Jennifer Hayes - Finding The Sacred In Others
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. Today's guest is Reverend Jennifer Hayes. She is the director of spiritual care at Cooks Children's Hospital in Fort Worth, Texas. I pepper her with questions about death, the realities of it, and she shares how naming these realities gives us permission to talk about deep questions. As we talk about her faith journey, her calling into the chaplaincy, she shares for the church of how shared beliefs should never be prioritized over shared relationships. And it is our calling to find the sacred in other people. Enjoy my conversation with Reverend Jennifer Hayes.
T.J.:Jennifer, thank you for joining me on the podcast. I want to start our conversation off on a heavy topic. How do you help, in your ministry, individuals and their family through death and understanding understanding the dance of of life and death. Seems like so often we kinda push we push death over to the the corners of of life, but it's there. Sometimes almost a specter. And I've been thinking lately that, the Christian faith has something to say about death and that it isn't necessarily something to to to be feared. And I just wanted to ask you as a chaplain, what are your thoughts? What are your perspective on the dance of life and death?
Jennifer:Great question. I am a pediatric chaplain, and so part of what that means is that I'm not just working with grown ups who understand, conceptual ideas and, you know, things that are out there. I'm talking with children who either them themselves are dying or their siblings' cousins are dying. And so I think the most important thing when we are talking about death to children is to be concrete and specific. We cannot dance around the topic of death and expect people to understand what we're talking about.
Jennifer:The dead don't pass away. They're not passing anything. They don't, go on a long journey. Dead people don't pack a bag and start walking. We have to name it for what it is.
Jennifer:And that in and of itself, by naming the reality that we are talking about, gives permission for kids and adults alike to ask questions. It gives them the opportunity to, fully express whatever they are feeling. And in my experience and my professional opinion, anytime that we get the chance to name what is hard and what is difficult. We are in a sacred moment. It is a gift that we get to be in with people.
Jennifer:Death is hard. Death is confusing. Death is chaos and uncertainty. But to be able to be that calm, to be able to be the person to come in and provide grounding in a time of absolute awfulness. It's a sacred a sacred time.
Jennifer:But we can't get away with not talking about it because every living thing dies. And so we have children's books that we talk, to kids about. We work with child life specialists who assure that we are using the proper language. You know? We're not just saying, oh, yeah.
Jennifer:They're dead. We're saying, you know, their brain was so hurt that it doesn't work anymore. And because it doesn't work anymore, that means your brother's eyes aren't gonna blink anymore. Can you blink your eyes? That your brother can't anymore because he died.
Jennifer:His brain got so hurt that it stopped working, and so now his lungs won't breathe. Can you take a big breath? Yeah. Well, your brother can't do that anymore because he died. And we just go through those specific things with these children, because you can't get away with it.
Jennifer:And, I find that people of faith often want to bypass the death part. They don't want to talk about the sadness. They want to automatically jump to the celebration, but they're with Jesus. And then they freak out when the surviving sibling says, well, I wanna die and go to heaven too. And they're like, oh, no.
Jennifer:You don't. No. You don't. And so it's just finding that balance of being able to name what is real and also, provide space for faith around death and dying and resurrection and salvation, to be productive without kind of being scary or manipulative.
T.J.:So we've talked for a moment about the loved ones. But what about the individual who is dying? What words, what language, what discussions can we have with another individual who is facing death due to a, you know, terminal illness. You know, it's not something necessarily sudden, but something, you know, that is impending and maybe closer and maybe even predictable, in terms of a time frame. What do those conversations sound like, and what do you cover? What do you talk about?
Jennifer:It depends on the on the person. Some people, bring it up. Some people like that shock factor. It's really interesting when I'm with teenagers, and they are uncertain of who I am or what my role is, or maybe they are in a place in their faith development where they, are identifying as agnostic or atheist. And so then I come in and I'm like, what's up?
