Cumberland Road

T.J.: 00:03

You're listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. Ellen Hudson Clark is a minister, a former church starter, and a chaplain resident at Saint Thomas Hospital in Nashville. A lifelong Cumberland Presbyterian, Ellen takes me on a journey of exploration, of faith questions, and talks about the power of shame that has led her to the vocation of chaplaincy. This is a raw, open, transparent conversation of her journey and I hope to have more like this in the future. A long format conversation allows for a deeper dialogue and a better way to understand one another. Conversations like these give and reveal more of who we are and also who we would like to become. I also hope to encourage others to be themselves, share uninterrupted, and in the end, become fellow sojourners in this awesome journey of faith. And now, here is my conversation with Ellen Hudson Clark.

T.J.: 01:26

Ellen, since I've known you, you've had very interesting and multiple jobs. And let's start with the life of a Uber driver. What is that like? I've been on the passenger end, but never as a driver.

Ellen: 01:44

Yes. That was a very interesting it was a short lived, part of my career journey. Let it be known that the many jobs is because I'm a hustler, not because I'm a quitter. I just want to I wanna declare that. I'm naming that.

Ellen: 01:57

I'm claiming that. I'm a hustler. I'm not a quitter. I just do what I gotta do. And the summer after I graduated from seminary, I had just been fired for the first time in my life.

Ellen: 02:12

Oh. I had been fired from a job at a designer boutique. Think, like, Double Wear's Prada vibe.

T.J.: 02:21

Okay.

Ellen: 02:23

And I was just coming from a really intense kind of corporate atmosphere in cosmetics and went to another cosmetics thing that I thought would be more chill because it's a family owned business and, has a, I don't know, long time employees. Anyway, very regular work hours off on Sundays, And I thought it was going to be great. And in 2 weeks, I was fired because I was not their vibe. In fact, I stopped to take lunch during the day, so that wasn't very cool for them. And so I was I was let go.

Ellen: 02:59

They said, you know, you're very sweet, but it's just not a good fit. And I was very upset. Listen. I was devastated, but I was about to graduate from seminary and then go to Ireland, with, with a with a class at MTS for, you know, a week and a half. And and I thought it it was an awkward time to try to find a new job.

Ellen: 03:24

And so whenever I came back from Ireland, I was like, what am I gonna do? What what am I gonna do? And, so I had to just start putting together a bunch of different things. And Uber driving was one of them. And it was honestly it was honestly a really great experience, and there were a lot of people that were very concerned for me.

Ellen: 03:46

And while I appreciate everyone's concern, it was kind of liberating. And I always did really ignorantly push the boundaries of being alone as a people loving, I don't wanna say naive, but trusting Mhmm. Female, you know, in a city that's notable for its crime. But I I really enjoyed it. I really whenever I started to pick up different people more and more, it occurred to me that it's just as much of a risk for the person getting in my car as it is for me having different people get in my car.

T.J.: 04:30

That's true. You're at the mercy of the driver. You could take the long way around or off to some nefarious and dark place.

Ellen: 04:41

Absolutely. I could be a total creep.

T.J.: 04:43

Mhmm.

Ellen: 04:44

You know? And it's just whoever picks up the ride first. You you're not, like, swiping through like it's a dating app or anything like that. Well, I don't really know. I kinda miss that window, but that's alright.

Ellen: 04:55

But you you know, it just says there's a pickup that's this far away from you. Do you wanna take it or not? And the more you reject rides, the less you you get anyway. The more you accept them, the more you're gonna be selected to go do the rides. So I was all about it.

Ellen: 05:18

So I did. I did everything I could. That's my narcoleptic, overworked self could possibly do. I picked up as many as could. And, there was this one time that it was maybe 11 PM.

Ellen: 05:33

I don't know. And I got a call. I got a ping to pick up somebody at a a bus depot at a bus station.

T.J.: 05:46

Mhmm.

Ellen: 05:46

And I was really anxious about that. I was really very anxious about the general location at that time of night.

T.J.: 05:54

Mhmm.

Ellen: 05:56

And the name of the person was, like, a very ambiguous name. Like, I don't remember what it was, but it was, like, Pat. Like, I don't know what I I don't know who this person might be. You never know who the person might be, but I don't know. Something about being a female, you feel more comforted if you think it's a female getting in your car.

Ellen: 06:17

Right?

T.J.: 06:17

Mhmm.

Ellen: 06:18

Especially late at night by yourself. So, anyway, I anxiously am like, is this stupid? Is this stupid? I'm nervous. I'm anxious.

Ellen: 06:26

I'm scared. And then getting text from that person that's like, hey. Are you almost here? What does your car look like? And all these things.

Ellen: 06:33

And those are normal questions to ask, but I'm getting anxious about it. And, also, I'm driving. So, anyway, I get there, and it is this woman who was scared to death to be at a bus station and was scared to death to call an Uber, but that was, like, her only option at that time of night. And I'm so relieved to find that I was a relatively normal female that she could feel safe with because I was nervous and she was nervous. And we kind of just found each other, like, with this sigh of relief, this collective sigh of relief that, okay.

Ellen: 07:05

We did it, and we're both safe.

T.J.: 07:07

Yeah. You did something together. Yeah. And you yeah. Maybe

Ellen: 07:10

that shared trauma. Yeah. Yeah.

T.J.: 07:12

I was about to say your your shared experience. Mhmm. The reason I bring up the the Uber driver, one, I we've never talked about it before, but I would think that it would lend you the opportunity to meet really cool and interesting people and have wonderful conversations, unique conversations that are random and could be shallow, could be deep. What was your experience?

Ellen: 07:41

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I definitely met a variety of really interesting people. They were not all Beale Street pickups.

Ellen: 07:51

I'm grateful for that because I only had so many barf bags. But, they were I, you know, had a lot of people that were just trying to get to the airport or you know? So there's people traveling from all over the place, a lot of out of towners, a lot of, people that were traveling, or were staying in Memphis for work

T.J.: 08:13

Mhmm.

Ellen: 08:13

And, traveling via Uber if they needed to get around anywhere. So I met people from from a lot of different contexts doing a lot of different things, and that's something that I really just loved in general about life and about interacting as a human being. And being a human being is talking to other human beings that are different than myself about their experiences and their perspectives and, you know, just getting getting, their stories.

T.J.: 08:41

Yeah. You have the natural ability to be able to engage other people, strangers, in conversation. And so but you've also worked in fields that lend itself that way, like, a more recent vocation that you've had is working in the furniture business.

Ellen: 09:03

Yeah. With the furniture business, I strongly felt that that was ministry in in many different ways. And and the way that I was able to make a meaning out of that, in a time when I felt really unsure about my direction in ministry in particular, I was very connected with people. And what I found with the furniture business is that when people are looking to change something in their homes, there's change that's happening. Right?

Ellen: 09:39

There's there's a bigger change that's happening there. So it could be that, you know, your kids are leaving the nest, and you're gonna turn their bedroom into a guest room. And you are gonna take all the football decals off the wall and turn it into, like, a real adult bedroom. Or or it could be that, you're just getting married, and you're you're getting your starter home or, finally moving in together. And, you know, the bachelor pad glove seat with a console in the middle of the 2 seats is not appropriate anymore.

Ellen: 10:15

So it it could be that, your spouse just died, and you're trying to figure out how you can exist in a space that you built together, without them. It could be that, your parents are to a point where they're not safe to live independently, and they're they're moving in with you, and it's kind of come full circle. There's so many different circumstances in which we change our spaces. And sometimes it's because we, you know, want it to look fresh and updated and trendy. And most of the time, though, I find that it's people starting new jobs or new careers or new relationships or just a different dynamic, and I get to hear those stories.

Ellen: 11:02

And I loved that. I loved being able to just kinda dig in almost. You know? Because naturally, people are afraid of salespeople. And, I while I would often find that frustrating, I also am very hesitant of salespeople.

Ellen: 11:23

I immediately I'm fine. Thank you. Oh, I'm I'm just looking. You know, it you're just looking. Yeah.

Ellen: 11:31

No. You're not. You're coming to the furniture store. You're not just looking. You want a couch.

Ellen: 11:36

And maybe that couch isn't today, and maybe it's next month, but it's okay. So I don't know. I really was able to really empathize with people and their feelings and also just find ways to be able to engage with people, to uncover their actual need and their actual concern. And there were times even that maybe my managers would become frustrated with my sales, or lack thereof techniques because I would sometimes find after, like, I uncover some stuff that, you know, getting a new bedroom suite for that room isn't gonna make it easier for you to go in there. Mhmm.

Ellen: 12:19

If you still can't open the door because your mom died in there, I think there's some deeper work that needs to be done there. I don't think that making 17 trips to be undecided still about the bedroom seat that you want is gonna make this grief go away. And, you know, it I would encourage them to not make that change yet. And I was able to make some really good relationships and really beautiful connections, and, I loved it.

T.J.: 12:50

Yeah. I've never thought of the retail, specifically furniture business. You're catching people in the change of the seasons of their life. Mhmm. You know, either on the tail end of an old season or, you know, the front end of a new season.

T.J.: 13:09

And being able to acquire into the life of, oh and it's a very natural question. Oh, well, you know, why are you looking for, you know, a new couch or a new chair? You know, what is the context? That really opens up the the door for opportunity for faith conversations? Did you have a lot of them?

