Joe Butler - Ears Willing To Listen & Hearts Willing To Love
You are listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. Reverend doctor Joe Butler is the General Assembly vice moderator of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. He has served in the denomination for over 50 years as a pastor, Synod moderator, and presbytery stated clerk. He has taught at Bethel University, the program of alternate studies, and has served as the president of the board of trustees for Memphis Theological Seminary. Joe shares his call into ministry. He talks about evangelism and the beauty of small church faith conversation with Joe Butler.
T.J.:Joe, you have been vice moderator of the Cumberland Presbyterian General Assembly for 4 months. What has been your greatest surprise? What's been your greatest discovery in this role?
Joe:Well, let me begin by sharing with you, a little background.
T.J.:Okay.
Joe:It was on June 12th that I retired from my full time pastoring. I'm still preaching at a little church in Belvidere, Tennessee. But, I retired then and went to the general assembly on the 19th June, as a commissioner from Murfreesboro Presbytery. I've been to assembly probably 8 different times through the years as commissioner. And when I arrived at the assembly, Virginia Espinosa from Choctaw Presbytery, who's a dear friend, caught me in the hallway and said, Joe, we don't have a a nominee for vice moderator.
Joe:Would you serve? Had it ever
T.J.:had it ever crossed your mind before? I mean, before arrival?
Joe:No. Not at all. And I looked at her and I said, Virginia, I just retired from ministry, pastoring. I said, I didn't come out here looking for a job. And I said, buddy, if you feel led by God's spirit to say something, you know, I'll do what I can.
Joe:Turns around that, she did nominate me and, of course, I was elected as the vice moderator. And I I guess in the 4 years that I've served, I visited several different presbyteries already, with Mike. One of the things that surprised me is the, the church itself. The the presbyteries, they're all solid as far as, finances, things of that nature. But the thing that has surprised me is the spiritual nature of our church.
Joe:I don't know whether the pandemic has caused it or what, but there doesn't seem to be the close knit fellowship that we once had. It's kind of a standoffish type thing. You know, I'm afraid to get close to you, if you will, that kind of thing. And I think that has affected a lot of the evangelistic thrust of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church as well. And it may not just be the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Joe:It may be true of churches all around the world. Our desire to to really share the gospel of Jesus Christ, the the good news, to a world that needs to hear it more than anything else at this time. So that's probably the one thing that has surprised me is that financially, we're strong. Structurally, I think we're strong, but spiritually, I think we're we're searching still, if that makes any sense to you.
T.J.:Yeah. I think there's a relational aspect of, we have to get to know one another again, Yeah. At least from the presbyteryal point of view because
Joe:Exactly.
T.J.:You know, presbyteries didn't meet or they met differently. You weren't sharing events. So, yeah. It's almost a restart
Joe:in Exactly.
T.J.:In getting getting acquainted and getting involved in in other people's lives beyond just reading about it in social media.
Joe:Right. Right. I think you're so so right. You know, I come from a pastor's background. And as a pastor, one of my desires was be with people.
Joe:And, you know, the last two and a half years or so, it's been difficult. And I think that has had an effect on evangelistic thrust of our church, a desire for people to see others come to know Jesus Christ as savior in their life. You know, we've kinda drawn into a little shell, if you will.
T.J.:Yeah. I'm wondering if we're learning how to converse again to actually have dialogue and conversation.
Joe:I think I think you're probably right. We're we're beginning to get that process back. Number of the presbyteries when I attended, said this is the first time we've had a face to face presbytery now in over a year. They've been doing Zoom, things like that. How do you build fellowship when you're sitting here looking at a screen?
T.J.:Right. You know?
Joe:I guess, Cumberland Presbyterians are touchy feely people. I hope we are anyway.
T.J.:Yeah. And I've also observed in my travels, when we gather in groups like a presbytery meeting or any judicatory, because business has been conducted, you know, minimally, when we are gathering, it really is a lot of catch up, which also hinders that that fellowship, hinders the dialogue, hinders the conversation because you do still have that kind of the distant, how do we interact with each other physically. But then it's like, you know, we've we have a lot to cover. We have a lot to to review. We have a lot to vote on.
T.J.:And, so you're right. Maybe maybe this will take months or years to
Joe:I believe you're right.
T.J.:Connect. Yeah.
Joe:I believe you're right. It's just gonna take us time. It's kinda like learning to walk again, after you've had a serious injury to a leg or something. It just takes time to get that strength built back and get the momentum going again.
T.J.:There also has to be that desire. We have to be intentional about it as well. And Yes, sir. And, that has to be reciprocated.
Joe:Exactly. Exactly. You know, and that's that's one of the things that Mike and I have talked about on a number of occasions and shared with on a number of occasions is that, as Cumberland Presbyterians, we we started in very stressful times, back in 18/10. And we've gone through a lot of stress, a lot of, trials through the years. Mhmm.
Joe:But we're praying and hoping that, somehow or another, we'll remember those words of Judge Fusil when he said somewhere in the sunlight of God's love, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church will live on. That we'll once again learn to work together, and share together, grow together, and minister together. You know?
