Harry Chapman - I Am Calling You To What Will Be
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. This is The Cumberland Road. I am your host, TJ Malinoski. Reverend Harry Chapman is a church planter and the minister at the Westside Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Rio Rancho, New Mexico. In our conversation, Harry shares a time in his life where he grappled with an existential question of faith, asking, how real is my relationship with God? From this search of meaning and purpose, Harry had a deepening of his faith that led to leaving a company he established and cultivated, to a second career in ministry, and to starting a new church. Harry says that he has understood his ministry as if God is saying to him, I am not calling you to what is. I am calling you to what will be. You are listening to the Cumberland Road Podcast, and here is my conversation with Harry Chapman.
T.J.:Okay. Harry, we're recording. Harry, thank you for joining me on the podcast. Let's take a moment, introduce yourself, and then I have a new church development question for you.
Harry:Alright. Well, thanks, TJ. I'm Harry Chapman. I'm a pastor of the Westside Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Rio Rancho, New Mexico. And for those of you that aren't familiar with the state, I'm on the on the west side of the Rio Grande.
Harry:Albuquerque is on the east side, so we're about center state. And, we've been out there in the wilderness, in the desert for 25 years.
T.J.:Now here's my or my new church development question for you. Talk about the benefits and the joys of starting a brand new church?
Harry:Well, I, I appreciate the question because you you caused me to think back a little bit as what are the benefits and what are the joys. And to be perfectly frank with you, I wouldn't know how to contrast with, moving into the pastorate in an established church. I went to seminary late and, graduated in at the age of 45 and started this church as a plant out of Heights, Cumberland, and, this is all I've ever done. So are there are there joys in an established church? I'm sure there are, but in in in pastoring this, it it really is kind of the wild west in, while I've been humbly, I think it well educated.
Harry:Much of my experience and understanding came as an elder at the Heights Cumberland Presbyterian Church, but other than that, it's it's it's kind of it's kind of fun. A lot of the problems I hear pastors speak of in our, local pastor meetings and things like that, frankly, I I haven't struggled with. We have our own struggles and our own challenges, but there really is a lot of freedom. And, TJ, I don't know if this will relate to you or not, but, a lot of times I have to check myself over the years before I ask a question or ask someone to do something because invariably, I know they'll say yes or run with it. And I've got to really stop and think now, is this really what I want them to do?
Harry:Is this really something we should do? And, if I had my own business, which I had way back when, I was the only one that had to suffer the consequences, as a single single held privately held company. And so I hear that's a I hear that's a wonderful problem to have, is that there really is great support, great encouragement. We have our we have our challenges, obviously, with with folks, but, that aside, it it really is fun to be able to do what you think needs to be done from a a church standpoint. Then, of course, I glean a whole lot from, the pastors in the area, and then, you know, a lot of people will go to a a leadership conferences.
Harry:Certainly some of the pastors I hang out with, and I really try not to go to those, not because I think I'm too good for them, but, if I've only got so many hours in the year, I really enjoy going to the preaching congresses, where you'll hear 12 sermons back to back to back to back. There's not a breakout session to go to a class or education and things like that. There there are places for that. There are times I do that, but my my delight is is just hearing other people preach. And and DJ invariably when I get back home, I come back you'll appreciate this.
Harry:I come back with 2 clear anymore I expect this to happen. Now I come back with 2 very 2 clear, thoughts. The first is we need to step it up. We our our church is is is lagging behind. We're getting too casual, this and that and the other.
Harry:But the other is, which of course is one of the joys that I'm referring to, is you come back going, Hey, we're doing okay. It doesn't, it doesn't hurt to get a little perspective and you come back sometimes going, whew, thank you, Lord. I don't, I don't know if I can pastor in a situation that individual is facing and so on. So those are some of the joys, in my, infancy in Christ, obviously I was enjoying just receiving the word, raising the family. And, and I, I call that kind of the, the eye years, the iTunes.
Harry:It was all about our spiritual growth and our spiritual health. And one of the joys I have through this now is, is watching when god moves in an individual and, and try not to impede that. A lot of times, I'll encourage people who help facilitate worship to they'll say, well, what do you want me to do? And I said, well, I I asked you to do confession because I saw you've been going through some trials of late, and and, just come up and lead the confession and have the lord has been working through. So we don't have a we don't have a printed out confession as I've seen in many churches.
