Joy Warren - Growing Into A Life Of Prayer & Mindfulness
You're listening to the Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. The following is a faith conversation with Reverend Joy Warren. She takes me on a journey into her life, making discoveries about prayer, mindfulness, and cultivating a sense of awe. We even talk about the love of grandmothers, mister Rogers' Neighborhood, A Call to Ministry, Justice, National Farm Workers Ministry, and the connectional nature of the church. All of these and more are tied to Joy's faith. So enjoy this faith conversation with Joy Warren.
T.J.:Joy, thank you for joining me on Cumberland Road. I want to open up with this question. Share with me your earliest experience, your earliest memory that you would call a a God moment.
Joy:Think back as far as I can think back. The first thing I can remember this might sound strange to call it a god moment, but I just because I remember it, and I was probably about 2, 2 and a half year I I really feel it must be a god moment. And it was when, I was young. We were living in a rented house, and it was late at night. And I don't remember much about the place.
Joy:I just remember I was upstairs sitting on the top of the stairs looking through the railing, and the landlord and his adult daughter had come to the house. And they were telling my parents we were gonna have to move out, that he was going to give the place to his daughter. And I I remember hearing this and knowing that it was adult conversation and knowing it had meaning that was serious, but I don't remember being afraid. And we moved before I was 3 or 4. We moved 7 times.
Joy:And
T.J.:Wow.
Joy:And so it was it was a lot for a very young baby toddler, young child. And, you know, we were always fine. And, then we we moved this was in Pennsylvania, and then we when I was 3 down to South Carolina.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joy:And my grandparents were there, and we were not far from them, and we were much more stable when we were in South Carolina in terms of housing. And, eventually, when I was in the 4th moved in with my grandmother. And so I got to grow up with her, which was also a big God thing, too. But I just have that sense that I was never alone. And I didn't need to be worried.
Joy:I need to be afraid that at the time, language to say probably that God was with me, but I felt there's something bigger than what was happening in the moment.
T.J.:Your move is very disruptive in your life. I don't know if it's harder when you're younger or older, but it's certainly disruptive regardless of age. So instead of feeling fear, there's a a comfort level. So you how do you contribute that comfort level, that sense of everything's gonna be okay to God.
Joy:Yeah. Yeah. Well, later, when I was a teenager, maybe 8th or 9th grade, probably somewhere between 8th 9th grade, I went on a mission trip to off the coast of South Carolina, and we were going to, you know, us 14 year olds, we're gonna repair the hurricane damage. Because we all knew exactly. But we we went there's there's a whole side conversation we could have about youth mission trips, but this was a wonderful trip for me.
Joy:I, was with our group in Charleston, and we were on the boardwalk. For anybody who's ever been to Charleston, there's like a t shaped boardwalk and it was nighttime, it was dark, and all the people in my group were behind me, sitting on swings and benches and stuff laughing. And I walked all the way down, to the end of the boardwalk and across the water was it was the harbor where the large ships would come in, and you could see the lights on the ships. And, there was no moon, and the sky was just black, and the water was black. It was very dark.
Joy:And I was hanging over the railing, which was black, and I was looking down into the water. And I had this thought I could disappear easily. And this sounds very morbid, but it was very comforting to think of my smallness. In that moment, I was thinking, I am so small. This water is so right here.
Joy:Mhmm. It's so dark. It's so vast. The sky is so dark and so vast, and yet God knows me. God has not lost me in all of this vastness.
Joy:And I think that's kinda connected to that feeling that I had that night that we were being evicted. God will not lose me, and I will not lose god.
T.J.:How was that carried into your adulthood?
Joy:Well, adults have very recognizable challenges. You know? Now I'm I'm the the parent. Like my parents, you have to navigate, you know, housing and providing all those things. And, you know, I was just having a conversation with somebody the other day.
Joy:Anybody who knows me knows I'm I get involved in a lot of stuff. Okay? I know a lot of people. I know I'm involved in a lot of organizations, and it's just what I do. It's, it's just how I operate.
Joy:And they were like, I just don't understand how you can process all of this negative. You know, all the bad stuff that's happening with the people who come to you for pastoral care And the people, and organizations that are having so many setbacks and challenges and have to exist at all because of the things they're trying to address in a positive way. And I've been really thinking, like, what what is it that makes me feel grounded that that kind of that stuff can just flow through me and not stick in me, you know? And, I've been reading some, research on awe, awe. And, I think I have always had this sense of awe of creation.
Joy:And, you know, I cry I've people been around, but they know I cry really easily when I watch something. Like, I see somebody sing in church, and they don't have to have any god beautiful boys. I'll start crying. Just the fact that they're doing I'm just this awe of their hearing, you know, and this opening of themselves or anytime people are being there's this awe. They walk in with my son, while he was home over break this summer, and we'd be talking about really hard things.
Joy:And I'd be in awe about the way the the leaves are blowing in the wind or the flowers in somebody's yard or there's just no matter what is happening, the awe of what God has created is larger. Mhmm. And God's sustenance of this planet and and our beings and, God's love for us is something too great for me to take in at once. And so, of course, in a mathematical equation, it can override all the negatives.
T.J.:I was sharing with a previous guest a couple months ago, a couple of words that have been resonating with me the past 2 years is humility and gratitude. And gratitude and awe are wonderful cousins. They I mean that
Joy:Yes. I agree.
T.J.:To be grateful for, you know, the leaves as they change and fall, you know, To hear someone built out a song, even if it's not in proper rhythm, but they're giving it everything that they have. There's that that awe of the mystery and the grace of God that exceeds words. And Right. How grateful I am to have breath in my lungs and family, and friends, and even silly things like shoelaces that are are still intact or I mean, just things that I take for granted. Sitting in a cooled room when it's triple digits outside.
Joy:Right.
T.J.:But but more than that. That mean, it's more awe and gratitude is that and more.
Joy:Yeah.
T.J.:I'm there. I'm there with that awe of just taking it in. I mean, not analyzing it, but just taking it in and feeling a sense of of gratefulness. But it it also fills me with love as well.
Joy:Yeah. It's a mindful practice, you know, and it's a practice of mindfulness. You don't have to judge it or you just you're mindful of the awe, you know, mindful of the amazingness. And one of my spiritual practices that I've had for years is a gratitude prayer in the morning, first thing when I wake up and in the evening right sleep. I just do a breath prayer, just simple one breath.
Joy:Thank you, god. And then during COVID, I added a line. So it's 2 breaths now. Thank you, God, for this day. Thank you, God, for this breath.
Joy:And that's it. And it it really it took about a year. A lot of people will tell you when you start a mindfulness practice, it takes about a year for it to really take. You know? But and I think that to be true as well.
