Cumberland Road

T. J.: 00:03

You're listening to The Cumberland Road, and I am your host, TJ Malinoski. The following is a faith journey with reverend Earl Goodwin. He is a man of many talents, a full time floral designer, a minister at the Stevenson Cumberland Presbyterian Church in North Alabama, and the stated clerk of Robert Donnell Presbytery. Earl walks me through his faith journey, and he doesn't shy away from the difficulties of entering and being in the Christian ministry, being bivocational and a cancer survivor, and the struggle to allow others to care for us in times of need. Earl is an interesting person, and he takes me along an interesting journey. So enjoy this faith conversation with Earl Goodwin.

T. J.: 01:10

Well, Earl, let's begin. Tell me about your full time work, what it is that you do.

Earl: 01:17

Full time, I am a floral designer with a florist here in the Birmingham area. So there, even though I work with Flowers, I also do a lot with customer service because I'm much more patient and kinder than some of the people that I work with. And so I do a lot of the funeral consultations, the wedding consultations, and I get the problem customers because I will listen to the little old ladies who did not like the flower arrangement that they got or who need to tell me all about their husband who died 15 years ago and they need flowers for his grave. So, listening is something that got harped on me in seminary and then through the 8 units of CPE listening became something that became really important to me that I'm not always great at, but I do feel is important for the person to feel heard. And so that plays out even in my work in a flower shop.

Earl: 02:21

And that I wanna make sure that everybody who calls in gets heard about what they would like for their flowers to look like or what their occasion is so that I can celebrate with them the happy times even though I really don't know them at all, or that I can be with them and allow them to share in their sad times. And flowers usually are one of the two extremes. It's either a real happy occasion or it's a real sad occasion. We don't get a lot of just because flowers. They're either a birth, a birthday, or death.

Earl: 03:00

Occasionally, you get the the guys who are trying to make good with the girls that they're with, or their wives to make sure that they're happy. But usually, it's a happy occasion that we're doing. So

T. J.: 03:15

Alright. So the flowers can cover the beginning and the end, and occasionally something in the middle.

Earl: 03:22

And all the stuff in the middle. Yes.

T. J.: 03:25

How do people order flowers now? Do you still get phone calls and face to face interaction, or is it online?

Earl: 03:32

Face to face. Some face to face, some online, but we try and get most of our customers to do phone call or face to face. Mhmm. So that we can actually talk them about how to, personalize everything.

T. J.: 03:47

Mhmm.

Earl: 03:48

We like for our stuff not to the same every time. We don't like this is gonna sound bad, but the arrangements that are online, we don't mind doing those, but we like to add our personal touch to it, make it a little bit more personal for the person sending it. So it's all about, just making sure that it actually says what the person is trying to say.

T. J.: 04:18

If you were left on your own to design, you know, an arrangement, what would you choose? What's your favorite?

Earl: 04:30

I like something that's a little bit more elegant, a little bit more stylized I enjoy some of the flowers like my mother hated calla lilies and they're one of my favorites. So I like things that have a different kind of line to them, a different kind of shape to them. Roses are kinda stagnant. They grow kinda straight. They're beautiful.

Earl: 05:01

I still love roses, but they're not my favorite.

T. J.: 05:05

Mhmm.

Earl: 05:06

So and then one of the things that I enjoy are flowers that people don't like, which are carnations, because they associate them with funerals so much. But they come in such a variety of colors now that they are not just that old funeral flower.

T. J.: 05:24

Mhmm.

Earl: 05:25

I miss some of the flowers from my youth because, they don't do the big football moms for homecoming in Alabama anymore. We're not if we were in and they're not near as big as Texas. In fact, homecomings are now like fall formals. So they're now wrist corsages and petite and dainty oil corsages, which are fine. I like those, but there's something about the streamers that that have messages on them that go all the way to the girl's ankles and all that kind of stuff.

T. J.: 05:58

Do you prefer flowers and a flower arrangement with an aroma or those with minimal scent?

Earl: 06:07

Well, scent, I can no longer smell them because I am nose blind to the scent of flowers.

T. J.: 06:13

Oh.

Earl: 06:13

I have no preference. People will come in the flower shop and go, it smells so good in here. And I'll go, I don't smell it anymore. And the people from Domino's came in, they're handing out coupons, trying to get some business, and they're going, oh, it smells so good in here. And I'm going, I don't smell it anymore.

Earl: 06:32

But when I walk into your place, I smell that bread baking and it smells so good. And they go, you know, we don't smell that anymore. So it's just where you work, if there are a lot of aromas, you get to where you don't smell them anymore, and so that's how I am with flowers. I have to get my nose way down in a flower. It's kinda like way up on my nose before I can smell it.

T. J.: 06:56

What how did you get into floral excuse me. How did you get into floral design?

Earl: 07:04

It's just something that was always fun to do. I took a class at at Montevallo where I went to college, that I had some fun electives, and one of them was a hospitality class.

T. J.: 07:18

Okay.

Earl: 07:19

And so, basically, the class was how to throw a tea or a party and how to decorate and do it. And so I did flowers with that and just we had a great time with it. I had friends that were in it. It was an easy class, and so but it was a lot of fun. And so I ended up doing silk flowers for the president's home that year because I could do what she wanted with the silk flowers.

Earl: 07:51

And so it's just always been a fall back on. I could always go back into it no matter what. My my career path through all this has been so different. My resume until the last 20 years has been like every 2 years a different job.

T. J.: 08:13

Which, jobs stand out to you?

Earl: 08:18

Because the hardship and the way it ended, teaching 1st grade was probably my favorite. But it was difficult because I had 21 kids in my classroom 19 of them received chapter 1 chapter 1 or chapter 2, services because they were well below the reading and math level. Mhmm. So, basically, in other classes, the special ed teacher would come in. She would work with 1 or 2 kids.

Earl: 08:52

When she came to my room, she just helped me teach the class because she worked with everybody. It was 19 black, 1 white, 1 Asian. So there was a lot of cross cultural things with it that were tough. And my kids were just they were tough kids. And, 2 of my kids had mothers that were that they were cousins, and their mothers had dated guys that were drug dealers.

Earl: 09:22

And so they'd almost had the kids taken away with them because the boyfriends would, put drugs on the end of needles and just, like, on the end of pins and put it into the kids' feet into their fingers so that the kids would sleep and wouldn't disturb them while they were with their mothers. So one of them was just an angry little girl, and one of them had, she was too high for the what they used to call EMR class, but she was too low for the self contained special ed class, so she fell in the cracks and got no services at all because she was in the cracks. And so she would go into the cloakroom and would cry if I looked at her wrong when I first got there. And if she spelled one word on the spelling test, she was doing well. And by the time I left, she was out with us all day.

Earl: 10:28

She didn't go in the cloakroom to cry. She was getting 5 to 6 words, and that was doing great. So where most teachers had centers and and all that kind of stuff, my day on Friday, Friday was test day. They had a reading test in the morning, and it took all morning, and they had a math test in the afternoon, and it took all afternoon, but it was just the only way that I could actually get it done with the kids, and so to an administrator it doesn't look good she didn't see how they were when I first got there She did not come in to observe my classroom until the very end. And so I say this, and I can't back it up, but it appears that she did not like male teachers, because she did not renew my contract, and she made life miserable for the other man in the building, and he transferred schools the next year and did not talk about why he transferred.

