Jamie Adams - The Pivot
Welcome to The Cumberland Road where I have conversations about how one's faith impacts their lives. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. The following conversation is with Jamie Adams, a minister, a school teacher, and an entrepreneur. In discussing her faith, she opens herself up, revealing the rawness that life brings, bearing her challenges and struggles in family, in her faith, in her career. I hope you appreciate her openness to share her journey. Here is my conversation with Jamie Adams.
T.J.:Jamie, when we were talking on phone and scheduling this faith conversation, I asked you the question, how did you and I never cross paths before in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church? Because we're around the same age and and lived in the same state general area. So let's pick up from there. Again, I don't know how we how we have never crossed paths until, I guess, the last couple of years.
Jamie:Right. That is a good question. And I've wondered that too. But I can say that did you mentioned you grew up and you were like knew I wanted like went to college already of the mindset to going to seminary and like that was your that's your walk.
T.J.:Yeah.
Jamie:Mine Mine was probably more I had a childhood where I guess I was moderately. I wasn't quite a Easter Christmas only church goer But I wasn't especially not with my family. I wasn't there all the time. But I did. I went to church camp like Camp Clark Williamson.
Jamie:And but not any of the bigger things like that. I I was yeah. I don't know. Just largely not trustful of people
T.J.:for I'm only laughing because I'm reading your facial expressions. Not that you said anything funny. No, It's a preemptive laugh of like, okay, something funny is gonna come up.
Jamie:Well, yeah, that's that's probably how I ended up being I I it's just a big big conversion on this side of it because now, I'm almost like Buddy the Elf. I'm like, oh my god, all these people. I love them so much. Even the ones that aren't great. I'm also trying really hard not to say any cuss words.
Jamie:Terrible habit I have. But
T.J.:Alright. And Jamie, you be you like every guest before you and after you. I want them to be themselves. So
Jamie:Well, I also try to not say cuss words when I'm at church preaching and when I'm teaching at school. So that is me.
T.J.:That's probably, probably a good habit.
Jamie:Yes. No. Yeah. But anyway, they I, yeah, I didn't there's so many ways without unless we, you want to go there. Like, I just had like the kind of childhood and experiences I've had.
Jamie:I was distrustful of people. So, I liked to what I found out is I think I was always an extrovert but I was raised to be introverted and so I had this weird sort of evolution. Like, of how I was, maybe truly how I was, but then how I was taught I needed to be. And I didn't socialize a whole lot.
T.J.:I With
Jamie:And so
T.J.:with peers and adults?
Jamie:Right. It was a one man show.
T.J.:Okay.
Jamie:Definitely. But I knew what I liked, like, circling back to church things. There was I don't know if you remember. Did you grow up in the Cumberland Church?
T.J.:Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie:So, I don't know if your church did this. I went to a very tiny, teeny weeny country church in Troy, Tennessee and they had this thing where you could get pens when you attended Sunday school And first you got like a little bronze pen and then it might have been a silver one. And then if you went for a whole year it was a full color pen. And then if multiple years you got like a wreath and you got these little badges to hang down. So you could wear this metal that's like, I've been to Sunday school every day for ten years or whatever and I don't know.
Jamie:It just happened to be. I felt to into church on a one of those Sundays when they awarded them. And I was like, holy hell. I need those in my life. Like, no matter what.
Jamie:And, again, my parents aren't super going to church a lot or anything. So I found a one of the older ladies that went to church, and she came and picked me up and took me. So I could go every day for a year to get the full color pen and start my journey of, like, Boy Scout badges for this Sunday school.
T.J.:How old do you think you were when you had that moment of, like, I want that?
Jamie:I was probably I'm gonna guess around third grade. So what would that be? Like, an eight year old?
T.J.:Yeah. Seven. I think it
Jamie:was about eight. That's also when I got spayed.
T.J.:Okay.
Jamie:And, okay, I say that in air quotes that you listeners won't be able to see but I've I love I have a love hate with salvation stories because everybody has such cool and here's my perspective. Everybody has such cool and amazing salvation stories. It's like, you got the apostle Paul up here and then everybody else and they just have these beautiful stories where they were some wonderful place and had some just enormous welling of feelings and stuff and it's it's just a great story for them. And people I've heard in years of people giving testimonies of their salvation story and how great it was. And then I thought about mine.
Jamie:And they were like do you remember when you were saved? And I was like yeah I guess. And I was like well tell me about it. And I said well the all of the kids from my church got on our does we went to we had vacation bible schools. And, you know, that wasn't it wasn't like a big sing a bunch of songs, make some crafts, whatever.
Jamie:That's what I was used to. But then I I was like a church junkie at this point. It my eight year old self. And this other church in town had a bus that was all painted up, and it was driving around picking kids up so they could go to Vacation Bible School there. And I in telling this, I don't know why my mom just let me go all these places, but I did.
Jamie:I just got on the bus myself.
T.J.:Well, it was a different time.
Jamie:It was a different time.
T.J.:It was a different time. So
Jamie:And she had two younger kids, so she had her hands full. Anyway So you I get on this bus
T.J.:to go. You get on the the Muppet bus. Do you remember the The
Jamie:Mayhem. The yeah. Like, the Muppet Mayhem
T.J.:Yeah.
Jamie:Band buzz. I've got a glass upstairs. Those are my only drinking glasses. The Muppets glasses that McDonald put out. Yes.
Jamie:Nothing to do with this story. But fun fact. It has
T.J.:it has everything to do with this story. So Oh. Well, you said colorful bus in my mind's eye. That's what I Yeah. That's my reference point
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:For a colorful bus.
Jamie:Mhmm. Well, anyhow, I'm on this bus, and I'm going to a church here in town. And I go to vacation bible school that week, and I don't remember anything about what we learned or what we did or had don't remember any great feelings of anything when my dog came up here, but this is the quiet one. Anyway, the Friday comes, the the last day. And they pulled one of those we're going to sing this last song over and over and over again until people raise their hands and they're doing the whole thing.
Jamie:Somebody in here, you know, we've had a lot of Jesus this week, and somebody doesn't know Jesus all the way. And I'm praying that somebody will pray this prayer, and they go on, and they're saying this. And we're singing
T.J.:And this is the first time you've heard
Jamie:my first experience with this kind of Okay. Stuff. And then so I'm doing, you know, like, trying to be, like, with every head bow and eye closed and stuff. I remember it so well. And we're just still singing.
Jamie:And I I remember thinking I'm like how many times are we going to sing this song? And then and then the preacher is like when we I I know we're getting ready to have our lunch and hot dogs and lemonade but I just know I feel that somebody in here, you know, they're doing the thing and so, I'm like, man, I want some hot dogs and lemonade. So, I raised my hand and some ladies take me to the back and I think I really think we're in a bathroom and like, I'm in a stall and this lady's in the stall beside me talking to me and telling me to say these prayer, like, some words. I don't know. Probably a prayer that saved my soul.
Jamie:But anyway
T.J.:Okay. Alright. Now hold on. Hold on.
Jamie:No. Yes.
T.J.:Alright. So I can visualize everything except for the
Jamie:The bathroom part.
T.J.:Stalls being used as a confessional booth.
Jamie:I don't know. But, like, in my memory, that's what it was. I know that she wasn't, like, looking at me. There she was like, it was like a separate thing and I don't but I distinctly remember this. And maybe there were multiple kids, maybe some others, and she was just, like, trying to talk to all of us at the same time or something.
Jamie:I don't know. But, also, I was eight, and now I'm 48. So
T.J.:Well, it's interesting
Jamie:Either way.
T.J.:You have placed it in time Yes. In a women's restroom in the stalls.
Jamie:Yes. It it was with a lady, and it was and I do remember repeating a prayer after her.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Jamie:And then whatever. We have hot dogs. We go home. And then it was like, no big deal. I didn't feel any different.
