Cumberland Road

T.J.: 00:03

You are listening to the Cumberland Road, where we explore faith journeys. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. This time, I am in conversation with Dennis Croslin. Dennis is a Cumberland Presbyterian minister serving the Union Hill Church in Middle Tennessee. This is the church that Dennis grew up in, and he shares his journey of how he is giving back to the faith community that nurtured him. Dennis is also a funeral director, and we begin our conversation about life, death, and being born again. Enjoy this faith conversation with Dennis Croslin.

T.J.: 01:02

Hey, Dennis. Thank you for joining me on the podcast. I thought we could open up with, your bivocational work. So you serve a congregation, we'll get to that in in a few minutes. But you also have another vocation And, so share that with me and then we can talk about the challenges of being bivocational and, balancing your work of faith, your your own faith, your family life and all the complexities that come with having a busy life, living a busy life.

Dennis: 01:36

Yeah. Well, I am a licensed funeral director and embalmer, and I have been I've been licensed since January, but I've been working at the funeral home since September of 2019. Before that, I had worked in factories my whole adult life, and I've been pastoring, the church that I'm at for 11 years. So, when I would leave here at 7 o'clock in the morning, I would have to be completely dedicated to that job until I got home at 5 o'clock in the afternoon. Mhmm.

Dennis: 02:13

And, and so I was looking for something with more flexibility. And I actually this funeral home, it's a half a mile from my house and we're in a small community. There's only, you know, 1500 people in the town of Gordonsville, where I live. But, actually, not the my boss, the one that owns a funeral home, he grew up in our church. But I worked there when I was in high school, mowing, the cemeteries and things.

Dennis: 02:43

We stayed busy mowing all the time. And I talked to them about something that's more flexible because we have hardened the the phrase, but we have a lot of dead time. You know, we may not be.

T.J.: 02:58

It's a funny pun.

Dennis: 02:59

Yeah. But we're not we're not as busy as a lot of funeral homes. Mhmm. We have 3 locations. And between those 3 locations, we'll have a 100 calls a year.

Dennis: 03:09

And so, and especially where cremations are increasing, there's less to do with that. And so, you know, we might go 2 weeks and not have anything. And so the majority of my studying really is done while I'm at the funeral home. But I also have the freedom, like tomorrow at 10:30, I'll be at the local senior citizen center, delivering a message to them. And so I have that flexibility to to do those things, to go visit if I need to, if I wanna come home and eat lunch or mow my heart.

Dennis: 03:39

And it just, there's a lot of flexibility there that I wouldn't have at another job. And and that's why I'm in this, I'm in this profession and and working for the funeral home that I do. Because other funeral homes, I would not have that flexibility. And so it just it's, it it's beneficial in that way because of the flexibility. And and I decided a couple years ago to pursue getting licensed, which is probably one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life is is being licensed, yeah, as an embalmer because I had to get another associate's degree.

Dennis: 04:19

And, then you have to take the national board test. And studying for that was ridiculous. And the test is ridiculous. And, that, I don't I don't know that I've ever been challenged that much academically. You know, anatomy and things of that nature is just I'd I'd never I'd never been challenged like that before.

Dennis: 04:51

But, you know, it's very rewarding. It it also opens opportunities. You know, you have a lot of families that come in that they may not have a pastor.

T.J.: 04:59

Mhmm.

Dennis: 04:59

And so, I have that opportunity and I preach a lot of those funerals as well. Yeah. It's hard to preach a funeral when you don't know somebody. So I was telling somebody the other day, I just I present the gospel and leave them with that with the promises of God and hope it's in Jesus Christ and and hope that they follow-up with that. But, you know, that's what I do.

Dennis: 05:27

Like I said, I've been in factory life for a long time and out the place I used to work, I was there 15 years. And so, I gave up quite a bit to to free up myself for my ministry. And and that's and that's basically why I did it. If if, I tell people if I'm not working for the funeral home that I work for, I'm not in the funeral business because I wouldn't have that flexibility to do the things I'm able to do now.

T.J.: 05:59

Dennis, there are so many questions I wanna ask you about, the funeral home and the education process that we can make this well, the whole podcast. Some of some of the questions I can't resist though. So one question I could think of is the test to become a director. So that isn't just paperwork or on computer. Is that also hands on and what does that look like?

Dennis: 06:25

So the it's 2 different things. Director and embalmer are are 2 different certifications. Okay.

T.J.: 06:31

And

Dennis: 06:31

so and I have both of them. Now, so the director, I I had to attend John a Gupton College, in in which is in Nashville. And you have to for the director aspect of it, you have to sit down with families. You've got to record yourself making videos, doing these mock, funeral arrangements and and things of that nature. You've got to know marketing.

Dennis: 06:57

You've got to know accounting. And and accounting got that was another thing that was just very challenging to me. I've always considered myself a smart fella. But, accounting would I just could not what's the purpose of this? But and so doing that, but then also, on the embalming side of it, I had to go to Nashville to a mortuary.

Dennis: 07:21

I had record that I helped with 10, you know, and record that I helped with 10, you know, and write down, you know, what fluids you use and, you know, the shape the body was in. It just all kinds of different stuff that, you know, clinicals is what they call them. So somebody that's in nursing, you know, might be more familiar. And I don't think it's as as strange as somebody that's in nursing, but you had to get that hands on experience.

T.J.: 07:55

Yeah. Kinda walk me through this is from my own curiosity. So in terms of preparing the body, I don't even know if that's the right terminology. But you have you have to prepare the body, but then you also have to measure the fluids, right, to be able to judge based upon, you know, stature or weight or size or or whatever. So there there's math in that.

T.J.: 08:23

Correct?

Dennis: 08:24

Mhmm. Yes. And and so there's a formula that when you're going through school, you use it more than when you're out of school because, you know, when you're out, just like, alright. I'll use this bottle, mix with a gallon, and that'd be done. But when you're in school, you to know the actual percentage of the of the embalming solution that you have and and all that.

Dennis: 08:48

But typically, a rule of thumb that I learned in school, but most embalmers don't follow, is one gallon of solution. So that's basically embalming fluid and water for every £50 of body weight. Now, you know, the job can be done with less or with more. And it is all body types are different. If if they have a lot of swelling, that changes things.

Dennis: 09:14

If they're emaciated, that changes things. If they're obese, that changes things. And so it's just basically, it's, it's something you gain by experience. Like, my boss can look at them. He's like, alright.

Dennis: 09:26

We need this, this, this, and this. And I'm sitting here, don't you wanna calculate this out?

T.J.: 09:35

I've noticed over the years that the turnaround in terms of preparing the body, the time has increased. And has has the preparation of the body been streamlined in the last 15, 20 years? Or is it just me paying attention?

Dennis: 09:54

Well, basically, families are different. So used to, and I think this is what you were going with. Used to, like, when the funeral home received a death call, they'd go pick up the body, and the family would go to the funeral home with them and sit there and wait. And as soon as they got the body prepared, they'd get them out and they'd start having visitation. And now, basically, you know, we'll pick up we'll pick up the deceased, and the family may come in the next day

T.J.: 10:28

Mhmm.

Dennis: 10:28

To make arrangements. And then, well, then we'll have them out the next day after that. And so, it's not that anything is changed within the last 50 years. It's just, the the needs of the families and what they want are different. And let's face it too, with cremation increasing like it has, we get, we're getting about a third of our calls or people wanting to be cremated with no service or nothing.

Dennis: 10:58

You know? And, you know, in in being in this line of work, you know, there's pluses and minuses. That's what the family wants. But I think it also, in part of my studies, and it made this made sense to me having a viewing and visitation to add some closure to the family that they might not have otherwise. And and so I think it may be, and this is just me speaking, it may lead to maybe some of the issues people have with death nowadays, because, you know, they may have loved them that dies, and they don't receive that closure.

Dennis: 11:33

And and so and then me being a pastor as well, because people say, well, how can you deal with death like that every day? I said, well, you know, I know that whoever I'm dealing with, that's just a shell. And I don't see how someone who's not born again can be in this line of work. I mean, I know there's people that are, but, it it truly, when you deal with death every day, that it it changes you a little bit.

T.J.: 12:03

I've noticed serving in ministry in different parts that there are traditions when it comes to death and funeral and actual funeral services. Open casket, closed casket, viewings, casket being closed and then reopened after a service. Mhmm. Have you noticed that, there's it varies based upon where you live or what community that you're a part of. Where does that originate?

T.J.: 12:36

Is that just tradition? Is there meaning behind those? What what do you think?

