Derek Jacks - It's All Grace
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of god. This is the Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. In this conversation on Cumberland Road, the reverend Derek Jax joins me. Derek is the minister at the Homewood Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Birmingham, Alabama. Derek is also the coordinator for the nationwide youth event called Grace Convocation. In our conversation, Derek shares his call to ministry and how important relationships are and how important we are to one another. In these relationships, the gift of God's grace can be both offered and received. Towards the closing of our conversation, Derek shares his hope for the church and that the church will fully embrace its calling into incarnational ministry and how we can represent Jesus Christ to others in the world. Listen in as Derek and I talk through Zoom for this conversation on the Cumberland Road.
T.J.:How are you?
Derek:I'm doing well, TJ. It's good to talk with you, man.
T.J.:Derek, Jack. Now so is it Jack, singular or plural?
Derek:Plural. Jacks. Plural.
T.J.:Okay. Yeah. So take a couple minutes and tell me tell me where you serve and and what you're doing.
Derek:Well, I'm the pastor at Homewood Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Birmingham, Alabama. Been here since 02/2009 and live in the area. Been living in this area my whole life. So it's kind of a place of great familiarity as well as a place of great affection for me and my family. My wife and I have three beautiful children and have been blessed with them and the life that they have.
Derek:And right now we're just trying to get back up on our feet with worship and Sunday school and all of the life events of the church.
T.J.:So you've grown up in the Birmingham area?
Derek:Oh yes.
T.J.:Oh yeah, I didn't know that.
Derek:Yeah, I'm kind of a Birmingham kid that grew up probably twenty minutes from where the church is here in Birmingham and when I first entered into the ministry, I entered in at my home church which is Rocky Ridge CP. And when we when I became a intern, would, you know, and became came under care of presbytery actually came under care of presbytery here at Homewood Church back in February. So, twenty one years ago, I answered those questions in front of the committee on probationers and stood before Presbytery and answered their questions over in our fellowship hall. So, it's kind of been a fun kind of journey that I began my ministry here under the care of Presbyterian Homewood, but then also being able to serve as the pastor. It's been a a wonderful wonderful opportunity.
T.J.:Now you're also an elected member of the ministry council. Is that correct?
Derek:That is correct.
T.J.:Okay. How long have you been on there?
Derek:Just a couple months. I think my first meeting was this year, I think, beginning of this year maybe. But, yeah, it's it's learning learning about, how we live as Cumberland Presbyterians around each other and learning more about the visions and the goals of the church has been kind of where I've been over the last few months serving and trying to understand and see where I fit into it all. But it's been very rewarding being part of the ministry council. I think it's something that when you're called upon and asked to serve, you go in and you serve and you do the work that's in front of you.
Derek:My hope is that during my time serving with the ministry council that I can help contribute in some way to the leadership and future of this great denomination.
T.J.:Yeah. And for those that don't know, the ministry council isn't just another meeting. There's also opportunities for ministry and to serve and to to work with other Cumberland Presbyterians and to work with some of the denominational staff and learn more about some of the ministries that are happening beyond the local places that we worship and which we serve. So it's pretty interesting.
Derek:Is well, the one thing that we've and we've had one meeting so far, but, you know, one of the the first ministry council meeting we had, there was work groups established, you know kind of talking about different aspects of the church and so that's been a very fruitful time of discussion that I've had with the work group that I'm in that I'm able to talk with other CPs and in a very honest way kind of discuss challenges and hopefully be able to recommend to the ministry council things that could help, you know, get us to where we need to be as a church. And so I think that's very exciting that we all get that opportunity not only to just go to another meeting, as you said, but it's actually work that is tied directly to the mission, purpose and hopes of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
T.J.:Now you're also involved in Grace Convocation. Would you kind of describe what that is and its history and what that looks like in in the last couple years?
Derek:Yeah. Grace Convo is something that is near and dear to my heart. It is an event that was, I don't know when it actually began. I remember going to convocation when I was a teenager in the early 90s. It was not in Gatlinburg, it was at the beach.
