Cumberland Road

T.J.: 00:04

You are listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. Greg Tucker is the guest for this episode of Cumberland Road. Greg is the minister at the Faith Fellowship Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Lenoir City, Tennessee. In our faith conversation, Greg shares how the church has been a functional family throughout his life and how we can find God's presence in everyday surroundings, or as Greg shares, finding God behind every bush. Enjoy this conversation with Greg Tucker.

T.J.: 00:58

Greg, I have a question that puzzles me. I noticed that, on your resume that your undergraduate work, from North Greenville University in South Carolina was in church administration. So what is church administration? What were you thinking as a young man at that time?

Greg: 01:21

One of the things and and to give you just a little bit of a backdrop to that story, I originally attended my first two years of college at Union University in Jackson, Tennessee, where I'm from, West Tennessee. And in doing that, I got married, after my sophomore year in college, and and and I had promised my father-in-law that his daughter would graduate college. So I dropped out of college for a little while so she could finish. And then to pick it back up in around 1992, we had moved to South Carolina. And as we moved there, a few years later, it really became a burden to finish college on my heart, my last 2 years.

Greg: 02:08

And so I was having a conversation one day with the music director in the church that we were in at the time, and he happened to have some connections to North Greenville College. It was then now it's North Greenville University, and it's actually in a little bitty town called Tyreville, South Carolina. And it was a junior college at in South Carolina in the, South Carolina Baptist Convention had taken over the school and wanted to make it a 4 year college, And they were offering only 2 degrees at the time, and one was in nursing and the other was in church related vocations or church administration. Okay. And,

T.J.: 02:51

now were did you move out there for, attending the college, or were you already living in the area?

Greg: 03:00

We were already living in the area. Some family circumstances. My wife is from, the upstate of South Carolina, Pecan, South Carolina. And, we had moved back there with some family circumstances that were unfolding. And, while we were there, I was out of ministry at the time, but I was a part of Rhonda's home church.

T.J.: 03:20

Mhmm.

Greg: 03:20

And and so some relationships there had opened up the door to look at at North Greenville. And so we were actually in it was kind of a odd situation. They had not been accredited yet. They had to have a graduating class before they could have accreditation in in its final status. And so I was part of the first 4 year graduating class of North Greenville University.

Greg: 03:48

And and it was really kinda, neat because there were actually the professors that were a part of that program had come they have real strong seminary background. So I actually in my college degree in the major part of it, I actually got a real foundational seminary education because I've actually taken, Greek, New Testament Greek. I've actually taken about 15 or 16 semesters.

T.J.: 04:18

Good grief.

Greg: 04:19

All totaled, with Seminary and with what I did at North Greenville. But they did a great job of really walking you through, an education in church related vocations and church administration.

T.J.: 04:40

What makes it the administration part? I mean, because I I just envision paperwork, I'm falling into the stereotypes here. Right. Or maybe let me rephrase my question. So working through a church administration degree, how is it used in the church?

Greg: 05:04

Basically, what they tried to do was they tried not to pigeonhole the students that were in that major into one certain area. Mhmm. And so they took a wide approach to their education, with it. And they they would walk through the the different dynamics of youth ministry as part of their education. They'd walk through, as assistant pastors of some kind and kind of auxiliary ministries, outside of the pastoral role and the pastor role.

Greg: 05:37

So they walk through a lot of avenues in their classes in relationship to the different administration of church roles, of ministry and trying to introduce you to that.

T.J.: 05:51

So really

Greg: 05:52

make sense.

T.J.: 05:53

Yeah. You were on, for that university, on the cutting edge of experimentation then. So Yes. Those professors were really given some freedom to sort of make the make the syllabus and make the course work, as they deemed fit. I mean, that must be a dream if as an instructor, as a professor.

Greg: 06:18

It it it was. We were a small class. If I remember correctly, there was only there was less than 50 of us that graduated in that first graduating class. And this everything was under a lot of scrutiny of the accreditation. SACS, I think that's what it was called at the time.

Greg: 06:37

And the students, they got to scrutinize the the classes you were taking, you know, in a really deep way. But they were also interacting with the students, interviewing them, trying to figure out what the how how good of a an experience you were having with those level of classes. I had never been through anything like that.

T.J.: 07:01

And

Greg: 07:01

so that became a real interesting part of the journey too.

T.J.: 07:05

It was part of the administration Yes. Outside the classroom, apparently.

Greg: 07:09

Outside the classroom. Yep.

T.J.: 07:11

Alright. So what did you do with this church administration degree? You graduated and we can bounce around in the timeline of your faith journey, Greg.

Greg: 07:20

Right.

T.J.: 07:21

So you you have a newly minted diploma underneath your arm. And what what were your plans? What were you gonna do with that?

Greg: 07:29

My plans were to go to Beeson Divinity School at Sanford University. My old testament professor at North Greenville and my, and the new testament professor from North Greenville, they both had connections with some people that either taught or were in the administration of Beeson Divinity School at Sanford University in Birmingham. And I really wanted to study under Timothy George. I had, followed quite a bit of his his work through the years, and he was the dean of the school. He was handpicked to be the dean of, Sanford.

Greg: 08:06

And so when we were preparing to move, but my best friend at North Greenville was on staff at a church as the music children and fellowships, director, at a church that was within 7 or 8 miles of North Greenville. And he didn't ask my permission to do this, but he submitted my name for an associate pastor role at his church. And, and and lo and behold, he had to come and tell me because they wanted to talk to me. And and so, that kind of snowballed, into a little bit of a detour to actually practice my degree from college to be an associate pastor. I was associate pastor of outreach and education and, senior adults at Mount Lebanon Baptist Church.

Greg: 08:58

And, so, and and to be honest with you, I wanted to go on to Beeson, but the Lord wanted me to take this little detour and, be a part of this church. And, and it's a very memorable part of my journey too. Really enjoyed it.

