Jason Chambers - Being With People & Helping In Crisis
Exploring faith journeys and sharing inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. You are listening to the Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinovsky. Reverend Jason Chambers is my guest. He is the resident chaplain at the University of Arkansas for Medical Services in Little Rock. He brings to the conversation his faith journey, which includes serving congregations in Arkansas and serving as a chaplain in the United States Navy, including tours in Japan and Afghanistan. Jason shares of a turning point in his life following a car accident and how his guiding principle is to be in the presence with people and help them in crisis. You are listening to the Cumberland Road podcast, and here is my conversation with Jason Chambers.
T.J.:Jason Chambers, thank you for being the guest on the podcast. I wanna start by asking you, what is it like to be born in El Dorado, and where is that?
Jason:Well, El Dorado is a boom town in South Arkansas known for the oil industry. Murphy Oil, Lyon Oil Companies. There's a refinery there. And, anyway, the best OBGYNs in South Arkansas, in 1977 when I was born was, in El Dorado. And there just were I guess not very many babies being born in the Camden Hospital at the time, also known as Ouachita County Medical Center, where I used to work.
Jason:But, my mom and dad were both born in that hospital in 1952, I believe, as they tell it. And, anyway, they chose to go to El Dorado for, for having me and my brother and sisters. So, and then I went on later on to do my clinical practicum in seminary in the same hospital I was born in, which was kinda cool.
T.J.:Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. Before we get into your calling and and your seminary life, your background includes, your grandfather was a minister, Cumberland Presbyterian minister. So let's talk about what your childhood was like.
T.J.:Jason, have you known a time in your life, without god being part of the family conversation?
Jason:Not really. Not ever. I'm one of those, I guess, cradle Christians, cradle Cumberland Presbyterians, or whatever. You know, just I've always been part of the church. And, my mother, was an elder in the church, that I grew up in.
Jason:Later on, you know, after she'd left, the church that her dad was pastor of, and, when I was in seminary, my dad became an elder. So both of my parents served as elders in the local church, and, that that's been a big part of of our family journey. We always went to church unless we were just, I mean, deathly ill, and I can only think of a couple of times that we actually, you know, missed church, but it's always been a part of my life.
T.J.:So, church attendance in the Chambers household, there was no option. You were there then.
Jason:You were there. And I'll tell one that if my brother ever listens to this, he'll he'll say, yeah, that he's telling the truth. But, you know, there's a rule in your house. You were ready to go, when we left for church or you're gonna get left at the house. And, anyway, dad, left me at the house one Sunday when I wasn't ready.
Jason:And, when I came home, I had an attitude adjustment as dad used to say, and next Sunday, I was ready to go to church on time. It was a one time learning experience. You didn't need to repeat for sure.
T.J.:That's right. Well, I hadn't heard that in a long time. I I had a few, probably more than a few attitude adjustments growing up. Mhmm. Well, Jason, speaking of growing up, growing up in a Christian household, you know, it's I would think it's pretty easy just to kind of learn about Christ, you know, just through osmosis.
Jason:Mhmm.
T.J.:But with that in mind, can you think in times of of currently and even when you were younger, when you really did have some sort of meaningful experience, a meaningful encounter with god that was your own and and maybe not through your parents or your grandparents?
Jason:Yeah. I think so. I mean, I was trying to think back, to that growing up, going to Sunday school, and, I knew the bible stories and all that. But at about 11 years old, we had a a revival, a meeting at my home church, in Camden. And, Buster Guthrie was our pastor at the time, and he'd gotten, Mark Hester to come and preach the revival.
Jason:And I remember at 11 years old, you know, the first couple of nights of the revival, feeling a stirring in my heart, when we got ready to do the just as I am, you know, however many times until people respond. And and I I I I had a hard grip on the pew, you know, those couple of nights. And by the 3rd night, it was it it just felt like my heart was gonna explode in my chest if I didn't get out of the out of that that place. And I remember walking out onto the aisle and and you had to either commit or, you know, act like you're going to the bathroom and excusing yourself, one or the other. You know, it wasn't just step out there and decide, oh, wait a minute.
Jason:I'm not going out down. I'm going back in the pew, you know, and and so I did. I went down and, asked Christ into my heart, and that became an important commitment, I think, in my life, and it just always kinda guided me from then on into choosing, you know, to go to Bethel, to college, to be in a Christian environment, and, to be around other Christians. It's always been something important, to me.