Joy:You know, I forget to do it. I forget, you know, whatever. Now it's just it's as natural as breathing.
T.J.:What does that, doing it in the morning and saying those words, what does that do for you?
Joy:It sets my intention. You know? There's the gift of the day ahead that I'm before in the morning, and there's the gift of the day behind me. And so it brings up to the surface whether there are challenges or joys in the day, which there's both. They were a gift.
Joy:And I learned, and I made it, you know, with God's help.
T.J.:Well, now that you've been doing it for a while, what does it feel like when you don't begin your day that way with that mindfulness?
Joy:I just do it. You know? I I do it every day.
T.J.:Okay.
Joy:The problem is what I do right before that at night is, like, scroll on my phone too much or something. If I would just get in the bed and do that prayer and go to bed, sleep, you know, that would be much better. But whether I do that or I spend an hour catching up with videos of what happened at the state capital on Instagram before you know, all the more meaningful it is to say thank you for this day. Thank you for this breath. Now let me go to sleep.
T.J.:Joy, let's go back to the moment that you were on the pier, and let's live there a little bit longer because I was as you were describing it, I was thinking about where the the the darkness and the depth where, the horizon and what is the ceiling, you know, what is where is the sky, and where is the earth, and where is the water, all blended together. That can really lead to a sense of emptiness. And one of the things you didn't mention was, like, sound. So you weren't, like, sound deprived. But, I mean, that can generate quite a bit of fear, and yet you found solace in that.
T.J.:Let's talk more. Let's live more in that moment for a bit.
Joy:Yeah. I was, you know, I was a bit down, and that's probably what prompted me to think, gosh, I could just slip right through here and nobody would know. And and and it was instant that, I guess, say, imagining that floating in darkness and everything you know, as as far as you could see around you, up, down, around, everything dark.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joy:And just thinking, I am so tiny. My problem are so the the vastness of in it is is so and God made it all, and God made me. And this I immediately took comfort. It was so comforting. And and you found and, you know, you could you could hear the water as, you know, ships would come in and so water will kinda splash up against the the concrete underneath the pier.
Joy:And I could hear people behind me laughing, and I could hear them, you know, just kinda sharing stories and giggling and joking and getting up and running around. You know? I could kinda I knew that that activity was going on behind me. And there there was another time in my life much later when I had that sorta mean, I also think this kinda points to, a bit of not being afraid of shadow times, like shadow the shadows of your life, the dark places. Like, if you wanna meet God, you really profoundly, it's often dark places.
Joy:And, even though there might be challenge that brings you there, there is an awesome amount of, God in that place too. It trust.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joy:Trust that trust that God is there and and will never leave you. But later, I was a young adult, and, I don't know. It was probably my mid to late. And I had just gotten an apartment, and I was really kind of feeling down about life situation, and I just it was at a crossroads. And I was like, alright.
Joy:I don't wanna sit here long. And I looked, and the light was coming in through the door in the kitchen. Like, it had a screen. And so the main door was open, and the light was coming through. And you could see that pattern on the floor of the sunlight on the floor.
Joy:And there was this dark all around it and that sunlight. And I was across the room, and I looked at it. And I just took a minute. I went and stood in it. I stood at the sun, and I looked at and I felt the opportunity of the vastness of the world.
Joy:The opportunity was limitless. Even though I didn't have any money, even though I didn't really know what was next, you know, it was gonna be okay. And, I mean, it seems kinda trite, but God's eyes on the sparrow and I you know? I I know God watches me. You know?
Joy:I I I know that that light was an invitation. That whether whether I'm in the darkness, whether I'm in the light, I'm I'm presented with opportunities to be a child of God and to experience the love of God and to share it.
T.J.:You can find and feel God's love in, I guess, the darkest and in some of the brightest places, metaphorically and, I guess, in reality?
Joy:Yeah. I've been pretty literal tonight, aren't I?
T.J.:It has. It's been very poetic. But I'm enjoying it. Did you grow up in the church and all of its trimmings? You know, was this a regular activity with your family?
T.J.:I don't mean to sound, tried or dismissive. You know, the the faith community is is important, but I also know you're kind of, we're around the same age. So you're a child of the eighties nineties, and and so there's that was a time period where it was really a mixed bag. It was like you you might have been part of a family, that you were in the church all the time, every time the doors were open. You might not have ever ever gone except for maybe, like, with a friend.
Joy:What do you think? What's your guess?
T.J.:Okay. Well, the the youth mission trip at the age of 14 has a tendency to kinda tip as in church was a part of your life. So I'm just gonna lean into that and say, the faith experiences of the community, like, through worship and through a youth group was a part of your life?
Joy:Okay. So you're mostly right. My first memory is probably around 5, and my parents took me or probably my mom took me and dropped me off at some VBS at some big Baptist church. You know? And I I saw in my baby book, I have that certificate of attendance.
T.J.:Alright.
Joy:Interesting. My mom saved that because she was not attending church or anything, but probably she was so happy to have a week with no kid. You know? She wanted to save her that. Remember, I had this week without her.
Joy:No. Anyway, after that, we let me think. Let me think. We moved in with my grandmother, like I said, between 3rd 4th grade, and we went to church with her. And she went to a little tiny Presbyterian church, and, she had grown up Episcopalian, my grandmother.
Joy:And my grandfather right before we moved in with her. And and she there was no church. There was no Episcopal church in the area. So she had just gone we're in a little rural area in South Carolina. So she had started going to this Florence Moore Memorial Presbyterian Church where the name was bigger than the building.
Joy:And, there were at most 25 people there.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joy:It was very similar to a lot of our Cumberland Presbyterian churches. And we would go, and in the morning before church, grandma had this drawer in her like, chest of drawers in her room. And my sister and I would get in that drawer, and we would get our little beaded purse and a little hanky, and grandma would give us a little quarter or something, and we'd stick in there, and we would go to church. And, I mean, I look at pictures of us, and we we definitely look like 2 little old ladies even though we were, like, 9 years old or 10 years old, that we really got opportunities to do all kinds of things. And there wasn't a sort of I didn't grow up in that church feeling any sort of hierarchy of of age or generation.
Joy:Right? It was very intergenerational. If we were gonna do a study or a dinner or whatever, we're all doing it together. And, we had an awesome pastor for most of my childhood time who had been in the Peace Corps. And he was just such a thoughtful guy, and he had seen parts of the world that I could only imagine to see.
Joy:And I really liked him. I really respected him. And as a teenager, I was able to preach. You know? And they they would have youth day, and I remember.