Jennifer:I'm the chaplain. And they're like, if you're here to bring me Jesus, get out. I don't want any. It's like, well, I'm not here to hang out with you. I didn't somebody following me.
Jennifer:I don't know. And so then they try to shock you up. Well, did you know that, I could be dead tomorrow? And I'm like, yeah. Me too.
Jennifer:Like, I could get hit by that bus as soon as I walk out the door. And so I think a huge key, component of talking to people who are dying, is to normalize it. Because, like I said before, dying is part of life. Every living thing dies. And so depending on their developmental stages and that sort of thing, it's very important that we don't underestimate their understanding of death, that we don't assume that just because they are a kid or a teenager that, they don't get what's happening.
Jennifer:A lot of times, they get what is happening to their body way before any grown up in their life is ready to acknowledge that. We have to be able to have open communication, but we cannot force it. We need to listen and then support. We have to know that it's okay to say, I don't know. We have to leave room for anger to exist.
Jennifer:Allow them time and space to say goodbyes. And if they want to, you know, practice their funeral, let them practice their funeral. Because when we are with somebody who is dying, especially someone who knows that they're dying, it's not about you. It's about that person, and how can we honor them? How can we honor the creation that God made within them?
Jennifer:How can we honor their sacred worth even in times of death? Also, it's important to realize, like, when kids are dying or when teenagers are dying, they're still kids. They are still teenagers. They still want to play. They still want to see their friends.
Jennifer:They still need a sense of routine. So whatever that may look like. They may not be able to go to school anymore, but, you know, we're gonna watch Bill Nye the Science Guy from 9 to 9:50 because that's what you'd be doing in science class today. They know what is going on. They want us to be honest, but we have to realize that just because they're dying, doesn't mean that all of their other needs just vanish.
Jennifer:We have to help keep them comfortable, meet the needs of what it is at that time. Are they feeling nauseous? Let me get you something to drink. Are they in pain? Let's call the nurse and see if we can get you some medicine.
Jennifer:But being present and following the lead of the person who is dying is really key in those moments.
T.J.:What about for those who who aren't living with death? And I would argue that most of humanity probably pushes that thought, like, out into the future, sometime out out there, you know. It not today. Maybe not even this year, but sometime out there. But we don't know that. And so how do we bring death a little bit closer to us so that it lowers the fear and to piggyback on the word that you said earlier, kinda normalize in the sense that it becomes a part of our vocabulary, but also a restful place to where it is it is not the specter. It's not on the outer edges hiding in the shadows, but it it really is a partner with life. So what advice do you have? And and correct me along the way when I use these, metaphors force and adjectives of trying to connect things. There may be better there may be better, so you can just calmly go, well, I would say it this way or that way.
Jennifer:Well, I think one of the things that we within the Christian faith can do to, connect what is alive and what is dead is to not skip over the hard parts of scripture, to not skip over, you know, parts of the Hebrew Bible where death and destruction are just coming at you left and right. You know, people wanna be like, well, the Bible says this, and it says this and it says this and it's like, but it also says this and you can't forget that part because us forgetting that part is why we're in this mess today. But I regress. But it's, now I forgot where I was going with this. Connecting life and death.
Jennifer:Thinking about the Easter story. Even as I just said it, it's the Easter story. It's the resurrection. It is Christ lives. Yeah.
Jennifer:That's true. But Christ also Christ also died. So what happened when he died? People weren't like, well, at least he gets to go back to God. No.
Jennifer:The curtain was ripped. His mother was crying. People were literally hiding in rooms and denying the existence of Christ. Chaos reigned, and we cannot skip over those parts of our faith story. Because when we do, it makes it harder in our real lives, the here and the now, to start to talk about some of those things when we skip over immediately to the good part.
Jennifer:Like, I get it. Death is uncomfortable to talk about. Death is not fun to talk about. But death is part of life.
T.J.:Yeah. And it seems like a odd opener for our faith conversation and your faith journey. So to take a break from death, we can always come back to it, what did young Jennifer want to be when she grew up? Did you see yourself as a chaplain?