Jamie:I didn't have any magical powers or any grandiose insight. And I remember like that night at home, my mom asking, you know, like, well, what'd you learn about it bible school? And yeah, I'm eating my spaghetti or whatever it is I'm eating and just like, oh yeah, you know, we learned about Jesus and this and this and I I got saved and and then, you know, I'm just like, still eating like, no big deal. And I remember her kind of panic freaking out and I, do you know what that means? Oh my god.
Jamie:Like, she's super serious about it and I didn't but that's my salvation story. That is how I got saved. Mostly because I wanted the song to stop and I wanted hot dogs and lemonade. And I thought I was taking one for the team. So we could get on with our life.
T.J.:Okay. So to recap, you started to attend church regularly from a competitive nature.
Jamie:Yes.
T.J.:So that you could earn badges and
Jamie:Yes.
T.J.:Pins and and stuff. And then a colorful bus attracted you to Vacation Bible School.
Jamie:Yes. At a non CP church. I will say that. It was just a a different church here in town, but whatever. Doesn't matter.
T.J.:Without being dismissive, to that experience, obviously, groundwork was laid there. There was obviously a foundation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Because being able to acknowledge seven, eight, nine
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:That there is power out there that's larger than you, that's that's kind of difficult. I mean, it's just at that age where you're realizing that the world doesn't rotate like around you.
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:You know? And so no, I don't I think there's something extraordinary in the ordinary.
Jamie:I I can buy that. And I obviously that is that's my that's my story and I'm sticking to I mean, you know, like, I could cite other things or times in my life where I had more whatever traditional sort of experiences but I do think like definitely my first that year and that time in my life is when I first remember being I just fired up about church. Even if the motives weren't exactly the best, it it was. It was a seed. It was it was a thing for me anyway.
T.J.:Well, Jamie, I've always treated this podcast when I introduce it and talk about it. I use the phrase faith journey, you know, like there's not a destination and sometimes there's not a beginning point. Depending on who the person is. Yeah. And how God works with them.
T.J.:So I I you know, look, I know we were having fun and adding commentary to the beginning part of your journey. I do stand by that is there is foundation there. There's something there. Especially looking, and we'll get to this later, where you are now and what you're doing now. Alright.
T.J.:When you were a little girl, Jamie, you're a school teacher now. Did you want to be a school teacher? What were you thinking about I
Jamie:did when I was very young.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Jamie:So, like, my first grade teacher was a lady named miss Barnes whom I loved dearly. I just thought she was beautiful and just loved me the best of anybody and I'm sure every student felt that way in her class and I loved learning which is and that that was my first experience. I didn't go to kindergarten. But my first grade teacher, I was like, yes, I wanna be a teacher just like miss Barnes. That's not in my DNA to be like that kind of first grade teacher.
Jamie:I taught first grade last year, and I thought, oh my gosh. How does anybody stay in a room with this many six year olds? Keep them entertained and teach them things but I'm more of a middle school, high school kind of personality, I think. But but yeah, I did. I didn't always want to be a teacher though.
Jamie:I have in changed I changed gears a lot in what I do. Like, in telling my story with other people, some have noticed. They're like, oh, every five years, you do something like crazy different.
T.J.:Well, crazy different as in, like, a contrast?
Jamie:Like, possibly. Yes. So maybe I wanted to be a teacher, and then I'm like, no. I wanna be a lawyer and then, as a child later, when I was in high school, I thought I wanted to be like a scientist or some kind of research. I was really interested in genetics or like biochemical engineering kind of stuff.
Jamie:I I mean, I graduated the same year they cloned Dolly the sheep. You know, I just thought that kind of of stuff was really fascinating. But then even after that, so when I obviously, when I had my son, I was pregnant my senior year of high school. Like, those plans changed drastically.
T.J.:Okay. That is a big contrast.
Jamie:That is a big contrast. Right. Then even after that so, you know, at that point, I'm like, almost like my Sunday school self. I'm like, okay. Now I've got something to prove.
Jamie:Like, here I am 18 with a kid, so let's not screw this up. We're gonna be not just okay, but I you know, it'll be the smartest, most amazing, most well round you know, like, I'm game on. Everything else off the table. This is what I'm doing.
T.J.:Alright. Looking back on yourself Yes. How well did you do?
Jamie:Well, he's almost 30. He's probably he's definitely his own person. I mean, he's successful. He's got two kids and
T.J.:Alright.
Jamie:You know, living his best life. So my my goals were pretty simple that, like, he he was smart in his you know, he got he didn't get a lot of accolades. He wasn't driven that way, but he's his intelligence is evidence, like, pretty clearly evident.
T.J.:You made it. You were a good mom. You
Jamie:He survived into adulthood, and he's a functional adult.
T.J.:Yeah. That's I was asking. I guess I was asking more directly towards you. You set this goal for your 18 year old self. Yes.
T.J.:I'm gonna come out on top. I'm gonna be a good mom. I'm gonna, you know, shake the world Mhmm. As all 18 year olds want to do. And I'm gonna shake the world with a baby in my arm.
T.J.:That's what I was asking. Did you do it? Were you able did you achieve it?
Jamie:I I think I did. I think I did. I feel good about it. And if I'm fast forwarding in the timeline, I think that and then, you know, I have my son and then my daughter about four years after that too. So but I think and that's that's an empty nester thing.
Jamie:The empty nest is a real thing when your kids grow up and are gone. But I think for me, personally, I always had like this carrot in front of me that like, you know, like, that that I put there myself, not that other people were imposing on me but when I didn't have everything I did after that was for the, you know, it's like go to college. So, like, I think I flunked out of college sort of the first time, but I, to be fair, I tried to go as a full time student. Matthew was born at the June, like, that August.
T.J.:Oh, okay. So this is, like Yeah. Right out of high school. New mom.
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:Learning parenthood and then getting into college full time.
Jamie:Right.
T.J.:Good grief. Okay.
Jamie:Yeah.
T.J.:Okay.
Jamie:And I thought I was still gonna study the science path thing too, and I flunked biology, which was a low blow for me. Never failed anything before. And then, like, I had another class that I aced all the tests, but they flunked me because I'd missed too many days. Like, they had a really strict attendance policy. I remember it was a art history class.
T.J.:Okay.
Jamie:And that teacher did not like when I suggested that his lectures must not have been that important if I could ace the test without attending the lectures.
T.J.:And I I'm I'm laughing because as you're telling this, and I don't know you, but your eyebrows have gone up, your cheeks have risen, and you you have kind of a grin on your face. And I'm just I'm already chuckling because I'm like, okay. How far is Jamie gonna go with this story? You know, I'm kind of excited to hear Play
Jamie:right, man, because I can talk a lot about nothing.
T.J.:So, you took a break.
Jamie:Oh, I did. I was put on academic probation. So, I was like, mess with all that. Don't care. And will change and you know, I'm also a new wife at this point too with without going into a whole lot The kid's dad, this isn't like my high school boyfriend and we what it was not somebody I knew very well at all and like, our first date was probably our like, go out to dinner and was probably our wedding night, like, for real.
Jamie:So, you know, I'm just decide, okay, I'm going throw myself into stay at home mom dumb kind of and like be this picture perfect wife. Martha Stewart was real big and being Martha Stewart. So I get her books because the Internet wasn't really so big yet unless you wanted to pay per minute to be online.
T.J.:And for those for those who are listening, we've now moved from the eighties to the nineteen nineties. Yes.
Jamie:Yes. And I so I tried to just be perfect, perfect wife, perfect mom, you know, all those things and I'm not real good at that. Just leave it at that. I suspect no one is, but at the time, I felt like I was the only one that was not good at that. Okay.
Jamie:But I tried so many ways and my brand of trying would be to make lists. If you could think so like a computer software might have databases that build off each other and feed into different things. I had the paper form of that in notebooks. And I would make lists of whatever, how to keep the house. But then there might be a subset list somewhere else in the notebook.
Jamie:And then in that effort to be perfect, I mean, these are detailed lists. Like, it might be like the perfect things that I needed to have in my purse so that I had everything everybody might need around me to loan them. And the perfect things to have for your kids and to do for your husband and, like and I'd get it
T.J.:you always been like this?
Jamie:Yes.