T.J.:Mhmm. So that white knuckling experience, that's what I call that, where you grab the chair, the pew in in front of you and just, you know, grab it white knuckling. Yeah. Jason, how has that relationship when you were 11, how's that changed? And how have you grown in terms of understanding god and understanding Christ in your life, and which has later led to a calling in in to ministry.
T.J.:But I know you didn't jump from 11 to where you are now.
Jason:Not at all. I I remember, you know, being very involved in church camp as a as a youth and every summer I would go, And, you know, I started getting involved in in music and playing guitar and all that at church camp. And so I think other people began to see a calling on me before I saw it, and, I remember my pastor, at at the church at the time saying, from the pulpit at times, Jace has been called to preach just like his grandpa, and I was like, no. I haven't.
T.J.:Yeah. So what was your response, you know, as a teenager? And and even, you know, even in college, you know, I mean, how did you respond to that?
Jason:Well, I ran from it for a long time. I mean, a long time for a teenager is is, several years is a long time. You know, you talk to people now after being in ministry for 20 plus years, and you hear people running from the ministry for, you know, 20, 30 years before they surrender to preach or, you know, answer that calling. And, I, you know, I did. Even going to Bethel, people thought, well, he's going to be a preacher.
Jason:He's going to Bethel, and I wasn't sure of that when I started as a freshman. I got there and I met you and and, other other preachers that already knew that that was their calling and what they were gonna do, and, I just kinda hang on till I knew that that was what I wanted to do. And I think I was probably a junior before I made that decision, to be a ministerial candidate and, to join the group, you know, and I did. I had a very, significant event during my college years that, I think it was a turning point for me, and I was part of the ministry team. We traveled, around the the just around the country during the summertime.
Jason:There's a couple other people on the team, and we would do revivals, go to church camps, and we went from Tampa, Florida all the way to San Francisco, California, and spots all between there, you know, where churches would have us to come and host us, and, you know, that that being part of the Balladeers for I think, 2 or 3 years too, in the summer or not summer, but the spring break, we would go and and travel to churches around the country. And Yeah. And and let me
T.J.:let me interrupt you here just for a second, just for context. So this ministry team and you're attached to it because, of the music element, because you came to Bethel, with a music scholarship. Right? And so you're there's a group called the Balladeers that went and shared the ministry of music in in Mhmm. In various places.
T.J.:So Sure. Carry on. Just wanna give some context.
Jason:And, you know, they'd come to our church when I was growing up and stayed in our home, and that was my introduction to Bethel was the balladeers coming to the church and, you know, and singing and everything. I didn't think as a kid that I'd ever be part of that, but it was quite a quite an experience, very rewarding and is a blessing to me, I think, to be part of that. And, and I did answer the call to ministry, I think, from being part of that. And, towards the end of that summer of of working for the ministry team before I started back in my senior year at Bethel, I was in a car accident that, I had a state trooper on 530 South, just outside of Little Rock that he told me. He said, I've worked this highway for 15 years, and I've never seen anyone, have an accident here and and walk away to tell the story.
Jason:And, remember the friend of mine that was on the ministry team that, had had taken the church position in El Dorado and, had his youngest son in my truck with me when I had the wreck. And neither one of us really were hurt. I, you know, give God blood the glory for that that, that God's protection was upon me during that time of my life. But, I remember the the doors of the ambulance opening with people standing there with tears in their eyes. And I said to them when the door opened, I said, I think I'm ready to surrender.
Jason:I think I know God is calling me, and this is kind of a, you know, Damascus road experience, and I'm ready to say yes.
T.J.:So what what was it about that, car accident that, to dig a little deeper, that made you say, yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready to say yes.
Jason:I think, you know, looking at Peniel, the the Jacob wrestling with the angel experience, that's what the running was for me for a long time is I didn't wanna do it. I my granddad had struggled through his whole ministry, you know, and I think at 80 something when he he passed away or close to before he passed away, he still had mortgage on his house and all that. And, you know, he would just he would give you the clothes off his back to help someone, and that servant, spirit and heart, was something that I think he taught to all of us in the family, that, that we always gave of ourselves. And sometimes that meant that we, you know, were were giving sacrificially, that we didn't actually have to give, but we felt like God calling upon us to, you know, to help someone else, and and we did that. And so, I think I'd wrestled with it and, you know, finally said, Lord, you know, you're gonna have to bless me, and equip me to do this because I I don't like talking in front of people.
