Jim Fisk - Finding Purpose And Fulfillment
One: Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. This is Cumberland Road. I am your host, TJ Malinoski. Today's guest tells of a journey in search of purpose and fulfillment. He finds both in ministry and ministry and shares how a recent turn in faith has brought him out of semi retirement back into full time ministry. Reverend Jim Fisk joins me on this episode of Cumberland Road. Jim is the minister at the First Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Russellville, Arkansas. Enjoy our conversation as Jim shares his faith and foresees some exciting times for the church coming in the future.
T.J.:Jim Fisk, thank you for joining me today on the podcast. How are you?
Jim:Good morning, TJ. I am wonderful. I feel like I have arrived. I am on TJ Malinowski's Cumberland Road podcast. This is like, you know, I can die happy after this.
T.J.:Okay. You're really building this up. Jim, tell people who you are. Where where are you from? Where are living at?
T.J.:What are you doing?
Jim:TJ, I am my name is James Fisk. I've become known as Jim in most parts. I am pastor of the First Cumberland Presbyterian Church of Russellville in Central Arkansas. I've been here nearly three years. Pastored a little bit in Oklahoma, mostly in Arkansas.
Jim:I've been doing this twenty eight, twenty nine, thirty years. I had a couple of stops and sputters and, you know, laid out for a while, but I'm really enjoying my pastorate here in in Russellville. Good town, great church. It's that time of my life where just feel no pressure and everything I do is enjoyable and with purpose. I have a wife Linda.
Jim:I have a son Matt who is entering the ministry and is preaching in a little church down in Southwest Arkansas. Real proud of him. I have one granddaughter, and don't even get me started on that because you don't have enough time for me to talk about my granddaughter. But life is good. Life is good.
T.J.:Jim, have you always been in the full time pastorate, or have you had times in your life where you were bivocational?
Jim:Oh, bivocational, for most of my pastorate. I've had two, three, churches where I was able to, to be, sustained, through the church. And, and I like I like having done both. I can appreciate people who have to get up in the morning and go to work at 07:00. I can appreciate people, who support their minister through their work.
Jim:And, so having been on both sides of it, it's I'm glad it did. It was it was good experiences. And I I was in the ministry, you know, when people couldn't afford to pay attention, let alone pay their pastor. You know, you just will work for peanuts for the minimum. They were doing the best they could, and I was having to do the best I could with what they paid me.
Jim:And there were moments where, you know, it's just, God, you got to take over because I can't. So it's looking back at everything, it's like, yeah, I would do all over again just the way I did it. Having to answer your question a little better, am now full time pastor here and that enables me to do some things after the pandemic is helping, slowing maybe a little. That helps me to do some things I would not be able to do.
T.J.:Well, Jim, I'd like to ask you to share a meaningful experience that you've had with God, and that can be an early encounter or something more recent.
Jim:TJ, I was 30 when I began that decision whether to go into the ministry or not. And when they said and say it was it's that fighting the call, I did that. I made a list, a long list so that God could not misinterpret or and God could agree that I couldn't go in the ministry because here's the list and even God would say, wow, Jim, we just can't do this, you know. And so I love my list. However he began to take things off and take things off and I was down to the end of my list, and it's like, this is real serious.
Jim:God is going to call me, and I don't know that I'm ready, and I don't know. It's like I need something like a push, if that's what I'm supposed to do. It's like that last thing. Give me a push, God. Well, now let me switch.
Jim:When I was a little kid, my father's mother and father were known to me as Ma and Pa. We would go over to Ma and Pa's house and Pa had a single shot, 12 gauge shotgun over the door of his living room. And as you left, that was the last thing you saw. And as you said in the living room, you could just as a little kid, as a boy, you could you knew the shotgun had been taken to the civil war cowboys and Indians had used that shotgun. It was, I've been up San Juan Hill.