Jennifer:Absolutely not. I wanted to be an oncologist when I was a little girl. My, grandmother died of cancer years before I was born, And I always heard these stories of her and how cool she was, and I looked like her, and I acted like her, and all of these things. And so in my head, if I became an oncologist, then somehow I would be even more connected to her. And so then I met someone who actually had cancer, and I learned about things like organic chemistry.
Jennifer:And I was like, yeah. This life is probably not for me. So, I did not go that route, obviously. But I do find it very interesting that though I am not, a medical caregiver, I am in the health the health care field. And so a lot of those desires continue to align without the science part because that would have stopped me.
T.J.:And it allows you to focus on, at least from, the ministry perspective, the all the stages of life and the individual as a individual, as a human being, and maybe not as a diagnosis or their chemical makeup.
Jennifer:Absolutely.
T.J.:So you get kind of the best of both worlds.
Jennifer:Yeah.
T.J.:Okay. So since we're living back with young Jennifer, how did you always attend church? Was that something that you grew into? What did your early faith experiences look like?
Jennifer:I have always attended church, Carmel Presbyterian churches, to be exact. I was born in East Missy and, was, I guess, brought into the Union Cumberland Presbyterian Presbyterian Church with Leonard Turner, who's apparently celebrating, like, his 50th year. Isn't that, like, insane? And then I, we moved to Presbytery for a time in the down Grace Presbytery. And I, entered into, under the care of the ministry in Grace Presbyterian.
Jennifer:Now you're making me think really, really far back. I'm like, I haven't thought about this stuff in so long. So I went under the care of the presbytery, in Grace Presbytery and was remained there. Lived in Murfreesboro Presbytery for a little bit, and now we are in Red River. So always been part of the CP church.
Jennifer:There are times that I've enjoyed it more than others. But as a general rule, I love the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. That we get when we get together.
T.J.:Yeah. Kinda like a a family.
Jennifer:Yeah.
T.J.:Yeah.
Jennifer:Yeah.
T.J.:Yeah. So pretty soon on, you said that the world of oncology may not be for you. How did a calling to ministry fit into that timeline? Because there's a pretty big there are similarities.
Jennifer:Mhmm.
T.J.:But that's still a pretty big leap. So let's talk about your your your faith development, but also kinda your calling into ministry.
Jennifer:I remember growing up, my parents would always say things like, you give Jennifer $5, it burns a hole in her pocket, but she's not gonna spend it on herself. Things like that. I was always in the nursery, like, helping care for other people. I would spend the night with widow ladies on nights that we knew it was gonna be really stormy because they might need help moving limbs so they could get out their car the next morning. It was just something
T.J.:And these were your ideas?
Jennifer:Most of them. Yeah.
T.J.:Wow.
Jennifer:And so I just I enjoyed being with people. I enjoyed having a purpose with people. I love being in community. And so it was just something that kind of made sense. But when I was 12 is when I really felt like maybe I am being called to some sort of professional ministry.
Jennifer:And I was like, no. Thank you. I don't have time for that. Appreciate the thoughts. I will just continue on with my life over here.
Jennifer:Thank you so much. And, obviously, that did not work out for me as I'm sitting here as a chaplain.
T.J.:What was it? I mean, again, you were 12 years old, but the 12 year old Jennifer, what what was not interesting to you about the ministry?
Jennifer:I was very aware of some of the pettiness that went on, amongst church people. And some of the incongruent teachings and the reality and actions of people of faith. And I just wasn't interested. I wanted things, in my life to have purpose and meaning and to being bring fulfillment and awareness to things that actually matter, not like the color of the carpet and things like that. And I was just like, if this is if this is what ministry is, is babysitting grown ups and telling them to do better.
Jennifer:I have other things I can do that seem a lot more fun than that.
