Johan Daza - In the Midst of Diversity, We Become the Body of Christ
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. This is The Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. Stepping away from what makes us comfortable presents us with a different perspective, a perspective to view our own life journey. Today's guest has done this many times in his life and says from this stepping out, our trust deepens both in God and in others who are on a journey of faith. Reverend Johan Daza is the director of Intercultural Ministries for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. In our conversation, he describes the small nuances between faith practices among different cultures, settings, and context. He says, It is in the midst of this diversity that we become the body of Christ. Join with me as I learn more about Johan's early years in Columbia, his calling to ministry, and his aspirations for the church universal. Enjoy today's conversation on the Cumberland Road with Reverend Johan Daza.
T.J.:Johan, I wanna open our conversation with a question. And I've been thinking about it in my mind, and I don't know exactly how to frame it. But here it is. Here's my best shot. As someone who is born and raised in Colombia and has spent the last 10 years here in the United States, talk about how the Christian faith and practices are the same and maybe are different. You have a unique insight. And I would like to know what the Christian faith and practice how the 2 overlap, because we're crossing cultures here, and we're also crossing borders as well, and what that looks like. And what is your perspective?
Johan:Well well, that I think that's a great question to start because it just also help maybe connected to who I am, because my father was a Presbyterian minister. And when you say Presbyterian in the US context context, people will assume we're talking about the peace USA. And perhaps many people don't know that even in the US, there are over 30 different Presbyterian denominations. But when you go outside the US, almost every single denomination is a national denomination. So the Presbyterian Church in Colombia was the Presbyterian Church of Colombia.
Johan:Even though was it was founded by missionaries, Their work was for Colombians, and the denomination is a Colombian denomination. So that itself shows that there is diversity in terms of, when you talk about denominational identities. You study in a Baptist Seminary. In a Baptist Seminary there is completely different from what a Baptist Seminary here in the US might look like. So so from from my perspective, when we talk about the practices of faith, when we talk about how we live our faith our our faith, I I believe that there are cultural aspects, social aspects connected to that.
Johan:And that creates a context where where faith is lived. And before coming to leave to the US, I have my own perception of what Cumberland Presbyterian look like. I was a pres Cumberland Presbyterian for, I don't know, 20 years at that time. And when I came to the US, I thought I I knew everything about Cumberland Presbyterian identity. And and the first, perhaps shock in terms of my faith was to recognize that, no, I was wrong.
Johan:There are many, many, many things to learn about common law presbyterians around the world that are different in terms of practice. It are different in terms of context. And even though we have the same identity as Cumberland Presbyterian, there are a lot of differences, and that's okay. So in order to avoid generalizations, from my perspective, I grew up in a high reformed church when I was a a kid. Then I transitioned to a more contemporary blended worship service style.
Johan:Then I moved to Cali when I found that there were more charismatic style churches and at the same time that I was living and serving in in a more traditional style church in Cali. But then I came to the US where there were not only American churches, but also Latino churches, Korean churches, Japanese churches. And all those kind of things were for me, like, oh my goodness. This is beyond, my understanding. And perhaps it is still some something that is beyond my understanding because there are many many many, differences.
Johan:And it is in in the midst of diversity that we can be the body of Christ. So that helped me perhaps to have a different understanding of that. Being in the body of Christ is enjoying that kind of diversity where we are different from one another, but that makes the body perfect. Mhmm. So, perhaps I don't know if that responds to the your first question or your opening question, but, I think I have grown in in in in in my faith journey because of those experiences and relationships with many other because of those experiences and relationships with many other common Christianians or Christians in general.
T.J.:What were some of the distinctions, in the practice of the Christian faith between Colombia, specifically Colombia, and what you've witnessed in the United States?
Johan:So I was baptized as an infant, but I was baptized in the Presbyterian church. So so but that's not the norm in Colombia. So when you talk about, Christian practices, for instance, if we want to talk about baptism, our confession of faith talks about it. But there is not one or, other way to do it properly. No.