T.J.:Well, the beautiful thing about it is we have no choice. We have to work together. Yeah. That's true. Not only are we called to do so, but well, we have to in the form of a polity and government that we have.
Joe:Right. And, you know, if we if we can't relearn that, I'm reminded of the words of a great theologian who said we're just 1 generation from extinction. Mhmm. You know? And that's fearful.
Joe:That's frightening to me when I stop and think about it.
T.J.:What other discoveries being 4 months in as vice moderator, besides the surprise of just being in the role? Yeah. I mean, if you arrived in General Assembly back in the summer and didn't really have this in mind, beyond that, what other discoveries have you made?
Joe:I guess, one of the things that I've learned, is that there is still that deep seated love for one another, even though we may have differences of opinions Mhmm. That we can disagree, but agree to disagree and move forward. Visiting in Choctaw Presbytery, marvelous experience. It's a very hard presbytery to serve in because it's very small.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joe:They have many needs there. One of their needs is they need a new mower for the cramp ground. So if anybody out there has a mower that they can give to them, I I really would appreciate that. Alright. But in sharing with them the I guess you would say the, closeness of, fellowship, I felt very welcomed in their community, and not just because I was, in a role of vice moderator, as a human being, to sit down and eat bread and, break bread and eat a meal with them, and just talk with them over over the table in fellowship.
Joe:Here you had about 6 delegates at the presbytery. There was maybe 35 there. Everybody was participating. It doesn't matter whether they were a delegate or not. They were all discussing together.
Joe:And, you know, that to me is the beauty of of our our church is that, yeah, we're a representative government, but we all have a responsibility, to to share in that government in some way. Whether it be to talk to those who are representing us or or just going and sharing our voice, at at those meetings and and at the time that we are together, our concerns. And I think that's that's surprised me in a way because other presbyteries, that I've been to, it was where, you know, you were a delegate or not, and you had to have permission to speak. But in Choctaw, everybody was talking. Everybody was sharing.
Joe:And I think that's important as a church for us to remember. The little church that I pastor at Belvedere, we've got 5 people in the church, 2 elders. When do we meet the session meeting? Well, it's every Sunday we gather, and everybody's there together. We discuss all the issues together, and we make those decisions.
Joe:So, that kind of fellowship, that kind of camaraderie, I wish we could see it once again grow within our church. I don't know whether that all makes sense to you or not, but, I just it it's more of a pastoral function, I guess, you would
T.J.:say. Yeah. There's, you haven't experienced hospitality until you've experienced Choctaw hospitality. And at the same time
Joe:Yes, yes, yes.
T.J.:At the same time, you're right. It becomes it becomes, the presbytery becomes a committee at large.
Joe:Exactly.
T.J.:So every everyone's put to work.
Joe:Yeah. Yep. That's true. That's true.
T.J.:Joe, did you grow up in a Christian church? How did you come to the faith?
Joe:I grew up in Christian church. My parents took me from the time I was just a baby all the way in at the church. I I love to play baseball in the summer. Was in little league, but I remember Wednesday nights at practice, dad would take us off the field. We'd go to church in our uniforms.
Joe:That was it was just that important for us. It was at the age of 10 that I came to profess Christ as my savior. And then I turned around and, serve him in the church there as a young person. Different roles in the presbytery and what we used to call the CPYF. And we when I was about 16 years of age, I was at a camp, in Kentucky, and Terry Maynard, who was a dear, dear friend, was there.
Joe:And I just kept getting this weird sensation in my life that there's something that God wanted me to do. And one night, I I opened my Bible, and I was just reading. I just let it open up, and it was in Exodus, And god's call to Moses, to go and to lead the people out, and I didn't fully understand it. And I I went to Terry, and I said, Terry, help me understand this. What what's happening?
Joe:And he said, Joe, God's trying to say something to you. Just be open to what he's saying and listen to him. 2 years went by, and I was at, CPYC at Ferncliff, Arkansas. If you've ever been to that campground, there's a big lake there. And one evening, I'm sitting beside the lake and I let my Bible fall open again, and it fell open to that same passage in Exodus.
Joe:Wasn't an intentional thing. I just let it open up and that's where it was. And I read it again, and it is at that point, I said, Lord, I can't make any more excuses as Moses was doing. I said, if you want me to be a pastor, that's what I'll prepare to be. And, so I gave my my life to him to to move toward pastoring.
Joe:I didn't tell anybody about this experience. And I came home from church camp, and, I went to my grandmother, my mother's mother, and I called her Ma. And I said, Ma, I have something I need to tell you. She said, you don't have to tell me. I said, what do you mean?
Joe:She said, you're gonna be a pastor. I said, how do you know that? She said, I dreamed the other night, and it was the night that I made the commitment that she was having the dream. She said, I saw you sitting beside a lake, reading the scriptures, and you gave your heart to Christ to be a pastor. So that's what you're gonna be.
Joe:And I thought, lord, you've just confirmed what I've been struggling with. And I did. And, I served the church. My first pastorate was in, 1971, as a student pastor. So about 51 years, I had served, in some fashion.