T.J.:Well, something changed along the way because you are in ministry. So let's talk about that. Was that that a gradual change, or was it a lightning bolt experience? You know, some previous guests have used words like surrender and and, things like that. How would you describe it?
T.J.:Because I think everybody's, discipleship and their journey looks different. So I don't wanna put words into your mouth, but there obviously was a transition.
Jennifer:Yeah. My transition kind of centered around, like, my late teen years of experiencing people who were different than me, but had the same faith base, people who looked different, people who spoke different languages. And just to be able to be in spaces with them where it didn't some of the context didn't matter. It didn't matter that I was white and they were Hispanic. Didn't matter that they were speaking Spanish and I was speaking English.
Jennifer:When we went to worship, we both sang the doxology. And so being connected and experiencing that type of community started giving me a different perspective of what it could mean to be in vocational ministry. And I don't know that I would ever use the word surrender because that makes to me, when I hear surrender, it's like, God has got you by the back of your neck and it's like, you're gonna do this. And that has not been my experience. It's been more of a completion of who I'm called to be, an extension of some of the natural gifts and graces that I have.
Jennifer:And it really is a joy to be able to be in this place even with all the death and time.
T.J.:Last podcast, the guest was part of a clergy couple and so are you. And one of the things I was asking her is, well, what is that like and how do gifts complement, you know, one another? How do they contrast? So you are part of clergy couple, and I'm discovering that each couple is different. So I think our answers would vary, but I'm I'm curious to hear yours.
T.J.:And I'm sure if I ask Marcus, he may give a different response. But I have you in front of me. So what what is the life of a clergy couple like?
Jennifer:Well, it looks a lot different today than it had during the 1st several years of our marriage. We were living in West Tennessee when we first got married and Marcus was serving a church up in Covenant Presbytery, and I was the youth director at Mackenzie First Church. And so we weren't going to church together. We weren't ordained yet. It was, you know, whatever.
Jennifer:Then we moved to Henderson, Tennessee, and, we're serving this church together, but it was kind of a, we got Marcus, but we have Jennifer. So a 2 for 1 deal, and him trying to, like, navigate how to advocate for me, but also provide opportunities for me to be a part of this community. And on the same wavelength, I guess, it was also me trying to be like, I am more than just somebody who makes amazing macaroni and cheese. Okay? Like, let me get behind that whole pit.
Jennifer:And so that that church for sure was a huge growing opportunity for both of us in trying to figure out not just who we were as a couple, but a clergy couple and, how we best work together. In the midst of all that, I was able to start, the chaplaincy at Montgomery Bell. And so a lot of Sundays, especially, you know, in the summer, I was gone. And then we moved to McMinnville, Tennessee to the Liberty Church, and, I was the associate pastor there, and he was the pastor. And my scope was very much Christian education, and his was everything else.
Jennifer:And so we had to complement each other without kinda stepping on each other's toes. And so it was very much a continual process of learning to trust each other and the work and figuring out how to keep church at church and home at home. How can we not bring home the session meeting to our living room? And so that was that was fun and interesting and, but we are completely different. I am loud and outgoing, and he is very quiet and introverted.
Jennifer:And I think that's part of why we work so well together is because we really do compliment each other in all these different ways. I'm very impulsive, and he's gonna think through every situation 9 different times before he says anything. And I'm just like, come on. Come on. We could do this.
Jennifer:Come on. And so it we just are very complementary to each other in lots of ways and in working with each other as well. Here in Texas, he is, a PhD candidate, and so he has not been serving a church. And, I'm here at the hospital, and so we're completely different. So even though we are technically still clergy and we are serving in different capacities of clergy.
Jennifer:We're not serving together. And so it's just interesting when people find out.
T.J.:What do you think the best part of a clergy couple is? What what are some of the advantages, do you think, that maybe where, you know, in another setting, in another relationship, you know, it looks it looks different. Not not wrong, maybe not even better, but just different. But being in a clergy couple relationship, what advantages do you think there are?