Jim:It's like that shotgun was the ultimate for a little boy and I wanted that shotgun. I was not about to say to Paul when you die, can I have your shotgun? However, when Paul died, I thought I'm the most obvious person to get the shotgun. I want that shotgun. And so a few days after the funeral ma came driving up to the house.
Jim:I saw her get out of the truck and she wasn't carrying the shotgun. Well, that's okay. You know, I can go pick it up later because I'm going to get this shotgun. I have to. It's like I want my paw's shotgun.
Jim:And she had a sack. And so she came in the house. She said, honey, your paw wanted you to have this and I opened it up and it was my paw's bible. And she said, he always thought you'd be a minister. It's like, oh, oh, forget the shotgun.
Jim:This is this was the ultimate. And it was like, it was the last thing on my list. It was the push I needed. I didn't get the shotgun so I could get the Bible and I still have that Bible today. I don't use it anymore, but just kind of a reminder that, you know, he's he believed in me.
Jim:And so, he joined several other people who also believed in me. So one of the reasons I'm sitting here is because I didn't get a shotgun, you know.
T.J.:So the ministry is actually a second career for you.
Jim:Yes. You could have set your calendar by me. Every two years, I would switch jobs. I would start a, not a new job, but a new career, a new, totally new profession. I would do something for two years.
Jim:I finally would get to where I was making a little money and then I quit. And I started another career at the very bottom, you know, scrambling, trying to scratch my way up to getting a little more money. And then two years later I would quit. And I look back at that and it's like, I was looking for a purpose. And I hadn't, of course, I had no idea that the ministry had never entered my mind, but I was looking for purpose, something that would give me fulfillment.
Jim:And when I finally got into ministry, this is it. So it's my literally changed my life, but changed my career and everything about me.
T.J.:And so receiving that Bible was that push that that you were, needing to make this, step into the ministry?
Jim:Yeah. Yeah. It was a it's a little bible. He's made a few marks in it, and I can imagine this. I look at it, it's like, you probably meant this, probably meant that.
Jim:It's just I guess it's just something from Paul. And I'll think about and he had never mentioned that to me in ministry or anything like that. But it was after the fact that he was gone, like his last statement to me was through them all and with this bible. Son, I believe you that, you know, you can do this.
T.J.:Isn't it jarring to sometimes be the last to know? You know, people see and saw something in you, Jim, that maybe you didn't see in yourself. Yeah. And then to get that affirmation, at times, it's almost embarrassing. You know?
T.J.:It's kinda like, I don't know, having having a long hair hanging out of your ear or, you know, and in my case, where I've missed a whole patch on my bald head where I cut it and it's just hanging out there. Yeah. You know, it's it's obvious to everybody else, but not always obvious to to to us, to to me.
Jim:Well, you you may or may not disagree. I hope you'll just I hope you'll agree with me and and you'll go far in life if you always agree with me. But a calling is like, just to see something and, you know, I mean, there's no doubt, you know, that's something that you should be involved in. However, a spiritual calling for me is I can see something ministry that I feel I might be able to do and should be involved in. However, I think there should be more than just my word.
Jim:There should be other people saying, I agree that you very well could be called. And that could be a committee on ministry. That could be a T. J. Malinowski.
Jim:It could be my paw who say, yeah, I believe that you could be called. And so from that agreement from my pa who had gone on, I still had that affirmation that, yeah, you could very well be called.
T.J.:What other people have had a good impact on on your journey of faith?
Jim:My my son, believe it or not, and I have no problem with with saying, when I started out in ministry, I did not know everything I thought I did. I was pretty sure I knew everything, but I learned over time. I don't know everything and this is a process and I'm learning as I go. And my son has taught me a lot. He, as I said, is entering the ministry, but he was in Iraq in a battle that was so significant that Martha Raditz, the foreign correspondent on ABC News, you probably have seen her.
