Denise Adams - Loss, Grief, Healing, And A Calling Into Ministry
You are listening to the Cumberland Road podcast, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. Denise Adams is my guest, a candidate for ministry in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Our conversation includes searching and loss and grief, healing and practicing, and easing into new things as time and circumstances allow. Denise has a beautiful faith journey, as all are, and I hope you find encouragement in my conversation with Denise Adams.
T.J.:Okay. Denise, hello, and welcome to the Cumberland Road podcast.
Denise:Thank you. It's good to be here. TJ, it's, I've listened to so many of them, and I've enjoyed every one of them. And so I'm glad to be a part of this.
T.J.:It's an honor. It's a privilege. And I'm excited to have you on here because you've started a new life journey, and I wanted to pick your brain on it. But I thought maybe we could ease into this. Denise, what are you reading right now?
Denise:Well, everything I'm reading right now is for school. I started seminary in January. And so I've I've been out of school since 1989. That was I received my bachelor's degree in excuse me, in 98. So it's been a while since I've been in the classroom.
T.J.:I like that you made yourself 10 years younger. 89, nope, 98.
Denise:88. And that was as a non traditional student then. I was older when I was going to college. As a matter of fact, my son Joshua was on campus. My my final semester.
Denise:Joshua was a freshman. So we shared college at the same time.
T.J.:Oh, wow. Now what is that like?
Denise:That was very interesting. That it was wonderful that every now and then, I would be walking down the hall when all of a sudden, somebody would come up behind me and hug me, and it was my son. Wow. I I like that.
T.J.:Did you exchange notes?
Denise:No. We took different courses. Not really we didn't take the same path in in college so he he did help me. He was a big help when I started taking college algebra because I had been out of high school for so long. So it was it was nice having him there.
Denise:He was he was helpful in the beginning, in the first couple few courses.
T.J.:So what is the, dynamics like on that? Is it a little bit harder as a parent to encourage and have account academic accountability for your your child? Because you're in the school, you're attending college at the same time. Did you compare grades?
Denise:He is probably smarter than I am, but I was a better student than he was. Okay. I got better grades.
T.J.:Okay. We were talking about your, your education
Denise:Oh, yes. And what
T.J.:you're doing now. Yeah.
Denise:So, I'm at Memphis Theological Seminary. I accepted the call to ministry, for at least the second time about a year ago and I was accepted and not as candidate for the ministry at presbytery this March and I actually started seminary before that. So just getting started on it. And so most of my most of the things I've been reading lately have been on pastoral leadership and, theology. I'm also this summer I'm doing a lot of reading free reading so that when I take 3 courses this fall, I will have some of my Cumberland Presbyterian history and doctrine already in my brain.
Denise:So that's what I've been reading lately.
T.J.:Alright. Anything stand out to you in particular that you've enjoyed or that you would like to forget?
Denise:Nothing that I like to forget because even if I don't agree with it, I like to know it. I like to know that some of those ideas are out there. So some of the things I've really enjoyed, again, some of the history, some of the theology that I haven't been introduced to in the past and so that's very very interesting to me and I want to learn more and more about that.
T.J.:So being introduced to new ideas is, not necessarily earth shaking, but more welcomed in terms of just kinda opening up your eyes to to the world and different possibilities and different perspectives.
Denise:Yes. Absolutely.
T.J.:You had said, and I'm interesting to dive deeper on this, you had said a few minutes ago, the second time to answer the call to ministry. So let's talk about maybe what was the first time what happened?
Denise:I accepted Christ when I was 12. I was not raised in the church. My parents didn't take me to church. But my grandparents when we would visit my grandparents occasionally then I would go to church. And I've all I I just felt a connection there.
Denise:And when when I was 12, I accepted my call to salvation. My grandparents had given me a bible for Christmas and I started reading it. I was very hungry for the word. I started reading that so at at age 12 I accepted Christ and I I asked my mother to take me to church and she did. When I was about 13 and this comes back to that, when I was about 13 sitting in a classroom and I changed schools about that time, my social studies teacher had asked each one of us what do you want to be when you grow up?
Denise:And when it came to me I said a missionary and I just burst into tears. I had never considered the fact that I could be a preacher. I was in a denomination that did not accept women in the ministry. So the so that just never crossed my mind, but I knew women could be missionaries in that church. So I actually think I felt that call I I consider that feeling that call when I was probably 13 years old.
Denise:That, put that on hold and, you know, of course life takes over. Michael Qualls was one of the people that that I I started going to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and Michael Qualls was the pastor there. He got me in involved in youth group and, as an adult leading youth group. And he got me involved in church camp. And through church camp, I think I was in my 30s, about mid 30s when God called me to preach.
Denise:And, my husband who's a wonderful man, he loved me terribly and he would have done anything in the world for me, was not very excited about the fact that that I was going to go into the ministry. He said, Denace, you may be called to be a preacher, but I don't feel called to be a preacher's husband. So I had to put things on hold for a while and I prayed that God would change Kenny's heart. And I said, God, when you're ready for me and Kenny is ready for me to go into the ministry, I'm ready. So they just you know, all you have to do is change Kenny's heart.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Denise:That did not happen, but my husband passed away almost 2 years ago now. And since I am now single and financially able to, and I'm at a place in my life where, I'm able to go to seminary and focus on that kind of thing. God really started talking to me again about preaching and becoming a minister and so I was able to go back to my presbytery and say okay I'm called to ministry again still and I'm ready to do something about it.