Derek:And so, I remember going there and having probably seven, eight other churches and meeting other youth groups and other students from around the Southeast. And then, the current iteration of the Grace Convo is actually, I think dates back to 1998, I believe, is when it got to Gatlinburg at the Park Vista Hotel. And Mark Weldon was the leader or the person that worked on behalf of the Board of Christian Education of Grace Presbytery to put that on. And then after a few years, Aaron McMillan became the director of Convo. And then when Aaron went out to Heights, I believe is when he went out to Heights Cumberland, I remember getting that call from him and he says, hey, I've got something for you to do.
Derek:And he called me at the December of like 02/2006, I think it was. So, calls me at the December 2006 and says, hey, or maybe in 02/2007, I can't remember which year it was, but he called and says, hey, do you think you can do Grace Convo? And I had like six weeks. Wow. And so, the first one I did that was able to direct was either 'seven or 'eight, I can't remember again, it all runs together, but it was something that I was very ill prepared for, but was something that I knew had been part of for many years.
Derek:I again attended when I was a teenager and youth group and then I had been attending since 1999. So, I kind of had a feel and a vision and an understanding of kind of what it is that we do and after that first year, you know, Education Committee at Grace was, you know, they've asked me and I've always served However, I can. It's a it's an event that I hope is something that unifies Cumberland Presbyterians. One of the great things that I've the innovation, I guess innovation that maybe we've had to it was opening it up to beyond Grace Presbytery, you know, that's been a huge goal was to make this an event that welcomed CPs from all over the church to come together and be able to worship together for a weekend and to focus on what matters. And if you were to ask me what the heartbeat of Grace Convo is, it's Christian community.
Derek:It's forming a Christian community of disparate parts and of people from different locations and bringing them together and us, you know, spending a weekend in worship and in study and understanding more about what it is we've been called to do, hopefully in Christian community being the thing that's being built up.
T.J.:And the primary participant is what age group?
Derek:Sixth grade through twelfth grade.
T.J.:Okay.
Derek:It's kind of where we've been, but we have college. You kids that graduate out of high school and then they become counselors themselves and end up chaperoning and then there's even quite a few adults that attend as chaperones who attended when they were in high school. Know, it's wild.
T.J.:And Grace Convo is typically in January of each year.
Derek:Yeah. Up in Gatlinburg, Tennessee. Yeah.
T.J.:And so 2022, you're making plans for Grace Convo?
Derek:We are. We we with COVID, we were unable to do Convo this year. We did a We put together curriculum and encouraged youth groups to use it and made it available for youth groups to use, which is still available by the way, if people needed it. But yes, 2022 is we're making plans. I'm talking with worship leader ideas and as far as getting a speaker, you know, working on that.
Derek:So there should be some information about the '22 event that will be available sometime in August.
T.J.:Okay. Okay. Alright. I knew you were involved in it and there may be some folks who are listening that don't know what Grace Convocation is, Grace Convo, and I knew this was your opportunity to give a good plug for it.
Derek:Yeah. We've it it's it is one of those things that every year I learn something new to see youth groups. Mean, we've had the last few years, we've had about 38 to 40 Cumberland churches from around the denomination attend and it's just a wonderful time of worship and to see one thing that I've really grown to love is seeing the youth ministers because our churches have wonderful youth pastors, dedicated youth pastors who have been pouring into the lives of their students and it kind of helps me remember when I was a youth pastor to kind of see some of the groups and to see their interactions, but to see youth leaders and youth workers, you know, with their students, praying with them, having fun with them and just sharing life together is such a blessing to be able to be part of and that's kind of what we hope for and aim for is this Christian community through Grace Convo, and it's it's been something that has blessed me and hopefully been a blessing to the church.
T.J.:Well, Derek, we kind of covered some of the things that you're involved in and where you serve and minister council that you're on. Let's talk about a meaningful experience that you've had with God, and that that can be an early encounter or can be something as recent as today or yesterday, but share with me a meaningful experience.
Derek:The one that always sticks out and stands out in my mind was, the birth of of our daughter, Cindy, my wife Cindy and our daughter Ava. Up until that time, before she was born, I had a question in my mind, you know, that was how could God, you know, love me? And what does that love mean? You know, I am not a perfect person. No, none of us are.
