our church when I was 12. Then when Roy and I married, he was stationed in Italy. And one of the things they have you do when you come on base is to go to the chapel and sign in and they have a form to fill out if you have any interest in being in the choir or whatever. And so I put on there that I was interested in the choir and that I played piano. So I became the pianist and organist for the Catholic and the Protestant chapel.
Debbie:So I had 4 church services every Sunday morning that I played for, which was a hoot. And I had never been to a Catholic service until I started playing for him, so I had to learn a lot there. And then, we came home and we were in Indiana for a year and I helped, some with the piano there but then we moved to Nashville and I was a pianist at Goodlettsville CP for 7 years And then we moved to Illinois where Roy's from. And, we've been here 41 years this year, and I've played ever since we got here. And, it's just I keep telling people it's nothing I do.
Debbie:It's just a gift. And, I developed the gift maybe a little bit, but the interest was there. There's nobody in my family that played piano. There's nobody in my family played any instrument, but I have had this longing to play the piano since I was 3. So
T.J.:Wow. Do you play by ear or can you read music?
Debbie:Oh, no. I read music. I used to bang around. And I can do some by ear. I've played for some gospel quartets where basically you're just playing chords, but now I read music and taught piano for a while, which is interesting.
Debbie:I hardly ever took lessons, but I could teach it, I guess. And all 3 of our kids are very instrumental, and so it's a love of music. My whole family, my children and their children and my brothers and my mom and dad are all good singers. And so we all sing and have sung at events and things like that. So music's something our family enjoys.
Debbie:Our oldest granddaughter is currently in college studying to be a music and band director, and all of our grandkids play instruments and, like I say it. It's just that I have no idea where that came from, that I just knew I had to play the piano. And it has been a good release when I'm really feeling frustrated. I can go bang on the piano as much as I want, loud as I want. And when I just wanna worship, I can sit and play worship songs and just feel the spirit falling over me and, you know, it's but it's been a gift and it's been a way to open doors that might not have been opened otherwise.
Debbie:So
T.J.:That's interesting that I'm not a musician, but it can take you to different places. So playing an instrument can take you well, it can be a way to vent and take you to a better, maybe more calmer place.
Debbie:Mental place. Yeah. It's a very mental activity. And then
T.J.:it it can also carry you into a a worshipful experience and and a joyful experience, a joyful expression to God. Yeah.
Debbie:Depending on what music you choose to play and there were, you know, when you're really frustrated, there's some really good Beethoven you can bang out. But it's it's been a good release. When we were overseas, I did not actually have a piano to play. And that year and a half we were in Italy was a long year and a half. I played for church, but I didn't have one at home I could practice on or play.
Debbie:And I'm a really good sight reader because I hated practicing for piano lessons. And so a lot of times, I didn't look at the music between lessons, and I would get there and just play it by sight. And so I sight read pretty well. That's another gift. But, it's
T.J.:been you didn't wanna study.
Debbie:Yes. Exactly. Well, my piano teacher, she taught classical music and which is good, but, you know, you wanted to play something you'd heard on the radio or something that you knew playing my first and only recital, I think it was, she assigned me a song that both hands played octaves the whole time because I have big hands. And I was the only student she had. What was a funeral dirge Was the song.
Debbie:It was a funeral song, and it was all in minor, and it was just depressing. It's like, I hate this music. Oh, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. So I quit so I could play whatever I wanted, basically.
Debbie:But, but I have gone to church services. Our son went to University of Missouri in Columbia, Missouri, and he was going to a startup church. And and we walked in 1 Sunday. I was out there visiting him. We walked into church, and the pastor said, something about, does anyone here play piano?
Debbie:He said, our pianist just called and she's sick and didn't wanna make it. And my son's like, my mom does. And so here I am in a church I'd never been in before. And that happens not infrequently either, Then I end up going to a church and playing the piano. So, but it's a it's a gift and it's been a blessing.
Debbie:And, yes, it's a mood changer. It can be. When you need something to calm you down, you might as well take it out on the 88 keys as opposed to the people around you, I guess.