Earl: 11:30

So, I thought that 1 year, it was a rough year. I learned about politics and education. So, it was rough, but I did love it. But I just did not wanna go back into it because of the education because of all the politics with it.

T. J.: 11:46

How did you or how do we love on children that need that support, need that adult attention, need that, encouragement? And how do you do that in an environment that is primarily intended for education?

Earl: 12:07

It was really tough. The majority of my kids came from a kindergarten classroom with the teacher that did not need to be there and they knew drank a lot and did not really teach. And so I could tell my kids that came from which kindergarten class they came from. And so they just needed someone who was gonna love on them and listen to them, and that was difficult because they didn't have that. And the other thing that gets me in trouble is the no touch policy that is so prevalent in a lot of education and no I was not going to lift my kids up in my lap.

Earl: 12:55

But, if I'm sitting there and one of the kids comes up to give me a hug and sits on my knee, I'm not gonna push them out of my lap. If they come up and they put their arms around my waist I'm not going to tell them to stop. They just needed so much attention and I had to find ways to give it to them and still teach them at the same time and that was what was so difficult. They really did just need a lot of time. One of my kids actually got spanked by their mother in front of the classroom.

Earl: 13:31

And, she wasn't a bad kid, a really bad kid, She just needed some direction, but mama's working 3 jobs.

T. J.: 13:40

Mhmm.

Earl: 13:40

So she's at home being taken care of by an older sister. That mama comes and picks her up from after school care takes her home changes clothes goes to her next job while her kids are all taking care of themselves I think I met 2 dads the whole year. And I think that's all the dads that there were. One of mine that stayed back and repeated 1st grade, his mom told me, she said, mister Goodwin, you are the only man who's ever been in his life. He's never had a man in his life.

Earl: 14:22

Mhmm. And she wouldn't send him to summer school because, she couldn't guarantee that he can make it to all the classes because she was in housing because they had been homeless. And if she missed up her job and lost her job, she also lost her house. And so it was easier for her to find somebody to watch her child all day so she could work than it was to make sure her child got to summer school every day during summer. And she told me, she said, mister Goodwin, he got in your class what he should have gotten in kindergarten.

Earl: 14:57

She said, so he's not ready. And I wished I knew where they all were because they're now all in their 30s and so I have no clue where they are but they just they taught me a lot about caring for people in ways that were different than were actually mandated and considered the norm.

T. J.: 15:23

What other careers stick out in your mind since you had this period in your life where you were reinventing, you were changing, you were exploring what Earl Earl was gonna contribute to the world.

Earl: 15:39

I enjoyed my time in educational supply sales because I got to work with teachers and help them do what I couldn't

T. J.: 15:49

do. Mhmm.

Earl: 15:50

So and I did a lot with early childhood, which is one of my passions. I love the little kids. If I had stayed in education, I was gonna go back and get my master's in early childhood education and work in kindergarten because so many of the kids that I worked with didn't have fathers at home, didn't have grandfathers at home. And so I worked with teachers who were working with them. So I was doing all the fun stuff.

Earl: 16:17

I was doing the arts and crafts. I was making the games, and and loved showing all those teachers a different way of doing it. Going, well, okay. We've done it this way, but I looked at this and said, I can do this this way, and just loved it. It was great, but it just school supply and retail sales it's it's changed over the years.

Earl: 16:43

You don't find as many school supply stores as you used to have. Just because online shopping has done a lot to retail. Mhmm. And and I don't like that because one of the things I've always felt is that we get too isolated. We isolate ourselves.

Earl: 17:04

And so, that's one way that retail and shopping was one way you saw people. You got to go see people, you saw them shopping. Shopping was a big deal whether most of my friends have been female through the years, So shopping was always a big thing for them. But even my male friends had things that they like to go shopping for. And so I would go with them for things that I had no interest in at all.

Earl: 17:32

Sure. Let's go car shopping, or you need auto parts. Okay. Sure. I'll go with you.

Earl: 17:38

Let's go.

T. J.: 17:40

There is a fellowship aspect about that. Seeing people that you know and meeting people for the first time, engaging them in conversation, whether it's at the grocery store or Target or, AutoZone and everything in between.

Earl: 17:59

And people make fun of the fellowship aspect of we well, we're always eating, but that to me is so important because especially, like, I look at youth groups now, it used to be that your youth group all went to the same school, or you had 1 or 2 schools. But even when I was in it in seminary, the church that I went to, they weren't. None of them went to the same school. I had, like, 12 kids in youth group and had 10 different schools represented.

T. J.: 18:31

Mhmm.

Earl: 18:31

So, that's why the fellowship aspect of of life is so important is because we don't see everybody every day. We don't we don't all live in the same community. The church I go to here in town when I'm not in in Stevenson, they're from all over as well. They're not all from the same area And so they're represented by a multitude of high schools and communities, and people will drive 35, 45 minutes one way to go to church. Mhmm.

Earl: 19:08

So that's why me driving 2 and a half hours, I just think, okay. This is just part of it.

T. J.: 19:14

Yeah. You're serving the Stevenson church in Stevenson, Alabama, Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and you live in the Birmingham area. So you have this opportunity to commute. I wanted to I know we're jumping around here in your faith journey. How do you utilize that, drive time, back and forth as you're preparing for worship, but also, when you return home, you know, you're kind of leaving your community of faith that you're a part of and that you're serving?

Earl: 19:53

The drive up is final worship prep. My sermon will change a lot in that drive. So I'm listening to podcast. I'm listening to music. Mhmm.

Earl: 20:07

But it's wobbled to change. That's why I've gotten to where I don't do sermon titles anymore. And somebody at the church asked me about that. It's because my sermon can change drastically from Saturday to Sunday. Mhmm.

Earl: 20:21

And that has always been the case. Even when I was driving 15 minutes to alabaster, in that 15 minutes, my sermon could completely change. And I'm walking in during while they're having Sunday school trying to get things on the projector that are being projected on the wall, or doing film clips or pictures that are gonna go with the sermon. So it is with Stevenson, that drive up there is time for me to relisten to a podcast that has said something to me during that week, to rewind it, going back. Can did I actually hear what I thought I heard?

Earl: 21:01

Those sorts of things. How can I blend in 2 or 3 sets of scripture that sometimes don't relate, or how can they relate? So that drive up there, it's a it's a nice drive. It's nice quiet time, which I'm not good at doing. But driving is my quiet time.

Earl: 21:25

The shower is my quiet time. And so that drive allows me a lot of time to reflect on what's going on and what's happening in life. Now on the way back, it's, gearing back to coming back to the reality of, the world as I see it during the week and I have a friend who, Shannon wipes her her time to talk to me And so our conversations are long. So I call Shannon, and we talk in the car and rehash the day. And she tells me about what happened at the church that I'm not able to attend anymore.

Earl: 22:07

And I tell her what happened at my church, and I get geared back to being back into the reality of this is what I have to do all week.

T. J.: 22:15

Yeah. You you were talking about sermon titles. I I don't like doing that either. I feel like that sermon titles titles can be a lot like, comic book covers. You know, you used to used to read comic books as a kid and you'd be excited about it and be like, oh, man, there's all this action and activity.