Dennis: 12:40

It it's just local traditions like so we're in Middle Tennessee, but if we have a funeral for somebody from East Tennessee, and I think you're originally from East Tennessee, the other funerals were at night. And so if if we bury somebody from East Tennessee, the funeral will be at night, and then we'll bury him the next day. And and so that's that's different. You, you know, here when we go to the graveyard, the whole family stays there. Now, and they'll, you know, fellowship and and talk to each other, but they'll stay there while, the grave is being filled where you go to other places.

Dennis: 13:20

They're like, they cut out and they don't wanna see it, you know, or or it it's just and like I said, it's just local traditions. It's just what people are used to and and what they've done, and like that with everything.

T.J.: 13:33

Yeah. That's right. I have seen. I've been part of both where if there is a graveside, and even that's changing as well, people will scatter, as soon as that prayer is over, but others will either observe and sometimes even participate, I've seen, in the filling of the grave. Alright.

T.J.: 13:56

Now, a lighter question, even maybe a silly question. I have never seen a dirty hearse. Kind of like a fire engine. Mhmm. So what's the meaning behind there it's always been a clean car.

T.J.: 14:12

How do you keep those cars cleaned?

Dennis: 14:15

Washing them all the time. That's part of what I have to do.

T.J.: 14:19

Okay. How often do you wash a car a week? I've never seen one dirty.

Dennis: 14:25

Well, the thing is it it depends. So, like, the cemetery that we typically go to is not even a half a mile down the road. So, you know, a good dry day, you know, it don't get dirty. We'll put it back in the garage, and it'd be ready for the next time. But if it rains or if it gets super dry, like, if it's been real dry here for a while, and if it's super dry and we've got the hearse out getting ready for funeral, people are mowing the yard and this, that, and other, and all kinds of just dust gets on it.

Dennis: 14:58

And so, it's basically how you I'll make a judgment call is, you know, does it need washing or does it not? Sometimes I'll just rinse it off and then dry it off, and then sometimes I'll give it a complete washing.

T.J.: 15:09

Okay.

Dennis: 15:09

You know, it just and it's it it goes back to traditions in the funeral business. So things are getting a little more lax in a lot of ways. You get more into urban areas and, you know, you'll go to a funeral and they may not wear a tie. The funeral directors may not. Mhmm.

Dennis: 15:28

To where my boss, being rural and old school, you know, we're wearing a dark suit, we got matching ties, we've got a clean hearse, you know, all those things. Yeah. You know, even, you know, I've learned that, you know, there's people, like, when they go make a we call them house calls when someone dies at home. Mhmm. You know, there's some funeral homes, like, they'll wear a polo like this, but we'll we'll change.

Dennis: 15:54

We'll put on a shirt and tie and a, a coat and and and looked looked like the typical undertaker.

T.J.: 16:05

Alright. Being a long time resident of where you are, when you were a minister first and now you're a funeral director and a minister, What do you think the message is when people see you? Have you thought about that before? Is he coming is he coming to, talk about death or make funeral arrangements or is he making a pastoral call? Is he is it a church invite?

T.J.: 16:33

Have you ever given that any thought? Because you're a long time resident.

Dennis: 16:36

Yeah. So, I've never really thought about that because, you know, I've been pastoring for 11 years, and I'm 43 years old now. And so, there there was 32 years that that wasn't part of my Okay.

T.J.: 16:54

So you have a representation prior to Yeah. Calling the ministry and the funeral director.

Dennis: 17:01

Oh, wow. So, you know, in being the the small town that it is, I've been highly involved with the youth sports. I've I've well, I've coached. I have 8 kids, and I've coached just I think just about every one of them in some shape, form, or fashion in some kind of sport at some point in their life. And so, you know, that's that's been a lot.

Dennis: 17:31

You know, like like I told you, we just got back from North Carolina. My daughter is playing in that softball tournament. And so, you know, the, the pastoral part of it has been fairly recent. Now, being in the compute the community, there's, you know, people that I know that they may reach out with questions about certain things sometimes or and even about the funeral home. It's basically the it's, it's gotten to the point, at least I feel like it's like, you know, if you know somebody in a certain position, you can ask him a question.

Dennis: 18:03

Hey. I can ask him about life and death. You know? True. True.

Dennis: 18:07

And so, and I get those. I I'll have people contact me and say, hey. I I need to make some pre need arrangements on my grandparents or, you know, or, hey. I've read this in the bible. What can you tell me about it?

Dennis: 18:23

It's you know, it's but I also hey. I wanna sign my son up for baseball. What can you help me with?

T.J.: 18:30

Oh, man. Dennis, you are a utility player. You're just able to to wear many hats in in your area.

Dennis: 18:38

Well, it's what's the price jack of all trades, master of none.

T.J.: 18:44

And 8 children. I did not know that.

Dennis: 18:46

Yeah. My wife had 3 kids when we got married and then we've had 5 more since.

T.J.: 18:54

You are a busy man.

Dennis: 18:56

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They, they range from ages of 34 to 12.

T.J.: 19:05

There's never a dull moment then. That's wonderful. Never. Never. Wonderful.

T.J.: 19:10

Man, you really, have to keep your mind spinning because you have to speak to each child differently because because they're different, first of all. But the age factor, you know, you have adults, you have teenage and preteen. Mhmm. You know, how we interact with each other depends on age and circumstance.

Dennis: 19:36

Yeah. And then the the oldest 2, they have their own children now as well. So, you know, and it's it's kinda funny. So with the different ages of the kids, so my 2 daughters, they have a nephew who's older than them. So

T.J.: 19:55

It's amazing. It's a beautiful thing, isn't it? Yeah. Having big families. Yeah.

Dennis: 20:00

Oh, I I love it. I'll I will never forget, when I first come under care of Presbyterian, and and, of course, my family was big then. So because that was I've been ordained or I've been, I've I've been ordained 7 years, but I've been pastoring 11. And so it was, like, 2012 when I come into Cary Presbyterian. So I had most of the kids.

Dennis: 20:25

I had one daughter that was born in 2012, and, a minister stood up at Presbyterian when they were examining me. And he said, is there harmony? I said, what do you mean? He said, is there harmony in your house? I said, well, there better be.

Dennis: 20:38

And but we've we've made it work. People have asked me for years how we've done it and I said, well, you know, after the first 3 or 4, the rest are gravy.

T.J.: 20:50

Do you come from a big family?

Dennis: 20:53

Not necessarily. I have 2 older brothers and a younger sister. Mhmm. And, so it's not too extremely large. And my 2 older brothers, they're quite a bit older than than us.

Dennis: 21:09

Me and my sister, there's 2 years between us, but my oldest brother is 12 years older than me, and he's a half brother. So when I was in kindergarten, he was graduating. Okay. And then he went and lived with his dad for a while in Georgia, and then my other brother, he's 7 years older than me. And so, you know, he's I was getting at that age, and he's starting to get into high school and all that, and he's doing his own thing.

Dennis: 21:32

And so it was, just basically me and my sister for a lot of it. And my mom had one brother, my dad had 2 brothers. So there's nothing really humongous. Now my wife, she's the oldest of 6. And so on that side of the family, it's it's rather large.

T.J.: 21:53

Yeah. Did you grow up? Were you one of those families that got up on Sunday morning and piled into the car and went to church? Or was that Sunday morning routine different for you? What was that like?

Dennis: 22:10

Well, so my parents divorced when I was 11 or 12.

T.J.: 22:15

Mhmm.

Dennis: 22:15

And I don't really and it's typical in a lot of famous. I don't really remember my dad going to church much, you know, but my mom was always there. And, you know, she's one of our piano players now at our church. Wow. But, you know, it was I I won't say that it was something that was always, hey.

Dennis: 22:38

This is what we're doing. We're going to church. Because, I mean, there was times when I was a kid that and being a kid is how I was. Hey. I don't wanna go to church.

Dennis: 22:45

I wanna go to the lake with my dad, and there was times I did that. But then there was also times that I took it upon myself that, you know, so we lived a mile from the church. So I'd walk to church a lot of times. And then when I got into high school and I lived with my dad, I still I made it a point I would go to church most most Sundays. You know, and there was no requirement or or anything like that.

Dennis: 23:12

I just I just went. And and so it wasn't it wasn't like we win as a whole family. But I've always, for the most part, win.

T.J.: 23:26

What was it we'll go back to around the age 12, 13. What was drawing you to church? Because I mean, I I can list off the things that would draw you to the lake or to the outdoors.

Dennis: 23:40

Well, it it it was it was something that we just always done for the most part, but, you know, and I my friends were there. I had a had a lot of at that time, our church was quite a bit larger than what it is now. And, had a lot of friends there, and so there was a lot of social aspect to it, which, you know, is like that in a lot of churches. But there were people, and this carried on into adulthood. I guess looking at some of the people that, would take an interest.