Ellen: 13:34

Probably. The I think the hard thing for me is that every conversation for me is a faith conversation. And so and I don't mean that in a way as in, like, I I just bring up scripture or talk about Jesus in the way that he has transformed my soul in every conversation, but I've I just I'm a very relational person. And that is a spiritual gift that I have, and I'm practicing saying good things about myself. So that is a good thing about myself.

Ellen: 14:10

I am relational. And, for me, just connecting with another human being is spiritual and is a reflection of my faith. So I did have a lot of faith oriented conversations and built several faith oriented relationships through that. When people naturally ask, oh, are you from here? Because most of the people coming in are maybe not from the Nashville area.

Ellen: 14:43

Mhmm. Oftentimes, I'll kinda get to know what brings you here. And, you know, ultimately, they wanna know, am I from here? And, it's always, like, kind of, because everybody that's asking me that question is typically from California or Michigan or New York. And I'm from Tennessee.

Ellen: 15:06

I have lived in Tennessee my entire life. Never lived in another state, though I've lived in, like, 9 counties. I've yeah. I it's been wild, but I've never lived in another state. And, so, no, I'm not from Nashville, but, you know, what bring what brought you here?

Ellen: 15:25

And what brought me here was ministry. Was working on, that new church development project that you and I worked on in Williamson County. So, whenever I get into that and say, oh, yeah. I'm an ordained minister. I would get a variety of of reactions.

Ellen: 15:46

And some some were great, some were not, but it did it always impacted the conversation. I guess that's all I can say about that.

T.J.: 15:57

Yeah. I bet. Mhmm. Well, let's go back to some earlier years. Let's talk about your profession of faith.

T.J.: 16:09

Do you remember a time in your life where you felt, maybe for the first time, or at least the most deeply connected to God where you were in a relationship with God. You might not have called it a profession of faith. You might not have called it a relationship with God. It was in retrospect that you recognized the love of God through question. I feel

Ellen: 16:33

like in particular, question. I feel like in particular, I can say that my experiences at camp at Camp Clark Williamson, in middle school were very formative for me. However, I do feel that it's important to say that I didn't have, like, this big, oh, I'm saved moment. Mhmm. And, I've been in church my whole life, and my aunt started taking me to the Gleeson Cumberland Presbyterian Church when I was, like, 3 years old.

Ellen: 17:16

My parents are in the middle of a divorce, and we had been going to, a Baptist church in in the city of Gleeson, the big city of Gleeson, one of the many Baptist churches. And, you know, that's where we had been attending. And, you know, during the awkward time of who's gonna go, who doesn't wanna be seen, you know, that's just the reality of those kind of things, especially in small towns. My aunt wanted to ensure that my brother and I were going to church, my older brother, Jacob. And, she was at Bethel College at the time, and her roommate, was from Gleeson also.

Ellen: 17:58

And she, went to Gleeson CP Church, and that's how we ended up there. So she started taking us there. We were very small. So I grew up in that church. And later flash forward to 2017, I was ordained in that church.

T.J.: 18:16

Okay.

Ellen: 18:17

So I've I've been part of the Cumberland Presbyterian faith as long as I've had memories. I was not baptized as an infant as many children are or can be. My parents chose to allow my brother and I the opportunity to, make our own proclamation of faith

T.J.: 18:45

Mhmm.

Ellen: 18:45

Whenever that time became right for us. And I respect that. But growing up, it was actually an interesting thing in the south in a really, really small town. I remember being on the playground. Maybe I was in the 2nd grade ish, 7 years old, maybe, 7, 8.

Ellen: 19:07

And I remember a girl saying, you haven't been saved? I mean, you haven't been baptized. You haven't been baptized? Like, they were appalled. Like, I must be a pagan.

Ellen: 19:24

I'm just kidding. They didn't know what that was. But, anyway

T.J.: 19:28

They also didn't get to see, for those who are listening, you also didn't get to see the face that Ellen made as she was making that. It was a face of repulsion. Just for context.

Ellen: 19:40

Yes. I have a very expressive face. So use your imaginations. But, you know, I remember the shame that I felt

T.J.: 19:50

Mhmm.

Ellen: 19:51

And how other I felt and how inadequate I felt. And then, you know, as a small child starting to wonder, what does that mean? What does that mean? I mean, I go to church, and I believe in God, and I believe in Jesus, and I know the same prayers that you do. I know the same Bible stories that you do, and I go to all the vacation bible schools and I I don't what does that what does that mean?

Ellen: 20:20

And I started asking these questions as a as a kid.

T.J.: 20:24

Okay. So the distinction in elementary school, at least in that scenario, was they were baptized, you were not, and they knew it, and there therefore, you were different.

Ellen: 20:41

Yeah.

T.J.: 20:42

Okay.

Ellen: 20:43

And not only different, but wrong.

T.J.: 20:46

Yeah. But I interrupted you. So there was good coming out of that because it inspired you to ask questions, and then I talked over you. So you began asking questions.

Ellen: 20:56

Yeah. I did start to ask questions. I started to ask questions a lot about deeper things that, I think people began to get frustrated with.

T.J.: 21:07

Who did you go to for these these deep questions?

Ellen: 21:10

I would often ask my mom a lot of questions. And, you know, my nanny, my grandmother, my dad's mom, my nanny was so, vital in our upbringing. Mhmm. As our divorced parents worked their jobs and split custody and all all the things that come with that, nanny's house nanny and granddaddy's house was, like, neutral base. Mhmm.

Ellen: 21:42

So we spent a lot of time there. She picked us up from school. She often took us to school. We were there watching, you know, Sailor Moon after school and Thundercats. Like, we were using our imaginations and playing outside.

Ellen: 21:59

I don't know if people know what that is anymore, but, we were really we were really taken in for much of the week by, my dad's parents. And, I remember asking my nanny, I was, I don't know, maybe 10, said, if God created the universe, what form with God or how in what way could God exist if it wasn't created yet? Like like, what was God that God could create something from nothing in in nothing. Like, I don't get it. And then she said, that's a good question for your uncle Doug.

Ellen: 22:47

My uncle Doug, is ordained in the, PCUSA faith and married my aunt Jill, who took us to church, the CP church for the first time. And, so my uncle Doug, who was a pastor at that time, I called him and asked the same question. And he said, well, Ellen, I think that's where our faith comes in. And I was so dissatisfied with that answer.

T.J.: 23:20

Oh, I was about to ask, were these answers from your loved ones satisfactory?

Ellen: 23:25

Absolutely not. And I love them. I love my family very much, and I understand the impossibility of that question. Yeah. Yeah.

Ellen: 23:34

It's an impossible question. But as a kid, especially, and on throughout life, I continued to ask questions people would become frustrated with because they had never thought about it and didn't have an adequate answer for me. So, I yeah. I'm I've asked a lot of questions.

T.J.: 23:55

So this quest, Ellen, that you've been on of questions and seeking answers for them, how have they strengthened your faith and not discouraged it?

Ellen: 24:10

Well, I would I would say that it's done both.

T.J.: 24:13

Mhmm.

Ellen: 24:14

It has, at times, discouraged it. And that discouraged me believing in God, but in the traditions of the church. There have at times been I have a lot of feelings. I'll let me start. I have a lot of feelings.

Ellen: 24:38

I've always had a lot of feelings. Alright. And

T.J.: 24:41

Are your feeling do you have more feelings than the average human?

Ellen: 24:46

I might be more aware of them than the average human and maybe more willing to talk about them than the average human. I don't believe I have more.

T.J.: 24:56

Okay.

Ellen: 24:57

But I I I engage with them likely more

T.J.: 25:02

Alright.

Ellen: 25:03

Than many. I've I've, how do I say this? I had a history had because I'm so I'm such a different person now. Had a history of being a kind of a pistol. How do I say this?

Ellen: 25:23

How do I say this?

T.J.: 25:25

It's funny. Alright. As you're thinking, you are self censoring your words. So I'm giving you an opportunity to self censor to choose your word or words wisely. Okay.

T.J.: 25:37

You ready? Mm-mm. Okay.

Ellen: 25:42

No. You see, I'm trying to practice not sound not saying things that my brain might perceive as degrading.

T.J.: 25:49

Oh, okay.

Ellen: 25:50

Yes. So I'm trying to practice saying things in a way that is empowering and not making something that is a trait of mine a negative thing.

T.J.: 26:01

Interesting. See, I thought maybe you were self censoring as in how would a listener perceive me. But it's really quite the opposite. You're self censoring to articulate just the right word, to empower your, yourself and the many human feelings that you have.

Ellen: 26:23

Yes.

T.J.: 26:24

Alright. It is. Have you found your word? Beyond pistol? No.

T.J.: 26:29

Alright. We'll run with Pistol. You can always go back to it.

Ellen: 26:33

Yeah. We'll we'll just move on.

T.J.: 26:36

Yeah. So, anyway, you were in a point in your life where, you were a pistol. You were and then you stopped there. So

Ellen: 26:49

What was I saying before that? Help me out.

T.J.: 26:52

This is a wonderful conversation.

Ellen: 26:55

And this is going very well, TJ.

T.J.: 26:59

You were leading up to a place in your life where you were Oh. Asking questions, and some of them did not speak well to you weren't finding answers in terms of some of the questions that you had, and it was discouraging.

