Jamie Berkley - Meeting People Where They Are
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. This is The Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. I always enjoy sharing time with a guest that teaches me more about a field and expertise that I know little about. Finding common ground is how trust and relationships are built, and today's guest guides me in that direction. Jamie Berkley is an assistant public defender of the 28th Judicial District in Tennessee. She talks about meeting people where they are with her clients and how that opens the door for conversation about family, about life, and about faith. Her faith is also lived out in her home church the Newburn Cumberland Presbyterian in West Tennessee. As an elder, the session clerk, past presbytery moderator, past president of the women's convention, Jamie shares experiences of what service can look like when one is open to the possibility of giving time and your gifts. I hope you enjoy Jamie's faith journey, her humor, and insight as much as I did in this conversation on the Cumberland Road with Jamie Berkeley.
T.J.:Jamie, thank you for joining me.
Jamie:Well, it's nice to be here.
T.J.:Well, tell me what it means to be an attorney and what that looks like.
Jamie:So I feel like much like being a Cumberland Presbyterian. I'm of a small set of attorneys. I am a public defender, so I'm assistant I'm an assistant public defender in the 28th judicial district. That is rural counties in West Tennessee. So we serve Crockett, Gibson, and Haywood, except I don't ever go to Haywood.
Jamie:So I am in Crockett and Gibson quite a bit. As a public defender, you're appointed to represent people who can't afford a lawyer. So a lot of my clients are in jail. Certainly, a lot of my clients obviously have economic need. You have to qualify, based on your income, for me to represent you.
Jamie:And I could represent you for anything from a public intoxication to a 1st degree murder. So anything in between, it's always interesting. This is probably not the appropriate, adjective, but it's always fun. You know, there's always it's always maybe maybe not fun, maybe exciting. So it's always exciting.
T.J.:Well, you have the opportunity to meet a lot of people in some of the low moments of their life. I can see that as a ministry in and of itself because the person who has been arrested is in need of assistance. And it's nice to know that assistance is out there. Is this an elected position? I'm really showing my lack of knowledge.
Jamie:So my boss is elected, and, I'm picked by my boss. So, she is elected. And I would say that, I am lucky that I get paid for, what does become a little bit of a ministry for me. I think, you know, we talked about how Cumberland Presbyterian aren't often, you know, the ones on the the corner, you know, proclaiming their fate. And so I think a lot of times when I'm in jail when I'm at the jail talking to my clients, I'm not, you know, proclaiming my faith, but I hope that they feel that when I'm there.
Jamie:And I would say I certainly pray, that God use me. And so I hope that that God is using me and that that shows while I'm there talking to to my clients and the things that, you know, I'm trying to do for them and with them and, you know, protect their rights and, stand by them for some really hard moments. You know? Sometimes that's all all you can do.
T.J.:We were talking before we started recording about what that representation looks like right now because of COVID and, you were telling me that the the physical representation that you're actually using technology, I thought that was really neat. You were using Zoom and phone calls and and things like that to touch base with your client and that sort of thing. And I thought, well, man, that's really interesting because the alternative would be is, let's say, you're arrested for public intoxication and the courts are actually closed. You could be in jail for weeks months at a time if the courthouse was actually shut down for for a mistake.
Jamie:Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean and that's honestly a minor mistake. I mean, public intoxion ain't a public intoxication ain't nothing. You
T.J.:know? Right.
Jamie:Like, that would be horrible to sit there for
T.J.:For weeks for weeks at a time without representation, without the opportunity to move beyond or serve your time or whatever.
Jamie:I will certainly say that, and and that's been a moving thing as far as how much contact, you know, we've had. You know, at first, you know, in March, it just shut down, and there was no contact with my clients. Now, you know, they were appearing on video. We were getting some limited phone calls. Then I was able to go, you know, into the jail, but it was still not a face to face meeting.
Jamie:We were meeting, just like you see on every crumb show where there's a glass between you and you're talking on the the phone that, you know, in some cases doesn't work well or and mostly they do, but, you know, there's always there's always fun issues. So And then it shifted to, you know, there were so many people allowed in the courtroom, so you could then have some contact, but there's mask and distance and, you know, everybody's a little afraid of everybody. And again, my clients, they're certainly people just like me and you, but they're also people who are you know, dealing with active addiction, or we don't really think about this in rural areas, but homelessness, or extreme poverty. And so they have so much bigger things to think about than a pandemic, honestly. I mean, it it does impact their lives, but, you know, they're dealing so much with, you know, these day to day needs that, I mean, that I certainly take for granted.