T.J.:Denise, what is it like if you could put it into words to be able to have a call early in life and revisit it in adult hood and then to revisit it again. What is that like? Is it is it a burden? Is it is it something as easy to take off as, you know, like a jacket? Is it always lingering in the front of your mind, the back of your mind?
T.J.:What was it like for you?
Denise:It was always there. I've I've always, you know, since from the time I was very young, I felt called to do God's work. And part of that was that that hunger was fulfilled or was filled in a way that I was working at church camp, I was working through my local church, I was the youth leader and so some things took the place of that temporarily and then I've been a church secretary for 20 years. I I worked for the Presbyterian Church USA for 6 years and I've been working with the Catholic church for 14 years as a secretary. And then I've been very active in the denomination, I've served on a couple of the boards, the ministry teams, and I've been active in presbytery and things like that.
Denise:So there were things along the way that were taking the place of I don't know, I guess filling the void that I felt, they were filling the void.
T.J.:Right.
Denise:But they never quite satisfied the call.
T.J.:Yeah.
Denise:And so I'm very excited to be able to step into this new role. And I think every place that God put me in the past has been in preparation for what's to come. I've learned so much and God has shown me just, ways to do what I need to do and just it's it's been it's all been preparation. Yeah.
T.J.:I would think so. You've had a good chunk of years to be able to observe and practice and explore your gifts and your strengths, identify your weaknesses along the way that, maybe someone who was younger and answered the call to the ministry of the word and the sacraments, you would just kind of, it's another path.
Denise:Right.
T.J.:It's not any better or any worse. It's just another path.
Denise:I've had a chance to mature. And and that's not just an age. I've had I've had a chance to to mature in my theology and in my social outlook, you know, culturally. So a lot of a lot of this time has just been, well, again, preparation for for what's to come. And I think that when I when I actually become ordained and I'm able to fill a pulpit, I think that it will really really enhance my ministry.
Denise:I think it will help protect my ministry as well because I've seen some things happening in my church and other churches, and other denominations that helped me to be a more mature person and I think it will help me to be a better pastor.
T.J.:Yeah. You have, because of your experience and the preparation, you've always been preparing for answering the call to ministry. You have a perspective that, is pretty broad in terms of life experiences, work, and service, to or with another denomination, that all these different things that you can bring to the table. And in your son, you have a son who is ordained in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church that also provides, a perspective and insight that others may not have. So in a way, you've had all these opportunities of not to answer the call to ministry with all the knowledge and experience that you have, and yet here is that internal call living itself outward, which is great.
Denise:Yes. I I know where all the I know where a lot of the pitfalls are, a lot of the stumbling blocks may be, and I'm going in it with into this with my eyes wide open and still feel like this is where I'm supposed to be. And my son is Joshua Murray. For some some some of our listeners will know Joshua Murray, he's a he's a graduate of Memphis Theological Seminary as well.
T.J.:And again, in a roundabout way, the 2 of you can exchange notes in terms of class and
Denise:Yes.
T.J.:School work and
Denise:I just shared with, TJ that I've I've helped move some of my son's stuff from Tampa to Pensacola recently. Some of those things were books, and I got to bring some of those books home. He's saving me quite a bit of money this semester on Cumberland Presbyterian history and quality books.
T.J.:And and you like, as you mentioned earlier, you're getting the jump by reading ahead.
Denise:Yes. I'm trying to read some of those this summer.
T.J.:What what is it like to be a candidate for the ministry in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church? I mean, you you are fresh on your journey in terms of, the congregation recognizing your gifts and now the Committee on the Ministry and Arkansas Presbyterian recognizing your gifts. And you're beginning the educational part. So what is what is that experience like? How's that been for you this first, 4 or 5 months into school year and reentering into the academic world.
Denise:The technology part of MTS has been or you know just school in general I think right now, it's a big change. Even more so than when I started college the first time. I I did take 3 semesters in in the early eighties. The computer at UAM was a building. It was it took up the entire floor of the building, and I took one computer course and failed that.
Denise:So but it was a data processing IBM punch card kind of computer at that time. So I'm dating myself terribly at this point.
T.J.:Yeah. You should have stopped with, earlier when you were going in 1998, and then everybody we could just go, oh, you know, starting out.
Denise:So when I went when I was doing my undergraduate work in the nineties, I graduated in 98. So I I learned a lot about computers, and so I think, okay. Yeah. And I work with computers every day at work. I'm a secretary, you know, I type and all this.
Denise:I get on the Internet. I'm doing Facebook. But the technology from just starting seminary, the different programs that I'm having to learn, so many different passwords, so many different things you have to sign into, That was complicated and so the 1st few weeks, the technology part was probably the hardest part. Then I was able to kind of just get into the groove of reading so much and writing so much. So, I think I've kind of hit a good point there where I've learned the technology that I have to know for this enough that that the classes are going pretty well.
