Jason Mikel - Look What We Can Become
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God, this is The Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. Today's guest is Reverend Jason Mikel, a second career minister, a PhD student with an emphasis in communication and rhetoric, and the founder of the Nashville Burrito Ministry. Jason shares in our conversation a profound and transformative experience as a seminary student that is shaping his faith and his faith journey. We talk about the overlap and the differences of guilt, shame, and humility and how the gospel is an offering to examine the type of creation we can become. You are listening to the Cumberland Road podcast, and here is my conversation with Jason Mikel.
T.J.:Alright. Jason Mikel, thank you for joining me on the podcast.
Jason:With TJ Malinoski, the coolest dude in the room. It is good to see you, man.
T.J.:We're in 2 rooms on one screen.
Jason:That's right.
T.J.:Hey. You were telling me before, we were recording that you're back in school. So what are you studying, and what is it like to be back in school later in life?
Jason:I am, studying how to get a heart attack. It is absolutely the biggest mistake I could have possibly made. Do not take too much offense to later in life because it's true. But, I am at the University of Memphis doing comm and rhetoric, communication and rhetoric. I had thought about it for years.
Jason:The reverend doctor Andre Johnson, who has been at the seminary when I was was was at the seminary when I was there, is over at the doing rhetoric, race, and religion, and that sort of thing. So I when the pandemic hit and I was bored sitting in the house and they took the GRE requirements off of the PhD program, I was like, wow. Maybe I could do this after all. I had no idea what communication was when I walked in the door. I don't have a degree in that beforehand.
Jason:And, I tell people all the time, it was a top ten school for communication and rhetoric until I got there, and their lack of judgment dropped that number. So for allowing me in but it's been amazing. I I I think there are 2, sacred places in this world. One of them is in the church, in the sanctuary, in in sanctuary and worship. I just believe that there is a holy ground moment that can happen there, and I believe the same about the classroom.
Jason:There is something about having the mind pushed and open that, just thrills me. And to be able to study communication, how we make meanings, how we exist in this world together, by how we speak to one another and talk about things and think about things and identify things has been, has been amazing. The people I go to school with, are many times much younger, and their brains are much faster. And so I just sit there and listen at these brilliant people and then steal their ideas and try to slide them in a sermon somewhere to make somebody else impressed.
T.J.:Well, how does communication and rhetoric roll over and blend in with the community of faith? Yeah.
Jason:It's a really interesting question, and and that's one of the reasons that that I did get involved in the program is it one of one of the things about communication is it's not only how we speak to one another. It's how we define things, how we think through what something is, well, how something is explained has been explained to us, and how we take meaning from all of these discourses that exist in the world. So when we take that into the pulpit, one of the things that because become really important to me is stripping away the things maybe that have just been there as attached to me that I didn't even recognize were parts of my identity. And it takes some introspection and some thought, and and it can cause you to just have to step out of the box that you've existed in, and have to listen to somebody else before you listen to yourself. That's part of communication.
Jason:How do I hear someone say something when I know that it's bouncing off of everything that I am before it ever gets to me? So so stripping away those things in in bible study, in sermon, in our relationships as we talk with one another in the church, allows for me an ability as a faith leader to maybe investigate those connections more than I would have otherwise because I'm now reading billions of pages of paper to try to explain that process to me. And so I think that's important as I as I teach. You know, I I realized that I am not here now to change anybody. Let's speak truths out in the world.
Jason:Speak not even truth. Speak these, conceptions of the world that we see, and and how can we allow one another to be able to see something that we didn't see before, and allow one another that. To me, that decentering of how do we define ourselves and identify ourselves and communicate, to me, that is the essence of loving neighbor as much as you love yourself. I like to use the word value. I think valuing your neighbor as much as you value yourself, we can give you another way of looking at that.
Jason:Maybe there's other words that people can come up with. Love has been screwed up by Hallmark. So, but how do I how do I make sure that you are as valuable and as respected and is taken into, your opinion matters and your experience matters as much as my own? And that's what's allowed that that connection between calm and the sanctuary and the community of faith is where I really find so much benefit to what I'm being taught. Yeah.
T.J.:In your mind, Jason, what do you think that the community of faith is communicating really well to the world?
Jason:Okay. Well, see, those were all those questions, man, that get you in trouble because we can communicate things very well that aren't true and that aren't right about the church. I think right now, we're communicating very well how divided we are and how we don't, spend enough time in discernment of what it means to be a community of faith. We we we we talk about how, you know, the faith is so important and and incredible in our lives and we are the least biblically literate people in existence, ever lived. We are the least biblically literate.