Ellen: 27:19

Okay. There. So I've always been an external processor. And as an external processor, I had to very much learn how to not say the first thing that comes into my mind.

T.J.: 27:36

It's a lifelong process.

Ellen: 27:37

It is. It is. I continue that process, actively. And so as these questions and as these feelings would come up, I've always been very vocal about them. And many, I I believe, would find them to be negative.

Ellen: 27:53

And many people would find my, expressions and my questions and my, processing out loud to be negative. And I can admit that I, have that inner critic. I have that voice on the inside of my head that criticizes not only every little thing that I see, but also myself. It is a reflection of myself. And don't love that.

Ellen: 28:21

Don't love that, but it's there. Mhmm. And I've always been that way. And, we can talk about later how I'm trying to learn to embrace how I am instead of how I believe I should be. But growing up and having these different questions and kind of being on this journey for truth and reason, Not everybody appreciated my curiosity.

T.J.: 28:54

Sure. Sure. Questions As somebody who who grew up and continues to ask questions, in in seeking answers, mundane to deep, Often times, the other person or persons can take offense to the questions when that's not the meaning behind it at all. Is it the inquisitive nature of being able to learn more, but sometimes the questions aren't always worded right. I'll speak for myself in particular, or maybe the setting isn't correct.

T.J.: 29:31

But it's that curiosity of like wanting to know more, sometimes can put people off just by how the question is asked or when it's asked or who asked it.

Ellen: 29:43

Sure. And I think that, you know, I've certainly had that effect to varying degrees to different people in different conversations, but I also think that people are very uncomfortable being challenged in something that they felt like was really strong.

T.J.: 29:57

Mhmm.

Ellen: 29:57

And when they come up with an I don't know, that makes them feel insecure, and people don't like that. People, I find are not always open to and I don't know. Let's explore that. People are much more comfortable laying on a platitude that has been recited, that is conveniently there, enabling people to not have to think or work too hard for it. And see and even saying that, it sounds negative.

Ellen: 30:31

It sounds like I'm being very critical. And, you know, I guess I am. I guess I am. And maybe it is because I used to think that there was something wrong with me. I would people would get so upset so much so that I used to really internalize these questions.

Ellen: 30:49

And, anyway, I ended up in seminary. So

T.J.: 30:53

Well, it kinda makes sense, Ellen, as an outsider looking into your life. You've been on a lifelong quest and journey, with questions. Some of them you've held onto for a long time, and you've picked up some new ones along the way. You're just seeking answers for them. You entered the seminary with the same mindset of seeking out answers to questions that you have collected over the years.

T.J.: 31:24

What was your mindset when you filled out the application to go to Memphis Theological Seminary? Was it ministry? Was it, just a deeper knowledge of the Christian faith? What was going through your mind at that time?

Ellen: 31:40

Well, TJ, that was a wild time. That was a wild time for me. I don't I don't even know that you have time for the entire for the entire journey of what landed me in the seminary, but it was never the plan. It was never my plan to go to seminary. I I graduated, with a biology degree.

Ellen: 32:02

What was your plan then?

T.J.: 32:04

What what were you planning then?

Ellen: 32:09

Well, entering college, I believed that I would be in the medical health care profession. I thought that I would maybe study nursing for a while. I was very interested in AMP in high school. I always wanted to have the ability to do missions. I had gone on some mission trips, you know, when I was in high school, domestically and foreign, and they were very transformative for me and how I experienced faith, how I experienced social contexts, the interrelational aspects of of of someone who could not speak your language, not have a real door, but a beach towel hanging up over a space where there's dirt piled up in the front of it.

Ellen: 33:14

Like, it still share the same joy and grace, feelings of love and grace and connection, as somebody who comes from a pretty standard rural, middle class, white female. Like, you know, it to me, making those connections were were very important to me. And so I thought to myself, how can I continue to be involved in this way and and help people and, you know, have, like, a stable career home? So, like, listen. I thought this thing out.

Ellen: 33:51

Okay? I think a lot. Surprise. And I thought this out perfectly. And so I developed a plan.

T.J.: 33:59

Let's hear it.

Ellen: 34:01

I would go to PA school. I would graduate with a biology degree because it had a few less chemistry classes, and then I could still bridge into PA school without having to take all of that chemistry because I hated chemistry. And so I was going to do that. I was going to go to PA school, and I would be able to have job security, a reliable income. I could, as a PA, only have to go to school for 28 months after my 4 year degree instead of for 10 years.

Ellen: 34:35

And I also didn't have to do all the yucky stuff that nurses have to do. So, like, I mean, listen. It was very meticulously thought out. PA is the sweet spot.

T.J.: 34:44

Alright. Where were you gonna work? Placement.

Ellen: 34:48

That's not important right now. So, I mean, I thought if I could be a PA at, like, a, I don't know, like, a family clinic.

T.J.: 34:55

Okay.

Ellen: 34:56

Whatever. Just a what, whatever family doctor. Mhmm. I thought that that would be perfect. I could write prescriptions and take care of people on my own, yet I wouldn't be held responsible if female practice happened because I'd be under a position.

Ellen: 35:14

It's perfect. So I thought that this is what I was gonna do and that I would be secure enough and have, financial security for my family and have a little bit more possible flexibility so that I could do maybe medical missions or something like that. That was my plan going into college. By the end of my 1st year, I remember standing in Odom Hall on campus. I went to Bethel, college slash university, later university.

Ellen: 35:42

I was there for the transition. I'm very powerful that way. And I remember standing there and just feeling in my gut, you're not going to PA school. And I kind of really didn't know what to do with that, but I also felt in my gut, stay where you are.

T.J.: 36:08

That's confusing.

Ellen: 36:10

It was confusing. It was very confusing for me, but I did. I stayed where I was because I was also open to the fact that maybe I felt that wrong, and I'm still going to PA school. And, by the way, that's what I still told people for the next several years, even though I really didn't believe that I was going to PA school. And, eventually, as part of the biology track, I was required to take, an ecology course.

Ellen: 36:45

I fell in love with it. I fell absolutely in love with ecology. I had no idea. I had no idea that I could love something that much. So I was a theater kid.

Ellen: 36:59

This sounds like it says sidebar, but it matters. I was a theater kid, so I've always been kind of that confusing, area of science, logic, reason, and also creativity, art expression, abstract. So, I mean, it's it's a little it's it's uncomfortable for some people to be both. And, I minored in theater, majored in biology because I loved theater. I still do.

Ellen: 37:28

I love theater very much. And I wanted to have something that was for me, but it did not feel practical to pursue a career in theater. Mhmm. So I decided I'm gonna minor for me and major for practicality. So in pursuing, that minor, I was taking really fun classes, like costume and makeup design, and directing classes, and and and, theater history.

Ellen: 37:59

I mean, that stuff was really fun for me, especially the costume and makeup design. I was kind of developing a reputation as the makeup person in college, and that later led to my work in cosmetics. So that's cool. But I remember my maybe the fall of my senior year after I had been in class for a couple of months, going to a CCC event, maybe. It was outside in the gazebo in the middle of campus.

Ellen: 38:36

What is

T.J.: 38:37

what is CCC?

Ellen: 38:39

Campus Crusades for Christ. Yes. It was the it was the just campus faith organization

T.J.: 38:47

Mhmm.

Ellen: 38:49

That I would often participate in. And I don't remember really what the event was, but it was outside, and it was casual gathering something. And I remember chap Chaplain Anna Haines coming and sitting beside me, and she was engaging me on, what are you looking at after this? You know, you're about to graduate. What what's next?

Ellen: 39:14

And I felt like I could be honest and say, you know, I really don't know. I really thought PA school was gonna be it, and I just feel like it's not. I feel like it's not, and I really don't know what to do with it. So I don't know. I don't know what's next.

Ellen: 39:28

And she said, well, what is your favorite class? And I thought and the first thing that I thought was it's supposed to be costume and makeup design. That's supposed to be what my favorite class is, but it was ecology. And that surprised me. I hadn't thought about it.

Ellen: 39:45

I hadn't thought about what my favorite class was. Mhmm. I hadn't really thought about how much I loved it. She said, what about ecology excites you so much? What what gets you going so much?

Ellen: 39:58

What is it about this class? And being forced to think about it for the first time, it was the relational connection of all living things. For me, how impactful it is, the decisions that we make as human beings in relation to the nature, the creation that is around us, and how important those things are. And, you know, to be a Debbie Downer, how detrimental we have been to creation. But then the hope in that is that if we just chill out for a little bit and if, like, you know, we just become aware and and spread this awareness, if people just knew the impact that they had, surely, the change would happen.

Ellen: 40:44

You know? Like, I've been studying biology for how many years now, and I didn't know these things. I just didn't know. I didn't know how how important this is. I didn't know that we are on the cusp of some big changes that can be very, very bad and that don't have to be

T.J.: 41:06

Mhmm.

Ellen: 41:07

Still, that it's not too far gone. And the the beauty in the way that the Earth has been created by God, that it can heal itself if we allow it to. And so it became, like, my quest to just talk about it. I thought if people just knew, like, I didn't know, and I've been in this degree program for how many years. I didn't know.

Ellen: 41:35

We just need to talk about it. Nobody knows in Mackenzie, Tennessee, in Weekley County, Tennessee. Like, we don't we don't know. There's not programs that exist. Maybe if we talk about it, we can develop programs that exist that can help raise awareness, blah blah blah blah, all the things, and it got me so excited.