Jennifer:One of the biggest advantages is automatically having people who are going to be there and care for you and your family. When you step into this place where you've never even been before your child's sermon, when you're moving hours away from anything you've ever known, you have no family there, and you have this little kid that's, like, tagging along with you everywhere, and you're trying to figure out, like, you know, the I remember one time when we were in McNimville that we had, I was also working at Children's of Erlanger in Chattanooga. And so that was, like, a 2 and a half hour drive from McNimville. And I was on call down in Chattanooga, and Marcus, was up at Bandy Children's Hospital because we had a kid in the church who was having surgery. And so we had to be in these different places, and then we have, like, our 3 year old, and we were like, well.
Jennifer:And somebody just came and picked him up, and he started running a fever while we were both in different directions. And so they took him to the doctor, and they got him his medicine, and they just cared for him as if he was their own child. And so to be able to go into these places, not know anyone, but automatically have family there is a huge gift to clergy couples.
T.J.:Let's talk about your new season in ministry in terms of understanding your calling and living it out as a chaplain. How did that happen? Oh, gosh. That sounds like there's something wrong. That is awesome.
T.J.:What did that look like? What did that part of your journey look like?
Jennifer:It was actually Let me start
T.J.:let me start over. I'll probably keep that in just because it's hilarious.
Jennifer:This is pretty funny.
T.J.:But, let me see if I can be a little more professional where it didn't where it didn't sound so accusatory. What's wrong? Like, there was something wrong. How did you grow into the calling of being a chaplain?
Jennifer:When we were at the church in Henderson, Tennessee, and I was able to start the chaplaincy at Montgomery Bell, I loved every second of it. I loved getting to go and meet these people who I never met before, probably wouldn't meet again. I loved going and hearing their stories. I loved hearing what brought them to Montgomery Bell. Also, a strange number of people pick Montgomery Bell because of furnace goes to camp.
Jennifer:That's a real side note, but, just it was so neat. And then
T.J.:Let me let me pause you for a moment here just for context. Let's talk about Montgomery Bell, where it is, and then, you know, the summer chaplaincy, and then how how you gather, in essence, your own community of faith each week.
Jennifer:Mhmm. That's a perfect description of what happens at Montgomeryville, gathering your own community of faith. That's beautifully said. Montgomeryville is, home of the birthplace of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And so we have the, birthplace shrine and the chapel that sits there.
Jennifer:And each summer, the denomination employs someone to be the out there. So they go and they spend the weekend at Montgomeryville, and they go to the campsites, and they gather their community. They they go, and they talk, and they learn about the people. They learn why they're there. They get, you know, to eat s'mores with random people.
Jennifer:All these really cool things. And then on Sunday morning, you lead worship. And I know that there was 1 or 2 times that nobody showed up, and then there were times that there were literally no places to sit, and we had animals worshiping with us. And so it was just so cool to be able to go into this place, know no one, and by the end of the weekend, have this experience that connects you to what is holy. And, be in this place where you get to experience the sacred of other people.
Jennifer:And it was in that experience, being the chaplain for several years at Montgomery Bell that it was really affirmed to me that my place in ministry was chaplains. I just loved sitting with people. I loved hearing everything that was going on. The floods in Nashville I'm trying to remember the exact year. Maybe 2010?
T.J.:2010.
Jennifer:2010? Okay.
T.J.:I think it's about right.
Jennifer:So that had just happened. And there were people who ended up at Montgomeryville camping because their homes had been destroyed. And they could get a tent for, you know, $50 and then pay $10 a week or whatever it is to have a little actual tent at the camp now. And so I was meeting these people in absolute chaos. It was no longer just families who were there, who wanted to go play in the creek with their kids and to be able to, watch a deer without it being scared by a car.
Jennifer:I mean, these were people who were experiencing trauma, and they were experiencing life altering hardships. These were people who had family members who died in these floods and who felt like they were completely forgotten. And when I got to have those conversations and I got to still hear and see God working in their lives, I was like, That's it. That is where God is calling me to be. And so I was able to do the internship at Saint Jude, with Lisa Anderson initially.
