Cumberland Road

T.J.: 00:02

You're listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. Following is a faith journey with Reverend Jill Carr. She is a staff chaplain at the Mercy Hospital in Springfield, Missouri. In this conversation, Jewel openly shares life experiences where her faith was challenged in death, in health of her daughter, Allison, and in divorce. And yet and yet facing the brokenness and naming it. This is a powerful conversation, one that raises questions that I am still pondering. What is enough faith? Can it be measured? Can it be seen? Can faith adequately be described? Enjoy this faith conversation with Jill Carr.

T.J.: 01:10

Tell me about your first memory that you can recall of encountering God.

Jill: 01:20

Well, I was raised in the church. My parents were Christian, and, we were always in church. They were both leaders in the church in different ways, and the church was our community, beyond the bounds of the faith community. They were our friends. That was our social life. That was everything. So I would have to say my earliest memories are of laying in the church pew during worship in my mother's lap.

Jill: 01:58

Mhmm. And, you know, when I think about my earliest memories of God, it would have to be saying prayers at home, bedtime prayers, mealtime prayers, before I even knew what I was doing and why it was important.

T.J.: 02:18

When you were laying down in the pew, did you look up at the ceiling? Were you looking at the pew in front of you? The floor below? What was going through your young mind?

Jill: 02:31

I think it was probably how much longer will this last. And my mom was very strict. She was very structured. And, of course, you know, we had to be very quiet. And I would ask her questions about things that had nothing to do with church, but were on my mind and she would say, we'll talk about that later.

T.J.: 02:51

Did you get up in her ear and whisper it? Or did you just No. Like some children know, like, there's a reverence or there's a unspoken rule of the volume of your voice. Yeah. There's something about a little voice asking faith questions.

Jill: 03:11

I think, you know, I was whispering obviously for her and she would just lean over and answer me.

T.J.: 03:18

Mhmm.

Jill: 03:19

But she had this look on her face. So you knew I mean, I knew if I asked a question or if I were talking, and I shouldn't be she didn't have to answer me. She had to look. And so I, you know, zip it. So yeah.

T.J.: 03:41

You mentioned, prayers at mealtime and, at bedtime. Did you do those alone? Did you have one that you had to memorize?

Jill: 03:52

We had a few that we memorized for, for mealtimes and we took turns. I was the youngest of 3 girls and so, dinner time, supper time as we called it, we, we would take turns. And, at bedtime, my mom would come to each of our rooms and, say prayers with us. And and in the beginning, they were the memorized prayers like, now let me down the sleeve.

T.J.: 04:19

Mhmm.

Jill: 04:19

And, God is great. God is good. It was

T.J.: 04:25

Yeah. The traditional prayers. Mhmm. When you were little, what did God look like? What did you imagine if God was in physical form?

T.J.: 04:37

What did your young mind imagine?

Jill: 04:40

Yeah. I think my image of God then was the way God is pictured in any, pieces of artwork and Sunday school literature, maybe not so much anymore as it was when I was growing up. But, you know, the old man with long gray hair and a long beard and and that sort of thing, but male and white Mhmm. And gray hair as a person.

T.J.: 05:08

With a matching robe. The the robe always matched the hair and the beard, didn't it?

Jill: 05:14

Yeah. That was my image of God. I knew that God loved me. I knew that God wanted me to do well, I believe that God wanted me to make right choices and good choices because my mom was a very, like I said, structured black and white person in terms of issues and beliefs. And, so I had this very defined sense of right and wrong early on.

Jill: 05:44

My dad was more of a, you know, he would contemplate things a bit more. And he was the person of wisdom, and he was the person that wasn't quite so structured, but would really give things thought and would and would have different types of conversations with us than than like my mom did.

T.J.: 06:09

Which of those characteristics did you pick up and carry on with you into adulthood?

Jill: 06:14

Yeah. I'm like my mom. Like my mom, very, I have to say that as I've gotten older and as I've learned different things and gone through different things in my life that I'm not as, I'm not the black and white, that I was as a young person, young adult. There's, in most cases, not a clear right or wrong, black or white, for me anymore. But, yeah, that's that's who I was early on.

Jill: 06:50

That was the only world I knew. I understood it. And in terms of, like, personality type and those kinds of things, I do have the characteristics and traits of my mom, mostly. But, yeah, through opportunities of learning and through, yeah, different kinds of work, professional work, and personal experiences. You know, I've come to a different place.

T.J.: 07:27

There's something admirable about viewing the world and life in black and white. I've always admired it, almost as a in a wishful way in terms of an attribute in viewpoint. But I've never been able to operate that way. There's too many nuances. There's too many variables.

T.J.: 07:51

But again, I admire it because it was like, no, it's this easy. It is left or right. It is up or down. And my life has never been that way. So and the older I get too, it's like, oh, it's so many shades of colors.

T.J.: 08:10

Mhmm. And I'm glad I've been able to see. And as the older I get to run with this metaphor, the colors get added to. So it makes it beautiful. In awe inspiring way, Like, woah, the world is much more vast than I could have ever dreamed.

Jill: 08:30

Right. And I think for me, it makes me a more compassionate person, and understanding other people because I don't don't feel like their choices or who they are can can be defined and put in 2 categories, you know.

T.J.: 09:01

How does that help you in your present role in ministry and vocation? And just for context, can you talk about what you do?

Jill: 09:14

Well, for, a year now, full time, I have been I am a hospital chaplain at Mercy Hospital in Springfield, Missouri, and I, visit patients and families every day, all day long and it and it can look like a lot of different situations because we're called to a lot of different situations.

T.J.: 09:41

Are you on a special floor or is just whoever the patient in the family may be that comes into the hospital? Do you have an expertise?

Jill: 09:52

I am, primarily a trauma chaplain, so I cover the ER and neurotrauma ICU and our burn unit, which is an ICU unit as well. We are trauma 1 facility, and I've spent quite a bit of time in the last year working in our behavioral health hospital as well. I I will be phased out of that and just focusing on trauma very soon. So yeah, I mean, you asked about different kinds of people, of course. But I think it was the church that exposed me to different kinds of people.