Johan:There are there it is open. And in Colombia, if you go and check the the yearbook of our denomination, you will find out that there are 0 infant baptisms in Colombia. And the reason is because, because of the context. There are many, realities related to Christianity in Colombia connected to Catholicism, connected to, our way we understood understood protestantism, and also how we understand the church that made that difference clear. Here in the US, it's it's common to see infant baptism.
Johan:In Colombia, that's not the case. That's just one practice, but it is something that is very important for the Christian journey, the faith journey of many people. So if you ask some Colombians, they will prefer to be baptized when they are, aware of what they're doing and they're making that decision themselves than being baptized and understand the concept of preservation of faith. So that's one, for instance. That's just one example.
Johan:Another example would be the length of our worship service. You can come to the US here and then say, oh my goodness. The the the worship service is over. It lasts less than an hour. That's impossible in Colombia.
Johan:I don't think there is a worship service in in at least in the churches I know with service will be less than an hour and 30 minutes.
T.J.:Yeah. Well, let let's turn the page. So for listeners of the podcast who may have certain perspectives or ideas about the Christian faith and practices, again, we'll stick with Columbia, What would you want them to know to expand that perception?
Johan:Well, something is that we can stay where we are comfortable, and that's our nature. But stepping out a little bit will present you a different scenario about faith journey because you will you will be trusting not only god and holy spirit, but also the people who are experiencing those faith journeys. And those faith journeys are as genuine as your own one. But you will notice and learn that those spiritual journeys and faith journeys will be different. So so when you embrace people and when you embrace other Christians, you need to be open to that, that the work of the Holy Spirit doesn't stop with you and your denomination and your interpretation of scripture and your way to celebrate sacraments and etcetera, but goes beyond your understanding.
Johan:And that's that's one of the principles of love. I think it is difficult to measure, and the faith journey of many people around the world are difficult to measure because it dimensions the the greatness of God. So if you are listening to this, be open and sensitive because when we are in our comfort zone, it is easy to get defensive, or it is easy to judge things from our own perspective rather than being open to what Katya's saying in other settings and contexts.
T.J.:Well, my question has kind of spurred intercultural experiences, and that plays right into, your role in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination. So, Joe Hondaza, share with me briefly who you are and your role within the church.
Johan:Well, I'm Joe Hondaza. I'm a Cumberland Presbyterian minister. I am serving with the missions ministry theme, through the Cross Culture Immigrant Ministries USA program. That's the the the the office. And I served among the non English speaking congregations planted here in the United States by the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Johan:So, basically, that's that's what I'm I'm doing right now. That's my ministry. That's my call. And, there are around 60 different, non English speaking congregations in the United States, but going to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
T.J.:What does a typical workday look like for Johan Daza?
Johan:There are 2 different areas of my my job. When I said office work, it's office work. Typing, writing, sending emails, writing articles, calling people. That's part of, of my my job. But the other aspect is the relational aspect when you can have the opportunity to visit and be 1 or face to face with people.
Johan:And, obviously, due to the to the pandemic, that has changed drastically. So for those who are listening right now, even though this is an audio, TJ and I are connected through Zoom in a video conference. So we can see at least each other and our facial expressions. And and and that's part of of the dynamic. The relational aspect of my job is is to work with different church planters, pastors, and church plans.
Johan:So for me, that's the aspect of the relational part of my ministry. And, obviously, at the office, I have my coworkers, and you're one of those. And, but, again, the relationship is part of the essential aspect of work. Everything we do is relational, and our work is that. So, daily work, will be including some of those elements at least.
T.J.:So our conversation began about, early experience and your insight to different cultures and Christian faith practices. But they're usually, journeys have a beginning point. And so how and where did your faith journey begin?
Johan:I was born in a Christian family. And by saying that as a Colombian, that will mean I was born in a non Catholic, family. Both my parent both of my parents are ministers. 4. And, we lived in different cities in Colombia because of the ministry of my parents.
Johan:So they were serving different churches in different stages of life sometimes, and I was part of that. So, yeah, basically, that that's my journey, or or the beginning of my journey. And perhaps it's not the the common rule for for other Christians in Colombia.
T.J.:Yeah. That would be unique, 1, because growing up Protestant, and then 2, of course, being a minister's offspring or PK, preacher's kid. Yeah. So
Johan:how did that how
T.J.:did that play out in in school and growing up?