T. J.: 22:35

And then you flip through the pages and what the cover represented is not what happens in the story. I feel like sermons are a lot of times like that. It'll be something clever or witty and then you listen to the sermon and be like that those two things did not connect at all. And

Earl: 22:53

or or in

T. J.: 22:53

my end, you preach the sermon and be like, yeah, I really missed the mark if this was the theme. So I just quit doing it.

Earl: 23:02

I had one at a church one time, and it's a sermon that I preach over and over again. It's it's one called my last word, and it's about picking one word that is important to me and so I go through the sermon and people who have heard me preach it before know that my word is nothing and and there were 4 points to the sermon and I repeat them at the end and it's I came into this world with nothing I will go out of this world with nothing I did nothing to make God love me, but nothing will make God stop loving me. But one of the members of the congregation read that, and she thought that it was gonna be my last sermon. And so she's she's ultimately, she's she's concerned about why I'm not gonna preach anymore.

T. J.: 23:58

Mhmm.

Earl: 23:58

She's listening to make sure that it's that it's gonna be profound. And, unlike Laura, Laura was in the choir loft, So unlike Laura, usually I saw her at the end on the way out. No. She is out of that choir loft and up the aisle going, you better tell me this is not your last sermon. And I went, no.

Earl: 24:18

It's not my last sermon, but that will be my last word. So if there's anything at my funeral, it has to be around the word nothing. And so even to the point of I have a piece of artwork, it's in my car now, I need to get it back up in the house. That is the letters that spell out the word nothing over and over and over again.

T. J.: 24:41

Mhmm.

Earl: 24:42

Because for her, that was one of the most profound sermons she heard. She even took the recording and gave it to her son who was in seminary. And, and I'm just going sometimes I think the the most profound things I say just don't hit it all, and some of the things I think just aren't profound at all, people just find very moving. So

T. J.: 25:03

Yeah. Yeah. I can When

Earl: 25:05

I find myself quoted in a Sunday school class, I'm thinking, okay. You did okay.

T. J.: 25:10

That's pretty scary to be quoted. Well, I also think it's

Earl: 25:14

Usually, I don't remember where it came from. So I heard someone say one time, and I just have to sit there going, that was me, but I don't say it.

T. J.: 25:23

So you carry artwork around in your vehicle?

Earl: 25:26

Yes. I do. You'd be surprised what's in my vehicle. There's a little bit of everything. You need me to sing?

Earl: 25:33

There's music so I can sing for you.

T. J.: 25:36

Okay.

Earl: 25:37

Right now, there's a big ball of yarn in my car.

T. J.: 25:41

Do you do you rotate your art pieces in your vehicle? Or

Earl: 25:46

No. Not usually. And, usually, that one's hanging up right by the entryway into my house. So but I preach from the the scripture that's related to that, which is Romans 8. And so I was preaching that at Stevenson not too long ago, and I thought I thought, okay.

Earl: 26:05

I'm a take this just in case. And, I didn't use it. I like using props and movie clips and and song clips and that sort of thing that go along with my sermon and at Alabaster I had all the technology to do that when I was there. We don't have that at Stevenson so, I'm still working on finding a way. I want to do a series called The Gospel According to Broadway sometime but I really have to work out all the kinks of how to get the technology in there for that.

Earl: 26:43

And I think that there's enough there that would make it a fun sermon series.

T. J.: 26:49

Do you envision that including, both song and dance?

Earl: 26:56

I would love it if it did. I love Dankton Church. I have the alabaster church in all the years that I have been there, which so that you know the University of Montevallo where I went to school is like 10 minutes from the Alabaster church So I started going there when I was in college. So it has always been considered my second home CP church. My home church, now is no longer.

Earl: 27:31

They moved and the presbytery has since closed the church. So all the things from my childhood are gone. So alabaster would be considered my home c p church. And so I have gone back and forth, in between things. I have been, contemporary worship leader.

Earl: 27:52

I have been associate pastor, so I've done all kinds of things there. Well, one of the things that Darren liked to do as well was put the movie clips and all those sorts of things in there but we've always had girls that danced and so I've always liked doing that and the first one was so long ago I don't even remember Heather Whitestone was Miss America and she did the dance to Via Della Rosa. So one of the girls in the youth group was a big dancer. And so, for Good Friday, we ended the service with that. And at the end of the dance, she ended it with both arms out and her head down and as soon as we were through, I went and touched her back, she dropped her arms and the 2 of us walked out in silence and it was such a moving, more moving than anything I could ever say part of the service.

Earl: 28:57

We did that on Christmas Eve, had dance in the middle of the service as well, and it just is such a beautiful way to add to a service. Music, dance, dramatic reading, all that, to me, has such a big place in the church and we so often overlook it, that not only does it add so much to worship, but it also says to the people who are doing it, you've got a talent, and there are ways of using that to glorify God as well as just it's not just dancing, it's a gift and it can be shared and it can be moving and it can be, life changing.

T. J.: 29:45

Yeah. There I think an underutilized aspect of worship is the the movement of the body. It is has a liturgical message in its own right. And I'm saying this to somebody who does not have any dancing abilities or singing abilities or preaching abilities for that matter. But anyway, I digress.

T. J.: 30:10

But, yeah, it's certainly an underutilized aspect of ways in which we can glorify god. We do with our body movements anyway. We talk about the hands and feet. Why wouldn't that be incorporated in our worship experiences?

Earl: 30:28

Yeah. Oh, most definitely. So that's why, I enjoyed the aspect of being able to project things onto the wall at Alabaster because I could find a clip off of YouTube or TikTok and, it would speak and say things so much better than I ever could.

T. J.: 30:50

Right.

Earl: 30:51

And so

T. J.: 30:52

Yeah. There's a visual

Earl: 30:53

I mean

T. J.: 30:53

There's a visual aspect as well.

Earl: 30:55

Mhmm. And and it definitely kept the people there interactive with the sermon because they never knew what what was gonna be me and what was gonna be something on the wall. For Darren it allowed him to show maps of where it was going or for him to involve a song or clip. There are so many technologically technological aspects to that that add to worship. And I know a lot of churches don't like things being projected on a screen or on a wall, but it does have its place.

Earl: 31:38

For alabaster it put, the words up on the screen. So if they knew the song, they're looking up. Their heads are no longer buried in a book. They're looking up. So if they're singing, they're singing.

Earl: 31:53

If not, they're looking at it. They're seeing the word so they it it just it bring makes them more involved. Mhmm. But it just can't substitute for it. One of the churches here in Birmingham has satellite, churches and they're all on the same time schedule so that the the main preaching is done from the main campus and is piped into all the satellites.

Earl: 32:21

And so that to me is I just can't see it yet. So, I'm not there. Besides, I'm not a megachurch person. I I most of the churches I've been involved with have been smaller churches.

T. J.: 32:38

Mhmm.

Earl: 32:39

Not as small as Stevenson, but they've been smaller churches. Alabaster in its heyday was was considered one of the big churches in the denomination. And I enjoyed that because it gave us opportunities to do things that the smaller church can't do. But I don't wanna be so big that I don't know most everybody who comes in every Sunday.

T. J.: 33:01

Right. Right.

Earl: 33:03

I am I am big on that connection. It's just it's so so important.