Jamie:I think a lot of us do. So you you have to step back and think about, you know, where your clients are coming from. And sometimes, you know, in the time in in the during a pandemic, it's not a, a great thought, but, still, that's my job. You know, that's what I'm there for. So we we kinda shifted to some limited, you know, interaction.
Jamie:And then we had almost, almost gotten back to normal. Like, I had one face to face meeting at the jail. I do have my clients coming back in for appointments now, and I definitely thrive on the face to face. Like, I wanna sit down with you. I wanna have a conversation with you.
Jamie:I don't do well over the phone because you and I talked about this, that I tend to treat phone calls and Zoom meetings and things like that all very, you know, transactional. Like, okay. So here's my questions. Let's do this. Let's get through this.
Jamie:This is a meeting. Whereas if I'm sitting with you, talking with you, we have a conversation and, you know, we talk about things that have nothing to do with your case or why we're here, this meeting, and that is so much more beneficial, for me. And, you know, we were talking about, with with this podcast, how, you know, this humanizes people. So that that's kind of my job in being an attorney for somebody charged with criminal offense. Like, I I need to humanize them.
Jamie:This is not just a charge. This is not just a case. You know, this is a person with a whole, like, a whole different experience maybe than you and I have. And, you know, maybe there's, you know, things that if you knew, you would look at that person much differently and look past the charge to the person. I think that's that's my job.
Jamie:You know?
T.J.:Yeah. How do you do that? How do you represent someone that has maybe a different ethic or moral compass or lacks the similar ethics or moral compass that you have? How do you connect with another person who's who is cut from a different cloth maybe than you?
Jamie:I think we're all just people. And I don't try to concentrate on what's different. You I think that the initial connection for me is finding our common ground. And and so let's step back for a minute. Let's be clear.
Jamie:Not all my clients like me on the first meeting. Like, I'm not they didn't pick me. I'm a free lawyer. Some of them doubt I'm a lawyer. I mean, you know, there's a lot.
Jamie:They don't trust me. You know, I work for the state. So, you know, we're not coming in that, you know, that that they're excited to see me or, you know, they're brimming with love. I mean, no. And also being clear, there's some clients that I don't necessarily like on the first meeting.
Jamie:So we certainly have to get past our reservations. Sometimes it's both of us, sometimes it's one of us. So if it's going to be a prolonged, relationship, it is important to me to connect a little bit. And sometimes you just do that. Like, you talk about their kids because they're worried about their children.
Jamie:So let's let's talk about that a little bit. Not necessarily, like, what you're that you're worried about them, but let's just talk about your kids. How old are they? Oh, do you have boys or girls? Just tell me a little bit about that.
Jamie:Or your pets or, you know, whatever whatever you have going on. And I will say that it's more often than not that I do like my clients. Some of them still don't like me, but, I do like them. You know? And when when we establish that human connection, it makes a huge difference when I'm going to the DA to negotiate their case.
Jamie:So the prosecutor, the DA, to negotiate their case when I'm saying, okay, but did you know this about this guy? Like, did you know he was this? Did you know I mean, he's got a great work history or, you know, he's got I don't know. You you just find the thing that makes them human and you tell their story. And their story is not, well, he got drunk one night and got arrested.
Jamie:Their story starts way before that, and there's and that that's just a little piece of it. And even if it's something worse, you know, that's still not their whole story.
T.J.:That's interesting. That was one of the reasons why I reached out to you is because I was curious of how how do we take a relationship and build a relationship where you can pull my eyes, the D. A. Eyes, whoever it is, away, not necessarily away from the charges, but to add more to the charge or charges around and make that individual a human being. And, again, not to diminish, you know, a crime or potential crime that occurred, but making this person more than just letters on a piece of paper.
Jamie:Right. Right. And I think that's that's I think that that's just what being a good Christian is and being a good attorney. I think that that is all looking past whatever you see on the outside or whatever, you know, has been provided to you about this person and getting a little past that and saying, okay. But who is this person?