Johan:Oh my goodness. Well, Presbyterian denominations in Colombia, they own the what we call, American schools. So when I was in Colombia, in Bogota, in the capital, because my parents were the pastors of the First Presbyterian Church of Colombia, I was studying, you know, the first, Colle Americano of Colombia. So the the American high school in Colombia that has pre k to, high school. So, even my my my high my my my school education at that time was in a protestant environment.
Johan:That again, that's not the rule. That's a privilege, actually. And but then, we we moved to a different city when I was, 11 years old, and I enrolled a public school. I was the only one in my family among my siblings studying in a public school. And it was pro for what is the equivalent of middle school and high school here in in in in the US.
Johan:And it was the first time I was challenged, as a non Catholic because of my faith. And that was a very special, how can I say this, experience because, because of what I shared earlier, I grew up in a safe environment that it was always Christian Protestant? But then facing the reality that, hey, that's not the world. And there are people with different ways to understand the world And being able to study in a public school opened my my eyes and opened my vision of what being a Christian, even though I was a preteen ager, it it it helped me to embrace other people who even they were non believers or in a more Catholic environment. So, I think it played well in general at at least at at those levels.
T.J.:What were some of the challenges that you faced?
Johan:Perhaps many of you are not familiar with this. Colombia was a Catholic country until 1991. Can you picture that? I was almost 11 years old when the constitution changed, and Colombia became a lay country. So I grew up being protected by my protestant family in a Catholic environment that I never faced because I was always comfortable in terms of levels of education and my religious beliefs.
Johan:But then when I moved to to Armenia when we moved to Armenia and I started started studying in a Catholic environment, so Catholic cathedral I mean, the class was offered at at at the school.
T.J.:Public school.
Johan:A public school. And and for me, it was like, okay. Everything is Catholic. I'm going to bring my what is my understanding of my faith. So that was challenging.
Johan:And if you ask my parents, that sounds funny. But one of the subjects I I lost, if you want to call it that way. I don't know how to do you say it in English. It was religion.
T.J.:Oh, you failed religion.
Johan:I failed religion. And my parents were surprised. And I said, well, don't be surprised. This is their reality. I'm not Catholic.
Johan:And I don't embrace Catholicism. So for me, it was, one of those challenges. I I so that's one. And I was, 11, 12 years old.
T.J.:Yeah. So an ordained minister later in life, looking back, failed religious courses in school. That's interesting.
Johan:It is. I like it, by the way.
T.J.:Maybe it shows progress.
Johan:I hope so.
T.J.:Johan, share with me a meaningful experience that you've had with God. It could be something that from over the weekend or childhood experience, something that you knew put you in tune and in touch with God.
Johan:There's no doubt that I have many. But perhaps one of the most strong ones was when, I'm married to Aaron, Dasa Ziegler, and we had 2 children. We were pregnant of our 3rd kid, and we went to Colombia to visit our nephew, Mateo, who had a heart problem and was, required to have a heart transplant in order to continue living. So we spent 1 week there, and we returned from from Colombia to Memphis. And we were in in our 8th, 9th month of pregnancy.
Johan:So we went to the checkups with the doctor. And we were there at the office, and the doctor checked everything. And then it took longer than expected. But it was, a moment like, okay. Something is happening, and we don't know what it is.
Johan:So then another doctor came and sit sat with us, and and he started drawing a heart. And at that moment, it's like that feeling that something is wrong. And then he wrote another heart. So he said for the first one, this is a normal heart. Oh my goodness.
Johan:So we were visiting our nephew with heart problems, and we returned to the US, and now we're listening to this. So it was devastating at that moment, that kind of emotion that this is something bad. And and he said, but this is your son's heart. So he explained all the situation he had in his heart. And Aaron and I was sitting there, and it was a moment where we felt like, I don't know how to express this in English.
Johan:But it was one of those moments where there was no time to pray. There was no time to say, god, where are you? It was just a moment where we were together in tears. And then the doctor returned and put his arms on us, like almost like a benediction. That's my interpretation now.