Jason:I was nervous, introvert if you will, and I I remember being at Great Lakes as a staff chaplain at the navy's boot camp, and I was at the USS Trayer, which is the, training ship and went up to do the capping ceremony for a group of recruits who just gone through battle stations. And, and one of the petty officers new to it, he said he said, sir, he said, do you, do you have trouble doing this remembering the prayer and the whole speech? And I said, yeah. I said, I get nervous every time I do it. And, he said, but, sir, he said, you do this for a living.
Jason:I said, yeah. I know. And I got a d at college in public speaking. I stink at it. You know?
Jason:But I still do it. I get up and do it. You know? It wasn't very comforting to me to to not do very well in public speaking and know that God was calling me into, to the ministry. I almost felt like Moses and Aaron saying, you know, I need I I need somebody to go talk for me if I'm gonna do this.
T.J.:Well, for those who are listening who maybe have, white knuckled, a chair or a pew for profession of faith or or even a calling in into various type of ministry or any type of vocation. What advice would you give them, Jason, of of being able to you'd used the word earlier, surrender. How what advice would you give to someone who's looking to surrender that internal struggle, that inner struggle of of letting go of what you know is is right?
Jason:Well, what I what I tell people from serving on a committee on ministry in in my presbytery, for I don't know. I don't about 10 years or so, I think is how long I was on it. But, when I was still at Bethel and I just surrendered to preach, my brother was struggling with the same calling and he said, hey. He said, how do you know when you're called? And I said, I can't explain it.
Jason:I said, you just know. And, my advice would be do whatever you're doing until, you know, you find no happiness in it, and the only thing that makes you happy is the ministry because, it's I don't think it's for everyone. It's not an easy journey for sure. Mhmm. And, I've, you know, had doubts about it sometimes.
Jason:Is this really what I'm supposed to be doing, even though I've done a bunch of things? But, going back and working in other secular fields, I've always come back to the ministry of some sort, and feeling like being with people and helping them in crisis, is is what God's called me to do.
T.J.:Jason, how did you go from seminary to, serving in the military and becoming a chaplain in the navy?
Jason:That goes back to the servant spirit, I think, again. This is what Jason's plan was, not God's plan, but Jason's plan was to watch grandpa struggle for 50 years and then, you know, not ever really retire. And, and I was like, hey, look, When I get to about 70, I'm done. I'm punching out. I'm not doing this anymore, you know, and I wanna be retired where I can do that, enjoy, you know, retirement and all that.
Jason:Mhmm. So my plan was to go into the to the military and, spend about 20 years and retire and then be able to work and serve in a small, church that my grandpa had served in for many years that struggled to, you know, to be able to, employ clergy full time.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Jason:And, anyway, that plan, fell through. It didn't work out the way that I planned, and I left, before I retired. So, so I'm back at it. You know? I'm back at doing ministry, went into the church again after I left for a time, but, I really I love the military experience, getting to travel to other countries, and to be with people of all different, denominational flavors.
Jason:And one of the mottos that they had when I was, in Chapla School was, you know, that we, we provide for our own, we facilitate for others, and we care for all. And the care for all, I think, has been really my, guiding, principle through the ministry is care for everyone, the best that I knew how to do so. I didn't always successfully do that probably, but that has been what I've tried to do is to care for everyone.
T.J.:What does pastoral care look like, in comparison to maybe, a local congregation and then a branch in the military?
Jason:I think there's a big difference between church ministry and institutional ministry. And in the institutional setting, I think as an introvert, I've always found that to be easier because you have a captivated audience. I mean, you know, you've got in boot camp, I was there as staff chaplain in the basic training of the navy for 3 years and, you know, I go and, you know, minister to troops, you know, in their barracks where they're at, doing core values, briefs, and doing chapel briefs, talking about religious freedom to them and just what that looks like, but having an office in their barracks where they live where they can come to me, as as they want to. And, and in the hospital setting with people in a in a hospital room, that can't get out and go to, to church, during their their illness, whatever their hospital stay is is, you know, if it's a day or if it's, you know, weeks, currently working in oncology, people are there for, you know, 40, 50 days or more. Sometimes I've seen them there, for a 100 days or so, and and they just they're there for a long long period of time, and you just go and you just continue to minister to them and and their needs.
Jason:I think isolation is a lot of of, the problem that they deal with, and not having family to come be with them, and that's that's how we minister to them is through supporting them. It's, the presence, and it's not the same way in the church. You know? We talked about it before we jumped on here about knocking on doors, and not everybody wants you to show up at their house and knock on their doors. I know, you know, it's hard to to keep a clean house and ready for the minister to come by just any time, and there were some people I knew were, welcoming of that and wanted you to come by as often as possible.