Jamie:You know, we talked about that a lot and and our our themes one of the themes that comes back to me, general assembly and women's ministry themes, is meeting people where they are. That theme would not resonate with me as much when it was our theme as it has continued to resonate with me, you know, as as the years have gone by and it's been walk in love and go and, all those great themes that have also definitely resonated with me, but I keep coming back to meeting people where they are. You know, we can't dictate where people, you know, they should be here or they should think this or, why is not every why is everybody not just like me? I'm sure they're all relieved that they're not. But just okay.
Jamie:That's where that person is. And for my clients, you know, sometimes it's those basic needs, maybe I can help with a little bit if we can, you know, if if you're an active addiction. So do you want help? Let me see what I can do, which is that's meeting them where they are still because they're there, but you have access to resources, that they're asking for. So I think that's just being a good person, and maybe letting God work through me a little bit.
Jamie:Hopefully.
T.J.:Absolutely. Well, let's shift our conversation a little bit. We've talked about your relationships that you have professionally. Let's talk about the relationship that you have with God. And I ask this question of most, if not every guest, this relationship with God, can you recall a meaningful experience that you've had with God?
T.J.:And it can be something very recent or it could be something from the past.
Jamie:So you're trying to get away from my professional life and, I'm gonna bring us right back to it.
T.J.:No. We we will weave in, in and out, in and out. But, you know, for me, you know, I don't know what it takes to be an attorney. It's always nice to kinda set that. This is this is this is part of your your living and your schooling, and it's really part of your ministry as well.
T.J.:But I also want us to dive a little bit deeper into into to Jamie and into your relationship with God.
Jamie:So I am not, and I've heard this on your podcast before. Like, other people say, oh, I am your stereotypical I went to church camp, and there, I found God. Or, I'm not your stereotypical. You know, I didn't go to church camp, but this is where it happened for me. So I would definitely say that I'm lucky.
Jamie:Church has always been a part of my life, And so there's not been, any there was not a a thirst time where I went, oh my gosh. This is where I'm supposed to be. It's just I've always been there. Now I guess as much where people talk about feeling very called was, again, not church camp for me because while I've been in church my entire life, I I didn't go to camp. I didn't have kind of that traditional church youth upbringing because we didn't have much youth in my church.
Jamie:For a while, it was me, and then, Bart and Molly Williams came to our church and luckily had a lot of kids. So it's me and the Williams kids. And Grace is 3 years younger than me, which is not a big deal now, but when you're, you know, 6 and 3, it is. So so not a huge youth program. I I did not go to camp.
Jamie:So I've, again, lucky though. I've just always been in church. It's always been there. God's always been a part of my life. The church has always been a part of my life.
Jamie:But if I had to pinpoint where I feel compelled by God to do something, is with a bond motion. So in court, and it used to be that you were in court and all the people from the jail were brought over from court. And so they would, be sitting in chairs beside my table. And I would get appointed to, let's say, a good 90% of them, which some basis a little overwhelming. And so they all went out of jail.
Jamie:Of course. I mean, I would want out of jail. So they all went out of jail, and, you know, what can we do? Can we make a deal? Can you give me a bond reduction?
Jamie:You know, can I go to can I go to rehab? What can I do to get out of jail? And so, occasionally, there's the client that just speaks to me. Like, I have to do something right now, and that would be my call. And I would definitely say that, I don't think that the that there's any, like, hallelujahs or, you know, some divine light that comes over me.
Jamie:I wish there was, but it certainly give me a much stronger argument sometimes. But certainly, I think it comes through with my argument, to the court about how it is imperative that they let my brand new client that I met 3 minutes ago, that I feel very drawn to making this very strong argument for them to get out of jail today. It comes across. And I will say that usually that comes when I have a client that should not be in jail. You know, a intellectual disability, is my most common.
Jamie:Sometimes really young clients that you can tell they don't have a lot of support, but being in jail would be much worse for them than going home to what support they have. So sometimes God just says, take care of that one. And I say, okay. I'm gonna do my best.
T.J.:So these meaningful experience occur on a pretty regular basis.
Jamie:Somewhat. Yes.
T.J.:I didn't Jamie, I didn't realize how active you are in the local church and in the presbytery and in the denomination.
Jamie:I didn't either until last night when I was doing the list.
T.J.:I mean, you you're an you're an elder at the Newburn Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and you've served as presbytery moderator, presbytery board of trustees, Cumberland Presbyterian Women's Ministry president, in the regional, and then president for the denomination as well?
Jamie:Yes. I jokingly say that I was president of the world at that time.