Johan:And he said, everything will be fine. And just by saying everything will be fine at that moment, it was like feeling the presence of God saying, hey. Everything will be fine. And for those who who know Felipe, who is our 3rd child, he's he will be 4 on Thanksgiving Day this year, and he's a living miracle. So that's one of those meaningful experiences where it was not a pastor praying for us.
Johan:It was not a I I I I don't even know if that person was a believer, but what it was god's hand touching and saying, everything will be fine.
T.J.:So it it was the physician's words and touch. Correct.
Johan:And that's uncommon.
T.J.:Right. Well, that's powerful. Thank you, Johan, for sharing. How's your faith in Jesus Christ given you purpose? You alluded to earlier in life where, you know, growing up in your formative years, the differences between being a protestant and a Catholic, and those practices are clearly different in some cases.
T.J.:But looking at these different experiences in your life, how do you know that Jesus Christ is there, and how does that drive that relationship drive you day to day?
Johan:Perhaps I'm going to use a common and Presbyterian term or a Presbyterian term. It was when I really understood the preservation of believers, the the meaning of being preserved as a believer, where I understood God has a purpose for us. I mean, I think the church in general for me was the space where I grew in my talents, my gifts, and also in my relational, aspect of life to the point that, I understood that whatever I do, do it because god is there. And it sounds weird, but, I think the the it was an an early stage of my life when I I realized that, really, god god has something for for for for us as human beings. And I care for relationships, I think, to the point that that, I want everybody to enjoy what I enjoy.
Johan:But, yeah, it it has been at to the point today that where, I know that God works in context and and in ways that I don't need to understand. I just need to trust God and know that the purpose for each life is is fulfilled by God, by the presence of the Holy Spirit. So, again, even if the person doesn't know, I know God works on on on everybody. So
T.J.:Yeah. I believe there's a growing starting to grow in the Christian faith, a return or at least a a study on the mysticism and the mystery of the faith and the experiential aspect of the faith and the merit and the the wealth that you can draw from those things. Doctrines and dogma and practices are important, but there's some things that cannot be measured in terms of metrics. And I think that's what you're kind of alluding to of maybe we don't even have a language or word or terminology. I also like what you said, you want people to enjoy what you enjoy.
T.J.:That's a great, great way of looking at the faith, and we tend to do that naturally anyway, whether it's a book or a movie or a sport. Why wouldn't we do that with a relationship that we have with God? Yeah. Who are some folks who have had a great impact on your growing in the faith?
Johan:Well, it's difficult because there are many. I can recall. Obviously, my parents, have a great influence in who I am. And and because of that ministerial responsibility they had, not only, in in their church ministry, but in in their family, I think that's essential for me. And and, again, when I was around 13, 14 years old, I had 2 of my Sunday school teachers, Amparo and and Mariam.
Johan:I remember their names very well. And when I was about to turn 15, they said, we want you to teach with us. We want you to to to to serve in this ministry with preteenagers. And for me, it was like, wow. Why are they doing this if I'm a serial optimator?
Johan:And and and they did it, and they helped me in my formation to teach, others. And that was meaningful until today. I I think, that has been part of my journey because it separated from my parents. It was not it was not them. It was, these 2, special persons in my life.
Johan:And in in in life, it's very interesting because I grew up surrounded by missionaries from the US and and and and South Korea. But when I met John Loveless, John Loveless was one of our missionaries in Colombia. But something characteristic about him is that he was that bold person who who wanted to share whatever was in his head. And and I was, like, 19 years old, and and he told me once, you have to go with me to El Salvador. I said, sure.
Johan:He really brought me to El Salvador. He he he did everything for for for for me to go, and it was my 1st missionary experience. I was 19 being, outside my own context, but learning about a different culture and and and learning about him and and and others. But something he he told me once, Johan, whatever you do in life, love God. Just love God.
Johan:Love God and love others. And and and as simple as those words were, I didn't understood at the time how deep those words are when you put those in practice. And so John Loveless was one of those who impacted my life, and this is the joke. He was the one who started somehow those cross cultural ministries in the seventies. It was through him that some things started in Betel Farm Workers Ministry.