Jill: 10:38

I grew up in, in rural Missouri, the Midwest, the Bible Belt, in a county that is still over 97% white people. And, the church gave me my first opportunity to participate in anything outside that community and, to meet people who are different than me. Who looked different than me, who had, different cultural experiences than me, who sounded different than me, you know, all all of those first discoveries of diversity.

T.J.: 11:20

How did the church do that? How did you get those experiences?

Jill: 11:27

Well, my first experiences with would have been, going to CPYC and being a youth advisory delegate to general assembly. Those are my first experiences.

T.J.: 11:40

You know, I've never really thought of it that way. So it is through the church that your mind was expanded to the the larger community of faith, which has such a variety of of people.

Jill: 11:54

Yeah. And then it grew from there. I mean and largely through the church, but then then, I also was able to, over the years, felt called to volunteering in in different spaces, like, and this came about later in life, But to volunteer in nonprofit organizations that, served our our friends in poverty or experiencing homelessness. And then I'm probably jumping around here, but that I am jumping around. That along with, experiencing different types of mental illness in, family members and then in myself.

Jill: 12:53

When I think about diversity now, it comes in many different ways. Socioeconomical, gender, in our, is it ableness? I'm not sure if that's the right word. I wanna get socioeconomic, gender, race, education, you know, all of those things sort of fill in those spaces

T.J.: 13:34

of

Jill: 13:36

of who people are, who they can be, who they were made to be, and show me, the body of Christ and God's children in a different way, you know, than I was exposed to Mhmm. Growing up in my home county of rural Missouri.

T.J.: 14:03

How did you, as a person who sees things very clearly as an either or, how did you allow that to enter into your little world when people practice their faith, interpret their faith differently than you do. Mhmm. Did you jump in there and I don't know you that well, Jill. But did you jump in there with arms extended and a posture of like, well, let me tell you where you're wrong?

Jill: 14:37

Where I really started to discover people who, who identified as Christian but had maybe different beliefs than me was when I was gosh. I I don't want to admit to how old I am or how young I am, but I was serving I had just had Allison, my only child, my daughter. And she was 10 months old. And I was asked by Frank Ward to serve on the production team, which what did we call it before? We called it a design team for Presbyterian Youth Triennium.

Jill: 15:17

And it brings together youth and adults. At that time, it was the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, the Presbyterian Church in Canada, and, Presbyterian Church USA. So we had 3, forms of Presbyterianism represented. And that was the first time that I learned that even among Presbyterians, there was this wide range of theological beliefs. And I just listen to people And, because I didn't know, enough Sorry.

T.J.: 15:59

Just keep going. It's fine. You have a family member that's contributing.

Jill: 16:03

I do. Yeah. Because, yeah, because I didn't know enough to then, like, to ask questions. I just like tucked it away and I'm like, oh my gosh. You believe in the first shocker for me was, you know, someone didn't believe in, a distinct heaven and hell as as places, as locations that people went to, but they I can remember this person saying, we were on a bus riding from one location to another.

Jill: 16:38

And it was, you know, I think hell is separation from God. And I was like, oh, wow. I've never heard that thought process before. You know? And it was just like, wow.

Jill: 16:49

There were and there were many others that followed that. Right? It it was just learning and listening and getting to know people, and I think I think I think that's the crux of it. When you're open to getting to know someone, that's that's how you become for me, that's how I became exposed to various beliefs within the spectrum of Christianity, different theological beliefs within the spectrum of Christianity. And because I I knew these people and I loved these people and I worked with these people and I saw the hearts of these people and I saw their callings by God to ministry, it was okay that maybe some of their beliefs were different than mine.

Jill: 17:47

But also that caused me to begin to question, well how did they come to this belief, right? So then it it allowed me over time to explore different ideas, different beliefs. Yeah.

T.J.: 18:06

Yeah.

Jill: 18:06

Different different thoughts.

T.J.: 18:08

Some of that contemplation that you talked about, it was a characteristic of your dad. Maybe it was in there earlier than you thought.

Jill: 18:15

Maybe so.

T.J.: 18:18

Jill, when you were a little girl and a teenager, what did you wanna be when you grew up?

Jill: 18:28

Oh, goodness.

T.J.: 18:29

Did you have a career in mind? Did you have a path in mind?

Jill: 18:34

It's funny. I really didn't. Of course, as a kid, you know, you think you wanna be all kinds of things that you don't turn out to be. And I can remember my mom. My mom worked in a bank for 40 years and she was, both my parents, didn't have the opportunity to go to college.

Jill: 18:49

So from my earliest memory my parents, especially my mom, would say when you go to college.

T.J.: 18:58

Mhmm. It

Jill: 18:59

was never there was never an a thought that I couldn't go to college or I wouldn't go to college or I had a choice about it. My parents valued education so much because they didn't have it. And, it was always when you go to college. I didn't have an idea of what I wanted to do. I knew the kinds of things that I could be good at.

Jill: 19:26

I mean, not not in terms of, a vocation, but in terms of this is what I'm good at in school. So what what correlates to that? So I did go to college. I went to Missouri State University and ended up with a my bachelor of sciences in finance. I am a concrete thinker on sequential, so, you know, numbers and things in order, made sense to me.

T.J.: 20:06

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Jill: 20:07

They still do. I don't, and I did work in that profession for a while. I worked in finance for a while. Got my MBA, with an emphasis in finance. Worked in the private sector as, yeah, worked in manufacturing companies as a manager of, like, production, computer systems, accounting, that kind of thing.

Jill: 20:36

Was a controller in another organization.

T.J.: 20:40

Now what is a controller? That sounds very controlling.

Jill: 20:43

Well, I was an assistant controller. I didn't maybe I didn't say that right. But

T.J.: 20:46

yeah. Okay.

Jill: 20:47

Yeah. I mean, for that or for that organization, it was I oversaw all of the accounting functions, including like, you know, cost accounting, accounts payable, accounts receivable, and budgeting, meeting budgets. Yeah. What's in them?

T.J.: 21:12

Looking back in that time, I mean, were these just jobs or did you how did your faith fit into that? I mean, or was it very separate things? Crunch numbers during the day, go to church on Sunday, participate in weekly activities. Right. How did that mesh?