T.J.:Even as a kid, you Mhmm. Were very methodical and categorizing kind of your does this go into, like, your daily schedule as well?
Jamie:Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I'm sitting here today in 2025. I do I have my dailies that I do, and it's lists with varying recur some things are legitimate daily that you do every day. Some of them are every other day or weekly or bimonthly or semiannually.
Jamie:I have I perfected it. Thank you, technology. But yeah.
T.J.:And that makes sense. I mean, if you're goal oriented, you know, we kinda started I didn't know this conversation was gonna be, like, chronological linear, and that's fine.
Jamie:That's because that's how my brain works.
T.J.:That's fine. But, you know, I mean, in terms of goal setting, you need action steps for goals to accomplish them. You need timelines to be able to accomplish those, you know, and how flexible you are in yourself. I mean, that's between Jamie and Jamie, but
Jamie:Not at all. I'm not at all flex. I'm better now.
T.J.:That stuff makes sense. I want to okay. So now I'm gonna kind of prod and you push back if you like. So does that translate also into like your relationships and maybe even the conversations that you have in those relationships of like what you're what you're going to talk about. You know, I I guess I'm asking, you know, given you've also.
Jamie:No, I'm not a robot and I'm not AI generated. No. No. No. No.
Jamie:No. No. Brain processes might be very close. I had I think it used to a lot more than it does now. I can say and that's kind of and I was going somewhere when I was talking about the lists and the band perfect but like in my like I think about in my marriage.
Jamie:I was doing this to try to be the best whatever, best wife, best mom, whatever. And I remember one time when my husband then found those notebooks. And he was horrified. And he was like, are you some kind of serial killer? Like, what is this mess of lists upon lists upon lists and and I was like, oh, it's nothing.
Jamie:It's just how I need, you know, it's just how things work and I can say then, like, in my twenties and thirties, I was much less flexible about the like I might know this is the list and it was like the stone tablets. But I'm not throwing these down and breaking them. We are following them. We're going to follow them in order and they better happen this way and I probab but it was all in my mind. It was in a way to just make things better.
Jamie:And it's like assess and refine and, you know, observe, assess, refine like, I changed my major to computer science when I went back to college, which probably makes a lot of sense because that is my brain. But I I would have a list, like, with times and schedules of what was the best possible time for everybody to do everything. But it was a lot, you know, if to dry your hair from, you know, 06:42 to 06:48 and then put the dryer away so you have time to do the next thing.
T.J.:Yeah. I would think that would be challenging, especially with two one or two small children in the house where Yeah. You know, a lot of things you get started and then you have to put it aside and come back to it later.
Jamie:Yes.
T.J.:Did you use your note taking or do you use your note taking in your list and like go back and assess, you know, like the the week or the day's events or last year? It did you use them as, like, a reference point?
Jamie:Like a journal kind of. Not then, really. And now, they've evolved when I was 40 let's see. I've been divorced for five years now. And as soon as I got divorced, I was like, I'm getting some therapy.
Jamie:COVID started too. So, there was a lot that needed to be unpacked and especially being a minister during the time of COVID was I understand the challenge for pastors everywhere because we were stripped of our way to pastor. And it so anyhow, I'm doing therapy and unpacking things with my therapist who I still I still have the same therapist. Five years later, like, would encourage anybody and everybody to have a therapist and to like, I think that somebody like that to talk to and to unpack with. I wish I wish when babies were born, they got a pediatrician and a therapist.
Jamie:I like, I think it's that important but I when I'm talking with her, maybe about two years in and we've gotten to the point where I confess about my lists and all the things and how I I used to just it's like it throws a code in my brain. Like, if some I'm routine driven. And if something even though I may not have it, like, on the fridge saying this is the gospel way to follow things, You you could set a clock to what I'm doing when every day. Pretty much. If you had some way of like watching like some the Truman Show or something.
Jamie:You know, like, oh, well, here it is. It's, you know, 06:48. Jamie's turning on the news and walking by that whatever. When something doesn't work, it I I freeze and stop and it's like, I cannot proceed until I fix this. Like, and then I'm late for work because I had to fix the internet because the TV wouldn't come on and anyway, I'm talking about all these things in my list and my therapist was like, do you think that you might have ADHD?
Jamie:Like, and I think we're pretty confident that the answer to that is yes. And it's never been noticed or diagnosed until, you know, half a century old. But it's a yes. It has impacted my relationships because I I just have like I think my brain works differently than the average brain maybe. And I use these lists now and these routines.
Jamie:Now, they're more like a safe redirecting tool So, I can say like, okay. I need, like, these accolades or this motivation or whatever. I also need to turn the light on. Sorry. That's how I do.
Jamie:I need these I need what I call low hanging fruits. Like, I feel like I've accomplished something today, but I also need I condense it to the important things.
T.J.:Yeah.
Jamie:So that when my brain chases rabbits somewhere else and and I can so I can catch myself. Right, Jamie? You have to go to work and you have students to teach that are gonna be walking in your door at 07:45. Now is not the time to fix the Internet and
T.J.:Yeah. So it it's like a redirecting tool.
Jamie:Yes.
T.J.:When you need it.
Jamie:Yes.
T.J.:To be able to Yeah. So you've taken something that you've designed and used for years And you continue to use it for your benefit. That's awesome. I find this stuff fascinating. I really do.
T.J.:I don't mean that in a like a derogatory funny way. I mean it as in the mind is a powerful thing. And we have coping mechanisms to help us and we don't even necessarily know why that they're there, or that we're doing it. So working through these, we have some milestones in your life. I do want us just to touch on those as you think back.
T.J.:Where is God in all of this for you? Because we in terms of a faith journey, so your life is an amazing journey. And it's got some twists and turns and some joys in it. We kind of left off where you, you had VBS one summer in a neighboring church. And so pick where you want to, you know, in terms of just kind of looking between now and back then.
T.J.:But and and maybe we can touch again on kind of kind of this cataloging. No. It's not a catalog. A planner. One of the things that you said that made me think about this is, it's not a journal because journal is usually like present or something that happened in the past.
T.J.:But a planner is thinking forward,
Jamie:which
T.J.:I find very interesting. You're thinking forward. And when you are in this to do list.
Jamie:Oh, that's where my brain was going.
T.J.:Yeah.
Jamie:I was talking about you asked about raising my kids and things and I I was saying let's see, I knew it would come back. That I do. I think forward. And that was the that moment so all in this like 2019, that late twenty teens, that's when I have and then 2020, I have like the kids are all gone and settled. Like, they're settled off out of living other places.
Jamie:And I didn't I was finished with seminary. I'd there was no more school to achieve. There was no more kids to raise. There was I had no more goals. And I I didn't know what to do with that.
Jamie:Has all I'd ever done is work toward achieving something. And I think I would intentionally set these things like out. So I don't like to finish things. I don't like things to be finished.
T.J.:So you had an open planner.
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:That must have been awfully awfully scary for an adult who It wasn't. Your entire life had a planner, a to do list, achievements, goals to accomplish.
Jamie:So I think
T.J.:What a moment of crisis.
Jamie:It was a moment of crisis. You know, personally, globally, every, I mean, everybody was in crisis. Everyone was all in crisis together and then, you know everything's shut down. So, I have nothing to do but set with it and set with god and talk, you asked like, where was god in all these things? So, like, I think I know that god it was present with me, is present, will be present all then and future and now and all at the same time and however you wanna perceive god but like, I I believe that wholeheartedly and I can see looking back evidence of god with me and there's I mean, I there's a lot of things that I could rapid fire talk about that we didn't touch on, and I don't even know if I feel like it might invite a part two partially, but I mean, like, at that time when I was eight years old and going to VBS, I had, I mean, there was sexual abuse with an uncle.
Jamie:There was, like I've kind of already touched on a little like not the most favorable raising for a child with disabilities that was different. You know, I said earlier, you know, I I was distrustful of people. I was distrustful of things and had to find ways to motivate myself just for my own. It was like there was something in me that wanted to keep me going that was bigger than me. And I look back.