Dennis: 24:16

And so I can use the example of, one of our elders, and he's also our song leader. He was my Sunday school teacher when I was around that age. And I told him he he tried and tried to teach me and and some of the other ones, you know, but it just, is one of those things like, hey. We're gonna start we're gonna go through the whole bible. We're gonna read the whole bible, and and and and I don't think we got out of Genesis.

Dennis: 24:41

Just because, like, me and the other boy in the class would just is like, did you read this week? No. I god.

T.J.: 24:51

We were talking off mic, about the the differences between, a church invite and a relationship with Jesus Christ. There's a difference between church attendance and I think discipleship, growing in the faith.

Dennis: 25:09

Absolutely.

T.J.: 25:10

So looking back, we're we're still kind of in your teenage years. Any pivotal moments, that fed into a profession of faith, that influenced you, that tugged on you, that solidified or at least a starting point for, having Jesus Christ as your lord and savior?

Dennis: 25:35

Well, so when I was I guess I was about 12 or 13 in in that time frame. Actually, I went to a tent revival. And, the first night, I remember an invitation was given, and I went down. And and then when it was over, there were some, they asked to come to the back and and and they did that. And I just went back to my seat.

Dennis: 26:01

Well, I went back the next night, and I went back there with them. And and it they did what you see in a lot of meetings like that is, hey. They had this card and build it out, and on such and such day, I I gave my heart to Christ. And but that was it. You know, there was at a at a at a place like that, there was no discipleship to follow-up on.

Dennis: 26:25

But I do I do remember, you know, as I got older and I got and I progressed, you know, the conviction of sin was greater than it ever had been. But and then that culminated, the moment that I can sit here and say, hey, that was it. It was when I was 28 years old. And like I said, I feel like I was born again before then just because of the conviction of sin Mhmm. That I had.

Dennis: 26:55

Because I I knew there was for me to profess Christ there, it had to look different than what I was doing. But when I was 28, I had me and my wife had been out of church a couple of years, and I went back to church. And and in that time while we was married, we went to a charismatic church that my older brother went to. And, that's a whole other story in itself. But, I decided to go back to my own church where I'm pastoring now.

Dennis: 27:29

And and again, that goes back to the people that took an interest in me. Because when I would visit, I I knew they was interested in me and what I was doing and and how I was doing. And so as I got involved, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna read the Bible for myself. I don't wanna have to depend on people or or or just go by what people tell me.

Dennis: 27:52

And I'm I'm reading the Bible, Genesis to Revelation, and and I'm sitting here and it just hits me while I'm reading the law. And and as I'm reading the law and I'm looking at these things, it's like, I can't do this. I mean and and it's and it's stuff like, you know, when a woman is menstruating, she can't be touched at all. Or, you know, if a a man can't shave his head unless he's in the morning, he's not supposed to shave the points of his beard. And and I remember I'm sitting here here in on the couch and my wife was sitting at the computer and I'm reading this stuff to her.

Dennis: 28:32

I was like and that's when it hit me is, you know, I've been in church my whole life. I've been told Jesus Christ died for my sins my whole life. And it was at that point that I realized now I know why. Because I I can't I can't keep the law. I can't save myself.

Dennis: 28:54

He had to come and die to do something I couldn't do.

T.J.: 28:57

Mhmm.

Dennis: 28:58

And, and from that point on, it's, that's, you know, it's been that's I guess, I would say that's really my launching point. And and that's why, I'm a very when people say they don't like to read the old testament, I said maybe you need to look at it a little bit. And then from that point on, that's something I do every year to I'll I'll read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. And sometimes I do it twice in a year. It depends on what's going on.

Dennis: 29:32

But, so it's been about, I don't know, 15 times or 16 or so that I've I've read the Bible all the way through. And, of course, you you you pick up on different stuff every every time you read it.

T.J.: 29:47

Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. How do you break it up in in reading through the Bible in a year or within a 12 month period or less? Do you break it up by chapters or sections?

T.J.: 30:00

What were what's been working for you?

Dennis: 30:02

So typically, what I do and this is how I explain it to people because it people can be intimidated when Mhmm. You're talking about reading the whole bible. And so I tell him, so look, if you read 10 chapters a day, and on average, you're looking at 30 minutes, you'll you'll have it read in 4 months Mhmm. Which is you know, that's not a bad, you know, goal. Now there's been times I read it one time in 31 days.

Dennis: 30:32

Now, I need to preface that too. I had had odor surgery. So I was off of work. This is when I still worked in a factory. So I hadn't I had nothing to do all day except breathe my bop.

Dennis: 30:44

So I was

T.J.: 30:44

You were you were literally off your feet.

Dennis: 30:47

Yeah. So, that was, and so that's that's 40 chapters a day is what I was reading then. And so you can you can break it up. However, you know, if you read 20 chapters a day, you're gonna read it in 2 months. You know, but 10 chapters a day is is not an unattainable deal, and and you can read it in 4 months.

Dennis: 31:11

And personally, I like reading it in a shorter span. You know, I know some people read it in a year, which comes down to about 3 chapters a day. But I I like the fact that, you know, if you're reading if you're reading more at a time, you read the prophecies in Isaiah, you know, it's not that long. You're reading the fulfillment of those prophecies in the gospels. And so and it comes together like that.

Dennis: 31:34

And I've read it chronologically as well. And I've read all all kinds of different translations. I've read the King James, the ESV, the CSB, the NASB, the common English Bible, the New King James. So, you know, you you get a lot of different things that way as well.

T.J.: 31:55

Mhmm. You were talking about that pivotal moment or a pivotal moment. We all have more than 1. But looking at the law, realizing that you, through your physical and mental abilities, cannot fulfill the law and their reliance on Jesus. Talk about the little changes or maybe they were big changes and transformations that began happening in the way that you lived from that moment on?

Dennis: 32:27

Well, a lot of it was being truly born again. My desires changed. I used to I used back in my previous life, I guess, I used I drank quite a bit. I got around quite a bit. And, since then, it's, you know, that's that's been easy.

Dennis: 32:48

I mean, I hadn't drank since and, you know, not that not that and I'll say this. I mean, I don't think you we're not teetotalers by no means. But, I've always looked at it this way is, you know, you don't wanna be this stumbling block to somebody else. And so, if the wrong person sees me having a beer or whatever, then that could affect them. And so I I just haven't done that.

Dennis: 33:19

But the my my dependence upon the Lord and and things like just I'll use this as an example of where I live. I have a tree in the backyard and a big limb split out of it. And and, I mean, I'm I'm talking about a limb that was half the tree nearby it. I mean, it it was about 2 and a half foot in diameter, and and it split out, and it's still up in the tree. And I I did not have the tools or the wherewithal to get it down.

Dennis: 33:51

I have young kids and I, you know, it was a hazard. And I came in the house after fighting with it, trying to cut what I could, and my wife had made tuna salad. And I sat down and I fixed and ate my tuna salad and ended up saying my blessing. And my wife made the comment, she said, that's a long blessing. I said, I was asking for help with that tree.

Dennis: 34:15

And so I thought when I got done with my sandwich, I go outside and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna mow a little bit and think about this. And my yard is 2 and a half acres, and it's long. So it's it's narrow and long. So as I'm making this trip around, I get to the road, and my house is a good bit off the road. And I get down to the road, and there's this neighbor across the street that I haven't talked to since I've lived there.

Dennis: 34:39

I've seen him out and about. We lived there 6 years. And he stopped me, and he said, you need help with that tree? I said, yes. As a matter of fact, I do.

Dennis: 34:50

And and and he helped me. He had a little tractor and he pulled the limb down and everything. And and really it did hit me till later on, my wife's told me, she said, you you did ask for help with that tree from God. And and I was like, oh, wow. You know, and just and it's and it's things like that and and noticing, you know, how God works all around us, in ways that you don't know.

Dennis: 35:14

I'm a I'm a full full believer in being dependent on his providence. You know, and that's and that kinda goes into, you know, why I'm in this job that I have right now because I took I gave up a lot of money a year to change careers. But, you know, when Jesus says, you know, look at the lilies of the field, You know, look at the sparrows. Look at the birds. How, you know, how I provide food for them.

Dennis: 35:43

I wanna provide for my own. And so that was one of the things. It's like, you know what? If I'm gonna if I'm gonna preach this, I gotta trust it. Right?

Dennis: 35:51

And, and so, and it just went from there. But, you know, just seeing, seeing how God works in everything, I, I say quite a bit. There's no I don't believe there's any such thing as coincidences for the most part. I mean, I guess some things are, but, but most time, it's just God's providence.

T.J.: 36:14

Looking back across your life, who are some of the people that have influenced and deepened your faith, your relationships with your wife, your children, your, gosh, your education to your vocations. Who are some of those people? And and, yeah, just talk about maybe where they've impacted you in in special and positive ways.