T. J.: 33:11

Earl, let's talk about your early childhood and growing up in the church, profession of faith. We'll just see where our conversation goes from there.

Earl: 33:25

I was baptized in a PCUSA church as a as a child, And, we went well, I say USA, it was probably US before the big merger.

T. J.: 33:37

You're dating yourself, Earl.

Earl: 33:38

I know. Well, I'm old. So, but yeah. Oh, please. Dating myself, I remember when Triennium did the big celebration of the merger.

Earl: 33:51

So I was there that year.

T. J.: 33:53

Okay.

Earl: 33:54

So let's state myself. I went to the first triennium. So but I kinda grew up in the church. We didn't go very often, but we we did go. And then, about 10 or 11, we got invited to a different church, which was Eastlake Cumberland Presbyterian Church Mhmm.

Earl: 34:16

And went there. And, I enjoyed it. I was there Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, any night in between. I just, I did enjoy going. We had a youth group that was great.

Earl: 34:32

Was able to sing in that you could sing in the adult choir when you were, like, 12, so I got moved to the adult choir pretty quickly.

T. J.: 34:42

Do you have a knack? Do you have a natural knack for singing?

Earl: 34:46

Yeah. I do. It's something that I enjoy even today. So I sang in the children's choir and I sang in the adult choir and was involved with with all the things during the youth did youth group, all that kind of stuff. So it wasn't a huge church.

Earl: 35:06

The East Lake Church was just, just guess your average Comeward Presbyterian Church.

T. J.: 35:13

I

Earl: 35:13

got to see some of the kids at my high school, but we were one of those youth groups where we had people that went to different different schools, so, youth group activities were very nice and stayed there when I was in college, and, also went to what was then the Elliotsville church, which is now the alabaster church. And, Elliotsville nurtured me as much as my home church did and so, went between the 2 churches and about my sophomore year in college, I felt the call to the ministry and but it wasn't to be the it wasn't preaching ministry. It was to be a ministry of education. Education has always been a thing. And so but I knew that if I was going to get a job that paid very well, I would have to go the ordination route.

Earl: 36:20

That directors of of Christian education just don't get paid well for the most part.

T. J.: 36:26

Right.

Earl: 36:26

Then we're not those people who are, yeah, I've started to say to all those people who are doing that now full time, you have my love and admiration, because I know that it's not for the money. And so, I went through finished my degree which is in Elementary Education and, went to seminary for a semester. I did not have a car. I went 4 years of college without a car.

T. J.: 36:56

How did you get around?

Earl: 36:59

Montevallo was a small town. I mean, it's a small town. So if I need to go to the grocery store, I walked or I've talked to friends. And, if I were to go home for the weekend, there was somebody who would drop me off on their way home and my parents would take the drive into the country on Sunday afternoon and take me back. And it was it was not so far that it was a huge burden, but it was too far for me to commute every day.

T. J.: 37:27

Mhmm.

Earl: 37:27

And it was even bigger problem because I didn't have a car. So I started out seminary without a car as well. Big difference living in Memphis and trying to go to the school without a car as it was at Montevallo.

T. J.: 37:44

So when let me interrupt you. So when you entered into seminary for this semester, you still had in mind the, education route, Christian education route?

Earl: 37:57

Yeah. If I had to do the other, yes, I would, but it was still gonna be education was my primary focus. And so I started seminary, went through that. Had not made too many friends the first couple of weeks and was trying to walk to church to go to what was the Park Avenue Church, which was the closest one to, where I was living because senior housing was not all that on Roberta and Saint Agnes back there. The single male housing was over on McLean, not too far not too far from Union.

Earl: 38:47

So, which was not bad for living because 2 blocks down was a grocery store and big department store and all that kind of stuff. But it was like a mile trek to the seminary. And it was like a 5 mile trek to the to the church. So I didn't make it to church that first Sunday I was up there and told my parents that maybe this wasn't the right thing. And so made an early decision to come home at the end of the semester.

T. J.: 39:17

So you did finish the semester out?

Earl: 39:20

I did finish the semester out. Got to become friends with, Jay Hart Brown and, Terry Hundley and a bunch of other guys. And Jay was the pastoral assistant to Paul Brown at Germantown. And so Jay would take me Jay would pick me up on Sunday morning, take me to Germantown, did everything. Everything was great.

Earl: 39:46

I would have wanted to continue dawn, but my parents said, no. You said you were coming home. So I came home, took a year off, got the car, and went back. And by that time Paul Brown was no longer at Germantown. He was at the seminary, so Jay was no longer at Germantown, but Terry Hundley was at Germantown as a pastoral assistant to William Warren And, when I went back I went back in the middle of winter and the seminary housing was not ready.

Earl: 40:23

So I had I I lived with Eugene and Rosemary Warren for a couple of weeks and that was right as William was interviewing Germantown to come back to Germantown and his family was so wonderful. Eugene and Rosamie were great. The people of Germantown were wonderful. Bob and Connie Bush took me into their family so it was great, and went back to seminary, took on a variety of jobs during seminary, and came home. Now being a single person trying to find a job is difficult.

Earl: 41:08

I don't know if you and Melissa were married before you graduated seminary or not, But if not, then you missed out on the wonderful joys of trying to be a single person looking for a church job. And so, one of the churches even that was interested in me was looking for somebody to do education, but when they found out that I was single, told my mother that they wouldn't be interested, that they were looking for a couple so that there was a wife that the girls could relate to as well as somebody for the guys. And, mom was real quick to go. You know, he never had any trouble with the girls relating with him at his other churches. And she was right.

Earl: 41:54

I didn't. To this day, I'm still wonderful friends with, the girls from my youth group. And so, never been a problem, but I I understand, as doctor Buck so clearly put it, it doesn't matter whether you are or not, when you're single, they're so worried about whether you're going to try and date somebody, all the things of being a pedophile, or being gay, all those sorts of things, always been there. Whether it was an issue or not, it's just always underlying. So it was difficult for me to get a job.

Earl: 42:31

So it was a year after graduation before I was ordained, before I got a job.

T. J.: 42:36

What did you do in the meantime?

Earl: 42:39

I worked retail. Mhmm. And so retail and I substitute taught some. And so it just it was enough to pay the bills, it was enough to get me a car, it was enough to get me going. I was still doing things with the East Lake Church, and then to date myself even more, this was before stores really opened on Sunday.

Earl: 43:08

So here, yes, I'm dating myself again. And they started opening from 1 to 6 on Sunday, and I was gonna have to work some. And there was no way to work to go to church and work with the way things were with the church then, with the East Lake Church that was slowly becoming the Advent Church. But the Elliottsville church had an early worship service at 8:30. So I could go to worship down there, maybe even go to Sunday school, and then head to work, and be at work on time.

T. J.: 43:44

Okay. So

Earl: 43:44

that's when I started going there. And that became my full time church, not only because of work, but because the expectations of the church I grew up in were really different. All the people my age were now married, except for me, or they were seriously dating and so everything, every activity that they did for people my age were for couples and I wouldn't get invited. And Barry Anderson was my pastor and Barry and I were talking one time and I said well Barry I didn't get invited to that and Barry goes well I'll invite you to it and I went it's not your place to invite me and I wouldn't feel comfortable with not being invited by the host And so that's when I said, you know, maybe it's time for me to change churches. And so at Alabaster, it was just a mishmash of different ages and all that going on so it was always I could find something to do.