Jason:And a lot of people would tell me straight up, hey. Don't come by to see me. You know? And I was like, okay. Glad you told me that.
Jason:When I kept office hours at the church, from my model in the institutional setting, it was kind of, hey. If I'm gonna keep office hours at the church, my expectation is that you're gonna come by the church for visitation. If you need to see the pastor, you're coming here. I'm not going to your homes. And, my door was open, and that's just kind of how I did it.
Jason:I don't know that I mean, my last church, people came by all the time. People from the church, people from the community, other pastors would come by and, and all that, and and you just never knew what you were gonna get into. And I found sometimes having to get a sermon ready too is that people would come by and I'm thinking, well, I gotta get this bulletin done by this afternoon. I should have already gotten this done. And, I don't have to worry about a bulletin or getting a sermon together as a chaplain in the hospital, because I'm not preaching anymore.
Jason:And there's a lot of freedom, I think, for me to focus on caring for people that I didn't feel like I had sometimes in the church.
T.J.:Right. Right. So, Jason, you were telling me earlier that, you're back in school. You're back in training. So if you don't mind, just talk for a few minutes, why you're back in school, what kind of training are you seeking, and, what your plans are in terms of ministry and life.
Jason:Sure. Well, this kinda started a couple of years back, with Jack Ryan, who was the chaplain of the VA in Little Rock recruiting me, trying to get me to come over to the VA and be a chaplain there, and I kept putting it off. I was looking for the perfect CPE training experience, in the Memphis VA, the nighttime extended program where it's, you know, you go one night a week and spend some time over there, and then, work in the church for the most time. Mhmm. Well, they didn't have a CPE instructor, and that's clinical pastoral education for those listening that don't know, what CPE is.
Jason:And that's training that's required for hospital chaplaincy, hospice chaplaincy, and, some other things, like our I don't think our federal bureau of chaplains requires it, but it's always good, training to have. I didn't have to have it as a military chaplain, but now looking back on, I wish I had it before I went into military chaplaincy. It would have helped me in some areas, having had that background. But, you go through, case studies looking at visits, what went right, what went wrong, and in a group of peers who, you know, there's it's hard because you you you become vulnerable. You make yourself vulnerable in a way that, you know, you almost can't be anywhere else, maybe with your church ex, people, or just anywhere, and they become just a family really for you.
Jason:Mhmm. As we share some of those heartbreaking experiences, you learn some of your triggers. I've learned one of mine is that, when I go down to the emergency department or I get called on a code blue, to a grieving spouse who just lost her husband, for those of you that don't know, I'm a little bit older than my wife. There's about a 17 year age gap between us. We're both we're both in the ministry.
Jason:She's a Methodist pastor, and, having that having that age gap between us, I just think about sometimes, you know, that, Jason, you're gonna die a long time before she does unless something just tragic happens, and she's gonna be alone. And and I think about that a lot. I worry about her, you know, and and I have to tell myself all the time, you know what? She's gonna be perfectly fine without me. When I go, I think she's probably going to, to say, I'm glad I don't have to put up with him anymore.
Jason:She would probably say no, you know, and I know she'll be heartbroken at that time, when we, leave this or one of us leaves this earth and leaves the other. But, I think about that as trigger for me. And I'm sad for a lot of those grieving wives, when they're just breaking apart right there, not knowing what to do. Some of them, their husbands have always managed their bank accounts and all that, and I'm glad that we've been intentional in our marriage about, both of us knowing how to handle the bills, so that neither one of us is in that that that position where we don't know what to do, when something like that happens tragically. But, but, yeah, that's that's part of the training, and that's part of my triggers and learning what they are.
Jason:And now, you know, I can walk into that situation and not get, enmeshed in it, with, with what's going on, but be able to separate myself from it and care for that person and, provide the care that they need in the moment.
T.J.:You have a really unique experience, Jason. And, you know, you've served in a local church, you've served in a hospital setting, you've served on a military base, and a, ship. And so in terms of faith sharing or evangelism, what is the commonalities between those 3, and and what are the differences?
Jason:Man, I'll you know, one ex one experience I had as a, ship chaplain, and, I was I I was a reserve chaplain on active duty for special work assignment, and it was a 180 day assignment to a destroyer squadron, in the 7th fleet out of Japan. But going over there, right out of the church, and I had no training, no no idea what I was getting into. But I was wearing the blue coveralls, and, I had the gold cross on my collar. And I was on a ship where we didn't have a lay leader to lead any worship services or anything, so it was kind of a spiritually dark place for the Christians on board. And one of the, one of the young junior officers on the ship saw me in the passageway, coming around the ship one day, and she said to me, she said, chaplain, she said, you don't know how good it is to see the cross on your shoulder coming through here.