Dennis: 36:47

So, I mentioned him a little while ago as one of the elders at our church, was also one of my Sunday school teachers. Mhmm. The

T.J.: 36:56

man of patience who never was able to get through Genesis.

Dennis: 37:00

Yeah. Yeah. Not because of him. Start. Yeah.

Dennis: 37:03

I don't know that we ever started Exodus, But, you know, he he he tried really hard, and and I wasn't very receptive at that age. But, you know, like I said, he tried. And there's another man who's an elder at our church and he's passed away now. When I went back, just how welcoming he he was in and that's, you know, that's and maybe that's God's providence again. That's why I'm at the church that I'm at now.

Dennis: 37:38

And again, I was raised in that church, but we had visited and had attended other places. Mhmm. You know, and then, you know, being in the line of work that I'm in and working at the funeral home, I talked to a lot of pastors, from a lot of different traditions. And around here in such a rural setting, there's not, like growing up, I visited different churches. And for the most part, I didn't see a hill of beans worth the difference in any of them at that time.

Dennis: 38:07

Now I know the differences. But, you know, you know, if if we have a love for Jesus and are born again, we have that commonality. And and I'm able to fellowship with them. I was going through Romans, on our Wednesday night bible study not too long ago. And, you know, Romans 14 and 15, and it and it I pointed out to my congregation.

Dennis: 38:32

I said, look, for the most part, the differences that we have from other denominations in our area are not enough keep us from fellowshipping with them with each other. Now there's some that, you know, there is, but for the most part, there's not. And but yet, you know, there's there's groups that, you know, I've I've seen many that they'll talk more about who they dis fellowship with, or, you know, then Yeah. What they have in common.

T.J.: 39:02

Mhmm.

Dennis: 39:03

So I have those conversations and and those, you know, I love I I love talking Bible with with anybody. I love talking about Jesus, and and just seeing what God's doing. It it warms my heart, you know, when when people have that joy and are able to talk about it. And then and, of course, you know, I listen to, a lot of different preachers. I have, like, I'll start every day.

Dennis: 39:32

I'll listen to RC Scrull and John MacArthur. I listened to a guy named Mike Favarez out in California. In times past, I've listened to a lot of Tony Evans. I've listened to a lot of Adrian Rogers. You know?

Dennis: 39:45

And and so I've listened to a lot of different people, and and that helps as well. And then just to look, you know, closer to my circle, my wife is is is about as faithful as you can get. She's constantly, you know, I say that I've read my Bible probably 14, 15 times from front to back. She's She started way after me, but she constantly reads it. So what I'll do is I'll read it at the 1st of the year.

Dennis: 40:17

When I get done, I'm reading other things. And she just, she's like, I don't have time for those other things. I'm just reading the Bible. And, and so she, I mean, she's constant. And I I would dare say that she's read through it all the way 20 times in the past, you know, 18 years.

Dennis: 40:38

But just, and the change in her life as well because, you know, both of us, you know, before Christ, you know, we have our flaws and and, she's one she's worked hard to heal the flesh, so to speak, and and and and be different. And and and just, you know, and just what you see in different people through different days. And, you know, sometimes my kids do something that amazes me, with their faith. Now there's other times it makes me scratch my head and wanna beat my head up against the wall. But, you know, that's that's part of a I I because I look at myself, and and I know that people looked at me and wanted to pull their hair out.

Dennis: 41:27

And, but, and then there's, you know, there's some that when they found out that I'm a pastor, like, Dennis is a pastor. Because there was, you know, in full disclosure, I used to be known more, especially when I was in high school, for the parties I threw, not for the bible that I need.

T.J.: 41:51

Well, you could have different kinds of parties now.

Dennis: 41:55

Oh, well, we have a lot of birthday parties.

T.J.: 41:57

Alright. Alright.

Dennis: 41:59

Well, that that maybe kids, you have a lot of birthday parties.

T.J.: 42:02

That's true. That's true. I think, I think sometimes we use the word fellowship pretty loosely, and in ways, they're they're parties in a good way in a good way.

Dennis: 42:12

Yeah. But and and, you know, and this is something that I've talked to our church about too. And a lot of times and not that it's inherently wrong, but a lot of times, like, say we get there before Sunday school and and we're talking, and a lot of times the fellowship is not centered as much on God. I mean, that's why we're there supposedly. But, you know, we'll be talking about the draft or this basketball game or this, that, and other.

Dennis: 42:40

And and and I'll be honest, and and that goes back to one of the things that's different about my life. I used to spend all day Saturday and Sunday during football season watching football. And I'll watch I'll watch UT on Saturdays if if I if I can. If I can, it's no big deal. And then I'll watch the Titans on Sunday.

Dennis: 42:58

But if I can, it's no big deal. And and that's something that god is, god has relieved me of that infatuation, so to speak.

T.J.: 43:10

Well, priorities have changed.

Dennis: 43:13

Oh, absolutely.

T.J.: 43:14

And your interest has Yeah. Changed.

Dennis: 43:17

Yeah. But and and and I look at this way too is is a lot of times, I'll spend Saturday, getting ready for Sunday. And what I mean by that is, you know, because not that I'm trying to cram my sermon in or the Sunday night sermon in or anything like that, but, it it'll be on my mind all day. And, you know, granted, there'll be things that, you know, come up in the meantime, and I'll deal with. But, I I try to do that.

Dennis: 43:50

Not to say I don't do other things, but, you know, I I use this example, my my daughters. So out of my children, the oldest 6 are all boys and the youngest 2 are the girls. And, you know, especially during the summer, there's one night they have a bedtime and that's Saturday night, you know, to to be prepared for Sunday morning. And and and not that not that we should, you know, again, going back to that Roman study where Paul said, hey. Some people esteem one day higher than everything else and others esteem every day alike.

Dennis: 44:28

You know, I would look at every day as a holy day, but it's the day that we've set aside together as a church family

T.J.: 44:34

Mhmm.

Dennis: 44:35

And to worship. And when you look at the purpose of assembling together is to encourage each other, to edify one another, to strengthen the body of Christ. And, you know, we need to take it serious and, there's too many times and and, you know, maybe every pastor is frustrated by this, but, you know, you see people that put a half hearted effort into the assembly. You know, and because we have to remember we're there, we're to glorify God and but we're to build up each other. We're to edify one another, to encourage one another as much as we see the day approaching.

Dennis: 45:16

Because I use that, I use that scripture in Hebrews 1025 quite a bit. You know, don't forsake this emblem of yourselves. But it's not to forsake this emblem of yourselves to hear a sermon. You know, that's not mentioned there. So that's we're we're there to encourage and edify one another, and that's what it says.

Dennis: 45:37

And and I guess, you know, kind of on the side note, that's one thing what I hate about, what has happened since COVID, is like you'll ask somebody, well, what did you go to church today? Yeah. I watched the sermon on live streams. That's I mean, it's good. It's good that you watch a sermon, but, and it's not that, you know, they have fears and and, you know, of catching a virus, but they just has made it to where people can watch a sermon from their couch, and that's their attendance of church when it the fellowship and the meeting together and encouraging one another needs to happen.

Dennis: 46:15

And so, you know, maybe in a sense, over the years too, pastors have been elevated, you know, which believe me, I'm a firm believer in preaching and giving a sermon and and being there and teaching and and and, as I used the example of Paul says when he told the Ephesian elders, he said, look, I I I I gave you the whole counsel of God. And, so, you know, I I do my best to do that, but, you know, we're there to encourage and and strengthen the church, strengthen the body of Christ. And you do that face to face for the most part.

T.J.: 46:52

Yeah. Yeah. Community is the gathering of us together. And ideally, that means, you know, in person if possible. There's something about the screen.

T.J.: 47:06

I mean, we're using it now, but there's that sense of there's a distance as opposed to us sitting, across the table from each other. This works. It just doesn't replace the true fellowship of sharing the same room, sharing the same space.

Dennis: 47:26

Yeah. You know, technology is wonderful because it does make possible things that wasn't possible before.

T.J.: 47:33

Right.

Dennis: 47:33

But it it's it's not like if we were able to meet together and to shake each other's hand or, you know, and and and things of that nature. So, you know, we're able to do something we probably wouldn't have been able to do. But, when when you can, it's always better to, you know, meet together, and and I think that's one thing that's been forsaken maybe in the church today. There's just it's too much to the screen when it doesn't have to be. That's that's the big thing.

T.J.: 48:05

Right. I wanna go back to the exercise of reading the scriptures and reading through the Bible. If stranger off the street came up to you and said, hey, what does that book say? Just give me give it to me in brief. What would you share?