Johan:So to so to what today is Betel Farm Workers Ministry that started as a, congregation to serve, Latinos at that time, with him also the the church in Chicago. But now I'm working in this position, something that somehow is connected to what he did in the past. So for me, that's that's that's meaningful. And and my partner in life, my wife, she's the one with always difficult questions related to faith and life. And so she helps me to rediscover God in in new ways and to reinterpret the scripture from from from different perspectives and lenses.
Johan:So, yeah.
T.J.:How and why did you get into ministry?
Johan:Okay. So how how how long it has been? This is the longest. Now, I finished high school when I said I was 17 years old. In Colombia, military service was mandatory.
Johan:And I wanted to avoid the military service. So I had a friend in in in the army who graduated earlier. And and I said, hey, man. I don't want to go to the army. So he said, okay.
Johan:We were in a big stadium, soccer stadium, and we were sitting there. And and he said, okay. If you see it on the left side, those are the ones who, are going home. If you said on the right side, you will be going to the army.
T.J.:And this is during a recruitment
Johan:process? The recruit okay. Yes. It's normal. You have to go to a place, stay there.
Johan:And there are 2 options. Go back to home or go somewhere
T.J.:else. So in in in some ways, it it's kinda like jury duty where you're waiting, except there's more more people, and you're waiting in a a football soccer stadium.
Johan:And all of us were males, young. I mean, we were 17 years old, all of us. That that's now illegal, I think. But and and I did what he said. I said I said there, and the captain came, and he did exactly the contrary to what my friend said.
Johan:He's he said to the the the ones who were sitting on the on the right, okay. You can go home. You on the left, come with me. And I was there, and I said, Lord, what's going on here? This is I was a teenager, and and you know how teenagers are.
Johan:It was the devastating news for me, and it was the worst I could expect to happen, in my life. I wanted to avoid the military service, and and and I was there now. So I had to get in a truck without knowing the other people I was, riding with. I go to the base, and, the first thing they do is they give you a new haircut. So all my beautiful hair that I had at that time, because I'm losing it today, everything was gone.
Johan:They gave me the military, how do you say that, all the clothing, and up bed to sleep. And that night, a captain killed himself right there. We didn't have any even time to react to what was happening there. So it was, a bad beginning for me, and that started affecting my faith. The next day, those who know him were crying.
Johan:I was crying too, but I was crying not because of them, but because I was there. I didn't want to be there. I was crying because of that. Maybe people thought that I was crying because of the captain. I didn't care about the captain that time.
Johan:I was crying because I thought that was unfair with me. And, I love soccer and playing soccer at that time. And after the 1st 1st month, I got an injury in my knee that required, surgery, and it was bad. Then, I was assigned to, because of my injury, to serve in the clinic of the army. So you cannot imagine all the things you see when you are serving in in a clinic that belongs to the army in Colombia that has had one of the longest armed conflicts in the world.
Johan:And I was driving the ambulance because my parents decided that it was good for me before going, after high school to have my driver's license. So I I got it when I was a teenager, and I drove the ambulance. But there was a moment when a soldier, we know we knew, he killed himself in front of all of us. And tough as tough as it was, we had to drive that vehicle with him. And I remember being in tears after that, cleaning the blood from the ambulance and then receiving the note that he died.
Johan:So it was the worst year of my life. So being a teenager, being there, and being a Christian, so being a protestant in the army was not the norm. And, obviously, if you understand the concept of bullying, yeah. They did it because I was a Protestant. Hey.
Johan:Curse your your your, the this whole year with your words. Use bad words. I said, no. I'm I'm not doing it. But by not obeying, I had consequences.
Johan:So it was the worst year of my life. It was during my military service. I saw many deaths. I saw many things people don't want to experience, believe me. And there was a moment when I started saying, where are you dad?
Johan:I thought I knew about the real world, but it's obvious that there are some things that are beyond, myself, and I don't see you here. So on December 18, 1998, December 18, 1998, I said, okay, god. If you're real, that's what I told god. You have to show me what you want with me because this is not over, and, it's difficult to face what's going on. So, it was that moment where in prayer, in reading a scripture, got shot me.