Jason:I would have experiences, when I was in deployment, in Afghanistan, and one of the officers there, I was walking around looking at the ground, try not to trip over, rocks and other things. And he said, chaplain, he said, you're the last person on this base that needs to have his head down. You know? So that cross on my collar as the chaplain, was a symbol of hope, for a lot of people in, in you know in dark times and difficult times, be it that you're out in the middle of nowhere and the first, experience on a ship and going to sea, you know, standing there looking back at the pier and as the ship got further or further away from it and I couldn't see any land or anything, all I could see was the ocean, I was like, man, I don't know when I'll ever get home again, you know. I I can't just leave, you know.
Jason:I'm stuck here. And makes you think about Jonah and the whale experience or Jonah on that ship, you know, or Paul with, with people on his missionary journeys and what it's like to to be totally, dependent on other people to get you where you need to go. And, in Japan it was like that, Afghanistan was a lot like that, you know, when you would leave. And coming back to the states, being in a car, driving on your own, and having that dependence or independence, for yourself again, was quite, quite an amazing feeling for me. In the church setting, you know, you you know, the thing is, god gives us freedom, freedom to come to church, freedom not to come to church, you know, and when I go and visit people in the hospital, they can say, hey.
Jason:I want you to come back and visit again or hey. I don't I'm good. You know? I don't wanna talk to a chaplain.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Jason:And we've got to be able to accept that, you know, that rejection, if you will, maybe not so much of me as a person, but, just that they are not interested in, you know, a chaplain, at that that moment in their, in their hospital stay. People in the church, you know, may not want, may not, you know I can't beat the doors and make people come to church. I felt like sometimes maybe, you know, sessions wanted me to go out there and and just beat on doors and and and make people go to church, you know, but the the thing is we can't do that. That's a hard thing for us sometimes, I think, as pastors to accept is that, you know, no matter what we do, you know, it may have no bearing on, church attendance and, interest in the church. I can beat my chest, beat the pulpit, cry my heart out, and all that, and it it may have no impact on, you know, on who comes.
Jason:And that's sometimes a hard thing for me to, to get my head around and and just accept, and, and I've tried to just always encourage people, you know, you be the light in the community. Go out there and be God's ambassador. All of us, I think, are called to that, a ministry of of, just a presence in our community and and being like that cross on the collar, people knowing that we're a Christian. And, I think that that's what all of us as as Christians are called to be is is to be ambassadors of Christ, in a dark place in the workplace.
T.J.:Yeah.
Jason:One of our chaplains I work with is doing or has done his PhD on workplace spirituality and what that means, you know. Is it important to people at work or is it not, you know. And and I'm I'm wrestling with this thing of, you know, if if people, you know, if people have a church home and a pastor, you know, why do they need somebody to come visit them in the chat in the hospital sometimes? And the same, you know, if if, people have chaplains in the workplace or at the hospital and, you know, where they're everywhere else other than the church, why did why do we need ministers in the church? Why do we need to go to church?
Jason:I I don't know. I don't have answers for those questions yet, but it's things that I'm wrestling with right now, in the church life, you know, is is where is my place, or where is the place of the professional clergy?
T.J.:That's interesting. You know, I haven't really pondered that. I guess my my mind raced with your question as in, well, why would I want my community to be small? Why wouldn't I want to surround myself with many people who have more wisdom or more life experience, more patience, more curiosity than me to help help me grow and to help me be centered. But but there is that consumerism aspect of and especially here in the United States, probably in the last, what, 50 to 80 years, where a clergy is the paid professional.
T.J.:And how many paid professionals do I need in my life? Do I need 2 do I need 2 plumbers or 1?
Jason:Yeah.
T.J.:Do I need, you know, one person who can repair my roof, or do I need 8? I don't know. Maybe that's based upon the need. That's interesting, though. I guess my gut response would be is the larger my community is, the the better off we all are.
Jason:Mhmm. I had a a great, you know, rewarding experience, in Calico Rock with the ministerial alliance there, and it's probably one of the best I've ever worked with where, you know, we'd meet once a month and come together, and we'd look at, you know, the needs of the community. And we paid for a lot of people that were in need of paying their gas bill, light bills, other things of that nature and being able to help people. And, I enjoyed that experience. You know, when I was a a boot camp chaplain, I had the largest church attendance, in my ministry.