Jamie:I'm like, well, I do believe god was with me I'm very hesitant to talk about when people say things like, oh god protected you or god, this was just how what god wanted and I kind of for me, I I'm going to call on some of that terminology because and and I in some context when some people say those things to me like no. I don't believe God wanted these things to happen to me the way they happened. But I do believe God was with me. And I also mentioned how I changed gears every couple of five years like my five year cycles or whatever. I can say Everything I've experienced It's like every time I have like a reset or a or a pivot the things that I've experienced like they come they build into each other and and I somehow find myself around people that are equipped that that need me to be equipped the way I'm equipped.
Jamie:I don't mean like I'm some great whatever. But at this point, there's so many I encounter so many people and so many situations and life things that will come and talk to me and not even necessarily at church but it become it ends up being a sort of spiritual conversation. And I'm like mentally go through this. I'm like, oh yeah, I can relate to being you know, in an an abusive relationship or I can relate to being a teenage mother and not knowing where how I was going to pay for, you know, the next week's worth of meals and keep the lights on. I can't, it's like I can and again, I wouldn't want to suggest that that's was I was predestined or you know, that's that's not that's not my flavor of godliness and maybe that's wrong to even say but, you know, I'm a say it anyway and god's still using me.
Jamie:So, I guess, I haven't been struck down yet.
T.J.:Well, what I think I heard you say is that in your daily life challenges, joys, things like that, you knew that God was there and is there. And even in tough and dire circumstances, you don't really see those as being presented to you by God, you know, for some teachable lesson
Jamie:or
T.J.:something valuable for you to learn. But nevertheless, you knew God was present. It wasn't something that was inflicted upon you Mhmm. Through the finger of the Lord so that you can learn something.
Jamie:Right. Yeah. No divine punishments. And I'm not gonna say that through the so Jamie, the Dark Ears, which would probably be like
T.J.:this an album?
Jamie:Eight maybe, like, eight I don't know.
T.J.:Yeah. Be careful now.
Jamie:I didn't say like when I got married we got married in a church. We got married in the church I grew up in. I I feel like a little bit of that and I'm not going to say all of it because I did, I wanted to get, I wanted to get married. I wanted to do the best thing for this baby that was coming and all that stuff but I do feel like there's in that time there were some church hurts. And that the person I married wasn't did not grow up particularly churched, even less so than I was, but but had family that was, like, ministers of this of a different flavor that had very strict I mean, I remember people saying to me, like, if you don't get married, your child will be a bastard and there's no way.
Jamie:Like, those words were said to me and that person. Yes. And trying that that part of that part trying to live faithfully with another person who maybe doesn't share your faith on all those levels in the same way. Like, my husband didn't care anything about Sunday school pens and going to church every Sunday which I mean, to be fair, that's a stupid reason to go to church every Sunday but you know, like, like, I understand that but it that was all it always became a fight and it was it was a fight within my family to church or not church. It was a fight between the families like when my kids got old enough for I was like, I want them to go to church every Sunday and have the Sunday school and the all the fun things that I remember.
Jamie:Like, it was important to me that that they have that.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Jamie:And but it wasn't important to my husband so much. So it ended up being a lot of just me and the kids going. Which bothered me because it was one of those does not compute moments but then it, you know, it become like a fight or something and then, you know, why are we even going to church? You know, it was it was a weird time.
T.J.:Let me let me pause you right there. So, you know, we're we're looking back and you know, you're a different person and and and he's probably a different person.
Jamie:Oh, yeah.
T.J.:What what advice do you have for or if any, for couples that were in a similar situation? I mean, it's not a unique, you know, where there's, you know, when you have children, you know, you want them to have some sort of, you know, faith introduction. I hear it often. And, you know, two different people may look at it from two different angles. So was anything from that experience that you would share, you know, that might be listening of like, hey, here's something to consider in your conversations?
Jamie:That's actually a thing. Those kind, I think back on though that and it's one of the things I ask when I have couples that's come to me and want to be counseled before they get married and I because I keep lists and I'm still really good at that. I usually drill right down to the, alright, we're going to talk about the things that you probably never thought about to talk about. And in that, I mean, it starts off easy. I'm like, and it always, like, every time, I was like, okay, whose house you going to on Thanksgiving?
Jamie:And then both of them are like, my mom's. And I'm like, Somebody's going to have to pick. Like, you know, like those things that you just assume everybody, we get we get we get ecocentric I think in our faith and we think our faith sometimes it's just like, okay, it's of course it's like this. This is how I've always done it and this is what you do and then, when it's different, I think it's a conversation that you should have.
T.J.:Yeah. And then the person that you live with shares the same faith and yet has a different approach or practice or understanding.
Jamie:Yes.
T.J.:You have all these commonalities and share roof in many experiences and more to come, especially in a young couple. And yet when it comes to certain faith practices or understandings or where to worship, when to worship, how you worship, and what you believe, Sunday school, no Sunday school. Right. I like this leadership. I don't like this leadership.
T.J.:All these different dynamics. And, you know, they can be worked out. They're worked out all the time.
Jamie:Yes. I sadly didn't hit the we worked it out well point ever when I was married. But it I mean, we worked it out in the way that worked for us, which was me and the kids doing a lot. And then the oh, that one. So I'm trying to get light in here.
Jamie:My house is a 50 years old, and there's no lights anywhere. I don't think computer light is any better or not. Oh, you're
T.J.:doing fine.
Jamie:But, like some of the things were very different in the church for church especially like my children not motivated by hot dogs and lemonade. Wanted to be baptized early. And people in some of the people in my husband's family were adamantly and vehemently against that. Because of their beliefs. And I that I don't think I'd ever in my life been had the way I church be challenged before that moment.
Jamie:Like I had never encountered anybody say that something I was doing about church was wrong. Now, there were opportunities. Obviously, anybody could have been like, well, Jamie, don't you think you ought to go to Sunday school for reasons aside to get the pens and the badges? I mean, they could have, but no one ever had until that moment when my kids were wanting to be baptized.
T.J.:So this may have been, pretty, gosh, pretty shaking in that
Jamie:It was. Was very shaking.
T.J.:And Maybe not even because of the topic, just because you've never been pressed before.
Jamie:Right. But it gave me well, it was one of those pivots, because that is 100% when I started because what was happening also while they were speaking against my kids and their baptisms, they were speaking so intelligently with scripture and like, this is blah blah says, this blah blah in this place and that means this and and they were telling me these things and I was like, I I will say I was I don't know how old I was. This probably would have been in about maybe around 02/2007, '2 thousand '6 That's probably around. Matthew would have been about 10 at that point. 02/1956, mid '2 thousands.
Jamie:Anyway, and I I just thought, okay, these people know more than I know. Somehow, I'm 30 years old Yeah, that's what I was trying to do, Matthew. Thirty years old. I've gone to church my whole life. I'm a smart person.
Jamie:Why are why are these people telling me things and I don't know like the best thing I can say when they're like, why would you want your son to be baptized? And I'm like, because you know, like, that's all I got. You know, like I have nothing.
T.J.:And
Jamie:so, that year, I was like, I got a Bible. I'm just going to read it cover to cover doing this and that was step one. It was to become a biblical expert. I needed to read the book first. Like, start to finish.
Jamie:Okay. Alright.
T.J.:Now hold on. Alright. Let me play devil's advocate for a moment.
Jamie:Right.
T.J.:Alright. So you're cracking open the good book.
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:The Bible.
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:And your motivation. What's your motivation in this?
Jamie:To be better at arguing with people that disagree with me.
T.J.:Okay. Yes. I
Jamie:know. I know him.
T.J.:I'm gonna try here I am. I'm thinking, okay. I have to remember before this conversation ends that we come back around and that there's a level of, you know, like, maturity and a moment of epiphany and wisdom of like, and again, I said it earlier, faith journey.
Jamie:Yes.
T.J.:This journey of being able to reflect back and discern how much we have changed. Right. I I think that's where your journey is going.
Jamie:Yes. It does. It does. It goes there. So I do.