T.J.:Yeah. Well, yeah. It sound yeah. You're giving you're giving something that is more enjoyable than maybe, I don't know, a punch in the gut or There
Debbie:you go.
T.J.:There you go. Or word words that you you wish that you could take back after you said. Yeah.
Debbie:Once they're said, it's, they're out. But you can you can say them in your head while you're banging on the piano and nobody knows. Or Or you can even whisper them and no one can hear them. It's a gift. And when I played for, I was a paid musician.
Debbie:They paid their musicians, and that's probably the only church I've ever played in that I was paid. Well, the the chapel on the air force base paid me but, I don't know. I've always felt like god gives us gifts to use, not to I mean, if you can make a living playing the piano, that's one thing, but that's never been my goal by any means. But I think God expects us to use the gifts he gives us. And then to me, the more you use them, it's that thing if you're faithful in the small things, God's faithful in the big things that the more I use the gifts he gives me, the more opportunities he's given me to use them and and develop them.
Debbie:So,
T.J.:And that that's a good segue to, gosh, the the service to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. You sent me kind of some highlights for a bio. Sunday school teacher, elder, treasurer, musician, member of program committee, and this is just at New Hope Cumberland Presbyterian Church. So I'll stop. I'll let you pick up and just kinda some of the other areas of service that you've been a part of.
Debbie:I am currently the treasurer of the presbytery, North Central Presbyterian. I have been. I think this is my 29th or 30th year. And I've served as a moderator of our Then I am the state of Then I am the state of clerk treasurer of the Senate of the Midwest, and I am on the, board of stewardship in Memphis. I served on the general assembly council for 9 years Mhmm.
Debbie:And before it became the ministry council. And then, I've been this is my 3rd time being on the board of stewardship, I believe. So, like I say, I play with money a lot.
T.J.:Yeah. I was I was about to say it's that treasure skills that you have.
Debbie:Right. What But I enjoy it.
T.J.:Yeah. I was about to ask, out of the different places that you're currently serving or have served in the past, what which one or which area has brought you the most joy, in serving God's church, which happens to be the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Debbie:Exactly. The youth work, working at camps. And, for a while, there were a group of girls in Casey who were active in our church camp, and they, they were not CPs. They were friends of CPs who'd invited them to go or whatever. And, their freshman year of high school, they were commenting at camp when we were all getting ready to go home that no matter how determined they are to to hold fast to the commitments they've made to Christ while at camp, you go home, and they were in very, some of them in very dysfunctional homes.
Debbie:You go home and pretty soon you're back in that old rut again. So I started a Bible study here at the house for all those girls. And we met together for, I think, 5 years before they all went off to college. Met twice a month, and I'd feed them and lead them in some worship songs, and then we had a bible study. And that group was a blessing.
Debbie:And then one of the kids at our church, a boy, he had made a commitment at camp to follow Christ, and he knew it wasn't his first time he committed, but this time, he knew something was different. And he knew the only way he was going to stay on the path was to just leave all his friends behind. So one night, our girls' bible study group was meeting and he walked in the door with chocolate chip cookies from Pizza Hut. And we're sitting here eating and he sat down and, Here, I brought you all some cookies. And I'm like, Oh, great.
Debbie:And then when we got ready to have bible study, I'm like, well, thanks for the cookies, but you need to leave now because even Roy went down the basement. So the girls felt like they could talk about anything while we were together. And he's like, nope. I'm staying. And I'm like, no.
Debbie:Seriously. This is a girl's group. He's like, well, not anymore. It's girls and a boy. And so it became the big kids camp girls and boy bible study.
Debbie:And he came and then some other boys started coming. And so then Roy had to come up from out down in the basement and join the group. But working with the young people who really just need a safe place, a safe person, some kind of stable environment they can trust has been a real blessing because it's just happened over and over again. It's Roy and I both have the gift of hospitality, and so our house is open to pretty much everybody. And so it's been a blessing to see that happen and to see that young man is now a minister in the CP church, and he has credited that bible study group for getting him to that point.