Ellen: 41:54

I was so fueled by this. And she said, you know, Ellen, there are degree programs that exist that study the relationship between religion and nature. And I my mind just, like, blew open. It literally exploded. I was blown away that such a thing would exist.

Ellen: 42:21

And I immediately went to go look it up, and that became my new plan. I am going to go to the one school in the United States that offers this one single degree program, except for I can't do that this next year because I

T.J.: 42:39

So so you shifted, excuse me for interrupting, from PA. This is your fall semester of your senior year.

Ellen: 42:49

Mhmm.

T.J.: 42:50

To a college, then to what was leading up to graduate school and seminary.

Ellen: 43:01

Mhmm.

T.J.: 43:02

Alright. Alright. Go ahead. I just wanted to recap where we are so far.

Ellen: 43:07

Yeah. And so with that, I, I knew I needed to take some more classes that I hadn't been able to take or known to take. I needed to be able to plan to take a GRE and other kind of standardized testing to qualify for this master's program at Gainesville. And, so I knew that it was gonna take some time. I knew it wasn't going to be next fall of 2012.

Ellen: 43:40

That's when I graduated 2012. I knew that fall of 2012 was not when I would be going to Florida to do this degree program.

T.J.: 43:48

Oh, okay. I jumped ahead. So you were you were looking at, University of Florida in Gainesville to continue your education, and I was saying seminary. So go ahead. Go ahead.

Ellen: 44:00

It it eventually led to seminary, as you'll find. But, anyway, I had been in this very long term relationship, at this time. Like, basically, all of college was with this, one person. And, we kind of had this, big fight that summer after I graduated. And I was working, with state parks at Paris Landing as a seasonal interpretive ranger, one of my many random jobs.

Ellen: 44:28

I was a park ranger, thank you very much, for a summer. Had this random week of fallout with this fella, and it forced me to ask myself the question, where would I be and what would I be doing if I wasn't making decisions around other people? Which, for me was was very big. I had very much fallen into a pattern, unfortunately, of needing to maintain connections is more important than following what I need. Mhmm.

Ellen: 45:06

And so it finally brought me to a place where I said, okay. I would actually be in school. I really want to pursue this program, and that's really not an option this semester. So what are you gonna do? This internship ends in September.

Ellen: 45:25

Then what? You've graduated. What are you gonna do? And in a single weekend, I went I went to Memphis, and and I was staying with my mom and, having my existential crisis. And I kept searching.

Ellen: 45:41

You know what? Maybe I'll move to Memphis, and I will live with mom. And I will take some classes at, U of M or Christian Brothers or somewhere and just take some more religion classes and kind of get pumped up while I'm studying and getting ready to go do this program.

T.J.: 45:59

Right. Because you were just filling in the gaps between that present time and then going to Gainesville.

Ellen: 46:06

Right. I was trying to set myself on my own course. I ended up, just being on Google for a few solid hours looking at different, class options. And sweet Google, non spirit led Google kept landing me at Memphis Theological Seminary. And I kept saying, nope.

Ellen: 46:35

Go back to search page. And I'm at the time, you know, I was very familiar with MTS. My college roommate, Anna Sweet Brockman, had plans to go there that fall. That's where preachers go. That's where, like, all the preachers that I know, the many CP preachers that I know, that's where they go.

Ellen: 46:59

And I'm not, like, trying to be a preacher, so that wouldn't be appropriate. That's not that's not what I'm trying to do here. So, no. Your goal was

T.J.: 47:08

to be

Ellen: 47:08

search page.

T.J.: 47:09

An ecologist and go and change the minds of the people around the world.

Ellen: 47:17

Yes. I should I should also I should probably take this opportunity, this break. If I can go back a little bit. If I can kinda rewind for a second.

T.J.: 47:28

Okay. Alright.

Ellen: 47:32

During this time, whenever I was in college and trying to, simply talk about the things that I was learning in ecology because I thought this is important, and we need to talk about it. I visited my, one of my roommates, for a weekend or or something. And as they were working doing something, I spent time with her mom, which totally normal. I hang out with people's moms all the time. It's fine.

Ellen: 48:03

You know, just me and your mom, it's fine. And we went to the commissary on base, in Fort Campbell, and she was like, oh, I've gotta get toilet paper. I've gotta get toilet paper. And I said, did you know? Speaking of toilet paper, that, the softer the toilet paper, the older the trees.

Ellen: 48:21

And did you know that Procter and Gamble is responsible for 10,000 square kilometers of deforestation each year? And this is destroying our blah blah blah. And she stopped, and she turns, and she looks at me, and she says, Ellen, who cares? It's all gonna burn anyway. And deep in my soul, I was hurting to hear that.

Ellen: 48:47

Deep in my soul, I felt you're wrong, but I don't know how to defend that. And I felt very much led to defend creation, God's creation, from a Christian standpoint. So that very much fed into the religion and nature aspect of what I was trying to pursue. It was important for me to have a more theological basis of the ecology work.

T.J.: 49:23

Blending those two languages together.

Ellen: 49:26

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

T.J.: 49:29

Okay. So rewind. Now we'll fast forward back to where we were. And you were on, you called it sweet Google, and you kept getting Memphis Theological Seminary in your search engine.

Ellen: 49:45

Sweet Google. Yes. Yes. And, nothing else was really making sense as I was looking at other things. And then on sweet Google, the masters of arts in religion program came up for me, at MTS.

Ellen: 50:01

Sorry. Mhmm. And I thought, oh, okay. I don't have to, like, be a preacher. It's fine.

Ellen: 50:06

I could just go and and kind of, like, kind of create this piece that's kind of around this thing and well, you know what? I don't know. I don't know any of this. I'm just gonna go in on Monday, and I'm gonna just talk to a person because I'm tired of trying to figure out what could be because I don't know.

T.J.: 50:22

Oh, so you actually went into the school the following business day?

Ellen: 50:26

I did. The following business day. And the first person I met was your wife.

T.J.: 50:32

Okay. Okay.

Ellen: 50:34

I I walked in and well, possibly Trisha Parish. You know, she probably directed me there. I said, I have questions about being a student. And Melissa said, oh, yes. Here.

Ellen: 50:50

Come. Have a seat. Oh, gosh. We have a young person, and I'm projecting, but, really, this has gotta be what was in her mind. Oh, wow.

Ellen: 50:58

We have another young person. Oh, and you're Cumberland Presbyterian? Wonderful. Please come in. Come in.

Ellen: 51:05

Sit down, please. The you're you're moved by the spirit to be a minister. Yes. Okay. Calm down.

Ellen: 51:10

Calm down, Melissa. She didn't say all that. I'm I'm totally projecting. But there was that that that energy of, oh, yeah. Yeah.

Ellen: 51:21

Yeah. Prospective student. Come on. Come on. Come on.

Ellen: 51:24

Mhmm. And,

T.J.: 51:25

I was like, oh, hey. For that job.

Ellen: 51:28

Yeah. Yeah. She was great. Absolutely great. And she was so hospitable and warm, and I felt safe to kind of dump all of that on her.

Ellen: 51:39

And I said, this is where I've been. And she was like, wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.

Ellen: 51:42

Wait. I've gotta get someone else in here. She calls Barry Anderson in. And so he's sitting there, and they're both listening to my story. And then they're like, well so, you know, Anne Haines.

Ellen: 51:58

Yeah. She kind of encouraged me, you know, at one point to kind of follow this kind of trajectory, and I just I'm trying to just look at what classes, but I don't know what this looks like. I don't know what I'm doing. I I'm just I found I found this on Google repeatedly. My mom had also worked there for a stint.

Ellen: 52:16

So, I mean, I was I was really familiar with MTS and was trying to not be there and kept feeling like that's where I was supposed to go and ask questions, and so I did. And listen, TJ, this isn't normal. And if it is, well, I'm gonna believe I'm gonna have to believe that it's not normal. But by the time I left, they said, you're in. You're accepted.

Ellen: 52:42

What's your GPA? You've got a full ride. And, what presbytery are you part of? Great. You're gonna be fine.

Ellen: 52:49

Just fill out this application and get to it as soon as soon as possible. You're gonna start in 3 weeks. What? Well, I don't I don't really understand what just happened. I can't just start in 3 weeks.

Ellen: 53:03

Like, January was too late for me to finish the things that I needed to do to start this coming semester in Florida. There's no way I can just, like, start in 3 weeks. That's okay. No. Just do it.

Ellen: 53:19

Fill it out. Get it to me. We've been praying for you to come. That's weird. That's weird.

Ellen: 53:27

But it it it opened. That door was wide open, and it kept it it was staying there wide open. And I was very confused. But also, like, okay. Here we go.

Ellen: 53:46

I guess I need to find a job here. And then walked out of the mall with an interview at Sephora, the one place that I told my mom time years before. I said, if I could work any place in the mall, it'd be Sephora. And I don't remember saying that. She remembered me saying that, but I walked out with an interview set up already somehow.

Ellen: 54:05

I didn't mean for that to happen. I looked disgusting. I had woken up from a nap and had no makeup on and shredded jeans and a tank top. So, like, it was not I went in to grab an application, and I walked out with an interview scheduled. So there's no reason why that should have happened.