T.J.: 09:15

Well, did you imagine yourself in the role of full time ministry while you were a student there at North Greenville?

Greg: 09:28

I did. That that's always been, the benchmark for me or the, the prize of the high calling, was full time ministry, because I accepted a call to pastor as an as an older teenager. I was, or into, you know, the gospel ministry, at some point, as much as I could define it at that age. And my pastor then had taken me under his wing and really nurtured me, and nurtured that hunger to be, you know, in full time ministry. And what was really, strange, and kinda unique about my journey, that didn't happen, immediately full time ministry.

Greg: 10:12

Didn't, but, part time ministry did and being by vocational, to take care of my family, but still honor my calling as well. That was in place for a long time. And I'll be honest with you, being bivocational was the most difficult thing that I've ever encountered in life at that point. And, I worked a full time job and and pastored, church by vocationally and and was in youth ministry prior to that. And, well, there were a lot of days, that I was in a factory where I was just praying to God.

Greg: 10:46

It might have well have been my pit like Joseph was in. Just praying, Lord, let me be full time in ministry. And it did and it did. It took a while for that to unfold for me. Mhmm.

T.J.: 10:59

And you were a young man too. So you were, you were anxious, I would imagine, that I'm I'm projecting myself, at that particular age, anxious to be able to get out there and and serve serve god through the the church. And, you know, being bivocational almost seems like, well, that's a distraction to full time ministry. Now, I don't wanna deny the fact that my probably best moments of ministry was when I was bivocational, tri vocational, quad vocational, etcetera. Because it really does put you out into the community as a minister, with opportunities to share the gospel and share it in a language, in a way that others may be able to hear and see and experience through you.

T.J.: 11:56

And I I'd have to say, my best pastoral care moments, if those exist, they were never in a church office. Right. They were they were always, you know, on the tailgate of the pickup truck or, you know, in the front of somebody's house or with a coworker out in the parking lot or whatever it may be. Those were, probably my best moments in terms of pastoral caregiving because they were ripe opportunities to be able to share the gospel. So, I understand I've done both and who knows what the future may bring.

T.J.: 12:40

There may be future opportunities for the same. I don't know. Right. But but, I I would think looking back in my own life, that, anxiousness to be able to anything that was in the way of that preparation for ministry and opportunity for ministry seemed like a barrier or a distraction. And, so I don't want people who are doing bi vocational ministry think that Greg Greg is against it.

T.J.: 13:10

It's also the reality of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and many denominations as well.

Greg: 13:16

Yep. And one of my things about it now, I look back on it now, and I would give anything to be able to go back and redo that those years with the perspectives that I have now. Because now I tend to think some days that by vocational would be more freeing than being full time, and that's that's kind of strange. That's a real struggle sometimes inside of me.

T.J.: 13:40

Yeah. There you know, when I had those moments, I had to compartmentalize. So there was that separation of of, I have to focus on this particular project or job or, goal at this particular time because it's required of whichever whether it's ministry or, another vocation, you know, I couldn't allow that to bleed in too too much because then nothing was done well. And again, this was for me. So there was an opportunity to where, you had those moments of complete separation.

T.J.: 14:20

And, also, serving a congregation where you are bivocational, it does provide the the the local congregation to develop leadership where the responsibilities of leadership is shared by many instead of just one. It moves that moves us away from hiring the professional to where the community of faith is the one exemplifying the mission and the good news of of Christ. It isn't the paid professional. Alright.

Greg: 14:53

And and you hit on on something that I think is really important. One is, you know, wherever you are and whatever you are, learn to be present in the moment. Yeah. Whether that's on the tailgate or whether that's in the church sanctuary, you know, that sort of thing. But, the, other aspect of that by vocational, ministry tends to lend itself, to putting yourself in ministry positions more easily than being a full time pastor.

Greg: 15:28

Mhmm. Because I find I have to work. I have to find and almost invent ways sometimes to put myself Mhmm. More in the world to be able to minister and, to reach people, and those sort of things. And the other trap about full time ministry is that if you're uncomfortable getting out into the world to minister, then your office can can become a place that you can hide as a full time minister and avoid some of that.

Greg: 16:02

And I you know, that that's a trap that I really, really, really try to fight hard, not to fall into.

T.J.: 16:10

How do you, what is working for you currently to not fall into that comfort zone of just being totally focused on, in in your case, Faith Fellowship Cumberland Presbyterian Church? What do you do to help get you out into the community more?

Greg: 16:28

One of the things that I really liked, that Faith Fellowship, was doing and and did when I could their expectation of office hours is from 9:30 to 12:30, Monday through Thursday. The rest of that time, I'm expected to be out in the the field, you know, doing ministry with people. And so, I think the way you structure your days plays a real important role, and the mindset of being intentional. Okay. I've got one to the rest of the day that I don't have to be in the church office, so I've gotta be intentional about going somewhere to do something to minister to somebody.

Greg: 17:13

And, so you have to be a good self manager of your your time, and you have to be intentional about your efforts of what you're gonna do. But I think the way you structure your day, and what you do with that structure, you know, determines a a lot about your ministry opportunities that you have.

T.J.: 17:33

Yeah. Jim Henderson, he wrote the the book, Evangelism Without Additives. And he talks about counting conversations, you know, out in the community, you know, intentional conversations, and connecting faith to those conversations. And, I thought about that as you were talking about being intentional out into the community. You know, what could that look like?

T.J.: 18:03

It could just be connecting with that store clerk

Greg: 18:09

or,

T.J.: 18:09

you know, the person working behind the counter at a at a fast food restaurant and developing relationships. That way, we have these reoccurring opportunities to get to know these individuals, on a regular basis and be a part become part of their lives. Well, Greg, what did the young Greg want to be, when he grew up? What did Greg, 5, 6, 7, 8 years old, what did he dream to be when he became, well, your age now?