Derek:And then there's those times where you just you you can't get over yourself sometimes, right? The voice in your own head and you know, so there was that question of how can God love me? And that question went away when I saw my daughter for the first time after she was born. I don't have that question anymore and I actually, you know, I'm pretty convinced that the love of God is something real and how does God love someone like me? It was answered when I laid eyes on my daughter and it was reaffirmed when I laid eyes on my son and then when I laid eyes for the first time on our third child, our other son.
Derek:God's love is there. He just loves. There's no rhyme to it. There's no reason to it. It's just there.
Derek:Just as I was looking upon these screaming dirty babies who are gonna keep me up at night for the next few months, if not years. I just loved them, you know. And so that experience is something that I've held on to, to be able to know that regardless of who I am, where I am, what I am, the love of God is real and that Romans eight passage that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus is so very important to me and it is something that I thank God for every day, especially when I look at my family, look upon my kids and my wife and then as I look out at others, know, to see that that love that exists between myself and my family, it exists between God and his children and his family.
T.J.:Yeah. Being a parent shows that there are different expressions of love.
Derek:Yeah.
T.J.:You know? And and I I hear you that, yeah, it can really rattle you, but also, man, just open up those floodgates of, oh, I thought I knew what love was to receive it and to give it. Now I'm finding brand new avenues Yeah. Of giving and receiving love. It's really, really fascinating.
T.J.:It's not limited to parenting, but, I mean, it is an aspect that really can open up open up your your your eyes. And and the desire to not only just share it with these these little dirty screaming things, but being able to share it with others as well. You know, there's like, okay. I am capable of this, and I'm capable of this because of this love that God has for me. It's pretty, pretty fascinating and humbling as well.
Derek:It is. It is.
T.J.:So knowing that that meaningful experience with your first child and subsequent, how has that shaped your faith journey, and how has that shaped your your ministry?
Derek:I I think, one of the things I say and I remind myself of, I even have it on my email signature is the phrase it's all grace. That experience with seeing my daughters and my sons, it was something that it really made me think back about how important relationships are and how important we are to one another. I grew up, my grandfather took me out my grandfather and uncle took me out with them on their job sites, construction sites. They were drywall guys and so I learned the trade of being someone who works with drywall. And I'd been doing that since I was seven, but the biggest lesson that I learned out on those job sites was how to look at individuals, how to look at other human beings, right?
Derek:On those job sites were very talented men and women but they were men and women with pretty large baggage. Some of them had been dropped out of school and some of them had served time for crimes. Some of them were addicts. Some of them were just not hireable in other jobs, but that experience of looking upon my children made me go back and think back about all of those other individuals who impacted my life. And regardless of who those people were or what they had done, they still had value.
Derek:And a lot of them were again very talented and very bright people but they had been, you know, they would get looked down upon in society because they were, you know, they had things against them. And I think those two experiences have shaped me to be able to, when I look at people, when I look into the eyes of people on a Sunday morning or during the week when I'm at the church, it is to look into their eyes and see who God sees. See this child that has been created in God's image and regardless of what they've done or who they are, there's a dignity that should be afforded to them and a grace that should be kind of shared with them. So, when I think about what those experiences have done for me and shaped me in ministry is I hope that it's made me be someone who is pro human, know someone who loves being around other people who seeks out grace when dealing with people and to try to remind people and show people grace in situations and not only just show them by my interaction with them, but also to point them to the reason why grace is such an important gift that we have and that it coming from God that it being part of God's gift to us and Jesus as being this opportunity for new life, rebirth.
Derek:So yeah, I think that's where I would would say where this journey of of again seeing those different parts of my life. That's where they have led me has been to hopefully a greater appreciation to help care for others.
T.J.:Derek, how do we express and articulate grace for those who, you know, have not experienced it or or better yet, maybe they've going, okay. What's the angle in terms of grace, but what are you really expecting from me?
Derek:Yeah. And There's always there's always an angle in there.
T.J.:Yeah. I I think it's human nature. Yes. And then for us to go, okay. Well, no.
T.J.:There there's not a return. You know, there's not an expectation. But how do you articulate that to to someone else where that's they may not be expressing it out loud, but it is running in the back of their mind of, like, okay. You're talking about this thing. Sounds pretty intriguing.