T.J.:So in these terms of various services and and opportunities to do ministry, what is it about, your relationship with God that kinda motivates you and moves you to serve and and to, yeah, just to serve and and to give give back to the church at large.
Jamie:So I would say that mostly, I've just been asked to serve. I always I've told this before that, you know well, actually, Pam Phillips Bird, approached me about being a a convention officer for CPW, And I'll apologize. I'm old school. I told you I'm an 80 year old lady at heart. I still call it CPW.
Jamie:I never added the m. And I think Pam's initial email said, hey. This might be crazy, but would you consider? So, honestly, that whole list of things, I think really in my mind starts with, hey. This is probably crazy, but and I've just kind of continually said yes.
Jamie:You might edit that out too because
T.J.:Yeah. It sounds like a open solicitation for future places to volunteer and serve in the church.
Jamie:But, definitely, I feel like every one of those things has been, oh, well, this is crazy, but y'all do that. You want me to do okay. If you need me to. I generally just assume that they've asked a lot of other people first and they told them no. And then they came down the list to me and said and I said, well, okay.
Jamie:I can do that.
T.J.:So your decision to serve has been, like, out of sympathy for those who aren't asking. That's for
Jamie:nominating committee. I'm nominating committee. I will tell you that my first, service, I think I was 19, and well, let me go back to Newbern. So, Newbern Church has generally been no. When the Williams kids were there, when I when I was 19, they were all still there.
Jamie:So we had very active youth program of about well, there were 5 of us, the Williams kids and me. And, then probably the next, like, we were separated by about 20 years from the next youngest people in the church, which would be, like, my mom and their mom. And anyway. So there was not a lot of that, I think, where you pull your active church participants, you know, that young adult portion of the church. And, actually, I jokingly say I'm still a I'm still a youth, in my family and in my church.
Jamie:I've never gotten married. I don't have children. I think that that qualifies me for all time as a youth. So when I was 19, Shirley Butler, really decided that we should reactivate our CPW. And I'm sure that there was CPW when I was much younger, but I don't I don't remember that.
Jamie:And my mother was not active in CPW. I don't even know if it was terribly active when when, you know, when she was when I was a kid. I have no idea. I just know I don't remember it. So Shirley Butler says we're gonna reactivate CPW, and I think you should be the president.
Jamie:I was 19. I guess, technically, I was an adult. So we did it. And it was a very enjoyable experience, not not the power, but the outreach, was very, very enjoyable. Although I will say that I have been very lucky, in attending this small church where, you know, there weren't many kids.
Jamie:So I can clearly remember being about 12 and sitting in a, Sunday school class with my mom and, like, 2 people who were probably in their late seventies at the time. And they're, you know, talking about this lesson, and they're also very interested in what I had to say. So I think that I got not the richness of your standard youth church experience, but I got exposed to all these different generations and all this knowledge, and they were willing to, you know, just kind of treat me like another adult. And, I got to hear what they thought, you know, their opinions, and then they would, like, turn to me. What do you think?
Jamie:Well, I'm 12. What what do I think? I don't know. But they were they were very interested to hear that. Also, I will say that I was very lucky in that, usually, it was Molly Williams and I would go off on some church thing, and we would come back with some cockamamie plan.
Jamie:Like, I think we probably need to build a pavilion, or I think we probably need to raise money for an ark, you know, or let's do this or let's do that, and, let's just have a bazaar. RCPW is gonna have a bazaar this month, and we need you all to participate. And everybody would just go, okay. Sure. What do you need us to do?
Jamie:So they would kind of go along with, you know, whatever plan we came up with. So I was I would say that I've been I missed out on some of this the standard church youth experience, but I got a whole different one that was just as good in a very different way.
T.J.:Yeah. You got encouragement from from adults and from, more seasoned Christians, and they put you in leadership roles that may not have been open in other settings.
Jamie:Oh, yeah. And I will tell you, I mean, again, I had no idea how CPW worked. So, I can remember going to retreats, and it was, they probably weren't that old, but, it was me and all these little old ladies, and they would be like, hey. Let us take our picture with you with a real camera because that's how old I am. And so, like, I was a little bit of a celebrity because I was the only young person that was going to things like that for a little while.
Jamie:Now thankfully, that's changed. I no longer have the celebrity of being the youngest person there, And there's a ton of younger people that are coming, to to participate in CPW. So that's been just a bittersweet, you know, development. No longer am I the youngest, but there are a lot of young people there that, that that's just really nice to see. Someday, I'm gonna be, you know, 85, taking my picture with the youngest one there.