Johan:Say, hey. I called you even before you were formed. And that for me was like, oh my goodness. And it was not only a call, but a challenge. It's like, it is up to you now to identify that call.
Johan:And it has been a a journey where I have understood that god really want wanted me to be in an intercultural ministry. And I'm here because of that call. So perhaps that's the short version.
T.J.:What did the 17 year old Johan want to do prior to the military service?
Johan:I wanted to study electronics. I I didn't want to be a pastor because I knew how difficult it was for my parents sometimes. So now I was there facing the reality of trying to avoid that cold too.
T.J.:So after so was it during or after the military service that you embraced the call to ministry?
Johan:It was still during because, the regular term of service was 1 year. But because of my injuries caused by accidents and other things happen that happened in the army, It took me 2 years to be released.
T.J.:Okay. So you are released. You have served your country through the military. And what happens next?
Johan:Went to college. I studied electronics technology in Colombia, but I had the cold clear. So, I attend seminary, and I didn't want to study where my parents studied. They graduated from the Seminary Medellin that is very well recognized in Colombia. But I wanted to experience more like the university style, and and, the the Baptist Seminary in Cali was the first one that was accredited by the, Department of Education in Colombia.
Johan:So that's why I decided to study study there. For those who don't know, studying theology in Colombia is you have to study for 5 years. So, it is because you, at the end, graduate as a professional in that area.
T.J.:So let's talk a little bit about that for a minute. So in Columbia no. Correct me where I'm wrong. That study can begin in the equivalent of, or close to the equivalent of college level in the United States. Is that correct?
T.J.:Or there you have the college degree and then seminary. How does that work?
Johan:The the thing is that, the system in the US is completely different from the system in Colombia. So there there is no equivalency. Some people have transferred their their theological education here, and it's almost equivalent of a master's degree here because of the land and all the credits you take during your your what will be the bachelor here. But it's not a bachelor. It's it's different.
Johan:So the system is completely different, in terms of education. So it is different to it's difficult to have the equivalent of of how it works here versus how it works in Colombia. But, yes, I'm I mean, I had to study 4 years for the first degree and then 5 more years for the next one. So it is it is it is a different experience than here in the US.
T.J.:So what brought you to the United States?
Johan:That's a good question. I'm married to an American. Erin is from Akron, Ohio. She's the only in her family who speaks Spanish, and she was living in Colombia when I met her. She was, actually working at seminary not at the seminary crusade, but it was an office of the, the Mennonite Central Committee, and I met her there.
Johan:So when we we got married, we were living in Colombia. And something that you can do is to wash a $1 bill in the washing machine. And even though you wash it, at the end, it is still impeccable, and it's still working. But you cannot do that with your passport. And I did that with my passport.
Johan:I forgot my passport in one of the pockets of my my shorts on on Monday, and it went to laundry, a washer machine, and I I damaged my passport. So I lost my visa to come to the US. So we decided, let's apply for the green card. So that's the called the the immigrant visa. So that that means that you will be living in the country.
Johan:And we apply thinking that it will take 2 years. To it took 3 weeks
T.J.:Woah.
Johan:To be approved. So we had to change all our plans, start calling people here. And one of the options was, would you like to come and study a little bit here at seminary? And I say, why not? So I applied for MTS to do my theological education according to the American way.
Johan:So one of the reasons why we ended in Memphis was because of Memphis Theological Seminary. And for those who know Gary Anderson, he is one of those who is guilty of that. So that was that was one of the reasons why we ended here in Memphis in the US.
T.J.:It was a a lapse of of forgottenness and the washing of a visa that helped instigate the movement into the United States.
Johan:You're right.
T.J.:Well, that's a happy accident.
Johan:It is. It is. Because it is now a journey of 10 years, and I am a US citizen now.
T.J.:Yeah. Well, we've talked quite a bit about the past, Johan. Let's start about your relationship now in Jesus Christ. Where do you see God working in your life today?