T.J.:Sounds pretty interesting. But what's the hook? What's the catch?
Derek:Yeah. What do you want me to do? Or, you know, you know, how yeah. You know, I hope I don't know if this is answering your question or not. How do I articulate that?
Derek:Hopefully, I'm able to articulate the importance of grace by just in an expression of being present with that individual. One of the things that I've really kind of just gravitated toward as a pastor has been an idea of incarnational theology. Like if we're going to talk theology, I want it to be incarnational. I don't really care about any other kind of whatever we want to put on to theology, whatever we want to describe it. If it's not incarnational ministry, I don't really have any interest in it because the incarnation is the appearance of God's grace, right?
Derek:And it's the incarnation that we see that God has not left us nor forsaken us. It's the incarnation where we see that God is eternally present with his people and that idea of presence is so important too because in the Old Testament, when we read through, you know, for me, I see that the ultimate sign of God's blessing among Israel was His presence. It wasn't all of the good things that they thought they were getting or the riches or the power or their king or whatever it was that they whatever we may confuse with blessing. The blessing of God was His presence with His people and Jesus is the ultimate answer and the ultimate sign of God's presence and so we as the people of God, if we're going to understand Jesus, if we are going to follow Him as He has called us to follow Him, I think we embody His grace by being present with people. And so as I think about how do I how do we communicate that?
Derek:I think it's just us being what's the word? Being very intentional about us being present and one another to one another in all seasons of our lives because we know that you know there are times in our lives where things are going to be great and everybody's going to want to be around us when times are great But that ministry of presence, demonstration of God's grace is if not more important, just as important in those times of great need when people are alone. People are have been told over and over again that they'll never amount to anything or that they're just going to be a failure. You know, one of the ways that we can demonstrate god's grace is by just being present with them so that they know just as God has told us that he will never leave us nor forsake us, we as a community of faith embody that not leaving and not forsaking but being present.
T.J.:Yeah, and it's an offering as well, it's not something that I necessarily possess.
Derek:Right.
T.J.:And can, you know, it's just, it's an outpouring at best. And in the best of times, the grace is an outpouring and an offering to another individual. Yeah. And yeah. The presence, being present, there are times that is the only thing that we have to offer, and it may be the best thing as well.
T.J.:No words of wisdom, no fixes, no finger pointing. It may actually just be the presence.
Derek:Yeah. Sometimes it's just, you know, being there with someone and just echoing, you know, whatever their sentiment is, you know. I don't wanna say what was in what what what that word kinda popped into my head, but, I I think we live in a day and time where everybody wants to be right and everybody wants to have the exact right thing to say and it's just not there, know. Those things are not there all the time and most of the time we can sit back and just look across the table at one another or sitting next to one another and just say, I don't know what's going on, but I'm here with you and we'll figure this thing out, know, we'll walk through it together, you know, we don't have to always have something to say, you know. That's another thing that bothers me, I guess that's a different topic, but
T.J.:Or in fear of saying the wrong thing. Yeah. Yeah. It can also so, yeah, there are times where just the physical presence speaks the volumes that words cannot articulate.
Derek:I have I have many times in preparing for funerals and and you know how difficult those can be, but that that those moments before with the family, right before like the visitation, I will often say to the families, I will say before we pray, will tell them, I said now there's going be a whole lot of people that's going to come through these doors and they're gonna come through these doors and some of them are gonna love on you and they're gonna make you feel great. I said, and then there's gonna be others who are gonna come up to you and they're gonna say things that you're gonna be like, why in the world would they say that? And I will tell them, I said, I know you're in your time of grief, but you can show them grace because I'm gonna step up and stand up for them for a minute, they don't know what to say and they know that they want to say something, they want to give comfort, but what comes out of their mouths may be something that is the exact opposite of comfort. I said, do your very best to receive that with grace and to be graceful to them and don't judge them based on that, you know, because this is a hard time for all of us, right?
Derek:Look at their presence before you look at what they say, you know, that's the most important important thing because I've had it said to me, right? I'm sure I've said it to others. I'm sure I've gone into a place like that and said something, somebody's like, man, why would you say that? You know?
T.J.:No. No doubt. I know I have and will again.