Harry:Mhmm. But invariably, it's it's the scripture text, what god's doing on their heart, and giving a time for silent confession. So we'll actually have some some silence, during that. That that to me is is so exciting to watch, and invariably, something will fall flat on his face, especially people that wanna be preachers. I I it's like there's only time for 1 sermon, but but it's worth the risk because the times that people get up there and and not share their personal stuff, but really address, here's what God's been working on with me and and confession as well as offering.
Harry:Those are 2 major places folks, get involved in the facilitating of the worship. That is just so much fun to have the freedom to just see what God's doing in their heart.
T.J.:Harry, hearing you and listening to you, I now have another question about new church development. From your experience, what does it take to start a new group?
Harry:You know, TJ, and I've this I'm not putting you off. I'll answer the question, but it may it may seem a little farfetched. I can't imagine doing this if you're not called to it. Mhmm. If I I I like I said, my wife and I both didn't go to seminary till we I was 40.
Harry:She was 39. And I you know, by that age, you think you got some kind of smarts and some kind of wisdom or some some kind of wisdom. And I was so surprised at seminary, how many people were there just to try it out, to see if this is the way they wanna go. And like, I wouldn't be here for all t in China if if God hadn't placed me here or called me here. And subsequently, we we both were able to graduate and, and go on, but there is absolutely nothing to keep me here.
Harry:I I trust they don't listen to this in New Mexico. You know, if God said it's time to go, you're you're good to go now. I'd be like, yes, sir. But in the meantime, with with that struggle, I wouldn't be doing anything else right now.
T.J.:Mhmm. Well, thank you. I I wanted your perspective, and I get asked that question a lot in in the field and the ministry that I'm in is, okay, could you could you summarize it? You know, let me pull it out of the box, or let me self reflect and see if I have those gifts and that sort of thing. And I wanted to hear from somebody who has 25 plus years of church planting, if you could summarize it in a small way that it was digestible.
T.J.:It's more complicated than that. It's complex. Mhmm. It's circumstantial and contextual, and there's so many variables. But I wanted to hear from your perspectives that maybe you can lay the truth on me, and then just I'd look at the world totally differently, the world of church planting.
T.J.:Yeah.
Harry:I I I make it a joke, but there's a lot of truth in it. And it's just lead him to the cross and get out of the way. And, and, I I can't recommend that for everybody, but it probably has a whole lot to do with just the way God has gifted me as well as he hasn't. Mhmm. Certain things that I'm not good at, and, and yet, for some reason, he's allowed me to withstand the the hurricane and those things that could upset the ministry and yet, to be able to focus on on what we are doing right.
T.J.:Looking at your relationship with God, what is an important meaningful experience that you've had?
Harry:Well, hearing god speak, and, there's those times when you know it's god. And, and there's no doubt in your mind. And and people are you know what, DJ? I think a lot of people in the Cumberland denomination are embarrassed of the holy spirit. And and maybe that's not fair to say Cumberlands, but in the Baptist and the Methodist, and I go on and on.
Harry:Anymore, I I hear things like this being quantified in such a way that, you you do have the words for it. You can explain it, but the the thing that just amazed me is, if I may, when I was a kid I I know I was in elementary. I don't know what age, but I I came to the conclusion in the little Lutheran church out on the west side of the Rio Grande. My folks had me in a church plant. I didn't know what that word was or what it meant, but we met in a little store and things like that.
T.J.:This is a moment of foreshadowing, I suppose.
Harry:Foreshadowing. Well, you know, in hindsight, yeah. And, I I remember thinking clear as a bell. Number 1, there is God. This is all I this is the only thought I had.
Harry:There is God. It is his church. Now keep in mind, this elementary kid, It is his church, and number 3, he's not happy with it. And then in that infancy of my mind, I was like, therefore, I don't have to go to church. Ergo, if if it is God's and he's, and it is his church and there is God, and he's not happy with it, then I can move on.
Harry:And there were some issues in our family that made me decide that I wouldn't be the the the rebel to a great extent at that stage, and so I I waited till I graduated from high school.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Harry:But, TJ, I said two things to myself as I was graduating, and and I'm not one of those never never sayers. But I said, number 1, I'll never, go to church again, and number 2, I'll never live on the west side of the Rio Grande again. And, both of those were not pleasant experiences. And, of course, now I'm pastoring on the west side of the the Rio Grande. Yeah.
Harry:And so I share that to say we my wife and I, we got married at a at a, oh, I don't know. I was gonna say out of high school, but that's not the truth. We we didn't get married for, like, 5 years. But as soon as the first baby came in app Annapolis, Maryland, I said, honey, I think we need to go to church. And she had the same response idea, like, why?
Harry:We both believe in God. We we we believe in God. And, you've even said he's not happy with the church. And I said, yeah. But I'm watching this brand new baby.