T.J.: 21:30

What did that look like for you?

Jill: 21:33

I was, active in my congregation at that time, serving in ways that I could serve. I have to think back now it's because it's been a while but Sunday school teacher, choir member, eventually elder.

T.J.: 21:56

And is this your home church? Is this the church that you grew up in?

Jill: 22:01

It is. It was. Yeah.

T.J.: 22:02

Alright.

Jill: 22:04

Yeah. And then I, so during this time, I was also taking vacations to I would take my vacation time to to be on staff at CPYC or Camp Cumberland, which is our Presbyterian camp in Missouri. And it was, one one summer at CPYC, and I think that's really when the call to ministry came. Well, I know it was when my call to ministry came.

T.J.: 22:35

Oh, but things were going so well for your vocation. You were already active in church.

Jill: 22:41

Yeah.

T.J.: 22:42

Why this wrinkle of the calling to them? The ministry of the word and the sacraments. Weren't you doing enough, Jill?

Jill: 22:53

Right. It wasn't, you know, I get that week I was on the worship team and working with others, planning worship every day, and then leading worship, these parts of worship. And everything was, like, cool through the day. It was like your normal routine. And then we would get in worship.

Jill: 23:25

And I would just start crying. I cried as soon as worship began, as soon as the songs began, as soon as I started talking, like sobbing, crying, not like a little glistening to you or anything. It was like ugly cry, sobbing. And I couldn't like I couldn't read scripture. I couldn't read call to worship.

Jill: 23:44

I would be, like, stuck in the middle and everybody would have to wait until I could say the next words. And then from there, we would go to quiet time and I'd continue to sob. And so this went on day after day. I don't even know how many days it went on. And people were like, are you alright?

Jill: 24:01

What's wrong? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. Something, you know, something's wrong. I guess, you know, I need to confess about something.

Jill: 24:08

I don't know. And, and then I don't even remember who, but somebody said, I think you're being called to ministry. Have you, you know, like, have you thought about that? I was like, no. Yeah, I had no idea what that meant.

Jill: 24:25

Right? Mhmm. But then as the week went on, I continued

T.J.: 24:29

Really? Excuse me for interrupting. So that had never crossed your mind before.

Jill: 24:34

Not really. No. Mm-mm. Not whole time ministry. No.

Jill: 24:38

Mm-mm. I mean, working in the church, being a leader in the church, serving in the church, being on committees, being on presbyteryal boards, being on denominational boards, because I'd done all of those things by this time. And, so Yeah. No. It had not occurred to me ever.

Jill: 24:58

I guess I'm kinda dense maybe.

T.J.: 25:02

Well, again, you had alluded to an ordered life, an ordered career. This was not an ordered adventure.

Jill: 25:12

Yeah. No.

T.J.: 25:17

Were you repulsed? I mean, what was your reaction, to this this individual who pitches an idea to you. Oh. That maybe maybe the emotional reaction is to something meaningful.

Jill: 25:40

Well

T.J.: 25:41

You were doing meaningful things.

Jill: 25:44

Sure.

T.J.: 25:44

But

Jill: 25:47

It it helped me then shift that time of you know, I got to take advantage of the rest of that time at CPYC

T.J.: 25:58

Mhmm.

Jill: 25:59

In talking with people and praying about those things and looking looking at that as, is this what this really is? And then that continued after I went home. I continued to try to discern that call.

T.J.: 26:19

What kind of time frame are are we talking about? Weeks, months, years?

Jill: 26:30

It was weeks months at first and, I talked to people in different places, you know, throughout our denomination and talked to people at our seminary. And, things were At that time, I was tied to, the Lebanon area because, my husband was involved in a family business. I couldn't relocate. At that time, there were not, you know, virtual classes or cohort programs or hybrid programs or any of those things.

T.J.: 27:13

Right.

Jill: 27:13

And so

T.J.: 27:14

You just missed those. Not by a whole lot, but you

Jill: 27:18

just missed I did. It took a while. So at that time, I looked at, compatible seminaries and that kinda came down to maybe there's one in Saint Louis and then, of course, ours in Memphis. And I just couldn't do it at that time, because, my daughter was young. It wasn't it wouldn't have worked for our family.

Jill: 27:46

So I kinda came to the conclusion that, okay, I can't go to seminary right now. Maybe that's not for me. What can I do? So that sort

T.J.: 27:58

of,

Jill: 27:58

prompted me to start reading, start studying, start going to conferences or meetings that could be helpful in in helping me learn more about teaching, leading, where my ministry might be, alongside still my full time career in finance.

T.J.: 28:36

Okay. So before you took the plunge into part time or full time student, you went ahead and you were just kind of exploring what was available to you in your free time, in your off time. Is that right?

Jill: 28:55

Right. That's correct. I started working with youth in my, congregation, and I think I was drawn to youth in the beginning because, my experience in the church as a youth was so formative for me.

T.J.: 29:10

Mhmm.

Jill: 29:10

And I wanted that for other young people. I wanted them to see, and discover some of the things that, shaped my life and shaped my faith and to help them feel, to let them know that that they were part of the church, important in the church, and and those kinds of things. And then as I volunteered in that way, it really and the the outside participation, like, I went through, like, our CE consultant program, I went through the Princeton. I'm not gonna think of the right name right now, but formation. Gosh, they had a youth ministry program at the time.

Jill: 30:00

And I went over the course of 3 years and got a certificate in, in youth ministry and theology or something like that. So I did those kinds of things to help to grow and to, and continue some some form of ministry alongside my personal life

T.J.: 30:19

and

Jill: 30:19

professional life at the time.

T.J.: 30:22

So you were one of those many, many people who was juggling family and your vocation and responding to a call in the ministry which meant more education. Mhmm. And I admire those who take those those, juggling apparatuses and are able to do all of them. And for many, folks are able to do all of those very well. When you got to that place in your career, in your journey, your faith journey, were you able to juggle vocation, family, and your schooling well?

Jill: 31:11

Well, probably not. I tried. And the one thing about me is I'm an Enneagram one, which we might wanna put a pin in that for now. I don't know. I I want to do things really well.