T.J.: 48:30

How would you articulate such a a thick, rich text, that has some most impactful good news in world history.

Dennis: 48:49

Well and so, you mentioned the good news and and I always wanted to understand truly what good news is. You have to know the bad news. And so the bad news is is we're fallen creatures in desperate need of a savior. We can't save ourselves. You know, our sin demands a sacrifice.

Dennis: 49:13

We're sinful creatures. We sin against a holy God, and and to take that bad news, but then give the good news. Or or going back to the bad news, say, in Genesis, you know, Adam and Eve fail, and and and we're following creation from that. And we have the law that God has shown us our need for a savior. And and it's kinda like Galatians 3 says, the law was our school master to bring us to Christ.

Dennis: 49:43

And so when we read the law, we find how inadequate we are or how sinful we are. And God in his love, in his mercy, in his providence, in his foreknowledge, in in his grace has provided that sacrifice needed. When our sin demands a sacrifice, he demand he provided that in Jesus Christ. And so from Genesis to Revelation, you have our fall, our sin, our need for a savior, the prophecy of that savior. You have the savior coming and fulfilling that prophecy and dying for our sins on the cross in our place.

Dennis: 50:23

And then you have the spread of the church from that point on, from acts into the epistles of Paul and of James and of Peter, and then we are looking to the consummation of all things. And when when all is said and done and the the return of Christ, we see all these things, the hope. So you have you have the condemnation at the beginning, but you also have hope at the beginning. As what's, you know, in Genesis 315, you know, as as some would call the protoevangel, the the first evangelistic prophecy, and where the the seed of Eve would bruise Satan's head, and you have that. And that's the hope.

Dennis: 51:06

It starts there, and it goes on and it's fulfilled in Christ and the gospels, and it's gonna be consummated completely, at the end. And and I would say, so from Genesis to Revelation, it is a book of hope. It it it shows you why you may think you have no hope. How, you know, woe is me as as Peter told Christ when when he pulled up the hall of fishes, he said, depart from me for I'm a sinful man. But in God's grace, you know, he sent Christ, to reconcile us to God.

Dennis: 51:44

In in our sin, we we are made enemies of God. We are enemies of God. But one of my favorite passages is Romans 5, and while we were yet enemies, Christ died for us. And, and so you got the bad news. Look, you're a sinful creature in need of a savior, but the good news is God sent that savior.

T.J.: 52:05

Well, I think that was probably about 1 third of what your sermon could be this coming Sunday.

Dennis: 52:12

Well, so I'm preaching through the book of the gospel of John. So I'm an expository preacher and I'm starting John chapter 3. So, basically, it's gonna be you must be born again. So that's part of it. Yeah.

T.J.: 52:28

Alright, Dennis. Walk me through the timeline and your experience of entering in to the ministry of the word and the sacraments. Sound like you were moving towards your life is coming together, your relationships are coming together, you've got a family, You've got good work. Why would you muck it up by entering into the ministry? I say that tongue in cheek.

T.J.: 52:55

But

Dennis: 52:55

Right. So what happened let's see. I guess it was around it's between say, I said I was 28 years old. So about 2,009. I went back to church and and I just I'd become more active than I ever have.

Dennis: 53:14

And in 20 10, I was an or ordained as an elder in our church, and started teaching Sunday school, teaching the youth, to just becoming involved. And my wife asked me one night, she said, have you been called to preach? And and it was one of those things that I wasn't sure about at the time. And I said, no. And she said, good.

Dennis: 53:40

I don't wanna be married to a preacher. And, now remember, she's different person than she was then, Because we were still, you know, God was working on us, both of us pretty heavily at that time. And the pastor that was at our church at the time, say and I still do this now. We have Sunday school at 10. I get there at like 9.

Dennis: 54:05

And and so I was there early and the pastor was living in the parsonage or the manse, at that time. And he said, he just flat out asked me, have you been called to preach? And I really don't remember what my answer to him was at that time. It might have been like, I don't know. I'm not sure.

Dennis: 54:27

I don't know. Mhmm. But back then, we used to have a revival meeting. It was interdenominational. So, you know, the the Baptists and the Methodists and whoever else, you know, basically, most everybody but the church of Christ would meet together and and have a community revival.

Dennis: 54:52

And there was one night at the invitation, the the man who was preaching, he said, hey, I need all the pastors to come down here. And he said, even if you've even if you've just been called to preach, and that's when I I felt the Lord speak to me, in in my spirit and say, do something. And so that's when I acknowledged it. And so I and I don't I guess that's probably that was somewhere between 2010 and 2012. Because 2012, I come under the care of the presbytery and started going to pass.

Dennis: 55:31

And and then also with that, to fulfill the pass requirements, I needed an associate's degree. So I went back to college. I'd had, I probably had basically a half a year's worth of credits. So I went back to college. So I went back to college.

Dennis: 55:50

I was going to pass. And in 2013, something happened that the pastor left the church, and and I was absent I'd only went to been in the pause program for a year, and I didn't even take a full load, because it took me 5 years to get through it. But I was approached about being the pastor, and I'm like, well, I've been called to preach. I'm going through this program. I guess so.

Dennis: 56:22

Now and I look back as physically and mentally and experience wise, I I wasn't ready. But, that was in 2013. And that and even that was eventful in itself because in April of 2013, I preached in presbytery. Well, in May May 14, 2013, I had an accident where I got my leg caught in a garden tiller. And that was the that was the week that I became the pastor of the church too.

Dennis: 56:58

So for I had this for 6 weeks, I had this splint from the whole length of my leg. And so I'm sitting in a bar chair that, you know, that kinda swivels. It's got a back to it at the pulpit, and I'm putting my leg in another bar chair. And and so that was my first 6 weeks as pastor of that church.

T.J.: 57:22

Wow.

Dennis: 57:23

That's how I was delivering the messages. And and so and then come July, I just got the cast off. I went to pass. Mhmm. Then right after I got home with that, the my leg was infected, and it's infected so bad as down to the bone.

Dennis: 57:42

And I just went back to work for, like, a week. It it was like nothing. And so, so it got infected and it was so deep into the bone, They couldn't just give me antibiotics. They had to give me a PICC line. So I was out of work for that.

Dennis: 57:58

And so that was that was all, you know, ran at the same time, and and it's kinda my wife kinda laughs about it now because I you know, we're we are busy people, everybody generally is. But I was super busy at that time, and and she'd been asking God that I'd spend more time at home. Well, I got my leg caught in the garden tiller and it answered her prayer. So

T.J.: 58:21

Oh, man. That's a lot going on in a short period of time. You you had said that, Dennis. How did you maintain sanity? How did you not get discouraged?

T.J.: 58:36

How did you not get overwhelmed? Because it would have been really easy to okay. I'm gonna put I have to put something aside so that I can heal, I can focus. What what was your mindset? What was what were you thinking?

Dennis: 58:53

Well, I feel like the Lord has has blessed me in a sense that I don't get discouraged very easily. Now I will say that there was times, the main the biggest time I got discouraged and all that is when it got infected. And that was it was like, good grief. I just got over this, and here it comes again. Mhmm.

Dennis: 59:16

And because I had to go in and open me back up and do what's called a debridement and clean all that infection out. And and then also too, there was some nerve damage. And so I I had what was called drop foot, so I couldn't raise my foot up. I could push it down. But and I and, you know, now granted there's people that have, you know, more disability than what I had with that.

Dennis: 59:40

But I mean, I would break a sweat trying to move my pinky toe. And, you know, because just trying now luckily, and and by God's grace, that come back. And so, you know, now I have full movement in it, but, you know, I didn't I didn't get discouraged except for that point. But I always I I I look at it this way is you look at people in the faith that had gone before us. You know, like use example of Paul the apostle.

Dennis: 01:00:11

You know, people quote Philippians 413 all the time, you know, for football, for sports, or whatever, for any accomplishment, so to speak. But, you know, Paul is writing that, you know, imprisoned in Rome, and his, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, as he can go through these times where it looks like it's dark. It looks like everybody else in the world is against you, but you still have Christ. And so, you know, granted, I was, you know, I I was coming along in my faith and, the discouragement so much wasn't there. I've always, I guess, like I said, by God's grace that I've been able to roll with the punches for this, so to speak.

T.J.: 01:01:00

Yeah.

Dennis: 01:01:01

But, still, I had a lot of people around. There was money issues, at the time. So I went you know, I'm working full time and I get injured. Now we had short term disability insurance, so that was 2 thirds of my pay. Well, you know, I had at that time, like, you know, 6, 7, 8 miles to feed at home, and we've always been a single income family.