Greg: 18:44

You're you're probably gonna laugh at me. Originally, I wanted to be a cowboy. Okay. Evident through a lot of my Christmas gifts and birthday gifts through the years, early on. But, my formative years were, were difficult, to say the least.

Greg: 19:03

They they were just characterized by quite a few losses. And, there was a real sense early on in my life of of God was there protecting me and providing for me and, and and and communicating with me even though that I didn't fully understand it at the time. But my part of my formative years, my mother always made sure that we were in church. And that was kind of important for us. Well, I grew up in the home of an alcoholic father and, just a lot of dysfunction there.

Greg: 19:41

And and the church became the functional part of my life even from a early age. They became kind of the functional family, that shaped my life. So, I had a lot of leanings, towards the appeal of ministry even in my youngest formative years that, you know, I could establish some understanding. So it moved from being wanting to be a cowboy to be a pastor, eventually. And, and I'd have people in, in the church that I was in as a teenager, you know, they they could kinda see some things developing, and those people would speak into my life.

Greg: 20:24

Not necessarily say I think God's calling you to be a pastor, but I think God really has a purpose for you in your life. And I had a mother that that said that to me a lot through the years. And so it was pretty much shaped inside of me that God had a purpose for my life. And and and then in my teenage years, I had a relationship with my pastor that was just unbelievable. And, my youth directors went on to be missionaries in, Africa.

Greg: 20:56

And through them, the ministry that they had with me, it really opened up the doors to hear the Lord call me in the ministry. And then in my adult life, he's made it very plain that there's a lot of things I cannot do. But one thing I can do is I can speak to the heart of another person about God. And that seems to be, kind of my my gift,

T.J.: 21:21

my strength. You were so as a high school student, you kinda had an idea that you were going to be a minister while your other peers may not have any inkling

Greg: 21:35

Right.

T.J.: 21:36

Or, you know, may have been, you know, a business or, medical doctor or baseball player or whatever it may be, you know.

Greg: 21:44

Yes. Yes. And I have some wondering sometimes because that's really all I've I was a welder for 10 years as a bivocational pastor, 10 or 11 years. And, you know, I've I've always wondered what it would be like to have kind of a what I would call a normal calling in life to be something other than a pastor. What is that like?

Greg: 22:11

Because I I I've never experienced that, sort of thing. And when I have been thrust into that, by vocationally, I struggled with it because I wanted to be a I knew I was meant to be a full time pastor. And so it's it's been an interesting journey in in those regards.

T.J.: 22:30

When you were a teenager, what did you envision the full time ministry to look like? And then compare that to your life experiences and your vocational experiences. Did it meet all those expectations? So we'll start with what did you dream that looked like as a young man and now what does that look like, where you currently are? With all the, you know, just with life and family and work and service, Is it all that it's cracked up to be?

T.J.: 23:07

And more.

Greg: 23:10

The expectation wise, I I think the the way you create ideal expectations gets crashed pretty quickly in ministry. And it and it is a shock. It it is a real shock because I could remember, being in the pastorate especially at a a pretty young age. I think I was 23 when I first pastored a church, and had been in youth ministry in about 2 or 3 other churches prior to that. Youth ministry, there wasn't quite as big a shock as pastoral ministry was.

Greg: 23:52

But, it it it and you just don't have that level of understanding. You still have those, you know, ideals that you have out there that you want the, expectation that the lord's got a way of bringing those back into reality, in in the way church ministry unfolds, sometimes. The one thing that, through the years being a pastor, that's been tough is is balancing the time that you give to your family, and to the time you give to your personal life, and the time that you give to your calling, which turns into your vocation, which can be all consuming if you're not good at setting boundaries.

T.J.: 24:42

Yeah.

Greg: 24:42

And early on, I don't think I was that great at setting boundaries and learning how to do that and balancing pastoral ministry with all the other important things in your life. It it it was kind of maddening for me at first on the inside, trying to figure that out and wondering how in the world did my pastor ever do this, you know, sort of thing. And and he my my my pastor is a teenager. Levi Parish is his name, and he's he's passed away now. But he, he did a really good job with me of kind of showing me what ministry was like.

Greg: 25:21

He was involved in jail ministry, and he would take me with him. And he would actually put me in positions of of preaching, you know, as an older teenager with him there by my side and take me to nursing homes and, and preach and teach there and, those sort of things and and really kinda took me alongside to help me see what pastoral ministry was about. And and and to any pastors that have teenagers that have expressed a calling, that's probably the best thing that you can do for them is take them under your wing and let them be present with you where where it's reasonable to do so, to be present with you in a lot of different levels of ministry. Yeah. But it's it it it helps with that process.

T.J.: 26:09

Greg, I my calling in ministry also came as as a teenager. And let's talk for a few minutes about a lot of the conversations I have with ministers about their faith, it's it's tied into the vocation. You know, it's very much the relationship with God is a relationship with the church. And I think the younger you are in terms of your calling into ministry also adds a layer to that in terms of separating my relationship with God through Christ and with the calling that I have, because I'm a Christian first. I'm a believer first, and then I I'm a believer that happens to have a calling that serves a community of faith in this particular way.

T.J.: 27:03

So let's talk about the the struggles that come with that, but also dive a little bit deeper. What makes your relationship with God unique, different than the other relationships that you have here here? This sounds I was gonna say here on earth, but that sounds that sounds so strange. But but what is the distinctions between your relationship with God and the relationships that you have through your family and through your profession?

Greg: 27:36

It the one key element for me that's common in all of those is my ability to be able to discern what God's up to, in the midst of that. And and really, that that that's who I am, from my, formative years. There's just a was a deep sense of God, being there for me even though that I didn't know him at the time in the way that I came to know him as a teenager and even as I grew into an adult in my walk with him. It is just being able to, experience that And and and that's so common with me, that I forget that it's not common with every person that I get to minister to. And so, I I I kinda have to be, you know, keep that in in the back of my mind, in every encounter that I have with someone.