Jill: 31:34

And I grew up at a time when I can remember when I was a kid, my mom would tell me, I hope things are different for you than they were for me. I hope, you know, meaning women and gender in the workplace or in the world would look different and be different than it was for her. And so I was determined to to succeed, at whatever I did and to do it in spite of the fact that I'm a female. And so there were challenges in the business world, and I was determined to prove I could do it, and do it with a child and do it with, you know, outside, commitments as well.

T.J.: 32:42

Let's pause here and live for a moment. So, Jill, if you were in conversation with an individual who was in their 1st or second career and they were discerning and exploring the options before them, including a call to ministry, what advice would you share with him or her? And then if you don't mind, I'll make it a 2 part question. Would your response be different if you were speaking to a female than it would be a male? Just from your own experience, you're drawing from your wealth of wisdom and knowledge that comes with life.

Jill: 33:24

Yeah. Yeah. It would be a little bit because, and and that's something that as I have sort of as I have shifted from ministry in the church, to ministry as a chaplain in a hospital, that I sort of rediscovered all all of those things at play again. Mhmm. And, you know, working with people of all ages, you know, which I identify, I think I identify more with like youth and young adults, because I've worked with them for 30 years, and kinda would rather be around them more than people, you know, my own age.

Jill: 34:03

But, you know yeah. Well, I I'm especially drawn to them and I still feel called, you know, to to be with them in in in ministry and in in doing life. So

T.J.: 34:23

Mhmm. I don't

Jill: 34:24

know what you call that, but yeah. I I think it still would be different, unfortunately. I I have seen how things have shifted, to more of a balance in in life, in ministry, for for women. It it has you know, we continue to make progress to to a more equitable situation. But, I still see young women or women continuing to be challenged in ways that we should not be challenged.

T.J.: 35:14

What words of encouragement would you share with them? And would they be words of encouragement? Maybe you're discouraging them. No. Please don't.

Jill: 35:24

No. I would always encourage people because I I mean, you know, at the at the heart of all this, if it's ministry or even in other vocations, I mean, if you are called, you know, it it's pretty hard to deny that call.

T.J.: 35:38

Oh, you'll be you'll be miserable if you continue to push it aside.

Jill: 35:43

Right. So, there has to be, I think I would encourage someone to follow their call. I mean, I I think that's at the heart of of that whole that whole situation and that question. But to know that there's gonna be perhaps unique challenges because of your gender And not to be surprised by those, because I think I think we're surprised by things that we didn't plan for. Right?

Jill: 36:19

Mhmm. So we might we might know that there's some situations that that we might be treated differently or that we might need to approach differently. But then there's always those things that pop up that, oh, gosh. I didn't think of that. I didn't realize that that was gonna be a situation that would be challenging for me

T.J.: 36:39

Mhmm.

Jill: 36:40

Because I'm a woman

T.J.: 36:41

Mhmm.

Jill: 36:41

Or a female. So, yeah, there's gonna be surprises and there's gonna be challenges. And I think like anything in life, how we respond to that, in a faithful way is the key. How do I remain faithful to god and to my calling and to myself and continue to let out my calling.

T.J.: 37:10

Mhmm.

Jill: 37:11

And and then be able to respond in a faithful and healthy way to that situation.

T.J.: 37:21

Jill, we've been bouncing around kinda chronologically, which is great. I like having conversations like this. In speaking of your faith, what times in your life where it was severely challenged and tested? And how did you come out on the other side of it? And and this this goes back across all your life.

T.J.: 37:50

Yeah.

Jill: 37:53

So there's a lot in there.

T.J.: 37:55

Well, yeah. Well, if something happened today, then please.

Jill: 37:59

No. No. No. And these are things that have that have come up, you know, in my ministry because these are events that have changed the trajectory of my life. That's how that's how I like to frame it.

Jill: 38:16

And these are, events that have informed me as a human being and as a minister and as a chaplain. So the first the first event that challenged my faith would be the death of my sister. I was 15. She was 17. She died in a car wreck.

Jill: 38:43

And my oldest sister, who is 5 years older than me, was away at college, already married. And so, my middle sister who died and I were the 2 that were living at home at the time. So when she died, then I was the only one. And, what I remember about that time is because I was the kid, nobody paid any attention to me. I was invisible.

Jill: 39:15

I was invisible in the home while everyone was worried and consoling my parents as they should have been. I was invisible when my sister came home because she had her husband. I was invisible at the funeral because, again, everybody had somebody. I didn't have anybody. Right?

Jill: 39:42

I was invisible in the in the weeks that followed because my parents were grieving so deeply and in such different ways that they couldn't help me. And not that I probably would have understood what I needed at that time anyway. So yeah. I mean, like, that was the probably the time in my life that I was angry with God. Not so much that I completely turned from my faith, but, you know, it's like, why did this happen?

Jill: 40:11

The maybe one of the most asked questions in any kind of tragedy or difficult personal situation is, you know, why this happened to me? Why this happened to a good person? Why do bad things happen to get people? All of those kinds of questions. So, it was a challenging and difficult time over time, with the help of friends and, you know, eventually family.

Jill: 40:39

I came out of that and I never lost my faith, but, it was a time where I questioned God, and was angry with God.

T.J.: 40:53

Do you think that God can handle our doubts and handle our anger?

Jill: 41:00

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I didn't I didn't learn that till much later in life.

T.J.: 41:04

Mhmm.

Jill: 41:05

But it's like how how can we think that God can't handle that? Mhmm.

T.J.: 41:10

I

Jill: 41:10

mean, how can the creator of the universe, the all powerful, all knowing, all present God. Not handle a little doubt and a little anger from me. And then we also have how many examples of the Bible do we have of people doubting God and being angry with God and crying out to God and and all those things. So absolutely. And that's that's one of the things that I have hope I hoped I have imparted, with young people that I've worked with is that God can handle you.

Jill: 41:52

God can handle your thoughts, your opinions, your anger, your pain, and your doubt.

T.J.: 42:00

Yeah. What kind of relationship would it be if God couldn't? That would that would change the aspect of the meaning of grace.

Jill: 42:13

Yeah. And I think it would it would also change, Yeah. It would change the meaning of grace. You said it better. You know, because our God is a is a God who, you know, suffers with us, who suffered for us, who suffered on this earth.