Dennis: 01:01:27

And and so once you when your paycheck is is cut down that much, and then it it dragged on so long that that ended, and so I had to go to long term disability. And that took a lot for that to get started. And so, you know, our church, some of our elders, some other churches, you know, chipped in at what whether it's money, whether it's food, whether it's taking the kids here or there, you know, that all, that help came from all sides. And so that that was very appreciative. You know, sometimes I I don't think back on it enough, to be honest with you.

Dennis: 01:02:13

But, to look back and just see how much, you know, people helped at that time. And because I always tell people, look, as a Christian, you're never meant to do it in a vacuum. You're never meant to do it by yourself, and and you definitely need those people around you. And that was a time that was like it for sure.

T.J.: 01:02:36

Yeah. Was it hard to receive help in the forms that it came to you? Was it difficult?

Dennis: 01:02:46

No. No. I I'm I'm all about, I'm all about free stuff in a sense, you know. You're gonna bring me some free food. I'm gonna eat it.

Dennis: 01:02:58

But it it wasn't so hard because, you know, the Lord had had dealt with some pride issues

T.J.: 01:03:06

Mhmm.

Dennis: 01:03:06

And still. You know? I can even say recently, the Lord has dealt with some pride issues with me. And, and and so he he has a way of humbleness and, you know, all I could be is, you know, there was some Sunday mornings that a pastor that I know, you know, he was on his way to his church and he stopped by our house because I couldn't leave the house at that time. He stopped by and and, you know, gave us some money, from their church.

Dennis: 01:03:38

And it was just, it's just being appreciative. Mhmm. Because I I feel like I had a good understanding of why they were doing it, and I knew I needed it. And, you know, we, you know, we try to do our church or myself, try to do the same thing if we see other people. Because I can say, hey.

Dennis: 01:03:58

I have been there, you know, and I needed I needed that help. And, you know, you look at again, going back to the apostle Paul is you know, he needed that help too. You know, he he tells I think it was Timothy. He told, hey, when you come bring my cloak. It's cold.

Dennis: 01:04:18

I I I need it. You know? And and so you you need that. We all need that.

T.J.: 01:04:28

I think, Christians exhibit their faith well when in in those moments of need, in those moments of giving, and seeking out those moments. Because they're not always visible in terms of giving. I'm not talking about just money, but giving of time, giving of yourselves, giving of a listening ear. Those that's where some of the we were talking about wealth off mic. I think there's a wealth of that among, our brothers and sisters in Mhmm.

T.J.: 01:05:08

Christ.

Dennis: 01:05:10

Absolutely.

T.J.: 01:05:11

You've, essentially, you've been a lifelong Cumberland Presbyterian, and Mhmm. You grew up in church. Now you are one of the leaders in in the church looking at where we are now as a denomination and also into the future of the denomination, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church that we can become. What what are some of the ideas that you have, hopes that you may have for us as a body?

Dennis: 01:05:44

Well, in you know, that's that's a I will say it's a tricky question because, I'll be honest and speak for myself. There's been some discouragement for me, in the past few years. And and I would say my hope is that, you know, as a denomination, I I'd almost say go back to the roots, so to speak. I feel like that there's and and it's not just us, but a lot of churches today have let the world be the influence on them more so than them influencing the world. And, you know, I understand that people have their own convictions and things of that nature, but, you know, I I've been, I I've lost some sleep, and I have, been heartbroken over some things that have been said, that have went on, and, you know, I was and I was right at the forefront of some of the debate, well, you know, over the amendments and and things of of that nature, especially in our presbytery.

Dennis: 01:07:05

And, you know, it was one of those things that I got to a point that I just I don't know if I can fight anymore. You know? And and so that's and it's hard to it's hard to fellowship on some things. And and so, you know, to say my hope for the denomination is, I I would almost say, and I'm looking at our church to do this as well. I've been studying the reformation quite a bit, and and maybe a a a new reformation.

Dennis: 01:07:47

And and the thing is, when a reformation happens is you're basically from what I see is, like, you know, in you go back to the original, you know, and and and that's what I'm I'm kinda thinking, at least like for our church. I'm not even wanting to go back to I'm looking into singing the Psalms. You know, I've I've looked at some Psalm hymn books and so I'm like, you know, that's what Jesus say, you know, and and and going back to that. And so that's basically what I look at the hope for our church. I mean, you you wanna you wanna move forward, but sometimes you have to, if you get too far away from the original, you need to go back and and reset, so to speak.

Dennis: 01:08:38

And, you know, the denomination, I think, may need to do that. And because from what I've seen in the past few years is and and I wonder about this. I don't know I don't know that it survives from some things I've seen. You know, and and I I've to be honest, I've come to terms with that. I'm in a church that I have been in my whole life.

Dennis: 01:09:10

I told you my great grandfather was ordained an elder there in 1914, and and I'm satisfied that I have relatives that go back even further than that. And, you know, that's that's not easy for me, but, you know, it's it's it's kinda basically I'm preparing myself for how things need to happen or what we need to do as a church or myself as a pastor and and and go from there.

T.J.: 01:09:44

I think it probably has always been that way. In terms of tomorrow, I don't know what tomorrow will bring. I have the year and the now and how I carry I'm speaking individually here. How I carry myself in the here and the now may inform and will inform tomorrow if it's there. You broaden that out a bit to community of faith like the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.

T.J.: 01:10:21

The challenge of being able to look inward and look in the past and look forward, I guess from a physical point of view, that's impossible to do. But that doesn't mean that we don't do each of those maybe in turn because each inform, well, the end, the future. And I think that's a challenge that each of us can face both individually, but going back we you'd mentioned the word assembly, you know, and and gathering together and and fellowship. And I like the word community, how much stronger that is when we do these things together, even if we're not terribly excited about some of the companies that we keep. Yeah.

T.J.: 01:11:12

You know, being able to do that together, knowing the importance of sharing that good news is the of the highest priority. And maybe not what my plans or agendas or goals may be, but it is that kingdom building and the kingdom is being built through the sharing of the good news.

Dennis: 01:11:38

Yeah. And and that's where, you know, yes, we're a connectional church, but, you know, I have to I have to look at too. You know, there's there's a lot of people that I have to stand in front of every week, you know, 3 times a week. And and to encourage them to go out, you know, and I and I try to put this in every every time we meet. It's like, hey, we are to go out and share the gospel.

Dennis: 01:12:11

You know, the great commission was just not for ordained clergy. And and so I have to look at, you know, and maybe some people may disagree with this, but when I look at my role as a local pastor, that supersedes, the the denomination as a whole, if that makes sense.

T.J.: 01:12:40

Well, it's what's before you daily. The you know, this is your Yes. This is the inner circle, but there are other circles that you are involved in as well that may not just be Cumberland Presbyterian. It's just the community, your your other vocation. You have that there's other circles of Christians.

T.J.: 01:13:03

There your circles of influence. That phrase is used sometimes. And so but you have to begin somewhere, but that somewhere doesn't stop just with that one circle, unless we lived in a cave somewhere, you know, or remote island. Yeah.

Dennis: 01:13:21

And I think and I think, you know, even looking at the great commission, you know, you start at a centralized point and work your way out. And so, growing that circle, so to speak. And so regardless, you know, looking at, say, going back to the bigger part of the circle and the denomination, regardless of what happens with the denomination, you know, my role doesn't change. You know, and so I use I use example too, you know, to maybe put a political spin on it. You know, people get hung up on who wins the office of president, and I've talked to people and, hey.

Dennis: 01:14:01

You need to vote for this person. And I said, look, regardless of who wins, my role, my responsibility to preach the gospel is not gonna change. Now the context that that happens and the pressures from within and without may vary and may be different, But my role is still not gonna change. And when and even so looking at the political elections, Look, the whoever gets elected mayor of Gorgeville affects my life more than who gets elected president of the United States. And so, you know, that's the stuff that's right there is what matters the most and you work out from there.

Dennis: 01:14:44

And so looking at the denomination again, you know, even regardless of what my opinions are of the denomination and the direction it's going or what have you, I still, I have to teach and preach the word to a number of people each week, and that doesn't change.

T.J.: 01:15:02

Yeah. I think our language is important too. I think, I a year over the years, myself included, when we talk about like for Cumberland Presbyterian specifically, we'll we'll say they in reference to presbytery or, you know, they in the denomination. Mhmm. And not recognizing that, well, they, Murfreesboro Presbytery, is well, that's me because that's where, you know, the the church is part of that presbytery and my membership is in that presbytery.

T.J.: 01:15:38

Not just Murfreesboro, but any. And I think we do, kind of sever unconsciously, maybe consciously, but unconsciously, like that connectional aspect of like, oh, wait. Yeah. I can be disappointed in how a a meeting goes or the length of the meeting or worship service or whatever. But that's still me.