Greg: 28:38

But being able to balance out all of those different roles, One one that's been real helpful for me, my wife, Rhonda, she has she had experienced to be a a calling to be a pastor's wife before we ever met. And, it's just a a real miraculous thing for me in my journey. And my wife is my antennas, for me, and and she she knows when to let me know you're out of balance over here. You're out of balance over there, you know, kind of thing. She's she's really good at helping me, with that through the years and and and coming alongside me.

Greg: 29:18

So so having that partner like that in ministry, I think, is a a a real key, thing. But you also through the years, I've learned to be intentional about saying no

T.J.: 29:31

Mhmm.

Greg: 29:31

To ministry sometimes so that I can say yes more to my family, or or yes more to my personal life when I need to do something to let myself take a break and and to experience some rest. Because, you know, if you don't learn that kind of balance in all of those areas that you're called to, because you're just called as much to be a husband and a father as much as you are to be a pastor. And and so you you got to learn those distinctions, in in the specifics of each of those roles and how to give yourself. Because if you don't, you'll get to the point to where you'll experience such a burnout that it it all of those areas will begin to suffer. And and and the one that is your income could turn out not to be your income anymore if you're not careful.

Greg: 30:30

And you just don't you just don't have what you need to offer to all of those people in your lives, into those different roles the Lord has called you to.

T.J.: 30:40

Yeah. I just wondered, and I've been running this thought experiment, you know, for ministers, and we can be very much wrapped up in in our profession. And but what if that aspect of your calling into ministry was removed? This is just a general question that I've been asking of myself, should we ask ministers this? So if that sense of calling was removed, do you still see yourself as a Christian, or could you see yourself as a Christian?

T.J.: 31:16

Because I just see a lot of bleed over in terms of my relationship with god is my relationship with the church. And what if the church, local or otherwise, doesn't recognize or see or in in need of the gifts that you currently have. Or maybe your gifts change. Maybe the calling to ministry is seasonal like so many other things where you have callings in and out. Right.

T.J.: 31:47

I'm still working on the thought experiment. Still don't have it articulated well, but I'm wondering how many ministers currently serving would be Christians or what that relationship with God looks like if you remove the element of service through part time or full time ministry.

Greg: 32:07

That's true.

T.J.: 32:07

I know that's an individualized question, but maybe it's one we need to be posing to ourselves for those who fulfill the calling to the the word and the sacraments.

Greg: 32:19

Right. Right. And and that's a really interesting, question. And especially from my perspective, because I did go through a period of where the Lord asked me to lay down pastoral ministry as I had known it for almost 20 years. And I was almost 40 at the time.

Greg: 32:39

And, and and my wife and my 16 year old son at the time could see it very clearly. And I struggled with that for probably about 2 years. And then I finally came to the place where I could say, yes. I see this happening, and we're gonna answer this call if y'all are comfortable with it because I had no no income to turn to. I had no other work to turn to.

Greg: 33:09

But we knew the Lord were was calling all of us to, for me to do that. And so, with their, seeing the Lord in that way and me too, we laid it down, and I went 2,006 to 2,015. I went about 9 years. I actually continued to do ministry and did it in a different way. But one of the things I realized once I stepped out of of an official pastoral role, something that I had allowed happen to happen was that I had allowed that pastoral role to become my identity.

Greg: 33:53

Mhmm. And that period of being out of the pulpit and out of the official pastoral role, it it it helped me to see, and to let go of some things and not let pastoral ministry be my sole identity. And, so that that was a very it was a struggle. I was like a fish out of water for, several of those years. Even though I was still engaged in a ministry that Rhonda and I had started together, the ministry part was successful, but it it was far different.

Greg: 34:34

But it it from the pastoral role that I had known prior to that. And and I think you have to be really, really careful as a pastor that you don't let pastoral ministry become your sole identity. I don't I don't think ministry is that Jesus intends ministry to be that way, because there's so much more to who you are as a as a pastor than just that pastoral role. I hope that makes sense.

T.J.: 35:07

Yeah. So you discovered this in your early forties. Oh, what message do you have for the men and women serving who who haven't who haven't reached that place or haven't thought of it that way or maybe further along in their ministry, what pointers, what flags would you turn them to? And and maybe draw from your own experience. How did you arrive?

T.J.: 35:41

How did god, God help you see this is what you needed to do for a season or indefinitely? Which was not indefinitely, but

Greg: 35:53

Yeah. Yes. It it it and it's really it it has a lot to do with what I I feel like is really embedded in my DNA spiritually. Mhmm. It is that ability to hear the Lord and and and and and trust the way he communicates with you in that personal relationship.

Greg: 36:15

Because there there was a there was I've always been this has kind of been my niche in pastoral ministry. I've always been involved in churches that needed to experience revitalization. And every pastoral experience I've had, that that's been the character the common characteristic through the years. And, there so there was an element inside of me. There were some transitions that were taking place that that sometimes I wondered, do I really need to be in this pastoral pulpit with this kind of transition taking place inside of me?

Greg: 36:51

And and and that was hard because there were things that were happening for me and had been happening for me in that pastoral role that no longer fit in in in the landscape of ministry that I was in and had always been in all those years. And and so, that's the personal aspect of that and that personal relationship and your ability to discern what God and how God is communicating with you. And I trusted that very deeply inside of me, but I always kinda put out the fleece for more confirmation. And so then when my wife and my son, could see it before I even could, then then, you know, that that helped helped me along my way to find my way through that. But for someone who's who's in ministry, it's it's really personal to to your walk, but trust your ability to be able to discern what God is saying to you.

Greg: 37:53

And and once I I have a way of being able to do that, and it's there's 4 areas of your life that will align itself, your prayer life, your bible life, your church life, and the circumstances of your life. Mhmm. And when when all four of those line up, then you can be assured that you you have arrived at God's will, whatever that is. And then there's the not being afraid to follow through on that. Yeah.