Jill: 42:40

So that, you know, you know, Jesus suffered on this earth, lived the life that on earth. So so that, he could walk with us, through the sufferings and challenges and emotions that we have, would change all that.

T.J.: 43:09

Looking back, with the loss of your sister, you know, teenage anger is real. How did you how did you release that anger? How did you let it go?

Jill: 43:27

I'm not sure I even know. It took a lot of time, for me to understand how I how and why I felt the way I did. I don't think that's that's one of the reasons I'm such an advocate for young people, for telling people the truth and paying in plain language, for not diminishing their thoughts and feelings and emotions, for not dismissing them, thinking, oh, they don't understand, or, oh, kids are resilient. They'll come back from that. No.

Jill: 44:04

They have the same the same feelings, the same emotions, the same questions that most adults do, but they haven't had the lived they haven't had the lived experience yet to always know how to cope with that

T.J.: 44:23

Mhmm.

Jill: 44:24

Unless there's someone who will show them and someone who will allow the space for them to, feel those feelings and not be told, oh, you know, you gotta be strong for your parents now, which is what I was told over and over and over again, even by my own pastor at the time, telling me that it you know, I needed to suck it up or buckle it up and and and be the resilient one in in that time.

T.J.: 45:01

Were there other times that your faith was stretched, challenged?

Jill: 45:11

Yeah. First yes. I'd like to say, oh, that was it, and life's been perfect. There were sense. Yeah.

Jill: 45:22

So, when I have my daughter, I went through a health crisis myself. And then later in life, I mean, well, when I had her, I had preeclampsia undiagnosed. Then when she was born, I had eclampsia, then I had heart issues, then I had neurological issues, then I had autoimmune issues. It's a whole host of health concerns came up. At the time, we were told that she shouldn't have been born healthy.

Jill: 46:03

She shouldn't have been born alive. So she was a miracle and all that, and a healthy child until she turned 18, and then she began having chronic illness and still has that, today. So all of those health issues, mine and hers, have been extremely challenging.

T.J.: 46:34

I've gotten to know the 2 of you over the years. And maybe when I first got to know you was around shortly thereafter some of the health crises within your family. I've seen the 2 of you kind of partner up in terms of, encouraging one another and, supporting one another. What's it like to have a partner, when you're not feeling well and when you're faced with health issues.

Jill: 47:11

Well, you know, there's that old saying that if you don't have your health, you don't have anything. And as Christians, we would counter that with, well, that's not exactly true. Right? Like, if you don't have your faith, if you don't have your belief in God and your trust in God, you don't have anything. But from my experience, health is a close sec a close second because, beyond that, of course, what do we want?

Jill: 47:38

We wanna be healthy to live this life, to do the things that we need to do, the things we want to do, the things we dream of doing. And I think health challenges are something that almost every single person either experiences firsthand or they experience through, a loved one. Maybe you're the one with with health challenges or maybe you're the caretaker of the one with health challenges. So, you know, for me as the mother of a young person who has dreams and hopes and plans of her own. And then, you know, we as parents tend to have our own hopes and dreams and plans for our children.

Jill: 48:28

Even though we are like, oh, you know, we know it's their choices, but we really like to have these things for ourself. Like, It

T.J.: 48:37

was like your mother and father wanting you to have an education.

Jill: 48:43

Yes. And, you know, of course, I wanted, my daughter, Allison, to, pursue her dreams, to use her gifts that God has given her, to use, to use all of herself, to discover this world that's out there, to experience the world, to live this abundant life that I had envisioned for her, that we had envisioned for herself.

T.J.: 49:10

Mhmm.

Jill: 49:11

And, every day, every week, every month, every year that has passed, you know, I've continued to hold out hope that that will happen. We're now in our 10th year of chronic illness and chronic pain and chronic, multiple doctors and appointments. And and as a mother, I have been the primary one to be with her throughout that journey, You know? Every doctor's appointment, every day that she couldn't couldn't literally sit up. Every doctor that said they couldn't help her or the ones that said they could and didn't or the ones that told her it was her fault or the ones that told me it was my fault.

Jill: 50:09

I mean, we could go on and on and on and on about the journey that she has had and that I've had alongside her. Mhmm. But she manages her health on her own now. Her life has not turned out like I thought it would, and I think she would say that her life has not turned out like she thought it would or wanted it to. But, you know, we still have hope, and we don't know all the reasons why.

T.J.: 50:49

How does your faith inform you as a parent, the love for a loved one, and then your ministry as well. How does all that inform and deepen your faith? Because it sounds like it'd be really easy just to be angry and pissed off at at how life had turned out, you know. Not the expectations, not the visions, not the dreams.

Jill: 51:21

Yeah.

T.J.: 51:21

What's kept you from pulling your hair out, Jill?

Jill: 51:24

Well, I think I probably did a few times or a lot of times.

T.J.: 51:27

Mhmm.

Jill: 51:27

And I I didn't lose my faith in god, but I didn't understand the plan, the purpose, whatever people wanna call it. People have different words that they like to use, but I did not understand why at some point, God wouldn't bring her health to the point that she could live an average daily life, and what I might call a normal daily life

T.J.: 52:04

Mhmm.

Jill: 52:04

Of, enjoying life more than, you know, being pain free more than she's in pain. Completing all of the education that she wanted to complete. To be using her gifts that are many and vibrant, but many times are buried underneath pain, physical and emotional and mental pain and stress. So, yeah, I have probably run the gamut of emotions, with God where that's concerned. You know, I've had people say, you just have enough faith.

Jill: 52:46

Well, first of all, how do they know how much faith I have? And second of all, what is enough? What is it? I have faith and I have a relationship and I am in fervent prayer, you know, and so are others and so is she. So, yeah, I prayed for a miracle many times.

Jill: 53:14

But miracles I've come to know take shape and form in different ways. And what I want and what I see and what I think is good and right and best is not necessarily what God believes is best for me

T.J.: 53:41

Mhmm.