Derek:It'll happen. That's the other side of grace, right? It's being honest and humble enough to be able to demonstrate to others the grace of God by saying, hey I'm wrong, you know, there's grace in that too, you know, and our failures, you know, when we, you know, sharing grace with other people isn't just accepting them for who they are and what they've done, it's also being honest about who you are and what you've done, you know, and I know I'm going to disappoint people, God knows I disappoint people, I'm disappointing someone right now, I'm pretty sure, but you know, that's who I am and you know to be honest about that, if I have disappointed someone, I will, you know, if I know about it, heck I'll figure out a way to let them know, but I think that also communicates that grace that we can show that, hey, we don't have it all together and we're people that are you know, grasping at things just like the next person is, and that's another thing that can be hard, is receiving grace from others, right?
T.J.:Yeah, and I think that's a good segue, you know, typically I'll ask a guest, you know, who has had a great impact on your journey of faith? Well, let me rephrase that for our conversation. Who have been some people who have shared grace with you?
Derek:First and foremost is my wife. Cindy is the she is a beacon of grace, and so I thank God for her. Ministerially, Reverend Richard Brown, Dick Brown, who's with Jesus, he was an associate pastor at Rocky Ridge Church as I grew up. He was one of those men of God who he was very quiet, but he was one of those guys that when he spoke, people listened and his entire ministry to me was grace because he was able to look at me when I had, you know, in ministry when, you know, there were situations that, you know, I should have handled better, ministry situations that I should have handled better, you know, he was the one who would come in and correct me, but his correction was always a correction of grace, you know, where he would get on to me. And you know, I was lectured once or twice by him just because of issues of pride or arrogance that I was dealing with, but after that moment of correction, he was also the one to put his arm around me and pray and say, but I'm here with you and would oftentimes recount a time in his own life where he made the same mistake or something like it, know, and was then able to say, I'm hard on this because, you know, this is what happened with me.
Derek:And so, he was the one that I will always remember and think of as a person who understood God's grace. He understood God's grace because he had experienced God's grace and that experience was real and up until the day that he died, that was what his life was about, you know. I know that after he had retired from ministry, he didn't really retire from ministry, right? He just went to be he worked at Walmart for the last several years of his life, and he served as a chaplain there at Walmart, you know, in the pharmacy department. So he would work the cash register, but he was an employee chaplain at Walmart where he would he had his own group of teenagers and adults that he would minister to just through their their times, and it was just he never would say that he retired from ministry.
Derek:He just moved from the church to Walmart.
T.J.:So. Isn't it nice to have people in our lives that hold us accountable, but are also our greatest supporters and cheerleaders and guides and companions along the way.
Derek:Yeah. It's one of the things that has got you know, I think a lot about those those friendships that I have with people that are so beneficial. They're those relationships. They're the ones that people can be honest and say, hey, you really messed up on that. This is, know, then but then they're not like, but so you've messed up and I'm never gonna talk to you again, you know, it never happens.
Derek:It's just people who say you're better than that and you know, just pick yourself up, dust off, Mhmm. Let's hit at it again. You know? Yeah. It's so great.
T.J.:Yeah. And doing it in private settings as opposed in front of, like, a multitude of people.
Derek:Yeah. No one's ever corrected their behavior with by that Facebook blast, have they? Well
T.J.:Derek, where do you see God working in your life today?
Derek:Where God has been working in my life today, and this has been today as in the last several months has been in patients, right? I'm not the only pastor who has probably felt the absolute torture of pandemic, of not being able to do the ministry things that we do and having those interactions that we've so had with one another. And, I've wanted to quickly get back to the way things were. And thankfully, the Lord has placed me in a place here at Homewood where we have elders that are very wise to where we'll say, you know, in those session meetings where we'll be like, hey, when do we want to get everything going again? And they're like, a minute.
Derek:You know, we're not ready to get everything going again. You We still have x, y, and z happening in the world. And, you know, I've needed those prompts, and I've needed those those, I guess, traffic lights in in life. And and so part of where I've I think God has been working with me is in the this idea of allowing allowing things to be done. To not be the one that's dictating what has to be done or what's gonna constitute a successful adventure, whatever.