Ellen: 54:20

So I just kept connecting This is where I'm supposed to be, obviously, and who am I to fight it? Because that this is this is this is what I'm gonna have to come do. Otherwise, this is just, this is weird. So that's how I ended up in seminary. Yeah.

T.J.: 54:38

Well, as you embarked on this journey, as the seeker of answers that you are, were any of those questions that you posed in your younger years come up with clarity and, well, satisfaction?

Ellen: 55:00

I'll say satisfaction, not necessarily clarity. For me, I think I had to get to a point.

T.J.: 55:07

To live in the mystery.

Ellen: 55:10

Yes, TJ. I had to be okay with not knowing. Yeah. But also which I think is probably what my uncle doug was trying to express to me whenever he said, well, that's where faith comes in. But at the time, it felt like such a cop out.

Ellen: 55:27

And I'm not I'm still not sure, love him very much, that it wasn't. But because, I mean, how how could you try to answer that impossible question to a 10 year old anyway? It doesn't there's there's not going to be an answer. Right? So I will say that the the further that I went in, the the farther that I dove in, the more I had grace with not knowing, the more I had to become comfortable with being uncomfortable in some of that.

T.J.: 56:08

Mhmm.

Ellen: 56:10

And feeling the ability to discern what is actually important to discern. What is important to to feel like I know versus this is not the hell to die on.

T.J.: 56:26

Why the ministry to the word in the sacraments? You coulda just stopped with the master of arts. Why'd you keep going?

Ellen: 56:38

You know, TJ, truth be truth be fully told, I felt pushed into it. And this is me. I am being completely honest. I felt as a candidate for ministry under the care of West Tennessee Presbyterian that I loved, I felt that it was clear that that was the option. If you're going to pursue ministry, this is how we will support you, and this is how you do this path.

Ellen: 57:25

And there came a time in seminary. It may gosh. It had to have been my last year in seminary. Can't quite remember exactly when, but way farther on, I remember having lunch with a couple of my friends. And I was, already with Tommy at that time.

Ellen: 57:51

Tommy Clark is my husband. We've been together for about 10 years now, and we were dating at that time, and I don't know. I was helping with, Urban Bicycle Food Ministry. He had already moved to Middle Tennessee, and I was very much in a spiritual leadership role with UBF in Memphis. And we had gotten a space with the carpenter's house and then started to invite, you know, Barry and Lisa to come look at the space.

Ellen: 58:24

And, like, what about this for, like, Iona and? And, like so our ideas at this time are, like, just really pouring. Like, what could we do with this space? What can we imagine this ministry looking like in this collaborative ministry? And I thought to myself for a long time that, like, what is the point of being an ordained minister?

Ellen: 58:47

And I was kind of feeling fraudulent. I was kinda no. I'm not saying in general, but for me. Mhmm.

T.J.: 58:53

I

Ellen: 58:53

was feeling fraudulent because I didn't feel called to congregational ministry, and I was very aware that this is the direction I was going to be pushed in. And I was doing pulpit supply on the weekends, and I didn't buy it. But doing a sermon every week and and and and no. It was I never wanted to do that. I I never wanted to in the beginning.

Ellen: 59:19

I grew love for it that I didn't know could exist, but it is never what has felt what was right for me. And, I kinda felt like this is what I was being told I needed to do, and it didn't feel it didn't feel authentic to me. And and I was talking to my friends about this, saying I can continue to to help in in this treatment industry, and I've worked in nonprofits. And I can still, be like an advocate for, creation, you know, in this way, and I don't need to be ordained. What's the difference?

Ellen: 59:59

For me just to be able to marry people or baptize people? And I don't I mean, like, Tommy can do that. There's plenty of people around that can baptize and marry people. Like, what's the point? And I decided that day that I was gonna talk to my committee on ministry and say, you know what?

Ellen: 01:00:21

I've explored, and I will pay you back every penny. But I don't think that I need to be ordained to word in sacrament. Like, I I don't know. I just don't I don't feel like it's authentic for me. And I went on to class, and they helped console me and comfort me and affirm my feelings and their wonderful, wonderful support.

Ellen: 01:00:48

And I went on into class, and it was, I think Mission of the Church with George Estes.

T.J.: 01:00:55

Mhmm.

Ellen: 01:00:55

He was he was adjunct that that, semester, and I don't remember what he said. But he said something, and it triggered an idea. It triggered an idea. And I grabbed my phone, and I started texting Tommy. I mean, I thought about in the carpenter's house this, and we really need to be able to provide a space for people to feel safe for them to come.

Ellen: 01:01:20

Like, we should hold regular communion services. And if people want to blah blah blah blah blah, and this is, like, the importance of and I was typing the words, you need to do this. And I heard, I think, for the second time in my life, I heard I have quote fingers for the listeners. God say, no, Ellen. You need to do this.

T.J.: 01:01:42

An audible voice.

Ellen: 01:01:45

I it was clear. It was clear in my head, second time in my life only. And I just froze and I wept, And I said, okay. I'll I'll do it. I will pursue ordained ministry because there are more implications.

Ellen: 01:02:08

There are more people to reach than just people. I don't wanna say just people. That's not fair. But there's it's more than the congregation. It's the body of Christ

T.J.: 01:02:18

Mhmm.

Ellen: 01:02:19

Fully and that I need to be able to be prepared to do this as I've been called to. And so I continued on. And congregational ministry is still not comfortable for me. It's still not. It's still not it.

Ellen: 01:02:37

And and that's that's okay because I found what's it, but it was a journey. And I don't know. Then I never had to have that uncomfortable conversation with my committee on ministry. And that was a relief.

T.J.: 01:03:01

Well, your ministry has taken you on different paths besides congregational ministries. One of them being you were a starter of a new new church development. So with honesty and unbridledness, what was that season of your life like?

Ellen: 01:03:29

Overwhelming. Mhmm. It it ended up being where I needed to be at the time. It brought me where I needed to be. It enabled me and Tommy to continue doing ministry together as it put me in Middle Tennessee.

Ellen: 01:03:58

The idea of this new church development was so exciting to me. It was so exciting to me to have the opportunity to have I hate to say untainted, but to be able to form my own congregation, if you will, my own worship group, my own community of people, and I sincerely wanted to reach out to those who felt disillusioned and hurt by the church, who felt perhaps unwelcome, perhaps very much unmet expectations, I I I guess I should just say. And I wanted to reach out to people in my generation, people but not exclusively so, but certainly people in my generation have become vastly disillusioned with the church universal. And

T.J.: 01:05:00

Did you

Ellen: 01:05:01

I wanted to study that. I think I've reached some.

T.J.: 01:05:06

Well, I yeah. I mean, I

Ellen: 01:05:08

don't I reached some.

T.J.: 01:05:09

Did you did you, have the ambitions of reaching the whole demographic?

Ellen: 01:05:16

Yes, TJ. I needed all of them. All of them in Franklin, Tennessee.

T.J.: 01:05:23

Well, let's talk about let's talk about the sum. Looking back on that period of your your life and your ministry, were those some that you gathered, do you think that their lives were enriched, maybe even changed, as they went about their daily routine and work and relationships?

Ellen: 01:05:48

You know, I really do. And, you know, as church people, we can get really caught up in success looking like numbers, and it was hard for me to feel like I wasn't succeeding because I would routinely have, like, 4 people. And then and then sometimes we'd get a random new person, and maybe they would come again in 2 months later. And maybe they will just send a Facebook message 5 months later and say, hey. Are you guys still meeting?

Ellen: 01:06:23

And, like, you know, I don't wanna dismiss the importance of that. But at the time, it it was it was challenging for me to feel like I'm here and working so much the secular job. I was working so much, so many hours, and then trying to make meaningful connections and have meaningful conversations. In, like, 3 spare hours of a week. And, you know, I I kept feeling like perhaps the people that have come and become my friends were coming because they felt obligated to continue this.

Ellen: 01:07:15

Mhmm. They felt obligated to support me. And then I felt like, well, this isn't church. This is just my community. This is but then at the same time, that is church.

Ellen: 01:07:24

But then I also understood that it might be unfair for the, you know, denomination to fund my friend group, my newly formed community as and so then we started to really hash out what that looked like. Right? What does it mean to be a community of faith? And and and what can this look like? And what are our directions?

Ellen: 01:07:41

And, I will say even after, that mission, what's the term, dissolved

T.J.: 01:07:49

Yeah.

Ellen: 01:07:50

After it disbanded, You know, several of the people that would come and meet, they they still reach out, and they wanna get together and have more conversations. So I do believe it was impactful, and I do believe that people of different, different belief systems and different experiences, different social contexts that came and gathered and discussed and fellowship, you know, we there was an impact. There's a lasting impact. And, so I don't wanna I don't want to minimize that, and I don't I don't want to devalue that time.

T.J.: 01:08:32

What advice would you give to somebody who maybe was experiencing an itch for starting a new group to gather people for worship and for study and for, like, really meaningful relationships and for those who are seeking seeking to know more about Christ. If you could gather up those who were thinking about being those leaders starting something like that, what words of advice would you give them?

Ellen: 01:09:09

I think I would really stress authenticity. I think I tried so hard to be outside the box that it became really unclear what my intentions were. And that sometimes people would show up and be like, oh, wait. What? And I and then I was like, oh gosh.

