Isaac Gray - Music, Worship, & Being Authentic
Welcome to the Cumberland Road, where I have conversations about how one's faith impacts their daily life. I am your host, TJ Malinoski. My guest for this episode is Isaac Gray. Isaac is the minister at the Smithville Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Tennessee. Isaac and I converse on his faith, his ministry, on Christian music, the importance of taking a rest, and on being authentic in ministry. Enjoy this faith journey on Cumberland Road with Isaac Gray.
T.J.:Okay. Isaac, we were talking and I didn't, hit record. So the question I was asking you, and this was casual, do you play the drums? Because we were talking about how you have physical similarities. You look like different people that are famous. And so I was introducing you to this guy on YouTube, who does like drumming YouTube videos. And then you were telling me that you've been compared to Tom Cruise and Adam Levine. Mhmm. And then our conversation went to drums because I know you play the guitar. So do you play the drums, and then we'll pick it up from there?
Isaac:I do not play the drums. I wish I could. It'll be awesome. But I do play guitar, but not expertly. So, yeah, I was saying that my brother is a he's been playing longer than I have.
Isaac:He's he's gifted and skilled. He leads worship at a church in Greene County. And so after he started playing, like, of course I'm older and I I wanted to. Mhmm. But my my thought and I don't know if it's a prayer, but my thought was always, like, Lord, just give me enough talent to be able to play some church songs, right, to play some hymns and play contemporary some contemporary songs.
Isaac:Because I think it's beneficial for the pastor to be able to do those sorts of things.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Isaac:For nursing homes is for one thing. For church, if you're in a small church, you don't have a lot of musicians. I think it's just kinda handy. And so I've always been able to do that. And so and, yeah, your question before as I recorded was, do I play any secular songs?
Isaac:Not really.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Isaac:I don't have much of a desire to just sit down and ever play guitar. Like, I can if I need it in church or whatever. I do it. And that's about all I've ever needed it for, and the lord gave me that. And so I'm grateful for it.
Isaac:So
T.J.:Are you self taught, or did you take lessons? How'd that work?
Isaac:Well, well, I think I took a few I think I took a couple lessons, and I think I took maybe a lesson or 2 in or took, like, a guitar class in college, I think. But, again, my like I said, my brother is an expert musician. So he anybody can play good, can teach you chords at strumming, pretty much.
T.J.:Okay.
Isaac:So it's it's not too terribly hard to play guitar. It's really not.
T.J.:Alright. I'm laughing because I have no musical talent. I really enjoy music, but I do not sing and I do not play an instrument. Yeah. I admire those that can do 1 or both.
T.J.:And that that's why we were talking, off mic is, just the ability to play. So I am one of those ministers that does not have that tool or that gift or that ability to be able to play an instrument in a nursing home or at a retreat or revival or a camping experience. I'm not able to bring that to the table.
Isaac:Yeah. It's pretty handy. And my my whole family on both sides are very musical. Like and I'm one of the least musically talented people, especially on my father's side.
T.J.:Do they look down at you?
Isaac:No. They don't, but they can all sing amazingly, beautifully. Like, I have not only was my brother in music ministry, I have 2 cousins as well that are in music ministry. 1 sings with the selling gospel quartet, and another one of my cousins, these are like second cousins. He he leads music at a church as well.
Isaac:And so my family's been both sides again. They've been singing in church since, well, long before I was ever born. So it's so I have that rich heritage. And I'm thankful I got just a smidgen, just a little bit of that talent, but not near as much as some of them have.
T.J.:Isaac, how does music play into worship in in its role from your perspective? It is it a compliment? Is it a necessity? I mean, what is your view on that?
Isaac:Yeah. I think we should say, first of all, probably that music is not a necessity for worship. Right? Because we wanna have worship that goes beyond as far as a heart posture, we wanna have music we wanna have worship that goes beyond into let me let me say that again. When it comes to worship, we want it to go beyond just music.
Isaac:So often we make it about the music. Right? I sing my favorite hymns that I like, victory in Jesus, whatever it may be. And it makes me feel good and emotional, and it leads me to worship. Or in the other vein, we have our contemporary songs, you know, gives me the chill bumps, makes me raise my hands, and that's worship.
Isaac:Now that is part of it. Right? And I think we agree with that, but we want it to be so much more. So we are worshiping we can worship without, quote, without music. So I think that's an I think that's really, really important to recognize that distinction.
Isaac:But or however, I do think that music is, man, music is really amazing in that it it it speaks to us and touches us in a way that just speaking words cannot. Right? Music touches us on a deep, deep level. And I don't think that's a Christian thing. I think that's a people thing.
Isaac:Like and I've used this many times with my congregation. Like, you can go to a concert. Just pick any concert in our in 2024 in our culture. Any music genre, rap, country, opera, soft rock, pop, any of it. And what will you find in every single concert?
Isaac:You know what that is, TJ? What you'll find in all those concerts?
T.J.:No. What?
Isaac:You will find people with their hands in the air. Why? Because music touches us on a deeper level, and I do believe that with everything in me. And I think that's and I think all those different those hands raised, you know, whether it's just waving back and forth, hands are in the air. Get your hands up and like you oh, in the air like you don't just don't just don't care.
Isaac:Right? Yeah. Because it touches us the and I think that's the way God designed us. And so while worship is not necessary while music is not necessary for worship, I do think it's a vital part of it. Mhmm.
Isaac:And and I enjoy tremendously music in the church, whether it be the good old hymns that we grew up singing or whether it be some of the newer stuff. I love all of it. And then I think the greatest the greatest sound in the church is God's people singing. Like, I I tell I've told our we we have 2 services, an 8:45 contemporary service, 11, 11 o'clock traditional service. And I've told our guy who leads our contemporary worship, 8:45, I've said, I want you to pay attention to the congregational singing.
Isaac:If people if we're singing good, tell the instruments to back off because there's no more beautiful sound than God's people singing God's praise with just their voices. It's it's a powerful thing. Yeah. Powerful thing.
T.J.:As a minister, how do you balance, like, the lyrics of music, the contemporary music, and the theology that you hold and that you preach? Because sometimes those can differ. So do you pay close attention to the lyrics? And how do you choose the songs? What what is your process?
T.J.:What what do you go through as somebody who's in the pastorate?
Isaac:Well, I am blessed in that I don't pick out the songs for our Sunday morning worship services. We we have, like I said, the young guy who leads our contemporary service. He picks all the music for that, service, and then our organist slash pianist slash church secretary picks the music for our 11 o'clock service. And so I don't I don't pick that, which is which I love. I like that someone else can do that.