Johan:I think that is reaffirming the great diversity of God's people in the world in my life. And I think God is working in my life through helping me to understand that we can become bridges to connect with other people and help to connect people among them. And I think that's where I I see God working. At the beginning, it it was difficult, TJ, because of the language limitation. When I came to live to the US, I didn't speak English.
Johan:And seeing that development of oh my goodness. I can understand now the language a little bit. But now after 10 years, I'm speaking with a broken English, but I'm still doing it. And that helps me to connect with people. And that's meaningful because if you think that it will be impossible 20 years ago.
Johan:But now it's possible. And serving among, Korean, Latinos, Americans, etcetera, Tara, it is it is God's work. So, everything I see and experience in my life, even in my family. We have an intercultural family. My wife is from Akron, and my children are are growing in in in the midst of at least 2 different worlds, learning English and Spanish, language learning about her culture, my culture, her faith journey, my faith journey.
Johan:So I I that's the way I see how God is working, today. I mean, it's not disconnected from the past. It's I don't think it will be disconnected from my future.
T.J.:In 2021, when you're in conversation with other folks, how do you articulate god's activity in this world today?
Johan:I think that's one of the most difficult questions for many people to respond. The pandemic has changed many things in the lives of of people or in the life of the church. However, I'm trying to to I don't play well, I'm good on playing doubles advocate. And and and you and I have had this conversation in the past, TJ. How we write our emails, for instance?
Johan:We can use a negative language, or we can say the same things in a way that sounds positive. We have had those conversations. It is the same in the world today. There is a lot of negativity. And and and I'm not saying that fate is not about that.
Johan:I I no. What I'm trying to say is that there are aspects of God that are so positive in the midst of negativity that it is difficult to see them. So seeing God working as God, the goodness, the love, the mercy, the justice, etcetera, all the aspects of God in place in the midst of the craziness of the world. I I have shared this with people, and and it is like, the world has been in crisis all the time, And it is in in that context with God works. The problem is that we don't see the crisis many times because we are so distracted with the goodness.
Johan:But the the it looks like the the pandemic has helped us to see the crisis in new ways and also, see God working as we didn't, did we didn't do before. So, God is working in ways again beyond ourselves. And I want to listen and and see that goodness happening. And I have seen the testimony of god working in other places and even in our own context.
T.J.:Yeah. You and I have talked about, and I've shared with you that there are times when I've had to write, you know, in in moments of stress or distress or disappointment and just write it out with all of that and then come back and revisit it and go, okay, I got that out of my system. You got that out of your system. Is there another way to look at this issue, this crisis, and relay it to where you speak of the obvious, but you also speak of the hope in the future, that there will be a conclusion, that there will be a de escalation, that there will be there there's hope. There's peace presently, but in the future as well.
T.J.:Yeah. You're right. I hadn't I hadn't had to do that a little while, but there have been occasions where it's like, okay. Get it get it all out. Yeah.
T.J.:Angry, upset, stressed, frustrated, and then go back and go, okay. Did anyone really ask how I felt about it? Right. And then rewrite it all over again. Yeah.
T.J.:Yeah. Johan, what what hopes do you have? What visions do you have for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
Johan:I have I have always heard that the Cumberland Presbyterian Church is a church a family church. And the way I heard that, I had it has been different context. In Colombia, we expect the family to come to Christ, to become Christians, and to be part of the church. And here in the US, I have noticed that there are crumbling Presbyterianians who have been crumbling Presbyterian for generations. And sometimes you ask, and some people say, oh, I'm the 6th generation.
Johan:I say, okay. That's that's impressive. And and perhaps that that's the vision. It is very difficult to disconnect my faith from my relationships. But, unfortunately, it looks like that's the common rule for some people, where it looks like the the spiritual journey of the journey of the church, the communion of Presbyterian Church, if you want to call it by name in terms of your church and denomination, sometimes it's disconnected from other relationships that are equally important, family relationships, friendship relationships, etcetera, etcetera.
Johan:So the pandemic has held somehow to discern regarding what's the the the reality of family and and and church. I know those who are good in checking numbers, but it looks like the the the house churches, the home churches are the ones who are growing as fast as other large churches. And it is in the simplicity of homes, in the simplicity of being who you are generally in your relationship with your family, friends, and persons around you. So my hope is that we can understand that church is people more than buildings. And the pandemic is helping us to understand again or redefine again the purpose of being the church in these times, in times where family need to be closer, where people feel that they are not loved, people feel that they are not heard.