Joy:And, actually, not too long ago, I found in the Bible that they gave me when I graduated from high school, they, I had stuck part of my sermon in there. And it was admonishing the people that they couldn't come in here every Sunday and say stuff they believed and then turn around and act like they didn't. And I'm still saying that to the people in the pews. 16 year old Joy is preaching the same message.
T.J.:Alright. Let me interrupt you for a moment. So, did you that first sermon, was it bullet points, note cards? Was it manuscript? Had it what was that first sermon like?
Joy:Oh, I typed it out. You know, typewriter, like, typewriter. Yeah. I think maybe it was handwritten, but it was written out. Yeah.
Joy:The whole thing was written out.
T.J.:Alright. Could you still use it today?
Joy:Oh, abs yeah. I absolutely use it every time we preach. No. I mean, not word for word, but because it probably was 5 minutes like most youth Sunday sermons.
T.J.:But those are the best comments.
Joy:Why do you need yeah. Why do you need to say more? Say what you gotta say. Move on.
T.J.:Okay. So, you had opportunities in in this long named Presbyterian
Joy:church. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, when I went on that mission trip, I was the only person from my church.
Joy:I went with a group that was going from a neighboring city. We were in a little town where they had 3 3 young women who had to or 3 towns. One young woman represented 3 little towns in the miss South Carolina pageant. Miss Duncan Lyman Welford. You know?
Joy:And, also, I mean, that was a really, I've really been reflecting the past 10 years, really, on what has formed me, you know, in terms of my theology and my my view of the world. And, of course, mister Rogers is up there as one of the big formative pieces of my life. And, growing up in rural South Carolina in Lyman, South Carolina as a racial minority, And my mother started a girl scout troop, and we were the 1st integrated racially integrated girl scout troop in the county, which was the eighties. It wasn't the fifties, okay, in case anybody needs to get an adjustment and how old Joy really is, and how long segregation has been going on. So, you know, my I I've always had black friends and, you know, I it's just who I lived with.
Joy:You know? And so that lent itself pretty naturally, I guess, to my work on the unification task force.
T.J.:Mhmm. Yeah. Just for context, for those listening, unification was between well, it's been multiple times. The most recent one was just a couple years ago. Well, 3 years ago.
T.J.:But unification between 2 denominations, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America.
Joy:Right. It began in this iteration. It began in 2012, and we were, disbanded in, 2021.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned mister Rogers. Have you gone back and watched any of those older episodes?
Joy:Yeah. Yeah. I watched the clips, maybe not the whole thing. But when my kids were small, they just didn't like they didn't like Sesame Street, and mister Rogers wasn't on anymore. And I was like, what's the matter with my kids?
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Joy:I need them to like PBS.
T.J.:I I caught the reason I asked is I caught a clip of, mister Rogers' Neighborhood. And I didn't remember this as a kid because I watched it all the time too. But how slow and meticulous and how when he took his time, like, to feed, like, the goldfish
Joy:Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Or what was where did I see it? Like, peel an apple. You know, like, it and this for me as an adult, an older middle aged adult, I was like, how does it take to peel an apple? But he wasn't peeling an apple for me. He was showing methodically, taking his time of this is how you peel an apple.
Joy:And mindful. He's just mindful of everything he did. Everything was intentional.
T.J.:And did you know that you can cut this apple in 2 ways And then, you know, 4 ways, you know, and these slices can be shared. I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember exactly what he said. But, yeah, I remember the slowness of it. But as an adult, I was like, I know why he does it.
T.J.:It makes total sense, but I wanted it to go faster. But then I realized it's not for this older TJ. It was for the the young TJ who wasn't allowed to hold a knife. But when he got on old enough to hold 1, he knew how to carve an apple.
Joy:And just awe with which mister Rogers saw the world
T.J.:Mhmm. And
Joy:the curiosity and the questions that he asked people. And no matter what they did, there was something to be curious about, you know, that honored their work and honored their personhood. And I just I I really appreciate, and I'm grateful for growing up with those lessons.
T.J.:Yeah. How to interact with other people, to be calm, to be open. Yeah. And to see it in adult, you know.
Joy:Mhmm.
T.J.:Yeah. Pretty neat. Okay. We got mister Rogers, as influential and as well as the pastor there at the church. Any other folks who have influenced your faith that you'd like to mention?
Joy:Well, my grandmother, of course, she was one of those you know, I think every church probably has one of these quiet people who just does the stuff that needs to get done and doesn't call any attention to themselves and wouldn't want anybody to call attention to them. And, you know, in this small church, I I mentioned as a kid how cool it was to be able to be invited and have opportunities to to do all types of things. But for my grandmother, you know, it was like, oh, we don't have anybody to do this, so I guess I will do it. So, you know, I sort of watched her become a Sunday school teacher, which I think was very much out of her comfort zone. But she prepared carefully and quietly, and, she did that.
Joy:And then she became the treasurer, and she knew nothing about bookkeeping. But she was meticulous about keeping the the ledger book and everything and, you know, just the things that needed to be done, she did without really, you know, any attention called to it. And then when she got to the point in her life where she could not be mobile, She actually had left the church because I know this is gonna sound like a wild thing, but this little church had a hard time having a full time minister there. And, so as it hap as it you know, I I don't know how this happens anywhere, but they had a Baptist minister who found his way to the church. And, he was serving the church because he was willing, and they didn't have anybody else who would who would work part time in this church at the time.
Joy:And I don't know the story, but he basically ran my grandmother off. And I've never seen her she'd never been sick until that man came, and then she started to get nose dizzy. Her blood pressure went really high. And just for her health, she had to leave. When she left, they put her name on the sign.
Joy:You know? Already, it had a lot of words on it. Florence Moore Memorial Presbyterian Church. But they said in and she was still living that they added in honor of Betty Kessig at the bottom of the sign of all the work she had done over the years for the church. And then, but really kinda more than that, it was so interesting to me as her grandchild was at dinner.
Joy:She would tell us stories about growing up, and she was generation in this country from England. And her husband was generation from Hungary. And she lived with her grandparents in a boarding home. They they started a boarding home in Ohio, and they had people living there from Europe. You know?
Joy:And, you know, think about the time we're talking about after World War 1. And these are people that weren't getting along because of war, but they they had hospitality for these men. And something I learned just a few years ago was that a cross was burned in their alley because of them allowing these people to live in their boarding home.
T.J.:Wow.
Joy:And just the bravery that they had, you know, to persist in offering hospitality, these challenges to their safety.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joy:And then grandma also she's so quiet and, you know, you just this, like, streak to her, but she told us when, you know, she was growing up, she wanted to be a reporter. But the choices were secretary or nurse. And so she became a nurse. And then she and my grandfather eloped because she was not allowed to be married as a nursing student. And so they eloped and got married.