Debbie:To see the changes in their lives and to know that God has used us to help in some way. 1 of the girls ended up coming and living with us for about 6 months and we've had people here that stayed for shorter terms because they needed a safe place. And so that has been my real joy. I could I love everything I do. But working with the young people and watching how God has used our home and our lives to impact them is just been a blessing.
Debbie:And I hope that continues for a while yet. We're getting old, but still, I'm not ready to give up camp yet, and they keep inviting me to come. So I may be there in my walker or wheelchair or something. I don't know. But but that is my joy is working with young people, especially young people who were like I was, who wanted to make a change in their lives, didn't know how to make the change and or who to ask that they could trust because and so that trust environment and the kids in my cabin know that nothing that's done in there, said in there, goes outside those walls in that room.
Debbie:They know, I can be trusted and they know I'm safe. And sometimes I don't agree with their decisions, but, you know, they know that when I say that, I'm not saying I don't like you, I don't love you, I don't support you. I'm just saying, I think you can make a better decision. But, you know, if you decide to do this and it doesn't work out, come back and I'm still gonna be here. I don't care what you do, I'm still gonna be here.
Debbie:And so I have I just get so blessed by them. It's just a high to Watch their stories on Facebook come out and they're raising their families in the church and they're active in their churches. And it's just I'm a beaming grandmother to, you know, hundreds of children. So anyway
T.J.:And to see that arc, you know, to to see the growth, the the failures that come with growth, struggles, the joys, and to be a part of that. To to be, the the people that were in your life and and some that weren't in your life, to be that person for other people
Debbie:is
T.J.:pretty pretty great place to be.
Debbie:It is. It it makes it makes what you've gone through seem worthwhile when you can use those experiences to keep others from having to go down that same road or maybe shorten their path a little bit by saying, you know, you can skip these 8 steps and just go straight to number 9 here because those 8 aren't good.
T.J.:To be offered an alternative and I I think that a relationship with Jesus Christ is an alternative to our own our own choices, our own devices, our own plans. I sometimes people aren't aware youth and adults have not been given that, hey, there's a choice here. There's an alternative. And you don't have to do it alone.
Debbie:Right. Yeah. I think, a lot of kids who are in bad situations don't see a way out. And to show them that there is a way out and that begins with your faith in Jesus because, like I say, God wants you to be whole and happy more than anybody else in the ever. And and to know that you can trust that even if it looks like he's not helping you, he really is behind it'll work out.
Debbie:And there's always a light at the end of the road. Sometimes the road's longer than other roads, but there's always a light. And I think it's so easy to fall back into the rut of what you grew up in, and that's what happens. Like, I read something about the Asbury revival and someone's like, Oh, it reminds me of going to church camp and just being on a high, and then I go home and it fades, and I hope this doesn't fade. And I think that a lot of kids, when they've done that, like that boy did, go to camp year after year, make a commitment, come home and then right back in the old rut, it helps them to know that it's worth the valley.
Debbie:It's worth giving up all your friends if that's what it takes. It's worth standing alone if that's what it takes. It's worth being the odd duck. And the things and I've told them a 1000000 times, those kids in high school, that you're trying so hard to fit into that group will all fall apart when you graduate high school anyways. I mean, how many of us still hang with all well, some people may, but I have, like, 2 close friends from my high school and there were 465 kids in my senior class, and I have 2 of them that I'm still in touch with.
Debbie:I mean, you you work so hard and you waste so much time and energy trying to fit into that group and then for what? So if you fit in with God's group, then that's gonna follow you the whole rest of your life.
T.J.:And Right.
Debbie:And But
T.J.:but that goes back to what you know. If if your if your circumstances and your world is so small or limited
Debbie:Right.
T.J.:And this is this is who you know and what this is what's been given to you in in the course of a day. These are the people you're gonna interact with, and maybe you didn't choose them to begin with.
Debbie:Right.
T.J.:So, yeah, I can see. I I can remember but also see, you know, that there's a it's a struggle. It's like, well, this is who I'm stuck with for the next 2, 3, 4 years.
Debbie:Right.
T.J.:How do I get along? How do I blend in? How do how do I make friends? How do I keep them as friends? Yeah.