Jim:She is just so awesome. She wrote a book about, my son and his his squad, that was in a in a firefight that was, well, it took nine people were killed trying to get my son and his squad out of this dead in LA. And he told me about, I think that one of the things I wanted to do for my son as a father, it was like would be the ultimate when I die, show my son how to die so that there's no fear that there's no anguish, that, it's a passing over. And I thought, what? What?
Jim:Wouldn't that be something if I can do that? And so my whole life, or rather not a lot of my life was leaning toward, I've got to help my son die. I've to help my son, you know, so you wouldn't be afraid. Well, after the battle that he was in, we talked about it and, I said, you know, son, one of the things I always want to do is to help you die. He said that I've been in battle.
Jim:I'm not afraid of death anymore. And you can't you can't teach me anything about dying because I I've been there. You know, he said, knew I was dead. And so he accepted that. And now he lives his life out of no fear.
Jim:You he's been in war. There's nothing else he has to fear.
T.J.:That that definitely is a great impact on on anyone's journey of faith. Speaking of our faith, Jim, how has your faith in Jesus Christ before you entered the ministry and now in the ministry today? How does it give you purpose?
Jim:When I was a a young man, John Kennedy said to us all, you know, ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country. I think I, as a teenager in my generation, we ask ourselves that a lot. I don't know that that necessarily has anything to do with my having to have purpose and my gaining purpose through ministry. I think there's something in me that there has to be a reason to do this. I was constantly asking my mother when she would correct me or discipline me or make me do something.
Jim:Why? Why? And I think maybe I grew up like that is like, why am I doing this? What is the purpose of this? And I saw in ministry something bigger than me and my paw and my son, my family.
Jim:I see something that's, I have to share that. Don't know even though I can explain why I have to share what I feel, what I know, what I've seen, what I see. It's just I don't know, I it gives me a reason for living. I don't know. I'm I try not to be selfish, but, and I don't wanna be selfish with my living.
Jim:I would like for my life to reflect Jesus and my faith. And so I guess that's it.
T.J.:Okay. Alright. Thank you, Jim. I wanna ask you as well in terms of your faith in Christ. What is it about that relationship that just keeps you coming back and identifying with Christianity, identifying with god, identifying with Jesus Christ, and the holy spirit.
T.J.:We'll put the whole trinity in there. But what is it that just keeps you coming back and identifying with this Christian faith?
Jim:I keep seeing signs and evidence, signs and wonders as the bible said. I keep seeing things that are that are so remarkable that couldn't have been happenstance, that couldn't have been luck or coincidence. I keep seeing God moving and doing things and in through people. There's a great contemporary worship song that says God loves people more than anything. And I came to understand that God's greatest creation was people.
Jim:And so I can celebrate that with him and enjoy God's people with him. There are people that I don't like and you may find this hard to believe but there are people who do not like me. That astounds me, just can't believe. But it happens and so I understand that not everybody likes me and I don't have to like everyone but I do have to love everyone. And so, I can see a reason, yeah, a reason for people's existence.
Jim:Maybe a reason that God put them here in the first place. And I can, I can appreciate that with God? And I keep seeing God do things that are miracles. And it's just, it's like, do it again, you know, show me that again, God, or, you know, I know you can do everything. My prayer is, but would you?
Jim:And God does. God does not do everything that I asked or thankfully, but he I think he helps me to to keep watching to him, to be attentive around me and and things that are going on. Did God do that? Well, probably so.
T.J.:Well, Jim, this next question is kind of tied in to to the one I just asked you is where are you seeing God working in your life today? And I ask that question with most of the guests, and the reason for that is oftentimes when we share experiences of our faith, we end up going back in time. And we share significant journeys and pieces of our faith journey. But in terms of sharing it with someone else who is struggling, who has pain, who is suffering, who is experiencing loss, Oftentimes, we are searching for answers in the here and now and searching for hope and direction in the here and now and so, I think for us as Christians and as Cumberland Presbyterians, we should always reflect on where we see god working in our own life today. So I pose that question to you, Jim.