Joy:And, anyway, she had, you know, a whole full career of nursing before I really knew her as grandma. And, but she just she cared for us, and she modeled a way of just sort of quietly serving wherever was needed. She was on the friends of the library board. She was a volunteer at the animal shelter so those people could go to lunch. She would sit there and answer the phone at lunch, and she was the girl scout cookie chairman.
Joy:And, you know, she did a lot of things, and, I guess maybe I'm learning right now as I'm saying this. Oh, maybe that's where I got this, let's be involved in activity possible. But I never felt like it. I never felt like she was busy or or stressed or overwhelmed. She she handled everything, and then she would make a full dinner and to dessert and you know, every night.
T.J.:You know, we were talking off mic, and there are some similarities. I was thinking that as you were talking about your grandmother, you know, treasurer, you volunteered to be a treasurer Yeah. For National Farm Workers. I can certainly hear some influences from your grandmother Definitely. That Yeah.
T.J.:Exhibits itself in your life today.
Joy:So one of my spiritual gifts, I guess, would be it sound woo woo, but it is a just sort of a knowing like, I get this sort of message. And I just know something. And you know, some people are gonna go, Well, I don't know about this. But it's usually has to do with somebody passing away. And I just know when it happens.
Joy:And I felt that about my grandmother. I I just knew she had passed. And so I called home and verified, yeah, she had, you know, within the past 10 minutes, she had just passed away. And I just it's something that really I was I was you know, I've been not living in the same state for a long time, years before she passed away. And I felt, you know, I missed her.
Joy:I I was sad that she was not able to be at my wedding. And, you know, I just missed her at these main events of my life and my children being born. And and so, of course, we we would go and visit every once in a while, but we we did, you know, young people and ministry. We we didn't have much money and, you know, we we didn't travel very much. And so I just it was like a gift to me, really.
Joy:It just was a feeling of closeness and connection. And it's a feeling I still have. And and that's happened a few other times with some people. And I, you know, I've really asked God, why do you let me know this? You know, what does this mean?
Joy:Is there something I'm supposed to do with this information?
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joy:And I'm just not. I don't I don't really know what the answer is. I just decided to stop looking for the answer and just trusting the information. And so
T.J.:So this information and by the way, you're not the first person that I know that has expressed a similar gift. Mhmm. Not on the podcast, but just in another setting.
Joy:Not in public.
T.J.:Not in public. But, is it has is it always loved ones? Is it someone you're related to? Or
Joy:No. No. One time, I I was in it was while I was in seminary, but I was at home and I was studying, and I was sitting on the couch. I had my book open in my lap. And I just remember Chris was coming through the room, and he looked at me.
Joy:He's like, are you okay? And I said, so and so just died. And he was like, what? How did did they call or something? And then the phone rang, and it was their sister telling him, that she had passed away.
Joy:It just, you know, just kinda ran. I mean, it's it none of it is is is shocking. It's not like, you know, it's someone who's been ill or, you know, it's it's expected at some point. But it's, you know, it's always within 5, 10 minutes of the event.
T.J.:Oh, okay. Okay. So it it it's not like an unexpected, death. Not not that well, I mean, death is inevitable for everyone, but
Joy:Right. Right.
T.J.:Okay. It it's not that TJ was fine and then TJ fell off the ladder and you knew from
Joy:No. These were the these were people who were, you know hospice type situation.
T.J.:Okay.
Joy:End of life. But, you know, you wouldn't know what exactly when and just I just knew. It's like, oh, this person asked. And,
T.J.:I'm amazed by the, the proximity and time. Not it's not like 2 days ahead of time is, like, minutes. That's interesting. Mhmm. I don't know what to think about that.
Joy:Yeah. And other times, it'll be something that doesn't really make any sense to me. I have a really strong feeling I'm supposed to tell it to somebody. And I've just decided I might look like a fool, but I'm just gonna tell it. And so it's usually people I don't know very well, which is the scary part.
Joy:Right? Because I'm, like, messaging them on Messenger. I'm like, hey. I know we're Facebook friends, and we don't really know each other very much, but does this mean anything to you? And I'll type it out, and they always write back, and they're like, oh my gosh.
Joy:Yes. And they'll explain all the images, and they'll you know? And I'm like, okay. Well, I knew I would look like to Looney Tunes, but I just thought maybe if it had some meaning for you, I'd let you know.
T.J.:Has the information been helpful to the people that you've that with the information?
Joy:So. But, I mean I mean, you could read your horoscope somebody, how do you know how God speaks to you? And it's really hard to put into words how you know, you just know or if you I remember when I was in labor with Grey, and I was I was calling my friend and my I feel like the baby's supposed to come right now. And she said, you'll know. You will know.
Joy:And and you do. You know? You know? Not now, but now. You know?
Joy:And so these messages, it's like, it's clear that it's not just a dream or, you know, something like that or daydreaming or something. It's like, here's something this person needs to know, and you just need to trust the spirit gave it to you.
T.J.:Has the news always been good? Good news? Is it is it
Joy:warning Usually, I don't know. I I usually I don't I don't usually, I don't have any idea. I mean, I mean, here's an example of one I hope it's okay to share. I'm not gonna share the person's name. And and like I said, I barely know them, so they'll probably all listen to this.
Joy:But, so I if I can remember it right, it was I had this image of a couch with a white toy horse on it Mhmm. And the color gold, I feel like there were 2 or 3 other And I just told the person, and she said that she had been thinking a lot recently about her grandfather. And she used to go over to his horse farm and play when she was little. And she was thinking about one of the last times she could remember being really, really happy. And, that in order to start cultivating that feeling again, she had begun to go and sit outside in the sun at the end of the day and the beginning of the day so she could be in that golden time.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joy:And so it had meaning for her. I didn't know what it meant.
T.J.:How without revealing this this person, but, collectively, these experiences that you've had, how do you know that these images are connected to the specific individual?
Joy:Just it just their name. Wow. Okay. Just a I just yeah.
T.J.:Alright. Is this a gift that, you have always had, or did you acquire it later in life?
Joy:I think, as a child, I was always very intuitive in terms of reading people.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joy:And I always gravitated towards the adults, like, you know, not not so much of the kids. And adults would tell me later that I intimidated them. You know? I was like, what? They're like, you're so serious and so and you just seem to know exactly what I was thinking.
Joy:And, but I don't remember, like, specifically having, you know, meaningful messages like that when I was young. I just remember feeling this person is a safe person. This person is hurting right now. This person I could just feel their emotions, and my son has that as well. Sometimes like, when I go to general assembly, I feel the feelings in the room.