Harry:It must have been a year old by then. And, she's watching Sesame Street, and she needs to hear, what the Bible has to say. And, so we did it for the children's sake. It, and so, we're still talking about God experiences. Right?
T.J.:Right. Right.
Harry:And, and so the the bottom line is is she was baptized in the 1st Presbyterian Annapolis, Maryland. And from there, we went to the place that felt good. I don't even think I said the spirit back in those days, but it it just felt good. We moved a whole lot. We were Methodist in Dallas.
Harry:We were, Anglicans in Australia. We were, Presbyterians in Chicago, Baptist in in Colorado, and, and we would just look for a church that just seemed comfortable. And so to get to answering your question, we've we finally moved back to Albuquerque after 10 years of all this, and now we have our second child. We moved back to Albuquerque and, went to Heights Cumberland Presbyterian Church. We walked in, and immediately my wife knew half the people there through, the family has a music camp for children here in the in the state of New Mexico, and, so she knew him from that angle, and it just felt right.
Harry:And so subsequently, I was sitting, sitting in the pew one Sunday, couldn't tell you what the sermon was, but, the the thought hit my mind, That's the Jesus I know, and the good old hindsight 2020 is is truthfully at that point, even though we had attended these other children for the kids' sake, I'm not sure I really knew Jesus. Well, I'd say I don't, but I had this image that the Jesus that was being preached from that Cumberland Presbyterian pulpit, somewhere in my mind, I had determined that that Jesus is not available in this earth. You gotta wait to get to heaven to have that kind of mercy, that kind of grace, the attributes we always talk about. But a lot of times, I just don't have the sense, that, you know, it's one thing to say God's sovereign, and you find out about how much people believe that doctrine watching how they respond to. Well, current events is a good example.
Harry:You're like, woah. Woah. I thought you believed this doctrine. And so anyways, that's the Jesus I know. And subsequently, over the decades, I was an elder there in 1988.
Harry:So I've been part of this presbytery back when it was I think they called it Mission Presbytery. Then it became Del Cristo, and, so I was part of this all through that through that time, and, more and more came to realize I was a Cumberland, before I even knew what one was. And specifically, I'm talking about 1804, 1810, and, and that's that's the rest of the story. We're really making a push now to be sure Cumberlands know what a Cumberland is at our our church. They come and go, what's a Cumberland?
Harry:And, of course, the easy answer is, well, there's a place in Tennessee and Kentucky. And, and, and then when you begin to understand the birth of this church, this was kind of like when you said, hey. You know, what do you recommend? How how does someone go about doing this? It's kind of like the way our denomination was was birthed.
Harry:It it came not out of of pride or or, ambition. It really was necessity. The the scriptures were being maligned or or, misunderstood might be a fair word. Infant baptism and infant mortality and, you know, some of the other things we all know. And, and then the more I study that, I'm like, wow.
Harry:I'm I was a cumberland not knowing, and that's the Jesus that I I saw.
T.J.:You said something earlier that resonated with me, about God speaking. Harry, how do you know when God is speaking to you?
Harry:How do you not know? Friend of mine said he was baptized in in the spirit. Mhmm. And I don't know if this causes all kind of controversy on this on this medium, but the the bottom line is is I know exactly what he's talking about. And, and I said, well, how many times that happened?
Harry:And he said, he said, just once. And I said, I I can't get him to leave me alone. Time and time and time again, I feel that the the Lord is, is is, is speaking and directing. And my pastor, just just marvelous and understanding individuals and and personalities, and and and the joy he received from watching Christ work uniquely in someone. And, he just knew the the right thing, and I was, I had a client in Cincinnati, and and one day I got on the plane, and I thought, well, if I went to seminary, what, that had already been the Lord speaking.
Harry:And I thought, what what would I do? So I what do I have to do? And the first was, well, you gotta get somebody to run the company. We had 5 offices around the country, so I was gonna have to that was no small thing. Not a big company, but nonetheless.
Harry:And, went on down the list. Had had to pass my GRE, you know, things like that. And, and so I sat on it for, like, 2 or 3 weeks because the last thing you wanna do is, you know, well, God says. And, you mispronounced the word a we. And so you don't wanna be that guy.
T.J.:And
Harry:so I just sat on it, didn't even share it with my wife. And I called her from Cincinnati, and and this was the time I thought, okay. It's time to I didn't hear anything different up to this point, and I said, what do you what would you think if and I said, don't respond. Just back then, we didn't have cell phones. And I said, just just hear me out.