T.J.:I'm not defend it's just a tough time.
Debbie:Being an introvert Yeah. Not having a lot of friends doesn't bother me. When the when the pandemic hit, and we all had to stay home, I was in my happy place, because I am so shy. And people don't believe that. But I am I mean, if I don't speak to you when I see you, if I go down the other aisle at the grocery store to avoid you, it's not because I don't like you.
Debbie:It's because I am so socially anxious. I just have this anxiety. I just always so I was really happy. And, our oldest daughter, she's a hugger and she's a people person, and she was miserable. She's like, I need hugs.
Debbie:I'm like, oh, no. You know? But,
T.J.:See, David, you're telling the wrong person this because the next time I see you if I see you run away from me, we're both gonna be uncomfortable together.
Debbie:I just I don't know. Roy's a people person, and we go places, and he talks to everyone. And I am so it's funny because, of course, Roy has a white beard for those who don't know. He looks like Santa Claus. He plays Santa Claus.
Debbie:And so his face is memorable to people. We go places, and if I'm with him, people speak to me. I've lived south of Casey now for, I don't know, 25 years. If I go to Casey, which is 6 miles away, nobody knows me if I'm not with him because I just shrink back. It's just my nature.
Debbie:Part of it from being abused and part of it just my personality that I just am. I was incredibly shy as a kid and I'm no less shy now. But if I know you, then it's a whole different thing. But I do not like strangers, so so it's kind of a funny unfunny thing, I guess. But, but, yeah, I don't strike up a lot of conversations.
Debbie:And so anyone listening to this, if I don't talk to you, you you'd have to speak first probably to get a time.
T.J.:Alright. With over 50 years of marriage, what advice do you have for others?
Debbie:Oh my. That's a tough one. Well, one is remember that you're supposed to be on the same team. I did a post on our 50th anniversary on Facebook book about married life, 3 hints, 3 things I've learned. One was that your wedding day is just a day in the year.
Debbie:People get so hung up if your wedding doesn't go perfectly, You know, it just wrecked you and I did not get to plan my own wedding. My mother took that over. I didn't even get to choose my own dress. But at the end of the day, we were married when the service was over, and that's what we wanted. And and I think that's an important thing to remember that that, you know, you want to be married to each other, then focus on that.
Debbie:Plan for the marriage. Mhmm. Another thing was that it's okay that sometimes you don't like each other. There have been days that didn't really like him at all. And and, retirement has not been my best friend, because he's home all the time.
Debbie:But, I mean, I love him to death, but there are days I just or, like, just I need alone time. But, but, you know, at the end of the day, we always remember we love each other even though we may not like each other in the moment. We've been through a hard time with a family member who was a minister who molested one of our daughters, and we had to have that person defrocked and or however you properly put that, but we had them disciplined. And it was a very contentious time because it was a member of his family and it put us kind of at odds because I was pushing something that was upsetting his family. But at the end of the day, we had to remember that, you know, we're in this together.
Debbie:We made a commitment. And if you're mad at me now in a few days, you'll be over it, hopefully. And if not, we'll deal with it. But just a lot of give and take, and we do get along really well. I mean, we spend a lot of time together.
Debbie:We joke that we spend most of our vacations at General Assembly and Presbyterian, other church meetings, but but we do get along. And, like I say, I appreciate so much that God has given me someone that encourages me to step out and keep going. And I think that's another thing that couples need to remember is that if you married someone and they stayed that way forever before long, you'd be bored with them because and Roy's definitely not bored with me. Some days I'm sure he's like, I wish you were that shy, quiet person who always said yes to anything I wanted to do. But, anyways
T.J.:Well, Hugh and Roy are very active in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and you're at a lot of meetings and and stuff like that. I don't know exactly how to word this question, but so it's gonna come off pretty brash, but how come? What does that mean? Why?
Debbie:Well, we love the CP church, both of us do. And for us, presbytery and general assemblies like big family reunion. Mhmm. I am not a hugger because of the prior abuse and stuff, but I hug a lot of people general assembly because I don't know, it's just it's a different environment. I most of my close friends are in the CP church, or through the CP church.