Joy:I feel the nerves. Mhmm. I feel, you know, when people are nervous to get up and speak, I feel it in my body for them. Or so I I think there's some, like, intuition there. But I think the more I have grown into a life of prayer and mindfulness that I feel these things have become, you know, more to the surface.
T.J.:It almost sounds like a superpower.
Joy:I don't know. And I don't know. You know? They sometimes people don't tell me anything. I'm like, do what you want with it.
Joy:If it means something to you, you know, you don't have to tell me anything. I just thought I'd tell you. You know? I also sometimes will have these really, really powerful spiritual prayer experiences, and it is funny I'm sharing because I think a lot of people don't who who maybe just know my name and some of the work I've done, they don't know this, like, that I'm I'm I've consider myself a deeply spiritual person. I I like to know facts and figures, and I like to study, and I I like to I I I like to know what I'm talking about, you know, but I also really feel spiritually connected.
Joy:And, some people that I have been, you know, church members or just people I know from different ministries who have been very sick. I have had these powerful prayer experiences. It wasn't like, I wasn't praying for them in the moment. I might have been sleeping, and it just hits me. And it's this beautiful image of them slowly spinning and this gold just filling them.
Joy:Like, it's like almost Oscar statue. That sort of demeans it. But, you know, just that that that this, like, this golden statue. And and then depending upon their kind of personality or how I know them, I'll see images around them. And it's it's not I mean, I don't I don't know what it's doing.
Joy:I just know that it's a really powerful prayer experience. I, you know, have been praying for them or worried for them as they go through this challenging health crisis might be end of life. It's just this sort of connection to them and to God and that God is not going to leave them that experiencing right now, the love of God is filling them up. There's no empty space for that. And, it's just a really powerful whole image.
Joy:And I don't make it. Like, it it just hits me. It just comes to feel like it's a gift and a visual gift.
T.J.:Yeah. It's interesting that the prayer takes an image form. I've never really considered that before. I have to think of my own prayer life, but certainly not that vivid. So that's really that's really interesting, Joy.
Joy:Yeah. When I was in seminary, the artist in residence the 1st year was Sybil Macbeth who wrote the praying in color books. And I've done some of those workshops with, I mean, it's not that she didn't come up with it. Right? I mean, a lot of people have been praying in color, but her books are awesome and her website's really great, you know, if you put a little plug in for her.
Joy:Especially like Advent or, you know, Lent and season, if you want to do sort of like a visual calendar prayer. Those are really awesome. And, and just the idea that you could just sit and a lot of older peep don't color with crayons or markers. And so if you give them a marker, it's pretty ease easy to for the ink to come out of it. It it flows really easily onto the page.
Joy:And just the things that they draw as they are being mindful of their friends or their concerns of the world and their community, and they make this visual representation. And and I think once you do that I've I've done that several times in my office at the church, where I used to work. I would just put them on the wall around me, and then you have these visual images of your prayers so that it's not just one point in time, that prayer, but every time you look at it, you can be reconnected to that prayerful time.
T.J.:Yeah. I again, I've never really connected my prayers either in in my head or verbal with imagery. Beyond maybe thinking Kind of. Yeah. Thinking yeah.
T.J.:I'm I'm sitting here thinking. Maybe, you know, maybe by saying a person's name, you know, their face, their image might come to my inner mind, but certainly not in the way that you I'll just have to think on that some more. Joy, you were sharing that at age 16, you had the opportunity to preach. What was the 16 year old Joy thinking about? Was she thinking about ministry?
T.J.:Was she thinking about career, vocation? What was on your mind? What did you
Joy:what did you want? Wanted to be president of the United States
T.J.:Okay.
Joy:Or
T.J.:It's still possible.
Joy:Well, probably not. Or I wanted to be an act actor or director. And so I went to college and majored in theater. Okay. And I quickly moved into directing.
Joy:And, I mean, it's just I see the whole thing. I mean, it's kinda connected. Right? Like, I see the whole thing. I hear the play.
Joy:I see the play. I I have all the experiences, the sensory experiences about the play. I don't just want to coach the actors on where they're gonna move and what. You know? Mhmm.
Joy:And I have this sense of when I worked with actors, I would work with them on the in their movements and the speed and the strength behind them and how that alters their character just without speaking. You know, just the way you move through the space, just the way the space looks. I remember I was directing The Women the play The Women during we were set to open opening night was the night of prayer, national prayer after 9/11. And so we were in the theater during, that production week. We'd moved in and everything when all of that happened.
Joy:And I was 5 months pregnant. And, the play, everything was plastic. Everything was pink plastic. And it was like it everything was superficial. And so wanted I wanted people to be immersed in superficiality.
Joy:You know? I didn't wanna have, like, real, couches and furniture and all that stuff. Everything needed to be plastic, and, everybody needed to treat all the plastic stuff as if it were real. And, so it was like a design concept. But that sort of thing, you know, it's still with me as I cultivate and curate worship experiences.
Joy:So I did go to college to major in theater. And I mean, I really loved directing. I loved acting too. But as I started working in plays, I started seeing the whole thing. And so what I wanted it to look like, what I wanted it to sound like, what are the textures to be?
Joy:You know, I knew all of that stuff just came into mind. So then when I, you know, became when I felt called to ministry and I began curating worship experiences or prayer room experiences, things like that. It was important to me to have multisensory experiential worship. And, so I really enjoy curating worship experiences and prayer experiences where people participate in fresh ways so they can hear the word not just spoken, but feel it. You know?
Joy:What does it mean to feel the word of God? What does it mean to smell the word of God? You know, those kinds of things. And so ritual, I think, is really important in a worshiping community, to meaningful worship and ritual, you know, meaningful rituals. So it's not just disconnected from your intentions.
T.J.:Before we move into your calling in the ministry, what was your favorite play to direct or or a play that you have yet to direct?
Joy:Oh, I really enjoyed all of them. One of them, that I directed was the 50th anniversary for Circle Players in Nashville, and I directed the play An Inspector Calls. And I did it in the round. It's, you know, it's a play talking about, our participation in social justice and, you know, how we're responsible for one another. You know, all these people in this wealthy home are being interrogated about the death of a young poor woman.
Joy:You know? And they're like, I wasn't me. I don't have anything to do with it. And then by the end, they're all convicted that it was their fault. So doing the play in the round that we didn't you know, it's a community theater.
Joy:We didn't have a lot of money for set pieces and ornament. It was a wealthy family, so we only really needed, like, 2 and it suggested a wealthy home. People were sitting all around watching from action. And so it's a challenge as an actor to act in the round. But it was really moving, I think.