Jamie:Wow. I'm looking forward to Good
T.J.:luck finding a real camera with film.
Jamie:I know.
T.J.:Let's talk about, some of the people that have had great influence, great impact on your journey of faith. You've alluded to some already, within the Newburn Church, giving you opportunities to serve and to stretch your faith and and grow it, deepen it. Anybody that you want to to mention that has really helped shape you along the way?
Jamie:Well, I think I first have to say that, I mean, you can't not mention George Butler. If you knew George Butler, he was just this amazing Christian man who literally saw the best in every person, would take anyone in under his wing. He would give you his last dollar. He would give you a ride to anywhere. I mean, he was just when you think of a good Christian, he is the first person that comes to mind.
Jamie:So he was my preacher for 26 years, from I think he started when I was maybe 6, so I don't really have much memory of who was preaching before then. Although I was in the sanctuary, I'm I'm a 100% sure I was. But so my first memories of church involved George and then, you know, for so I mean, into my adulthood. So I I think that, certainly, that's the first person I have to mention. Definitely, you know, in our church, there are all these really, probably newborn power couples, that were older when I knew them.
Jamie:They were, like, in their seventies eighties. There was Jimmy and Mildred Wilson, Dixie and Frank Parnell, Freda and Hamm Parks, that all just were so supportive to me when I was when I was a little kid. And, also, you know, if if you'd gone to church with me and, especially as a child, you would know that my church name is Jamie Kaye. They all called me that. So, Annie Laurie Newsome, who was a powerhouse in our church, she was running things.
Jamie:So I saw a lot of powerful women, a lot of, who were all very, very supportive and loving, you know, to me. As an adult, obviously, Pam Phillips Burt, who says, hey, do this crazy thing with me. I often think she might've regretted that. But, and then that kind of opened up this whole different realm of supportive people in the church. I have kind of my girl gang that formed, you know, with the, the girl CPW, gang, that formed when I was a convention officer, Faith Parra, who I love, love, love.
Jamie:Can't imagine my life without her. Sherry Poteet, who is amazing and supportive. Lisa Oliver, Savannah Lamb, who is young and is going to be, so amazing for our denomination. I just see great things coming with her. Susan Gray, just all these amazing women that I've met who are supportive of me, and I hope, you know, I hope they see how supportive I am to them.
Jamie:Certainly too, being convention officer opened up this whole, you know, because you you actually go and, appear and speak at all these, CBW meetings. And, so it certainly was very eye opening to me that, not everybody does things the same way that, you know, I was accustomed to. And just seeing like all these different ways that people, worship and serve and this amazing community of women who invite you in and are secretly, not secretly, but are silently supportive of of one another, of you, of the denomination, that was that was just a beautiful, amazing experience and then a beautiful, amazing thing.
T.J.:Yeah. I, several years ago, I attended a, regional meeting in Tennessee. I don't want I don't wanna give away too much, but it's not really giving away too much. I just can't remember the name of the region. But so that that's on me and not not them.
T.J.:But what I do remember is being in the regional meeting and thinking, this is a meeting and it's like a party, and we need more parties. There was business, but it was made fun somehow. And, I remember going, man, I wish other meetings could have this kind of tone and flavor where you can get the work done, but have fun while you're doing it. So there's gotta be a way to be able to point to these different regional meetings and going, hey, there's another way to do this, and it's a little more enjoyable, and you might actually look forward to coming to the meeting.
Jamie:Right. Right. I will say that, that has been kind of maybe an unexpected I don't know if you call it talent. I'm sure some people would not. So I am West Tennessee Presbytery, and we and I'm fork a deer region.
Jamie:So we we have a combined retreat every spring, with Helping Hands in Southwest, I think, regions. So we rotate or, ideally, we rotate who plans the retreat, and I probably was president. And there's a theme, and I do love a good theme. But you come up with your theme, and then you kinda plan your retreat around the theme. And 1 year, I did Mardi Gras.
Jamie:So there is a very Christian side to Mardi Gras, which I thought we would focus on, but I feel like some of the attendees were pretty scandalized. And I actually did have some ladies come up at the end, and they were saying, you know, I really I really doubted this, but turns out we had fun. I probably pushed the envelope a little bit. And, I mean, I jokingly said several times to that meeting, like, you don't have to show me your boobs right now. I'm sure some people do not appreciate that about me, but it was fun.