Derek:It's basically this idea that God has been working for me to be a bit more reflective and and to allow time to do what God is having time do. So, I guess practically what that looks like is in some ways living in the moment and not looking for as we had talked about earlier before we when we were talking about, you know, destinations, you know, earlier TJ, you and I were talking about destinations and how we always long to get to the destination. Yeah. But it's the trip from point A to the destination where we see memorable things. And I think stopping during this time and taking stock of what is happening now, looking for the end to hurry up and get here, but to be guided and molded and shaped by the things that we are having to address in the church related to reopening after a pandemic and you know, what does that church then look like?
Derek:What are the activities that we're gonna be doing? What are the ministries that we're gonna be participating in? You know, actually what going through the journey to the destination is is kind of where I would say where I've been and where in our conversation this morning, TJ, where you have kind of I've seen God at work just in hearing you talk about those times in your lives where you've been having to kind of pull back yourself and just take stock of, hey, this is where the meaningful events are happening. It's in the
T.J.:Yeah, that focus of, you know, where where our eyes are only on the place of arrival and the destination and refuse to the temptation to to refuse to look at the surroundings in the current moment. And and, yeah, having people in our lives being able to kinda slow you down because there's that temptation of only looking at the place of arrival and the destination. There's also the temptation of, you had alluded to, like, being the dictator, taking control. Mhmm. You know, as a church leaders of being able to okay.
T.J.:Well, I have the answers or I have a general idea where this needs to go. Okay. So we're gonna arrange things here and we're gonna start this here. And being able to pull back a little bit and go and wait. There are other voices here who are probably even more knowledgeable than than we are.
T.J.:And being able to hear that and go, wow. I didn't even consider that because I was too focused on the destination, reopening the church or accomplishing this task. And we miss we can miss these opportunities if we don't slow down. That's right. And if we don't include others.
T.J.:And sometimes that's hard. That's painful because it it takes that neighbor or that friend to go wait when we're not hardwired to wait. No. We're not.
Derek:We are we're doing everything we can do to avoid waiting.
T.J.:Right. Right.
Derek:Everything, I mean just think that's what, what is the pandemic, one of the things that it's done, I mean you said that, it's so right, because what is the, one of the things that pandemic has done is it has caused us to skip the wait, by like if you're ordering food through the app, can order your food and then get in your car and by the time you get there they bring it to your car, know?
T.J.:Yeah.
Derek:And that's one of those things that's great and convenient, right? Nobody wants to wait to eat, but it's also one of those things that it's one of those little things that then we can start pushing that out on other things other than, you know, things where we don't want to wait for anything at all.
T.J.:Right. And the pandemic, I mean, one thing is you used to be able to order something on Amazon and it would arrive, but it was sometimes that day, but, you know, in a day or so. And now it I mean, it's gonna be five days or maybe next even now in 2021. It's like, wait. I got so used to that instant gratification or near instant gratification.
T.J.:Kinda bent out of shape when it goes away. Yeah. I'm having to retrain my brain of going, okay. This moment is valuable. Don't wish it away.
T.J.:And so, yeah, that's what we were talking talking about earlier before we started recording.
Derek:Yeah. Excellent.
T.J.:So this is a good segue of to the next question is talking about the church that we're a part of. And what hopes do you have for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church presently and in the future?
Derek:Presently, I I would hope that we would be an incarnational church. We have an opportunity around the world to be a light and we are a light around the world. I sit and think about our mission work and nations around this globe. I can't help but rejoice in that to see that we have Cumberland Presbyterians of all nations, of all languages, ethnicities, being present in their situations. And then I sit and think about how we as an American church have kind of allowed the frustrations of our day to actually take over the narrative in their churches.
Derek:When the narrative of our churches should be the gospel and it should be incarnational ministry. It should be a group of people who are able to recognize the voiceless and give them voice. It is a group of people that should be able to recognize those who are bound in slavery to sin, death and proclaim liberty to them. Should be a people who are incarnational and be able to see those around us who are afflicted and give some healing to them. See people who have been mistreated and are alone and give them some relief from their mistreatment.