T.J.: 01:16:00

And I think that's important to keep in mind as well, as in there's a sense of responsibility, that I have, that I am a part of my presbytery. Even when I wanted to stince myself, I'm still a part of it. And, and that that I have responsibility in that as well. Anyway, it's just an observation that I've noticed over the long years, not like currently or yesterday or anything like that, is we have this tendency to, go well, they did that or or, they're not like us, they and us. And really we're all kind of this in the same pot most of the time anyway.

Dennis: 01:16:47

Well, and and I think that comes, from both sides, actually. You know, because like my you know, our church is a smaller church, and the closest the other closest CP church to us is, like, 20 miles away. Yeah. And so there's always been that distance. And, you know, for you know, you can feel like at a smaller church, maybe presbytery forgets about you or loses sight of you, and and that creates

T.J.: 01:17:23

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Dennis: 01:17:24

And that that helps that. Now

T.J.: 01:17:27

And then then you got churches that are in the city or in a more, suburban or urban area and then, you know, maybe you're a part of a church that's in a more rural setting. Yeah. That they and us I mean, there's so many factors that come into it. It's it's the geography. It's it's, the makeup of the different churches.

T.J.: 01:17:49

It's worship practices. It could it could be the division of a highway. They're on the other side of the highway than we are, you know, on I40.

Dennis: 01:17:59

And it and it's like it's like anything. There's a lot of lines of demarcation. You know, you take even in ministers, right or wrong, you know, there's, you know, ones that may have went to seminary or have their doctorate, then you got the guys that went to pass or or there's any and even even in some presbyteries, you have folks that just went to past, don't even have an associate's degree, don't have any kinda other undergraduate stuff. You know, it's it's dependent on the presbytery. And so there's, you know, there's lines of of demarcation all about it.

Dennis: 01:18:36

And, you know, I always go back because we've had these discussions and, you know, in our church and I've had them with other people. And, you know, I'm I'm not one that says you have to do this because I did it. You know, you know, try to be gracious and such. But either way, you know, God is not a respecter of persons. And and I lean on that.

Dennis: 01:19:04

And I also lean on Philippians 3 when when Paul is talking about all his earthly accomplishments as a Pharisee. Use some pretty colorful language and just straight out calls it dumb. That, it it when you really think about that, it's it could cause you to, you know, take notice. Yeah. You know?

T.J.: 01:19:30

Yeah. The education, the differences of, you know, where people went to school or how they went school, when they went to school. I've forgotten all about that. That's that's very true in our denomination. And I don't know if there's any like resolution.

T.J.: 01:19:50

Maybe if there is, the first step would be is in the awareness that we do it instead of they do it or us. Yeah. You know, that it's just something that we do. I mean, we do it in other settings as well, sports, and maybe even within our own families. Well, you know, they aren't gonna come to Thanksgiving.

Dennis: 01:20:13

It it it basically, it it distances you from that. We actually had a discussion in a session meeting not too long ago. Somebody said, well, I'll they said, what was it? They said, we'll do like this former elder used to do. They said, you know, when they had a complaint or something that need to be done or something Yeah.

Dennis: 01:20:36

They say

T.J.: 01:20:37

Yeah.

Dennis: 01:20:37

And and maybe not putting a name to it or maybe it's even coming from them. They say it, but, you know, I agree with them or yeah.

T.J.: 01:20:46

Yeah.

Dennis: 01:20:47

We we do that, I don't know, maybe it it distances ourselves from what we perceive as problems. The problems are on them, not us.

T.J.: 01:20:57

I think where we live too influences it as well. The the southern niceties, sometimes not known not so nice. But instead of just being blunt and open, you know, Dennis offended me. Well, you know, he, you know, just he put that distance, you know, a little bit where it softens it a bit, or or we put an apology on the front end but then connect it with the conjunction of but or however. Yeah.

T.J.: 01:21:27

Mhmm. Yeah. I don't think we solved anything, Dennis. But at least we talked about it. I like asking guests about, books and, music and movies that, you're currently watching or reading or have heard or something in the past that you think may help inform other people's faith or encourage other people's Christian faith?

Dennis: 01:22:00

Well, one thing that has helped me here recently is I've gotten to where I'm listening to the Psalms and singing the Psalms. And and believe it you know, and and a lot of people may not know there's artists out there that they'll put the Psalms to music. And the church has been singing the Psalms forever. You know, since, you know, that's why the Psalms were written. And, and that's something that we've lost sight of.

Dennis: 01:22:30

And and I've been telling the people at my church, and there's people at our church that come from a lot of different traditions and backgrounds.

T.J.: 01:22:36

Mhmm.

Dennis: 01:22:37

And and especially a lot of those, you know, they say the Psalm Psalm 23 at a funeral or something, and that's it. You know? But they were for much more than that. And so one thing for me is is I've been listening to the Psalms. There's a guy named Brian Sabe.

Dennis: 01:22:55

He pastors a church out in Ogden, Utah. And he puts on I think he's even got, like, a music degree, but he puts a lot of the songs to music and has different albums, and and that's been beneficial to me. And then listen to other arrangements because, you know, I just bought a hymn book that has, like, I think it's like 400 and something different arrangements for all 100 and 50 Psalms. Mhmm. Yeah.

Dennis: 01:23:20

And some of them are familiar, like, you know, some of them or at least one of them is set to the tune of amazing grace or some might be set to, like, harp the herald angels sing. So it's not something that you're going into blindly a lot of times. Mhmm. But just, you know, singing singing the songs that God meant for us to sing, you know, and and how in Telossians and in other places, you know, speaking to each other with Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. You know, and and when you look at that, it says, hey, that's how we are to communicate with each other in the church is through these ways.

Dennis: 01:24:00

And so that's something that has helped me in in my own faith. And then I I read a lot. And so, right now, I just actually started reading The Holiness of God by RC Sproul. And I read I read a lot of of different people and from, you know, you know, I've read a lot of Adrian Rogers, but I've also read a lot of RC Sproul. I've read some d James Kennedy, and and most of them conservative writers.

Dennis: 01:24:32

But, you know, some are Baptist, some are Presbyterian, some are dispensation, some are covenantal. And, so I read a lot of it, but those have helped me a lot a lot. But then also gotten into, looking more into the Puritans. You know, they I feel like they get a bad rap a lot of times with, the witch trials and things. And, you know, not to to say that was okay, but some of their writings, and how they spoke of God, how they spoke of Christ, and how they spoke of faith, and and then even the things that they had to sacrifice, you know, this you know, some of the the first European settlers here were Puritans looking for freedom of religion.

Dennis: 01:25:25

But then you look at some that was that were in that group that, you know, people that were burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. You know, and it's just, those kind of things are very humbling. I actually just bought a book yesterday that it it chronicles 4 4 missionaries. So, Robert Mary McShane is one of them, and I've gone blank now. I don't know who the other 3 were.

Dennis: 01:26:05

But just, you know, I also bought a a biography on Jonathan Edwards. And looking at these men of faith and people of faith that had come before us, it's very humbling to me. You know, I read of John Calvin not too long ago that he preached every morning in Geneva. And and I'm and I'm sitting here thinking, I was like, man, me doing 3 services a week, people think that's a lot. Mhmm.

Dennis: 01:26:36

You know? You know, I I was reading, and and and it might have been Calvin in Geneva or it might have been Whitfield in in England. But one of them is talking about at 5:30 in the morning, the townspeople would be walking towards the chapel with their torches, you know, ready to hear somebody preach. And and sometimes it'd be just like a devotion, but start their day with assembling over the teaching of the word of God. And and I sit here and I'm thinking, okay.

Dennis: 01:27:07

How can I implement something like that here? You know, I I can say, hey. I'll be at the church 6 o'clock in the morning if anybody will stop by. You know? But looking at their dedication And and I look at some of those folks and and what they you know, I'm 43 now, and I still consider myself relatively young.

Dennis: 01:27:32

But when you look at, like, Calvin wrote a lot of the institutes of the Christian religion, like, he was like 28. And I'm just sitting here thinking, man, what have I done? You know? And, you know, and and seeing things like they would preach every morning and and and and and looking at Calvin, he's known for his expository preaching, and and I attempt to be an expositor. You know, and then, seeing people like Charles Spurgeon and and the things that, you know, you read his sermons, and it it takes just to read one of his sermons, and I'm a fast reader.

Dennis: 01:28:12

It takes me, like, 45 minutes to get through it, but he would hold people's attention for that long, and he's considered the prince of preachers. And and I'm like, how can I get people to pay attention for 15 minutes? You know, but just looking at some of these people and, you know, just in the past, and and there's too many to name. You know, you get you know, I mentioned Calvin and alluded to Wycliffe and, looking at some of the Puritans. You know, Richard Baxter is, he he wrote a book called the reformed pastor that I read a few months ago that helped me immensely, but it also shamed me immensely, because, you know, we look at our society, we're and we alluded to it in my own life, but we're just so stinking busy.