Jason:Being a pastor in the contemporary service, we had 7, 800 people would come to worship and I'd call home, you know, and when I was a pastor at fellowship in, Camden, prior to deployment in my active duty career, I had 8 people there for a long time, and and it was just, you know, for 7 years when I when I preached there, 8 people. Nobody died. I didn't add any to the church and, you know, I I just, you know, I'd preach my heart out and I got to the point where I don't know what to do to to change, you know, church membership, to grow the church and everything. I went off to, you know, the navy, and my aunt Roberta, my mom's sister came in and pastored the church for about 14 years or so, I think, after that. And the church grew to about 50, and, you know, she didn't do anything, you know, like bringing a praise band or, anything like that, but it just they started meeting together and having breakfast between worship and Sunday school, and started inviting people, hey, come eat breakfast with us and come to Sunday school, and people started coming and attending, and, it just began to grow from that.
Jason:But, you know, you hear the thing of of there's no atheist in a foxhole. What I found was small, membership, and I think this is what's probably more applicable to Cumberland Presbyterian than anybody else because we have so many rural churches that are very small in membership is that, you know, I could, I could walk into the sanctuary at great lakes with my guitar slung over my back, walk up to the stage and I'm telling you from my first experience, walk right up there in front of everybody and whip out the guitar and just start playing music and singing in front of, you know, 7, 800 people and not have one bit of nervousness or anxiety about it. And, our Southern Baptist, region chaplain who had been there, been a navy, chaplain for about 32 years, he's like, I can't believe this guy. Look at this. Look what he's doing.
Jason:He just went up there. He don't care. I was like, well, I don't know anybody there. I've got nobody to judge me or anything. And that internal critique, you know, that critical voice that I always have of, boy, you know, they were looking at me funny when I was preaching.
Jason:I wonder what they're thinking. You know, are they gonna not come back to church again? I can't lose, you know, 1 or 2 members when I only have 8. You know, to have those things. It was harder for me to preach in the small church than it was in a big audience just because I judged myself more on delivery and I could see every eyeball in the sanctuary and, you know just looking at those things, but there is more intimacy with people there.
Jason:You know when I did bible study in Afghanistan and we talked about, our fears and I had a senior chief that's like hey man You know, we've got 400 Taliban that's about to overrun our place or not oh, no. We had a base of about 400. He said there's about 40,000 about to overrun us. And I'm thinking I'm gonna die right here. You know, I'm gonna die.
Jason:And, everybody's, you know, talking about it, worried about it, and nothing ever happened. You know, what we feared never happened. That same senior chief had an arm full of grenades sleeping at the wall, you know, thinking that they're gonna come over the wall just any moment. But, you know, we can let our fears like that grip us, and one of the hopeful things I read, that you know, not that I my prayers had any bearing on it, and I've been reminded that by that, by my supervisor in CPE. But, I was reading the bible one day while I was there and thinking about all that, and I I came into 2nd kings, I think it's chapter 19, 32 through 34 where, you know, God says to Hezekiah, you know, I'm gonna protect the city and, there won't be an arrow that will come into the city and harm it.
Jason:You know, nothing like that will happen, and that God would protect the city by his might. And, I began to just pray that, scripture, and I put it as a signature on my emails. I was like, pray this for me. If you're praying, you know, pray this for me that God will protect me while I'm here and protect the guys that are with me. And, you know, people say, well, you know, why do you think your God was stronger than their God?
Jason:And, you know, all those questions, but, I I just you know, that gave me hope knowing that I could trust in that promise that God was with me no matter what happened and that God would, would watch over and defend me. And even if he didn't, you know, my eternal reward was, was in heaven. It wasn't here on this earth, you know, and and, that's what I I hoped in, and, it gave me strength on the darkest of days is trusting God. But, but I think that intimacy in those small groups where we could encourage and strengthen one another, you know, we have that in the small church if we'll gather together, and encourage one another, and, and that that would be a message I would have for people in the small church that think, hey. We can't do anything.
Jason:You can. You know? You can encourage one another, and give hope to one another because that's where I think growth from the church comes is, is being able to, to believe, that, you know, god's still doing something here. He's not through. God wasn't through with fellowship when I left, you know, 8 people, and it grew.
Jason:You know? So I always have hope that God can use the the few and grow it to many if we just trust him and and believe in each other, and strengthen one another.
T.J.:Do you think, Jason, you know, as a minister and a military chaplain and a hospital chaplain, that in situations where you've been in, where you have faced death, experienced death, that that brings into the our minds that that we're finite. Do you think that connects us with god or a higher power? And if we already have faith, does it strengthen it even more as opposed to when, I don't know, things are going predictably or maybe even well that we don't ponder or think quite as often of having having a relationship with God and growing in that relationship. What's been your experience or or or your thoughts?