Greg: 38:29

And that period outside of the pulpit when when that was, when I let go of that, it wouldn't really taken away from me. I let go of it. When that when that space opened up, it was tremendous. Something I had longed for for a long, long time in my life for inner healing and inner rest restoration took play. It gave me the space to be able to experience that.

Greg: 38:54

And so that 7, 8 years of my life, are probably some of the most monumental moments of my life of walking with God because something I'd been really been chasing for for a long time in my life actually occurred. And the funny thing about it, there was a point in time when I was trying to develop this other ministry, during that that period that one day in the office, I was sitting in the office working on some things, and the Lord asked me, would you go back into pastoral ministry if I wanted you to? And just I flippantly just said out loud. Yes. I will, Lord.

Greg: 39:33

Yes. I will. Thinking it would never happen. And lo and behold, just a few months later after that, it wasn't long until he made me Cumberland Presbyterian. I came into the Cumberland Presbyterian Church out of all of those experiences.

T.J.: 39:48

Yes. So, Greg, this is a good segue. Your growing up years was in the Milan, Tennessee area, which is western western half of Tennessee. And there's quite a few Cumberland Presbyterian churches. Yes.

T.J.: 40:03

And Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America in that area, geographical area. So how in the world did you grow up without having any not being Cumberland Presbyterian in that geographical area?

Greg: 40:18

Yeah. That it's interesting because, at at the time in my formative years, a number of my friends attended the, Cumberland, Presbyterian Church in Milan. Mhmm. And I knew that, and I actually visited that church with them some, but never crossed my mind that I would actually become Cumberland Presbyterian.

T.J.: 40:40

Well, let let me interrupt you there. So let's pause here just for a moment. So what was, and I I realize you're a teenager. But in in some honesty and some memory, what was your initial impressions of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?

Greg: 40:56

I was I was very comfortable with it as as much as a teenager can be comfortable with with church, period. Right. But had good memories, of that. Had real close relationships with friends and their families, that were a part, of of the church there.

T.J.: 41:15

I didn't know if your first impression fit into the stereotype of the presbyterians of kinda staunch and quiet

Greg: 41:22

stone. Didn't. It it didn't. I thought Cumberland Presbyterian at the time were more like I was and and felt very comfortable from that from that perspective.

T.J.: 41:34

Good. Alright. I interrupted your train of thought. But No. You're fine.

T.J.: 41:38

We're we're leading into, how you and the Cumberland Presbyterian Church met.

Greg: 41:45

How we met. One of the things that was unfolding for us during the latter part of my break from past pastoral ministry, at the Lord's directions. We we kinda got in a position financially, because I I what had happened with the ministry that we were developing when we were in Birmingham, This became my deep connection with Cumberland Presbyterian. We were actually doing, ministry out of our home and offering pastoral counseling and those sort of things. And I met Scott Fowler who pastors, Spring Creek Church in in, Montevallo, Alabama.

Greg: 42:31

And, he he came through some of the men's retreats that I was doing, and and we became connected as a result of that. It it seemed to have an impact on Scott's life, and and Scott and I became close friends. Well, Scott, started trying to reel me in. He kept telling me, he says, what you do fits Cumberland Presbyterian Theology extremely well, and this would work well, and we need pastors. And so he worked really, really hard during my hiatus from, pastoral ministry, that as I had known it as a pastor.

Greg: 43:08

He worked really, really hard to be the holy spirit and to reel me into Cumberland Presbyterians. And and and out of that, I met Mike Wilkinson when he was in, the Birmingham area, and, actually wound up doing a retreat, for, some of the leadership, pastoral leadership in the Grace Presbyterian. And then, Mike started working on me as well a little bit, and, he said and he was just convinced that what I was doing would work. So I had gone to Scott, and I told him, I said, if you know of a church that needs a fill in, I would be more than willing to start filling in. And, he said, well, I know a church right now, and and it was Coker Cumberland Presbyterian Church just outside of, Northport, Tennessee in Coker.

Greg: 43:59

And I went there to fill in 2 Sundays in 2011, and I wound up being there 4 years as their pastor. And, it was a phenomenal experience. And the thing that started happen happening for me there right off the bat was they really identified with who I was in my preaching, probably more so than anywhere I'd ever been before. And it started to feel like, hey. I'm I'm finding a home here for who I am.

Greg: 44:30

And, you know, I'm not really happy to fly under the radio radar with some of the stuff that I think the Lord has done with me and wants me to pastor from that perspective. So it was that's how that unfolded and how that came to be. And then while I was at Coker, I really struggled with the like a plant being pulled up from where you thought you were planted Mhmm. To being pulled up, your roots and all, and planted somewhere else. And it took me a little while to be convinced, in the PAS program.

Greg: 45:03

Doctor q, doctor Qualls, he really walked with me through that struggle in a big way, and I really struggled with my 3 3 or 4 classes I had to do for the pause in the middle of that, not with the classes at all, but just that being replanted somewhere else that was that didn't meet my expectations, to be honest with you. And and then, you know, just became convinced of it, around 2014, I think it was. And and my ordination was recognized, and I became Cumberland Presbyterian there in the Grace Presbyterian.

T.J.: 45:40

Alright. And the history continues to unfold.

Greg: 45:44

Yes. Exactly. And and I tell you, you say the history. One of the things that really attracted me because I I really hold something in my heart that that the Lord made me to be a part of a great movement of God, a great outpouring of God. My mom has told me that from the time I was little.

Greg: 46:06

And one of the things that I it's just like something in my heart, an expectation of the Lord's put there that there's gonna be a mighty outpouring. And when I read the Cumberland Presbyterian's history of their formation, boy, I I the Lord started reeling me in at that time. And, well, I would really like to see that happen again. Yeah. See that outpouring of God again.

T.J.: 46:32

Greg, yesterday, we were, talking by phone and, you were sharing that at Faith Fellowship, Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Tennessee, the past two and a half years, the congregation has suffered the loss of 17 members.