Jason:So what we're communicating is to me, And I'm my church is perfect. Your church is perfect. Everybody listens to church is perfect. I'm talking about all the other Christians in this world. We're communicating, I think, sometimes that we wanna identify as this christian thing that that is attached to so much else that's not christian and we're communicating that very well, which is one of the reasons I'd argue that the church is on decline.
Jason:Now you turn around the other side of coin and you get involved in the church and you get involved in our churches. Everybody listen, yours and mine. But mine, I promise you, you get involved in a church and you find people that you don't agree with, that, that are so polar opposite in some ways. And you best bet the first time your wife goes in the hospital, they're gonna be the ones there with the biggest dinner that you ever wanted. Right?
Jason:And they're gonna show love and they go out and they give to the poor and they do all these things that you never even recognized. Right? So I do think the church, when we're in the church, we can see that. And that's the voice that needs to come out. How do we, in our very different existences, come together in a place, learn together, talk together, trust one another, be vulnerable to one another, and even when we don't agree, go out and do the absolute best work in the name of God that we can possibly figure out.
Jason:To do that, when you can see that, it is such a beautiful thing, and when it's communicated well, I think that can be I think that can be heaven on earth, man. I think that's that's the will of God done here.
T.J.:Jason, looking over your life, where has god really communicated with you, really spoken to you, and you heard or saw?
Jason:So, yeah, this is my this is my commercial, I guess, for Memphis Theological Seminary. That place, man, TJ, that place is is holy grounds to me. Back row, f 201. Left side, 2nd chair from left left, aisle, 2nd chair from the right. I was struck by God to the point that my entire existence flipped over in about 10 seconds.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Jason:I I am not always a big you have to have a salvation moment guide. That's not that's not my theology. It's great. I I those people who have those stories are amazing. And I thank God now that I do have one of those stories, but I think people can come to the faith in many different ways.
Jason:I thought I was a Christian. I was in seminary, brother. I had I was in my 2nd, 3rd semester of seminary because I did a summer class too. And and I was struck down. I I I saw where my entire existence had been tied up, and I didn't know know what to call it then, but identities that, were not as Christian as I thought they were.
Jason:And, and I recognized very quickly that, in a very real sense because some of the things that I had supported and believed that I was a murderer now and I had to come to grips with that really quick or I was gonna break down in a back row of a master's class. So I didn't do that. But I but it but I promised God in that moment. This is the word. Sure is the world.
Jason:These are the words. I promise God in that moment that I might be a whole lot of things in my life, but I won't go do that anymore. And and in that moment, I thank God for allowing me to, start seeing things that that I just had seen wrong when. And, and I I don't wanna go those those here because that's a wholly different conversation. But but but to know that that the spirit can work in that sort of way, that can flip your life upside down quicker than than than you can possibly understand.
Jason:And I thank God for allowing me to be vulnerable on that because, you know, you can block those things away. And, for whatever reason, I was blessed with it. So that moment that it that is my that's it, man. That's that's when I when people ask when were you saved, I can tell them.
T.J.:How is it, how is that transformed you moving from that classroom that day, that year?
Jason:I became much more, cognizant of my how do I say these things? Much more cognizant of of how just because I think something is gonna be right doesn't mean it's right. Now that's a problem when I get on the soapbox because I'd still think I'm right. But it has brought a a great humility in okay. I need to make sure that I always recognize that some of the things that I think right now are wrong.
Jason:That that has to I have to recognize that that is the case. You know, if we believe in in call it whatever you want to. Brokenness, if you if we believe in original sin, if what you know, whatever of that way you wanna describe it, if that's a thing, then some of the things I'm thinking right now are absolutely incorrect, and it's probably the things that I think I'm right on. It's not the things I'm doing wrong that, I'm like, I know it's wrong, but I'm sneaking in anyway. It's not that.
Jason:It's the things that I'm probably pretty passionate about. So I'm always trying now to remember that. I try to teach that. I think humility in, in our understanding, but boldness in what we believe, is is pretty important. So that's one of the ways it's it's changed.
Jason:And one of the other ways it's changed, it's it's it's called it's called me understand that, man, look in the Bible, dude. Jesus sided with the least of these and yelled at everybody who didn't like them.