Debbie:We just enjoy going. We have never I can honestly tell you that we have never in 50 years of marriage taken a vacation that didn't involve one of the kids' sporting activities or church because we just aren't vacationers. And every year, even if he's not a delegate, we go to general assembly because we just love it. We love being with everybody and visiting, and and we enjoy the friendships we've made. We love the church, and we want it to continue.
Debbie:And, one of the sad things, which I'm sure every Presbyterian has been experiencing, is churches that are closing and and people that we looked up to are getting old enough to die, and we're now becoming the elders in the church, but not necessarily session wise, but age wise. But we just love going. It's just a good time, and, our presbytery is awesome. And we have 3 worship services in our weekend of presbytery, and it's a blessing to go and hear the candidates speak and to hear representatives from the denomination come and speak and, serving on presbytery or denominational boards and presbyteryal boards. We've met some of the most awesome people, and, I don't know.
Debbie:There's just it's a family. The CP church is a family. It really is.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Debbie:And I feel sorry for people that don't realize that because it's just a group of people that love each other or shit. And at least we disagree at times, but it should at least same thing in marriage. You may not like each other all the time, but we should still love each other on the when the day is over.
T.J.:So Yeah.
Debbie:But yeah. Roy served on the, ministry council, and he is now on the 4 denominations or nominating committee, permanent nominating committee or whatever they call it. He's gonna have his first meeting here pretty soon with him. But, I don't know. We just consider it an honor to get to do those things.
T.J.:Well, my question was not well rounded, but you answered it great. So thanks for covering for me.
Debbie:No problem.
T.J.:Well, since we're on the church and and you have been part of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church all your life and very active in it, looking into the future, what hopes do you have for we'll start with the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And if you wanna take it off to the church universal, you can. But let let's start with this denomination, this family.
Debbie:Well, I'm really discouraged, that we can't find better ways to pull in people who are not engaged in church. I know the little church in KZ, bless their hearts, they have something every almost they have some activity for the community pretty much every month, and they pay for it and they advertise it, and yet hardly anybody comes. And they just keep plugging along. They just had a love banquet Valentine's weekend and it was a love breakfast early enough that people could come and then go to their own churches, and they cooked for them and all that. And maybe 2 people came that weren't part of the congregation.
Debbie:I don't know what we're missing that we can't seem to get people engaged in coming to church, whether we're 2 CP and we're too stuck in our old ways or stuck in our ruts, or, I don't know, the apathy in the communities towards church, how you address that. But we have a church that we're in the process now in the presbytery of selling the property because the church closed. Like, say, the church up there, they are the sweetest people, and and they are working so hard to grow their church. And they're running about 8 people on Sunday. And and I look at several of our smaller churches and think there are 1 or 2 deaths from closing their doors because they can't seem to get a younger generation involved.
Debbie:And I don't know whether it's the apathy in the world or it's something we as a church aren't doing well. But but you think about all these people living around here who don't go to church on Sunday, and why are we not interesting them? And I think the church as a whole worldwide has experienced it. It's not unique to the CP church by any means.
T.J.:Yeah.
Debbie:All the churches are struggling and and the pandemic was hard on those that were struggling before and put them in a even worse. It's it's real easy. Like I say, I enjoyed the pandemic because I didn't have to go anywhere. And, it's real easy to sit at home in your pajamas and watch church and not not go. And and we have we have our, church services are broadcast live on Facebook, and we have a lot of watchers, but trying to get them back in the building, get them involved.
Debbie:We used to have a Wednesday night program for kids. We had 75 kids there, and now we've disbanded the Wednesday night program because we can't get 1 or 2 to come. And, yeah, I don't know. What what are we doing wrong? I guess that's I need that writing in the sky or that vision in front of me, but I'm not sure.
Debbie:And and this revival has a lot of people excited that are hearing about it, but, you know, at Asbury and the other colleges, but only the truly conservative stations are even putting anything out about it. You don't see it on on the main media outlets, and so I don't know. I'm I'm hoping I know I have a granddaughter. Well, my oldest granddaughter has really struggled with the church because she has a lot of friends who feel like the church is very judgmental and they don't wanna go. And she's, really struggles with, are we and why are we?