Jason:I think, you know, what I've experienced just in the last year, you know, going in and making a pastoral assessment, you know, just of the spiritual needs of people, some people that have no family support or anything, and and COVID has played a huge role in what support we have in the church or in the hospital. Mhmm. I think that's what got me into this, initially was that when I'd have people in the nursing home, I couldn't go in because of our restrictions, from COVID. And I was like, hey. You know, I'm healthy.
Jason:I can get on the frontline, and I want to be on the frontline where people need support. And I think that's what led me out of the church into the hospital, when I made this transition to to hospital chaplaincy. But, there are people there who have a room full of people, and oftentimes, I don't feel like they need the chaplain as much as those that are by their self, you know, maybe no family. And you come in the room and it seems that you give them hope. And, and there are people that have that faith in God who are strengthened by it and say, would you say a prayer with us?
Jason:And then I've had some, like, a couple of weeks ago, an experience that I had that someone said no, you know, refusing physical therapy, refusing, to eat, and they said, well, let's send the chaplain in there. You know? And I think that the thought may have been, well, maybe the chaplain can go in there and and, get him to come out of their shell. And, I went in there thinking, well, I'm gonna change the world and, you know, get him to do all this or maybe I thought that's what my mission was from the hospital. And I didn't I didn't succeed.
Jason:I failed at it. You know? I walked in and I said, hey. I'm the chaplain, and I just wanted to come by and check on you. And he goes, that bad.
Jason:And that was the end of it. You know? We were talking about that case this morning, and my supervise, supervisor, I can't say it, she said, I would have said, I don't know. You tell me. My response wasn't quite that, but, he kinda withdrew more from me in that experience, and and I knew it could have been better or done better, but I didn't at that moment.
Jason:And sometimes you take those fails, you try not to let it affect going to the next room and and just starting over and doing it again. But, you know, with that terminal diagnosis of, you know, I'm not gonna leave this hospital, some people turn to God and find strength there, and you see others who, they just withdraw from everything. And, and I I think it's important or at least for me, it's important to have that faith and knowing that that I do have hope that even though these may be the the last days or the worst days of my life, that God will not leave or forsake me, that I know God's there, with me. And that's a source of strength that that I have. And, hopefully, when I go into the room, as we talk about faith, that I can give that same, hope, to other people.
Jason:And I know that not everybody, you know, receives that, but some do. And I was reminded in Ecclesiastes, I think it was chapter 11 in the upper room, earlier this month, that you keep going out there and you keep sowing. If you watch the rain clouds, you know, or the clouds thinking that, well, it's cloudy. It may rain today. I better not, go out and try it, you know, to keep you from planting the field.
Jason:But, my encouragement from that was that, go out and sow, you know, and and hope to seek, or seek to, reap a a harvest from that. And just water the seeds that you plant, you know, with with prayer and and friendship, and and, that's what my supervisor always says. You don't know how good a friend I can be. And that's what I try to be, you know, with everybody I see in the hospital, is try to be a friend to them.
T.J.:Yeah. Well, Jason, as somebody who is, entering back into the hospital chaplaincy, you have a a inward perspective, but also a unique perspective on the church, the Church Universal, and the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. What ideas do you have for us looking into the future?
Jason:You know, for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, I hear from being on the committee on ministry for a number of years, one of the things I hear at presbytery all the time is we need ministers. We need more ministers. Well, for somebody leaving the pastorate and going back to hospital chaplaincy, that sometimes that can I take it on myself? It's not that they're trying to do that, but it puts a heavy guilt trip on me that I've left the church. You know?
Jason:And, and sometimes I I do kinda think about that and say, man, you know, I don't know that I made the right decision, but, I I do feel like I did, for me and my family, and for, for what I my gifts are, my unique gifts, to go and to minister to people where not everybody has a gift to go in there into emergency department where somebody's been shot up and, you know, they're bleeding all over the place or, an experience I had back in the summer of of, witnessing, a young man die from being stabbed to death by a family member. And, you know, going back to Cain and Abel and, biblical stories that this has been with us from the beginning of time. I've seen the worst of humanity doing it, but also seen some of the best of it. And I I think for me, it tells me just how critical it is for us as Christians to be in our communities, be a light in our communities, and to go and to try to try to be hope in the midst of that kind of suffering to minister to people. We just had a shooting this last week down in Dumas, Arkansas where I think there are over 20 people shot in a mass casualty type of a deal.