Earl: 45:00

So alabaster became home and so even when I was ordained it was a mixing of the 2 congregations. The ordination was held at the Eastlake Church because that allowed them to be part of it, but the alabaster choir was came and sang and the pastors from the Eastlake Church that I grew up with were all alive then. So, like, Pete Hegwood came from his church and, Ken Davis came out of retirement, and Barry was there, and Terry Maynard was there. So all the people I called pastor were part of my ordination service. So it was really it was a wonderful day.

Earl: 45:49

It allowed the people from Alabaster had no trouble coming up to East Lake for that service for me. The people from East Lake that wouldn't have gone to Alabaster were able to be there for me, so it was really a nice day. Mhmm. It was a a nice mix of 2 very different congregations, so it was really good. So and then from there Alabaster became home and so did a lot of things there.

Earl: 46:18

And when I got my first church, they sent me off, and I went to Fayetteville, and I was at Fayetteville for a while. And, one of the things that came out of one of my years of train well, one of my trienniums was that, some kids from this church came up and said, our church is looking it was a PCUSA church. We're looking for a youth director. Can we put your name in? Sure.

Earl: 46:46

Why not? What's gonna come of it? Mhmm. Well, my name did come up, and I made it to telephone interviews, which was like the 3rd step in their process. Mhmm.

Earl: 46:58

So their next step was an in, wasn't a face to face interview and all this. And it was a huge church and a huge program. But the Fayetteville church found out I was looking and said, we hope you will get this resolved soon so that we'll know whether you're with us or not. And in my young impetuous self, I just went, okay. Well, we'll just say the end of the year.

Earl: 47:24

That's it. And so I put in my resignation, I turned it in months early and said the end of the year, that's it. And, it really was for the best in some ways because, the next person that they hired was the pastor's wife which they could hire at less pay than they did me, and then they had to terminate the job completely, within the next 9 months to a year. Because it just it was just one of those things. It wasn't extra.

Earl: 48:00

So I went to the Columbia Tennessee church, and I worked with David McGregor. And David was a good pastor but we pastor very differently. Even the way we worked was very different. David worked in complete silence, and I had music going almost all the time. So I would end up going to they had just built a family life center.

Earl: 48:27

And that's why they thought they needed an associate was they have the Stemly Life Center, they have this youth group, they need somebody to run all this.

T. J.: 48:34

Mhmm.

Earl: 48:35

So, I did what I could do, but that summer, I was traveling a lot with my duties. And so it was like camp, home, camp, home, CPYC, home, general assembly, home. And it didn't go away over well with a couple of families in the church. And so there was a session meeting where they brought me that they called the session meeting I was there nobody told me what it was for and when I looked at my close friends on the session none of them would look at me that night. And so when I found out I was the topic of the session meeting I knew that that there was nothing that I could do and so after they talked, they said is there anything you'd like to say and I said yeah before you fire me, I quit And they said, okay.

Earl: 49:30

And then I said, the contract was a 60 day contract and one of the famous that was not happy said we'll pay you for your 60 days we'll make it immediate and I went okay. Vacation Bible School started the very next night All the stuff was in my office, so some people had things to say, but somebody else went, no. I bet everything's in his office, and it was, and they went in there and found it. The sad thing about all that is, I left in August and that November, I was back up there for the death of one of my kids. And I was very thankful that Amy and I had we'd had some trouble that summer, and we had gotten it worked out.

Earl: 50:19

And I don't know what all I don't think anybody knew what all was going on, but, Amy committed suicide. And so that was really rough. And going back into that air that church that was hostile was not easy, But I knew that those were still my kids, and that they needed me, and I needed them. And so that just taught me that there are gonna be times where I'm a go back to where I'm not always welcome, but where I'm needed. And I'm not always wanted where I'm needed.

Earl: 51:03

So, and Amy's death still today has such a profound effect on me that when people talk about suicide prevention, it's one it's a big deal for me, so it affected me greatly.

T. J.: 51:24

Earl, we were talking off mic that, you had a you had cancer at a certain stage in your life. Where does that fit into the timeline of your ministry? And what was that like going through that process?

Earl: 51:44

It was just over 5 years ago. In fact, well, Monday, this past Monday, was the 5 year anniversary of my surgery that was the final step of my cancer process. I had bladder cancer. I had an invasive tumor that was trying to eat its way out of my bladder and was causing a lot of bleeding. And so with that, you go through chemo to kinda kill everything, and then you have to have your bladder removed so that to make sure that it doesn't come back coming out at all.

Earl: 52:24

So I went in because I was having too many what they thought was urinary tract infections and ended up being the cancer diagnosis, which I got on Valentine's Day, which was an Ash Wednesday. I really the only way they knew anything was going on was one of the ladies from church was having some tests done, and I told her that I would keep her in my prayers, but that I wouldn't be able to be with her because I was having tests done that same day. And so when I went in for my diagnosis, my friend Elizabeth, who is absolutely wonderful, went through everything with me, said, you know, you don't have to tell them tonight. And I said, yeah, I do because they're gonna know. And so Ash Wednesday took on a whole different meaning that night and started chemo, that was February, started chemo the end of March, and was set to preach at some midweek Linton services.

Earl: 53:39

And I thought, okay. My prayer that year was, I'm gonna start this, but God, I just would like to celebrate Easter this year. And so, the effects of chemo weren't that bad at first, so I made it through to Easter. The side effects from chemo were were both emotional and physical. I could not hug, which we talked about off mic.

Earl: 54:10

They told me that I couldn't hug people, which I hug more than I shake hands. That's just me. And so that was really difficult. And I got to where I

T. J.: 54:21

could correlation between the hugging and the chemo?

Earl: 54:26

Chemo takes your immune system down to nothing. Okay. And so hugging puts you in such a close proximity to somebody who might be sick.

T. J.: 54:35

Got it.

Earl: 54:36

And they don't want you to get sick. So, no more hugging, even handshakes were not really fist bumps became the thing. And this was all pre COVID, so fist bumps were the big thing because shaking hands were another way of carrying diseases. So my white count was constantly under surveillance because they did not want me to get sick. I also got to where I could not tell you anything nice, wonderful, good that was happening in my life without crying about it.

Earl: 55:12

I cried a lot during chemo. I cried because people were nice to me. I cried because I couldn't hug people. I think I scared a friend of mine because I called him and just wailed for 20 minutes about how horrible this all was. And I think he called me every day during chemo and during my treatment just to make sure I was okay.

T. J.: 55:40

That's a pretty good friend.

Earl: 55:42

Well and so when he goes through his rough stuff, we still call each other. We're still best of friends. David was my roommate in college, And so we have remained friends for the year since we were in college. Actually, I can say it. It's been 45 years since we were freshmen in college.

T. J.: 56:04

Wow.

Earl: 56:04

So, yeah. So but I I freaked him out, and I called him because the other people that I could wail to that would listen, that I felt comfortable wailing to were not available that day. And that's also where I had to struggle with learning how to let people care for me. I had spent years as a caregiver. In the last years of her life, my mother was completely paralyzed, and I was the only one who was taking care of her.