Joe:I was ordained in 75. So, you know, you figure it's 46 years that I served actually, but you have to add 5 more years to that. So it makes it around 51 that I've been serving and preaching, in different ways.
T.J.:Joe, let let me ask you a question. So going back, you're around 18 years old. Right. And you have, you have a world of opportunity before you. What was it about the pastoral ministry, that attracted you, that called you?
Joe:I I I actually was preparing to be a dentist. In high school, I took 4 years of Latin just just so I could be prepared with Latin words, in the med in the medical field. I was the only 4th year Latin student in our high school. Anyway, I had to prepare my study in Latin with wanting to be a dentist. For some reason, the Lord had other plans for that.
Joe:Turns out the Latin helps me with my Greek that I had when I was in in college, and it helped me to have an appreciation for the ancient languages. I guess the one thing it scared me. You know, I I thought, you know, I've got my life planned out. That's where I wanna be. I wanna be a dentist.
Joe:Yeah. And, and I kept saying no. No. There's something else that you need to do. It's kinda like the apostle Paul on the road to Damascus.
Joe:He had plans. He knew what he was gonna do. And all of a sudden, God says to him, nope. That's not that's not the direction you're gonna go. Was he scared?
Joe:I'm sure he was. I'm sure he was shaking in his boots, not just because of the experience that day, but because of what the future was gonna hold. Mhmm. And and I really didn't know what the future was gonna hold for me, and my my relationship with God, and my relationship with people. Moses kept saying, I can't say these eloquent words, and I kept saying to God, I'm gonna be preaching to people old enough to be my grandparents.
Joe:I said, why are they gonna listen to me? You know, and, you know, he just kept coming back to that. And it seems like through the years, about every 7 to 8 years, I would reaffirm that call.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joe:And God would reaffirm it to me in some way. So that passage in Exodus is the one that that really has stuck with me all through these years that, you know, I'm scared. Yeah. But I have to take the hand of the Lord and and go with him, wherever he's leading me.
T.J.:Why your grandmother, why was she the first person that you were going to tell?
Joe:Okay. My grandmother and I were kind of, spirits in common, I guess you would say. Mhmm. She was the kind of person that, I I looked up to her spiritual direction and leadership. She was very common, sensed type person, depended very much on God, and the leadership of God.
Joe:She led prayer, intercessory prayer groups at the church for others. And just that my grandmother and I, we shared a lot in common. In fact, I was the only one with her the day that she passed away. And I was holding her hand as she left this world. I was singing, one of her songs that she loved was precious lord, take my hand.
Joe:Lead me on, and let me stand. It was just a commonality that we shared, and I thought, you know, before I tell anyone, I've gotta talk to my grandma. I've gotta talk to the one who gives me direction. And, she just affirmed it, straight up.
T.J.:You've spent the majority of your ministry with a focus on pastoral care for for those in the congregation and for those who have yet to come into faith.
Joe:Right.
T.J.:Why that area of ministry?
Joe:I guess, there was a book that I read years ago, that talked about the pastor's hearts. Caring for people. That, you know, that to me, that's that's where ministry is. It's it's not just standing behind a pulpit and preaching the word of God. The ministry happens every day as you're traveling through a community, as you're sharing with people, and visiting with people, to do things that, you know, you think are really strange, but yet it helps someone along the way.
Joe:For instance, years ago, when I was pastoring in Kentucky, it was actually my second pastorate after seminary or my first pastorate after seminary, really. There was a young man or a man in our congregation, who had raised his tobacco for for the year. 2 weeks before it was time to start stripping that tobacco, he fell and broke both arms. His wife had just had major surgery. Here's his cash crop, his whole year's livelihood, sitting in a barn, going to go to waste.
Joe:So I called the elders of the church, and I said, if you know anything about stripping tobacco and preparing it for market, let's meet up at the barn at daylight on Monday morning. And we went up there. There's 3 fourths of the congregation showed up, and we stripped out his tobacco in a day's time and got it ready for market. That's the kind of stuff I think that really where ministry takes place is when you you look at someone, not just necessarily in need, but you see that person as a human being. And you seek to touch their life or and let their life touch you, where you can grow together.
Joe:To the day that that man passed away, he couldn't thank that congregation enough, for the the love that they showed to him that day. And that's kind of been my ministry through the years is is, being with people and sharing with them. Yeah. And, you know, I could sit in the office and crank out sermons, but I find most of the sermons that God brings through me happened because I was with Joe Smith on Monday for 2 or 3 hours, and we were just piddling doing something together. You know, that's that's to me where ministry really happens.
T.J.:Yeah. I think I think my my best times of sharing the gospel and my best efforts in pastoral care were on the tailgate of a pickup truck. Yep. The front steps of a porch, around a kitchen table.
Joe:Exactly.
T.J.:Maybe even a hallway of a hospital or nursing home. Sure. But rarely, if ever, in an office setting Yep. Or formal type setting.
Joe:Yeah. I I had a gentleman in the church at Harmony, the last church I served. His wife was not well, and I stopped one day to visit with him. And, he was out in the the garden, and he was cutting okra. And he said, he called his wife's name.
Joe:I won't say it. But he called his wife's name and said, she's inside. Just go ahead and say hi to her. Open the door and holler. So I did and visited with her.