Jennifer:And when I finished my internship, I was like, I'm not done. What do I do now? And so, Mark Brown was able to help me, along with doctor Ramsey from NTS create some independent studies so that I could continue my work at Saint Jude until eventually I ended up at Children's of Erlanger. And then when we decided to move to Texas, we moved here with no real plan aside from, alright. Marcus is gonna get his PhD.
Jennifer:And so we decided that we should probably come and see where we are going to live, and we flew down for, like, I don't know, 30 hours. And I called the hospital, and Pam Foster was the director at the time. And I was like, hi. I would like to meet you. And she was like, well, let's work on getting something on the calendar next week.
Jennifer:And I was like, no. I'm I'm here. Can we talk? And she's like, what the heck? So I come in and I'm like, hey.
Jennifer:I wanna work here. And she's like, that's cute. I was like, no. Really? Like, I think I would be a great fit here.
Jennifer:Blogged blog, you know, giving her all my history. And she's like, okay. Alright. Thank you. Appreciate that.
Jennifer:Get back home to Tennessee, and, a few days later, I get this call from her, and she said, we would like to extend a job offer to you. And that's kinda how I got my foot in the door here. And 6 years later, I'm now the director of spiritual care at Cook Children's. So, it is really reflecting on all of those years of how it all connects and, you know, how we are talking about Marcus not being so different. I don't think he would ever walk in and be like, hey, let me let let me go ahead and tell you why I'd be right here.
Jennifer:But yet, I did, and it, has been a huge gift to our family.
T.J.:Well, you've given me a wonderful segue to talk about today. And, Jennifer, where where is God present in your life right now?
Jennifer:My 4 year old, I think, is where I see God most evident, unless you count yesterday. Yesterday was a really hard day, but, normally, he is he's very much made over. He is so silly, and if he thinks it, he says it. And he is always moving, and he's always just so crazy, But he loves people. And when he sees, you know, somebody at church that has a wheelchair, he automatically stops and says, are you okay?
Jennifer:Can I help you? You know, somebody drops their bullets in on the ground, or if I drop my he's the first one to come and get it. But even more than that, one of the things that I've really, really enjoyed with our 4 year old is his love of communion and his desire to partake in the body of Christ. And the first time that he was old enough to realize what was happening, you know, we're going through the words of intention and and, you know, this is the blood of Christ. And he was like, blood?
Jennifer:We can't drink. What? I was like, let's pretend blood. And he's like, oh, oh, that's fine. And so now, anytime that he we go to church, every Sunday, he says, do we get to eat Jesus' body and the pretend blood today?
Jennifer:And just that desire that he has to continue to get closer to God, whether he realizes that's what's happening or not, But just that awareness, his intentionality of, I don't know why this is fully important, but I know that it's important, is probably where I see God most evidently right now.
T.J.:Let's talk about the church and the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and and the church universal as a chaplain, as clergy, as a Cumberland Presbyterian, what are we doing that is spot on, and where do you think some of the areas, the church as an institution, that we're missing?
Jennifer:I would have never have said this as a kid, but I absolutely love the tradition of our church. I love the liturgy that we use. I love the use of the lectionary and how it connects people of all times and places and, throughout the world and throughout different languages. I, every time that there's some traditional element that we participate in during worship, I can't help but think that that is a glimpse of earth being as it is in heaven, which is that connectivity and that community and the beautiful beautiful gift that that community is. As far as what we need to address, I think the church just needs to get out of its own way.
Jennifer:We have to stop prioritizing shared beliefs over shared relationships. We can disagree with people, but we can do it without condemning everybody just because their experience and their understanding of God is different than my understanding and my experience with God. Because you were not me, and I am not you. We are a community. And so we have to focus on each other, not focus on who we can keep out.