Earl: 56:40

My other family members either emotionally couldn't handle taking care of mom or physically So that was me. That was my my goal. So that was me, that was my goal. I gave up my social life, I gave up all kinds of things for my mother, I don't regret any of it, but it meant that I understood what it was like to give care for somebody. So it means that I don't like receiving care.

Earl: 57:11

I don't like for people to take care of me. It was the first time in my adult life I've been in the hospital at all other than to visit other people. So it's it's a struggle. It's still a struggle and that I have friends who want to do things for me and I don't want to ask them to do that or I don't want to let them do that. And even though I got told long ago and I hear it and I think it and I tell it to other people, I have a tendency to stop people from blessing me because I don't know.

Earl: 57:49

I just I have trouble with that. So I have trouble with people throwing parties for me. I don't like birthday parties. I definitely don't like surprise parties, housewarmings, and things like that. They're all a struggle for me because that's allowing somebody to do something for me that I should be doing for myself,

T. J.: 58:10

I guess. I understand that.

Earl: 58:12

And so so cancer really, really, taught me that I had to rely on other people. I had a friend who took a week out of his life. Luckily, he worked remotely from home And so, he came down and spent a week with me just to make sure that I ate and that I exercised and I did all the things that I was supposed to do. I didn't. I fought it, but and I let people bring me meals, and they did and they were wonderful but you know when you're it's just you or it's just you and one other person, most people don't know how to cook for that.

Earl: 58:56

And so I was freezing food and eating it later, or, unfortunately having to throw some of it away because I had no appetite. It started my weight loss journey. My weight loss journey with my mother, I lost weight without trying. And, so, from my highest to where I am now, I've lost over £50. In fact closer to 60 to 70 without trying, without dieting, without anything else.

Earl: 59:24

So it's just a matter of I took care of my mother and that took a lot of it off. Cancer took a lot of it off. I just never have gone back to it And, one of the things that they were constantly on me in chem in chemo about was I would lose weight the 2 weeks that I was on chemo, but luckily for them I would gain it back the week I was off chemo because it was 2 weeks of chemo and off a week. So, I learned how to let people make meals for me, take care of me, drive me back and forth. I don't like being chauffeured too often.

Earl: 01:00:02

I only have a few friends that I will that I will ride with. I don't know. I know. I am strange. I am weird.

Earl: 01:00:10

I accept it, and and and I work on it all the time. And so but I still struggle with that, of letting people do for me what I normally will do for other people. I mean, in the middle of of all this career change and stuff, I did 2 years of c p e, 8 units. Most people look at me going, 8 units, are you are you nuts? But I did that because caring for other people is just a big part of me.

T. J.: 01:00:41

Mhmm.

Earl: 01:00:43

It it's just who I am. So being a chaplain gave me a chance to care for other people, but cancer gave me a chance to be cared for and even in the 5 years since all this I still have that's still my struggle is to let people care for me the way I care for other people and that's difficult. I think that that's a difficult struggle for a lot of clergy because they're they are so used to caring for everybody else that when they get to the point to where they have something difficult, they really don't know how to let other people in.

T. J.: 01:01:27

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Earl: 01:01:29

Because you're taught not to create friendships within your congregation because you'll be seen as being partial to 1 group or one one family, and that's not a good thing. And so, you end up struggling alone, in everything that you do. One of the podcasts that I listen to lately, they've been talking about mental health issues for clergy and how it's 2 pastors who do it, and that the one thing that gets them through all their struggles is that they know that they have each other and that at least once a week they're going to talk to each other and that they can talk to each other about whatever they want to talk about and can struggle with anything but if you're in it by yourself then it's then it's difficult and that's been me I may not be an only child but my brother and I are so different that I he grew up and was out of the house before I was really growing up and so sometimes I feel like an only child and so I have a tendency to do things by myself. So that struggle to be a part of community and let community care for you is a big struggle.

Earl: 01:02:49

It's huge.

T. J.: 01:02:50

Yeah. I I understand. And and to, receive care or receive kindness, I and I'm not encouraging anybody to do this. I almost feel like I would do better if you were yelling at me. I can receive that better than, words of appreciation.

T. J.: 01:03:11

That's not an invitation, but it just seems like, oh, I can handle that better. I just feel weirded out when somebody expresses their appreciation or an act of kindness or or or, bring attention of something that maybe I I said or did and don't even remember it. I'd almost rather you have have you yell at me and tell me what you don't like about me. I was like, oh, okay. I can handle that better than than the appreciation.

T. J.: 01:03:40

And then you pack on top of that the how isolating ministry can be. Those aren't good concoctions to have in in places of leadership and certainly in the community of faith that we're that we're part of and called the lead in.

Earl: 01:03:59

Mhmm. That's why I also have a tendency to look for the caregivers in the congregation so that they that I can support them because they often are the Lone Rangers that are doing things and even within the church. I have a wonderful friend and I'm not gonna name her but she'll know, if she hears this she'll know exactly who she is, that takes all her jobs and she does such a wonderful job, but she will never tell you that she does a wonderful job because she cannot hear the compliments, she cannot hear what she's doing well all she can hear is I need to be doing more, I need to be doing more, I need to be doing more. And whether it's a job at the church or taking care of a family. With the Alabaster congregation, one of the big events for them was when one of the families experienced their adult child having a traumatic brain injury and so Kyle was in an automobile accident and was not sure what was gonna happen.

Earl: 01:05:19

And so Kyle still has a lot of lingering of threats from the traumatic brain injury which means his family are his caregivers and so I watch Bob and Lynn and I encourage Bob and Lynn all the time and they are absolutely wonderful with their child and it's hard to say child they're absolutely wonderful with their son and Kyle is just such a loving adult, but he may not remember that he met you 30 minutes from now. But he's still gonna hug you and love on you no matter what. So I just I watch them and I love watching them because they are so loving and caring with their child who is now so loving and caring of other people. So that it's just it's just a wonderful thing. So I have a tendency to watch for the caregivers in the congregation and in life.

Earl: 01:06:30

I mean that's just that's my big thing is to support those who are supporting other people. So I always go out of my way in a hospital to thank nurses, to thank the people who come in and do what they do. When my mother was in rehab, I always made sure that I knew who the CNAs were, and they always had my appreciation so that they would call me and let me know what was going on with my mother. So, yeah, that's it's it's a big struggle.

T. J.: 01:07:06

Earl, looking over the course of your life in these trials, in these ups and downs with health and career celebrations and struggles. Where was God in the midst of all of this for you?

Earl: 01:07:26

Oh, God was right there in the middle of it. It it it amazes me that all those things that sound like struggles really were so they were just easy transitions. One job would end and I may be out of a job for a little bit, but I didn't have to do a lot of job hunting. Another job just came up, or somebody would see me at one job going, I like the way you do this. We need somebody here at this job doing this.

Earl: 01:07:59

How about that? I got a part time job because the way I directed a wedding at a church one time. So God's always been there. I mean, it is just so many little things that just have added up to make things good wherever I am. So even in the midst of of all the things that are hard, I always knew that God was there.