T.J.:Mhmm. Where does that
Jason:That's just as easy as and that's as simple as the gospel is, man. He yelled at every he yelled at the people who didn't like the least of these and went nate with the least of these. So
T.J.:Where does that humility well from? Where does that come from?
Jason:Being wrong. Being just really dude, you have to understand the the the the the level at which I I I rooted. Like, I cheered with popcorn and coke the deaths of enemies, man. Like, I sat in for literally, I'm not I'm not this is not an analogy. I pulled up a chair in front of a television set and rooted for the deaths of my enemies with popcorn and a drink.
Jason:And and when you're reminded of that in the moment when you're being taught some very different ideas in the world and you look back and you realize how right you felt you were in some things and then how wrong you became. Now don't tell my wife I'm humble. Don't tell my kids. You know? They don't tell anybody I'm in an argument with.
Jason:They're gonna tell you I'm not. But I think it's really those those moments theologically really changed how I saw the faith. We're we're imperfect in we in how we do it. I'm not trying to get on a high horse about mystery humility over here because it's it's not true. But I do have humility, and I'm I'm I really need to process that notion that most of the things I'm very passionate about, I need to keep in check always because I might not have the whole story.
T.J.:Let me ask you a theological question then. What do you do with the guilt? Do you feel guilt for sitting in a chair, popcorn, soda, and cheering for the death of your enemies. And and you're not speaking metaphorically. You're speaking literally.
Jason:Literally. Yeah. I jumped up when I saw I jumped up when I saw things on television that in retrospect that a grandma was holding her grandbaby. You know? It that's my retrospective understanding.
Jason:That's not anybody else's understanding. That is me recognizing my own fault in that moment. Right? I I ain't trying to place anything on this. I'm recognizing what I felt and what I felt and what I believed in that moment was not correct.
Jason:Now what do I do with the guilt? One of the things that I thank God for is that, I have not we are not to be held by those decisions that that we make, even when we didn't know we're making decisions. The the beauty of the faith is that so many times, Zacchaeus, whoever you wanna talk about, come on over, man. Come on. You see it right now.
Jason:You're gonna get back even 3 times for whatever it was. I don't I don't know the bible long enough. I've proven that. You're gonna give that much more back than you should have? Man, awesome.
Jason:Congratulations. Come on. We're having dinner. Let's you know, there's that invitation into the community even as, you know, I know I know the depth of my own difficulty, and I'm still invited in. And so in that, one of my big things is, how do we not hold that over other people?
Jason:A, the least of these, because we're always holding that over their heads. Right? But also even my enemy. What why how do I not demonize my enemy to the point where I get there? And that's been you know, that's that's hard, but that's that's part of the faith, I guess.
T.J.:I asked that question because
Jason:I don't remember the question. This is how we've gotten out.
T.J.:Oh, how we were teaching. I was asking about guilt. And and I asked the question because, we all, as human beings, can carry that and and it can be a great burden. And I was interested in your response because yours is not isolated in terms of the guilt, as a Christian or or as a human being. And was wondering where is the repentance?
T.J.:Where is the the acceptance of forgiveness? Where is that assurance and that trust and that assurance? So I was interested in in your answer. And do you wanna elaborate more?
Jason:Yeah. I think one of the things too I think that is is we've gotta stop preaching the guilt and the that's not true. We gotta call that preaching the shame. We for whatever reason, we could talk about 1,000 cultural reasons for this, I'm sure. But we place have placed for generations such shame on especially particular guilts, the ones we don't like or the ones that for offend us for whatever reason.
Jason:Hey, ex smoker. I'm a ex smoker, dude. We're the worst. Don't smoke around me. I just it smells horrible.
Jason:Go away. I want you know, that we're the worst. Whatever it you know? And so we're always focusing on particular sins that we don't like for whatever reason, and we've laid such shame on a on a broad basis from the church that part of this, how do we get past it begins in the church. When when so and so comes in that you don't like for whatever reason, I've used single moms before, but we could use corporate greed just as easy.
Jason:Whatever, man. How do we sit down in a church service, and not share shame, but share the good news? And I think that that's one of my missions and all this is I don't ever want to, I place shame. That can't be a part of it. Now we can talk about how we are judged.
Jason:I got no problem with that. I was judged in that moment. But the judgment came from not, oh, look at you're horrible too. Look what you can be. Look what is not that, man.
Jason:Look what look what beauty comes from not being that. And that allowed for the repentance. If all I'm told is how horrible I am, and now you can come in this new way, that that's horrific. If you, if you can say, if if you can say to somebody, man, I get why you were there. I understand why you were there, but I got this other thing that I wanna show you that removes that layer of shame that we have laid so thick on for generations.