Ellen: 01:09:30

Yeah. I guess that sounds manipulative. It probably looks like I'm trying to manipulate people. You know? And I should just be clear about the whole thing.

Ellen: 01:09:41

Like, I should just yeah. In this is not a very easy thing for me to talk about because I feel Truth and authenticity are very important to me, and it was so important for me to try to reach people who had been hurt by the church that I didn't even want to use church language in the promotion of it. And so I didn't. There were you know, up until this one moment, I was like, oh gosh. Yeah.

Ellen: 01:10:15

Well, gosh. Of course. And this girl, she she she arrived at home, and we started having these conversations. And she told me about, her experience with her, family and homeschooling and the role that faith played in their lives and in her life and her falling out and becoming, atheistic altogether. And I wanted to welcome her still in that space without being like, oh, hey.

Ellen: 01:10:43

Well, let me tell you what Jesus has done for me. You know, I wanted to create a safe space for her to talk about those things and see really what it is, you know, at the core of that, together. And I wanted us all to be able to explore that. But when she heard oh, actually, the rest of you are Christians? Like, oh, wait.

Ellen: 01:11:07

This is like a church thing? This is like a okay. Okay. I think I should go. And then I was like, oh, no.

Ellen: 01:11:14

No. No. No. No. You could stay.

Ellen: 01:11:15

We're totally fine. We want you to be here. And, like, she's like, I thought this was like an open thought kind of group. And I was like, well, it it is. It is open.

Ellen: 01:11:25

Like, you can all people can come and openly share and blah blah blah. Yeah. I'm gonna go. And that killed me because when I went back and I read the description of meeting for the night, it was not clear

T.J.: 01:11:42

Mhmm.

Ellen: 01:11:43

That it was, like, a more faith oriented discussion. And I doubt that almost nobody else is probably gonna have this problem. I was trying to create something that was a little bit different. But I I just felt like, oh my gosh. I look like I'm trying to just trap people and manipulate people, and that was my worst nightmare.

Ellen: 01:12:10

That was the opposite of my goal, and that's exactly what I conveyed because I wasn't authentic to what I was really trying to do. I was not clear about my actual goal.

T.J.: 01:12:20

Mhmm.

Ellen: 01:12:21

And so I think that really hurt the whole thing.

T.J.: 01:12:26

So being who you are, sharing the gifts that you do have, don't claim to have other new gifts, and build authentic relationships to have authentic conversations. Is the advice that you would give to somebody who is really seeking out and exploring having the opportunity to gather new new people together.

Ellen: 01:12:52

Yes. I I do. I I think that was a very eloquent way of saying all the ramble that I just tried to say and admit my deepest shames. That's not my deepest shame. But, I mean, I'm not proud of that.

Ellen: 01:13:09

You know? That's a it's a hard thing for me to talk about because well, gosh, I could talk a long time about shame, TJ. In fact, it probably should for a little while, but, you know, that I wasn't so that time also became very painful for me because I kept trying to go back to the drawing board. And how many times did we use that terminology Back to the drawing board. Back to the drawing board.

T.J.: 01:13:33

Mhmm.

Ellen: 01:13:33

And it just felt like I was trying to meet other people's needs. I was trying so hard to reach out to other people who had the disillusionment, who had the unmet expectations, and I wanted to meet those. I wanted to create new expectations. I wanted to create clear expectations. And you're gonna feel safe with me, and we're gonna talk about it here.

Ellen: 01:13:57

And we're gonna just change the way that you have been broken down, and we are going to prove that this isn't God's fault. This is society's fault or this is the church universal fault or this is you know, I'm gonna, like I took it so much upon myself to meet other people's needs that I wasn't able to see what is that I'd I was actually that's a problem that I have. Not even able sometimes to name what my needs are because it's more important for me to meet the needs the needs of others.

T.J.: 01:14:35

And fighting the temptation of discovering other people's needs so that we can change our gifts and our abilities to address those needs. That happens in ministry, I think, a lot.

Ellen: 01:14:52

Can you say that again?

T.J.: 01:14:55

To discover other people's needs first so that we can shape our gifts and our abilities to help address those needs. I see that in ministry Mhmm. A lot.

Ellen: 01:15:09

Yeah. You're right. It's yeah. I could talk a long time, and then probably be another day, another podcast Mhmm. Another dance for for me to talk about Enneagram work.

Ellen: 01:15:23

But all of that has really helped me to understand that one of my core things and especially in ministry is seeking out needs of others and me feeling like I know your needs better than you do and yet not able to actually be true or attend to my own. Mhmm. And I think that that is as as a I mean, you know, Enneagram 2, and that's a big thing for that is, like, the thing for Enneagram twos. But, I think that that has become also like a a social conditioning of the southern church. So it's not exclusive to necessarily.

T.J.: 01:16:05

I don't want us to overlook. You mentioned shame. Was there anything there lingering that you wanted to touch on?

Ellen: 01:16:15

Yeah. I do. I do wanna talk about shame because shame is so powerful because we don't talk about it. Shame consumes us when we try to bury it because we're not supposed to. Right?

Ellen: 01:16:36

We're not supposed to to talk about it. We're supposed to talk ourselves up. And, so, really, for the all you listeners out there, I have ghosted TJ Malinovsky for a year and a half about this podcast. We had a date. We had a time.

Ellen: 01:16:59

He sent me an email with stuff in it. And I was to be prepared for this. And I said, I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it.

Ellen: 01:17:07

I'll let you know when I can, but I can't do it. And this is you know, this was during the period of time when that new church development, folded, and I had just gotten married, in 2019 September 2019. And then we had this global pandemic, and then everything was very strange and, virtual. And, you know, different churches have began to contact Tommy about well, we're looking for a new minister, and we're interested in in interviewing you. And, actually, like, 3 different churches at one time contacted him, and then the world shut down.

Ellen: 01:17:50

And so I was like, something's happening with Tommy here. Something's happening with Tommy. My ministry is folding, and I felt shame in that. And I, for the first time in my life, am going to sit back and see where God is guiding Tommy in that ministry before I try to pursue what else is next for me. And it is not like me to not have a plan.

Ellen: 01:18:20

So I sat in very uncomfortable shame and silence for a year and a half following following that, like, from the pandemic on. And so in that time, I guess it was 2021 whenever you you asked me to do this podcast. So I'm like, yeah. Sure. Okay.

Ellen: 01:18:52

I'm so anxious. But okay. Fine. I'll do it because I wanna I'd rather meet your need to have a personal on this podcast rather than let you know that I'm an anxious wreck and that I can't, handle my shame publicly. Oh, no.

Ellen: 01:19:07

I can't do it. You know, I was too ashamed to say I don't know what I'm doing, and I don't actually know what I'm called to do. Mhmm. I was in a time where I was like, you know, I was called to seminary. These this was real, wasn't it?

Ellen: 01:19:24

It was real. Right? I didn't make this up. I promise I did not go to seminary just because, like, I wanted to. I just wanted to go to the same school as my beloved roommate, Anna who I absolutely adore and wanna be with forever.

Ellen: 01:19:42

No. I did not make that up. So what are you doing with me, god? What are we doing here? I don't wanna do congregational ministry.

Ellen: 01:19:53

What else does that look like? We don't do a great job of talking about what else that looks like, if I can be honest. But I'm just gonna sit here and wait. And that was so uncomfortable for me, TJ. I was so uncomfortable, and I probably had a lot of soul work to do than I allowed myself to do.

Ellen: 01:20:15

Instead, I numbed myself and tried to not feel anything or talk about anything, and I challenged myself a lot. I didn't speak out against things or for things that I I felt passionate about because I was scared I was gonna say it wrong or be seen. I didn't wanna be seen. And it was during that time that you asked me to do this podcast, and I I just couldn't bring myself to be seen whenever I didn't have everything altogether. And I wanna talk about it because I don't wanna feel ashamed of it anymore.

Ellen: 01:20:58

I think that as a society, as our in our communities, we need to be able to encourage people to talk about their shame because it is prevalent, and then it's rampant. And, when we name it, it doesn't have as much power over us. And, yeah.

T.J.: 01:21:24

What does it feel like to let go of shame?

Ellen: 01:21:29

It feels liberating. It feels empowering. When I'm reminded that my voice matters and that I have a role that matters, that I have gifts that matter, that my place matters, it's transformative.

T.J.: 01:21:51

Can you talk about the similarities and the differences between self shame and then like shame that is external, like shame from another person to another person? And have you have you felt both? As you're thinking about it, I'll try to articulate my question a bit better. I think that there are moments where I have shamed myself. Something that I said or didn't say, something I did or didn't do.

T.J.: 01:22:28

And that would be kind of self shame. No one brought it to my attention. It was just upon reflection. But then I I think there's also the external shame that is from one person to another for, you know, maybe multiple or many reasons, but to purposely bring to light. Maybe for for accountability or could be for belittling, but to shame the other person, because of their conduct or the words they said.

T.J.: 01:23:07

Could you talk about both of those a bit more in detail?

Ellen: 01:23:12

Sure.

T.J.: 01:23:14

And have you care have you carried 1 or both?