Harry:So I went down the list of 16 things. You gotta pick a seminary. I mean, crazy stuff. And, there was silence on the other end, and then I realized she was crying. And, I said, woah.
Harry:What's going on? And she her words were I can remember to this day. Through her tears, she said, I know we're going to do it. And I said, woah, woah, woah, back up, back up. I do not know we're going to do it.
Harry:I'm just asking you to to give me your discernment, and her response was, I know we're going to do it. And I said, I'm not I don't know for a fact we're going to do it. And so, TJ then, we made a pact, prayed for it for a while. I don't know if it was 2 weeks or a month or 3, it wasn't, it wasn't very long. And so this was the the glory of being under a pastor, a shepherd, who's who's much more concerned about your relationship with Christ, much more concerned about your relationship with the church, than anything else.
Harry:And I went to him, and I said, hear me out. I did the same thing I did with my wife. If I went to seminary, here's what I gotta have to do. Here's a list of 16. I finished, and I said, what do you think?
Harry:This is God speaking now. And he says, why do you always have to be in control? Now remember, I had my own company, and I it it I owned it outright. I I didn't have to share it with anybody. And and, and it was it was a humbling thing to come before this guy.
Harry:Mhmm. But that was the freedom he had, and and I blew up at him. And I I called him some names and things like that, which are they may be in scripture. I don't know if I've ever come across them, but, then anyways, and and and he laughed just like you are. And then he said, it just as casual as can be.
Harry:He said that's not how you do it. He said if God's calling you, what you do and, TJ, he just laid out how you submit. And he says you'd go before session, and if they say yes, you go on to presbytery. And if they say yes, then your questions are relevant. But until then, if if they say no, then you just go right on with what you're doing.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Harry:And and, TJ, if if he had handled that any other way, I'm guessing I would have gotten in front of some of these guys and been like, oh, I'm not doing this. And, and so God spoke very clearly through that process. Very clear. That was a very practical thing. When I was in Atlanta, something was going on where I went on a Saturday.
Harry:Knowing me, I was so selfish. I probably wanted to catch the Super Bowl and, on a Sunday and, had a early client on Monday morning, so I didn't wanna travel on Sunday. Anyways, I went to Charles Stanley's church. I know I think they call it First Baptist Atlanta. I don't know.
Harry:But I went to their Sunday school class. I went to their, it was the 2nd weekend of May that year, whenever that was, and it was just great. Everything I liked about Stanley. And in the middle of the sermon, God spoke to me, And he said, if this is your pastor, where would your relationship with me be? It's just clears a bell.
Harry:And then and then instead of ducking the question, it was it was clear. The answer was immediate. My relationship with Christ would falter, and, and he said, clear as a bell, I'm going to remove Larry. That was the name of of my pastor, And because it was of the lord, so clear, I knew it was truth that personalities on this earth aside, he was saying, you have got to develop your relationship with me above all, and and not rely on someone else's teaching and preaching and and their relationship with me. I didn't run ahead and think, well, my goodness.
Harry:Is he gonna die? Oh, my goodness. Is he gonna move? Is he gonna transfer? And I think it was, I don't know, 20 years later when, Larry retired, but it it it was one of those moments where, he was clear.
Harry:So as you can imagine, I so hunger and desire to be redemptive redemptive in that sense, an instrument God would use that people could hear from him Mhmm. Without me stepping over the words. Because I did have pastors in my life that if I had gone to them and said, what do you think of my list? They woulda they woulda grabbed a hold of me and said, well, you gotta do this. You might need to add number 17, and you don't need number 5.
Harry:And, and, boy, I I tell you what, that probably woulda sent me sent me running. So thankful for the guy, the the men and women god's, placed over me.
T.J.:You know, you mentioned, you know, having a relationship with a pastor and then also developing deeper relationship with God. How those two complement each other that not relying on whoever the preacher or the teacher is to define that relationship with Jesus Christ, but also doing your own personal study and development and being open to the work of the Holy Spirit. Yep. That's that's deep, you know, in terms of it's easier to kinda lean on. Well, she or he will take care of that for me, you know, through their teaching.
T.J.:And I just have to listen, and I don't really have to be engaged. But, no, there's a true discipleship is developing that personal relationship, with God through my through my study and through my prayer.
Harry:Oh, absolutely. It it was, like I said, I I think it was just just the grace of God, and, of course, I I would like to be able to to do that for others. In my presbytery, I think a lot of these people have moved on. They're no longer with us, so to speak. They were insistent in the presbytery that I go to the denomination school back in Memphis.