Denise:I I enjoyed it. I made 2 a's. I went to 2 classes, but I made 2 a's. And so that's not too bad for the first time in all that those years. And I'm taking 3 courses in the fall, and I'm really looking forward to that.
T.J.:That's that's great. Alright. I have another question for you. And this comes from the constitution of the, Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And it's talking about the office of the of the word in the sacrament.
T.J.:And it has, like, different different roles and various duties, different titles found in the scriptures pertaining to the office of ministry. And one that we're most common with is, and that we use most often is the first one, which is pastor. So pastor, minister, elder or presbyter, evangelist, prophet, priest, preacher, and teacher. Out of these different duties and titles for the office of ministry, which one do you feel today that resonates with you the most? And you're not held to the answer that you give today, you know, 3 years from now or 2 years from now when you finish your education.
T.J.:But just for now, which one of those that you feel like that you connect with the most? Because I would imagine it's quite possible the answer that you give now may be different later.
Denise:Yes. Probably very much different. I've I have learned that callings change because I I felt very called to youth ministry. As I've aged out of that, not knowing the I don't know their music, I don't know. You know, the with when you're working with the youth, you need to be able to be, to understand the the movies they watch, the games they play.
Denise:I've aged out of that. It was time I'm older I'm older than most of their grandparents. It was time to go. And so my calling definitely changed. And I I don't doubt that as I grow as a minister or a pastor that that will also change at different points.
Denise:But, definitely I feel like I'm supposed to be preaching. I think that's a part of it. And I really feel called right now to rule Possibly as interim pastors, as an interim pastor at different churches. I've always felt like a teacher that that it was my responsibility to to teach the scripture, to teach the history. Where does the scripture come from?
Denise:You know, why why is this in the bible? What's the history that was going on in the world at that time. And so when I preach, most of the time I bring that kind of teaching into it as well. And I've always enjoyed doing bible studies so I can see myself doing that. I have been an elder, I'm not active at the moment but I, have served in different positions throughout, like I said, the denomination, the presbytery, and in my local church.
Denise:So being an elder was was a calling at one point and and again, that's it what it didn't. It it wasn't my only calling at that time, but it's certainly a calling, and I don't feel called to that right now. And probably because I'm moving on, you know, and that doesn't mean it's I'm moving to something better but it's just something different. I don't mean to say that that being a pastor is anyway superior to, but as the gifts are, my my gifts are changing and my ministry is changing, so my calling is changing.
T.J.:Yeah. Well put. The roles and responsibilities within the community of faith are different because the needs are different and so so are the gifts that we have individually and corporately. They're they're different as well. So, yeah, the role just because the roles and the duties are different, doesn't mean that the offices and the gifts that people bring are better than the other?
Denise:Right. We're stewards of all of our gifts and we need to respect the gifts of everyone else. And I definitely do I I definitely respect the fact that that some people are called to something different than I'm called to, but I also feel strongly that that right now this is what I'm being called to do.
T.J.:The question that I asked you is is one that I asked myself. Usually towards the end of the year, I'll go and I'll look at that part of the constitution and I'll read the the various duties plus their description. And I'll look to see how that year or that previous year, which one of those that I felt that I, was more emphasized by my actions and activities in service to the church. And the answer at times have changed. Maybe some were more of an emphasis than than the others.
T.J.:This is kind of a for me, I've sort of used it as a self assessment.
Denise:I like that.
T.J.:Yeah. And and it's not a definitive thing. That's the beauty of it is not you're not it's not either an evangelist or a prophet. It's not that you're just a teacher or a pastor. All of these are all encompassing in terms of the various duties and responsibilities.
T.J.:But I think it's appropriate for us to kinda take a look at that and go, okay, this past year or maybe the year moving forward, which which of these resonates more as I live out the calling and the mission and the ministry that as I understand it.
Denise:Alright. Right. I like that idea.
T.J.:I just didn't tell you that at the beginning because I wanted you to have a free answer to it. Denise, you've had some tremendous life changes in in in experiences here in the last couple years. Do you want to talk about some of those, how it's impacted you, and and where have you seen or experienced the presence of God in some of the things that have been happening in your life recently?
Denise:So my husband found out and we found out on May 1, 2020 that Kenny had cancer. He has he had bile duct cancer which was where the bile duct goes into the liver. When we found out, they told us that he would probably only have a year to live or less. It's a rare cancer. We live in South Arkansas and they suggested because of the rarity of this cancer that we go to Houston, to MD Anderson for treatment.
Denise:And we did and he did do some of the treatment in Little Rock, which is about 2 hours away and in Houston, which is about 9 hours away. So we were going back and forth, and so it was, a difficult year as far as that kind of thing, a couple of years. Well so they gave us they they gave him a year. God gave us a bonus year. We were able to Kenny Kenny felt good for 2 years.
Denise:He he was somewhat tired because of the chemo, but they couldn't they couldn't do anything, like liver transplant or anything like that. They couldn't remove it because the tumor was about the size of a grapefruit in inside the liver and it and then he had another tumor that was also in a different lobe. So, anyway, he was not able to have surgery to remove it. Amazingly, Kenny did not get sick because of the chemo. He he handled it very well.