Dennis: 01:29:03

And you look at these people, and they were truly, you know, truly dedicated to the gospel. I think it was, I heard a quote by DL Moody not too long ago. It said, you know, what can one man do if he's completely given over to the Holy Spirit? And he said, I wanna be that man. Mhmm.

Dennis: 01:29:24

And and so that's, looking at those people, like I said, looking back at at those from, like, around the reformation and even before, and then get to more contemporary with Martin Moody, who is a little more recent, or people like Jim Elliot and, you know, are are you one of the first Christian biographies I read was by a missionary named John Patton that was on the island of New Herberty's amongst some cannibals. Mhmm. You know? Buried some of his family members and had to guard the grave to keep them from digging her up, but yet he was preaching the gospel to him. You know, so, looking at what people have given up and and gaining motivation from that.

Dennis: 01:30:16

And and I I actually had to think about this too. I mean, I don't wanna idolize them too much, but I have to look at the reason they were doing what they were doing. Mhmm. And that's because of the Lord Jesus Christ. And so I've gotten into reading those biographies, whether it be people that was prominent in the reformation or the Puritan.

Dennis: 01:30:38

You know, those, I tell people is like some of these quotes that come out from, you know, whether it's John Bunyan or, Thomas Brooks or John Owen or Richard Baxter or Charles Spurgeon. I'm like, I just wish I could think like that and talk like that. And, you know, because you you see all I see all these quotes from Charles Spurgeon all the time that, you know, I was like, I I wish I could've put that to words. I wish I could've said it that way or John Owen or or so many others. And and there's a podcast I listened to that Stephen Lawson does, and he's talking about, many people in the faith.

Dennis: 01:31:17

And I I can't remember the name of the the podcast right off hand. But, he talks about people like Calvin or Whitfield and or John Owen and talks about their life and what they did. And it's, very inspiring, and not so much from them, but just the Lord that they serve and and and what they were able to do. Because you can go back to the the, the passage in John, you know, they I think they went to Philip, and it was the Greeks, and they said, sirs, we would see Jesus. And, you know, I've seen a lot of quotes that, you know, when a pastor finishes a sermon, he shouldn't be wanting them to say, you know, what a great preacher, what a great sermon, but instead, what a great savior.

Dennis: 01:32:03

And, you know, and that we shouldn't just have that aim or go just on a Sunday morning or Sunday night or Wednesday night because, you know, the way we live our life should point people in that direction. And so that's, you know, that's, something that I read a lot of books and and I feel real bad after reading them, to be honest. You know, it's just

T.J.: 01:32:30

Yeah. So you're making make the comparison of the life of another person to your life? Or or

Dennis: 01:32:36

Yeah. It is you know, you see how they were completely given over to the Holy Spirit. They completely given over to the gospel. And and we have so so so much going on today. Mhmm.

Dennis: 01:32:53

We have we have distractions everywhere to our and, you know, granted, you know, 1500 in Geneva, Switzerland, maybe there wasn't those distractions, but here we are. We have them.

T.J.: 01:33:08

Yeah.

Dennis: 01:33:08

And we allow them to take our eyes and our hearts and our minds off the Lord Jesus Christ.

T.J.: 01:33:15

Yeah.

Dennis: 01:33:15

Because when you come down to think of it, and and we kinda talked about this, you know, off camera with the wealth, you know, because how much of the stuff do we really need?

T.J.: 01:33:23

Right. Right.

Dennis: 01:33:25

Yeah. You know, and so, how much of the stuff do we really need to be doing? And, you know, in individually, that's that's something I I I, you know, I feel like the Lord may be dealing with me, me specifically a little bit here. But, you know, it's it's one of those things that, you know, even looking at the ministry, it's it's being it's being lumped into a career a lot of times, so to speak.

T.J.: 01:33:54

Mhmm.

Dennis: 01:33:55

And, you know, where you're negotiating vacation time or pay and this, that, and other. And and I know a lot of ministers, you know, don't do that or feel like they have to do that. And, it's just one of the things that I've never, it's never sat right with me. I I miss church Sunday, for the softball tournament. You know?

Dennis: 01:34:22

Again, this is little we're dealing with me on these things.

T.J.: 01:34:27

Dennis, where are your priorities? Yeah.

Dennis: 01:34:30

But but I pride myself, and that's another problem. But, you know, that's the first Sunday I've not been in there all year, and if nothing changes, that'd be that Sunday I'm not there. Because I feel like I have to be there. And and I know some people like, hey. You need a vacation, you need a break.

Dennis: 01:34:53

But, you know, my it's kinda like the old saying, I'll rest when I'm dead. You know, the calling is greater than that. Now I will say while I was gone, I'm not like some people on vacation. I actually went to church twice on Sunday at 2 different churches. So, I have that going for me.

Dennis: 01:35:16

But now, you know, we just, we don't prioritize. There's so many things that take priority over our faith and our assembling together, so to speak. And I raised my hand first that I've been as guilty of it. And so when I read about people like Calvin or Whitfield that preached every single day, or or I think it was Calvin in Geneva. It was like Sunday through Thursday.

Dennis: 01:35:45

He preached every morning. And I just like, man, I I I sometimes struggle to get 3 together, 1 together, you know.

T.J.: 01:35:56

Alright. Alright. Alright. So cut yourself some slack though because, like, even in the 43 years of life that you have, you know, the stories that we get I'm not saying to dispute them because I don't know how many times Calvin preached per week. But to collapse somebody's entire life into a book, you're only gonna pull out the most memorable, most important stuff.

T.J.: 01:36:26

So, you know, while maybe he preached many times throughout the week, he probably didn't have 2 jobs, 8 children, you know, and and the same responsibilities as you.

Dennis: 01:36:44

Well and and and that's true. But I also look at is these jobs that I have is

T.J.: 01:36:52

I could let me interrupt you. I'm laughing because I can see in your eyes you're about to justify and write me rightly so, but poke holes in my argument. Okay. I interrupted you, please. Go ahead.

Dennis: 01:37:07

No. You know, it it's so like, the jobs that I have. Or or you look at a lot of families or 2 incomes. You know, families are 2 incomes today a lot of times. Now granted, there's some everything is more expensive.

Dennis: 01:37:20

I I get it. But, you know, we also have a lot more toys than other generations have. And so, you know, you look at you look at the job this the secular job that I have, and I alluded to this earlier. I left another job because I said, you know what, I'm gonna trust the Lord to take care of me. And, you know, maybe there may be something else.

Dennis: 01:37:46

You know, sometimes if we would depend upon the Lord to take care of us while we fulfill to the great commission and while we do the things he's called us to do. Now granted, I don't know what's in people's hearts or minds and the call that God has on each one of his life. But just in general, we have so many more distractions that we allow into our life. And that's that's that's the that's the that's the main point because, you know, I think it was off camera. You you made comment, you know, like, how many TVs do we need?

Dennis: 01:38:19

Right? And so, so oftentimes, we plan our lives around when a TV show comes on. Well, now that we've got, you know, on demand stuff, it's like, okay. We get a free and we're gonna sit here and watch hours of the same TV show. But that feature better be able to keep my attention for 30 minutes or I'm out.

Dennis: 01:38:44

Right. And it's it's just, I guess, that's things I think about, I guess.

T.J.: 01:38:52

Dennis, you're in a great time in your life and in a great place to be where you may not be preaching 6 times a week, but you have a vocation where you could read the forefathers and foremothers of the early church up into the contemporary church and prepare and study to proclaim the good news 3 times a week. And those things haven't always been afforded to you and they're not to others. And that's a blessing in and of itself to be able to read these greats and study from them and also learn from their own mistakes, so we don't have to make them.

Dennis: 01:39:39

Oh, yeah. Because you read about their mistakes too, for sure.

T.J.: 01:39:44

Oh, yeah. You have to sell the book, how boring it is to hear. Yeah. Dennis lived a regular life. He didn't cause much trouble.

T.J.: 01:39:53

That would be a boring book. There has to be something in there, scandalous. Dennis, please thank your family tonight for, sharing you so that we could do this podcast. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you for, taking your time away from your family to be able to share your ministry, your calling, and most importantly, your relationship with Jesus Christ.

Dennis: 01:40:24

No problem.

T.J.: 01:40:27

Thank you for joining me on this faith journey on Cumberland Road. Dennis talked about the impact of his Sunday school teacher in his formation. In gratitude to all those who have taught, I close with the words of William Arthur Ward. Mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires. Thanks for listening.