Derek:I could go on seeing injustice being done in our world and standing for what God has called us to do, which is to be a people who rejoice in the truth and stand for justice and kindness and those mandates that we have from God there. But presently, I would hope that as a church that we could be incarnational in those ways and to not be divisive over issues of political persuasion and to be honest about the discourses that are going on. To just start parroting what our favorite commentators may say on the television, but instead actually read in the scriptures and consider know this is what God has called us to something greater than know this worldly kingdoms that we're fighting for and to just be this group of Jesus people who just as, you know, Jesus' followers after his, you know, resurrection and ascension into heaven, you know, they weren't interested terribly and, you know, confirming, you know, what the governmental leaders of the day were doing. They were and they weren't really interested in what the religious leaders were trying to confer on that day, they were only interested in doing the things that Jesus had called them to do, to preach and to heal and to proclaim the name of Christ.
Derek:So much so that, know, these disciples are told to shut up about it and they're like, yeah, we're not, we're not gonna shut up about this. Y'all do what you're gonna do to us, but we can only speak to what we've seen and what we've seen in Christ is life. So yeah, I think us you know being moved and shaped by the things that God is you know, moving us and shaping us in should be our focus and not these weird and divisive moments of whatever political persuasion we think is that we're wanting to baptize as being Godly. That frustrates me more than anything as a pastor because it actually divides the body of Christ where, you know, where we're called to be, you know, a unified body where we're all needed and we have these powers and principalities that are working their working their hardest to to bring disunity. It's it's frustrating.
T.J.:Yeah. And it can it can divide our attention and our energies from, you know, a focus of of working together, working on a current ministry or a new ministry, and then all of a sudden, my attention is drawn over here because something loud is happening. Or something emotional is happening. I'm like, wait. What what is this?
T.J.:And then I've come to find out I've I've been drawn into something that doesn't even require my attention, and and it sometimes doesn't merit attention.
Derek:Yeah.
T.J.:And and then I tend to refocus, I've seen this time has elapsed, and my energies has been diminished on something that had no meaning.
Derek:Right. Because I think at the end of the day, what we are called to as the as church is we are called to show forth the fact that we are a diverse group, right? And we are being brought together by Christ and that that bringing together by Christ has a purpose and that purpose then takes takes us and it brings us into these squares around ourselves where, you know these relationships that we were talking about earlier that we have that are so important to us to show grace to one another. You know if I'm there as a representative of the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ, then that shapes me and kind of how I'm going to be navigating and deciding what's important, what are we gonna argue about and know, is this, you know, whatever it is that issue that's in front of us, is this really truly worth the result of maybe causing a division to where somebody will turn away. I don't know.
Derek:It's a very frustrating thing for me. I know I'm probably very unclear right now as it relates to that.
T.J.:Well, I think the grace will mold the way that I encounter other people and speak with other people and stand shoulder to shoulder or face to face with other people. Because, you know, with the grace comes the humility Mhmm. And the challenge to be able to listen. And I think a level of curiosity too is this this grace is larger than me. Ain't that pretty fascinating?
T.J.:I want to know more and maybe also want to offer it in areas where it is lacking. Absolutely. About it in areas where it's lacking.
Derek:I would say this TJ, I would challenge every Cumberland Presbyterian and when you're in church on Sunday morning, if you're gathering in church, but the next time you go to church on Sunday morning, Wednesday night, whenever it is. The next time you go to church and you look around the sanctuary, don't look at around that sanctuary and see, you know, well there's Miss May and she came to church today or there's Mr. Todd and he came to church today. I challenge you to look around the sanctuary and see those individuals and say, look who God brought into this place today and about everybody that's there because it's not a club that we've all just decided, hey I'm gonna get up and go to church today, though that's what a lot of us probably think when we do on Sunday mornings. But it is actually this tapestry of faith that God is weaving together and we can look in our sanctuaries on Sunday mornings and we can look across the aisle and look into the pews and though we may disagree with that person that's sitting over in that front pew or we may not like that guy sitting behind us, God has put us together for some reason and God has brought us together purposefully.
Derek:And so, as a person that's in the body of Christ, let's pursue those purposes. Why are we here? And that'll cause enough conversations for us to fill probably a year's worth of Sunday school, right? You know, we can actually sit there and look at each other and say, why are you here and why am I here? And you know, it's those things that, you know, I think I want to challenge the church to do, because I think as you mentioned earlier, and this is a long way around TJ, but the future, I think that's where the future is going to be, you know.