Joy:And I think it really was so. And I just enjoy working with actors too, helping them find ways to do things that they didn't think they could do and see you know, just unlocking that in themselves.
T.J.:So from acting to directing to ministry, walk me through that leap.
Joy:Well, it wasn't the next step.
T.J.:Oh, okay.
Joy:So when I moved to Nashville, even though I was I was doing theater for work, I got a job through a temp agency at a financial planning firm. And so I started at their front desk and answering the telephone and the fax machine. And and, what that is, you'll have to look it up. Be like insurance ledgers. And I would I just sort of taught myself how to read it, and I'd ask questions every once in a while.
Joy:And the guys would be like, how do you know how to read this? I'm like, I mean, I I have eyeballs. You know? I don't know. Anyway, I just you know, I was interested.
Joy:I was curious. I'm always curious. I wanted to learn everything I could learn about where I was. And so before you knew it, I had a job there, and somebody had left. They'd had a baby, and they left.
Joy:And so I I, came into the office and worked there for a few years. And then, I don't know, we had kids and, I I was going back and forth. Like, I I took some time off when I had our first child, and I went back and worked for them again. And then I left and, tried to become a financial planner, and I realized that that was not for me because I just wanted to help people. I didn't wanna sell things to people.
Joy:So I, thought when Chris finished divinity school, my husband, Chris, when he finished divinity school, I thought I would go to graduate school for economics. And so I started looking, and while I'm looking at programs for economics, it just hits me, you need to look at Memphis Theologicals. It's like it's like a neon sign, boinking. You and I found myself going to that website. I was like, I doubt they have an economics program.
Joy:Yeah. And I found myself pulling up the fall scheduled classes, and there was a class called spirituality and social justice. And God said, your booty will be in that class. And it was, like, midnight, and I went I asked I called Chris. I was like, I think maybe I'm supposed to go to seminary.
Joy:He's like, I wondered when you were gonna figure that out. And so that's how I ended up going to Memphis Theological Seminary, And I got there to register for that class, and the registrar said, I'm sorry. It's full. Mhmm. And I was like, you don't understand.
Joy:Like, God said I'm supposed to be in that class. That's the whole reason I'm here. I can't not be in this class. You know, it's a special class. It's not something they offer all the time.
Joy:You know? Who knew if they were gonna offer it again when I was there? And they were like, well, sorry. It's full. I was like, I got my checkbook.
Joy:How much money do you want? I am going to be in that class. No. Sorry. It's full.
Joy:So I go talk to Steve Parish, and he's like, how about rural ministry? That's kinda related. And, you know, at the time, I didn't know who Pete Gackie was, so I didn't know why everybody was saying spirituality and social justice was the same thing as urban ministry.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joy:And so anyways, I was like, oh, whatever. I guess it doesn't even anymore. I don't even know if I'm gonna go to the school. You know? And then I go back and this other young person is behind me.
Joy:I'm not a very young person at this point. I'm lying. I was younger than I am now, but straight out of Bethel was behind me. And and she was like, oh, cool. I'm taking that urban ministry too.
Joy:And I was like, yeah. Okay. And, I get up to the desk first, and they're like, oh, that's full. I'm sorry. And I was like, what?
Joy:And the registrar came over. She saw me, and she's like, is that the social justice girl? And so, of course, that label has stuck with me since that day, social justice girl.
T.J.:And you weren't even a student yet?
Joy:No. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't even a student. And she's like, go ahead overriding spirituality and social justice class.
Joy:I said, now there are 2 of us. And I got Butler in the class with me, and so did she let us both get in. And I said, I'm not writing a check this time. That offer is off. It's no.
Joy:I didn't say that. But that's how I got in that class, and I loved it, and it was definitely me. You know? It was like what I wanted. I wanted to learn how do you walk on the 2 feet of love.
Joy:You know? How do you prayer and action, prayer and action. And how do you balance that? And it was it was my call and is and continues to be my call to ministry.
T.J.:Alright. So at that point, were you thinking ordained ministry, or was this just a class to take? What what was your mind process at that time?
Joy:Well, I knew God was calling me to ministry. I didn't exactly know what that was going to look like. And I knew that up to that point, I had done well in writing and speaking and planning, you know, those kinds of skills. And I I thought, you know, who knows? Maybe this is going to be some connection with, like, charitable work, where where you're talking about high net worth people, which is the people I had worked with in financial planning firm and meet matching them with needs in the world or you know?
Joy:I I I was still thinking, you know, maybe this economic part is gonna match up with the ministry part. And, but it was pretty quick that I felt called to pulpit ministry preaching.
T.J.:Okay.
Joy:And, while I was a student, I, you know, I would fill in places, but I wasn't serving a state of supply or anything like that. I had 2 young children, and I was living 4 hours away from Memphis. And so I was commuting every week and leaving them, and it was hard. It was really hard on our family, to do that.
T.J.:Was your husband, Chris, was he finished with divinity school?
Joy:Yes. Yes. He was serving a church. He'd been called to a church and serving there. And I worked part time for the financial planning firm as long as I could.
Joy:They're like, we'll keep you as long as you can still work, and then when you have to quit, quit. And, so I did that for, I don't know, another year after I I started seminary. But then I just couldn't couldn't manage all that.
T.J.:Yeah. I mean, 8 hours on the road, 2 small children, you're living off a minister's salary. You guys you guys had your challenges for sure.
Joy:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At the time that he was called to to serve the church, you know, I was I was getting paid more than he was. And so I gave that up and I had lots of benefits and gave those up Now I'm getting depressed tj
T.J.:Well, let's talk about the wonderful church that, denomination that we serve. I I ask almost every guest this, from your perspective, what are some of the things that we are getting in terms of ministry that we're doing really well? And, also, where are some areas that we we are missing?
Joy:Yeah. I think, you know, I have been I have been really fortunate to be able to serve the denomination in in several different ways, small and large, and at different judicatorial levels. And on the unification task force, I had the opportunity to travel and, well, I mean, not a lot. But, I mean, I I would go and visit other churches from both denominations, and we would have some time of fellowship and discussion. And I think, you know, what was really evident there was that we have so much in common, The small rural churches of both denominations.
Joy:You know? We we like to sing our favorite songs and worship, and we like to have potlucks, and we like to get together and have banana pudding. You know? And, I mean, it's just it's that time around the table that I think, really, you can't, lift up enough. You know?
Joy:We we really are a family. We just the challenge is getting everyone to realize what a large family we have. And, I think one of the things that really excited us on the the unification task force in the plan the proposed plan of union was this idea of regional centers and regional ministries where we could really allow the people who are the places that had particular gifts for ministry to to really focus on them and push them out and share them with the rest of the denomination. And one exam I mean, of course, did not unify for those who are unfamiliar with the process. We did not vote to unify, and, that doesn't mean that the elements of unity have to be out the window.