Greg: 46:52

Yes.

T.J.: 46:55

That is regardless of congregation size, that is such a loss in terms of loved ones and, gifts in ministry, passions found within local congregation. Kind of walk me through how the congregation heals and how your role is is helping faith fellowship and how everyone's eyes are kind of cast to to the future because that losses like that help shape mission and ministry presently, but also in the future.

Greg: 47:38

One of the key characteristics that it that it does, and and and it really does, kinda it refocuses everything. And your personality as a church does change when you experience. And I I think it's that number. I'm correct on that number. I could stand to be corrected.

Greg: 47:59

It could be a little fewer than that, but I we were having a discussion just recently here in the office, and and we think it's about that many over the last two and a half years. That it does when you experience those kind of losses, through death in a congregation, it changes the personality of the church. You you're you're not quite who you used to be. It's it's very unsettling for the church family. And so you really have to spend some time walking with them and God in in, you know, what what is life going to look look like in the midst of these losses.

Greg: 48:41

It's it's just like an individual that that loses a spouse or a close relative. That you do have to have a period of of grieving, and and you've got to be able to walk through those stages of grief with each other and with the Lord and and and let the Lord help you see what he's trying to do and used I I love the word you used, the the refocusing, of who you are, really does come into play in that. And and and for me as a a pastor in trying to walk through the grieving part of that with our church, but also trying to discern what God is up to, in the midst of such losses because my whole life, in in calling and walk with the Lord comes out of a series of losses in my formative years. Being able to find God in the midst of such losses and let him define what life is going to look like in the days ahead, it it is really, really important. Maybe as a pastor, I have to be in tune with that, and then I have to find avenues of being able to, lovingly, communicate that with to the congregation as well.

Greg: 50:03

And then when it starts coming together, it's it's it's a beautiful thing,

T.J.: 50:08

when

Greg: 50:08

that when you start seeing pockets of it unfold in your congregation that, hey, they're seeing the same thing I'm seeing. They're hearing the same thing that I'm hearing.

T.J.: 50:18

Yeah. And to take the moment to pause and to celebrate those moments of joy and gifts of happiness when they are there. You know, oftentimes, I think as a local congregation and maybe maybe even just as a denomination, you know, we get through an event, or an activity or a season and then we are already planning or pre planning for the the next, when we didn't pause long enough and celebrate the the moment that the event pulled off against obstacles or, you know, unforeseen things or, you know, these beautiful things occurred and we didn't even anticipate or plan for them. And, you know, even those pats on the back for those who stood up in moments of leadership and carried through, you know, on behalf of the entire community of faith and acknowledging, you know, their sacrifices and their commitment as well. We we can slow down long enough, pause long enough to be able to to do that and go.

T.J.: 51:38

We went above and beyond what we thought was capable.

Greg: 51:42

Exactly. Exactly. I see that And that's the that's the foundation that you want to build on, the celebration of those those moments. And, the Lord taught me early on. I made a mission trip early, shortly before I stepped out of the past trip following the Lord for a short period of time.

Greg: 52:03

I went to India, and one of the things that happened to me there, was it was just dramatic how God unfolded. I was there for 30 days. And I come home, and my wife told me, she said, you're using this phrase, God behind every bush, because everywhere we turned, you know, you you see something behind every bush, you know, when you're aware of something very keenly. And I kept my wife kept saying, you're using this phrase, god behind every bush. And, you know, I think all of all of life and all of ministry is like that.

Greg: 52:38

And and and we need to have more of that perspective of being able to see God behind every bush, in our lives because he's there. He's working. And and a lot of that sometimes you've you've talked a good bit with me about expectations. And sometimes the toughest things to overcome in life is unmet expectations. And, and so that's why it's important for us to be able to align our perspectives with God.

Greg: 53:09

Because with him, there's never that disappointment of unmet expectations if we're living his expectations.

T.J.: 53:19

Alright, Greg. Let's talk about your hopes for the church. Church with a capital c. The Cumberland Presbyterian Church and just the Christian church. Where would you like to see us in the future?

T.J.: 53:33

What will our ministries or our missions look like?

Greg: 53:39

One of the things that,

T.J.: 53:42

that if you if you were in charge if you were

Greg: 53:45

in charge in charge. If I was in charge, they were I would like to see a redefining of what discipleship is really about. And and you you've hit on it in some of our conversations today, I think prior to our recording. And I love the analogy that you used that sometimes, as the church, we're we're looking for something that someone can give us in a box Yeah. That we can pull out of that box and find what works for us.

Greg: 54:22

And and and then, you know, we can move on to the next thing in ministry, and and that sort of thing. And and to me, discipleship is much more than a program. It's much more than a ministry model. And and it's really for me is summed up in that phrase, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And, I would like for us to see because for me, discipleship just literally means walking with God, and being able to discern what he is saying, what he is up to, what he is doing, and and then trying to adjust our lives to join him, in those in those things.

Greg: 55:12

And I think when we're able to do that, that that's the true essence of discipleship. One of the things that we did with the ministry that we were doing while I was out of pastoral ministry, one of the things that we actually did was tried our best and give our best effort to teaching people how to hear God. Mhmm. Because it's the old saying, if you give a man a fish, you fed him for a day. But if you teach the man to fish, you fed him for a lifetime.

Greg: 55:46

I think if I can teach a person to hear God or discern how God is communicating with them and what he's communicating with them and the personal relationship being the very foundation of that, then I can I can unleash the kingdom of God for a lifetime inside and and through that person? And that's really my passion for individual Christians and for churches. That's kind of my passion in ministry because that ministry I developed back in Birmingham when I was out of the pulpit, I now pastor from that perspective, where I wasn't quite as much prior to that. And so I'm getting to do that as the Cumberland Presbyterian. But I would like to see a kind of a recapturing of biblical discipleship.