Debbie:If we're Christians, why are we so judgmental that young people are afraid to come? And and I think that is the truth in some of the more traditional churches in a way. But in our church, we have people there that we have one guy that brought his alcohol with him because he just could go through a whole hour without having it. And and, you know, he was welcome as much as anybody else. So I don't know why we can't get people to come or get people committed to stay.
Debbie:I mean, I don't know about your church, but our worship attendance is twice what our Sunday school attendance is. So how do we get people engaged and wanting to do more than just come in on Sunday morning? And I think that's a problem all churches are experiencing. But
T.J.:And maybe that's where we are. So my question was, where do you what are your hopes? Where do you see the future of the church?
Debbie:Well, I'd like to see us grow. Well,
T.J.:but there's something interesting. You've I raised a question and you've raised more questions on top of that. Maybe that is the church And clearly, that's where we are. Maybe we are in a discernment period in terms of our identity, not with God, but with the world Right. And how we interact with the world.
T.J.:And so these questions are kind of lingering and hanging in the air, and we need to think through them some because they all require change.
Debbie:Yeah. And change is hard.
T.J.:Yeah. Okay.
Debbie:It's it's really hard. And and it and one of our problems in our presbytery is finding pastors. Probably half our churches don and probably half our churches don't have a c well, more than half of our churches don't have a CP in their pulpit. And it doesn't take very long with a non CP person in the pulpit before the congregation ceases to be CP. And even a lot of our CP congregations don't have the foggiest idea of what CP's believe.
Debbie:I just when I spoke at Casey on denomination Sunday, I explained that Presbyterian is not who we what we believe. It's how we do our government. And people like, oh, really? Nobody knew that. I know, how can you be a CP your whole life and not know what?
Debbie:But but we don't. Our church went through a study of the confession of faith 6 years ago, I think, and probably need to do another one because people just don't have a clue. And and you send, I don't know, how do how do you lead a church when you don't know what that church believes?
T.J.:Yeah.
Debbie:And we're losing a lot of people because they don't have any idea what what Cumberland Presbyterian means, being Cumberland Presbyterian means. And so I don't know. I, like I say, I we try to reach out and do and help and pull people in, and we have a lot of visitors and some of them come back. One person actually complained that they came to visit our church and they would never come back because everybody was too friendly. And I think what they meant was they were overwhelmed
T.J.:Oh, yeah.
Debbie:By people coming up. Oh, you know, who are you? And I'm like, but, and I would be too, because like I say, I'm a real introvert. And so if I went up, I like to slip in the back where nobody sees me. And, But they actually said, I'm not coming back because people were just too friendly.
Debbie:And how do you how do you tell people be less friendly if we have visitors? Okay. I don't know. And and I think some people are just, they didn't grow up in the church. I mean, when I grew up, everybody on our street went to church Mhmm.
Debbie:Somewhere on if they had nothing but a worship service Sunday morning. Now if your kids go to church, they're kinda the odd duck in a lot of ways because families just don't do that. So I don't know how you reach an uncharched generation as You can't do that the same way people reached us when we were kids. You know what I'm saying? Does that make sense?
T.J.:It it does. We're different, and the circumstances are different. Even how we communicate, some levels is different. Yeah. It wasn't that long ago I learned what a party line was.
T.J.:I didn't know what a party line was.
Debbie:Oh, really? Oh, that was fun.
T.J.:And but on that level, how we communicate and interact with each other, it's different than it was
Debbie:Oh, yeah.
T.J.:30 years ago. Well, 10 years ago. It's evolving and changing.
Debbie:Presbytery meeting Saturday when we pay the expenses for our candidates to come to presbytery meeting or board meetings, not presbytery, board meetings. And, one of the candidates was figuring up his mileage because we reimburse their expenses. So he got his phone out in Google Maps from he goes to Bethel, from Bethel to the church and back. And and so I said, oh, Google Maps. We didn't used to have that option.