Joe:And as I was leaving, I stepped out the door, and I saw him fall in the garden. And I got out to him. It was a hot hot evening or, you know, afternoon. And he was sweating profusely. And he had a knife in his hand where he was cutting the okra.
Joe:And I said, first of all, give me the knife. And he handed it to me, and I stuck it in the ground. I know you don't do that with knives, but I did. And I said, now I'm gonna help you get up, because he couldn't get up. And so he said, I'm bigger than you.
Joe:I said, no. I'm gonna help you get up. And I I helped him back to his feet. He said, you've done that before, haven't you? I said a few times.
Joe:And, anyway, he said, I guess I'll get back to cutting. I said, let's go to the house and cool off a little bit first. Mhmm. You know, that to me is where ministry takes place. Where you look at a need that someone has or you look at someone and you see the human side of them.
Joe:How many times did our master do that? You know, he didn't see someone for how much money they could give. He saw the person. And if we as Cumberland Presbyterian could once again just see past all of our prejudices, all of our, preconceived ideas of people, and just see people, you know, that to me would be so important, and and would go very far in in building the kingdom.
T.J.:Yeah. Absolutely. Well, Joe, to play the devil's advocate what about those needs that cannot be seen? So from from an evangelism point of view, but also from a pastoral care point of view, what about the needs that can't be seen, that are happening inside? Inside our our minds, our souls.
T.J.:How do you pastor in that way? What advice do you have?
Joe:I'd say needs that you cannot see and needs that are not expressed begins by just looking at the other person as a human being Mhmm. And being open to listen Open to listen to. Too many times we go in with our preconceived ideas when we go, for instance, to a hospital visit. We'll go in and we've got the way we're gonna do it, and we forget to listen. Sometime people will give you clues, and they'll give you trigger words that will help you understand perhaps where they're coming from.
Joe:But if we're doing all the talking, we're not gonna hear them. And we've got we've gotta shut up, and we've just gotta listen, to others. And, even though they may not express it, verbally to you, I think physically, they will express it, in their actions, in what they're doing. But it it's a matter of building that trust, I guess you would say. And that starts by accepting the person for who they are.
Joe:And if we can't if there's not a trust there, they're not gonna share. But if we build the trust, eventually, they will. I don't know if that helps or not. But that's kinda where I'm from. For instance, I I had a gentleman in the church in Sturgis, Kentucky.
Joe:I knew his father very, very well. He and I were big baseball fans, and we'd go to ball games together in St. Louis. Well, when he was diagnosed with, lung cancer, and when he died, they called me, the family did. They said, we want you to do dad's funeral.
Joe:I said now wait a minute. He was a member of the Baptist church. You need to contact the pastor of the Baptist church. No. You're the only preacher that he trusted.
Joe:And so they asked me to do his funeral. I did the funeral. And after the funeral, the next Sunday, in the congregation walks his son, his daughter-in-law, their son, the man's widow, and his 2 sister in law's. And they joined the church. Well, his son and I became good friends, and we enjoyed fishing and duck hunting together.
Joe:And one day sitting in the middle of the Ohio River, I the Lord said, ask him. And I said, you know, he may throw me in the way in the river here. But I asked him. I said, how do you stand with God? And he said, I'm not ready to talk about it now, little buddy.
Joe:But when I am, I'll let you know. 2 years went by. I never said another word to him about it. But we continued our friendship and our times together. And I had moved to Alabama, and he and his wife came to Alabama to visit us one weekend.
Joe:And after services, we went to, out to eat. And on the way back, he said, when we get back to the church, you and I have got to go in the church and talk. So I started into my office. He said, no, the church. We went into the church and he told our wives, he said, you all can come too.
Joe:And we got in there and I said, what do you need? He said, I'm ready to talk. And, you know, he said, I need to to profess my faith in Christ. And and he he he led he he prayed that prayer of confession before God right there. He said, now I want you to baptize me.
Joe:I said, I said, what am I gonna do here? I told my wife. I said, go get some water. And she went and got water. And in the presence of the 2 wives, I baptized.
Joe:And I, sat down and I wrote a letter to the pastor at the church in Kentucky. And I said, it may have not been legal. But as doctor Waddle used to say, some things need to be tolerably legal. I said, I baptized him. And I said, he's a brother in Christ.
Joe:Accept him. And they did, and he became a great Christian leader in that church in Kentucky, serving, you know, in many capacities, until he passed away just a couple years ago. And, it was a matter, I think, of of accepting that man as a human being. And through that acceptance, good and bad times together, There was a trust that was built. And, eventually, people will share with you if they trust you.
T.J.:And it took a long time. It wasn't overnight. It was years, you said.
Joe:In 2 years. Exactly. And, you know, sometimes we try to rush things. We live in a society where everything has to be instantaneous. But when you're building relationships, it sometimes takes a lifetime.
Joe:It takes a lifetime.
T.J.:What advice do you have for personalities that want to fix it. You know, you see a problem health related, or relationship wise, or lack of a relationship. And I think a lot of church leaders, ministers, elders, just church people want to help, you know, with good intentions, but it's with a kind of a fix it. Something's broken. It must be fixed.