Jim:I'd say I've been, here at this church, two years, nearly three years now, TJ, and and it's probably I can't put a value on it or I can't rate it fairly with other churches. But I would say it's one of the greatest churches and experience with the church that I've had. And it wasn't supposed to happen. It wasn't designed by me to happen because I moved here from Northwest Arkansas, the Rogers Bentonville, Fayetteville, Springdale quarter, where there is so much energy. There's so many things happening.
Jim:And I went up there to retire. I'd been out the ministry three years. That area is growing so much and there's so many things are being provided for the citizens in that area. There were just so many things for an old guy like me even to do and what life was fun. It was wonderful.
Jim:Just do kayaking and bicycling and hiking, photography. I mean, it's just like I have every day was a problem, like, much fun and what fun things am I going to do today? And that was, that was a great problem to have. And I was just really enjoying life. And a guy from this church called right in the middle of my fun said, would you mind coming down for a Sunday?
Jim:I said, yes, that'd be, that'd be great. Good chance to get out of town, you know, do a little travel, see some new people. So yeah, we came down for Sunday and before I left, would you mind coming back in a couple of weeks? Well, sure. I can do that.
Jim:And then the next time is like, would you mind like four straight weeks? Okay, sure. And then I began to see this thing this, I don't know, you know, where we're going with this gun And, you know, I've been called out of retirement and so that's not what God had in plan because I paid my dues. I've done my work. I've been good for God and served him well.
Jim:And, you know, I should be able to retire and play. And now he's saying, no, let's do some more. So, I became the interim here and I had no intention of going back to church full time because I'm too old. You know, I already made my plans retirement and so, but as it turned out then, God has put me back in the saddle, so to speak. And I think that's that's why I feel the pressure.
Jim:This is, this is what I'm doing and this is where I am. And it's just, I don't, I, it's been another growth. I mentioned earlier about life being a process. This is a part of that process of growing even after I thought I was full grown. Know what I'm saying?
Jim:It's just, that there was some more to be added on to my life or or and purpose.
T.J.:So what is it like to have to have that reorientation, that recalibration because you had plans, you sort of have a goal, you were living in another part of the state, and then you're getting this pull and this draw to do something that you're familiar with, but you had plans to kind of not do it on a regular basis in terms of ministry.
Jim:Well, that's a good question, TJ, and you can't you can't fire me, and the church can't fire me for saying anything, anything I want to say. And I have something to say about that. In earlier in my ministry, there were things that I could not say things I could not do that I felt like were biblical. I'm talking about this is not gym stuff. This is Bible stuff.
Jim:And I couldn't say those things from the pulpit because that's my job. That's my livelihood. It's not just me. It's my wife is my child. That depends upon me keeping that not just that church, but if you'll pardon me, that income.
Jim:And so I felt like at times that I was prostituting myself because I was preaching and I wasn't being true to the calling because if I said what I felt like I needed to say, I'd be fired. So there was that that, dichotomy of, you know, do I say exactly what I think God wants me to say and get fired or and I'm not and there may be I'm sure I know there are people listening. He may even blew that one. He should have went ahead and said what God said he's supposed to be saying. Well, okay, pal, you can say that you can also be fired and have no voice or no audience.
Jim:And so, you know, which do you do? Most ministers, especially today, with all the social issues we're facing, most ministers have to walk a tight line of I can say this, but I can't say that, which is horrible. It's horrible. And I'm saying it's horrible. However you can say all those things but you're saying it to yourself eventually because nobody's going listen to you.
Jim:Nobody wants to listen to you or are you going to have a half the audience or you're only going to get those people who believe just like you. Those are not the people you want to speak to. So, you know, how do you how do you do that? How do you speak? There are people who can speak eloquently and debate very well.