Joy:On the contrary, a lot of people are what I would call unified, between the two denominations because they have chosen to do so on on their own from church to church, presbytery to presbytery, those types of things, doing mission together, serving together on boards and agencies, that sort of thing. But this idea of regional ministries just using it as an example, I think I think as Cumberland Presbyterian, we have just a humongous asset to us, and it's it's it's a a beautiful and horrible story. But, Japan Presbytery could teach us so much about peace and reconciliation if we would be interested to learn. And I have been really amazed by, the pastors and elders and their their wisdom, their their desire to hear all sides of a story, to pause, to contemplate and reflect upon what they've heard before they come to a decision on anything. And and and their recognition of the consequences of doing things too quickly and the harm that can be caused when you do that.
Joy:So that's just one area where I feel like we really could learn a lot. And I I as you know, we we are connectional in name I mean, in theory. And so there are some pockets where this is really evident, and it's going really well. I think for the people who really claim that identity, they really live into it, and they plug into the resources, and they help create resources and ministry opportunities and share that. And it's just some really cool things going on, like, Lisa Cokes ministry in Nashville and Joyce Merritt's ministry in the Murfreesboro region, where they've just kind of been out of the box.
Joy:And, they've been serving people and serving out their calling. It's really like a magnet. Like, people are just drawn to the work Mhmm. And the ministry to help support it and be a part of it. So it's just, you know, telling their stories and inviting people to connect.
Joy:I think where that's hap where people are willing to do that is going really well. But, where it's not and there's there's just a lot of people who don't know much about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and they're going to a Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joy:So that's an opportunity to an an invite to connectionalism. There was a book that Marty Plemons wrote. She was a member. She's passed. She She was a member of the First Cumberland Church in Murfreesboro.
Joy:She wrote the book First They Prayed, a children's book about the origins of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And, you know, as I hear stories about new church development and new ministry developments in Colombia and Guatemala and the Philippines they feel the spirit move them that it's the time to start. Mhmm. You know, that's something we can learn from as well. And, that faith and preparation, spiritual preparation, There's just there's a lot of things we can learn from that are that are going well.
Joy:I do believe that if we had spent just a teeny tiny percent of the energy that we're spending now worried about who's sleeping with who on the unification effort. I mean, we wouldn't still be trying to unify since 18/79. That was a deep disappointment for me, but it also was also my vote not to unify, because we just we're not prepared for listening to each other's stories
T.J.:Mhmm.
Joy:In the way that we need to be to to be 1. So it's gonna have to happen person to person and church to church.
T.J.:I think opportunities like this, like Cumberland Road, these long format faith conversations lend themselves for us to be able to converse and listen and talk, learn, agree, disagree, love, raise eyebrows, laugh, lower eyebrows, all those different things that we do
Joy:Right.
T.J.:That allows us to get to know one another better. And there isn't a replacement for spending time in the presence of another human being and just listening and learning and sharing. I'm open to other alternatives, but this is the best one that I know so far.
Joy:Yeah. It's a good thing to do, to invite people to share their stories. I mean, I I know that that presence with one another is is what what makes things possible, what makes building up possible. When we when we met as the unification task force from the first meeting, we said we will be one group. We will not be 2.
Joy:Mhmm. You know? And then at some point, vote to come together. We just we're gonna start as 1. And that sort of was, you know, pervasive, that idea that if we would just get together, we can work out the rest.
Joy:And, you know, we became a little family. We cared about we go around and and share prayer concerns, and we cared about what's happening to each other's family members and, you know, health concerns and celebrated successes and all of those things. I'm so thankful for my friendships with the people, especially reverend doctor Mitchell Walker. I mean, I count him a very friend and mentor, and we we did a comp on race relations with the Center For Faith and Imagination out of Memphis. And it was it was really great to be able to share our experiences.
Joy:And one of the most meaningful moments in ministry for me was when we serve together as worship leaders at General Assembly, and, we're able to sort of model a conversation about race together being vulnerable. And that's what it's going to take, I think, for us to really go deeper, their understanding of each other and how God is working with us, you know, broken vessels as we are, being being vulnerable, being willing to be vulnerable.
T.J.:Joy, where do you see God? How do you know about God's presence in your life today? We've been talking about God's shaping your life in the past and and the different experiences that you've had. But today, this this day that we are talking, how do you know that God exists? How do you experience that presence?
Joy:Well, multiple ways. Through through nature keenly. You know? I I keenly experience God through through nature, but also in the the long arc of justice. You know.
Joy:We we do the work through National Farm Worker Ministry, meeting people, serving with people who Cesar Chavez marched with him, you know, and and they're still committed to the movement in their in their eighties nineties. And the hope the hope that people who seek justice have, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary that they will prevail. That hope comes from God. It comes it's It's gift because it's certainly not from the situation. And, you know, as as we watch what's happening in our Tennessee legislature this week.
Joy:I can watch it. I can feel myself being upset, and I can watch the public in there to to seek change, be shocked and appalled, but I can still feel hope that we will see justice in the building of the beloved community. I don't know how it all is gonna come together. I don't know how all the tactics or how it's all gonna work, but that section of the confession of faith, 6.30 and 31, those are the things that really call into the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and continue to be the ways that God speaks to me through calling me to works of justice and love.
T.J.:National Farm Workers Ministry is a Cumberland Presbyterian ecumenical partner. Could you Right. Briefly describe, what that ministry is and what it does?
Joy:Right. So, the member organization, Farm Worker Ministry are denominations and religious orders, and they'll send a representative. I represent the Cumberland Presbyterian Church on the board. And I have been on there since January of 2014. So I just finished 10 years of service on the board, which is kinda shocking to me.
Joy:But the past 3 years, so I have been the treasurer. I'm on the executive council now, and, we partner with farmworker advocacy organizations, whether they're unions or some other structure, to help advocate for the things that farm workers need. We ask them what they need. We don't tell them what they need. So, sometimes those organizations have different goals.
Joy:And sometimes there's a little bit of tension in trying to support multiple partners who might be seeking different things at one time. But it is always incredibly moving to visit farm labor camps and and be a clergy person. And often, it's the first time that those farm workers have been visited by people of the church. And it's it's, incredibly horrible, the living conditions that the people who feed us live in and endure. And it's incredibly unjust, the ways they are brought here or the lies they're told.
Joy:Our guest worker visa program is is horribly full of of, corruption. And learning their stories and hearing them and telling them. And as as faith organizations calling on corporate farms and growers to do the right thing for the labor that they employ.