T.J.:What advice do you have for those who have that type of personality? I just Yeah. How does that interact with, or counter interact with, pastoral care?
Joe:I think I said the word patience. Sometimes I think we as pastors, can be very impatient, but we need to learn to be patient. And I learned that in the early 2000. My first wife, Elaine, had been diagnosed with kidney cancer. And the doctors told us, said, I can't cure this, but I can give you some time.
Joe:And that was like in 2003 or 4. And over the next 4 years, she passed away on Easter Sunday of 2008. And over the years, I guess, that time, I learned that there needs to be that concept of patience. I can't I can't fix everything. But what am I gonna learn through this?
Joe:And I learned how important it is not to forget caregivers in in that situation. And I know since that time, my ministry and dealing with people who are terminal has not been so much with the terminal patient, but with the caregivers. How how hard it is for them to understand. And it it taught me to be very patient, not just with people, but but also with God. God doesn't always give us the epiphany moment where we have that light bounce down on us and we have all the answers.
Joe:We don't do that. It but it takes time to learn that. Sure. There are some things that that can be fixed quickly. I I I don't agree with that at all.
Joe:But what I am saying, I guess, is that as pastors, we need to learn to be patient with our people. There was a button we used to wear. Please be patient with me. God's not finished with me yet. Something to that effect.
Joe:That we're all still in a growing process. This side of heaven, we're not gonna reach perfection. We're not gonna have all the answers. And we we have to have ears that are willing to listen and and hearts that are willing to love. Irregardless of whether we're on the right or the left side, you know.
Joe:But somewhere there's a middle ground that we can come together, and that's at the cross of Jesus Christ. Okay.
T.J.:And that requires the ability to want and to desire and to seek that middle ground.
Joe:Exactly.
T.J.:I think we have to be pretty humble as well.
Joe:Exactly. You know, there's sometimes we ask my grandmother used to say, we have to eat a lot of humble pie.
T.J.:That doesn't sound very tasty.
Joe:No. No. It doesn't. But, you know, humbleness is something that we learn. It's not something we're gifted with.
Joe:We have to learn that. And, you know, I had you know, it's like when Virginia confronted me with that question, general assembly, how am I gonna answer her? You know? And I just simply told her as I would have told anybody else, you know, You go where God wants you to go with this, and we'll see what happens. You know?
Joe:As a pastor, that's where I am. I I I lean very heavily on the leadership of God's spirit, reading the scriptures each day to to hear what he's gonna say. I quit keeping a to to do list. Okay. I I don't keep a to do list anymore.
Joe:I keep a to be list. And I get up in the morning, I said, god, what do you want me to be today, when I meet people? You know? And I find this a lot more relaxing Yeah. And and not as frustrating.
T.J.:That's interesting. It definitely flips the perspective of our encounters every day.
Joe:Sure.
T.J.:Sure. Yeah. What about those things you have to accomplish?
Joe:I just I knew them. I do, you know, I do the day in, day out stuff when I was a pastor. You write sermons. One of the things I learned through the years is I don't like to do Saturday night specials. Yeah.
Joe:So what I wound up doing is I would work on sermons, through the lectionary 2 to 3 months in advance. Mhmm. And just gathering material and trying to put together the thoughts of where we were gonna go with it. Usually by Tuesday, the week of the sermons to be delivered, it would be finished, and ready to go. Now does that say that that's not being open to the leadership of God's spirit if things change?
Joe:No. But I think, you can use that research, and if something does happen that needs to be addressed, it can probably work in. I think that, God does it. It's kinda like, the providence of God. He goes before us.
Joe:And in our preparation, he he could, lead us to to share what's relevant to the day, of something that I've worked on for 2 months.
T.J.:Joe, you've been teaching at the program of alternate studies for many years. And what trends, what kind of gifts are you seeing in the students, in the people who are preparing for ministry in the church?
Joe:Program for alternate studies is exactly that. It's basically designed for second career people. And I find in, the classes that I've been teaching primarily the ministry in a small church. And it's interesting they asked me to do that because that's what I did all my ministry. I never never had a church over a 100 members.
Joe:Anyway, I find in their hearts and in their lives a real commitment, if you will, to be of service to the Lord and and to the community. Not worried about numbers, but concerned about preaching the gospel, preaching the the good news of Jesus Christ to to the world. Not just preaching it, but in the class, trying to look at ways that we can do that ministry, as ways I've been talking to you about through every other day of the week. There's more than just one day on in the church. There's 6 more days that are there.
Joe:And I think, I'm seeing more of a a spiritual commitment in the last few years, especially, among those who are studying in the program of alternate studies. That's not to say there's not a commitment also in the seminary students because I think there is. But I think there I'm seeing a very genuine concern once again beginning to rise just for people, among those who are coming through that program.
T.J.:Well, expanding this question out a bit, Joe, what hopes do you have for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church? What do you think the next 3 to 4 years is gonna bring for the church in terms of service and in terms of our identity?