Earl: 01:08:30

So, struggling with mom's health, struggling with my health, there was never any doubt at all that God was right in the middle of it, that God would struggle with me, God would rejoice with me, and, God would chastise me through other people when I was doing the stupid things, and not receiving the care that I needed to receive and all those sorts of things. So, it's always there's always been something or someone that I just look at go, okay. This is how God's in the middle of this with me. That, that god's not going to fix everything for me, and that I have to learn to be okay with where I am and who I am and that's also a big struggle. I don't make the money that I'd like to make, I don't have the home I would like to have, I don't get to go on the trips that I have to have, but, I have enough and I have a home.

Earl: 01:09:39

And I know that I have friends who have told me that if tomorrow everything was wiped out, I did not have a place to live, I did not have a job. That they would I would have a place to live. I have one that would tell me he would create for me a job. They are there with me in every struggle so I know that I am beyond blessed with ways of handling all the ups and downs. And so when I struggle, they'll be there to struggle with me.

Earl: 01:10:16

And so, I can't ever look back on a time in my life where I thought, well, God was not there with me. God's always been there with me, always. And so and I look at people and I go, you know, if God can love me and take care of me, God's gonna do that for everybody else if they will just let God. And so that's why I also like to work with community organizations that are helping people And my pastoral heroes are people who are working with them. I tell the people in Stevenson that I have 2 leases in my life that are my heroes.

Earl: 01:11:04

And, they both work with the homeless. Between Sacred Sparks Ministry in Nashville and Room in the Inn in Memphis, I am always, always amazed at what those two leases do. And the love and compassion that they have for other people who struggle and who just need somebody to love and care for them. They are, they are my pastoral heroes. And and I'll and I look at other pastors and I think okay what makes them so special And usually, it is the way they care for their congregation, the way that they care for people.

Earl: 01:11:46

They may not be the most academically gifted people In fact, usually those people are not the ones that are my big heroes. It's the ones that are down to Earth, who get, get down and dirty with people who need help, who are willing to listen to those who aren't listened to, who aren't so concerned with what their status looks like, and can do the everyday stuff with everyday people.

T. J.: 01:12:19

Yeah. Humble because

Earl: 01:12:22

there are just pastors that that just aren't really people people. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. They just they have trouble, doing everyday things like going to dinner or going to a movie without trying to make it a big theological experience or a big congregational event or something like that. You know, sometimes people like you just to go to the movie just to go to the movie, or to come to dinner just to come to dinner.

Earl: 01:12:58

Beer and hymns is is just enjoying being with each other and singing hymns that everybody knows. I have no trouble with all those things. I love those things. So, it's just being down to earth and caring just ultimately makes everything for me.

T. J.: 01:13:20

Mhmm. Yeah.

Earl: 01:13:22

So that's why even the organist the biggest organization that I choose to help here in Birmingham, used to be dealing with AIDS patients because it's Birmingham AIDS Outreach. Now they're dealing with all kinds of things. They have expanded what their work. I I started to say they've expanded their ministry. They've expanded their work.

Earl: 01:13:45

It is their ministry Yeah. To where they're now working with a food pantry with people who are who are homeless. They have the Magic City Acceptance Center, which is for teens who are not accepted in in normal society, so they have a place to be accepted. They have a place to do their laundry and to stop in and eat, and, they may have a clinic for people who don't feel comfortable going to a regular doctor. They have a a legal program to help people who may not be able to afford an attorney.

Earl: 01:14:21

It is all those things that are caring for the marginalized people here in Birmingham, and that is where I think ministry is. And I'm not always good at doing it, but I will do my best to support the people that are. Mhmm.

T. J.: 01:14:38

Earl, we've talked a great deal about the local church and the impact it has had on you and your faith and your calling in the ministry. Looking at the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in which you're a part of and which you serve, what do you think that we're doing really well, and what do you think we as Cumberland Presbyterian are missing? I like that exhale. Where do I

Earl: 01:15:10

begin, TJ? Well, and, TJ, you know me well enough to know that there are issues that are big hot button issues in the denomination now and where I stand. And I'm not standing with the majority, and I realize that.

T. J.: 01:15:29

Well, let's start with I

Earl: 01:15:30

think the covenant

T. J.: 01:15:32

Let's start with The

Earl: 01:15:33

covenant residue church is real good at accept being accepting and and being different, knowing that my church is gonna be different than your church was gonna be different than another church. Mhmm. That's all wonderful. I love being accepting. I don't I like the fact that the church has the local autonomy to elect the leaders that they feel are leaders, and that presbytery has the ability to ordain who they think are leaders.

Earl: 01:16:08

And, I've always appreciated that because it allows it to be we see something in you that's special. And so that's why I'd like for our denomination to continue that whosoever will mentality, but right now that's the battle that I see is that there are some who want it to be you have to believe like I believe in order to be one of us, and I just don't see that. That's why for my Presbytery, I'm very happy with the Presbyterian in because we were probably the 1st non geographic Presbytery in that alabaster is a little island in the middle of 1 Presbytery that belongs to another. Mhmm. And so, geographically, I live in the bounds of 1 presbytery but serve in another because of the way it's set up.

Earl: 01:17:20

I appreciate that. I appreciate the the presbytery that I left because they serve their churches well in the way that they serve them. It did not serve me well. It did not serve the church that I was working with well, and so I found a place that would. That's what I really like about our denomination is that you can find a place somewhere, somehow.

Earl: 01:17:51

Mhmm.

T. J.: 01:17:52

There's a Cumberland

Earl: 01:17:53

So the challenge

T. J.: 01:17:54

Yeah. I have said this all along. There's a, Cumberland Presbyterian Church just for you. It may not be in your county, may not be in your state, may not be in your country, but there is certainly a congregation that is hardwired just for you. And it's our role to help others find that special community of faith that has the wonderful name, Cumberland Presbyterian, on it.

Earl: 01:18:29

Yeah. I agree completely. That's why I think that welcoming Cumberland Presbyterians are misunderstood in that they're not wanting everybody to be accepting they just wanna be able to be accepting where they are and not have to worry about somebody saying you can't do that. That's that's our struggle right now is finding that church that is come on presbyterian and for whoever's looking and knowing that this church is gonna do it different than that church and that's okay that we're not all alike And that, I think, is our struggle, is that we're not all alike. And how do we work together and still not be all alike?

T. J.: 01:19:22

Mhmm. So back to my back to my question. So we you've mentioned the struggle. In the midst of the struggles of a local church and as a denomination, what do you think is missing in terms of helping and working through the struggles that come with just a body of believers?

Earl: 01:19:50

Honestly, I think that what was lacking at the last GA was a little bit of kindness and a little bit of empathy. I think there are too many people that are too quick to want to be right that they're not willing to listen to any side that's different than theirs And they're not willing to say you may be right for the people that you work with even though it's not right for me. And that difficulty made a lot of what happened at this last GA feel very harsh. And it was like there was a silence in the room after every decision that was just such a heaviness for me that made this general assembly so difficult. My my friends that had things that they wanted did not get everything that they wanted.

Earl: 01:21:12

And I didn't always feel heard overall. That's why I was very appreciative for the committee I was on because I never once felt like they weren't listening to me even though often I was the minority opinion. So I felt like, in the big picture, the minority opinion is not being heard and it's being misconstrued. And I think that happens too often whether it's in the church or it's in government. I just think we can't get caught up with I'm right and you're wrong to the point to where we can't listen to the other side and say, you know, that's a good point I hadn't thought about.