T.J.:What are some of the needs of, farm workers and the organizations that they become a part of?
Joy:Well, a lot I'll just share this. Most recent meeting that we had was in Vermont. It's the first time I've I've been to New England with the farm. We always go and visit where one of our partners is is doing something. And so we joined Migrant Justice with their milk with dignity program.
Joy:And Vermont, it it may not be the the state as the largest dairy production, but dairy production is one of the largest, businesses in Vermont. Mhmm. And, what this looks like is a lot of dairy farms with 1 or 2 farm workers. So they're incredibly spread out from each other and disconnected, and nobody knows what's happening to them. Right?
Joy:And they don't know how to connect. So this group helps them connect and share their stories and share their needs with one another. They started coming together after a preventable death of 1 of the the dairy workers. And that was the first time that I had really seen a setup like that, because we'd been to the East Coast and the West Coast and these large farms that have lots of farm workers. And I thought, well, I can support this or support that.
Joy:But, you know, I I live in Tennessee, and there's a lot of farmland in Tennessee, but I don't think of it, the same as I I do some of these these places that I've visited in California and North Carolina. But now I know that there are probably places that have 1 or 2 or 3 workers. And, like, how are they connecting, or how are they getting help with needs that they have? And, so that that kinda helps me learn to have my eyes open when I go to the farmer's market on the weekend. For example, I can ask some questions about, you know, about their farm and their labor and and that sort of thing.
Joy:You know, that's not what everybody's gonna do. So in in light of that, there's there's always funds that are needed by the the farmworker partners. A lot of them were very busy during COVID distributing gift cards for families who lost somebody to COVID or had no income while they were sick, had no health care, and so just had to ride it out without any treatment. That that still, we just finished a program of giving gift cards to people who were impacted by COVID in North Carolina, through National Farmworker Ministry. And then Bethel, Bethel Farmworker Ministry down in Florida is another ecumenical partner of the denomination, and they are always collecting particular items.
Joy:You can go on their website and see what they're in need of, and they they distribute backpacks to kids and food. They have food distribution, all the time there, and, they have a dental clinic and, you know, they have a lot of based ministries out of their location. But there's a lot. You know, you just go on their websites and check it out and see what the current needs are. You can get on their newsletter, and it'll tell you some action items.
Joy:Like, sometimes they might be asking people to call. One of the action items we had with milk with dignity was to get on Facebook and go on the Hannaford grocery store Facebook page and just they'll post a recipe or something. And we just put in the comments, join the Milk With Dignity program. Do the right thing.
T.J.:What is the National Farm Workers website? And, also coupled with that, if people want to give, how do they do that?
Joy:Well, their website is easy. It's n f wm.org, and there's a button there for giving.
T.J.:Okay. Alright. And they can find more information.
Joy:Yeah. There's a really awesome, 50th anniversary. I think it's called 50 for 50, exhibit. It's like a a web based museum exhibit, and there's a pretty cool there's a copy of a letter that, was sent to John Place when he, joined, the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination with National Farm Worker Ministry. And so that's one of the artifacts in the museum, the online museum.
T.J.:Joy, what two books would you recommend to somebody who's listening to Cumberland Road, our conversation right now? 2 books that have influenced and impacted your faith and your life?
Joy:I would say I have to say and this I'm kinda weird because it's not it's not really a reli book, but except I feel like it is. But a lot of people have heard of Brene Brown. I think it was her first book was The Gifts of Imperfection, and that in a Sunday school setting. And we had such rich conversation. It was it was really, really surprise powerful in the ways that it helped unlock this vulnerability that people were closing off from each other.
Joy:You know? And as we as we studied that book, we had a 100% participation from that Sunday school class in our Wednesday night activities, and they had didn't need to be asked. They were asking, what can we do? It was like it sort of seemed to correlate with the study of themselves in that book Mhmm.
T.J.:That
Joy:they wanted to connect with one another in a community, the sense of a covenant community. So I recommend that one.
T.J.:Do you think that's something that we do consciously or subconsciously? That disconnect?
Joy:Oh, I think it's our culture that wants us to be disconnected and think that we're this it kind of plays into this myth of scarcity, you know, but also that we're not enough or we're not good enough for this or good enough for that. And, think you just take the risk and do it. And then you realize, oh, nobody told me I was terrible. Maybe I'll do this again. You know?
Joy:And we we learn to peel back the lies that we've learned to believe.
T.J.:Is there another book?
Joy:Let me see. 2nd book. Well, I have to say The Magician's Nephew by CS Lewis, part of the Chronicles of Narnia. The point in the book where Aslan, the lion, opens his mouth and the music creates the world is just so beautiful. Yeah.
Joy:I guess I'll pick that one.
T.J.:One more question. You have a a unique name, and your name brings brings a lot to people as a noun. Mhmm. Joy, looking over the course of your life, do you think that you've lived up to the meaning of your name?
Joy:Oh, good gracious. Well, I'll tell you, my grandma used to call me joyful, and it drove me crazy. Of course, roll my eyes every single time and huff. And then, of course, I went through my phase where I wore all black, and I had my dyed black hair and my black lipstick and my combat boots. And I did not look joyful.
Joy:And I had my hair on my face all the time, and I knew that she wanted me to wear colorful, but she never did tell me. And, she just let me be me. And I do think that I I saw a sign at an action one time that said joy is an act of resistance, and I said, yes, I am. And so in that sense of the word, that's that's that's what I'm trying to to be.
T.J.:That's interesting. You went through that that phase of your life where your outward appearance matched the blackness of the sky, the night sky.
Joy:Yeah. Same to the neighbors. Negative.
T.J.:Yeah. I've enjoyed our conversation, Joy.
Joy:And Me too. Thanks for
T.J.:getting to know you better. Yeah. And thank you for walking me through your faith and giving me kind of a a snapshot of who you are and what ministry means to you and and what god means to you and what this creation means to you. Thank you for opening up your life and and your thoughts and sharing them.
Joy:Thank you. I think I learned something about myself as well in the process.
T.J.:Thank you, Joy.
Joy:Thanks, T.J.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road. Please follow on Apple, Spotify, and your favorite podcasting site. In closing, I wanna read to you from An Inspector Calls written by JB Priestley. In the 3rd act, the inspector speaks to the universal guilt of ignoring our neighbor. He says, but just remember this, one Eva Smith has gone. But there are millions of Eva Smiths and John Smiths still left with us. With their lives, their hopes, and fears, their chance of happiness, all intertwined with our lives and what we think and say and do. We don't live alone. We are members of 1 body. We are responsible for each other.