Isaac:And so I don't think through that process a whole lot. But I guess I'll give you an answer though in theory and when I do have to pick music. Yeah. I mean, I think we have to pay attention to the lyrics, don't we? We we have to because we can get so caught up in the melody and I like the tune of the song, which is not bad.
Isaac:But sometimes I think we can sacrifice the lyrical part of it if we're not careful and start saying things about God that are not necessarily true or a little bit you know, they might be close to accurate true, but they're a little bit off. Like, we don't wanna we don't wanna go there, do we?
T.J.:Well, it's just, an observation I have and it and it's somewhat critical, is a lot of the contemporary music that I hear in churches that you could pluck out, you know, the name of God and Jesus and you could put Bob's name in there or Mary or whoever. You know, you know, because a lot of them are love songs. Yeah. But, you know, it's it's a different type of love for Great. Another human being as opposed to to God.
T.J.:And so I think that's a challenge for the writers, of course, who are writing the lyrics. But, you know, there's that that may be the introduction to the faith that people are getting or that may be the level of their theology and the challenge is to be able to go layers deeper than that, you know. Yes.
Isaac:Yeah. And I and I think you have to be more aware of that with the contemporary music because so many of the hymns and not we don't wanna say that all the hymns are awesome and good because some of them are pretty lame too. But but generally speaking generally speaking, the hymns are more theologically rich and sound as opposed to some of the contemporary stuff. So I think you're right on that. When it comes to contemporary songs, you gotta be more careful because of what you have just said about some of those songs, and you can put Bob or Mary in there.
Isaac:It's a love song.
T.J.:Yeah. I think it's a good test. It's one that I do. I don't know if anybody else does this. So and again, this may be heretical, but I'm listening to it and because I don't follow Christian music.
Isaac:Yeah. And
T.J.:I'm listening to it. I'm like, well, what would what would it be like if you put Jim's name in there? You know? Or John or Sue or or whatever. Does it change any?
T.J.:Right. And sometimes it doesn't.
Isaac:Yeah.
T.J.:And so there's a distinction between Jim, Bob, Sue, and Mhmm. You know, God or the Trinity or, you know, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, you know. So, it's just an observation. It doesn't always work. But, yeah.
T.J.:Test my theory. Sometimes, maybe that is a good theological test of of a contemporary or not so contemporary music found in church.
Isaac:I'd agree with that. I sure would.
T.J.:And if not, you can call me up and throw the hate at me. Right?
Isaac:You did that already, PJ. So, be part of the
T.J.:course. So, Isaac, I was thinking about, our kind of how to open our conversation. I hadn't done this in a while with a guest, but if you don't mind, kind of think with me and and walk me through a profound experience you had that was really a turning point in your Christian faith. And, we can always bounce around and kinda go, you know, chronological if you like, but just something significant that really made the Christian faith in your relationship with God become real and something that you couldn't ignore or something of that nature. Do you have any of those experiences?
Isaac:Yes. And and my story is we were I was talking about this with my small group. We're part of a small group that meets every once every Sunday night, and I love it. There's 7 or 8 of us. Some of my favorite things all week, and we were talking about this.
Isaac:We're doing some material now that made you think about your story, like before Christ and after Christ. Mhmm. And so that part of it was they had you the book asked us to write out your like, how you were before Jesus. What were your habits? What did you think about?
Isaac:Like, what music did you listen to? What was your attitude? All this stuff. And then write out what you're like afterwards. And I was telling my group, I found that very difficult to do because I was saved at a young age.
Isaac:I don't know what age I was, but I remember being in the living room living room of my home, and I was I have no idea. 8, 9, 10. I don't know. I do have that vivid moment. And so, like, can like like, how was I before before Jesus?
Isaac:I don't really know. I was just a kid. Mhmm. So it's hard to compare, like, before Jesus and after Jesus. It's like it's always been trying to be a Chris quote Christian Christ follower has just always been part of my journey.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Isaac:So on that front, you know, it's hard to, you know, think of that specific encounter when I realized, hey. I'm a sinner, and I'm lost, and I need to be saved from Jesus. Like, I don't know what my thought process was before that moment. Right? And I don't know if and I don't know why I'm telling you this.
Isaac:I don't know if it's gonna help anybody else, but and so it's been hard for me to try to think about how is my life different? How has my life changed because it's just always been what I've known? And so it's been one of those things where I've had to just, you know, gradually grow in my faith over the years and make it my own faith as opposed to I grew up in church. I grew up in the Cullman Presbyterian Church all these years, and it's just kind of you know, it's the faith of your grandparents, the faith of your parents, and now it's it's your faith. And so it's it's been this process of trying of trying to figure out what that looks like for me.
Isaac:Now with that being said, I I can name some experiences in my life where, like, yeah, this is this is not about my parents or grandparents. This is my faith. And and several of those happened probably when I was in college. When I spent 2 years at Hawassie College, which is now closed, RIP Hiwassee College. Very sad.
Isaac:But it was
T.J.:It closed because you attended there?
Isaac:It did not. It did not. Did not. After I was gone for several years.
T.J.:Okay.
Isaac:But it was just just a 2 year junior college in Madisonville, Tennessee, around the Sweetwater, Athens area, that kind of general neighborhood in East Tennessee. And it was a small population of students, but we had a phenomenal Christian life on that campus. And we had a great chaplain who I still keep up with to this day. And so the Lord I mean, I don't want to say it was just for me. I don't want to say the Lord brought all those people there just for me, TJ, and my faith.
Isaac:But, man, sometimes I look back on it and I think, some of my other friends would say this too, like, it was so formative because as part of my core group of friends, there were Baptists, there were Methodists, there were charismatic Pentecostals, and even our chaplain, he was a charismatic Methodist. Like healings and speaking words of prophecy, all this stuff. And so I got the Lord allowed me to be exposed to all those kind of different avenues of the church and faith. And being someone who grew up strictly in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church all of my life and seeing mainly that, man, it was so, so good. And so if I thought long enough, I could probably name some specific events that happened.
Isaac:But I guess I'll just say generally, it was kind of that season where the Lord really showed me and and opened my eyes up to what this faith is about Mhmm. And assured me that that it was real in my heart and and in my mind.
T.J.:And you were able to do that in the moment, you know, to be able to reflect upon that this is really a unique place to be, you know.
Isaac:Sure. And yeah. And I think we I think I got that in the moment. And, of course, I look back now some over what is it, 25 years now, I guess? 25 years later now, I really, really appreciate that experience and what the Lord let me see and the conversations and how the Lord worked.
Isaac:And and we actually had a in those 2 years, we had a little mini revival on our campus. And it was a sweet sweet time. And I would give, like, if you could give things to go back in time and live a couple days, you know, back in a season of your life, I would pay a lot to go back to that season of life because it was so formative for me and my faith, getting to experience those things and, you know, and feeling God's presence in my life. Seeing it seeing God's presence in the life of other people and feeling him feeling the Lord in my in my own life. And it really just, I guess, cemented Mhmm.