Debbie:He's like, how did you figure mileage before Google Apps? I said, you wrote down the odometer reading when you left home and then you wrote it down again when you got back and he's like I never would have thought of that. I'm like I know. You know he's just like never even considered you could do that. And, you just they they just think so differently.
Debbie:Yeah. And I don't know. And the boredom level for younger people is their threshold is so low that if you aren't putting on a dog and pony show, they're pretty well bored and stop listening.
T.J.:Yeah. That certainly adds a temptation of changing how you worship to be more attractive and what your activities are. I think congregations have to think long and hard to does that remove your authenticity and a little bit of your identity by doing those things? Can you still be you as an individual and as a group? Again, adding questions to the list.
T.J.:I know. I don't have answers or solutions, But I don't you got me thinking, maybe maybe that's the season that we're in, just the church at large, not just Cumberlands, where maybe we should be raising the questions that we've either ignored we have ignored some of them for a long time.
Debbie:Right.
T.J.:New ones that have cropped up just in the last 2, 3, 4 years, and any other additional questions that come up just in conversation, and just raise them up, for discussion but for prayer as well.
Debbie:Prayer. Yeah. And I think
T.J.:And that may inform Yeah. Future directions and missions as we move forward.
Debbie:You look at how many candidates are going into the ministry, and it's kinda discouraging that, and I know God works as God works. And we talked about that camp about whether kids realize know to recognize a call when they're getting one. If they understand that that's God putting that in their heart that they need to do something. And and I just I don't know. I think we don't pray like people used to be real prayer warriors.
Debbie:And and I'm a terrible prayer warrior, so I'm not criticizing anybody because I have ADHD. And honest to goodness, I start praying, and pretty soon, I'm making my grocery list or I mean, for me to stay focused is so incredibly hard. We sit on the front row, literally, the front pew of the church because if anybody moves, I'm, you know, squirrel. And and I it's so hard for me to focus, and so I have trouble being a prayer warrior, but I know people who are awesome prayer warriors. Mhmm.
Debbie:And so I I don't think we pray for God to speak. And maybe that's part of the lesson we're need to learn is that God's God comes where he's invited and where he's listened to, and maybe we need to be inviting and listening a lot more and making fewer plans. Somebody said one time, when we make plans, are we asking God to bless our plans? Or are we asking God, are these your plans and help us to carry them out? And I think there's a lot of that.
Debbie:I think we do a lot of planning and coming up with ideas, and then we're frustrated when they don't work. We just give up.
T.J.:Well, as a closing question, here lately, I've been asking most of the guests this. Is there books, music, movies that, speak to you, speak to your faith?
Debbie:Music mostly, and probably because I'm a musician, I really, the music. I used to be a reader. I have not read a book, I'm ashamed to say, in prob I've read one book probably in the last year, because, again, I just and I haven't been to the theater in forever, so I do watch I do watch inspirational movies, and I really get a lot out of them. I I don't know. But music mostly, I love worship songs.
Debbie:I love hymns because they're so easy to memorize, and they last forever. I guess that got stuck in my head when my grandmother had dementia, and the last thing she could do was sing hymns from memory. They say music gets ingrained in your brain deeper than anything else. And and mostly music speaks to me, and and I hear God through that. But I am ashamed to say I am a pathetic reader anymore.
Debbie:Part of that is because of what I do for a living. I get up with great plans to do things, and then since I have about 6 jobs, I get up, I read emails, and usually my plans for the day, either a phone call or an email throws my other plans in the trash, and I end up spending the whole day doing one of those things. But I need to be a better reader. I do better. I can listen to, books.
T.J.:Yeah. That's that's what I was gonna say. Well, Debbie, we we can have somebody read a book to you. Sometimes sometimes it's the actual author. I think those are neat.
T.J.:They may not have the best voice, but there's something about having the author of whatever the piece is
Debbie:There you go.
T.J.:Read to you.
Debbie:There you go. I thought one time I would listen to the bible in the car while I was driving, and the guy who was reading it was I mean, it could have been one of those sleep apps, you know, that you can put on your phone because he was so monotone, and I was like, oh, I can't do this. I'm gonna fall asleep while I'm driving. But, I have really enjoyed the redeeming love. I don't know if there's a book.