Ellen: 01:23:19

I feel that I've certainly carried both. I mean, one of the first things I mentioned in our conversation was the shame that I felt as a child. And there from from childhood, there are many instances of shame fueling that I won't get into. But, you know, that was a distinct feeling of shame on the on the playground whenever I felt less than, and not a good enough Christian or, that I didn't have appropriate faith or maybe wasn't chosen by God, if I hadn't been saved. You know?

Ellen: 01:23:55

That terminology that was used and and still, you know, is used a lot. So I think that the external shaming fuels, It trains our inner sense of shame. And I know that that can depending on various personality contexts, that can be elevated with, some more than others. But I don't think that my inner critic voice just appeared out of nowhere. I think it was taught.

Ellen: 01:24:30

I think, she learned from those around her. This is acceptable, and this is not. I dealt with a lot of shame, a lot of self shame, a lot of inner shame as I was going through school, high school, college, when I couldn't finish my work. I I couldn't get my work done. I would fall asleep reading the first page of anything for a reading assignment.

Ellen: 01:24:58

I could do math for some reason. But anything else, I would I don't know. I would just I I'd fall asleep. I would my procrastination was extraordinary. It's still pretty stellar.

Ellen: 01:25:10

But, I would stay up all night trying to get some things done, writing until my hands nearly bled. Like, you know, I I felt like, wow. You're such a procrastinator. You're such a loser. You're so lazy.

Ellen: 01:25:29

Why do you always do this? Why do you do this? Why are you like this? Why can't you just get it done? Why can't you just focus?

Ellen: 01:25:36

Why can't you just step outside? Why can't you just stop freaking out? Why can't you just go to sleep? Why can't you stop cleaning your shower right now? It's 4 o'clock in the morning, and you've gotta go to bed.

Ellen: 01:25:58

Why can't you stop? And, the older I got and, honestly, probably because of seminary, because I became under the care of West Tennessee Presbyterian. Luckily, I was required to have a psychological evaluation before I could, you know, be taken under the care of of seminary. So whenever I did that, I've always been very open to that, to behavioral health, having had anxiety attacks since I was 11 regularly, in needing to address those and understand what that is and, also having resentment that they were there. And with that, I was able to establish a wonderful relationship with a wonderful therapist, that I worked with for 4 years that helped me understand that impacts of trauma that we won't fully of course, we don't have time for those lengthy and, well, frankly, stories that I don't want to bring up.

Ellen: 01:27:13

But the the important thing to share is that, you know, trauma can look so different to so many people, and it's very easy to say, well, my trauma doesn't look anything like so and so's trauma, so I don't know why I'm having such a hard time functioning. I don't know why I just can't be normal. I don't know why I can't focus. And then and to know how much shame and how much trauma and how much these things rewire our brains and our neurological systems to continue to react in ways that at one point at one point, it served us. It kept us alive, and now it doesn't.

Ellen: 01:27:57

Mhmm. It no longer serves me. So how do how do I how do I adjust? And there's shame in talking about behavioral health. There's shame in talking about anxiety.

Ellen: 01:28:06

Why do I have trauma? I'm ashamed to talk about it. I'm ashamed to talk about the events in which I found myself that gave me PTSD that have fueled further anxiety disorders like ADHD and OCD. Man, I'm an alphabet soup, and I could feel shame about that over and over and over again. But we've gotta talk about this.

Ellen: 01:28:35

We've got to be able to normalize this because the truth of the matter is that so many people around us are experiencing these things and don't know what they are because they're told that only broken people have this or that only crazy people have this. And that's I think normal people have anxiety. I think that's, like, the new normal, especially after this pandemic. It's it's very prevalent, and we're in a we're in a mental health crisis. There is not enough care.

Ellen: 01:29:07

And I feel that shame is is an extraordinary fueler of of all of this. And we continue to loop over and over and over again these messages that we've we've picked up our entire lives. And most of them originated whenever we were really young and don't don't even realize it. Right? Like, I've had a relatively new revelation that I have a fear of appearing appearing to believe that I think I'm better than someone else.

Ellen: 01:29:42

I have a fear of appearing to believe that I think I'm better than someone else. I am appalled to think that somebody might look at me or observe me, hear me, and think she thinks she's better than me. That's like a worst nightmare for me, and that's bizarre. Most people are like, who who cares? But I just kind of came to that because of a message that I heard whenever I was little because I said words like my Michigan family and words like my Tennessee family.

Ellen: 01:30:14

And my Tennessee family says, oh, coffee table. Oh, you think you're been us. Coffee. Oh, yeah? Antagonize.

Ellen: 01:30:26

What's that word? Where'd you bring that out of? You know? Because I'm a kid, and I'm just picking up what I hear. My voice has changed.

Ellen: 01:30:32

I don't have a West Tennessee accent. And people think, oh, are you ashamed of that? Are you ashamed of West Tennessee? You don't wanna sound like you're from West Tennessee. Like, I'm being I've been shamed for so long about creating my own voice Mhmm.

Ellen: 01:30:51

And having my own voice and my own expressions that I eventually learned to talk like whoever is talking to me. The older I got in the more diverse populations that I spoke to, I had to be really careful because I would automatically talk like whatever accent was talking to me, and that's not always appropriate. So I had to really learn to police myself. But if I talk to somebody with a drawl, I will bring out the drawl. And if I talk to somebody from Minnesota, you betcha.

Ellen: 01:31:21

It's gonna be great. Like, they're gonna I changed to whoever because I wanna meet somebody else's comfort level and their need because the the risk of losing connection for me is it it's the end.

T.J.: 01:31:39

Let's talk about what you've been excited to share is what you're pursuing now in terms of your vocation and your study. Yes.

Ellen: 01:31:57

At the perfect time, as happens, somebody said the right word at the right time on the right day of my period of existential crisis and said, well, sounds like you're a sounds like chaplain to me. And, of course, I had known what a chaplain is. I've had several friends to pursue chaplaincy. And You

T.J.: 01:32:26

had a deep conversation with a college chaplain in a pivotal moment in your life.

Ellen: 01:32:32

I did. I did. And, after further conversations, you know, she she supported me being in seminary and, was on my committee on ministry for the rest of the time, and she was part of my ordination service. So, certainly, that chaplain, Anne Haines, was integral to my, to to my experience with chaplaincy. I feel that lisa Anderson was very much a mentor to me in in ministry and she spent years She wasn't my chaplain necessarily, but she was very much a mentor to me, in my seminary years.

Ellen: 01:33:16

And, you know, she spent decades as a as a hospital chaplain, at St. Jude. And, you know, I was very familiar with what that is, and what that is is you're sitting with people and their pain and their suffering. And so I thought I knew, not necessarily in the campus ministry context, but certainly in a hospital context, why would I choose to sit in people's pain and suffering and to continue to take on their pain and suffering when my level of empathy is so extraordinarily high and unmanageable that I do that every day anyway. And, no, I think that would be crazy.

Ellen: 01:34:00

So I I never entertained the idea. It was always a, oh, that's a job option that I can't do. Nope. Past. Next.

Ellen: 01:34:08

What's next? So I I never believed I could be a chaplain. And during my moments of of crisis at the end of this, like, year and a half, when I was truly just trying to say, you know, what are my gifts? What are my true gifts? What really brings me joy?

Ellen: 01:34:26

And it's meeting people and hearing their stories and giving people power to their voice and that their their questions and their struggle matters.

T.J.: 01:34:37

Mhmm.

Ellen: 01:34:40

And that they're not broken or bad people because they have questions. And that's really what I have to do. I don't know what that is, but I wanna do that is kind of where where I was. And, somebody said, well, that sounds like a chaplain. And I kind of went into this, like, that's so raven zone out, like, far away Zoom, whatever with my eyes.

Ellen: 01:35:08

Just zone just stare like, oh my gosh. And I'm in my head, and somebody walks up and is like, hey. What are you guys talking about? And I say, I'm gonna be a chaplain. I'm gonna I'm gonna be a chaplain.

Ellen: 01:35:18

And then he's like and, you know, I wasn't saying that. You know? It's it I think he thinks I was being a smart aleck. Like, oh, if he has all the answers, I'm gonna be a chaplain. But I was like, no.

Ellen: 01:35:28

No. No. No. No. For real.

Ellen: 01:35:29

I'm gonna be a chaplain. And so, like, from that moment, like you said the right word at the right time, that was my gift. I've gotta use it. I'm gonna go figure out what that looks like, and, started the process of applying for this. So I've been a resident at, Saint Thomas West here in Nashville, since September and zeroed out in my mind absolutely where I'm supposed to be.

Ellen: 01:35:52

And so naturally, like, oh, look. I have trajectory in my life, and I have a plan. And so now I can talk to DJ on a podcast. Yeah. That's what shame does.

Ellen: 01:36:06

Now now now I'm okay. So now I'll talk to you.

T.J.: 01:36:10

Nervous laughter. How much more residential work do you have to do? That might not be the right word. How far along are you in pursuing the vocation of becoming a chaplain? And and what do you envision?

T.J.: 01:36:26

A hospice hospital chaplain, military, hospice, college? And I'm sure I I'm missing subvocations within the vocation. What are your preliminary plans as a person who has had plans all along?

Ellen: 01:36:43

Mhmm. I've got lots of plans all the time. But I've kind of learned how plans work. And what I've learned is that it is important for me to have plans Mhmm. Knowing that they may not stay that way Mhmm.

