Cumberland Road

T.J.: 00:03

You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. Following is the faith journey of Reverend Judy Madden, pastor of care at the Pathway Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Texas. In this role, she has the responsibility of overseeing pastoral counseling, funerals and memorials, hospital visits, support groups, and is the primary pastoral point of contact for those in crisis or death. In our conversation, Judy shares with me her journey, her calling into ministry, and how God is involved in this transformation and how God is involved in every little detail, she says. So my friends, enjoy this faith journey of Reverend Judy Madden.

T.J.: 01:16

Judy, at the age of 17, you delivered your first sermon and it was in a congregation up in the Chicago area. And that congregation had over 400 people. What was going through your mind, and what was that experience like?

Judy: 01:38

Oh my gosh, TJ. It was a great experience. You know, it was my senior year in high school and I was active in our youth group there at the church. And, I actually had also been nominated for speaker of our graduating class, which was a very large graduating class in high school, and I missed that, opportunity by one vote, and but after, after that, it was turned around and, our pastor had asked me to be the one to deliver the message, the sermon for our youth Sunday, which was the same weekend. So, right then and there, I knew that God had a plan.

Judy: 02:35

I remember my mom being extremely concerned because I wasn't doing as much studious work as she thought I should be doing before this message. And I remember going in and thinking, gosh, I'm just gonna tell everybody just to enjoy every single day that God gives us because, what a blessing we have and just what a great opportunity we have just to enjoy life and see all the creation and have these relationships and just, you know, basically that was the message was that God loves us and that we have this opportunity here to love other people, And I remember thinking, wow, there wasn't really much meat to that message, you know? Right. But, but then at the end, they would take us all out. I meant they would take me out.

Judy: 03:38

They took me out. And another there was a guy, a male, who was also asked to give a message. And so they took us down down the row, down the center aisle, and out to the doors. This was a big Presbyterian church and it had the big doors in the front with the big staircase coming down and, they opened up the big white doors and we stood at the doors and people would go out and they would say thank you so much to us. Well, my group that was coming towards me, they were all in tears.

Judy: 04:15

They were crying, and they were telling me, oh, what a great message it was. And and they were just, literally just crying and hugging me. And I thought, oh my gosh. I thought this wasn't me. This wasn't I wasn't the one that did that.

Judy: 04:37

You know, God did that through me, and at that moment, I knew that this was something that was so special, that I was given this opportunity and much greater than being the commencement speaker at, high school, you know, so, I was just, it was just such a blessing to me, such a blessing.

T.J.: 05:07

Does public speaking and sermon delivery come easy for you?

Judy: 05:15

It, it does at times, and at other times it doesn't. No matter how often I have spoke, I still get, my stomach still churns. I still get that anxiousness, but I also know that that works to my benefit. It helps.

T.J.: 05:36

Are you experiencing any of that now?

Judy: 05:38

Yes. I am. Yes. I am. Yeah.

Judy: 05:46

Because I'm always, concerned about, you know, the words that I use and and how they're used, and I learned a long time ago, I taught a spiritual gift class for many years, I had this one takeaway from that class, and it was when I was learning it, and it was that a plumb line, a great plumb line to ask if people are using their spiritual gifts is to answer these 3 questions. 1, does it glorify God? 2, does it lift other people up or edify them? And 3, does it bring you joy? And so when I put those things all together, I get nervous making sure that those 3 are all coming out of my mouth, because a lot of times, some things come out of my mouth that, you know, I wish they don't.

T.J.: 06:55

Yeah. Well, before the age of 17, was there any thoughts, any lingering pools to ministry? And if there was, what did that look like? What did that what did you dream that could be?

Judy: 07:13

Mhmm. That's a good question. I, yes, when I was little, my mom asked me what I, you know, all parents say, oh, what do you wanna be when you grow up? And, I think I was about 10, maybe 5th grade, and when I told my mom, I've decided I'm either gonna be a clown, a lawyer, or a minister. And I've realized those 3 all come together when you're a pastor sometimes.

T.J.: 07:49

Yeah.

Judy: 07:50

So, but yes, so I always kind of had that idea. I grew up in a town that was like Mayberry RFD. You could walk around the town. You knew everybody that was there. Down the street from us, there was a park, a city park that had a lagoon in it.

Judy: 08:10

The lagoon would freeze over in the wintertime and we would take our skates, and we would go to the warming house and, but I often would take my skates, and I would skate around to this one side of the lagoon where no one else was, and, it would just be my time with God. And I would sit and talk with Jesus. It was like our special place where I would go, and, I knew then that I was never by myself, that Jesus was always with me, and I never had any inkling that I would ever be alone. And then in high school, in our youth group, we had this book that was called The Trial of Jesus Christ and so our brilliant youth sponsors decided that we should actually have a trial, and they picked out who was gonna do what, and I thought, that, so I thought, attorney, I get a chance to be an attorney, a lawyer, and, and sure enough, they wanted me to be one of those lawyers, but little did I know that they put me in as the prosecuting attorney. So, it was quite interesting to, how that really helped solidify my faith as I tried to prove that Jesus needed to be crucified and, had somebody debating against me throughout the entire time.