Jim:I'm not one of those people and maybe most ministers are not that sort of person where you can say the truth and make people like the truth, whether they really like it or not, you know, so. This has been a preacher answer to your question is like, could have answered that in fifteen seconds, but I've taken twelve minutes to answer. So, what I'm doing now is because I was playing because I was out of retirement. I can say what I want to say. You can fire me and like, oh, no, don't fire me, rare fox.
Jim:You know, don't throw me back in that briar patch because I was retired. I was playing. If you want to fire me, I'll go back to playing. It makes it it takes the pressure off of me. So what's the what's the other ministers?
Jim:You know, how do they resolve that issue? I have no idea. They haven't asked me. And if they asked me, I couldn't tell them. I don't know.
Jim:But that's I think that's maybe one of the problems of our church and one of the problems in ministry is how do you say what you feel like God wants you to say and and be able to say that comfortably, you know?
T.J.:It's a conversation that we are not having among ministers and and everyone. It it because it's a real struggle. True. You'll face it in your ministry and and maybe even multiple times and it's a struggle. I struggled with it.
T.J.:I've the first encounter, I remember being so frustrated because I was like, holy cow, this this ministry thing reminds me of high school like a popularity contest And it really frustrated me because it was like, hey. If everybody likes you, things are great. If they don't, then, I mean, you can be let go or ostracized or, you know, whatever. And and it shouldn't be that way, but it's kinda like this little dirty secret this little dirty secret that that ministers aren't we're we're not having that conversation, but everybody has had to face or will face or will face again if I say this, it can affect my livelihood. And Sure.
T.J.:Sure. And or if I believe this or if I preach this or if I act this particular way conduct myself or whatever the whatever it may be and there have been a lot who have who have subverted the gospel for the sake of livelihood and.
Jim:Sure.
T.J.:It's a tough, tough place to be. I don't have an easy answer or easy response. I think the first step is to actually acknowledge that this occurs and to have those conversations with the congregations and the people that we serve with and going, if I am to preach from the studies and the preparations that I've had, it isn't always going to be pleasant and you might not like it. What how do we how do we handle that as a session, as a congregation, and just as ministers?
Jim:I don't
T.J.:I don't remember what my original question was, Jim.
Jim:I don't know. It's your your old fault for inviting me over here. So I I have no pressure on me. So I think you should've done this.
T.J.:I know what I I was asking you about, how what is it like to reorient, your life in terms of you were in retirement or semi retirement and then to be able to face being pulled and drawn back into really full time ministry and what is that like?
Jim:Yes, it's that part of that growth process, and and also when I thought I no longer had to have that sense of purpose to have a happy life. It's giving me that again, plus some. And so I I have that also. It it provides me with connection with more people that I would not have had while I was playing and doing nothing. And there's always, like the next person you meet very well could be your friend, very well could be someone that you can share ministry with.
Jim:It's always like there's always the excitement of oh, boy, I get to meet more people or I get to be around more people or develop a greater relationship with people. And that everything for us as social beings revolves around people.
T.J.:Well, the last year, year and a half has been pretty interesting in terms of change and and recalibrating and and just for the entire world and for for us as human beings and inhabitants of this world. One of the challenging questions is is asking where is god in the midst of of 2020 and 2021. So I pose that question to you, Jim. Where do you see god working in the world today?
Jim:Jesus said, Jesus said that I've come to not to unite you, but I've come to divide you. And I had to read that again. Are you sure that's what you read? Are you sure Jesus could have said that? But he came not to unite us, but to divide us.
Jim:It is not Jesus' will that our churches be divided. It's not God's will that our churches have conflict or strive or be divided in that sense. What Jesus was saying is, I've come not to you not you, but to divide you. There is a there's a line that's more and more evident between that which is good and that which is equal. We are called to decide not in the future but more immediately, we're called to decide which side are you going to be on?
Jim:Are you going be on the good side? Are you going to be on the evil side? Are you going be on the light side or the dark side? I think more and more as we see evidence of especially watching our news on television and Facebook, you know, CNN, Fox, we see more and more evil. And it's not just because there's more cameras out there and because there's more cell phone, because we have more access to the media and what's going on in the world.
