George Estes - Formed, Shaped And Made New By The Gospel
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. This is the Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. On this episode, the Reverend Doctor. George Estes joins me. In our conversation, George shares what it is like to be a lifelong Cumberland Presbyterian. He talks about his faith and reflects upon how difficult it would be to have a basis for morality, ethics and compassion apart from the Gospel. George has ministered in Tennessee, Indiana, Arkansas and Texas. He served the denomination's missions agency for twenty years as the director of evangelism and new church development and as the missions ministry team leader before his retirement. He is a regular writer for the adult curriculum The Encounter and he's a contributor to the daily devotional These Days. Enjoy today's episode of the Cumberland Road, Reverend Doctor George Estes.
T.J.:So, George, let's begin with a meaningful experience with God. And this can be something that has been very recent or it can be something that has occurred in the past, but a meaningful experience that you have had with god.
George:Well, I would go. I I guess I would go back to last Sunday. I was preaching in Holly Springs, Mississippi and the message that I had prepared for the day was one that I was not very confident of. I have decided during the summer months to concentrate a little bit on lesser known portions of scripture. And so I've been preaching from the twelve minuteor prophets.
George:I preached on Haggai and Habakkuk and this past Sunday was Obadiah. And the previous two messages did not go well from my standpoint. So I was a little apprehensive about this one. And I told folks a story, and I'll tell it here, that when I was teaching a class a few years ago, I asked the students what their favorite Bible book was, and people said John or Matthew or some people referred to the letters of Paul. Young fellow said Obadiah.
George:I said Obadiah, really? And I wanted to know exactly why he had selected Obadiah. Well, reason was his middle name was Obadiah. I said that's as good a reason as any. Well, that point on in my message, I felt sort of relieved, sort of convicted, if you will, about sharing the message of Obadiah, which is not a very edifying message in some ways.
George:It's judgmental and so forth. But there are some glimmers of Gospel hope in that Old Testament book, and I think that one evidence of God's work in my life was to make something positive happen in a setting like this, when I was not confident of it at all. All. So that's one. And then, a number of years ago I was on a day hike in the mountains of New Mexico just by myself.
George:And it was a beautiful day. Aspens were glimmering on the mountains. I found a mountain stream I followed along for quite a little while. I began getting hungry about noon, and I packed a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for my lunch. And I walked along the stream and I found a large boulder, large rock on the side of the stream.
George:And if that didn't look like an altar, I'm not sitting here. And I thought, you know, this would be a nice place to pause and have my lunch. And I approached the rock and sat down on it and it just felt increasingly like communion to me. And as I was sitting there and eating my peanut butter and jelly and drinking from a bottle of water, I had the Lord's Supper. And I just felt so close to the Lord at that point.
George:There have been plenty of times when I felt far away from God, so when that happened it was a, it was really a blessing. And then, I've gone through several periods of bereavement in my life. Going through one now, as a matter of fact. And often in grief, one feels alone or estranged, not so close to God. And I've visited with many other people about this, and for for some of us, the experience of loss brings us closer to God.
George:And we sense God's presence in a different way. That's been true for me. Not that I have always such a close walk with the Lord, not at all. But there are times when I have felt an abiding presence.
T.J.:What does that feel like for you? That abiding presence of God?
George:I can't I guess it's a kind of assurance. Not that everything is gonna be okay. I think that's kinda glib, but just an assurance, a sense of peace or well-being or serenity, sense of kinda groundedness.
T.J.:Mhmm. Yeah. You know, I I guess we shoulda I shoulda have said this at the beginning of our recording is this is the first time the Cumberland Road has actually been on the road. All recordings previous to to this one, all the guests have been through technology. This is the first time been able to have a face to face conversation in person with with someone on the faith journey for Cumberland Road.
T.J.:So thank you for braving to be in the same room with me.
George:Well, it was scary, but I decided to take it on.
T.J.:And, George, if we were to meet as strangers, and and there would be some folks who may listen to this podcast, could you take a couple minutes, few minutes, and and, tell everybody who you are and where you're from and and just sort of brief introduction of reverend doctor George Estes.
George:Well, I'm a lifelong Cumberland Presbyterian. By that, I mean, from the cradle to the present. I'm a Cumberland Presbyterian. I was born into a pastor's home in East Tennessee at the very end, or close to the end of World War II. And I was a child of the manse, literally.
George:And one of the things that those of us who are preacher's kids become aware of is that we have more than two parents. I had lots of parents growing up. One Sunday afternoon, used to have afternoon church, Sunday evening church, and we had a worship service where my dad was preaching. In those days, my sister, younger sister, I would sit on the front pew while my dad was in the pulpit and my mother was in the choir. And my sister and I, and perhaps one or two other kids on the front pew, we sort of started cutting up a little bit, we were preschoolers at the time, and all of a sudden my ear felt a terrible pain.