Isaac:Like, what I'd always been taught and felt like was the right way. It it made it real in that season.
T.J.:How did you land in Hiwassee College?
Isaac:Well, my both of my aunts well, 2 of my aunts went there. Mhmm. And I just did, man. I don't know. You know, is after you sent me the reflection questions last week, and I've been thinking about this, like and I've said this about my life too.
Isaac:Do you there was a contemporary Christian artist named Chris Ross back late nineties, early 2000s, and he did quirky songs. He was pretty good. He's gotten in trouble since then with stuff he should have been doing. But, anyway, that season, he was pretty popular on the scene, and he had some just different kinds of songs. And one of his songs, I don't remember the name of it, but the tagline was, it's like trying to smell the color 9.
Isaac:Exactly. It's like trying to smell the color 9. And then he adds a little tag, well, that's kinda goofy because you can't you can't smell a color. And that's not even a color. Right?
Isaac:Or not it's not a star or however it is. And the whole point of the song was, I can't explain to you how I got where I am, but all I know is I'm here, and the Lord has brought me here. And so that's kind of overlaid my whole life seemed especially in the early years. Like, how did I end up at Ahuasi? I don't have a clue.
Isaac:How did I end up at Henry Henry College to finish my degree? I don't know. I just kinda I just kinda did. You know? That's not a good I don't know if that's the the right answer, but that's the way it's worked out in my life.
Isaac:But but but I can look back and see the Lord's hand directing, guiding, leading, you know, like a Hauwassee. Look back and and see what the Lord did. Look back at my time at Emory and Henry College in Virginia and think, man, the Lord he put me around good people again, good Christians to form and shape my faith. And then seminary, it's just it was the same thing. And so it's it yeah.
T.J.:I think it says something about our personality as well. It is good to look back and reflect and compare, you know, contrast who we were, who we are. But also looking forward as well. Like, who can we who can I can become? Who, you know, and who am I now?
T.J.:And so let's talk about the here and the now because that's all we really have. Yeah. And so how, Isaac, for you, do you know that god is present here now? And what does that manifestation look like or sound like, for you?
Isaac:It it's interesting that you asked that question. I have pondered that, not just in this season, but periodically throughout the last few years. And I don't know if this is what you're asking, but I'm gonna give it to you anyway. Like, I've thought I don't know if other pastors have this thought. Like, if you if you take the church away, if you just take it away I'm not a pastor.
Isaac:I don't have meetings, counsel people, plan services, or whatever. Like, what does my faith look like? Right? What is it outside of that? Now I I think there's more to it, but I've often had that thought.
Isaac:Like, what is the here and now? How would I know God is is present and real with me? And I don't know that I always have the right answer to that question, but but I but I think the answer is that well, I guess we'll start well, since we just talked about it, I'll I'll name my small group. Right? In that group of people, I can see and feel God's presence working through them and working in me.
Isaac:But as we share life and have conversation, like, just that interaction, that back and forth, you know, like, that's a little evidence. Like, yeah, this is this is real. Like and this is like, I connected with these people outside the church. I connected with these people as part of the church, but we're doing this. What we're doing here is not connected to Sunday morning worship or a or a planned Bible study on a Wednesday night.
Isaac:Like, we're just getting together and having friendships, and I experienced God's presence in that, and I think that's a pretty powerful thing and, pretty real thing as far as knowing how God's manifesting Himself in my life. Did that make sense?
T.J.:I I think it does. I'll, expound upon it and then you can kinda corral me in. I think there's a challenge there's a gray area for those who are Christian and maybe in a leadership role, like a minister. Like, where's that line between the profession and like the follower? And, you know, you raise the question of like, okay, what if the institution as I know it, which, you know, is my livelihood?
T.J.:What if this was removed? What is left of the faith? Who am I? Yeah. And I think that's a challenging question for a lot of ministers because it is a profession.
T.J.:Part of that ego is wrapped into the role of ministry. Sure. Male or female. So I think I think most folks avoid the question.
Isaac:Sure.
T.J.:Because the answer is, I am my profession and a Christian, but probably profession first.
Isaac:Sure. But, you you know, I think you're right on line with that. I really I really do.
T.J.:That's such a sweeping statement that I have no empirical evidence to sit back up.
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it'd be accurate. It really would because and so and not not because and so I think we pastors have to be very careful to make sure, like, am I having am am I with the Lord outside of my profession, the church, my identity, and and staying in the word and staying in prayer and and finding ways to to connect with God outside of the church.
Isaac:And and I'll I'll give you example. Just here recently, I hadn't thought I hadn't thought about this much. Well, not at all. Actually, it was just last week. I went on a hike and went camping with one of my church members.
Isaac:He's an avid hiker, avid camper. He's like, let's go. So and, of course, in Middleton, so we've got we've got a 100 places you could go to hike 4, 5, 6 miles, 10 miles, and camp. And so we went hiking last Monday. We we walked like 7 7 miles, something like that, on Monday, and we're camping Monday night.
Isaac:And so we had got back after hiking, had built a fire, and he just made up some a little bit of, I don't know, some kind of chicken stuff, chicken couscous or whatever it was. I don't know. And just perimeter around the campfire, and he, you know, he gave it to me and he had his and I just felt this overwhelming, like, sense of gratitude and thankfulness just to be there. It was dark, of course. It gets dark at 4 o'clock now.
Isaac:So it was dark sitting around that campfire, just me and him, you know, over this hot cup of chicken and couscous. There's this overwhelming sense of thank you, Lord, for this moment. Like, thank you that I can be out in creation and connect with you, Lord, through creation. As I'm hiking through the woods, we hiked out to a to a waterfall to see it, and this relation this connection I'm having with another person, Lord. And and so, you know, it's moments like that that that assure me that, yeah, god god's here, god's near, and there is a connection.
Isaac:So it there it's more than just my identity tied up in my profession, my job.
T.J.:Yeah. I think one way to test to see where we are for leaders within a religious organization like the church is how would you answer the question to a complete stranger, who am I? You know, it's kind of like that 9th grade assignment writing assignment of, you know, answer the question, who am I?
Isaac:Yeah.
T.J.:And, you know, where does that does the profession is that at the top? You know, is it is it spouse? Is it sibling? Is it parent? Is it is it whatever profession that you're a part of?
T.J.:That may may be a pointer. Maybe not be the pointer, but an a pointer of, like, how much we gray that area between a follower of Christ and a pract practicing the Christian faith and, you know, what helps pay for your medical insurance and bills and stuff like that.
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm always trying to stay aware of that, you know, that that gray you're talking about.