Joe:I think in the next 3 to 4 years, it's gonna be a real struggle for our local congregations. And I think a lot of it is because of what we've gone through in the last few years. I see a great future for our church in our reaching out to other cultural, identities. The ministry that we're doing now, and is going on, through, England and, you know, Guatemala and all of these different places that were touching hearts. I I forget how many fields it is we're in now.
Joe:What is it? About 14 different countries, somewhere in that neighborhood. I see a future there through that. Our our decision is gonna be how do we tie them, to a group of people that are located in the United States that we can work together, bringing that together as one united body of Christ, in the church. As far as in the, the nation itself, the United States, I I see it.
Joe:I see that we're gonna have some difficulties, cultural problems within the church. And I think a lot of it has been raised because of of what we've gone through, and what politically we're facing in our world today and things of that nature. But I hope that in our struggles with the issues that we face, that we can find that common ground still, and we can work together, because we serve 1 Lord. He's not a divided Lord. He's 1, and and he has the desire to be in fellowship with people, with his creation.
Joe:And if, we can't demonstrate that as human beings in the church, we're not really affirming Christ at all, are we? We're saying that, you know, Jesus is in my camp or Jesus is in my camp. Well, he's really in both camps. But he's trying to say, you get these two camps together, and we'll march together as one army. You know, and I think, the future of the church, I think, can be very bright, very hopeful.
Joe:But then I think also there's that fear that it could be very black and very dark. And it's gonna depend on us and our commitment to Christ. Our commitment to the kingdom of God and where it's gonna go.
T.J.:Yeah. We have a active role in the future of the church. All of us. And a responsibility, Yeah. To do mission.
Joe:That we do. That we do. Alright.
T.J.:Let me ask you, what is retirement like?
Joe:Every day is a Saturday. No. I really don't know yet what retirement's like. It seems that, you know, so much for retirement in the kingdom of God. You never fully retire.
Joe:Pastors are always pastors. I said one time, pastors never retire. They just get lost for words. And sometimes that's true, but, I think one of the things that I've learned in the 4 months or so since I've supposedly retired is that, every day is is a precious day. I I loved being able to sit with my wife, in worship.
Joe:Something I never did, never was able to do. And I love that, to put my arm around her as we hear the word of God proclaimed. And I love that. Retirement itself, I have these great goals. I thought, well, I'm gonna write a book.
Joe:I have a friend who's a publisher. I'm I'm working on an idea. It may take it a year or 2 to to come to fruition. But, anyway, that was an idea though. I have a workshop in my basement.
Joe:I think I I think I work in my workshop. I've been in my workshop one day since I retired, in my wood shop, and that was to repair a piece of furniture. I guess retirement, from full time pastorate has freed me up to, to be more attentive to the presence of God in my life every day. Mhmm. To giving thanks for the little things that I see and the little things that are done.
Joe:You know, those yeah. It's it's not retirement as such. I there's still work to do, and and I still do it. I have preached about 5 times since I did retire, outside of the Belvedere Church, which is every other week. So there's there's those opportunities to to to slow down a little bit and to to take in the things around me.
Joe:I live on a lake, and, to watch the colors of the leaves change this fall has been tremendously a blessing to me. So those kinds of things, I guess, to me is what retirement is right now. What will it be like a year from now? Who knows? Who knows?
Joe:I don't think any of us ever fully retire. Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:So what books, what music, what movies really have spoken to you and to your faith?
Joe:I suppose if I were going to to talk about books, in terms of a book, of course the Bible is the first book you you wanna mention. But, I think books are to me, an important I have many books, and I've been giving away books. Because I don't you know, I've read them, and they're just taking up dust on my shelf. Mhmm. Some of the things that I enjoy reading are novels.
Joe:I like Grisham's books, reading those. There I like western novels as well. I I'm a Gunsmoke fan. I love to watch Matt Dillon late at night. So those kinds of things I enjoy.
Joe:If I'm getting away from just technical scriptural type things, to to kinda get lost in them. My wife has introduced me to an app that I have in my phone where I can download books from the library and listen to them as I walk. And I walk about 4 to 5 miles every day, and I can listen to the books as I'm walking, which is a great joy to me in that regard. Music wise, I like country western music. That's that's just a part of me being a Tennessean, I guess, at this point.
Joe:But I love Country Western, especially Merle Haggard. He's one of my favorites. Alright. The struggles that he went through in his life, to try to put it back together, spoke speaks volumes. I have a good friend that lives right up the street that, he has a house up the street from us.
Joe:He actually lives in Franklin, Tennessee. He's the drummer for Linda Carter, who is, let me get my phone who is, country music singer. Paul and I share a lot in common. We talk about a lot of the country music stars and, the music that's coming out. He's introduced me to a lot of new things that are happening.
Joe:I've appreciated that. As far as movies are concerned, 2 movies really moved me in my life, and and I'm not a big movie fanatic. But 2 that really moved me was an old movie by Jimmy Stewart called Shenandoah. When he stood and sat at the table and prayed the prayer he did, blessing the meal, if you remember it, went something to the effect. Lord, we thank you for all this, but our hands worked for it and prepared it and all this kind of thing, you know, That, you know, all of us are human beings.