Jennifer:We need to be able to live in the community that, is so vital to who we are as followers of Christ. We have to keep making room for people at the table of God who are hungry. And when we do that, like, what's the worst thing that's gonna happen? God's grace is gonna get out of hand? Like, that happened a long time ago.
Jennifer:Perhaps you remember this thing called Jesus' death when he looked out and he said, oh, these are the people that put me here. God, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. Like, grace has been out of hand for 2000 years now, and so us being hospitable and us being kind to one another is not going to destroy the church. It is going to do nothing but enhance it.
T.J.:Let's talk about ways in which we can enhance the church. I'm you have been, you know, a firsthand witness to, you know, the pandemic and the strain that it puts on the medical field, and also the strain in terms of ministry and the church life and burnout is real, What advice do you have for ministers, for caregivers, for those in the medical field to help keep healthy physically, spiritually, mentally?
Jennifer:Therapy?
T.J.:Alright. You say it with a grin, that's why I was so I I laughed because I thought maybe there was more like it it was a punch line but it's not. So so speak, speak more, speak more deeply.
Jennifer:So so often, therapy is stigmatized as something that you engage in when there's something wrong with you or there's a specific issue that comes up. But it it's not the point of therapy. The point of therapy is, just like a checkup for any other part of your of your personhood. You go to the eye doctor for checkups. You go to the dentist for checkups.
Jennifer:You go to the doctor for full checkups. Like, go to a therapist for a checkup to see how you are. There's sometimes that we just honestly don't realize how heavy laden we are until we intentionally find time and space to acknowledge it.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Jennifer:Therapy gives you that opportunity. You have to be goes back to what we were saying, but then you have to be willing to to name the hard things, to name the reality of what is happening. And you're not gonna do that unless you make it a priority. And if you're paying somebody to listen to you, you're gonna make it a priority to make use of your time. If you are missing work so that you can go to a therapy session, you're going to make use of that time.
Jennifer:Therapy is so important to just to do the check-in, to have somebody to bounce things off of that, has no stake in the game.
T.J.:Alright. Well, let me play the devil's advocate. Let me let's see. You run the risk of being vulnerable and recognizing the need for help or assistance when expectations are that you are to be the foundation for many. So I would say that there is resistance within clergy specifically to seeking out a safe space to be able to share and to intentionally look inwardly in terms of the relationships and their vocation.
T.J.:How would you encourage someone to, I don't know, embrace that vulnerability, embrace that fear?
Jennifer:One of the things that I have continued to tell myself, like, I literally have, like, little reminders over here of things that I think are important as a leader to do. And one of the things that I have over here is never ask your people to do something that you yourself are not willing to do. Mhmm. Which means, even though I am not required to work overnight, since I have been director, we've had extenuating circumstances. And I've worked overnight because I'm not gonna expect you to do something that I'm not willing to do myself.
Jennifer:I'm not going to expect you to take on all of the depths and all of the crazy situations that are happening without me also being willing to do that. And so for us as leaders, us as clergy persons, to go ahead and tell all those people, you need to take care of yourself, therapy is a way of doing all of that, honey. Like, therapy is a way of doing all of that, honey. Like, you don't have to wait until things are about to implode.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Jennifer:Jesus, again, huge fan of community. He had his people that he talked to. You can have your person. Don't tell your people to go and do something unless you yourself are also willing to do that. You have to take care of you before you can take care of anyone else.
T.J.:I wish we had video for this because you did a lot of finger pointing while you while you were sharing.
Jennifer:I do. I get I get real excited.
T.J.:Well, in defense, the Malinovsky family, we we talk with our hands. All of us do. It's interesting to see it in in children where everybody, when we get animated and really invest in what we're talking about, the hands come out. Yeah.
Jennifer:How do they work?
T.J.:Jennifer, are there books or are there movies that really speak to you, that have impacted your faith, that you enjoy, that you recommend, that, you think would be helpful to others?