Debbie:It's called redeeming love, and it's basically a retelling of the book of Hosea in more I wanna say modern. It's not modern. It was back in the pioneer days. And they've made a movie out of it. And I've read the book.
Debbie:I've I've read that book about 10 times, and now it's out in the movie. But it helps me to Hosea is a good book to read, but looking at it in more closer to our time frame that we mess up so badly and God rescues us over and over and over until we finally just say thank you for rescuing me and and and live a life he's pleased with. But, no. I'm I have a lot I've bought. I have a stack of probably 12 books that I bought to read and I've yet to crack the cover of any one of them.
Debbie:So I don't know how much books have influenced me.
T.J.:Well, we could always You need to hire a reader to follow me around.
Debbie:Well, that's what around. Well, that's what I
T.J.:was about to say. I guess you could drive and Roy could
Debbie:be in
T.J.:the passenger seat and just read to you.
Debbie:There you go. We might have to see how that goes. I read a book. The last book I read, honestly, was about a church in, I wanna say, Mississippi maybe, that made the commitment to take on every child in the foster care system in their county. Mhmm.
Debbie:And their struggle with these kids and their blessings from these kids, and I can't you the name of the book right now, but, but I sat and read it straight through because it was just so intriguing, the the issues they had and, you know, families taking on 6 kids in addition to their own or whatever. But they took every kid that was in the foster sometimes, lives and changed the future through these kids' lives. And sometimes a kid would not fit in well with one of the homes in the church, so they just put them in a different home and find the home they fit into. And and it it was an incredible story. It's a true story, and I thought how much courage would that take?
Debbie:And it was a little country church. Mhmm. So families every family in there took on multiple children, and I thought, just imagine. We have at one time, we had 2 families in our church that were fostering, and they were the only 2 families in the whole county that were fostering children. And so here's all these kids needing a place to go and don't have.
Debbie:And our pastor and his wife just took on 4 foster children. Actually, I babysat them Saturday, and we had a blast. But But that's the way to change the future is to change the now for these kids. And so reading that book, which was over a span of time, and he told how troubled these kids were and how they what they're doing now, it is just so inspiring. And I asked Roy when our youngest was ready to go to college because we had our oldest one a little over a year after we got married, so we didn't have a lot of time with just the 2 of us.
Debbie:And when our youngest one was getting ready to head to college, I said, do you wanna foster kids or something? I can't imagine having not having kids in the house, and we're always like, I can, and I'm looking forward to it. So and so, but I don't know, I have such a heart for kids that are struggling and I don't, like I said, I get along better with the teenage group. But that is the last book I read, and I was glad I read it. And, it really impacted me on even the kids that I work with at camp in a way.
Debbie:One of them told me, I hope you know that that you're I consider you my mom. She actually has me on Facebook as her mom. So even though I haven't legally fostered any kids, I guess I've fostered a lot of kids over the years, but that was the last book I read, and it did impress me and and influence my faith in that way. But maybe if I get Roy to read those other 12 to me while we're on the road, I'll learn more.
T.J.:It'd be great to pull in a parking lot somewhere, wherever we cross paths, and I look over, and there's Roy with an open book in the passenger seat.
Debbie:Yes. Reading to me. Yes. That would be good. Well, I'll ask him about that when he gets home.
T.J.:And we don't know each other very well, but he he's gonna be upset. It's gonna be like he volunteered me to read. I don't wanna read.
Debbie:No. He would just laugh it off and go, if TJ wants books read to you, he can just read them to you himself.
T.J.:Oh, there you go. Debbie, thank you for sharing your faith journey. Thank you for giving me your afternoon.
Debbie:You're welcome. Thank you for inviting me.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to The Cumberland Road. To get faith journeys like Debbie's for others to hear, you can support this podcast by subscribing, following, and sharing with others. There are over 125 episodes for you to enjoy and more to come. In closing, for those who are suffering, experiencing pain, and no trauma, I share these words and hope that they bring you comfort and healing. Jesus says, come to me, all who are weary and all who are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest.