Earl: 01:22:10

Or we can't get so caught up in factions within the denomination or even within the world that we can't, that we don't automatically go, well that's bad because they brought it up and we didn't bring it up, or we brought this up so I have to think that it's right even though it may not be. So I really will always be for a little kindness and a little empathy and a lot of listening. And I didn't feel that, and I still don't in some ways feel that that's happening, it's all a matter of we have to win, and if we don't win, we're gonna go somewhere else. I don't think we're a strong enough denomination for that to happen, but my fear is that that's what is going to happen. That if certain things don't happen the way certain people want, then they're just gonna want to pull out.

Earl: 01:23:28

I watched with sadness at everything that happened with The United Methodist Church and I have a feeling that that's what's going to happen to us and it's not going to be good no matter what. I can't look at it and say, if those people who disagree with me just pull out and are gone, then it's gonna make life good because it's not.

T. J.: 01:23:52

So what could what could Earl do to address the pieces that are missing in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?

Earl: 01:24:11

For me personally, it's to be more visible as a person who wants to be empathetic. To not withdraw when the struggle is there even though it is so very tiring. It means that I have to create my network that will lift me up and support me and listen to me when I am tired, when I am drained, when I feel like it's just not worth the struggle. So in the midst of all of it I have to continue saying okay I have to keep doing this I can't just give up and go I'll go somewhere else and that that's easy and I do have the mechanism for doing that because I do have friends that are in other denominations that said you can come over here But that's the easy way out. And that's the only people struggling that I love, that I don't want them to to struggle.

Earl: 01:25:24

So I have to remain in here even when I feel like I'm in the smallest of minorities and when I feel like people are not understanding. And I have to continue to push my points even when people don't want to hear them just because I know that I'm speaking for other people who don't have a voice at all. So when I'm at general assembly or presbytery or even at my local church I have to continue to say these people don't feel heard and this is what they need for me to say. Even if that makes me look like I am a Mike Hogg, if it makes me look like a bad guy, if it makes me argue with a lot of people, that's okay because I'm not just speaking for me, I'm speaking for other people who don't have a voice.

T. J.: 01:26:26

To scroll out a little bit, you had mentioned about leaning on others, which is what you've been talking about one of your own faith challenges of allowing others to care for you. That, I guess, that extends into many aspects of your life, Earl.

Earl: 01:26:51

Mhmm.

T. J.: 01:26:53

One thing that we haven't touched on, that is a more recent, event in your life is you are the stated clerk of Robert Donald Presbytery. How long have you been doing that? Officially,

Earl: 01:27:12

1 year.

T. J.: 01:27:13

Okay.

Earl: 01:27:15

A little bit more when Frances Dawson had her stroke and was no longer able to do it. There were a couple of things that led me into the job. Number the biggest thing it the 2 2 big things. Number 1, I knew Frances would trust me to do it while she was recovering.

T. J.: 01:27:37

And that's a short list.

Earl: 01:27:38

And that she would yes. I knew that that was a short list of people that she would trust to do it. Mhmm. And a short list of people that she would train to do it. And so, it's also a short list of people that would have the patience to go through it because it was finding things in Francis's house and finding things on Francis's computer and finding things just in general.

Earl: 01:28:05

Did you go, Frances, what about this? And she would go, I don't remember. And so she would go, here's the here's one of the bags that I took to Presbyterian. I'd go, okay. I'm gonna take this home with me

T. J.: 01:28:19

Mhmm.

Earl: 01:28:19

So that I can go through it. The other thing was I knew that there was nobody else jumping at doing this job. And so, but it's a job that has to be done and there were things that had to get done and things that I'm still learning that I have to get done.

T. J.: 01:28:40

Mhmm. So,

Earl: 01:28:42

it is a it is fun, but it's also challenging to make sure that everything that needs to be get done gets done. I have a lot of support from the people in my presbytery, The executive committee, the moderator, the vice moderator, both the the ones that just retired and the ones that took over are great at helping me out with lots of things, but it is a trying job. To all those steady clerks out there, you have my admiration, you have my, sympathy and empathy because it is not an easy job. There is a lot that's required of it that's behind the scenes that people just sometimes don't even know and Frances Dawson was a wonderful state clerk and Frances had her way and I'm now learning why Frances did things the way Frances did them because they got done. And so being stated Clark, it's it's not the prestige or anything like that.

Earl: 01:29:51

It's just the fact that somebody had to do this job, and I was the one that I knew Francis would let do it. And so, we're still learning. They're still waiting on things at denominational headquarters because I haven't gotten them finished for them. There are things that are supposed to have been done 6 months ago that I'm just now doing.

T. J.: 01:30:17

Mhmm.

Earl: 01:30:18

And so but we're also in the midst of looking at how presbytery, works. In January, we're doing a workshop trying to revision the work of presbytery for the boards and agencies and the people that are doing the work to say, this is what we should be doing, but we're not doing it because this is what we've always done. Mhmm. Or looking at the fact that we don't have a camping program anymore because we don't have enough kids. So what are we gonna do for those churches that do have kids to get them in something that they can do?

Earl: 01:30:58

Mhmm. How are we going to adjust the way that we've always done things by focusing on young adults, young families, and kids to now focusing on older adults and making sure that they're staying active in their church and in the presbytery and just in life. So it's it's it's that struggle to change and to accept change and go with change. That is part of the reason why being state at Clark is is a deal is because it's just change is a constant and COVID changed the way we had to do things and, distant changes the way we have to do things and age changes the way we have to do things.

T. J.: 01:31:44

That's so true.

Earl: 01:31:45

And I'm not as young as I used to be.

T. J.: 01:31:48

That's so true.

Earl: 01:31:49

And sometimes I have to remind myself that I'm not as young as I used to be. So

T. J.: 01:31:55

Well, and you will always be compared, or at least for a long while, to the way that, the former stated clerk Francis Dawson used to do it. Just like, ministers often face when they follow, the previous minister, those comparisons are often there. Sometimes in a sense of relief and sometimes in a sense of mourning just because each and every one of us is a bit different.

Earl: 01:32:25

Yes. Thank goodness.

T. J.: 01:32:29

Yes.

Earl: 01:32:30

I love the fact that we're all different. I I just I do. I it's just you can't go into a church and do things the way they they've always done them and done them before. It's just part of it.

T. J.: 01:32:42

How boring the life, on Earth would be if everybody was like TJ?

Earl: 01:32:49

Or Earl. There's some things that would make it a whole lot better, but some things just wouldn't be the same.

T. J.: 01:32:56

That's true. Earl, thank you so much. This is the most time I have spent with you and I'm glad to get to know you a little bit better. And blessings to you. Oh, I used that word.

T. J.: 01:33:12

But blessings to you in your ministry at Stevenson, Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and as the state of clerk of Robert Donald Presbytery.

Earl: 01:33:24

Well, thank you. I hope you have enough to do the podcast with all the ramblings that I've done. So

T. J.: 01:33:30

Alright. Thank you, Earl.

Earl: 01:33:32

Thanks.

T. J.: 01:33:35

Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road. Check out the other guests who have gone before Earl. In closing, let me share with you from the confession of faith for Cumberland Presbyterian's section 6.22. The church has a responsibility to minister to the needs of persons in every crisis, including physical and emotional illness, economic distress, natural disasters, and accidents due to carelessness and death.