T.J.:As somebody who has had a transformative experience not in the church setting or not specifically in the sanctuary Mhmm. Or worship service. How would you help somebody, Jason, who has guilt of choices made in the past, mistakes, who isn't ready to walk into a church facility, a sanctuary for worship.
Jason:Yeah.
T.J.:You know, I mean, that's a that's a courageous act.
Jason:First is I'll I'll I'll argue that we had church in some of those classrooms. Like, I'd never had church before. So, you know, there was some church service going on in in in f 201 and other classrooms, but I hear your point. I think that let me collect my thoughts for one second on this. I think what we have what we have to do is allow people to recognize that the shame that they feel, the guilt that they feel is placed upon them.
Jason:If we look back at at the scriptures, when Jesus was forgiving people's sins, he wasn't telling them that I can read from it. I I don't see in those statements that those were people specifically who were doing horrible things, and that's the why they were invalid. That's why they had a deformed arm. That's why they couldn't, what, see or hear or whatever. What I read from it is that people were calling them those things because who they were.
Jason:It never said that guy had robbed a bunch of stores and so his arm went bad. What it said was his arm went bad and as a result of that, he didn't have much and people were saying, oh, look, that's a bad guy. Right? And so Jesus comes in and goes, don't worry about it. Go and sin no more, man.
Jason:You are forgiven of that. You are relieved of that. You don't have to listen to them call you that anymore. That's not part of your existence. Part of your existence now is being a part of this thing.
Jason:Now we do things different over here. We love our neighbor as much as we love ourself. We pray and feed our enemies. We do all this crazy stuff. So there is some things you gotta be as part of this, right?
Jason:But recognize what they said about you doesn't matter and what your creator said about you is actually what matters, which is that you are a child of God. Talking in it like that and relieving people of the cultural, the theological, the religious guilt that has been laid upon them, and giving them a new vision of the church, and allowing Jesus to become that redeemer, that savior, that not where you say a little prayer and ta da, everything is well, but that you were convicted about this way. That's what he called it. To me, that's how, that's how we relieve people of the, the shame that allows them to worship the creator that has has made this, man. I'm looking outside right now.
Jason:What a gorgeous day. God made this. Let's enjoy it. You know?
T.J.:Jason, where are the places and the times where you have received god's forgiveness?
Jason:That moment. Yeah. That moment with, with a family who, man, your family knows your stuff. You know? You you your family knows
T.J.:your stuff. Yeah.
Jason:And I have a a mother and a grandmother and a wife and children, that, god, they're rocks for me. Like, you know, what wife lets you preach full time, number 1, and then go to PhD, get a PhD 2 thirds time. Who, what wife lets you do that? Because you know I don't do anything else. Like I can barely put a pizza in the oven now, right.
Jason:So my family has given me that, that strength, that forgiveness of, or that recognition, not, not even forgiveness. They've, they've not, they've not allowed me to exist in, identities that, that, that, you know, that would, could be placed on me otherwise for, you know, dumb stuff I've done. They've you know, my mom listens to my sermons because she listens to my sermons. You know? It's it's, that's been that's that's been amazing.
Jason:And then I have a wonderful time preparing, sermons and bible studies. I just get the biggest kick out of that and feeling that passion and that all of that, you feel those good emotions, those other ones shrink away. And as I'm looking for the beauty of of of creation in scripture, when I'm looking at the beauty, when I'm serving in creation, when I'm doing a burrito ministry, we'll talk about that. I'm sure, we're doing that sort of stuff. That takes those other things away because you can't feel them when you're experiencing the goodness.
T.J.:Looking in the world that we are in today, where do you see God's presence? Where do you see God working in your life, in this creation?
Jason:In my life, in in in my ministry, you know, we can talk about several things. I can I could probably be very sentimental in bringing up some other areas too, I guess? But in in my ministry, I feel God working. When I, you know, when I have somebody come in, I'm sitting in my study right now in the church, and when somebody comes in and and we laugh and we talk and we do something good for the church and good to do something good for the creation or or whatever it is, or we tell a funny joke, whatever, man. Whatever happens in this place, just I see I feel the goodness of the the Christian community.