Jamie:I read the Bible. Also, while I'm reading the Bible this year, like like my lists, I have you know, I come across things that I don't understand because I'm probably reading a King James Bible, which is already, like
T.J.:Wow. Another language.
Jamie:Hard one to read. Right. But so I start getting, like, other versions and cross referencing texts and in in the my church that I grew up in is in is in the midst of having a split, and it's it's literally splitting. I'm super involved with all the youth things and the kids because, again, for whatever reason, it was important to me that my kids grow up and so working all the camps and going to all the trienniums and the things and bringing the kids and being there and the church splits and the way our my church split is almost all of the families with kids left and go to another church. So, I'm in like two years of intensive Bible study, solo Bible study.
Jamie:I'm part of a church split from the church I grew up in. And when I say grow up, I mean, like this church had a baby shower for my mom when she was pregnant with me. Like, only church I'd ever gone to my whole life and I leave and go to this other church. What I didn't know at the time was that that church was sort of they were they were moving to be a different like it wasn't I'm learning about in in the trenches learning about different kind factions of churches and they have different beliefs. So, I'm I would say after year, in this year too, we're up to like about 2,008.
Jamie:I'm super fired up about what I'm studying and learning and, you know, I've picked up tools like the concordance that shows you, like, all the, like, like, I'm doing all this independently. And, again, making lists and keeping up with what I've learned and and I'm asking the preacher at this church where we've split all these quest like, probably driving the poor man crazy. Then he's not answering my questions. And then not only is he not answering my questions. But to me, at church, these Things aren't matching.
Jamie:Things aren't aligning. Something he preaches this week doesn't make sense with what he preaches the next week. And I'm having these like challenging thoughts and feelings and I'm like, wait. No. I forgot about this and I trust my studies and I hear what you're saying but you you're jumping to conclusions that you can't make like, this is me and I'm challenging the preacher, which is really a terrible shameful thing and place to be where I was and he was.
Jamie:And, anyway
T.J.:You have a different perspective now, don't you?
Jamie:Yes.
T.J.:He it's
Jamie:it's I welcome a challenge now, but that's but, anyway, it that church experience devolves, and it does. It devolves to the point where I need I was told to not worry so much about the studying because my place would be with the women figuring out how we were gonna decorate for the meals and cook and the potlucks and things which I haven't mentioned but aside from my brief time of trying to be the perfect mom and housewife and all the Martha Stewart books, that never stuck with me and I'm not like, that is so far removed from any innate gift or talent or ability that I have. That I was like, again, here's my church world is challenged because I've got like this huge thirst to study and know more and now I'm being told to like go to the kitchen where I belong and It it was a hard that that was hard for me. And I to go back to your previous question. I wasn't sure God was with me and during those times.
Jamie:Like like that. When things when I'm feel like I'm doing trying so hard to know and understand and then I'm being told this by people that again, some of them, I've known literally my entire life. Like, they probably rocked me in a nursery when I was a baby. And now they're telling me to stop. You know, this isn't for me to know.
Jamie:So
T.J.:when you are actually studying for the purpose of winning theological arguments. But I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and and and say, you know, to deepen your faith. Okay? Or maybe the byproduct of studying the scriptures is you're learning more about our biblical ancestors and daily practices of the Christian faith.
Jamie:Sure.
T.J.:This is when you feel the absence of God?
Jamie:This is when I thought yeah. I did feel the absence of God. I can say Those people died. I never got to argue theologically with them as to why my son needed to be baptized when he was nine years old or you know, like, that that never came to fruition. The studying took on a different life of its own but I felt like my desire to know more I think that I believed it was for lack of a better word.
Jamie:I thought it was like from the devil. Like why would a why would me just this girl teen mom trying to raise her kids right? Like, why would I even need to know more? And why was I wanting to know more and now having the preacher have to get on to me and say, calm yourself. Like, go to the kid.
Jamie:You're like, I felt legitimately like something was wrong with me. That here I was wanting to study scripture in like a study kind of way. Not like my little women's devotional journal but like a for real study it and know it and understand it and and These people that I love and trust telling me that's not for me to know or do and just the there was a push and pull within me for an entire year. I mean, I literally would just burst into tears for no reason when I was at home with this conflicting feeling like this desire to do something so much but knowing it was wrong or believing it was wrong.
T.J.:Yeah. Being told it was wrong.
Jamie:Right. And it it literally tore me into.
T.J.:So I've been wanting to ask you. I haven't interrupted you too much. And the times I have have been interrupting you. But I've been wanting to ask. So up into this point of your life, early two thousands.
T.J.:Have you know, where where are your pillars? Where are your in terms of human beings, you know, your staples, you know, the the the post in your life that you can cling on to when you have these pivot moments, I think is what you've called them. Did you have people at all?
Jamie:I I have a core group of people that is still a core group of people that I met when I worked church camps at CCW.
T.J.:And so these are people that you had that you could count on.
Jamie:I wouldn't say that yet. Not at this point. Because, again, I'm highly distrustful of people. I have a long history of not being able to trust people that I should have been able to trust from an early age. One of those friends in particular is just real persistent and as prickly of a cactus as I presented, he and his wife were just going to be my friends whether I wanted it or not.
Jamie:Thankful. I'm thankful for them. But I mean like, I'm so thankful of what some of the near, most near and dear people to my heart now, but at the time, it was like, why are you so prickly? Why won't you let me be your friend? I mean, I was getting those kind of conversations.
Jamie:Okay. But So
T.J.:there there's no nuance there. You kinda knew.
Jamie:No. I Alright. They the foundation was being laid for for them and that group. I was slow to trust, but but it was there.
T.J.:And and, you know, I I can see you kinda measuring your words and, like, you know, revealing who these people are. That's not what I'm asking. What I'm asking is, you know, it is you know, some of these dark years that you were going through, you know, are you really carrying this stuff alone? Or is there people that you have been leaning on? And I don't know who a coworker or, you know,
Jamie:family It's it's largely alone at this point. I think it's largely alone. Alright. Yes. Definitely.
Jamie:For the most part. Because I I that's how I was wired to be. If it's getting taken care of, I'm doing it. And it's and that
T.J.:But it's not.
Jamie:No. It's not. But I know that now.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Well, but that's
Jamie:what I believe. Yeah,
T.J.:going back up to to where you were the inner turmoil of, of, you know, digging into the scriptures and having theological questions and, and kind of finding your role within the church. It's not okay at that time.
Jamie:Right. No. It wasn't. And it it came to a head one night. It was a Sunday at the new church where I was.
Jamie:And again, I'm still faithfully going to church. I'm not getting pens or certificates or anything. But because that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to go to church every so and and and I'm praying, like, so much that whatever this conflict in me is, that it would just go away. Like, God, make me be right, make me be normal, make me be satisfied with the things that I'm supposed to be satisfied with and all this stuff.
Jamie:Like, this these are my prayers at this time and this one Sunday we have communion. And they stop us when we go up to the table. And they won't let the kids take communion. And maybe not me either. I don't know.
Jamie:Because the kids were in front of me. Because we needed to see they were going to have to decide if they were eligible. I don't remember the word they used. But my reaction was you're telling me somebody's going to meet and tell me if my kids are worthy of taking communion. And So, I was mad.
Jamie:I remember storming out. I'm standing outside the parking lot, taking the kids, and leaving and again, still this this push and pull within me of what I'm feeling and what I'm trying to learn and what's best and the next night would have been the next time I'm going to church. And we were driving down the road to go to church. And from my house, you drive literally down Church Street which is named Church Street because there's 14 churches on it and we're driving down Church Street getting ready to turn to where I have been going to church and right at the corner where there's a turn, there there's a Cumberland church and I was like, it's a Cumberland church. I grew up in a Cumberland church.
Jamie:We're just going to go here and I remember the kids going like, mom, what are you doing? I was like, we're going to go to this church tonight and they're like, what? I was like, I don't know. I don't know anything about it.
T.J.:No. But. That's not in your planner.
Jamie:No, it wasn't. Wasn't. So, we just pulled up in the parking lot, got out, and started going, went in that church.