Judy: 09:48

So I would say that also and then another thing that happened during my high school years is I had a friend who was an atheist and he and I would sit and talk for hours and, you know, sometimes people who say that they don't believe, or who proclaim that they don't believe, they really know the Bible better than some people who believe.

T.J.: 10:18

Right.

Judy: 10:19

And so he really tested my, understanding of who God is and who God was and who God will be and that really also gave me an opportunity to just solidify my faith and and know, that I God had something for me to do.

T.J.: 10:42

I was taught in college for it was a public speaking course. And, you know, occasionally you'd have like, like these mini debates. I don't even know if we called it that, but it was like, okay, can you articulate the opposite of, you know, whatever the hot topic of that particular class was gonna be? Even if even if you supported it, can you talk for 3 minutes on reasons why to support x, you you know. And and there's something to be said for that, you know, to be able to not debate necessarily in a confrontational matter, but think of another alternative or point of view or perspective that differs from your own and be able to walk in the other person's shoes with real empathy, like, with a real attempt of understanding.

Judy: 11:41

Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

T.J.: 11:44

And you can come away knowing a little bit more about yourself, but also about the other individual or maybe where they're coming from and their understanding.

Judy: 11:54

Right.

T.J.: 11:54

So there's there's merit to that to that exercise for sure.

Judy: 11:58

Oh, there certainly is. There certainly is.

T.J.: 12:02

So when did and we can jump around in terms of chronology, but at some point, the potential career for clown hood, and I don't know what that field is called, so I'm just gonna call it clown hood, and and the vocation of of an attorney sort of chiseled away. So when did those early dreams of being a clown and being an attorney, how did they, kind of fade to the side? And what took their place?

Judy: 12:35

Well, you know, they, it's funny. I kind of was one who was a little resistant to the call. You know? I, I kind of followed a different path than I think God wanted me to be on for a while, all the while doing great things, you know, but I kind of beard off God's path. But in 19 nineties, we came to Burleson, Texas and, well, actually backing up a little bit, my husband was a park ranger, and so we moved around a bit.

T.J.: 13:19

What different, what different places did you find yourself located in?

Judy: 13:24

We were at, right after we got married, we moved to Guadalupe Mountains National Park far west Texas, where everyone spoke a very different dialect than I was used to, and they had a lot of fun with the city girl from Chicago. So that was so I think that was more of my comical days, but I enjoy having fun. That's one of the things that I enjoy. So we checked that out and then we went up to Colorado for a little while and then my husband actually did part of the Colorado Trail. He actually designed part of the Colorado Trail.

Judy: 14:07

So if you're ever up around Leadville area in Colorado, he designed that part of the trail, which is still used today. And, but then we went ended up coming back down to Texas, to San Angelo, Texas, where he worked at, OC Fisher Lake as a lake ranger. And it was there in, San Angelo that I became part we became part of Saint Paul Presbyterian Church and, they asked me to be an elder. So I thought, okay, I was doing God's work while still in a different career, you know, and, we did I did that for a while, Girl Scouts, American Heart Association, then we moved to Fort Worth, and, and I did American Heart Association. We started attending what was then Saint Matthew Cumberland Presbyterian Church, First Cumberland Presbyterian Church that we ever went to, and and we just fell in love immediately with the church.

Judy: 15:20

It was a small church and everybody knew everybody and it was just a a blessing to go every week. And quickly there, I think after we had been there maybe 2 years, I was asked to, come on board as an elder on the session. And so at that time, again, I still thought that I was, you know, doing God's I was following God's path, it just wasn't my career. And then I came on board as the director of lay ministries at St. Matthew.

Judy: 15:57

So I was doing ministry, but, still avoiding the call to become an ordained pastor.

T.J.: 16:06

Alright. Well, Judy, so serving as a elder wasn't quite scratching that itch. How did you how did you know that that was not, which is a fine role in in the

Judy: 16:23

important role. Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Absolutely. But for for

T.J.: 16:28

you, how how did you know that that was not what the calling was when you first experienced it as a teenager?