Denise:We were able to enjoy those 2 years of of traveling back and forth. We would go to restaurants and Kenny could eat well. He he didn't have any problem with that most of the time. We went to zoos and museums and just when we would go to to Houston, we would find something to do and so we enjoyed those trips as much as possible. He really felt good most of that time so he could enjoy them.
Denise:It wasn't just me enjoying them. And we took that time to actually enjoy one another's company too. It forced us to leave town. He he had a business that he did eventually sell, but he was able to to take time off work and we just did some things that that we enjoy while while we were going through this process. That time was very special to us.
Denise:So we felt very blessed to have that time of preparation. Kenny had 2 good years, 2 rocky months, and one really bad week before he passed away. He was in the hospital for 1 that last week. He he was in the hospital the whole time. Most of that time, he didn't know where he was.
Denise:He didn't know who he was. He he was he was just completely out of it because ammonia build up and it was building up in his body and therefore in his brain. So even that last week, I don't think he knew very much about what was going on around him. So God protected him and protected me. And throughout that whole process, we saw God in so many places.
Denise:When we found out that Kenny had cancer, we owned 26 or 28 rent properties and a paint store. I know nothing about the paint store. I knew very little about the rent properties because that was just Kenny's part. I'm a church secretary, and Kenny was taking care of those. And so when Kenny found out, the day he found out, he said, Denise, I know where I'm going.
Denise:I know I'm gonna be okay. I don't wanna leave you with a mess. So in those 2 years that we had to prepare, he was able to sell the paint store and all except one of the rent properties. And I we thought we had that one sold, but it just fell through. So he didn't leave me with the mess.
Denise:When he passed away, he knew he had taken care of me financially. He knew he had taken care of me that I didn't have to deal with all of the all of the renters and the problems that come with rent property. And, so God blessed us with that. Kenny died knowing he had taken care of me. He had a clear conscience.
Denise:Yeah. And and, we had had an opportunity to take care of our wills, our powers of attorney, our funerals, and so every everything just fell into place and God was there in every every step of the way. God was with us, and we felt God's presence. We had a wonderful church family that wrapped their arms around us and and took care of us. That that last week when Kenny was in the hospital, and again, not knowing much of what was going on.
Denise:In the mid mid week, our church family came and because of COVID, they couldn't come into the hospital, but they came to the window and they tapped on the window and they had these signs that said, Kenny, we love you. Denise, we love you. I hope you're feeling better soon and, you know, things like that. And so we had this wonderful group of friends that came. That was one of the few times that Kenny actually knew anything in that full week.
Denise:When they came to the window, they and tapped on the window, I said, Kenny, look. And he looked up and he said, I love those folks. And it was so touching that he had that moment of clarity and he had so few moments of clarity that whole week, but he knew them and he and he loved them and he smiled. Again, God just took care of us in every step of that. And that was a way of taking care of our friends too because that's their last time they saw him.
Denise:You know, that was the last time they were able to seek him. The week about a month or so before Kenny before we found out about Kenny's cancer, AT and T had sent us a message saying that they were interested in putting a cell tower on my property on our property. And so we have been thinking about that. Throughout the 2 years, they contacted us a couple more times, and they said, yes. We definitely wanna put it on your property.
Denise:Is that okay? And so we signed the contract, and and they said the as soon as we break ground, you'll we'll start giving you your rent, which is $600 a month. Pretty significant for an empty lot, you know, an otherwise empty lot. And the day of Kenny's funeral, I was pulling out of my driveway to go to the church for his funeral. And there was a white truck on the property where they were going to put the cell tower.
Denise:So I stopped and I asked them. I said, are y'all breaking ground today? And he said, yes. So the day of Kenny's funeral, I started getting rent on that property. Just another way that God is taking care of me and Kenny took care of me.
Denise:You know, just every step of that way, God was in that process. And I could tell I I could go on for days talking about that, but those are some of the ways that we felt God's presence, that I felt God's presence. And I was not happy about being alone. I was worried about how am I gonna handle living alone as a widow. What am I gonna do?
Denise:God has given me such peace about it, and it's a peace that is not human. I cannot take credit for it. I don't know why I feel at peace except that it's God's peace. God has given has granted that to me, and I've been able to handle this better than I ever expected and better than any of my family or friends expected. And but it's not me, you know, I I can't say it's me, it's God.
T.J.:Denise, thank you for sharing. If you had the opportunity to to speak with another person or a couple that has a loved one who has a terminal diagnosis, what advice, what wisdom would you share with them? And the other half of this question is, what advice, what wisdom would you share with someone who has just recently lost someone close
Denise:to them? The first thing is accept the help. People want to help. People offer. I don't know how many times someone slipped $40 or $50 in my hand and said this is for gas money because they knew we were traveling so much to get the care that Kenny needed.
Denise:Accept the help. Financial help, spiritual help, friendship. If someone says, I'll take your friend, your loved one to the hospital if you want me to for this treatment, Accept it sometimes. You need a break, and people want to do that. So that was one thing.