T.J.:And and actually I think people avoid it. Yeah. Because
Isaac:Yeah. I think you're probably I think you're probably right.
T.J.:Why not like the answer?
Isaac:Yeah. Because yeah. You're right because sometimes the answer is not what we like. It's it's it's the it's the wrong answer for a pastor to be giving.
T.J.:And it would be a question I'd rather ask of myself inwardly than have someone else ask it of me.
Isaac:Yeah. And it's it's part of that self awareness. Right? We we have a hard time being self aware as people because we are like, when it comes to me being this who deceives me the most? Me.
Isaac:I I do because I think I'm awesome and I'm I'm nailing it. But so often, I'm I'm not nailing it. You know, I'm just an old person like everybody else trying to walk this life of faith and follow Jesus, which is it's not always ease it's not always easy.
T.J.:That's so funny because the other extreme of the personality of the personhood is I'm not awesome. I'm awful. Right. You know, miserable or or whatever it may be. Mhmm.
T.J.:Sure. It just shows the dynamic of of a human being that Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty amazing.
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:So, Isaac, let's talk more about living in the here and the now. I think there's some merit in that. You had mentioned gratitude.
Isaac:Mhmm.
T.J.:And I have been living with the past few years with gratitude and humility, two areas that I will always have to work on, speak more about gratitude and what that means to you. What does that look like? And how is gratitude any different than Is there a difference between maybe a gratitude that is practiced by a Christian and maybe gratitude that is just by somebody who's not part of the faith community? Is there any difference in that?
Isaac:Yep. Probably. I've never I've not thought too much about gratitude, TJ, to be honest. Like, I just try to have it and be and and be thankful for what God's given. Like recognizing that everything I have is from the Lord.
Isaac:Like James 1:17, every good gift comes from above, from the Father of lights. Right? It's not because I worked hard or kept my life in line or did the right thing. Just because God in His grace decided to give me everything I have: my health, the money in my bank account, my car that I can put gas in and go different places, like the fact that my children are healthy, the fact that I have parents that brought me up in church who are Christ followers themselves and grandparents who are Christ followers, like the Lord gave all that to me. The fact that I'm in a church that I love for 10 years now in Smithville, and the people love me and I love them, like, man, the Lord gave all that.
Isaac:How can I not have gratitude and thankfulness, you know, for all that stuff as opposed to focusing on like, if you focus on the good things? Like, we all have bad stuff to focus on. Right? We all have problems that in in life, they're difficult to walk through and they're tough. Man, like, they're so much more good.
Isaac:The fact that I have breath in my lungs, the fact that I have a healthy body, that I like, we went on a hike last week. Dude, my right knee and my left ankle were both killing me. Not 5 miles in, I was thinking, oh, what am I doing? What am I this hurts so bad. I'm in so much pain right now.
Isaac:But, like, just the gratefulness that I still could get out there and hop through those woods for a total of 10 miles in 2 days. So many people can't do that. Right? So many people are not don't have the health to be who are people younger than me. I'm 40 I'll be 44 in a couple weeks.
Isaac:There are people who are younger than me who cannot do that. Mhmm. Right? So try to be grateful that God's given me that gift, you know, and and whatever other things, you know, God's done for me, you know, a bunch of things. Just keep those things always in the forefront of my mind.
T.J.:Yeah. I think about that as well. I think about even something as simple as putting on my shoes.
Isaac:Yeah. Yes.
T.J.:I think that there are people who are younger than me due to injury, you know, from an accident or sports injury, whatever it may be, that have to have help and assistance. And yet I think at the same time, that I do need to rely more on others, especially the older I get.
Isaac:Sure.
T.J.:To be able to, you know because I'm like, oh, man. I'll take care of that. Oh, I can
Isaac:do that. Yeah. Oh, I
T.J.:can 7 miles, no problem. I'll I'll beat you to it.
Isaac:Oh, yeah.
T.J.:You know, why are you walking so slow? That, you know, there there are limitations. And being able to depend on that community Mhmm. I think helps strengthen us collectively, but, you know, on that individual level that I'm a make it that 5 miles, that 7 miles. And it may require the leaning on, you know, a hiking buddy.
Isaac:Yeah.
T.J.:I'm I'm gonna do it. And
Isaac:Yeah. And and I think that's a good word for for pastors and ministry leaders which a lot of people who listen are ministry leaders to your podcast like like the value of the community like we tend to we tend to have like, I think back to something Pam Phillipsburg said, this is probably 10 years ago. She talked about so many pastors have a messiah complex. I don't know if you've heard her talk about this. I'll quote her.
Isaac:Be sure to leave this in, TJ. I mentioned her in the podcast. She talked about pastors have this messiah complex. Like, we can do it all. We can handle it all.
Isaac:I don't need any help. I don't need a vacation. I don't need a break. My church needs me to be here all the time, which that's just ludicrous. It's there's some a lot to be said for Sabbath, how important that is and leaning on other people and and letting other people help us because nobody can go through this life on their own.
Isaac:Like, that's not way the way we were made. We were made to be in community with other people.
T.J.:And see, for me, I think that's I'd mentioned humility earlier. For me, that's where humility comes in. Yeah. You're preaching, not that great. It's certainly not as great as you think it is.
T.J.:You're postural care. Yeah. Same thing. There are others out there who can help shoulder the load when it becomes a load. Mhmm.
T.J.:And and why not share in the graces of the community?
Isaac:Yes.
T.J.:Unless the community that you have surrounded yourself with is not really, you know, like, circular, but it's more pyramid. Man, what a fall once you do fall. It's gonna be a long tumble.
Isaac:Yeah. You know it. Yeah. And it's and it's and that's another one of the things I thank the Lord for often that that God has given. Let me pastor a church and let my family be in a church that that doesn't expect me to do everything and and will let me rest and take a break and say, hi.
Isaac:Hey. I need I need help. Mhmm. And that's one of the reasons I love this church so much. Like, it it's it's a gift that the Lord has given me and a gift that they have given me.
Isaac:Right. To to to just be, yeah, to to to not always be the pastor, to sometimes just be a normal person, and just sit in a circle of people and talk as one of talk as another fellow human and not I'm the pastor. You people are the lesser than the pastor. Just the lay folk who don't know as much. Now, you know, I'm always the pastor.
Isaac:Right? I I I get that. Every pastor knows that. You always are, quote, on duty. But I think if a church can give their pastor that freedom to relax sometimes and just be one of the people, that's a huge gift.
Isaac:Huge gift.
T.J.:Not a lot of people have that opportunity or have cloaked themselves in the role so deeply. I guess we've talked extensively about that already. Yeah. So for those ministers, those church leaders, because you don't have to be a minister, when they are in that place, what advice would you give them, Isaac, in terms of kinda like stepping out, stepping away, or, not wearing the role all the time? Right.