Jill: 53:41

Or for her because I cannot see beyond what I can see. And at the heart of it, I believe God wants the best for us, and I believe God will bring about the best for us in the midst of a life where we have free will and others around us have free will. And, you know, circumstances out of our control. Amidst all of that, God is working and God, you know, God loves us unconditionally. I don't know why he's that word because he don't like that word.

Jill: 54:26

That's what does it really mean. You know?

T.J.: 54:31

Comprehension.

Jill: 54:33

Yeah. Yeah. God never leaves us or forsakes us. Yeah. God's love, We're never separated from God's love by anything and,

T.J.: 54:44

so

Jill: 54:44

that so that tells me tells me God will work, is working in my life and will, bring about the best for me.

T.J.: 54:58

Earlier in our conversation, we jumped in fairly early into the vocation that you have now as a chaplain in the hospital. So kind of going full circle, we'll go back to that. With all these life experiences and these challenges of the faith and the calling and the ministry, how much of that, how much of Jill do you bring in to the visiting room, to the hospital room?

Jill: 55:28

Yeah. We are trained, first of all, to be a chaplain a hospital chaplain, the training is insane. The word chaplain is used differently and it means something different depending on where you are and where you serve. Mhmm. And for it to be a hospital chaplain, you have to have, a a masters of divinity or an equivalent kind of degree, of 72 hours or more.

Jill: 56:00

And then, you have to have 4 units of CPE clinical pastoral education, which takes a year to complete at minimum. So we are taught in clinical pastoral education to drop on our life experiences in the sense of knowing how we felt and using that in an empathetic way with our patients.

T.J.: 56:38

Mhmm.

Jill: 56:39

It's not about us. It's about them.

T.J.: 56:42

Mhmm.

Jill: 56:45

We don't we are taught not to talk about our experiences and how we worked it out and what God did for us and all of those things, you know, that's not it. But if I am in a healthy place now, which we can have a whole other conversation about what means to be healthy personally, professionally, spiritually. Right? I will remember what it feels like to be a parent sitting at the side of my daughter's hospital bed.

T.J.: 57:32

Mhmm.

Jill: 57:33

So I can understand some of the emotions and feelings and fears that another parent has. It can be a different situation. It can be, you know, somebody's son had an ATV accident, or it can be, you know, an illness. It can be anything. But I can connect with that parent because I've had that experience.

Jill: 57:58

I know what it's like to sit next to the bed of, my father who, had hard issues until his heart about gave out and have to make the decision. Do we stop the defibrillator? And, does he go in comfort care

T.J.: 58:22

Mhmm.

Jill: 58:23

And let it pass naturally or not? I know what it's like to be a caregiver for for parents, and children at the same time. So we use our life experiences along with the other training that we're given, to inform us to how patients and families might feel. I work in a in a Catholic hospital, so it's much more easy for me to talk about my faith, even though we serve patients and families who are all Christian and to have other, religions or no religion at all. And we, support all those patients according to their own beliefs.

T.J.: 59:17

Kind of a sidebar question. Do you in terms of uniform, do you have a badge? Do you wear a clerical collar? Do you have that easy in that signifies that when you enter into the room, people know who you are?

Jill: 59:37

We have a badge, but, you know, it's not easily readable. You know, especially when you're sick and in bed. Maybe you don't have your glasses on. You're Right. Frankie and all those things.

Jill: 59:49

I mean

T.J.: 59:50

Who are you?

Jill: 59:52

Yeah. And so we, you know, introduced myself and who I am Mhmm. At the beginning, but they don't always catch that for whatever reason. You know, they got so much on their minds. And, yeah, some of them don't hear well.

Jill: 01:00:08

Some of them don't see well. You know? Some of them are sedated. You know? You've got all kinds of situations.

Jill: 01:00:16

We wear, just business business casual. I think it's different in every facility. We do have a priest and and nuns, and they wear, collars and and, I guess, they still call them habits. I don't know. That's probably all term.

Jill: 01:00:35

But they wear black clothes. So, you know, sometimes I envy that because because they are easily recognizable. There's pros and cons to that, I guess.

T.J.: 01:00:51

Mhmm. I have it I've had several chaplains on, as previous guests, and I've noticed it does. It depends on where you're serving, where you're working. And I think if I was a patient and I discovered that you weren't there to draw blood or give me a shot or whatever, I would just be relieved. Faith connected or not to be oh, thank goodness.

Jill: 01:01:15

Yeah. And I think that yeah. That's definitely true and it's definitely true for, pediatric patients.

T.J.: 01:01:22

Mhmm. But

Jill: 01:01:23

just let them know, hey. I'm just here to say, and he's here to talk to you. And, my friend

T.J.: 01:01:28

to prove it to me. Make sure it's not bait and switch. You know, like, Here. I do have a syringe.

Jill: 01:01:35

Yeah. You wouldn't want me doing that.

T.J.: 01:01:37

Yeah. Or even worse here, fill out these forms.

Jill: 01:01:40

Oh, yeah. Sometimes I get upset when registration comes in. Mhmm. Like, I'm sleeping alone right now.

T.J.: 01:01:50

Jill, are you in a healthy place?

Jill: 01:01:57

I think I am healthier now in the past few years than I've been ever in my life. I went through my life fell apart. My life as I knew it fell apart when my husband told me that he didn't wanna be married anymore and he left. And through a long separation and a very long divorce process, I had to do a lot of, personal reflection, that word that we use a lot, that is way more painful than I mean, like, it was it was a deep dive. Right?

Jill: 01:02:56

It was a deep dive in personal reflection and,

T.J.: 01:03:00

But excuse me for interrupting. You you had the tools and have the tools now that you probably didn't at the age of 15.

Jill: 01:03:13

Right.

T.J.: 01:03:14

There's a big difference. I'm not minimizing your experience. I'm just something that comes with age and then the field that you're in is would help, I would think, in that context. I'll let you speak more to that. But

Jill: 01:03:34

well, at that time, I was in ministry. I had, you know, backing up a little bit to that to that time when I felt called to ministry, but I couldn't pursue it in a way I in a traditional way of going to seminary. Like, literally 20 years later, I discover a program called Center For Youth Ministry Training that had part partnered with Memphis Theological Seminary. And it was a cohort format that allowed me to go to intensive weeks, you know, like, a week of intensives, and then come back home, continue to study, do work, do work online, have group discussions online. Then, you know, 6 weeks later go back for another week of intensives.