George:The person sitting behind me flipped my ear. Nobody would have ever done that to any other child in the church. But I was the preacher's kid, and it was okay to correct me. I've tracked that in my life since. I've seen it also in my own children, how when I was a pastor, other people in the congregation would take it upon themselves to correct my own children for something.
George:That would not happen to any other kid in the church. It would happen only in the minister's family, and honestly, I can understand how some young people are disenchanted with the church if they grow up in a minister's home. Didn't happen to me, and I'm glad it didn't, but I have known people that it did happen to. So I've been a part of the church all my life, literally, all my life. And when I decided to go to college, I wanted to go to Bethel College and went to a church related school because I had already sort of committed to going into the ministry.
George:Not because my dad did. In fact, my dad tried to discourage me from going into the ministry. He said, you can do anything else, do it, you know. He loved the ministry, but he didn't much want me to have to go through what sometimes ministers experience. But I was committed to it.
George:I felt committed to it and still do. I've been in the ministry over fifty years. And in that length of time, I have no idea how many sermons I preached, how many churches I've actually preached in. Used to do quite a number of revivals. I was fortunate to be asked to do that over the years.
George:And so in addition to my pastoral work, I did some evangelistic work in revivals. And so I preached, and I've done a lot of supply preaching since I retired. So I've had an opportunity to be in many different congregations, some even from other denominations. I've been a common presbyterian all these years. I was been a pastor for a little over twenty three years before I came to work for the General Assembly Board of Missions at that time, now it's the Missions Ministry Team.
George:And I came to work there 01/01/1994. Had been a pastor in Tennessee, Indiana, Arkansas, and Texas prior to that. And so I was at the missions agency until I retired in 2014. In the last three years I was the team leader of the missions ministry team and it's been a blessing to be associated with the congregations that I've served and the denomination that I have served.
T.J.:And that's how you and I got to working together because you were my supervisor. And shortly after that hire, you were like, I I can't work with this fella anymore.
George:Well, that was one of the determining factors in my, retirement, of course. But
T.J.:Well, you've shared some different places where, god has taken you in in your your life journey and in your faith journey. I could you share for a few minutes about how your relationship with Jesus Christ has given you purpose, purpose in in your vocation, you know, we've kinda talked about that for a few minutes, but also just purpose in your daily life and and those those times when the when you were feeling at a distance with God, but also those those times of closeness as well. So how has that relationship with Jesus Christ given you purpose?
George:Well, it has defined my life. Certainly defined my life work. Mhmm. But more than that, my approach to life as I've studied the gospels in particular, the way the Lord Jesus taught, the way he dealt with people, the example he shared, it's always been so challenging to me. And as I've thought about passages like the Sermon on the Mount, I've recognized that if people actually took seriously what he was saying in a passage like that, what a difference it would make in the world.
George:So I've tried to try to think about how my life might be shaped by what I perceived Jesus was doing and and how he lived. And, you know, I like to think that he has changed me some. When I was younger, especially young in the ministry, I had a tendency to be somewhat judgmental and many would say hypocritical in that regard, but judgmental, say the least, and self righteous and all that kind of stuff. And that didn't serve me well. And I have I think I've learned over the years to be less that way.
George:More accepting, more tolerant, more understanding of other people and even cutting myself a little slack sometimes. But I think that's how Christ has changed me in some ways, given me a little bit broader perspective. I have reflected often on the passage where Jesus says, other sheep I have that are not of this fold. I really thought about that. And so just because people are not of my stripe, not of my fold, not mean that they're not beloved by the Lord.
George:It does not mean that they don't have as much a relationship with God as I have and so forth. In fact, have also felt that one way the church has shaped me is that so many people that I have admired and appreciated and loved are Christians. And if there wasn't anything to Christianity, don't think that'd be true. The people that I have loved and admired and respected so much are people who have been formed, shaped, made fresh, made new by the gospel of Christ. And if for no other reason, to me that's reason enough to wanna be a Christian myself.
George:And I've I've followed in the footsteps of some wonderful mentors and teachers, some of them in my own family, but beyond that, you know, I'm I'm thinking about the people that have had such a big impact on my life, Hubert Morrow and Doctor. John Ed Gardner and Doctor. Virgil Todd and so many others that just absolutely inspired me to want to be not only the best minister I could be, but the best person I could be. And to follow in in in their footsteps and to learn from it. Morris Pepper, Joe Matlock, people that I'm sure your listeners will know some of these folks or at least know these names from the past.
George:They really impacted my life. And there have been lots of women, Beverly St. John, for example, and others that are just Cornelia Swain just have been such an inspiration to me. Mhmm.