T.J.:The role specifically, I guess, of minister. The the profession.
Isaac:I would say probably 2 things off the top of my head. Number 1 is and I'm a big proponent of this. Be honest. Don't put on a show. Don't try to pretend things are not what they are.
Isaac:Be honest. Be authentic. Be real. We can talk about that a little bit later too if you want to get back to that. So be real with people.
Isaac:And I think the second thing that I've I've had to learn this, not the hard, hard way, but I've had to the Lord's had to show me, like, take a Sabbath. The reason I was on that high class Monday is that's my Sabbath day. Like, I was taking a break and letting people know, hey. I I can't be on call 20 fourseven, 365. It's not possible.
Isaac:It's it's not. I have to have rest and break. And so I think that that's one real place to start. Be intentional because probably, like, what was last year, fall of last year, maybe, middle summer of last year, I I told my session several times, like, I just feel tired and worn out. Like, I'm ready for a break.
Isaac:I'm ready for, like, a 6 month break. And I I I figured out not long after that, well, maybe I should say the lord let me see it, that I was at the church 7 days a week. That is not sustainable. But you know what happened, TJ, when I when I was became intentional about became intentional about a Sabbath day every week? Man, I I felt pretty fresh.
Isaac:I enjoyed much more coming to the office. I enjoyed much more preaching, preparation, all that stuff. It became more enjoyable because I was fresher as opposed to going through the grind every single day. So I think that's a very practical way to start. Start making yourself take a Sabbath, whether that's a Monday, Friday, Wednesday, Thursday, whatever.
Isaac:Half a day, do it. Get away and do something. I mean, we we don't take that serious and because we're we're messiahs. Right? Messiah complex.
T.J.:So you take just one Sabbath, one day.
Isaac:Mhmm. I do. Yeah.
T.J.:That's an improvement from 0.
Isaac:Yeah. Well, I mean, it's it's a day every week. I try to take the same day every week. You know, and sometimes that can fluctuate based on the week. But I'll try to be pretty intentional about taking some time.
Isaac:And that can be a hike or disc golf or it can be, you know, a lunch with friend a friend or just peddling around my house and my shed one afternoon. Just something to shut my mind off from quote the ministry stuff that that which is my job.
T.J.:Do you completely unplug, like, phone is away? You're not responding to Facebook messages, text, phone calls, emails?
Isaac:No. I don't usually do that. I mean, it and it depends on what I'm doing. Like, on those days, I'm not looking at it quite as much. But, again, one thing that's beneficial too is my people know.
Isaac:Monday is my day off. So unless somebody is is dying or something serious has happened, just don't contact me. Let's just wait till Tuesday. And if you let people know that and remind them consistently, most of the time, folks will respect that. They really will.
Isaac:And so I don't get too many air phone calls or Facebook messages or text on my day off because my people leave me alone because I've made clear, that's that's my day. Don't mess with me. You know, say it very nicely, of course.
T.J.:Isaac, how did you get into the ministry? We've talked about it the entire conversation. But we haven't talked about how you entered into the ministry.
Isaac:Okay. Like logistically? Is that what you what you asked?
T.J.:Well, you're calling, You know? I mean, thing things were great at Yes. And then you finished up your degree where did you mention?
Isaac:At Emory Emory and Henry.
T.J.:Okay. Emory and Henry. And then what? And you were in school. What were you in school for?
Isaac:Yeah. Well, well, let's just go back to let's go all the way back, TJ.
T.J.:How far back?
Isaac:Until, like, middle school.
T.J.:Okay.
Isaac:Well, not all the way back. Partly way back to middle school. When I was in middle school, you know, they make you and even in high school too, they make you go to all these career fairs. You know, job job days, and everybody's there. Tell me about the job.
Isaac:And I remember going to those and always thinking, none of this stuff sounds any good to me whatsoever. I don't wanna do any of those things. And there there might have been a 100 people there with their job. I don't wanna do any of this stuff. It all sounds nasty and gross.
Isaac:I'll look back now. You know what all sounds nasty and gross? Because the Lord's called me to ministry. And so I wasn't thinking ministry at those at that point in life, but I look back and say, yeah. The Lord was saying this is none of this is for you, man.
Isaac:This is not yours. And so I I continue to grow my faith through high school, and it was after my freshman year of college. You know, I I talked about being at Hawassie and how formative that was for my faith. After that 1st year of college, I accepted the call to ministry. I was sitting at First Baptist Church, Greenville, Tennessee.
Isaac:They were having a revival. The preacher was preaching from Ecclesiastes 2 and Ecclesiastes 12. I don't remember what he said, but I remember thinking at the end of that sermon, and I didn't this wasn't like an altar call. This would happen in the pew at the end of that service as the guy I think he was still preaching, and I just felt the Lord nudge nudging my heart, calling me to ministry. And I said, okay.
Isaac:I'll do it, Lord. Let let's go. If this is what you want, I'm I'm all in. So it wasn't like I I didn't run from it. I didn't argue.
Isaac:Like, for me, it was a very clear cut and easy. Like and so I had enough of a relationship with the Lord then, like, to hear his voice and know he's he's speaking to me, and he's calling me to this. And I said, yeah. Let's go. And so I finished college, went to seminary, got under the care of this the community on the ministry, and just kept taking the steps.
Isaac:And that was pretty much it.
T.J.:Okay. It's
Isaac:really important to us.
T.J.:You've made it sound so simple, so easy.
Isaac:I mean
T.J.:But I do like that. I mean, you you leaned into it.
Isaac:But but for me but you know what? I'll make it sound simple because for me, it was. Mhmm. Like and I don't say that proactively. I really don't.
Isaac:It's just, like, it just was easy. It really was. And and so, you know yeah. That that that's it. It was just it was simple for me.
Isaac:It's simple. Like, once I heard the Lord speaking, like, that's what I mean by simple. Once I heard the I felt like the Lord was calling me and was sure of it, that's where I said, okay. This this is an easy decision. I don't know what it'll look like in 15 years or what's next, but I'll do it.
Isaac:And so I just started just started going, walking the path.
T.J.:No. I I understand. I mean, mine would my calling was at a much younger age. And you you talked about the, yeah, the the recruitment day or whatever they were calling in high school. Yeah.
T.J.:I mean, I I knew in high school what I was going to be doing.
Isaac:Okay. So
T.J.:it didn't seem like, it wasn't a productive time for me. I mean, I didn't mind walking around and looking, but I'm not gonna do any of these, you know.
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:It's just going going to be. So I can relate to that.
Isaac:Uh-huh.
T.J.:I also know that most people don't have that type of path.