Jill: 01:04:33

It was that kind of format.

T.J.: 01:04:35

Mhmm.

Jill: 01:04:35

So it allowed me to pursue a seminary degree by spending time in Memphis, while living in Lebanon, Missouri. Near the end of that, I really, felt called to to get my masters of divinity because I wanted to be ordained to word and sacrament and to continue to serve, youth and their families in that way. So that's what I did. And then, became ordained and, was serving as an associate pastor and when when my marriage and my life and my family fell apart, You know, every, you know, everything became in question. My identity as a human being, my identity as a woman, as a wife, as a mother, were all in question to me.

Jill: 01:05:44

Like, I didn't know who I was anymore. Like, how how how could I have been in a over 30 year marriage and, and now all of a sudden, who was I? Right? In that situation, I ran to god because I couldn't run anywhere else. Mhmm.

Jill: 01:06:13

Where where else do I turn? It was not I couldn't explain my feelings to other people. I didn't want advice from other people right then. I was in too much pain. So that's when I started really, really seeking god in a way that I had never sought god before.

Jill: 01:06:36

And, also, trying to discover, who I was again as a child of God, who, who God wanted me to be in the future, and and and what was my calling gonna be? Was it changing because of all of this?

T.J.: 01:06:58

There's so many questions that for you, not for me, just for you. I mean, to have all of that collapse in on itself.

Jill: 01:07:12

Mhmm.

T.J.: 01:07:14

But then, I would think there's a lot of freedom of discovery there as well.

Jill: 01:07:22

Yeah. I didn't I didn't see it or feel it as freedom of discovery. You know? I did it out of desperation. Okay.

Jill: 01:07:31

And, you know, like, I I can't, you know, I could I could I could go deep and dark for a while because there was a lot of darkness for a very long time. A lot of failure, a lot of guilt, a lot of shame that that I brought on myself that I I didn't deserve, but that was the place I was in at the time.

T.J.: 01:07:56

Mhmm. Did you do this alone? You don't have to mention names, but is was this a path and discernment that you did alone?

Jill: 01:08:06

In the beginning, yes. It was a strange I mean, like, everybody's got their own story. Right? And and every situation is different, but my husband did not want me he forbid me to talk to other people about any of this for months months. And so I kept this secret that he was gone, that that he didn't wanna come back even though, you know, that's what I hoped for, prayed for, worked for.

Jill: 01:08:39

I would have done anything to please him and to bring to bring him back. And

T.J.: 01:08:45

Now you're close to your family. You're not telling anybody.

Jill: 01:08:51

Months went by before I told my sister. And at this time, of course, I have one sister.

T.J.: 01:08:56

Mhmm.

Jill: 01:08:56

And I just told her that, we were going to counseling, and it was not good. At the same time, my mom was ill and dementia had set in. My dad had already passed a few years prior, so so my sister and I were taking care of my mom on a regular basis along with some other outside help, but we were caring for my mom at the same time. The counseling that I was in at that time, my husband was only going to say he was going, so it would look good when he finally made the, you know, file for divorce, which he admitted to later. But, so that counseling was not helpful.

Jill: 01:09:45

I tried a couple other counselors that were recommended. They were not helpful. They were created more harm than good until I finally found a counselor who happened to be a pastor as well. And being a minister and a lifelong Christian, I was leery of anyone who labeled themselves as a Christian family counselor because that can mean a 1000000 different things. And, I didn't want someone else's theology pushing against mine, but I, you know, God made a way for me to end up with this person who is a pastor, who has also been who is also a a clinical licensed therapist.

Jill: 01:10:39

And with with his help and, eventually, with the help of family and friends and my own efforts. You know, through all of that, I learned a lot. I learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot, about my faith, and my faith changed for the better. My relationship with God changed for the better.

T.J.: 01:11:12

In in what ways? It it's it's interesting to hear, and I think others should know as well, that when somebody is in ministry, does it mean that your your faith is stagnant or there's a sense of completion because you have a piece of paper and a

Jill: 01:11:36

Yeah.

T.J.: 01:11:36

Box somewhere or or on your wall. Could you speak more to that, you know, even though we may be professionals, professionals that are growing, but not necessarily growing as in we have additional certificates or continuing our education. Bail me out here, Jill. What am I trying to say?

Jill: 01:12:01

I don't think I have, like, a super profound answer. It it may be an answer that many people have heard others say, but this is what has been true for me. You know, I've mentioned times in my life that I've, had to come face to face with god in different ways. But in those other situations, I think I still had some control in my life and some control in how deep did I wanna go with God. Right?

Jill: 01:12:38

I'm the type of person that, is a hard worker, and I feel like I've been given knowledge and skills and abilities, and I got training and whatever I've been equipped with. Right? Whatever God has given me in addition to whatever I have, learned and practiced. So I'm able to work to bring about I'm not sure what word I'm looking for. Work to bring about some actions, some, conclusions, some Something.

Jill: 01:13:29

Right?

T.J.: 01:13:30

Change. Transformation.

Jill: 01:13:32

Yes. Thank you.

T.J.: 01:13:33

Yeah. So, like,

Jill: 01:13:33

in the in the instance of my daughter, did I work tirelessly to find the right doctors, the right locations, the right education, the right everything that I could do, I did. Right? Not to the exclusion of my faith in God and prayer and practicing my faith, but I didn't have to 100% 100% completely rely on God because I didn't have any other recourse or options or ideas. Right? So I still had an element of control in that, and I exercised that control.

Jill: 01:14:18

When same with my health, same same with other major challenges I've had in life. But when but when I faced when I faced, the brokenness of my life in every way that I could see at that time. A broken family that I never thought I would have, a broken marriage that I considered, you know, to be sacred and restorable, just brokenness all around and a and a truly broken heart, in many ways. And I couldn't All I could do was learn to trust God in complete uncertainty. I didn't know.

Jill: 01:15:31

I'd that's all I can say. I learned to trust God in complete uncertainty, and I did it through clinging to scripture, like, burying myself in scripture and prayer and journaling. Journaling was a big thing I did on my own. Therapy. Doctors and medication, which I needed.