Joe:But that movie impressed me about the real struggles that our nation went through during the civil war period, and struggles that we still face today, in a lot of those regards. And the other movie that has impressed me most in my life was The Passion of the Christ. When I saw that, of course, much of it was in Latin. And, my first wife and I went to see it together, and she said, you're not reading the subscripts. I said, most of it I'm understanding, and because of the 4 years of Latin that I had in high school.
Joe:But that showed me in that movie, it reiterated to me, the real pain, struggle, and suffering that my savior went through, not just at Calvary, but through his whole ministry trying to touch the lives of people. In 2018, I went to the Holy Land for the first time, And I, I was moved at very different places, different things that happened. You know, I could think back and remember. One that moved me the most was in the chamber where, Jesus was tortured by the Romans and, Roman soldiers, in the praetorian area. And there's, on the floor there, the game that they played called King of Kings.
Joe:And you can see it. It's there. And there was a rail around, some stepping stones at a at a gate that had been sealed up. And we were told by our guide that on those steps, Jesus had walked through that gate, leaving there. We were the only group that were there at that time.
Joe:I stepped over the rail and laid prostate on those stones in tears, crying. This is where my savior hurts, and this is where he lives. If you've never been to the Holy Land, it's a must. It'll make those scriptures come alive again and be a part of you. I was privileged to go back to Jerusalem in May of this year at the invitation of Yad Vashem, which is the Holocaust Museum, and to study there on their campus for 6 days.
Joe:All I had to do was pay my airfare to get over there. And those 6 days in the last issue or one of the last issues of the CP, there's a picture of me placing a wreath at the at the memorial wall for the Holocaust victims. In those 6 days, I I I understood better where hatred is coming from, and how we can deal with hatred. Gosh. Our world is filled with it today.
Joe:And and trying to find ways where we can say, yeah. I don't agree with you, but let's work together and find some solutions rather than taking our anger out on each other. And after I had finished my studies, I stayed for 4 more days in Jerusalem, and I walked 44 miles in 3 days. I walked from Gethsemane to the home of Caiaphas, through the Kidron Valley, The steps that my master would have taken the night that he was betrayed And each step I took, it seemed like I'm getting closer and closer to you, Lord. It's just I guess it's a feeling.
Joe:That's one impression. Those two trips, perhaps made such an impact on me personally, and my commitment to Christ and knowing that he's committed to me, as well. Books, you know, I love to read, but I listen to books more than I read books now. And, novels, I like. Some fiction.
Joe:CS Lewis, I love. If I'm going to get with technical stuff, I love CS Lewis' things. But movies, Shenandoah, the The Passion of Christ, and then probably the greatest impact in the last 5 to 6 years has been my 2 visits to to Israel.
T.J.:Sho, before we depart, who besides your grandmother had a great impact on your faith and on your ministry and on your relationships?
Joe:2 pastors come to my mind very quickly. One of them is, of course, Terry Maynard. In fact, I had told my first wife, I said, if I pass away, you get Terry to do my service. Of course, Terry's with the Lord now. So that won't happen.
Joe:But Terry was very much an influence in my life. He was young at the time. Of course, I was just a kid. But he gave me, I thought, some good advice to be patient and just listen for what God's saying to me. And then another pastor that was very influential in my life was j Craig Martindale.
Joe:Craig was the pastor of my church in Louisville First when I came into the ministry. And one of the bits of advice that he gave me one day, I thought was very unique. He said, don't be afraid to beg, borrow, and steal because that's what preachers always do. Yeah. What he was say what he was really saying to me is listen to what other people are saying about scriptures, and, don't be afraid to utilize their ideas.
T.J.:Okay. My mind my mind went in some other direction. I'm really glad you clarified.
Joe:That's what he was really saying to me. He said, preachers are notorious for taking the ideas of others and and building upon them and growing. And that's really what a part of pastoring is, is learning from others and growing and learn being able to develop those ideas, in a way that is needed in your ministry and your service. Those two people had a great influence as far as pastors in my life. The other another person that had a tremendous influence in my my life was my first wife.
Joe:We met when we were 10 years old, and, we didn't start dating until we were seniors in high school. In fact, I took her best friend to their senior prom and sat at the same table with Elaine. But we we met and we married in 71, and we were married almost 35 years before she passed away. How many times she would tell me, calm down. It's gonna be okay.
Joe:We'll get through this, those kinds of things. And she really taught me to be a a more patient person, and, especially in my relationship with God. After she passed, I took her bible, and she was notorious for underscoring, writing, putting notes in, and all kinds of things. I passed that bible on to my son, who I I really believe God is still dealing with him and trying to get into ministry, through all these years. And he's appreciated that bible in many ways.
Joe:And then the 4th, the 4th person that's been influential in my wife life is my new wife. Laura and I met in 2009 on eharmony, of all things. And we started communicating to one another and come to find out Laura, some of her friends were my friends. Laura had been a teacher to my niece and nephew when they lived in McMinnville, Tennessee. She knew a lot of the people that I knew.