Isaac:Oh, sure. Sure.
T.J.:And so or and who are currently not on that path. And to hear these 2 middle aged men talk about, well, it was easy. It was, you know, it was just I didn't put a lot of thought into it. There was no alternative. That's what it felt like for me Sure.
T.J.:Is is, this is this this is it. And Mhmm. I was excited about it. And there just wasn't room in my head, then nor now, for, like, well, what if I try this? Or Mhmm.
T.J.:What if I go down this path?
Isaac:Mhmm. Yeah.
T.J.:Yeah. And
Isaac:Yeah. I've always yeah. Like, so you would agree with me when I say this. Like, if I was not doing ministry, I don't have a clue what I would do. No idea.
Isaac:Work work at a retail store somewhere, stocking shelves? I don't know. It'd it'd be pretty lame, but I don't know what it'd be. Not that those are lame not that those are lame jobs. It sounded it sounded bad.
T.J.:You're backpedaling. Well, you know, I've done both, you know. So I I've been by vocational, tri vocational, quad vocational. Mhmm. I don't I found meaning in in all of those, but Oh, sure.
Isaac:You can.
T.J.:Not at the level of what what I feel like I have been hardwired for. And so, you know, the fulfillment level is has been different for me. But I have found meaning in those. And in many ways, you're talking about the Sabbath, they became in a strange way little mini Sabbaths from, ministry. Because in my I I'm not a good multitasker.
T.J.:So, to be to be doing one thing yet thinking about another, I'm just not able to do that well. Sure.
Isaac:So I
T.J.:had to focus on what was in front of me because it's the here and the now.
Isaac:Oh, sure. Yeah. Makes sense.
T.J.:And, so yeah. For so yeah. Mine's different, and that's not why we're here. But
Isaac:Right.
T.J.:Yeah. There's some similarities there. Let let's talk about some of the folks who have been formative in your faith, who've kind of shepherded you along. You've mentioned your parents. Mhmm.
T.J.:You know, has there been other people within your family or your circle that has formed your faith, but and also your ministry as well.
Isaac:Yeah. Like, you you mentioned people in my family. I'll give a shout out to my entire family. Right? Parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles.
Isaac:Like, I'm beyond grateful, TJ, to be to have been raised in a Christian home, in a Christian family. Being in the church, serving the Lord through various means of, of ways, it was ingrained in me from day 1. And so my, and my my family just didn't go to church. They were Sunday school teachers and song leaders and doing all kinds of different things. And so that's a huge huge gift, for me that that and so I I give a shout out to all of them for my entire the first 18 years of my life through graduate high school.
Isaac:They were all very very formative. Church camps, all that stuff and so I'm grateful, to all of them. But I think probably the one person that I would have to give would say had a huge maybe the biggest impact on my faith, on my ministry. Talked about a couple of them already, my my friends at college. But another was my mentor, who who showed me what it meant to what, show me what what faith and ministry were really about, which is just to to use to sum it all up, which is discipleship.
Isaac:Right? That's what it's all about, teaching people how to follow Jesus. And so he invested in me, and then this is kind of from a distance as well. I wasn't ever in the same geographical area as him a whole, whole lot, but it was enough to to just get a glimpse of, of what it looks like when someone kind of pours into you and teaches you and shows you what it means to to follow Jesus and to help other people do that. Mhmm.
Isaac:So that would so probably him I put him to the top of the list as far as after I was an adult, and I could kind of think through issues and understand, like, you know, what what it's really all about more about. And so I think he would be at the top of that list.
T.J.:Did you wanna share his name, or did you wanna leave
Isaac:his name? His name is Renny, Renny Ryder. He's not in the CP church. He he was he was a second career ministry minister, started a church. And just his passion for the Lord, man, and passion to to teach people.
Isaac:He was saved as an adult. And, like, his love for Jesus and evangelism and discipleship, it just it just kind of oozed out of
T.J.:him. It's contagious to be around those Yes.
Isaac:It really, really was. Like and you like, he's one of those guys where you you you're around him for a while and you think, man, I want that. Give me some of that, man. Like and so you just and, yeah, to see that in him, and that was that was huge. That was massively huge, and I'm I'm grateful for it, really.
T.J.:I can see in your ministry, you know, as an outsider looking in, just an observation that I can see you walking alongside somebody even for a long period of time, in different seasons of their life, whether, the whether they're a person of faith or not, just being able to kind of disciple is a word that you use. But I I think just be that person to walk alongside of. And because you have at least you outwardly exhibit patience and and you have this, genuine, sincere sense of caring that that, folks can sniff through whether you really care about them or not. And I think those are pretty key elements, to have that patience and to to have that caring. Because, man, life is messy, you know, and complex, and doesn't have answers and solutions for all the questions that we have.
T.J.:And it can be pretty frustrating, which can then frustrate you if you're walking alongside them. Oh, yeah. You're like, you know, there's no place of arrival.
Isaac:Yeah. And I think that and I think that's what it's about. I really do. We could pull it all down. I think that's what it is.
Isaac:It's it's not about like, I'm a I'm in the institutional church. It's what I do. But so often, I think we we think that's where it's all found, right, in the systems, in the methods, in the things, but it's not. It's it's in like, this goes back to what I mentioned earlier about and I so could circle back around. Maybe it's a good time to circle around back.
Isaac:This whole idea of authenticity and realness. Like, to walk alongside people, you have to have that. You have to be real with them. And I think there's such great value in that. And so, like, that's what I try to be to people.
Isaac:Just authentic and genuine and real. What better thing could I give them? That's better than all the answers. Right? That's better than some kind of platitudes we have on coffee cups and hang on our walls.
Isaac:Let's just be real. And I found that people appreciate that so so much because when it boils down to it, I'm just like every other Jesus follower. I'm just trying to follow him as best I can. And do I have questions about that? Yeah.
Isaac:Do I have all the answers? No. Are the things I don't understand? Of course, there are. Are there ways that I mess up a bunch and bad?
Isaac:Well, certainly. Like, just like just like all of you do. You know, just the only reason I'm standing on this stage preaching and you're in the pew listening is because the Lord's all fit to do that. That's the only reason. It's not because I'm better than you.
Isaac:I'm just like you. And so I think people appreciate that, and that's such a huge piece of discipleship and walking alongside people. And if you can't give that and offer that, then then then you can't then you can't disciple people. Like, you shouldn't even be a pastor probably if you can't give that if you can't give that to people, that that realness.
T.J.:How how real should we be? How authentic should we be to the point that, you know, if I don't like what somebody has said Mhmm. Or not said or or what they've done, how authentic, how real are you? Are you one of those that just will go, hey, you know, DJ, you said this. And you didn't ask me, but I don't like what you said.