T.J.:It it's great to be able to draw from that well of people, past and present, to help give us guidance, you know, and recall, you know, advice and wisdom that was shared and but also being able to to pull from them currently as well. Think the world would be a better place if we shared some of our our warmness towards one another and our thoughts of fondness towards one another and inspiration while we're together, while we're around instead of waiting until funerals and graveside services. And we wait until I I think the world would be transformed if we shared our thoughts with each other and what we mean to one another while they're still here, while we're together. Well, you've mentioned some great people, some great names, and well known names in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church that have influenced your your faith journey and as have enriched the journey along the way. Was there anyone else that you wanted to add to the list?
George:Well, there are just so many. I've just had wonderful relationships with laypersons, great leaders in the churches where where I have served, the McSpadens in Rose City, the Martins in Lubbock, Texas, on and on as people just had such a vibrant day by day walk with Christ and who, without ever being ostentatious about it, let me know what being a a dedicated Christian was Mhmm. Like. And I've had the privilege and blessing and challenge of serving in funeral services for some of these people. I've seen them pass away, been with them.
George:And I'll have to say that a part of my heart left with each one, but I know where they are. And that's, to me, such a great consolation, great blessing. And they have helped encourage me when it was oftentimes, the road was difficult. George,
T.J.:we've talked about how people have had a great impact on your life and your growing up years and in your ministry. What would you share with somebody who hasn't been as fortunate as as you in terms of people who have helped shaped your faith and your understanding of God and your relationship? What is it about the Christian faith that you would want others to to know about? Why would why do I want to be a follower of
George:why
T.J.:Jesus Christ? I thought about that quite a bit because as I
George:mentioned, my whole frame of reference has been church life. But what if I had not been in that situation? How would I have come to faith, or would I? I think I would have actually, because the influence of some of the people that have crossed paths with beyond the church life would have helped me to see that. And also, I think my love for scripture would have come true no matter what.
George:But I can certainly relate to people who say, you know, that's not been my experience and I don't know what you're talking about when you talk about church. Let's talk about it from the standpoint of just everyday life. I can understand how someone feels about that, but for me it's difficult to find a basis for morality, for ethics, for compassion apart from the Gospel. That's the way I think I would want to approach it. So many people that I've known who are not particularly religious, but are very dedicated to humanitarian service or have a particular cause that they're fighting for injustice and so forth.
George:I usually make a connection there because that is so much a part of what the Gospel is about. And and most most people that are not religious don't see that connection. And so it's helpful once in a while for us to draw that connection in their behalf. I've I've thought about it that way. They the other thing is that that for me, the the Christian life is not easy.
George:It's, it's, it doesn't have the kind of glamour or the kind of appeal that some other ways of life might have. It's a it's a call to service. It's a call to sacrifice, to deny oneself and so forth. Those are those are not particularly popular notions in 2021. Most people are me first and I'll I'll, you know, get what I can when I can.
George:So, there's things about the gospel that are not all that appealing to the modern mind. And so, it's a little bit of a challenge to be a Christian representative or an agent of Christ in these times, and to be able to bridge the distance between what we think of as being so important and what the secular person thinks of as a priority. Mhmm.
T.J.:And we can be great examples of expressing the life of Christ through through our our hands and our feet and our voices. I've always felt, especially here in the in this century, as Cumberland Presbyterians, we do pretty good with our hands and our feet, but our voices need to be shared more in terms of what the love of Christ means to the world.
George:I think articulating our faith is always a challenge for us, especially as I mentioned earlier in the conversation, the tendency to become a little bit judgmental in that process. And we have to very, very much guard against that. Right. But if evangelism is not verbalized in some way. People just think you're a good person, and that's not a good idea, because the whole idea is to give God glory versus for us to be thought of as a nice person or something like that.
George:It's a whole different thing. But the verbalization, vocalization, putting it into words, that's a real challenge for most of us.
T.J.:It is. One of the questions I like to ask each guest is where do you see God working in the world today? And that question in and of itself is can lead to a form of evangelism because we are articulating where we see and feel and experience the presence of God in our lives. So, George, I posed a question to you. Where do you see God working in the world today?
George:I think I see God at work in in so many different places, but, you know, the efforts and appeals for justice around the world today in particular. But, you know, when I was with missions, some things happened that just drew this out for me. For example, there was a terrible tsunami in Japan during my time with missions. And I saw an outpouring from Cumberland Presbyterians. It just amazed me how people tried to respond to that concern and that need.
George:Then there were earthquakes. I've been involved with response teams in Colombia, Haiti, seen mission work teams in places that have been devastated by tornadoes and floods. Ordinary Cumberland Presbyterian folks taking their time, usually vacation time, taking their own resources, paying their own way to help out in time of need. And to me, this is the way we as Christians and as Cumberland Presbyterians in particular can act out that hands and feet, as you were saying, but also just our presence a way of communicating. I had an experience one time when I was in Colombia.