Jason:And that's just a blast. Like anytime I can find a place where we do it like Jesus calls us to do it and it works, that's just that's gold brother. And so I find it, I find that not all the time, obviously. Sometimes you're, you know, angry or whatever your emotion are, but I find that in ministry is, I can see the truth of what God told us is the problem. Like, you know, turning the other cheek that that that that, it's not a passive thing, by the way.
Jason:Look it up. It's very nonviolent stuff. Doing those things of Christ as we're called to do them that don't look like they should work and then they work. What's better than that? What's better than going to feed somebody who doesn't have food?
Jason:And just like the sheep and the goat said, jesus christ shows up in that person to teach you something. Like what, what is better than that TJ, right? And so I see that in my ministry, I see that when other people do it and I recognize that the community of faith is absolutely the coolest thing in the whole wide world. And if we do it right, it is it is heaven on earth, man.
T.J.:Jason, with half of you in the academic world and the other half of you in the practice of ministry, what ideas do you have for the church?
Jason:Oh, none. Like, I'm not sure what I need to do tomorrow. I've we you and I have talked. I'm such a train wreck with these things. I think well, okay.
Jason:That's not true. The pruning that's happening of the church right now, and we can call it the world all we want to, but every time the church has been pruned theologically, we've said, hey. Maybe god's involved in this. You know? We have identified what's that?
T.J.:Elaborate more on pruning.
Jason:Yes. Well, you you you look in in in some of the, the stories of scripture. You can look in the old testament, new testament, both. This idea that when the church the the church becomes too attached, too involved, that's not and that's not the best way to say it. That that could be taken so wrong.
Jason:But to, its identity has become too elaborate too much, too attached to the things in the world. That that pruning back that has happened to where we have less churches, man, we have less people in churches. Even the theology has been pruned back in some ways. It's, you know, it's as that happens, it allows for a re reinvestment in what our identity is. If we've attached our identity too much to nation, too much to political movements, both sides of that.
Jason:Right? There's a lot of people that that claim their politics from, in in very or claim their religion from their politics, rather. In these experiences where we've attached to business mind things, whatever we've attached it to, As we detach those things, we can go, okay. But, yeah, what's Jesus say about it? Like, when we go when we we take our tendrils away from our attachments to what it's supposed to be to be a Christian and be something else, then we can say, okay.
Jason:What's just what's Jesus have to say about it? And what we may find is that's very different than what we anticipated, which was my experience, you know. So I think I think us, if we wanna use those academic terms, recognizing how we create our identities, what we base those identities on, how those have been commune communicated to us throughout history, let's look at the church and say, why do we believe what we believe? Is it because we can find scriptural basis for some of these things that we're talking about? Or is it because we have some cultural conversations that are existing at the same time that we need to filter out so we can go back to, okay, what is the core of the message?
Jason:Jesus said the entire law is this, love, value, care, appreciate everybody else as much as you care about yourself because you love me that much. Right? And and as we prune away from all these other attachments, what I hope we find out is what radical kind of statement that is supposed to be. We take it as so precious and it is such a radical, ridiculous statement. Just so nuts.
Jason:But we can't identify with that if we're identifying within the world. I think that's one of the things that we can recognize, but we have to get serious about the discussion of why do we believe what we believe. And I think we gloss over that pretty substantially. I know I have.
T.J.:Jason and I have appreciated our time together.
Jason:Yeah. Me too.
T.J.:How can folks continue to follow you on your faith journey?
Jason:Yeah. So you gotta know about the burrito ministry to do that.
T.J.:Right.
Jason:We can find a Facebook page for that, Nashville Burrito Ministry. I come in a line of Cumberland Presbyterians who decided to make burritos because it's kind of fun to hand them out. I've only had one incident where we threw a burrito at somebody and that wasn't me. That was someone else.
T.J.:But talk for a minute about what that is in case Yeah. Sure.
Jason:No. Of course. We, not
T.J.:not the throwing the burrito, but what's the burrito ministry? Nobody's in that story.
Jason:Leo Chang, who was at the seminary, and kind of introduced many of us at the seminary to homeless ministry was in, I believe, Albuquerque, New Mexico 10, 12 years ago and met a woman who at home made burritos, took them in her car, went out to a place where the homeless collect. I like words other than homeless, but that's our common verbiage. And she handed them out, and Leo's like, that's pretty cool. So he went, I think, back to Barry Anderson and some folks over there. I think, Pete was involved, maybe Pete Yackey was involved at some point, at least with Mana House, and Leo was part of that too.