Isaac:Yeah. See, I I don't know. Yeah. I don't think
T.J.:I'm pushing a bit here, you know. Sure.
Isaac:Of course. Of course.
T.J.:When I hear folks and you did not say this, so this is why I'm bringing up.
Isaac:When I
T.J.:hear folks say, well, I'm an open book. Yeah. You know, ask me anything that you want to. You know, not just on a podcast, just in general. My thoughts are, well, you're not by saying that.
T.J.:I don't know. Maybe and so in that same mindset of, like, how real, how authentic, you know, because if I'm as real and authentic as I want to be, I'm gonna go around the entire planet and just be telling everybody what I think about them or, you know, what they've done. And it'll just make the world at times probably not a great place. You know?
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:They're just Not
Isaac:yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't yeah. I don't mean be a jerk.
Isaac:Right? We we don't we don't wanna be a jerk to people. So there are times you keep things to yourself. But but when I say be real, be authentic, it just means it just means show your struggles. Right?
Isaac:I have struggles just like you. You know, I think that's what we mean by authentic because so many pastors and ministry leaders are not that. Mhmm. Like, in you know, there's a whole there's a 1,000 page list of pastors and ministry leaders who have fallen because they were they were living a double life. They weren't being honest, you know, for whatever the reasons were.
Isaac:And so that's what I mean by being authentic and real. Just like I'm just like one of you. And and and sometimes maybe you should share a little more than you think you should. Like, I give this example. When I first got to Smithfield, like, I am a I'm more of an introvert than an extrovert, And not so much that I I I do fine in crowds.
Isaac:I do fine with people. But there are times and this is a personality thing. My my fam a lot of my family is like a lot of the men in my dad's side of family are like this as well. Like, there are times when I just want people to leave me alone. Right?
Isaac:So I would tell my church folks, like and this is this is in the early days of us getting to know each other. And I would tell them, like, there are times when I don't wanna be around you all. And listen, it's not because of you. It's because of me. For example, like, there are times, like, when we have a potluck meal.
Isaac:What I want to do is get my food and go sit in the corner, eat it by myself, and not talk to any of you people. Not because I don't like you. I love you. You're awesome. I just don't like talking to anybody right now.
Isaac:So just leave me alone. You enjoy yourselves. Have your meals together. Talk and have a great time. I'm fine.
Isaac:Again, it's not you. It it's me. And so that's what I think I mean by just be real. Just be honest. You know?
Isaac:Just tell people I'm just like you. And I think another another thing too is, like, being real in bible studies and sermons. There are times, TJ, I'm sure my people, when we're in Bible study, I say I don't know so much. They probably just wanna smack me. I don't know the answer to the question you're asking.
Isaac:I I've even said that sermons too before. Like, you know, if we're talking through an issue, whatever it may be, some people say this about this. I don't know what the right answer is. I'm not really sure. So you just have to be okay with that, but I don't have an answer for you today.
Isaac:And I think people appreciate that. I really do.
T.J.:Oh, yeah. I mean, to be able to raise questions that we don't have an answer to enlarges the question to others who may be wondering the same thing. Maybe it's never crossed their mind before. And so then it becomes a shared question for those who wanna pick it up and make it their own. Mhmm.
T.J.:Oh, yeah. And maybe, just maybe, there's a solution among the community or at least there's comfort in knowing that, hey, others don't know either. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Because the alternative is just silence. You know? You know, which Yeah. Which silence, quietness can be good. Yes.
T.J.:But, you know, it's the emperor's new clothes. You know? So, I mean, nobody wants to state the obvious.
Isaac:Right. Right.
T.J.:Yeah. We have talked a whole lot about, the church. And I pulled out a book last night when I got home, off the shelf, and I was revisiting. It is called The Last Years of the Church. Mhmm.
T.J.:And I was like, well, that's interesting. I'd read it a long time ago, and then I don't know. I was picking it back up just because the title was catchy for me. The Last Years of the Church. Yeah.
T.J.:Well, before we begin this conversation, I was flipping through it. I was like, when was this thing written? And it was in 1969.
Isaac:Oh, wow.
T.J.:So in 1969, there was discussions about last year's as a church. Oh, yeah. Last year's as a church. Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Church is dying. Church is you know?
Isaac:Oh, yeah. You're still here. Uh-huh.
T.J.:It's on life support.
Isaac:Yep.
T.J.:So that is our bridge to, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, the Christian church, the universal church. Talk more about that, Isaac. How you fit in? What are your hopes for the church presently and in the future, and and where do you fit into the changing ministry, which church has always been changing Mhmm. Mhmm.
T.J.:In the coming years?
Isaac:Yeah. Oh, man. That's a big question, TJ. Where do I fit in the church? And I think it go back goes back to what I said.
Isaac:I'm just another person trying to do my part. I don't have visions of grandeur, but also don't have visions of I'm a nobody. I'm just trying to follow Jesus and and do my part in in in the big c church, in the big picture church, and in my in my local church. And and right now, of course, in the local church, it looks like me leading people. It's like me pointing people to Jesus, getting their eyes off of me, off the pastor, even off the institutional church and onto Jesus and His work and His kingdom.
Isaac:So I'm trying to just find my my little piece in that, my little corner to do what God's called me to do in this season of life and, of course, it may change in 20 years. Who knows? I mean, we we have no clue. But just do my part right now and that and my part looks like Smithville, Tennessee with with my with my church, my good folks, trying to connect people with with the one who can change them with Jesus and reach out to people in need. And and yeah.
Isaac:I mean, that's not that's not a big answer. That may seem like a cop out answer, but that's really what it is. Like, I I try not to get like you said early on, like, all we have is the here and the now. We just have the present. That that that's it.
Isaac:So let's live in it. And and not and not that we don't look forward, son. Not that we're not, you know, trying to vision 3, 5 years down the road for the church, but let's not get too ahead of ourselves looking too far ahead, or let's not get too caught up in the past on what things used to be. Like, how's the Lord using me now in my day to day life as I go to the coffee shop and the grocery store? And sometimes it looks like conversation, sometimes it looks like a passing hello or whatever, sometimes it may look like a service project, you know.
Isaac:So, yeah, I'm just trying to do my part, really.
T.J.:And then how can God use me tomorrow or next month or next year?
Isaac:Yeah.
T.J.:So there's something to be said for that forward thinking, you know, and it's hopeful as well Yeah. Of what is to
Isaac:come. Certainly.
T.J.:I don't know. It is the unknown.
Isaac:Yeah. But
T.J.:that doesn't mean that I can't lean into it with anticipation
Isaac:Sure. Sure.
T.J.:Or dread. I guess it's your choice. I choose anticipation that it it will be good as long as I have breath
Isaac:Mhmm.