Derek:The future is going to have to be a future where we can have people gathered together and people who don't care for one another, but you know in the world, but here they are in this place called the church and for whatever reason by the grace of God, they get along, you know. To be something greater and a greater testimony that just goes beyond anything that we can think of but instead what it is that God is doing. So, think for us to see ourselves in the greater capacity than just, hey, I've got up and went to church on Sunday morning, but to actually see the the divine finger of God and the hand of God guiding us into those places.
T.J.:Yeah. I I want us to be able to, and I'll narrow it down to to me. I'll just assume I'm the only one that's like this. To be able to look at that neighbor or stranger, and the first thing that runs through my mind is what I don't like about that individual or what makes me angry about that individual. I want that to not be the first thing that runs through my head, but be one of the last things that runs through my head.
T.J.:So are there differences between us as human beings? Thank god there is. No. I like the the differences. I like the creativities that comes along with that and the perspectives that come along with that.
T.J.:But I think the challenge for us is when we look at that neighbor, we look at the stranger, we look at our brother and sister, the first thing that doesn't run through our mind is what we don't like about them. Whether it's their dress or their approach, their tone, or their beliefs.
Derek:Mhmm.
T.J.:Yeah. Those will exist. They do. I'm not saying that we ignore them, but that isn't the first thing that runs through our mind when we make eye contact or have a visual of another person. Mhmm.
T.J.:So that coattailing what your hope for the church is presently and in the future. I I think that's I think that would be important as well. Yeah. Something you said made me think of that.
Derek:Oh, yeah.
T.J.:So, Derek, how can we continue to follow you on your faith journey? I didn't ask you this earlier, but how can we found find out more about Grace Convo? That would be one way. But, yeah, if somebody wanted to reach out to you without giving out too much personal information, but they want to tag along in your faith journey.
Derek:Yeah, our church website would be a place where you could learn about, well, where we have sermons, we have a devotional ministry called Cadence at the Church where we post video devotionals and so you can get those on our website as well as sermons and music as well as learn about Grace Convo too. Have a link on our church page and that's homewoodcpc.org. So that Grace Convo, the curriculum for the 2021 event that we put out is located there and it's available to be downloaded as well as videos. I've stumbled upon a few years ago, thebibleproject.com, which is a wonderful resource for teaching the Bible. And so utilizing some of their resources that's there with that Grace Convo there.
Derek:And then I'm also have a, you know, Facebook and Twitter and all that kind of stuff where I can put out random things think or whatever. Usually it's about baseball or music or family. Those are the things that I'm usually putting out there, but the Twitter is mderekjacks and Facebook's the same. So yeah, those places and again, if you needed to contact me for prayer, there's a there's a CONTACT tab on the Homewood website that you can click and that'll send me an email if you want to have any questions or comments or whatnot.
T.J.:Derek, thank you for sharing.
Derek:Thank you, TJ. And I want to just say very quickly thank you to everything that you're doing in the denomination. It is very much edifying. One of the things that I think we need to be doing more of in our lives is conversation and giving one another grace and the way that we do that is just by simply learning each other's stories and learning how God has been at work and that way we can kind of then start connecting dots between our own lives because, you know, whether we like it or not, the Holy Spirit that God has given us some from, you know, this past Sunday at Pentecost, it's the same Holy Spirit that's been poured out upon all believers. And so even if you're thinking of a Christian that you don't like, and they're a Christian, the spirit that lives in them is the same spirit that lives in you.
Derek:And that's a humbling and challenging thing many times, but thanks be to God, that is the truth. And so the tie that binds us together is God himself. And so I'm glad for and grateful for you and for the things that you do. And we'll continue to be praying for you and your ministry.
T.J.:Well, thank you, Derek. Appreciate that. I I have trouble receiving compliments. And, you know, I always feel awkward, and I don't know how to respond, but I'm trying. Thank you.
Derek:You're very welcome. I have the same thing too.
T.J.:And folks, thanks for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with us on our next journey down Cumberland Road.