Jim:That's not it's because the world is a more evil place. And we're being called as Christians to decide, you know, which one are you going to participate in? Which one are you going to support? Which side are you going to be on? I think it's more and more necessary for we as Christians to to make it known that we're on the side of good.
Jim:We're on the side of light, on the side of God, and we have to we're making that that is not to say, and I want everybody to hear me. This is not to say that you have to stand out on the street corner with a four by eight sign saying repent for the end is near or anything like that. I'm just saying that there's a way that we can make us make it known to our sphere of influence. So people around us that I stand for Jesus. I'm on I'm on God's side and we believe in God and what God is doing in this evil world.
Jim:Because we see so much meanness does not mean that God is still not with us. God is even more with us now. I'm saying, you know, there's another side, there's another way, there's a better way. I think one of the one of things that I want to do is to, to encourage people, You you don't have to participate in that meanness. It's just like this is we live in a ridiculous world with more more and more more now.
Jim:So I can old preacher more and more. We just see evidence of mean, just mean for no apparent reason. And, you know, I've lived long enough now that I've seen stuff I never thought I would have seen before. I am not saying that this is the worst generation ever. They said that about my generation and the one before me and the one before me and, I'm just saying we just live in a mean world and, so so we're called to call to say, let us help.
Jim:Let us show you God.
T.J.:So where is God in the midst of that meanness, that evil that you have described and mentioned?
Jim:God is in people. The first place we're going to see God is through people. And, we still see wonderful souls, people who have changed their life through Jesus Christ. And, they're making it evident that, there's still goodness in the world. And there is no thing called goodness, except that it lives in people and even evil people can be good.
Jim:But there are people in this world who take Jesus with them and who model that and it's and it's evident. And it's that Jesus saying, I didn't come to you, not you, I came to divide you. It's so evident that there's mean people. And at the same time, it's just as evident that, wow, there are some people who have Jesus and it's just obvious. So God is in people and we're seeing we're seeing more and more of the two sides.
Jim:And, you know, I think we've seen we're seeing more goodness in people than we've ever seen awful. And then we've seen more evil in people. And so is that those two divisions and visions are more and more and more evident. That was a good preacher answer. Thought we should take up an offering after that if you want to.
T.J.:Well, since we've been talking about good and evil, Jim, what are your ideas and your hopes and your dreams for the church?
Jim:Oh, good one. TJ, I was thinking the other day, I wished kinda no. I started to say, I wish I had twenty more years of ministry in me. I don't have, but I guess really I don't. I had a shot at it and I took my shot and taking my shot.
Jim:And so, we live in a world right now that is the most exciting time to be a minister, maybe since the late sixties. I remember the heroes of the faith, old guys older than me who were ministers back in the sixties during the civil rights movement. And they were talking about literally being beaten, being shunned by being fired from the churches. And I think to myself when I hear all those stories, golly, what would I have done? And I want to think, you know, I'd have been right up front or I'd been leading the charge.
Jim:I've been helping or making it known that change is needed. You know, I would never have been ashamed of what I did back in those days. I've always done the right thing. And I didn't have that. However, today is my opportunity.
Jim:Opportunity for other ministers in thirty years, people will look back and say, wow, you were a minister back in 2021. What was that like? Who did you stand for? What did you stand for? What did you do?
Jim:What risks did you take? What challenges were there? What danger was was there for you? So we live in the most exciting time since I've known to be in the ministry And not just pulpit ministry, but ministries that we all have every person has. And so I'm not saying, you know, that you have to go out and make a stand on every issue and fight for every single thing.
Jim:But there are moments provided for us like never before, when we have a chance to minister, to do good, to show Jesus.
T.J.:Would you like to see the church in, let's say, the next five to ten years?