Denise:I was able to turn to my friends and and they helped me when they could and I wasn't afraid to say yes. Yeah. Let I'll I'll let you do this for me. That meant a lot. Also, don't wait don't wait to make your final plans.
Denise:Don't wait until you've got a terminal diagnosis or that your family member does. Do it now. Make sure that people in your life know the plans that you want for your funeral, for your end of life, that kind of thing. We we went immediately and took care of the wills and things like that. That that was just a sense of relief.
Denise:Every step of that was like, okay. That's one less thing to worry about. You know, it's like, now I can focus on Kenny. Now we can do this. Now we don't have to deal with that.
Denise:And planning the funeral was actually a really I'm trying to think of the word. It was a fulfilling process to be able to sit down. The funeral home gave us a little booklet that said, you know, like, all the obituary questions that they asked. But then there were questions on on in that little pamphlet about what was your favorite vacation? What were some of the things you enjoy doing with your family?
Denise:What were your hobbies? And so we sat down together and prepared all that. And and just talking about some of those things was very comforting, and and we we did it at a time that that it meant a lot to both of us to to look back at our lives and be able to say, wow. God has been great to us and we have a lot to be thankful for. We've been so blessed and and so do that before it's too late.
Denise:And and we never know. We don't know if we're gonna have time. When my dad passed away, he went to work one day and had a massive heart attack. And there was no preparation for any of us. And he had no plans.
Denise:And it was so you're dealing with the grief and you're having to deal with details that you shouldn't have to deal with at that time. So take care of those now so that someone else doesn't have to do it for you.
T.J.:And for those who have recently experienced a loss, what words of advice would you give to them from a faith perspective? You know, as a Christian, what what would you share? Because Christians and Judeo Christian combined, I think, look at death differently and maybe religions as a whole look at death differently than maybe someone who is not connected to the faith? So what what would you share with someone in terms of comfort, but also maybe understanding?
Denise:Well, I don't know how anyone goes through something like this without faith. I just don't I don't understand how you get through it because we could lean on God. We could pray about it and we could see those prayers being answered. We would we would pray specifically and those prayers will be answered specifically exactly the way we were asking about. So don't be afraid to pray for specifics but we leaned on God so much, and I and I'm still leaning on God so much.
Denise:I also have to say, be a part of a faith community. There's so many people out there that don't have the support of family and they don't have the support of a faith family, and that faith family has just been amazing. So make sure and this one does things too. Do that now. Don't wait.
Denise:Do that now so that you've got those relationships, so that you're encouraging other people and and in turn, they can encourage you. That's part of it. Ask me again that question because I want to there there's part of it that I don't remember now since I've started talking.
T.J.:Well, I don't know if I remember all of it. What what advice, what encouragement would you give to someone who has recently experienced death with a loved one or friend, a family member, and how does the Christian faith speak to to that time of loss? And and where would you point people for comfort? Denise, that may be, like, 8 questions.
Denise:So That that's good. Well, I I think I wanna go to the grief to to grief. Because the grief that I dealt with with my dad who, like I said, was a sudden a sudden death was so different than the grief I've been dealing with with loss of my husband. And I think a lot of that has to do has to do with the fact that with my dad's death, while it was it was so traumatic, for us, for my family, we had never gone through the grieving process. He was the first person really close to us as a family that had had passed away, and I didn't know what to expect out of the grief.
Denise:You know, the world expects you're off work for a week or 2, you go back, everything's supposed to be normal. And so I was able to learn with daddy's grief that 3 or 4 or 5 years down the road, I was still I thought I was going crazy because I was still so absorbed in the grief. And I had to give myself permission to grieve. I finally decided oh I found out that this is normal. That you don't you don't get over a death quickly.
Denise:That it can take years to process that grief the way you need to deal with it. So with Kenny's death, I went into it knowing that this is gonna be a long process. It's something you never get over. You just live with the grief as you go forward. And so being able to take that grief with me and knowing that that's part of what to expect has made it so much easier to go through Kenny's death.
Denise:So I guess that's probably the advice I would give or, you know, the that's what I try to tell people is, like, it's not that you're gonna get through it. It's not that you're gonna get over it. You just it you take it with you as you go.
T.J.:Yeah. I like what you said and that give it that permission giving of recognizing it and that it's a part of you. Mhmm. And it's okay that grief is a part of you. Yeah.
T.J.:Instead of trying to bury it or hide it or push it away. It it's a part of you and it will be
Denise:Forever.
T.J.:Perhaps indefinitely. Yeah.
Denise:And that's okay. I'm I'm okay with the fact that I may be grieving even this hard. I mean, you know, just as hard as it is now. I may be breathing that hard in 20 years because I loved Kenny. I will always miss Kenny And I wanna miss him, you know, it's okay for me to miss him.
T.J.:Yeah.
Denise:It shows how much it shows how much love we have and I don't wanna I don't wanna lose that love. I don't wanna forget about that love, so I'm okay with creeping with that. Keeping it with me.
T.J.:Thank you for being very raw and vulnerable and sharing. And your words have been helpful to me and hopefully to others as well.
Denise:Oh, I hope so.