Greg: 56:36

And, and and and one nut that I haven't cracked yet that I'm trying real hard to, that I know is a passion of yours, is evangelism, because it's very different in the time in which we live. And and I think we need to allow the Lord to teach us how he wants it done in the environment that we're in. Because for me, I think the church is thrust to into an environment. When you look at acts, 1516 right in there, Paul's goes to, Maria, has a great ministry there. He goes to the next location.

Greg: 57:17

He has a great outpouring of God there. And then he goes to Athens, and I think it's either act 16 or 17. And it's not quite the same landscape, for evangelism that the other two places prior to Paul was. And he had to take a whole different approach and accept a whole different outcome. And I think the environment that we're in now as the church is we're more like Athens than we are those prior two places that we've been in the past, and that evangelism is going to have to be done in a very different way in relationship to that.

T.J.: 58:00

Yeah. We were talking about that off mic that, the way is if we're inviting people to a relationship with Jesus Christ, then we have to have a relationship with the people that we're interacting with, that we're talking with, that we're sharing time and space together with. And in this day and time, trust has to be developed. Exactly. And and so that is it has always been an element of evangelism.

T.J.: 58:38

I think it we need to embrace that aspect more that, and take the time of developing deep, thoughtful, life giving relationships so that we can be those pointers to Christ, those inviters to Christ. And I think as Cumberland Presbyterian, that serves us very well, with our history and where we are currently, and most likely will be in the near future that we we relish being in the presence of one another. It's an expectation. It's a it's a desire. And, so it's part of our DNA.

T.J.: 59:23

And so therefore, it is the same in the community, the larger community that we're a part of. It's just being a little more intentional in the conversations that we're having with our neighbors and family members and and and coworkers, classmates, is to take the take those conversations to another deeper, intimate level of, you know, the meaning of life, the purpose of relationships, you know, goals, you know, expectations, what to do with struggles, how to celebrate with joys, you know, the move beyond just the superficial and to something more I mean, everyone desires to be listened to, to be heard. Yep. And all Cumberland Presbyterians have a listening ear or 2. Use them.

T.J.: 01:00:22

Use them.

Greg: 01:00:23

Exactly. Very much so.

T.J.: 01:00:26

You talked about, the emphasis on discipleship. So there's individual discipleship and I think there's also collective discipleship. So in terms of defining discipleship, which do you think would help, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church? The individual discipleship or us collectively?

Greg: 01:00:51

That's a good question. Because I think I think you can it it it it there has to be a balance of both. Yeah. And and I have really not thought about this question. And when you were asking it, one of the things that has happened here at Faith Fellowship that I don't think I've really thought about, until you asked the question, is that I think this collective discipleship can happen from the pulpit, on an ongoing basis.

Greg: 01:01:25

And and sometimes in the background, in the way you operate as a pastor from the pulpit, you you have to be intentional about it. But I I think it's kinda like the system that runs in the background of a computer. We never know that it's operating that way, really. We just put the commands in and do the things we do with the computer, and and it happens. And and I think if on the inside, you're intentional, about expressing yourself that way, that that collective discipleship can happen through your preaching ministry in the church, and a lot of that has to do, with what's happening with you as a pastor on the inside, the kind of full going out to your congregation Mhmm.

Greg: 01:02:08

As well. But I I really think that, for it to have its deepest effect, I think the individual discipleship is really important. And as and what that looks like for me as a pastor is being able to have relationships that I know are intimate discipleship relationships with individual members in in the congregation. And you kinda have to do both. The collective you you can't just focus on 1, because if you focus on 1, the other is gonna be missing.

Greg: 01:02:46

And if you focus just on individual discipleship, you may wind up hurting some feelings Yeah. By some other folks as well in the process. But but you you've gotta have a balance of both because I think the Lord does give you as a pastor the opportunity to disciple individual people, and you have to make space for that in your structure that we talked about earlier of how you do ministry in a day, of being able to be intentional about your efforts of discipling individual people. Because I think in the long run, they both pay different dividends to the life of the church in in, defining who that church is and helping them to see who they are in Christ.

T.J.: 01:03:30

Yeah. When you said discipleship, I noticed that one of the authors that you like to, to read and follow is Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Greg: 01:03:39

Yes.

T.J.: 01:03:40

And, I didn't know our conversation was gonna go in this way. And I I'm no Bonhoeffer scholar, but I don't know if there was really a place where he arrived in terms of the individual and the collective discipleship, with my limited readings of his because I mean, he got frustrated quite a bit with the collective discipleship

Greg: 01:04:07

Yes.

T.J.: 01:04:08

And its inactivity during a specific period of time. But he also struggled with his own individual discipleship as well. I'll have to go back and take a look at that Yep. And and and see.

Greg: 01:04:22

Yeah. And and the fascinating thing for me, for Bonhoeffer, is in in his discipleship, where he where he arrived at the level, of of what he did in relationship to evil that was unfolding around him. You know, that's unimaginable to me, you know, and to hear God in some of the things that he felt like the lord was leading him to, through his individual discipleship of his own heart, is I don't know. There's something that's very overwhelming about the role he played in in the culture of the church and the world in his time.

T.J.: 01:05:15

Right. Yeah. And I there's a danger there as well, I think, for us as Christians to if we can't find an enemy, we create 1. Yes. Yes.

T.J.: 01:05:30

And, you know, we feel like to operate at optimal for as a disciple, or a cause for my denomination or my interpretation of the scriptures or whatever may be endangered. And Yes. And so the motivation is found in an enemy. And if there isn't one, then one can be created. Right.

T.J.: 01:05:55

He did face an enemy. I'm not minimizing that, but I'm I'm thinking more for us. Just day to day discipleship of the temptation of going, well, since things seem to be going okay or decently, but I wanna be a better disciple, I need to find a reason to be a better disciple by creating an evil or an enemy. Yeah. And and that can go horribly wrong.