Harry:Mhmm. My my production studios were here in New Mexico, and so it behooved me not to go to, Vancouver was one Regent was one school I was looking at. Gordon Conwell was one up in Boston, and then Denver Seminary, and I ended up going to that. But the support I received from my pastor, sending pastor, to he's not worried about what seminary you choose. I said, well, I know I need languages.
Harry:I'm the kind of guy that I probably won't nail the Greek and the Hebrew, and I don't know if everybody's doing that anymore at all. But, anyways, I was I was glad I went there. And even while I was there, TJ, I was able to have the freedom to say, okay. It's my senior year. Where are you gonna go?
Harry:And I was I was able, TJ, to to know that it didn't matter if I was the Cumberland or not. I had that freedom, and, it it didn't matter what I did from that point on. There was a a true sense that this is between you and god, and we're here to to be instrumental in that. And, and I'll tell you what. I had those years to pray.
Harry:What about Cumberlands, Lord? At that point, I'd gotten to know Cumberlands pretty well. Mhmm. And they're just pretty much like other people. Kinda like your family, and I don't know your family at all.
Harry:I assume it's very much like my family. You have good days and bad. You have trials. You have struggles. You have heartbreak, on and on.
Harry:And, it was really cool. My senior year of seminary, the Lord spoke. You guys are gonna think I'm a wacko. And he said in the clearest of terms, I'm not calling you to what is. I'm calling you to what will be.
Harry:And that may not mean anything to anybody else, but I thought it was total permission to join the Cumberland family and and not be concerned about people approving or disapproving and all that kind of stuff. And, truthfully, over these 25 years of actually ministering, I have yet to come with cross swords with what's in our confession of faith, what I see scripture supporting. If anything, I would like to see I would like to see us be become a denomination that is hungry for revival, is hungry for this word to be fired up, and and you can't force that, but I do think our people need to know about that.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Harry:Sacraments. Now keep in mind, I was raised a Lutheran, so I knew what a sacrament was. I just thought man was in control of those. And then as a Cumberland to come into full recognition, no. This baptism is not me doing the baptism, but that is actually Christ.
Harry:And it's not the baptism saving the kid, which is a big deal in New Mexico with a heavy Catholic population. I can explain every instant baptism, and people will still come up afterwards and go, well, I still don't think that the baby is saved because they were baptized. It's like that's what I just told you. That's what scripture teaches. On the other hand, to understand covenant theology, that's that's a $5 word, but to understand the intimacy that it is God that has overcome this fallen nature and us to say, I want to present my infant to Christ.
Harry:Frederick Beechner, I think, was a Presbyterian preacher, but, anyway, he he writes a little deal on infant baptism, and he says, you know, when it really gets down to it, I'm not sure a a squealing child knows any more theology than the pope. And, boy, we relate to that, don't we? Yeah. For all of our great knowledge, God is still impressing us, with his presence.
T.J.:I've I've always thought as Cumberlands as just a a band of renegades who and I I say that in a loving way, who are in many ways anti authoritarian, but love one another, see the emphasis in the covenant community, and and renegades in terms of plural because we're stuck with each other because of our confession of faith and our constitution.
Harry:The herds running together.
T.J.:Yeah. So there's some there's some pride that can come with being a renegade. You know? Wait. You're not gonna tell me to do it that way.
Harry:Well, you know, in in my first experiences, we call it the holy land, you know. Tennessee, Kentucky, we call that the holy land back east, and, back east down south. Where you been? I went to the holy land, Cordova, Tennessee. And, early on, I'd hear people introduce themselves with the the generational, tag.
Harry:I'm a 3rd generation. I'm a 5th generation. I'm 4th. And at first, I was like, I'm a nothing. And and, and it it was I wasn't putting myself down.
Harry:I've but I, I'd first couple of times, I'd look at somebody and go, well well, thanks to your generations. I'm here because it was in a Cumberland Presbyterian Church. I saw the word on fire. And that's what drew me, and I'm thankful, that you have these generations before you. And, you sent people out.
Harry:And I don't know if I ever communicated that very clearly because they all looked at me like I was
T.J.:No. That that's a positive
Harry:nuts. You don't get it.
T.J.:That's a positive approach. I haven't looked at it that way. But, yeah, you're right. You know, if somebody was using it as a badge, you know, of I'm x number generation, you you were saying, well, I'm a benefit of it. You know, I can't compare, but I have benefited from your generation and others.