Joe:Consequently, Harry Green, did our wedding ceremony because Harry was a friend of mine and a friend of hers too. Laura has been a tremendous influence. I said we met on eharmony. We married at the Harmony Church, and we live in the Harmony community. And, so we have what we call a harmonious relationship.
Joe:But Laura has taught me to value, other people. She grew up as an army brat, lived all over the world, And she could see in other people good when other people couldn't. You know, she worked beyond just the superficial to see the person, and she's teaching me that. And, it's just underscored my ministry. I really believe that God brought us together, in a very special way.
Joe:I was hurting. I had lost my wife. We we've been married now for 13 years, roughly, Laura and I have. I had lost my wife to cancer. Laura had lost a daughter to cancer.
Joe:So we both were understanding, where we were coming from and how we were hurting. And the relationship that I have with her is not just well, we're best friends. Let's let's say that, express it that way. And we share a lot of the same concerns about people in our community. She's a very loving, caring person.
Joe:She was a special ed teacher teaching blind and deaf. And, you know, her care for people has opened my eyes again to see, beyond just the superficial person, to see the the real person that's inside and who they are. So those people have influenced my life.
T.J.:Joe, looking over your life and your faith, do you have a great milestone that you like to recall?
Joe:You're you're asking me where I'm gonna raise my Ebenezer. I know. I guess the the great milestone that that I had in my life was, 14 years after I finished seminary. I went back to work on a doctorate degree, a DMED degree at Memphis. In that time of working, it, on that degree for 3 years, It re energized me for for ministry.
Joe:And I wrote I wrote my work, and did my work in environmental ministry of all things. And I I often like to say I wrote the book for Al Gore, but it was it was a time that once again brought me to an understanding that all of this world that we live in, we didn't have anything to do with that. God did it. God created it. We just refashion things.
Joe:We don't create anything. We just refashion it. And it's our responsibility as creatures of God to take care of what God has given to us and provided to us. That's not just in physical things, but also in those spiritual things. It's also in those, friendships, the relationships we have with one another, to really work hard at caring for them, and and helping them to propagate and grow.
T.J.:It's stewardship at its best.
Joe:Yeah. That's true. And stewardship is not just money. Stewardship is everything about our life. You know?
Joe:Mhmm. What are we gonna like, what am I gonna be today, Rather than what do I have to do, type thing.
T.J.:Yeah. That one that one requires a great reframing for me. Yeah. I'll have to think on that one more.
Joe:Yeah. Well, give it some thought. You know, what what what's God want me to be today Mhmm. As I walk through life.
T.J.:Yeah. That definitely
Joe:makes you stop makes you stop and think about what's really my relationship with Jesus.
T.J.:Right. Right. Yeah. And family, your vocation, your neighbors, your strangers. Yeah.
T.J.:Joe, thank you for serving as vice moderator for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. I hope you find your service fruitful, and we're very glad that, you're able to serve the church in this capacity.
Joe:Thank you, TJ.
T.J.:Not that I have any authority to speak on behalf of the entire denomination, but Very glad that you are the vice moderator. But I am very glad that you've shared your time with me and shared your faith.
Joe:One one other thing, you know, I might share with you quickly is that, the moderator, Mike Wilkinson, and I, we want we wanna be able to demonstrate listening to people. As one thing Mike said when he was elected, he said, may not have answers, but I'm gonna listen to all of you. And if we can just learn to listen to one another, I think we can find common ground once again. But when we shut our ears off and we're not wanting to hear what the other people are saying around us, we're gonna enclose ourselves in a little shell, and we'll wind up dying. We'll wind up dying.
T.J.:Yeah. Because we can we can isolate, insulate ourselves. Sure. But I would also add to the listening, we need to learn how to communicate with one another
Joe:Sure. And to
T.J.:be in dialogue.
Joe:Exactly. There's a a story that was actually true that happened years ago. There was a gentleman who told his wife. He said, I'm gonna go visit my brother. And, he got on his horse, and he rode over the hill.
Joe:And 3 days later, he came home. She said, where have you been? He said, I've been visiting with my brother. We had such a great time. I decided to stay a while.
Joe:You know, to once again learn how to talk with one another and listen to one another, I think it's gonna be important for our future. Mhmm. Yeah. As crumbling Presbyterians, as as Christians, as human beings. That's right.
Joe:All of all of it. Yeah. All of it. Yeah. Yeah.
Joe:I appreciate the work you're doing, TJ. Thank you so very, very much.
T.J.:Joe, I appreciate appreciate you giving me of your time, as I said, sharing your faith, being able to talk about evangelism, pastoral care, ministry, the church. It's a great honor and it's enjoyable as well to have these these discussions. Thank you for letting me be part of your, your faith and your your journey.
Joe:Thank you very much. I, it's been a journey. That's for sure. And, it's not over with yet.
T.J.:Thank you, Joe.
Joe:Thank you, TJ.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please consider subscribing on Apple, Google, and Spotify. In closing, let me read from Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Who stands fast? Only the man whose final standard is not his reason, his principles, his conscious, his freedom, or his virtue, but who is ready to sacrifice all of this when he is called to obedient and responsible action in faith and in exclusive allegiance to God, the responsible man who tries to make his whole life an answer to the question and call of god.