T.J.:And so it was the name recognition. Mhmm. You grew up or when you attended church as a little girl. Mhmm. You attended a Cumberland Presbyterian.
Jamie:Yes.
T.J.:And you took a break during the church split? I didn't ask you that.
Jamie:Yeah. Well, so, like, my my break from church was probably when the children were very small. Like Yeah. I would say I was an Easter Christmas only kind of church goer from '95 to maybe '99. And then kinda got my life back together and started going.
Jamie:But then back to that church I grew up in.
T.J.:Okay.
Jamie:And then that church I grew up in is the one that split. And the the split was not Cumberland.
T.J.:Yeah. You went with a group that did not remain Cumberland. Correct. And now we're up to the place where where I find this fascinating. You see a Cumberland Presbyterian church, you recognize the name.
T.J.:Yes. And after your experience, three, four days earlier, this is where you're taking your children. Yes. On a Wednesday night. Not in your planner.
Jamie:Not in my planner at all.
T.J.:Go ahead.
Jamie:Didn't even know what to do. I like, didn't know what door to go in, like, what's happening
T.J.:Yeah.
Jamie:Anything.
T.J.:Oh, okay. So, really, you had no contact context. You had not been in there been to that church before. This is really new new. Okay.
Jamie:Now I live in a small town. So once I go in the doors, I see people I know.
T.J.:Okay.
Jamie:They're having a meal because they that church eats on Wednesday nights. And then they go and have the kids go to class and the people go to they have, like, an adult class. And then I and I remember going to this church and first off, a young woman walks in with two children. The church is over the moon that visitors have come like any church would be but you know, they're just excited and like, woo hoo. Get your kids and we'll do these things and and they had kids that were my kids' age that they knew from school.
Jamie:We go. I eat. I remember I ended up setting across from this very older man who's like got to be in his nineties. Who's telling me about how he had a heart attack that morning and was at the ER all day, but he had to just leave because he wanted to come to church because they were having Dwight's burgers at Wednesday night to eat. And, like, like and that would be a completely true story with this man.
Jamie:Like if he were still alive he would validate every bit of that. But I was we went to the Bible study and I don't remember I wish I could remember what time of year it was but I feel like it was probably around this time of year. Yeah. Like spring. And and the preacher had this devotional about Pharisees and he's teaching and he's very teachery in the way he's preaching and he so like I'm picking up everything he's put down because I've been doing this studying.
Jamie:I mean, it felt like I was in a college class, like, having
T.J.:Oh, wow. Okay.
Jamie:Lectures. And at at this point, I've graduated college. I've even graduated with a master's in education because if the teachers out there, that's the only way you can get a raise is to get more degrees. But anyway, like, I knew, like, I loved all of this and how it how it how he was speaking and teaching and and and that was the first time I'd heard anybody say anything to make me even begin to feel like, not like I thought I was going to church with a bunch of Pharisees but that it was possible for people to study scripture and not have some kind of absolute perfect holy authority.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Jamie:And I was it was like 15 pounds came off of me with this sermon about the Pharisees on a Wednesday night like.
T.J.:Real all at once. Not gradual.
Jamie:No, all at once. So, I'm like weeping tears of joy. It is Anna, the preacher comes to talk to me and he's like, would you, do you want to talk? You know, why don't you come by my office later? And like, he's noticed my complete overreaction to what was probably supposed to be like a twenty minute Bible study and and anyway, I sat down with him, and I tell him the little bits of my story.
Jamie:And he was like, I think you're wrestling with a call. And I was like, what? It was like, my blew my mind. And and so, he put me in touch with some people at seminary and like, he's like, in this been there, done that. I've got the T shirt way.
Jamie:He was trying he was telling me, and it was so foreign to me. This is
T.J.:a this is your first encounter with Mhmm. The anyone mentioning a call to ministry. Alright.
Jamie:Well, for one, yes, we're in the mid two thousands but like, I never heard of a woman preacher. I did truly, there was a very big part of me that believed what that church was telling me about what women were supposed to do at church because that was all I'd ever saw women do at church. So, I knew I wasn't, I knew I didn't fit the the molds for what what I was supposed to be or what I believed I was supposed to be but yeah. So, he did and I you know, met committees and told talked to people and did the things you do and started seminary that fall.
T.J.:Alright. So you didn't return to the church that said time out to celebrating the lord's supper.
Jamie:The only time I returned is I put the literature I had that belonged to them in their mailbox. But I never talked to them never went back.
T.J.:You called them pivot moments.
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:Yeah. You pivoted.
Jamie:That one was a pivot.
T.J.:So then you become a seminary student and full time teaching and two teenage kids at this time.
Jamie:Yes.
T.J.:Amazing. So walk me through walk me through all that stuff and a commute, I guess.
Jamie:Yes. I was commuting after school. I would leave school when I got out of school at 03:00, make a beeline to Memphis to attend seminary. At this point, my that core group of friends that I'm beginning to actually believe are friends are very helpful. A lot of them are in seminary also.
Jamie:They what the the husband and wife, they I stayed at their house a lot when I had, like, super late nights and would drive from Memphis back to work the next day. That went on for a while. I would stack up summer courses or j terms when I could.
T.J.:And you were telling me off, Mike, when we were talking the other day about doing this podcast that because of everything that you were balancing, you you took more time than maybe another well, I don't even know if we can say that you took more time. But balancing life, work, children
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:You weren't done in three years.
Jamie:No. I started in fall of o nine, and I didn't finish classes until 2017. So. It was a very slow.
T.J.:I
Jamie:stayed on like the that church I just drove into the parking lot of ended up staying at that church for several years attending loved that church dearly. They I that was the first time that I encountered just regular people of faith who just regular people of faith, I guess. Like, they I mean, there is a lady there who every week would have her a list, and she would want me to tell her things she could specifically pray for for me. And and the way she would convey that, like, knew she was gonna actually like, it wasn't like that, oh, I'm gonna pray for you. No.
Jamie:Right. She was sitting somewhere in her quiet corner closet praying fervently for whatever I put on, you know, would tell her.
T.J.:Just you. Just you. As far as you know.
Jamie:Well, no. No. I think she did it with every I think she was like that way. Just Okay. That was her role.
Jamie:But I mean, she wasn't the minister's wife or any it wasn't her job. Yeah. It was just her. There were, like, I encountered the the like little old retired man who was just so nice. I couldn't comprehend it.
Jamie:Like, you know, he was just like, hey, I made some extra food for you and your family. Why don't you come by the house and get it? And, you know, it's like steak and baked chicken and 15 side. It looks like Thanksgiving.
T.J.:Wow.
Jamie:And, you know, I'm like, what? What? You know, like, just really just such a wonderful community of faith that at this little church. And I ended up being their youth pastor for a while and one of my core group friends was the preacher there for a while. It felt like a fever dream of just good feeling things, you know.
Jamie:But it still was not as I got close to finishing seminary and started being encouraged to fill the pulpit more, like that preacher left and went to a different place. You know? Preachers do that. That's a thing. They weren't using me to fill their pulpit.
Jamie:And when they did, I'd start to notice that maybe some people wouldn't stay or would listen to all the first stuff and then leave when I got up there. Not everybody. Now, some of them were fantastic but there was some little tiny remnants of that Well, you're not good enough. You don't need to be doing this. Look at these people.
Jamie:Like, you know, I don't know if you have, like, that negative self talk you get, but, you know, you don't notice the 75 people that stay and listen. You get fixated on the two that got up and walked out. I'm like and you're like, why am I so terrible?
T.J.:So you felt a vibe maybe without words of explanation.
Jamie:Right.
T.J.:Yeah.
Jamie:And I never questioned it. The preacher that the one that helped me discern my call, he wasn't there anymore. I mean, they they kinda went through preachers a bit Mhmm. At that church. And I So then that became another pivot point to when the the church I'm at now.
Jamie:They had whoever their preacher was, doesn't matter. I can't remember his name exactly either. But he messaged me on Facebook. And he was like I need somebody to fill in for me. You're in seminary.