Harry:There's there's no question in my mind that now having benefited from it, this was the exact denomination, that I have been called to, and and god can do anything he want from this day forward. But I know for a fact, this is the place that he has said, this is where I am, and I'm setting you down here than me and somewhere else. But, here, that renegade thing, TJ, I have the I have the freedom to hold the Word of God higher than man's ideas. I have the freedom to take a solid stand on infant baptism and the significance of the sacrament of communion. Have women in in office and preaching and things like that.
Harry:I I have the freedom to do that even though Bible study fellowship, I was part of that for quite a while. And, like I said, Denver Seminary, and, and yet scripturally, I I see I see the clarity of it's not a question of gender. It's a question of authority. And in the Cumberlands, every one of us is under authority. My membership I'm preaching to the choir, but my membership's not in the church.
Harry:I'm under authority. And, and because of that, I have no problem with an act 6 person, being an elder, even though I know that points to to beacons. And if that's being a renegade, what a what a glorious thing. Right?
T.J.:I know. Yeah. I mean that as a high compliment.
Harry:Oh, yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Harry, looking at your life presently in 2022, If somebody was to ask you, like I am, where is God in your life right now?
Harry:I can't I can't say more intimate. I can't say closer. I mean, how how much closer can you get where you're you're fully aware that he's in you so much so that I know when I stand up, I'm gonna send. I don't want to, but what is it? Martin Luther said trust God and sin on boldly.
Harry:And because of his presence and because he has shed his blood for me, Christ right now is is saying, you're where I want you to be. I once looked at my pastor, and we were reading something by John Piper. And I remember the author, but I don't remember what it was. And I looked at him, and I said, wow, that's really good. And he was like, oh, yeah.
Harry:This is really good. And then I I said as an afterthought, I said, don't you wish you had written that? And his response really took me aside, and he said, no. And then he filled the the gap and said, God didn't call me to do that. And I'm right where I'm supposed to be.
Harry:I know we're asking the right questions. You you know, 2022 right now is being defined by 20 and 21 in a huge way. Question I asked our folks in 2020 was, what has God revealed to you about yourself in the midst of all of this shaking up? And it's it's really stopped people. The, they're like, you get everything from, Is that valid?
Harry:But I would say for for the believers and things that really has caused them to to ponder. And then after, you know, March 13th, we were hosting Presbytery Del Cristo at our at our church.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Harry:And, we got the call that evening, Friday. We've yet to build. We have 10 acres of land. We got some money aside, but that evening, Friday 13th 2020, we got the call saying the recreation center where you're move where you guys worship is closed. And, that was the beginning of it, and it just shook everybody up.
Harry:And and, again, the Lord's hand was in it. We were we were worshiping on Facebook, Sunday morning live. And so so, we waited. We spent the night praying, and then on Saturday, we made the decision we're gonna we're gonna get through this. So we got through 20.
Harry:I call that the survivor stage. I'm answering your question, DJ. And,
T.J.:Well, I would let me let me interject. That's right. I was there, in Albuquerque.
Harry:Oh. Yeah. That March.
T.J.:Yeah. Because I was trying to return home as as airports were shutting down and, you know, travel was getting really tight.
Harry:Oh, TJ, I'll never forget you. Yeah. I remember that.
T.J.:That that's right. I but I didn't realize that, so I left, what was it? Friday or no. Saturday. So that next day, you guys moved for the first time to virtual worship.
T.J.:Yeah. Wow. Okay. I I interrupted you. Please carry on.
Harry:No. No. We no. I'm glad you know, TJ, I'm glad you reminded me of that because I know we've crossed trails way back, but of late more so. Well, anyways, so you were there for Thursday night worship.
Harry:Right?
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Because I preach.
Harry:At the rec center up in Rio Rancho?
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Harry:A gal a gal in the back started singing, Isaiah's, song in Isaiah 40. I hear a voice of 1 crying, prepare you the way of the Lord in the band, and it it we just to me, it was marvelous. Well, Presbytery Del Cristo did not meet in person for another year and a half. Right. It wasn't until August of 21 that we started meeting, in in person, and that was you were at that one too, on Zoom.
Harry:And then, we meet presbytery's in another 2 months in March, and that'll be the first time that we're not doing any Zooming or anything. Everything is gonna be in person. And, which I think is cool because as as you know, this is the home of general assembly 2022.
T.J.:That's right.
Harry:Excited about the the world coming here, and, I'm trusting that, as Heights, Cumberland, and Westside Cumberland cohost this and all that kind of stuff, it'll be, it'll be pretty cool. So, anyway, I got off track.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. I got you off track.
Harry:Everybody no. No. You're good. Everybody got up. The 20, shook everybody up.