Jamie:It was it it was it was a success. It was a lot of fun.
T.J.:That's hilarious. Well, okay. Let's shift a little bit. And, because I don't know how to get away from what Jamie, where do you see God working in the world today?
Jamie:I think, I mean, obviously, God's just everywhere. You see God in the things that work out. You see God in the things that don't work out like you planned. And you certainly say in retrospect a lot of times, I know it's cliche, you look back and you go, oh, you had a better plan for me. I might should have been a little more open to your plan and not so set on mine.
Jamie:I think
T.J.:That that's hard to do, though.
Jamie:Oh, it's so hard. I'm such a good planner too. It's a blessing and a curse. I think too, where I see God is, you know, people are really just basically good people. Maybe not everybody is coming at a problem from the same perspective.
Jamie:Certainly not with the same resources, certainly not with the same ideas, but when you get right down to it, people help each other. People, for the most part, wanna do the right thing, and they wanna do the good thing. Even if they haven't always done, made the best decisions or, you know, practice been able to practically do good things, they they want to do good things. There's very few people that are, you know, seriously just not nice people. Some people, it takes a little bit to get to, you know, their soft center, but I think we all have those.
Jamie:So I certainly see God in everybody.
T.J.:Just harder and easier depending on finding the presence of God in other people and in their actions.
Jamie:Yes. And God works through everyone. I mean, obviously, do you open yourself up to allow that, or do you do you fight that? So it's easier to say some places. And, some places you have to look a little harder, but, I mean, god's there, and god's always, you know, working through people and for people.
Jamie:And, I mean, I think that that's the strength of of my faith.
T.J.:Well, as somebody who's very active in a local church and has been active, as I've mentioned earlier, in many levels in in the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination, what hopes do you have for this church?
Jamie:Certainly, these are my hopes for me too. You know, I would like for more unity, being less judgmental. I don't think we can ever attain the, you know, no judgment standard. I think there's always, you know, going to be some judgment, but, looking past whatever that the whatever a person looks like on the outside or, you know, whatever their differences are from you looking past that and finding your common ground. And back to just meeting people where they are.
Jamie:I think that's just such an important thing that we have really, really, honestly, for our congregation, big pockets of, I mean, like Sacred Sparks. There's a single parent ministry in Middle Tennessee, The Children's Home. I mean, certainly and and I know I'm forgetting exactly 500 other ministers that are in our our Cumberland Presbyterian denomination that are doing these amazing things where they're going out and meeting people exactly where they are. So more of that, it I think would be the best thing that we can hope for.
T.J.:Well, Jamie, how can we continue to follow you on your faith journey? You have laid some great groundwork on who you are and what you've been up to, what you are up to. So for our listeners, how can we continue to follow you on your faith journey, catch your humor, catch the service to the to to those in need of an attorney, and and, of course, your your work with the church? How can we continue to keep up with you?
Jamie:I'm on Facebook. I don't know that, I'm not sure how much my service comes through on my profile. Really, I just kind of approach that like a life scrapbook of fun stuff I do, and there's there's a lot of fun stuff I do. I guess if you really want to follow me on my faith journey, I mean, come join my girl gang. Be at my retreat, which is not always my retreat, but it can be mine a little bit.
Jamie:Come to the retreat. Come to convention. Convention is so much fun. I mean, you can always come to church in Newbern. There will be a place for you to sit.
Jamie:I can guarantee. You know, connect with me, even if it is through Facebook or Messenger or because certainly, there are the people that, you know, have been to retreats or I've been to their retreats or I've been to their meetings or I've met at convention or somehow just through our denomination that, you know, we've maintained that contact, and, I do love that. So, yeah, just come see me or, talk to me on Facebook, and I'm excited about all that.
T.J.:Jamie, thank you for opening up your life and sharing it with me. I've gotten to know you better. You've helped me understand the life of an attorney and the real connection between service to the community and service to God in the way that you were doing it, and I appreciate that.
Jamie:Well, thank you so much for inviting me again. I felt like this was another this may be crazy moments, but and it's been it's been really enjoyable, and it it actually gave me some time to reflect that, I don't think that we, take enough time to do. So thank you.
T.J.:Oh, well, thank you. And thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with us on our next journey down Cumberland Road.