T.J.:I sometimes ask the guest about, what are we doing? What are you doing to keep healthy? And that's mentally and spiritually and physically. So coupled with what we've been talking about, but also I think as a student as well, regardless if it's graduate school or undergraduate school, Denise, what are you doing to keep healthy mentally, spiritually, and physically in your preparation for ordained ministry?
Denise:I've been a journaler for a long time. I love to keep a journal and so my thoughts, my feelings, my prayers, the good times, the bad times, I journal a lot. And so that's one of the ways I stay spiritually healthy. And I like going back and reading some of those and seeing I have them from many years back. And so if I flip through there, I can say, Oh, I forgot about that, because I have a terrible memory.
Denise:I forgot about that and look how God took me through that, you know. And so that's been wonderful to me, to go back and and look at the journals.
T.J.:Do you so you it's pen to paper?
Denise:Yes. Absolutely.
T.J.:Do you do you carry it with you or do you do you pick a certain time of the day when to to journal? What does that look like?
Denise:A lot of times I journal at night. I usually just keep it by my bedside, and and I don't do it every day. There there are times in my life when I do it daily, but especially especially with seminary, I had little time to do that. So, I just do it whenever something strikes me. And so keeping up with that.
T.J.:Is it is it events? Is it just a collection of thoughts? Is it problem solving?
Denise:Probably problem solving is part of it. But I I write I write about all kinds of things. My chickens. I have I have right now, I have 2 chickens, 2 hens. I may journal about them or my cats, or, you know, whatever.
Denise:And and then sometimes it's about life events and just the things that I've enjoyed or have saying god bless bless my life or someone else's and so just all kinds of things. I journal about everything.
T.J.:Okay. Alright.
Denise:I also travel. I enjoy traveling and that's part of my journey, I think, is to enjoy God's creation in any way that I can. I I'm not very physically fit. I I occasionally walk, you know, I take that in spells too, but I walk in the neighborhood sometimes, but I'm not very physical. Never I've never been much in way of exercising, unfortunately.
Denise:I need to, but that Well,
T.J.:I like that though. The journaling aspect and the travel, both of those both of those are are healthy practices, I think, to avoid avoid any type of burnout.
Denise:Yes. Yes. And and some of the journal some of the travel that we do that I I do is with friends, church friends. Our church group, we have a group of 10 people or so that go out to eat almost every Sunday after worship service. So that's part of that that's part of that too.
Denise:I enjoy going out with them and then we'll talk about church sometimes. Mostly we talk about life and that's that helps me tremendously to keep from burning out and and helps me spiritually, mentally.
T.J.:Denise, what ministry are you a part of now? I know you're just beginning your seminary path, but, if you were to bump into an old friend or somebody there in town, hadn't seen me in a while and they said, hey, what are you up to? How would you describe to to that person what you're up to and what what ministry you're a part of?
Denise:When we found out that Kenny had cancer and we were going to be going through all of the treatments and everything, I backed out of a lot of things because we absolutely knew we were not gonna have time to do a lot of things around around our spiritual lives and our well, besides praying and that. But in the church, the ministries, I gave up doing the bulletins from my church. I gave up being on the session. I gave up for a little while doing the I I we did not do. I didn't do church camp for a little while.
Denise:But those are some of the things that I'm wanting to incorporate back into my life. And then I decide, you know, okay, it's time to go to seminary. So I have so so when they asked me if I would go back on the session, I was like, no, I don't think I can do that right now. So a lot of things are still on hold because of seminary, and I think I've got to wait and see how things go because of that, you know,
T.J.:I have
Denise:to wait because of seminary. It's challenging time wise and emotionally. So
T.J.:Alright. You wear multiple lenses when looking at the church. Mhmm. You have been a layperson. You have been and are an elder, and now you're a candidate for ministry and you are a parent of someone who is ordained to the ministry of the word and the sacraments.
T.J.:So you have wonderful insight and perspective. What are some of the great things that we as a church are getting and nailing and just the best at in the universe? And what is the church? What are we missing? Or where is our room for improvement?
Denise:I'll start with that, the room for improvement. I think we have to pay our pastors better than most of our churches are doing right now. I think we have to support our ministers especially single ministers and women ministers because I think those people kind of set churches kind of say, oh, we have to pay a man, a family man this much, but we can kinda get by with not paying a woman as much or we can get by with without paying a sick, you know, paying a single person less because they don't need as much, but that's not true. I mean, it takes a lot to live nowadays. And so I think the salaries are one issue.
Denise:I think we don't have enough young people who are coming into the ministry. Our church lacks a youthful presence in the pastorate.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Denise:And I don't know what we have to do to do. I I don't have an answer for that. But I think somehow we have to focus more on helping young people answer the call as a young person. You know, when when they're young enough to focus their attention and get started in the ministry younger. But but and that but we also need people who are middle aged, We have a lot of elderly people now in in the pastorate, but those but they have a place as well, you know.
Denise:But we definitely need to work on I think some for some reason, we are not getting young people to answer their call. Mhmm. So we have to find ways to do that.
T.J.:Providing opportunities for young people to to struggle, grapple with, a calling to ministry as a vocation.
Denise:Yes.