Jamie:Can you do this? And it gives me this address. And I get the address and it is like in the middle of nowhere Trimble, Tennessee. So, it's like a town that's in the middle of nowhere in a area that's the middle middle of nowhere and I'm following the GPS to go to this place and I'm like, I'm never going to find this place. Like, this, I don't know.
Jamie:I I have no idea where I'm going. And I'm driving down roads that are barely wide enough for my car. And cornfields as high as my car on both sides. And I'm I like if you if you ever wander to where my church is, it is. It's in the middle of a bunch of fields and nobody is going to accidentally drive by this place.
Jamie:But I massage like just this oasis of like, oh, there's a cemetery and a church and a lance there. So, I pull in and I go to this church and I fill in for him and it's just a little country church like it felt like all the good, warm, fuzzy feelings that I had from the church I grew up in which was also in the middle of nowhere in a town that's in the middle of nowhere. Like, it's a very rural part of the world where I live here in Northwest Tennessee. So, like, like, the people were nice, but not too nice, like real nice. But I just loved how it felt.
Jamie:Yeah. In fact, I went back. You can, so now, we're to the era of where you can, everything was on Facebook. So, you can go back and read and I I wrote. I filled in at this church.
Jamie:I could really see myself at some play at a place like this sometime And that was the first and only time. Even though I'm almost finished with seminary at this point. I still did not see myself as being a pastor.
T.J.:What were you thinking? Why were you going through seminary?
Jamie:There was a part of me that thought I would go on and get a doctorate and maybe teach because I they love learning and teaching and learning are kind of the same thing to me. There was still a part of me that thought, well, I can know, I can learn this stuff and I can communicate with people and I can I've already picked up on the fact that people like to talk to me and whatever and so then, I was like, well, then, I can be at the restaurants and the wherever and when those things come up, then, I can pull that preacher card out of my back pocket and be like, well, I I can speak with authority and it'll be like not to prove something wrong or win a fight but to just be like, no, I do know what I'm talking about kind of thing and that's what I thought, really, is what it what it would be. A few months later, they, the church called me again to fill in and they had a the elders at the time who one of them he's he he died during COVID but he was what will be in history, one of my favorite humans that I've ever met in my life.
Jamie:He came up to me after that second sermon. And he was like, so, The church you go to, they're looking for a preacher, right? And I said, yeah. He said, why aren't they using you? And I went I don't think they're ready for a woman preacher as really what it boils down to.
Jamie:And that's okay. Like no big deal. That's just what it is. And he said well I think we are. And I'm like, what?
Jamie:Like, did I just hear you right? And he's like, I want you to come back and talk with the session. And so then, I have like this freak out moment because I've been asked to preach a church and I've never entertained ever even the tiniest bit of being a preacher. Really still had a part of me that believed I didn't I couldn't be. Like, if I'm being honest with you, I still get up every Sunday morning and still think, like, how am I doing this?
Jamie:Like, how is this me? And, like, this is a real thing. But I started doing my homework on this church. And this church goes back to like its founding in the eighteen fifties. Eighteen fifties.
Jamie:And they except for one person. Every two years, they got a new preacher. Wow. So I'm like, something's wrong with this church.
T.J.:That's where your mind went.
Jamie:I mean, I meant the numbers don't lie. Like so so I call the past few preachers. Mhmm. And they really They're not unkind about the church but they all, the universal thread of it is that it was a difficult church. That just difficult.
Jamie:Nice people, good people, but difficult people. And it's completely okay for my church to hear this. I've told them this story a thousand times and they know it too. But so anyway, I I I do have a core group at this point. So, I go back to my friends in Memphis and I'm like, I don't know.
Jamie:I'm going to talk to this session, I guess, because I believe you should all, it never hurts to interview, you know, like, the worst I can do is say no, but I was like, nobody and I mean, these are seasoned ministers that are like nope. Couldn't get out of there quick enough. Now I'm making that part up. They didn't say. But it's like hyperbole for the storytelling.
T.J.:Oh yeah you're adding.
Jamie:But but but you know and and my friend says to me, he said, well, you know, maybe it's not the church. Maybe they just never found the right pastor. And I'm like, Okay, but you know it's still probably not me, right? Like, I'm sorry. There's my, I'm saying this.
Jamie:But he did say that to me and it did stick probably because it was the right thing to say. Then, I called like some of those older people like the lady that prayed for me from the other church and I'm like, I need you to pray hard for me, miss Glenda. This has gotta happen now. Like, I don't wanna put a timeline on it, but whatever you gotta do. And, like, I call the, you know, like, the mister Charles.
Jamie:What do I need to do? Like So you're mister Charles. Like, I'm calling people.
T.J.:And I'm at shifted from the casual, like, hey, how does the interview hurt to a place where you wanted this to work out?
Jamie:I just wanted to know. Like, I I wanted assurance. Yeah. And so then I go and I meet with the elders, and they talk their spiel about what they want.
T.J.:And Mhmm.
Jamie:It's a small church, and they can't, know, they can't afford a full time minister. So, like, the fact that I teach school is good, you know, because they want somebody that to not just be a training ground for a minister to cut their teeth and then go somewhere but but they they're looking for something and and they and they're like, do you have any questions for us? And I mean, I've got nothing to lose. I didn't even seek this job, right? So, I'm like, why does nobody stay at your church more than two years?
Jamie:And the looks on their faces as soon as I said that. And they all kind of look at each other. And I was like God what is the that's they feel like what is this thing that's at this church? And then they start laughing like hysterically.
T.J.:Okay.
Jamie:And they're like, no one's ever asked us that. And I'm like, I don't know why not. It go back all the way to literally the mid eighteen hundreds. And nobody has been able to be with y'all for longer than two years. Like, like one person in all that time and he made it seven.
Jamie:So, you know, it it opened up some dialogue like where they were like, some people find us difficult and I'm like, yeah, I've heard. They say that like and it it was the it it was the beginning of what for me. It was like, alright. Challenge accepted.
T.J.:You got your carrot.
Jamie:I did. And and not even the carrot I thought I was working toward. But but they it it's just such a wonderful group of people and there are I I don't even know how to describe. Like they, what I love about that church is everybody there and I can say that wholeheartedly, is what you see is what you get.
T.J.:Now that's pretty rare.
Jamie:That is so rare. And and it's a small church. So, there there's not, it's not big enough for factions or any of the other things that happen just naturally when you have groups of people together. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with factions. I mean, that's just a normal thing.
Jamie:If you go to a family reunion, you're gonna gather with your corner of the cousins that you know because that's
T.J.:just Right.
Jamie:That's just what people do. That's humanity. But but they are. They they are they're really very open minded and very They're all so intelligent. Even if it's not like a classical like seven letters behind their name degree and but they they're thoughtful and they it turned out or like just exactly the kind of people I needed to be around.
Jamie:Like,
T.J.:for me. You've been there for a while now, right?
Jamie:It will be ten years in May.
T.J.:Wow.
Jamie:So, also, lasted longer than all them two year people. So I didn't get a pen. But
T.J.:I I'm sure if somebody at the church hears that, maybe they can order you one. And it can be a ten year gift.
Jamie:Well, now they for sure will if they hear it. I know. I know.
T.J.:Jamie, you've you've faced quite a few challenges in your life. And, you know, one of the challenges that you've been facing the past almost ten years now is is doing ministry and and sharing the faith, you know, turn of the century, turn of the decade, during during and post pandemic, and being bi vocational, and then having your children grown and doing their own thing. You know, what advice do you have for others who may feel a call to ministry, or just don't know even much about this Christian life, this Christian thing, you know, it's just it's kinda there.
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:But it's just a cursory knowledge. I know this is a long question, but I mean, how would you what encouragement how would you speak to those folks? And what would you share with them to help, I don't know, encourage them along the way?
Jamie:I would say and this is the benefit of my hindsight.
T.J.:Right.