Jim:Boy, and that's the I feel another part of it also to you is just the fact that when the Southern Baptist Church is losing membership, there's something wrong with what we're doing. I'm not advocating that we have to throw everything out and start brand new as a church and the way we worship, the way we minister and evangelize. But I'm saying apparently it would not hurt if we could change something, if we could do something better to reach those people that we're not reaching. I think the challenges for us, people who are creative, people who are imaginative, people who willing to take a risk to go and try something different. Again, not throwing out everything, but my goodness, if we're reaching people, if the southern battle, the southern baptist can't get it done, come to the Presbyterian probably going to have some problems getting it done.
Jim:Also, we are a bunch of overachievers as Cumberland Presbyterians, and I don't know why we can't make that change or do things differently or meet the challenge that in at least five years or sooner do something, you know, that that would help us. Don't. Well, I wish I knew all the answers. I wish I wish I was 30 again, and then I would have all the answers.
T.J.:But you'd be a different person, and you'd have a different perspective on the world.
Jim:I would say that I have a need to go back and apologize to everybody who heard me preach thirty years ago. It's like, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry.
T.J.:Well, Jim, you made reference to, you know, making a change and sort of influencing maybe the world society that we are part of. In terms of the church, what changes do you think small or great that we could make that would, build the kingdom in the next five to ten years?
Jim:Boy, I can't tell you all of this, all my answers because I'm gonna put it in a book and I'm gonna sell it. I'm gonna make millions of dollars because I know every single thing we're here we ought to do. Right? Well, I don't ever, everything has to involve people. And I've said that several things, and I think everybody's got the idea.
Jim:Okay. Okay. Okay. It has to be involving people, but I think relationships, TJ Malinowski came to Hot Springs, Arkansas back in probably ten years ago and gave a presentation on evangelism. Now, at that point I knew evangelism.
Jim:I was not I did not have the gift of evangelism nor did anybody in the church that I pastored have the gift of evangelism because we couldn't do that. We weren't doing that. And evangelism means as everybody at that point time knew you go to doors of total strangers, you knock on their door when they come to the door, you say, if you were to die tonight, do you know where you would spend eternity? Every time we got the door slammed in our face, we were cussed out, we were chewed out, we were screamed, we were ignored. And so we said to ourselves, ah, I don't have the gift of evangelism, so we'll let somebody else do that.
Jim:When TJ Malinowski came to Hot Springs, he said evangelism is about people, having relationships with people. And he said even, and I quote, I remember well when you did this, he said, you go to Walmart, checker and the next time you go to Walmart, which is going to be the next day, you would go to that same clerk and say, how's it going? How are you doing? Every time that you go, go to that same clerk, develop a relationship, even with the clerk, just for a moment. You can speak Jesus, you can show Jesus.
Jim:And you said that person, you may not lead to Christ, but later on, because of the seed that you planted that she may or he may very well come to know Jesus because of something that you did. That's evangelism. Just showing Jesus to people. And I thought, oh my goodness, where have you been, TJ? And so we were able to do that, change my ministry, change my whole focus.
Jim:Even now it's like I still operate under the fact that you know when I'm when I'm in a relationship with my neighbor, if I can be nice to my neighbor, if I can do something for them, if I can just say the word Jesus, if I can show them Jesus in me, man, I'm evangelizing. And that's, that's the coolest thing ever. It's, it's not about raising people and, you know, preparing to get punched. It's about just being Jesus to people, you know?
T.J.:It well, first of all, thank you. Ten years ago was a long time ago. Oh, it it is true. Yeah. Relationships and what comes from that is trust.
T.J.:And trust can be built. It takes a long time to trust a neighbor or an acquaintance. But if we can if we can express our faith, I think in natural, authentic ways without weapons, metaphorical or real, I think we can change the perception that people often have in terms of Christians and God and what that relationship can look like. And it takes a lot of pressure off of us in terms of sort of reshaping what evangelism is, is that limited narrow view of going door to door. That's really that's evangelism for your local church, but that's not really evangelism in terms of relationship with God.