T.J.:K. What's the church doing well?
Denise:Maybe going back to youth again, there are I I love the fact that we are connected with the Presbyterian Church and some other churches that are doing things like Presbyterian Youth Triennium. I love the fact that we are still doing children's fest and the Congolent Presbyterian Youth Conference, you know, CPYC. And I do see some some places where there there are the young young adult retreats and mission trips and things like that. I think we're doing those kind of things well. We're still we are trying to get young people involved and and I see that.
Denise:I also think that we as a denomination because we're small and we as churches, individual churches because most of our churches are small have to step out of just being Cumberland Presbyterian and being in a larger body of the church. So that if there's a if there's a program that another church in town is doing, we can step in and say, let's be a part of that. We don't have to reinvent the wheel, but we can help in this project or in this organization and we can make a big difference in our community along with what's already been established.
T.J.:Yeah. The togetherness of, shared communities of faith to accomplish one mission, or multiple missions or ministries.
Denise:Yes.
T.J.:Yeah. And I see that I see that through youth evangelism conference. Mhmm. I've seen that also in areas where maybe a shared this is more or inward centered, but community vacation Bible schools where you can pull on on the various skills and volunteers and curriculum. Yes.
T.J.:Pulling together food pantries and clothing I mean, we're doing it already, but to do that and more would really open up some doors up for effective change.
Denise:Yes. We we as, wrote at Rosehill Cumberland Presbyterian, we've done Vacation Bible School with the Associate Reformed Presbyterian and the Presbyterian Church USA for years. And that just meant so so each church might have 2 or 3 or 5 youth. But when we brought them together, we had enough to make an impact on those young people because we pulled our resources and we pulled our children. There was enough there there were enough children there to play the games and, you know, things like that.
Denise:And so I think that's one of the things that my local church has done, but I also see that in some of the other churches where where we're we're more community focused. We're we're saying, it's okay if you're not Cumberland Presbyterian. We can still work with you.
T.J.:Okay.
Denise:The ecumenical stuff.
T.J.:Yeah. Denise, if you could ask God one thing and you knew that you would get an answer, what would it be?
Denise:That's a really hard question for me because I do ask a lot of questions. Sometimes I get answers, sometimes I don't, and that's okay. I'm I'm I'm okay either way. I I guess I just cannot think of one question that I I I really can't think of a question.
T.J.:Oh, that's alright. My questions are like yours. They vary from day to day. Some of them are superficial. Yeah.
T.J.:And then some of them are really deep that maybe there is no answer. But, yeah. I don't mind. I just like asking that, and it's okay not to have an answer. Sometimes the questions to God are very private as well.
T.J.:They're only between God and I.
Denise:I see in some denominations where people want all of the answers, and they think they or, you know, they think they have all the answers. And I'm open enough to say, I'm okay without all the answers. I'm okay with with questions that that don't have a finite answer to them.
T.J.:Right. Well, many years ago, you and I had a conversation and you skilled me on bargain hunting and yard sales and auction sales. And I've taken some of those, tips along with me. I thought we might end on a on a lighter note for our our conversation on the Cumberland Road. I just wanted to tell you thank you for sharing your your bargain secrets.
T.J.:That was a shared interest that you and Kenny held for for years. And Yes. And, I have benefited from from your you and Kenny and you you guys, shopping together and hunting together.
Denise:And that is one of the things we did that we enjoyed so much. We enjoyed going to yard sales. He he was more of a yard seller than I was. He would get up at 6 o'clock on Saturday mornings or earlier. He would be out there.
Denise:Sometimes the yard sale that would be too dark to actually see what was on the tables. He would have to keep his truck lights on. And, so he was really the bargain hunter. I waited until later, and I was the one that got things at half price because people just wanted to get rid of it by the time I got up and out. So Kenny got the really good stuff, and I got the better bargains probably.
T.J.:Well, which is more important?
Denise:It's according to what you need. And he he would sell things too. A lot of times, Kenny would get up on a Saturday morning, then he would go to work. They were he worked until noon. And so he would go to work at at 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock or whatever because he has somebody else working there.
Denise:So he would do all the yard selling and before he would get home at noon, he would have a lot of the stuff already sold. People knew he was doing the bargain hunting, and they would come by the paint store to get bargains. And it maybe guns, it maybe, tools, it could be hunting clothes. And so before he came home at noon and I saw him, most of that stuff would be gone. And I thought that was always very interesting.
Denise:He he knew who wanted, and and if you say, Kenny, I'm looking for so and so. He said, okay. I'll try to find one for you. And he almost always found it for for whoever was looking. I have a terrible memory.
Denise:I don't remember who told me what. I'll say, oh, somebody wanted this, and then I can't remember who it was supposed to go to.
T.J.:I think those are great places to to build relationships as well in terms of trust and and being able to share our faith in in natural ways, even if your eyes are down at a table, then you might not be making direct eye contact. It's one of those places where you get to meet new and definitely interesting people and have those opportunities to share our faith Yes. In big and small ways.