Jamie:That that god is speaking to them always, I think, really and truly through people, through places, through things. And if they're curious, if they're beginning to have some sense, I would say, hey, that's, you know, god's probably trying to talk to you. Maybe, figure out how to listen. Which was for me still one of the biggest challenges is figuring out how to listen to God. Because I can tell you all the ways to not listen.
T.J.:Because you had a you had a total stranger on a Wednesday night telling you that you must be called or the that you might be called.
Jamie:God always uses because I'm a I'm a stubborn child. Total strangers. I mean, I, there are so many instances where complete strangers validate something I've been wrestling with and my prayer life is I I'm maybe the worst or best at praying because my brain is so my brain. When I pray, it's a list and I'm like, okay, god. You know how my brain works.
Jamie:So, I'm just going to go through this stuff I've been thinking and writing down just to make sure I hit everything and I would just do it daily like forever until maybe it's check and done finally. And then sometimes you uncheck it because you can do that with your smartphones now. But it I would. I would encourage them to listen and be open to listening and to pray. And I always try to Adorable.
Jamie:I would tell them I would tell them to keep praying and to do it until you get an answer. Until you feel some sort of relief or resolution or direction sense. I think that discipline's important. And then also the hard one for me to learn would be talk to people. I wish people talked more about their faith and their question, and I wish people felt comfortable with the struggle kind of questions they have about faith.
T.J.:Yeah.
Jamie:Calling. Because I think back to that year when I was just so sad and and whatever, like, and just afraid to speak what I was feeling because I thought it was wrong. Like, how crazy was that? Like
T.J.:Look. I look. I I understand. I mean, I I advocate. I don't no.
T.J.:I don't understand, but I advocate conversation. And that's one of the reasons why I like doing this is that maybe people can connect and feel less isolated, a little less lonely,
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:And feel encouraged enough to be able to approach another person or pray for the first time or read the scriptures for the first time or start the conversation instead of waiting for the conversation to come to them. Ask questions about the faith.
Jamie:Yeah.
T.J.:You know, you you've had a mixed a healthy mix of church experiences in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and and outside the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. There's people that listen to Cumberland Road, never been to a Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:Or don't have one that's even remotely close to their home. What would you, how would you describe the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and all of its complexities to somebody who may never enter into one or even meet somebody who leads or worships in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Jamie:I I love the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And a lot of it, I don't even know why. I mean, it, again, like you said, this familiarity of the sign when I went to the one, it it you know, I was born there. It was the one down the street when I where my parents lived when they got married but when I when I was in seminary and I think I had to reflect on being CP once. I I said just that, you know, I grew up at church but the the beliefs of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Jamie:That's the core values that are in the confession of faith. Which I did study when I was doing all my side Bible study things too. I they're good. I and I think they're really good and they instilled in me a desire not just to be at church but actually in church. My I just happened to be a minister.
Jamie:My faith journey started in just wanting desperately to be a part of something, not just like a spectator. And I think Cumberland churches are good at that kind of empowerment of the people. I I don't I haven't been to a Cumberland church where you just show up for the show and go home. Not saying there's anything wrong with churches that do that. Some as a minister now where you're so much a part of it, sometimes that would be refreshing to just go, sit in the back, watch, listen, get up, and go home.
T.J.:Right.
Jamie:I don't want a job. I don't want
T.J.:to Limit it. On a committee. Yeah. No interaction. Yeah.
Jamie:Yes. But but I I believe and it's affirmed more and more. I've lived a lot of my life trying to be an island. And in reality, I think that we are created for community. I I I there are too many instances that cannot be mere coincidence where just the things, the road I've traveled has somehow brought me to a place with a person who I could benefit from their experiences and they can benefit from mine and wait, we both part ways better having met somewhere on that journey and I think the Cumberland Church is good at that too.
Jamie:Even even now where it feels like some of the roads, some of the Cumberlands are on are way vastly different. I think we're better together. And I think Again, I understand. I understand the differences and even I'm glad there's room for both In in those differences. And that's part of the great thing.
Jamie:That's part of how I think it should be. That we can be different. And still part of the same community. Like how boring would it be if we were all the same anyway? Right?
T.J.:Right.
Jamie:So I don't I don't love I don't love the politics and I don't love soap boxes I don't love ever being in a situation where something has to be absolutes I can say, for me, god is absolute and no matter how long I study and how smart I think I am, I'm I don't get to wear the hat to make that call for god as to what is or is not. So, personally, I tend to bury my head in the sand a little when I came in confronted with that with that not to stay ignorant. I'm not ignorant on things but I just we got more important things to do. Like have good church. And I don't I don't need the distraction of anything else.
Jamie:So if somebody was listening and wanted, I would say, keep going to church and if someday, the church you're going to doesn't feel like the right church anymore, that's okay. Go to a different church And if that woman feels okay for a time and then doesn't feel right, then go to a different church. Like, they're everywhere. Literally.
T.J.:Especially in the Southern part of The United States.
Jamie:Yes. Yes. And gosh, now, you know, we can find them online, and we can do although I don't love online, I I don't think you can really achieve community fully.
T.J.:As we talk online?
Jamie:Yeah. Well, I mean, we might fit some better, and I'm even my therapist online. Like, I but there's just something about being in a room with a group of people and just being. Like, no matter what's said or how you pray or what songs you sing or what you eat after or how you do communion or what you're wearing or what the weather it just being can be a holy thing.
T.J.:Sitting in in comfortable settings and not leaving when it's uncomfortable.
Jamie:Mhmm.
T.J.:Yeah. Being in the room with another person or persons make both bearable.
Jamie:Mhmm. It does.
T.J.:Yeah. Well, I don't wanna miss the opportunity for you to, if you want to, talk about a business venture.
Jamie:Okay.
T.J.:Recently, I don't remember what issue, but you were interviewed in the Cumberland Presbyterian magazine. Mhmm. Sorry. I don't remember what issue, but a recent issue.
Jamie:I don't remember either. Yeah. That's okay.
T.J.:So this is your opportunity to make a plug for?
Jamie:Oh, yeah. The record shop. Yeah.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie:So I was interviewed. I don't know how exactly the CP world even found out about it, but it is a small town and a pretty connected community. So, I guess but yeah, bought a record shop with the kids couple years ago. Or a year and a half ago and it's in downtown, Union City where we sell old and new stuff and it's a lot of fun and more importantly than that, it is it's just a fun place for people to come and talk and be and I said it in the interview and I'll say it again. People, music has a nostalgia to it.
Jamie:Like you can't not remember. You can't, I couldn't repeat to you the words I said five minutes ago in this interview but you can ask me this to sing the lyrics to some Madonna song from 1984 and I can rattle them off perfect You know, like, music does that and people it's in a historic building and historic downtown and people come in to remember things and talk about where they were when they heard this or what they were doing when this other song played and it's it's a good place for people to swap their stories and to be heard and to just listen to good music which is also a fun thing and it I don't know where it's going. I don't really have a plan. What?
T.J.:No plan.
Jamie:Get the lights on. Yeah.
T.J.:Well, so if you happen to be in the Union City, Tennessee area, head downtown and look for the record shop.
Jamie:Yes.
T.J.:And Jamie Adams may may be in there.
Jamie:Strong possibility. If not, I'm probably around the corner. So
T.J.:Jamie, thank you for giving me a big part of your evening so that we could get together and have this conversation. I appreciate it.
Jamie:Oh, no problem.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road. Following my conversation with Jamie Adams, I was able to get a free subscriber link to the December 2024 issue of the Cumberland Presbyterian Magazine. In this issue, there is a feature article on the record shop, the business that Jamie Adams operates. Thanks to the editor, Matt Gore, for helping making this happen. In closing, I wanna read to you a poem by Gene McCarthy entitled The Pivot. Set it down. It doesn't deserve you. Your arms are aching, cramped, and sore. You're so accustomed to this burden, believing less will hurt you more. Your true purpose is long forgotten, enmeshed, unwilling to a bitter call, and fearing death or certain ruin, you've reached the point of stand or fall. This is your day. This is your moment. This is your life. This is your heart. Take back your freedom. Reclaim your strength. It's time to quit. It's time to start. Thanks for listening.