Greg: 01:06:22

It can go horribly wrong. I I don't trust myself enough, to hardly even identify with the level of of what he did and and where he was at and and those sort of things. I'm still trying to grow to that level. But, I I think our greatest challenge and standard that we have is, you know, the only person that we're working to please is is the Lord. And, and there's a lot of stuff that can get wrapped up in ministry in that, you know, pleasing people, and those who are pleasing myself and, in relationship to what my role is as a pastor, but you

T.J.: 01:07:04

Right.

Greg: 01:07:05

You really have to hold on to that standard. You know, I'm working to please the Lord.

T.J.: 01:07:09

Yeah. Greg, what are you reading right now?

Greg: 01:07:16

That's funny that you say this. Eric Metak Metak's book on Bonhoeffer's life.

T.J.: 01:07:21

No kidding.

Greg: 01:07:22

No kidding. Yeah. I just picked it up a couple of weeks ago. And and it's kind of weird for me because I've never been a fiction reader, much at all. I have real trouble reading trying to stick with reading fiction.

Greg: 01:07:36

But I've been an avid reader, but it's always been nonfiction that's related to my either to my my walk with the Lord or my ministry. And, or I like to read biographies. I I learn a lot from people's stories and, those sort of things. But, for some reason, I've, I've gone back and picked up the Texas book on Bonhoeffer's life and started reading it again. And, but the, what I was going to say, I have learned that I as I've gotten older, I turned 60 a couple of weeks ago.

Greg: 01:08:10

And one of the things that I I've learned, I've never been one to battle with cynicism

T.J.: 01:08:15

Mhmm.

Greg: 01:08:16

In any way. But at this stage of life, I am really it's probably my one of my strongest battles, right now. And, and and and because of that, my reading has suffered. I I don't read as much as I used to. And I've really felt like the Lord was saying, pick up Bonhoeffer's biography and read it.

Greg: 01:08:40

So

T.J.: 01:08:41

Well, my friend, I'm not sure if that was the wisest choice because Bonhoeffer's expectation of of the church that he loved so much, I mean, they they they couldn't do it. Yeah. They really, really, really struggled. And, yeah. He he lets that out.

T.J.: 01:09:06

He lets it be known where the church is faltering. It didn't win him any friends. That's for sure.

Greg: 01:09:12

Exactly. And you know, that's something that I've had to balance. Not I'm not putting myself on Bonhoeffer's level in any way. But this brings up a really good point, that I think is really important for pastors. Because sometimes we can carry a passion in our heart, and we try to communicate that passion.

Greg: 01:09:32

But if your church is not at the same level that you that you are with that passion, it can really be 2 bulls clashing heads, if you're not careful. And and you can really miss what your congregation needs from you if you're not careful.

T.J.: 01:09:53

So as a

Greg: 01:09:53

seasoned make sense?

T.J.: 01:09:54

Yeah. So as a seasoned Christian and as a seasoned minister, when that recipe gets mixed in the pot of stew, what it's a twofold question. What will help the congregation or the congregation's leadership to to recognize it, and then what will help the the the minister as well whose level of passion for x is at level 8 and for the congregation, it's a level 2. You know, because that can lead to conflict, which is not always bad, but can lead to some real hardships.

Greg: 01:10:37

Right. Right. And and and you can really lose some speak people spiritually, in your church if you're not real careful. It it it can shorten the effectiveness of your ministry where you are.

T.J.: 01:10:53

Yeah. Yeah. The longevity of the place that you're serving.

Greg: 01:10:57

Yes. Yes. And and but I think that question that you constantly have to raise is not what I want to communicate specifically, but is what does this church need from God? And and let God walk you through answering that question. One of the things that's happened for me here at Faith, is, I guess, since just prior to COVID, I started more than I ever have in my ministry of preaching through series.

Greg: 01:11:30

And something very mysterious has kinda happened in that for me, and I can tell from the response of people in the congregation, that it is really speaking to them and really ministering to them. And I'm kinda stumbling into series that I would not have necessarily chosen specifically. And, so that's made me more aware of that, because there's there's a little deeper connection, I think.

T.J.: 01:12:04

Interesting.

Greg: 01:12:05

Yeah. And and and my story, my background, if there's a fable that characterizes my walk with God and my past oral ministry, it's Hansel and Gretel. The devil does everything he can to keep me captive and and and and imprison me, but the Lord gives me breadcrumbs along the way. And then there's a moment where I look up and I have found my way home. Uh-huh.

Greg: 01:12:30

And the bread crumbs that he's laid out from. So I kinda stumble into things.

T.J.: 01:12:36

Well, Greg, I am glad that you stumbled into this conversation. I I have truly enjoyed

Greg: 01:12:42

it. JJ. I've and Me too.

T.J.: 01:12:45

And, I hope those bread crumbs, lead to some other great places that keep you away from the cynicism that is growing upon you in in the young of heart years.

Greg: 01:12:59

I greatly appreciate that, TJ. And appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation with you and others as well.

T.J.: 01:13:06

Thank you, Greg.

Greg: 01:13:07

Alright. Thank you, TJ.

T.J.: 01:13:10

Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road. If you would, subscribe and follow on Apple and Spotify. Greg mentioned in our conversation that one of his favorite writers is Dietrich Bonhoeffer. So I thought it would be fitting to close this conversation with one of his writings. On October 31, 1942, Dietrich wrote to Maria, soon to be his fiancee, after learning of the news that her brother Max had died. An attempt to encourage her, Bonhoeffer writes, at such times, it can only help us to cast ourselves upon the heart of God, not with words, but truly and entirely. This requires many difficult hours, day and night. But when we have let go entirely into God, or better, when God has received us, then we are helped. Weeping may endure for the night, but joy comes in the morning. There really is joy with God, with Christ. Do believe it. But each person must walk this way alone. Or rather, God draws each person onto it individually. Only prayers and the encouragement of others can accompany us along the way.