Johan:So, it is our responsibility because that's part of our call. It is and these are universal. It is not just for ministers. It's for everybody who believe that God wants people to come to Christ, and God wants, people to become disciples of Chris of Christ. My hope is that we can grow in those areas, that perhaps we can see the church in with new lenses, with new fresh expressions, if you want to call it that way, even though no.
Johan:I know there is a movement called that way. But what I'm saying is that, the church is still relevant for these times, and we are called to to do that. So my hope is that that we can start identify the the church as simple as a home.
T.J.:How would we take the message of Jesus Christ into a world that would say that message is irrelevant?
Johan:My question would be, is there any relationship that is irrelevant before God? And I want to talk about my 10 year old girl daughter who will be 11 in in few weeks. People matter to her. I mean, to the point that, through her relationship with one of her friends, a family started connecting to church. I didn't teach my daughter about, hey.
Johan:These are these are the the ways you evangelize people. You share the gospel with people. No. It was the simplicity of a genuine relationship between 2 girls who wanted to be friends, who write notes to each other, who give gifts at each other in order to grow in the relationship according to their own understanding. It's the same dynamic.
Johan:It is as simple as, as, as that. And sometimes we're guilty because we think that relationships are from one side. When in reality, it is multi multisite in terms of you you are interacting. The other person are responding to your interaction, your relationship. And we can decide how deep we want to go in those relationship.
Johan:You can leave it as super as a superficial one, or you can go deeper to really build that relationship with with that people.
T.J.:So for you, the message of Jesus Christ, the message of love, grace, forgiveness, peace is never separated from the human being?
Johan:No. It is as deeply as our relationships. I have heard many people who said, I I already shared the gospel. If they don't want to hear, it's their business. That's the superficial way to say, leave it there that way.
Johan:It is our decision to go deeper, and we are responsible for those decisions.
T.J.:Johann, if you could ask God one question and you knew that you would get an answer, what would be that question?
Johan:What happened in 1998?
T.J.:To you, December 18th? Is that what you're referring to?
Johan:Before that. Before that. I mean, the preservation of believers somehow means to you don't have to experience everything in the world in order to go to be a Christian. But there are the the things I present, especially, suicide. I have seen in my journey that.
Johan:And it has been younger people. It has not been, older people. It has been people my age, around my age, or younger. And and and that's that's the thing. And that's that's why my question has multiple layers.
Johan:It's not just where were you in 1998, but please help me to understand that, all those kind of things. Because, it's a still mystery for many people to understand, especially when it's related to suicide.
T.J.:Yeah. And looking back into the past and revisiting it and the mysteries it still brings into the present. It's fascinating. It's scary. I think that's a good question.
T.J.:God, what what was going on in 1998? Because you witnessed a lot.
Johan:Yeah. A lot.
T.J.:Yeah. And experienced a lot. Johan, thank you for sharing. If folks want to continue to know more about you, how can they follow you on your faith journey?
Johan:If they are willing to learn about how to be more intercultural sensitive, if they want to learn about intercultural leadership, I will be more than glad to share, some thoughts and also to learn from them. I'm around. I'm not coming on Presbyterian.
T.J.:Joan, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing in your life and your call to ministry, your faith journey, and your insight on the church. I deeply appreciate it and deeply appreciate you.
Johan:No. Thank you for care. Because it is like, we work together. We spend a lot of time talking together, but doing this is different. It's a different setting.
Johan:It is it it is. So we can talk more about it later. But yeah. Thank you. Thank you for for for, this time.
Johan:It is amazing, and and and thank you for doing this for the church. I think there are many, many people, who have awesome faith journeys to share. So thank you.
T.J.:Yeah. And I enjoy each one of them, and it feels like a privilege to be able to to hear those journeys, those voyages, those pathways. I get to travel unique place to be able to travel with them. And I hope that you enjoy them too. So thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with me on the next journey down Cumberland Road.