George:We were working after the earthquake in Armenia, and one of the people who lived on the street where we were working to try to rebuild a home stopped to ask, What are you folks doing this for? Why are you here? And it got me thinking, why are we here? We're here to help build this house back, of course, but that's only part of why we're here. We're here to express concern, solidarity, to express love and care for this one little family here who lost their home and for others that are just like them.
George:And we're here to somehow show God's love in a situation that is almost desperate for love. And I have known people like Eugene Leslie and John Loveless and Sam Sutterth and Ollie McClung and on and on. People who have devoted their lives literally to helping other people in cases of great crisis and difficulty try to rebuild their lives. Oh, what an what a testimony that is to me. And all I was was basically a little observer, but I saw I saw them at work and it was an inspiration.
George:Mhmm.
T.J.:You have been part of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church all your life, you said, from the cradle, and you have served the church as a person who has received and has given so much to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, what ideas, what hopes do you have for this denomination presently and in the future?
George:Well, I I do have some hopes for the church. I I'm hoping for reunification for one thing. It's been a source of great concern and humiliation actually that we have two denominations when we should have one. And in fact, I have a kind of an ecumenical spirit about me anyway that would like to see greater cooperation within our denomination and other sister denominations. Not talking necessarily about organic union of any kind, I don't care about that, but I am interested in working together with other Christians in unified witness.
George:One of the things I guess I would have as a way of talking about what I see for the church is that the church would be the church in mission, that it would actually try to live up to the calling that it has. In in some ways, I guess this is my judgmental part coming out again. In some ways, I kinda see the current situation in our church. It's almost like the church at Ephesus in the book of Revelation. You've lost your first love.
George:Think there is some of that in us. I'm afraid there is that zeal for the gospel, that excitement for being God's person in the world, that commitment to being a church dedicated to the service of the Lord and the service of the community. I think some of that kind of gets rusty. And in the time of the pandemic I saw us responding in some new ways for technology, which is it's a great, great blessing. And I think that we'll increasingly make use of the tools that God, I believe, has provided for us under these circumstances.
George:But we do it kicking and screaming all the way. We are not necessarily thrilled about it and we see all kinds of difficulties associated with it some of that is just in the category of what else is new. Life is hard, you just might as well face it. And I think we use our gospel experience, our experience with the Lord as a way of navigating the various pathways that we find ourselves having to go in. So, would say, I would hope the church can renew its commitment to its mission in the world and and stop being so interested in pointing out one another's faults.
T.J.:We would really have to cast our eyes in a different direction, George, if we followed your hope and ideas for the church.
George:I think that's right. Jesus said to his disciples, look up. See, the harvest is ripe. In other words, we have to get our mind off of ourselves, get our eyes off of our own internal experience, and look out there. We can do it.
T.J.:We're very much capable.
George:I think so. We have done it. Yeah. We can do it.
T.J.:We're we're a strong family as Presbyterians and specifically as Cumberland Presbyterians. I share your hope, and I'm open to ideas to get us to look up. George, how can we continue to follow you on your faith journey?
George:Well, since most of my journey is right here in my house, it's not that difficult. You can contact me by email or by mail or by telephone. All my contact information is in the General Assembly yearbook. Once in a while I have the opportunity to write for the Encounter Sunday School lessons or for these days devotional guides. Once in a while, I teach at Paws.
George:I'm going to be teaching at Paws this next month, and I still do a regular preaching responsibility every Sunday, and you can find that. That I'm I'm serving a congregation that's without a pastor and it's a Presbyterian church in Holly Springs, Mississippi. It's about 40 miles from where I live. And so it's on Facebook Live if you have an interest in that. Other than that, I'm not sure anybody would want to follow what I'm doing.
George:I don't think I have mentioned that a part of my challenge in retirement has been to reorient my approach to life because I am serving as a caregiver for my wife, Janie, who is a stroke patient. And for the last four and a half years, I've tried to learn how to cook, and I don't know how to cook still. I've tried to learn how to take care of the house, and I'm sure a terrible housekeeper, and on and on. So anybody that wants to follow my journey is welcome to come by. We live in Germantown, Tennessee.
George:We're welcome to see you anytime.
T.J.:And you may put your guests to work as in preparing a meal, helping clean up, maybe work in the yard.
George:Glad for you to do that. All of the above.
T.J.:George, thank you for for being a guest today. Thank you for being a friend, and thank you for being a mentor to me. And I've really been looking forward to being able to to share this this time for the podcast with you. I appreciate it.
George:Thank you, TJ, for the invitation to do this, and it's been a blessing. I'm glad you're doing the podcast, and I know it's it's been meaningful to lots of folks. We appreciate it.
T.J.:George, thank you. And thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with us on our next journey down Cumberland Road.