Harry:At the end of 20, I started preaching. The shaking that you all are feeling and going through was not of the devil. It's not of yourselves. There's no question in my mind, the shaking the church is facing right now is none other than god himself. Christ is judging the church.
Harry:He's shaking us. And instead of that being a a negative thing, I think that's to recalibrate our thinking, like, stop. It's nobody's fault. It's god doing it. And if it's god, then it gives us permission to say, okay, lord.
Harry:What's going on here? And the thing that I I spoke to my people about that I still believe is true is that, if it's God doing the shaking, then and we're feeling it, and we're we're at the church, we're we haven't left, the faith, then he is telling us in no uncertain terms that our faith is real, but it's been untested. Similar to me sitting in an an Atlanta Baptist church sharing, if this was if this was church for you these days, would you still be coming and just be like, no. It's just this lack in the fullness of the spirit. Nothing against that outfit.
Harry:And so, the bottom line is is that, our faith is real, but it's been untested. God is the one doing the shaking, not man. And now, TJ, I'm feeling very strongly about where our next step needs to go. And that is we, I'm I'm using this, I'm using this, this goal of general assembly in 6 months from now as as something to help us develop a a clear understanding of the Cumberland Road. I like the title of of this blog, and did I use the right terminology?
T.J.:Yeah. Podcast, blog.
Harry:Podcast. Thank you. Thank you. I don't know what I'm saying. I heard one of the kids say it.
Harry:I don't know. And, but, out here, people will say, well, what is a Cumberland? I'm being redundant here to a degree, but it's there is so much depth in the way this outfit was birthed and so much clarity in how he has sustained us. And we we got robbed in 2,000 no. 1906.
Harry:The the the nomination got got robbed as far as I'm concerned, and and yet we're here. And I'm I'm don't don't look to me to to be one of the people that poor mouth or pity the size of our church. God is always using a a people. Invariably, it's not the pastors and the leadership. He's always birthing revival into some of the, the most seeming unseeming people, And, and I I really believe that's that's our hope right now is is Christ is is shaking us out, shaking us loose, that we would we would recognize, you know, TJ, that's this whole thing through through, revelation with the 7 churches, had an opportunity to go to all 7 of those places and, just kinda drilled in, the clarity of of Christ and shaking the churches.
Harry:I mean, what could be more shakeable than to hear, hey. You guys have done really well. You've been faithful. But this one thing, you've left your first love. And it's like, woah.
Harry:And that's the high point. And I realized 2 other churches didn't get didn't get judged, but, what a gift. What a gift. You know, when I was in business, if if we had a a a month in the red losing money, what a gift to have the truth. It's like, what are we doing?
Harry:What what did we do? Mhmm. And I think that's what God's given the gift to us right now. He's saying, guys, you're in arrears. You're you're in the red in your relationship with me, and it's time for you to face it.
Harry:And you can't mask it over with with, formalities, institutions. The church has got to get back to its first love. So that's that's what I'm seeing happen now.
T.J.:So, Harry, for the church in the near and far future, what vision, what hopes do you have for it?
Harry:I I promised you you can't stump me with any questions, but I'm I'm right now trying not to cry. So I'll have to I'll have to address it.
T.J.:Take your time.
Harry:He's taken out the the heretics, the Joel Osteins. You know, when you hear a word being preached that only works with affluence, and the only people getting affluent are at the top. When you see a government that the sim similar fashion, they're either hucksters or heretics. They're either a Joel Osteen or a a Jesse Jackson reverend. And he's he's flushing all of that out, and he's calling folks, like you and I to say, I am bringing the church into a a a time of purification, and this is the time that my house should be a house of prayer.
Harry:My house should be a house of worship. My house should be a house of communion. My house should be a house of of fellowship or or quite literally partnership. That's one of the big challenges right now is I tease my family. I said, you know, one of the advantages of this whole time that we've been through is I didn't know we had so many medical experts in our family.
Harry:Everybody's a physician. Everybody's a specialist. And, of course, that means nobody is. And, and we do have scientists. We do have, doctors, and, they all are in disagreement.
Harry:And and it's the church that is the one place, that is the one call that survives all of these things. Christ doesn't come back for x y z hospital. I'm thankful for the gift of hospitals being birthed by by churches. He doesn't come back for Harvard or Panama. I'm thankful those place were birthed by Christ.
Harry:But he comes back for the church, and it's my prayer that we would be faithful with these small things that he's called us to do. Big challenge I have right now is is teaching our people what does it mean to partner beyond the pain, if that makes sense?