T.J.:It will be good.
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah. That that that's true. And yeah, and and and it and just walking that fine line between not getting too far ahead Mhmm. But not being stuck stuck here.
Isaac:Mhmm. Right? And and I'm at a point now, like, my ministry in life, like, I can't see beyond I can't see beyond this phase of ministry right now. Mhmm. Like, the Lord's not given it to me.
Isaac:Now, you know, there are times in your life where you can you can you're in a season you can kinda see the end. Like, you're like, I know it's coming. But for now, it's like, I I I can't see past this past what I'm doing right now
T.J.:Right.
Isaac:This church.
T.J.:And I'm also asking a man who is in, statistically the middle of his life. Mhmm. You know, your lifespan, mine as well. Yeah. This this is the middle.
Isaac:Yeah.
T.J.:And and so, you know, we hope to double the number that we currently are or come close to it. Yeah. So it's this pivotal time of being able to go, I've got good, fond memories of things of the past and how are they informing now and into the future. So I think where we are in our season of life, I think is how we answer this. Answer the question, I think it pertains.
T.J.:And Yeah. The church as an institution, you know, a voice I mean, it's a loaded question every time I ask it. It is but I'm interested in it. You know, a voice shaping the church with a capital c or any particular denomination is well, it's rare. Yeah.
T.J.:You know, and especially in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, it's never a single voice. We're not built. We're not structured that way. And so, it is, you know, the many voices who Mhmm. Help shape ministry and provide a witness to the world.
T.J.:Yeah.
Isaac:And that and that's and that's what I mean. I just wanna do my part.
T.J.:I can you
Isaac:know, and and just think about the the church the description Paul gives to the church in Corinthians and Romans, like one body, many parts. You know, like, I'll be an eyeball or a pinky finger or an not an appendix. They get taken out. You know, whatever it may be. I just do my part.
Isaac:Mhmm. And I try to
T.J.:I just know that mine won't be the music part. So it'll just be some other part of the body that
Isaac:There's lots of other people who can do that part.
T.J.:Absolutely. And do it
Isaac:really well. Gotta be covered TJ. Gotta be covered.
T.J.:Well, I get the benefit of it because I don't have to practice it. Mhmm. I don't have to learn it.
Isaac:That's true.
T.J.:I get the end result. And Mhmm. And it's pretty good.
Isaac:Yep. Yeah.
T.J.:Alright. I mentioned earlier, a book that I picked up off the shelf. What are you reading? And what do you recommend to folks in who are in the Christian faith?
Isaac:Well, currently, I'm reading Pilgrim's Progress. I've read it before, I believe. I'm at least part of it. Mhmm. I am not an avid reader.
Isaac:I'm really not. Well, I want to seminary burned me out on reading, and I have not recovered almost 17 years later.
T.J.:It's really Okay. Alright. I just found it such a joy to be able to pick whatever I wanted to read.
Isaac:Oh, yeah. But and so I I kept to force myself to read sometimes. I'm jealous. I'm jealous when I listen to your podcast and you ask this question, and people tick off books. You know, they've been reading.
Isaac:They've read 4 or 5 or 6. Not I struggle to get through 1 in a in a year. It's like, oh, man. So it's a struggle for me, but I am currently reading Pilgrim's Progress. And I'll tell you what I found is the older I get, TJ, the more I wanna the more I kinda ascribe to the theory.
Isaac:Read the dead guys. Read read the dudes who were dead and the and the ladies who were dead who who who were still reading their stuff. Like because that means it was good. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Isaac:That it's substantial stuff.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Isaac:You know, the Spurgeon's and the Tozers and, you know, the the the Bunyan's, like, let's read the let's read those people. Because and they can just the way they say things are so eloquent and amazing. And I think, man, I wish I could talk like that. When I hear Charles when I heard Spurgeon give a quote on preaching, I think, man, I wish I could talk that eloquently, to be honest.
T.J.:Alright. Let me ask you another question. So what are you practicing music wise?
Isaac:What am I practicing music wise?
T.J.:Mhmm.
Isaac:What do you mean practicing music wise?
T.J.:In terms of your next song, your next melody, you know, so if it's not reading.
Isaac:Yeah. It's nothing. I'm not musically inclined enough. We talk
T.J.:Okay.
Isaac:To to know what's next.
T.J.:Alright. I'm gonna dig real deep here then. Uh-oh. So, where when is your next hike?
Isaac:I don't know. It's 2b2bd. TBD. Okay. I don't know.
Isaac:But I have I have found that I enjoy that quite a bit. That is one thing that I've gotten a little older Mhmm. Which is unfortunate. I think, man, I wish I could've done this when I was 24 instead of almost 44. My good grief, plus my body hurts somehow.
Isaac:So we'll have to we'll have to see about that. Alright. I'll let you know how it goes.
T.J.:Okay. Alright. I I I've thought of a redeeming question. Redeeming on my end. Isaac, how will you spend your next Sabbath?
Isaac:Well, that's a TBD too. I kinda those are kinda spur of the moments. They really are. You know? Sometimes I'll have a few things like my Sabbath yesterday, it was spent by taking my son on a college tour.
Isaac:So that's how it was spent yesterday. So so my Sabbath is not like a I just really, really rest. My Sabbath is I get away from the church.
T.J.:Alright.
Isaac:I don't know if that's cheating the process. I'm not I don't think it is. It is shutting down that that side of it.
T.J.:What would be an ideal Sabbath for you?
Isaac:An ideal Sabbath. Well, I mean, yeah, a good day hiking and camping, that's a good that's a good Sabbath. Mhmm. My wife and I a good Sabbath would be like a week at the beach. We love going to the beach.
Isaac:So that's a good Sabbath. A good, a a a a day with a a friend from seminary or college that I've not seen in 4, 5, 6, 7 years, that'd be a good Sabbath. Alright. Rekindling those connections.
T.J.:Yeah.
Isaac:That'd be good stuff.
T.J.:Isaac, thank you so much for sitting down and and your willingness to talk with me. I really appreciate your here in the moment and your focus on gratitude and, your sense of humor and, obviously, your gift in music. People are gonna listen to this and think that you're some great composer because we cannot
Isaac:come up that music. Impression, DJ. Right. If you're listening, people do not call me for music stuff. I'm not that guy.
T.J.:But you can be that guy.
Isaac:Very small. Very small.
T.J.:Isaac, again, thank you for doing this.
Isaac:Well, you're welcome, TJ. My pleasure.
T.J.:Thank you for joining me on this journey of Cumberland Road. Isaac and I briefly discussed the importance of taking a Sabbath. In closing, I share some words from Walter Brueggemann. Sabbath is the celebration of life beyond and outside productivity. Thanks for listening.