Ellen: 01:37:03

And coming comfortable with that. Not having a plan makes me uncomfortable, but I am comfortable with the plan changing later. Like so that's kind of where I've landed. So I love this work. I really, really, really love this work.

Ellen: 01:37:21

I would love to become hired as a full time staff chaplain immediately after this in pursuit of my board certification. After I complete this, this residency in December, still need 2 of clinical time Mhmm. To qualify for board certification amongst other things, writing situations and interviews and all the things. But I still need, you know, 2,000 hours. So, you can work full time.

Ellen: 01:38:00

You can work part time. You can work PRN. I don't know. I'm open right now. The unfortunate truth about chaplaincy is that there are not a lot of job avail there's not a lot of positions funded for chaplaincy.

T.J.: 01:38:16

Okay.

Ellen: 01:38:17

And that's just is what it is. A lot of the smaller, like, rural, regional hospitals or non faith based hospitals are going to try to rely on volunteer chaplains, which may be simply local ministers or somebody who really just wants to help. And I do I like and I I appreciate that to an extent. The amount of work that goes into being a chaplain. As of last November, the chaplain role in our hospital has become the clinical role.

Ellen: 01:38:57

It is weird, and chaplains are now clinicians. And

T.J.: 01:39:03

describe more in detail what that means.

Ellen: 01:39:06

It means that it's no longer just like a like a bonus, like grippy socks, like, not just something that you can have when you come to the hospital. It's a clinician, a person that can be involved in developing a care plan, making a spiritual and emotional assessment about what your actual needs are, what would impede or impact, your medical care and medical decisions, and, how to effectively be a liaison between patients and staff sometimes I have other parts of the care team being an active part of the care team. So it's it's not going to bedside and it can be, I guess, sometimes, but tell me what you think about your Jesus. Like and there's so many people that, you know, you go in and then they say, hi. I'm a chaplain, and they think, oh, I'm good with Jesus.

Ellen: 01:40:09

I'm I'm straight. I've made my peace with the Lord, and I know where I'm going. Thank you very much. Have a good day. Mhmm.

Ellen: 01:40:15

And and truly, that's not happy to talk about it, but it's it's not the goal. And, when you think about how tied in your spirit is to your person, to your whole person, it absolutely should be it absolutely should be addressed whenever you come to the hospital. I mean, how your body is physically feeling absolutely affects your mental and your spiritual health. Right? I mean, you can feel, frustrated and angry and confused and lonely and isolated.

Ellen: 01:41:01

Why is God doing this to me? I feel so encouraged. Maybe I'm supposed to die. Maybe I deserve this. Like, there's so many things that can weigh on a person's spirit.

Ellen: 01:41:11

And the mind is a very powerful thing, and the spirit is a very powerful thing. And it impacts our ability to recover, to have hope. So I think it's a very exciting thing that we've become clinicians. There there's some there's some fear there also that it's becoming monetized. And with the medical coding and and things that come with that.

Ellen: 01:41:38

Like, do I need to rush along my visit so that I can check a box and so that Medicare will cover this visit? Like, that's not what we want to happen.

T.J.: 01:41:46

Yeah. So really, if I hear you correctly, the role of a chaplain in the medical environments is evolving and developing and to be determined in the coming years?

Ellen: 01:42:05

It I I believe it is always evolving, certainly. What I'm saying

T.J.: 01:42:10

you assuming that you're the expert because you're on the cutting edge of

Ellen: 01:42:14

Mhmm.

T.J.: 01:42:15

Preparing for chaplaincy.

Ellen: 01:42:17

Absolutely. Yes. I am. I'm a profesh. Okay?

Ellen: 01:42:22

I I know all the things now. I've been doing this for, like, 9 whole months. I know. Listen. But, truly, what I've found to be so meaningful and so powerful is the opportunity to be with, journey with, and sit with, people in the uncomfortable spaces that people don't like to be in.

Ellen: 01:42:51

It's not comfortable to have questions. It's not comfortable to wonder why to feel like you're not allowed to ask because it might it might exhibit that you have bad faith. So you sit around with unprocessed baggage for a long time weighing on your soul. You know? It's it's the safe spaces that we need to be able to explore what is impacting us.

T.J.: 01:43:16

Mhmm. And

Ellen: 01:43:17

that's more than a back surgery sometimes.

T.J.: 01:43:22

So let me ask you this. As a minister and then as somebody who is back in school, in essence, in preparation for a new avenue of ministry. Those safe spaces to have those deep faith conversations about life and death, the meaning of life. How do we create that space where the person not only feels safe, but wants to talk about the joys and the sorrows and the fears and the wonderful aspects of being human.

Ellen: 01:44:04

I think the biggest part is just listening. And we have a lot of work to do with listening. We don't like to be in the midst of pain. We don't like to see others that we love in pain. We don't like to see anybody that we think we could love in pain.

Ellen: 01:44:22

Oh, this sweet lady, I don't want you to feel sad. You can you can go to heaven when you die, and that'll be wonderful because think of all the people you'll see. That's not that's not the point. You know? So, honestly, listening to what they're really trying to say and not trying to fix it.

T.J.: 01:44:40

Mhmm.

Ellen: 01:44:41

I mean, how many times do we just vent? And we're not expecting whoever's listening to to do anything about it. We just wanna get it out. Right? And to just say, wow.

Ellen: 01:44:55

Yeah. That sucks. That's that's it it seems like it would be hard to move on from that. Or in whatever it is, you know, just listen and not not have the answers.

T.J.: 01:45:14

Wow. That would be full circle for you.

Ellen: 01:45:16

That is full circle. I don't have to have the answers.

T.J.: 01:45:23

Two questions for you. Two more questions. Ellen, if you could describe the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in one sentence to somebody that knew nothing about our denomination, what words would you use? Oh,

Ellen: 01:45:42

you might have to do several takes on this one.

T.J.: 01:45:46

Nope. You just give one go. Whatever comes up.

Ellen: 01:45:49

Go. No pressure.

T.J.: 01:45:51

You can use adjectives, descriptive words, nouns. What would you want people to know about the denomination that you serve and live in and worship with?

Ellen: 01:46:04

A reformed Presbyterian tradition that prides itself on its connection, being connectional

T.J.: 01:46:19

Mhmm.

Ellen: 01:46:21

And was founded upon making spirit led choices over what was expected of us

T.J.: 01:46:29

Alright.

Ellen: 01:46:30

Who also ordains women.

T.J.: 01:46:33

Okay. Alright. I spoke too soon. You weren't done yet. How do you reach Bonnie

Ellen: 01:46:38

There was a semicolon. Semicolon.

T.J.: 01:46:40

Alright.

Ellen: 01:46:41

It's still one sentence. Okay.

T.J.: 01:46:43

Next question. Name a movie that has really, really impacted your faith and your life. It could have been something you watched when you were little or something that you just watched recently, but really spoke to you and spoke to you in a manner of surprise like you didn't expect it.

Ellen: 01:47:07

I love movies. I love TV. I love books. So it's really hard for me to, like, really hone in, but I think that probably the most influential series of books that became movies for me were as any good millennial my age, the rest of you I don't know. I'm just kidding.

Ellen: 01:47:37

We're gonna scratch that.

T.J.: 01:47:40

One of

Ellen: 01:47:40

the most influential, Harry Potter, the Harry Potter series. And,

T.J.: 01:47:51

That would be a typical millennial response.

Ellen: 01:47:53

It is a typical millennial response, but hear me out. I was trying to think really what it was that hooked me. Right? That's a good CPE question. What is it that hooked you?

Ellen: 01:48:04

What draws you in so much that what did it what is it about a movie or an experience or whatever? There's probably several musicals and movies and TV shows that have, like, triggered these really profound questions that that I've had. But I think what hooked me with Harry Potter when I was 11 years old and watched the movie before I read it because I thought it was for nerds, I fell in love with it, and I watched it over and over and over and over again. Why? Because it was a story of somebody with peculiar peculiarities that were seen as dangerous, that were seen as unwelcome, that were seen as other, and that in a different context was his gift.

Ellen: 01:49:03

Mhmm. What were his curses and what made him so unloved by his family, what made him such a threat to their very existence and how they understood the world and life to be whenever he was surrounded by the right community and the right, friends, the right support, and, people that could identify his gifts and help him hone in the hone in on those gifts. You know, those are his his his his downfalls became his victories. I mean, it and is what

T.J.: 01:49:45

True definition

Ellen: 01:49:46

of a

T.J.: 01:49:46

hero. Yeah. True definition of a a hero. Ellen, I'm so glad we have this conversation today and thank you for sharing and taking me on this journey of ups and downs in your life. And I'm very glad to hear that you were up and focused on a new aspect of your ministry, and I hope it places you in people's lives where they do feel safe and they can share and heal in their sharing.

T.J.: 01:50:29

Thank you for listening to the faith journey of Ellen Hudson Clark. To hear more amazing people, follow Cumberland Road on Apple, Spotify, and your favorite podcasting service. To close, here are some words of Paul Tillich from his book, The Eternal Now. Thankfulness has taken hold of us. Not because something special has happened to us, but just because we are. Because we participate in the glory and the power of being. It is a mood of joy, but more than a mood, more than a transitory emotion. It is a state of being, and it is more than joy. It is a joy that includes the feeling that is given, that we cannot accept it without bringing some sacrifice, namely the sacrifice of thanks.