T.J.:Yeah. That's a good question. And it it it's one of discipleship.
Harry:Oh, yeah.
T.J.:With my baggage, how can I continue to live out my faith and deepen it as I go along? Yeah. My baggage of mistakes and mishaps and vices and, blinders and all the all the stuff that comes with me and my personality.
Harry:DJ reminded me of a sermon illustration I I did, and I think it's time to resurrect. It has been several years, but, I brought a suitcase to church and made a big deal of taking the the baggage and placing it outside the door and explaining that when I leave this morning, I can pick up my baggage if I want to, or I can leave it there. And I'm encouraging all of you to start recognizing that Christ is not gonna let us long be preoccupied with distractions, detractors, or diversions. Those three things, we have got to say no to.
T.J.:Yeah. Okay. I haven't thought of it that way. Kind of that spring cleaning, going through and getting rid of the stuff that is holding you back.
Harry:Using choosing to leave it behind. I I call it being done with it. Done with the baggage and being a and if and you can't just do the negative. You gotta do the positive. And if you're done with it, that's an important dis distinction.
Harry:We gotta make that decision. A lot of folks don't wanna be done with it, and that's why they're not coming to church. But this flip side of it is is you gotta be alive to it. And alive to what? Alive to this is the place that Christ returns for.
Harry:This is the place he shed his blood, Acts 2028. This is the place that Christ, will return.
T.J.:Harry, this has been an interesting conversation, and it's allowed me the time to get to know you, a little bit better. We just never had this opportunity in other settings. How can others continue to follow you on your faith journey?
Harry:Be like Paul. You know what? Well, I think I think one of the things that we did this year, then this may be helpful if anybody's hung in this long, is I did a whole series on providence. Just that one attribute of God, the providence of God. And, and it did not only, I think, was probably made the biggest difference in our church this summer, but also made a big impact on the preacher is, and we didn't exhaust the the topic.
Harry:We didn't exhaust the characteristic that god is here. He's involved. He's he's not, you know, like, start preaching again. But I would I would say helping your people understand that attribute of Christ, his providence. Second thing is his holiness and, and that that clarity that he doesn't have a a plan b for holiness.
Harry:He doesn't have a a he done great on the curve. Instead of that being a a condemning thing, it's really encouraged to say, oh, you mean this this really is something worth, yielding to, submitting to.
T.J.:Yeah. And that the word providence and the confession of faith for Cumberland Presbyterians, well, that word and that term comes up really early. I had to look while you were talking. I was like, oh, okay. I need to see how early, but, yeah, in the early early aspects of our confession of faith, there it is.
T.J.:There's providence.
Harry:Boy, I I love that that genesis of this denomination. We didn't try to go off and do a new thing, and you can just see God's hand working with our faithfulness of saying, Lord, we're just petitioning saying, please address these doctrines that we think are unscriptural, and, and and it was for that that we were the presbytery was dissolved. I'm preaching to the choir. I get that. But I I think that's no less an issue right now is recognizing God hasn't turned his back on the church.
Harry:That old saying, you know, if anybody's left, it's us. And, comfort comfort my people.
T.J.:Harry, where can people find you on, social media, and where can they find the Westside Church? Where where would you point them to if they wanna, dig more into a deeper conversation with you?
Harry:Or or give money?
T.J.:Or support your your ministry and
Harry:If anybody's made it this far, Cumberland Chapel, and this is the there's I've noticed there's several Cumberland Chapels, so I'm gonna have to figure out a new way to designate that. But that's what we called it right away to distinguish it from the live setting where people are actually there physically. Cumberland Chapel on Sunday mornings. We're we're on YouTube. We're on Facebook.
Harry:Under
T.J.:under Cumberland Chapel?
Harry:Uh-huh.
T.J.:Okay.
Harry:Alright. Cumberland Chapel, the truth streaming ministries of Westside Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Rio Rancho, New Mexico. Alright. Westsidecpc.org. Westside, one word, cpc, Cumberland Presbyterian Church, dot org.
Harry:And, TJ, if you don't mind me giving a plug, we we own 10 acres of land out here. We don't need 10 acres, but Lord just placed it in our lap. That's a whole another story, but we are striving to get built. We were supposed to break ground that March when everything got shut down, and we lost a significant number of, folks at that time. And so we have the land.
Harry:It's paid off. We do have a a building fund. And if and if anybody is is, in a position to to make a significant, investment in that, and, of course, prayer. I don't say that casually. I'm serious.
Harry:When you watch that happen through so many lives is, God changes things. So thank you, TJ.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with me on the next journey down Cumberland Road.