Jill: 01:16:01

That's a whole other part of this that, you know, I discovered that I really suffer from anxiety and, have suffered to some degree from anxiety and most of my adult life, and it became severe during this time. So at this point, I say, you know, for me, it took medication and therapy and a lot of Jesus, to survive that. But the things that I found so and I'm wondering around. What was different being an education an educated person and a minister and coming out of seminary. It was, that experience.

Jill: 01:16:55

It is the personal experience, of having to totally rely on God and having no other options. That changed

T.J.: 01:17:08

And it it was the brokenness within and without

Jill: 01:17:14

Yeah.

T.J.: 01:17:15

That plunged you into that trust.

Jill: 01:17:18

Yes. Mhmm. And and the other things that, I I think I think you started down this path because you asked me, am I healthy now? But

T.J.: 01:17:29

Mhmm.

Jill: 01:17:30

There were a lot of things that I had to, that I discovered about myself. I had not set good boundaries for myself personally and professionally. I did a lot of work on boundaries and understanding boundaries and, developing those. And I think along with that, I read the book, The Emotionally Healthy Leader, at the same time that I read the book on boundaries. Both of those together mhmm, and discovering the Enneagram, it was kind of like the trifecta of

T.J.: 01:18:12

This was a you were redoing yeah. You were rediscovering Jill all over again.

Jill: 01:18:19

Yeah. And those are the things that I those were the areas where I really felt that helped me, become more healthy.

T.J.: 01:18:33

Well, you listed a lot. You listed a lot of things that moved you into a state of, healthiness. And healthiness, I mean, that's such a general term. You know, it's like weather. It's one of the it could be a wide variety of things.

Jill: 01:18:52

Yeah. That's true. It can. And and it's, some days I do better than others, right, of being healthy in all of those areas. And, you know, we talk a lot.

Jill: 01:19:05

People talk a lot everywhere about, you know, balance in life. Balance to me, bound setting boundaries in my life have helped me understand how how to live a more balanced life.

T.J.: 01:19:27

Mhmm.

Jill: 01:19:27

If that makes sense. Do I always succeed at that? No. But I know where they are, and I know where to make the adjustments now.

T.J.: 01:19:38

One more question. Of course, if we keep talking, this question may spur other questions. But, who are some people who have certainly inspired your faith, deepened it, and encouraged you along the way to make you be the person that you are and the way that you practice your Christian faith?

Jill: 01:20:06

You know, it just occurred to me that I probably need to make that list because it would be a good exercise for me, and maybe, maybe I should reach out to those people, you know, at some point and let them know how they've, inspired me and encouraged me and supported me. But, you know, my parents first. Right? Because they established a a foundation and a faith practice, for me that continues that has continued on. And then for me, you know, when I look to my high school years and then my young adult years in my twenties, Frank Ward, Cumberland Presbyterian minister, long time, director of CPYC.

Jill: 01:21:00

You know, he he was there when I was a young person. But then he was the first person who, when I was a young adult, looked at me and saw something in me or some things in me that I could, you know, saw gifts in me that I could share with others or leadership abilities that I had that had been untapped at that point. And so he was the first person who, sort of discovered that in me and encouraged me when I didn't know what I was doing. Right?

T.J.: 01:21:41

Yeah. I do know. Yeah. There's something those encouragers. I think the Cumberland Presbyterian Church has a lot of encouragers.

T.J.: 01:21:51

Yeah. I know a lot.

Jill: 01:21:53

And people who give us the space to grow

T.J.: 01:21:57

Mhmm.

Jill: 01:21:57

And, try and fail and learn and try again.

T.J.: 01:22:05

Mhmm. And

Jill: 01:22:06

then I think beyond that, I mean, there's been lots of people, you know, in my home church that, of course, as a child, as a young person, and even as an adult, who've continued to support me, you know, without question and, be examples to me. But I think as an adult, then it became my, peers in ministry who have helped me learn about other people, about God, about myself. You know? And then of course, the people who, my ride or die people, through this whole, you know, that divorce journey for me. And then I'm gonna say recovery and rebirth and, you know, restoration.

Jill: 01:23:05

I have a you know, I have people on one hand who are, friends and ministers at the same time, colleagues in faith and friendship who never wavered. And it was a long journey, and they never got tired in that journey, of supporting me and loving me. And teaching me.

T.J.: 01:23:36

Tell me what a ride and die friend is. I'm I'm being serious.

Jill: 01:23:44

Oh, gosh. I'm gonna think of my friends that were that for me. And,

T.J.: 01:23:49

Well, just the meaning of it. You don't have to name. I mean

Jill: 01:23:53

Right. No. I'm just thinking of those qualities like they listened without interrupting. They felt my pain, which means they empathized with me. They didn't tell me what to do unless I asked their opinion.

Jill: 01:24:20

They were always available to me, and they loved me without without wavering. I mean, without question.

T.J.: 01:24:33

Certainly, don't give their names out. You just listed qualities and characteristics that everyone is looking for in a really close friend. Mhmm. So you don't wanna share those? Because No.

T.J.: 01:24:44

You wanna keep you wanna keep them. Yeah. Keep your ride and die friends to yourself.

Jill: 01:24:49

I'm sure I'm not their only friend. I'm sure they have others.

T.J.: 01:24:56

I'm glad that we are finally able to connect, to be able to hear about your faith and your journey. Mhmm. And my goodness, Jill, you have endured a lot apparently in the last 10 years or less or more in a lifetime. So thank you for opening up your life, sharing it, and I hope that others feel inspired and encouraged in a way that I have in hearing it. Thank you, Jill.

Jill: 01:25:28

Yep. Thank you.

T.J.: 01:25:33

Thank you for listening to The Cumberland Road. In closing, here are some words from the writer, Elaine Pagels. Most of us, sooner or later, find at critical points in our lives that we must strike out on our own to make a path where none exist. What I have come to love, in the wealth and diversity of our religious tradition, in the communities that sustain them, is that they offer the testimony of innumerable people to spiritual discovery. Thus, they encourage those who endeavor, in Jesus' words, to seek and you shall find.