Jason:And as far as I know, only one death has occurred, to date, but, the church, I think, has a responsibility, in our communities to change some of that, you know, the violence that happens because people don't have hope. You know, in our cities, you don't hear about it as much out in the country, but, you know, shootings and things of that nature seems like do happen and it's in our news all the time, and it's just a a reminder that, God has sent us into the world, you know, not to, to barricade ourselves up and hide in the church. And so often, my experience, just from looking at the church, around the world is that we're inward focused in our church, and we forget about the world around us. And I I just I wanna see us get out of the church and go into the mission field, in our community, you know, and not look at other churches as being a competitor to us. It's oftentimes how I've, you know, kinda seen us treat one another.
Jason:Even Cumberland Presbyterians. I grew up in a town with 4 Cumberland Presbyterian churches that you know, and we've become our own competitors at times. And, that's not in any way helpful, I don't think, to the the mission of the church, but, to work together to see how can we come together and, and reach the needs of people in our community. And that's
T.J.:To to push push you a little further, Jason. So in in 2022, what does that message of hope sound like? What does it look like? What does it feel like for the person that that is in search of hope?
Jason:Well
T.J.:Or they don't even have to be in search of it, but in absence of hope.
Jason:I saw something, just, you know, this week, looking on Facebook at Cumberland Chatter and looking at the things that churches are doing. The Cumberland Magazine has always been something that has shown me what's going on. You know, in churches, I was thinking about our good old buddy, Jimmy Bird, you know, from Bethel, and, his church being hit by tornado and and the work to rebuild it and, those kind of mission works, that, I'm trying to think what they call that that ministry now. It's it's, I've forgotten it for for a moment, but, just going and rebuilding, churches, in those, difficult times. But that's the that's the work.
Jason:Yeah. We could see it if we look for it, the magazine online, but so often we're disconnected from the rest of the denomination and what we're doing around the world because maybe we don't we don't access those resources, but, but that's what I see, where I see it. You know?
T.J.:Yeah. And I I wonder if it's so much of our DNA Well, it's twofold. So much of our DNA that, we don't recognize the the message of hope that we're spreading and sharing. Or if it is also sort of a humbling thing, like, we don't want to, be telling a neighbor or a coworker or a friend, hey. Guess what I just did yesterday?
T.J.:Yeah. You know, don't want it to become braggadocious. But Yeah. There is that element of trying to remain connected, but also in search of of, ideas. And and and maybe it's not something that we can do alone, but gathering with a group of people, maybe it's, a message of hope that we can share collectively.
Jason:I think, probably in just kinda wrapping up, you know, everything that my experiences and, of course, we didn't get into drug counseling from when I did that, earlier, but one of the precepts, I think it's a spiritual precept anyway, is that to keep what you have, you have to give it away. And, you know, going on mission trips and doing things, I think, is where people grow spiritually. When you get out and you do for other people, you see what God's doing and you become a part of it. Doctor Nick used to say, the the the term theosis, you know, that, that we are so small and finite, you know, and god is so big that, god, you know, gives a little part of himself to each and every one of us through the holy spirit and that we are, participants in what God's doing, cocreators, if you will, in the world. And, and and that's where God's using us, I think, is, by being the hands and feet and, and going out there.
Jason:And that's not just for the the preachers, you know, the professional paid Christians, but that's for all Christians.
T.J.:That's right. How can we continue to follow you on your faith journey, Jason?
Jason:I'm on Facebook, but I don't post a lot there. That's more, you know, my kids and my wife and kind of what's going on in the family. But, I I think, you know, in the future, just I'll be at Presbytery, and, hopefully, continue this journey, into chaplaincy in the VA, or somewhere like that. And that's where our hope and passion for me is, is helping other, you know, veterans like myself and and being a light there. And and that's what what I feel strongly led towards right now.
Jason:But, but being able to come back and share about it, what's going on, you know, in the church and
T.J.:Yeah.
Jason:Just just always being a part of of, who we are as Cumberland Presbyterians. Being on the frontier, that's kinda how I see it is it. You know, I'm I'm on the I'm on the mission field. I'm in the frontier still. You know?
Jason:Yeah.
T.J.:Well, listen. I know you have 2 children that are asking you to be dad right now. So I thank you for sharing your time with me.
Jason:You're welcome. It's been a joy and a privilege to be here. And thank you for everything you've shared, Jason, and thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with me on the next journey down Cumberland Road.