T.J.:Those become church invites. Come to Yeah. Such and such church so you can learn more about God, containing God in that specific little area, specific time during the week. And God's much bigger than that. Can't be contained as much as we would like.
Jim:Mhmm. Yeah. Definitely. You could go to people's house and you can knock on their door and you can ask them that question. They're not going to talk to you.
Jim:Yeah. One out of 500 and go ahead and do that if you feel like that's what you have to do. But I'm saying to you, nobody will listen to you. And so what was the point of your having done that? You know, because that's why we've always done it.
Jim:And so we have to do it that way. We'll do it that way. And nobody listens. However, know somebody's yard and say, you know, Jesus gave me this mower. I just want to mow your yard for you because he gave me a mower.
Jim:Here's some chocolate chip cookies. How about would you like to sit down and I just want some cookies so badly and let's just share our cookies and how's how's it going? There are people in your life. I think you also want in that same similar TJ, who said there are people in your life who will look at you and they will say, how are you doing? But there are people in your life who will look you in the eye and they'll hold your hand or they'll put their hand on their shoulder.
Jim:And when they ask how you're doing, they really want to know. And there are moments in our life where those people will be there and we can ask them not just how you're doing, but really how are you doing. You know, it's just it's relationships. So
T.J.:There is. It's kinda like there's a difference between hearing and listening. You know, you can hear, you know, a sound or hear somebody speaking, but there's a difference between actually listening and devoting your whole attention. Sure. And it is the same with, you know, asking how someone really is.
T.J.:The southern way is that automatically comes out of your mouth. How are you? How are you doing? Mhmm. But but there's a we can take that to another level of, I really do want to know because I wanna be a part of your life.
Jim:Sure. Sure.
T.J.:But again, that's that relationship building. Well, Jim, how can we continue to follow you on your faith journey?
Jim:You know, I have I I for some time I thought the worst thing that ever happened to the world was Walmart and but I find myself going there every day and Walmart Walmart, it was good to us and good for us during the pandemic. And so I can't totally, do Walmart to hell. Also, Facebook, I have railed against it, ridiculous and crazy. But we have used Facebook in such a way, T. J, that I cannot imagine how wonderful it is and what we could do through broadcasting our services through Facebook live.
Jim:I used to think that I was a little creative, but I'm frustrated in knowing that each week, 125 people will listen to us on Facebook and we aren't doing anything except providing worship for them. Now that's a good thing, but maybe there's more, but I don't know how to I don't know how to give them more. And so, certainly now that we have found the joy of being on Facebook live with our worship services, I can't quit that. Oh my goodness. That's been so good just knowing that we're touching 125 people a week, you know, that that are not in house, that are not in our sanctuary.
Jim:And so it's like, woah. So, yeah, please first coming in person for Presbyterian Church of Russellville and check us out, look us up. We're because we're going to be on there every Sunday as well as live services. And there is no substitute for a hug, a handshake, howdy how y'all doing sort of sort of thing. And so we look we love we love our body and but we also love those people who become our Facebook body and well,
T.J.:Jim, I appreciate your sacrifice of your time today and and sharing with me and sharing your faith journey.
Jim:Thank you, friend. It's been a joy, TJ. I I've I've been a fan of yours ever since. You changed a lot with the what evangelism really is, and, thank you for what you do in our denomination. I can't imagine you not being there, and and I'm I'm glad you are.
Jim:Thank you for your ministry.
T.J.:Well, thank you, Jim. And just full disclosure, I didn't know I had that impact on you. It will look like I framed all of this up. That's but for our listeners, I really didn't know. But, Jim, thank you.
T.J.:Thank you for your kind words, and thank you for your thoughts.
Jim:I'm just reading I'm just reading what you told me to read, Jim.
T.J.:And everyone love you. And everyone, thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with us on our next journey down Cumberland Road.