Jason:But but Leo went to to Iona and they started making burritos out of seminary. And I went for a couple of times when I first went to seminary and I was like, this is pretty interesting. So, I saw the manner in which they did this where it was very much about sharing grace and sharing relationship and sharing respect. People get called a lot of things in this world, and to call somebody by their name is really, really cool. So I saw Leo and everybody doing that, and then there was a church in Nashville, that decided to put a homeless camp on their property, which, like, in their side yard, they have tents, and the local landowner was upset.
Jason:You can find stories of this in Nashville 10 years ago. And, and so I'm nosy and have no pride. So I just kinda drove by the camp one day to see what was going on. God a guy named, Roger showed me around. And, the camp, there's, like, 25 people living in tents and stuff.
Jason:And so I, I asked him. I was like, well, what can upload exasperating me? Like, I didn't know what to do. I said, what can I do? And he said, well, we're hungry.
Jason:I was like, oh, dude, I can make burritos. So I went to the church I was in. I was a youth pastor at Cloyd's, Cumberland Presbyterian over in, Mount Juliet. And one of the women in the church, she's just hysterical. Her husband was the accountant.
Jason:He knew where every nickel was, but she just pulled 2 wads of bills out of her pockets and was like here. And it was $40 And somebody else gave me $10. And we took the youth group, me and my wife and Holly Venom and and our youth groups and thought we would serve burritos for a couple of weeks. And dog gone it if people hadn't kept giving us money for about 10 and a half years from now. So every week we make it nowadays, we make about a 130 burritos, a bunch of sandwiches, a peanut butter and jelly sandwiches that a lot of women in this community make, and some desserts that another group brings us, and 2nd harvest food bank helps us out.
Jason:And and we, we go out on the streets in Nashville and hand out about, hand out those burritos and to camps. And then Tommy Clark and some others from the seminary ride bikes on the same nights, and they go to to people in, individuals on the streets that we can't get to. So it's actually a really good marriage. And and our whole purpose is we wanna provide food. Yes.
Jason:But we also wanna provide community, respect. We believe it is an analogy. Everybody's gonna be hungry in like 4 hours, but this is a statement that we can make about who we side with. And so, we've developed relationships out of it, and I found Jesus in it, and tried to share know, what I see as the community of faith. And it's just been the greatest journey ever.
T.J.:If someone listening wanted to get involved, how could they do that?
Jason:Yeah. So make sure you go to the Facebook page and and you'll see some of the things we're doing. We we love money. Money makes burritos. And so anytime somebody wants to send us money, we're like, hey.
Jason:You have money, and we have hands to make burritos. Send it over. So you can find links on that, or on our, the the church's website. You can find it as well. Jenkins, Cumberland Presbyterian Church, Google that, and you'll find us there.
Jason:And so donate that way. But but but more importantly, listen to the stories. We share what we see, you know, on the streets because I thought I really thought, TJ, when we were gonna go to the streets, then we're gonna take some Jesus out there with us, and we're gonna show some poor people about how this wonderful Jesus way is. And when we tell them, boy, they're gonna shape up, and everything's gonna be great for them, and they're gonna get a house and blah blah blah. And what we realized was the truth of Matthew 25.
Jason:You go on the streets of Nashville or streets of anywhere and you serve people, you will find Jesus Christ left and right. And it's absolutely awesome. And, and, you know, we can share what we have, and and I am shared back all the time by by, my friends who just are just the best people in the world, man. They just, they got dealt a really bad hand in life, a lot of them. And I'll just tell you front up if I was in a situation they were in, sometimes I'll be an addict too.
Jason:You know? If that's what they most aren't, but I'm just saying when we think that that's who they are, well, yeah, you would be too. So
T.J.:So folks can find you, Jason, Nashville Burrito Ministry.
Jason:Nashville Burrito Ministry on the web, and then find Jenkins Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Yeah. You can find us there as well, and you can find it on Google or I mean, you can Google us or on the web or, Facebook or I think we're on Instagram. We're doing all kinds of stuff that I don't know anything about because I don't control that part.
T.J.:Alright. Jason, I appreciate your time. I appreciate your enthusiasm as we shared in this conversation.
Jason:TJ, you're the bomb, man. Thanks for doing this. And, I I look forward to, seeing how horrible, how great you make me look. I'll sound horrible in the raw tape, but you'll make me sound like a jerk.
T.J.:No. It will be fine.
Jason:Thanks, buddy. You take care.
T.J.:And thanks for those who are listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with me on the next journey down Cumberland Road.