Denise:In in Arkansas, they have what's called Bargains Galore on Highway 64, which is, from Thursday until Sunday, Saturday night. There there would be just 100 of yard sales on how on on this highway. And we would take week we would take the big weekend trips and go and come home with a van load of stuff or truck load of stuff. And and, then I got to sell them. Well, Kenny bought all these stuff, but when I sold it at my yard sale or in my booth, then I kept the money.
Denise:So he was paying for it, but I was making all the profit and stashing it away. So that that was my little that was my side income.
T.J.:Denise, the best wishes and encouragement to you as you continue on your faith journey and as you move towards, the ordination to the ministry of word and sacraments.
Denise:Thank you. I do wanna say one of the questions that you had written down to, you know, our suggestions Sure. Is about who about some of the people in our in my life that were
T.J.:Oh, yeah. Okay.
Denise:That had a positive impact on me.
T.J.:Yeah. And
Denise:I wanna I wanna talk about that because well, number 1, my grandparents. Again, my parents didn't take me to church as a as a kid, but my grandparents, when we were there, always made sure we were in church. And that was occasionally, but but it was just such a big impact on my life when I saw my grandfather singing in the choir and my grandmother sitting beside me and our family together to worship. And then I became Cumberland Presbyterian in the mid to late eighties, And Michael Qualls, doctor Michael Qualls was the pastor in at Rosehill in Monticello at that time. And he's one of those people that saw some of my skills, some of my talents, some of my gifts, and and would say, well, Denise, would you like to do this?
Denise:And I'd say, okay. I think I can do that, like, you know, and well, come on to the youth group and you can bring snacks, you know. And so I said, well, yeah, I can do that. And then he would gradually say something like, look, do you wanna teach one of the classes? And so I'd say, okay, I'll try that.
Denise:And it worked and and then he got me involved in church camp, which just changed my life. And I did not go as a as a child or as a youth. I started going as an adult working on on staff. And that absolutely changed my life. And so Michael was just such he he was there at the foundation of my spiritual growth.
Denise:And he introduced me to serving in the church. The church I had been attending as a teenager saw me as a teenager even in my twenties and early thirties. I think they still saw me as a young person and and not as someone who was supposed to be working in the church. And so Michael helped me find my place of service. And then when I started going to church camp, Marty Aiden, who is a dear friend of mine now, I met Marty through church camp.
Denise:She introduced me to the fact that I could be a female preacher. That that it was okay to be a female and a preacher. And in leadership, as elders, and things like that. And she strengthened my spirituality tremendously and she just supported my faith journey for so long and, she also hold has held me accountable to my calling and accountable to myself, and accountable to God. She doesn't let me get by with feeling sorry for myself.
Denise:And if I'm upset at someone, she turns it around and says, kinda like, what's your part in this? And you're like, how did you? And so holding me accountable has made such a big difference, you know, to help me understand why I'm upset or why this has been an issue in my life. But she also set some of the foundations for the spiritual growth as well. My field she she's helped develop my theology over the years.
Denise:And so those 3 well, my grandparents and Marty and and Michael have been so strong in helping me become a good Cumberland Presbyterian, you know, knowing the Cumberland Presbyterian Theology and knowing myself and and where god want wanted me to be.
T.J.:Well, I have appreciated your example just knowing you in different, settings, in meetings, committees, and things like that. That the way you carry yourself, the way you represent yourself, the way you ask questions in the meeting, and who you represent have always been encouraging to me in the perspective that you've brought in those different places where we have overlapped. And, I have appreciated that and what you bring to the church. And I'm excited to see your gifts flourish in in the universal church and in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. We all benefit for the good news coming through you and with you.
Denise:Thank you. And I've enjoyed our friendship. I I I don't even know how long we've been friends, but I've enjoyed our friendship being able to meet you and and and you've you have been supportive of me, and I appreciate that very much.
T.J.:Thank you for giving me of your time for the podcast. I
Denise:Thank you.
T.J.:You could have said no, and I'm glad you didn't.
Denise:Well, I said no at first because I was so wrapped up in seminary.
T.J.:So Well, that's true. That's true.
Denise:Thank you for waiting me out.
T.J.:A no today doesn't mean no tomorrow.
Denise:That's right. That's right.
T.J.:And now some closing thoughts. My conversation with Denise Adams reminded me of a book that I read by Kate Braestrup entitled Here If You Need Me. In the closing chapter, she writes of her life and experience. Death alters the reality of our lives. The death of an intimate changes it completely. No part of my life, from my most ethereal notions of god to the most mundane detail of toothbrushing, was the same after my husband died. Life consisted of one rendering novelty after another, as anyone who has lost a spouse can attest. Still, as time went on, some of those novelties proved to be blessings. And like anyone who has survived the death of an intimate, I had to learn to live with a paradox. If my husband had lived, I would not have gone to seminary, would not have been ordained. There are places that would have gone unvisited and friends I would never have met, friends I now can't imagine doing without. So while on one hand there is my darling, whom I will never cease to love and never cease to long for, and on the other hand, there is a wonderful life that I enjoy and I am grateful for. I cannot make those two realities, what I've lost and what I've found, fit together in some tidy pattern of divine causality. I just have to hold them on the one hand and on the other just like that. Friends, thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road podcast.