Jennifer:So the first book that I think should be requirement for every clergy person and every boss of any kind of anything, is this book by Laura Van Durnot Lipsky, and it's called Trauma Stewardship, an Everyday Guide for Caring for Self while caring for others. And, basically, this book is written for anybody who is doing work with an intention to make the world more sustainable and hopeful. People who are trying to make the world a better place. People who, through this work, are exposed to hardship, pain, crisis, trauma, or suffering of other living beings or the planet itself. I read that from the website.
Jennifer:But it is absolutely fantastic. It addresses, the importance of our spirituality, with the importance of being grounded in the aware not just the awareness of the trauma and the chaos that we enter into, but how to be able to not make your pain my Mhmm. How can we support each other and be in these helping relationships without it destroying our own soul? It is it is such a good book. Like, I I recommend it to every medical director that I talk with.
Jennifer:I actually, this morning, literally this morning, I texted the president of the hospital, and I was like, I don't think you've read this yet. You and the rest of the admins need to. It is such a good book. Such a good book. And then also, I really love children's books.
Jennifer:And, Max La Cotto, You Are Special. It's about a a little boy puppet who is waiting to, meet the carpenter and his hardships only to get to the carpenter to realize that the way that he was created was the way that the carpenter wanted him to be created. And it's just so beautiful. So and then What is Dots, I by Rachel Phillips Evans, and it is her children's book.
T.J.:We began our conversation on death. Let's end the conversation with life. What is your favorite thing in life?
Jennifer:Oh, jeez. I feel like I should probably say my husband and children.
T.J.:Okay. You got your probably out of the way.
Jennifer:Thank you. But also and this is so silly, but it brings me so much joy. I really love Kool Aid.
T.J.:What flavor?
Jennifer:Blue raspberry lemonade. So good. Bite and bulk. Like, the way to my heart, and my husband knows this, is, like, if I drink all the Kool Aid before work and I come home to a gallon of Kool Aid already made. Yes.
Jennifer:I love love Kool Aid. I well, I can't show you, but this is Kool Aid. I drink it at work. I drink it at home. I just I love Kool Aid.
Jennifer:It is a
T.J.:Is it the color? Is it the flavor? Is it the process of of it being made? Does it throw you back to summertime as a kid? What what is it?
Jennifer:I don't know. It might take me back to summertime as a kid. I remember when we would go to camp by Williamson, my mom would take, like, the pre sugared Kool Aid, and she would measure it out into individual baggies and give us a water bottle that had the correct ratio. And so we would go around at Camp Park Williamson drinking Kool Aid. Where is that coming from?
Jennifer:How do you have Kool Aid? My mom made me this cool little pouch. And it's like, well, we could have been millionaires, but we didn't do anything about that. But so maybe that is it. I don't know.
Jennifer:I just love Kool Aid.
T.J.:Jennifer, thank you for your time. Thank you for your finger pointing, your your intake, your your your focus, your perspective on on death, and how to help us along as individuals, as humanity to to to view it. Thank you for sharing, your calling in the ministry and what it's like to be part of a clergy couple and your humor. I appreciate it.
Jennifer:Thank you, TJ. I appreciate you.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please consider subscribing on Apple, Spotify, Google, or your favorite podcasting site. To close this episode, I want to read from a poem written by Reverend Joyce Merritt. A few years ago, she wrote a book entitled Naked Before God, A Journey Into Light and Life. Here is an excerpt from the poem, Reflections of Love. She ventured out a little further, willing to take a risk a little more, not with dread and isolation, but with trust and anticipation, and even the hint of joy. And she began to glimpse her own image as that of a beloved child she sought to be. She began to reflect some light herself of an earthly form, not of glitter or of a false shine, but of love. And she saw herself becoming the loving mother and the beloved child she was always meant to be. She then met the one who was the source of the light, and her reflection became bright. Not of love she craved or sought or earned, but of love that had always been just for her. And she saw in that light, from above, below, and within, the beloved child she had always been.