Judy: 16:40

You know, there was something about, being able to speak about God's word to people, and something about being given the opportunity to just address people where they are and serve them and to do it fully. And, you know, the response that I got from that very first message always was treasured in my heart. It, I didn't understand it, you know, and at 17, you don't really are not really listening very well to it either. It just kept on, you know, I just, put it aside, but, but there was still that yearning to help and, and being an elder in both at both Saint Paul and at Saint Matthew, I was, given the opportunity to speak and as an elder to do devotionals and, you know, do the liturgies, and that just drew me closer and closer. And, I was a Sunday school teacher for a long time, adult Sunday school teacher for a long time, had great huge classes, so I was we were teaching, but there still was that yearning to know more about the stories in the bible and to learn more about what God's word was and to know more about just, what it was like to serve 247.

Judy: 18:17

And, you know, sometimes I think 20 fourseven is a little hard to do, but but I always I always say, well, I did sign up for this when I took my vows. So, you know, that's what that's what we do. But but yeah. So I think I was just, that yearning to learn more.

T.J.: 18:40

You know, I never thought about this before, but you learned at an early age that the words have the spoken words have meaning and power. I mean, you might know that in the family context, you know, even as a small child, you learn, you know, that you know, to I don't know, yell, scream, whisper, whatever it is to get the attention of parents or grandparents or siblings. But to be able to speak in a public setting within the faith community and then have that faith community respond really can give you a sense of there's a deeper meaning than just me saying hello or or Mhmm. Expressing a few words, during worship for graduation or whatever it may be. You you got to experience pretty early in life that words do have power, they have meaning.

Judy: 19:44

Yeah. I got to experience that words have meaning when we allow the Holy Spirit to work through us. That was really the lesson that I learned. You know, because when I did decide to come back to it, I did realize that, again, that it wasn't me who was yeah. I put in the time.

Judy: 20:09

I figured out how to how to, you know, master the wording on the page, but even the wording on the page prior to being in that position where, you know, every worship experience is so different. Even if we're, doing the same message for 4 services, every worship experience is different because of each person who is present with you in the worship experience. You know, and so it takes on different forms, and that is only through the holy spirit. You know, only through the holy spirit do people walk out say, you were speaking directly to me. How did you know that?

Judy: 20:58

You know, it's, I didn't know that. Other pastors don't know that. You know? We're not living with you. We just, we just trust that the Holy Spirit's gonna point to move us to say the words that are needed for whoever is there to hear what they need to hear, to increase just their soul and to increase their spirit and to fill it up that they might be equipped to go out and do what they're called to do.

Judy: 21:32

So it it's just been a great that is really, I think, the largest lesson is that words by themselves are words. Words with the holy spirit are something that is miraculous.

T.J.: 21:47

Well, let's talk about some of the vocations that you, studied in and and lived lived in while you were dancing around the calling to ministry without fully embracing it. Yeah. I don't know why I gotta tried to get a little poetic there, but I, you know Yeah. That was nice. Well, I want to be

Judy: 22:11

That's a good thing.

T.J.: 22:14

I didn't wanna say resistant because that doesn't always convey. It's, you know Yeah.

Judy: 22:20

I was dancing around there.

T.J.: 22:22

Yeah. I didn't wanna say that you turned your back to it, but I would I would imagine it's more of a dance. So you're you're there. The calling hasn't gone away, neither have you, but there isn't that embrace. Like a slow dance.

Judy: 22:37

Not a full it wasn't a full embrace. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't a full embrace until later. Yeah.

Judy: 22:44

So

T.J.: 22:45

What what other jobs did you have there that's more plain plainly spoken?

Judy: 22:49

Let's see. I was a I worked for a pizza company for a while. I took pictures of Bugs Bunny. No. But more important, I was, I actually was a regional director for helping racquetball club for several years.

T.J.: 23:12

Oh, wow.

Judy: 23:12

And then from there went to the Girl Scouts of America where I was a field director, and then on to the American Heart Association, where I was a regional director. And, you know, the kind of the one thing that connects all of those is, building relationships. You know? And not and my husband would say and definitely not the money. I've never been.

Judy: 23:45

He would always say, you know, you could be making a lot more money. I know. I know. So, but it's about the relationships, I think, and the other kind of common denominator would be, helping people become who I believed and who I hoped God created them to be in all of those situations, you know, so something that would help them better their lives and in the process, better my own life because, you know, my life would be richer and fuller and has been because of every single person that I've met along the way. And, so I, really, all of those jobs kind of led up to knowing that, here I was going into full time ministry, and and I did go into full time ministry 26 years ago, at Saint Matthew, but, not as an ordained pastor.

Judy: 24:47

So,

T.J.: 24:48

Well, that's interesting. Your secular work touches on the different aspects of the human, from the physical to, growing into, teenage years and womanhood, adulthood, and and then again to the the physical again with the American Heart Association. So you certainly were I hold to it. You certainly were dancing with the call to ministry, to the ordained ministry of the word and sacraments.

Judy: 25:21

Yeah.

T.J.: 25:21

And the reason I asked is that I was wondering how what vocations that you had and how they how how do they inform and assist the role that you're in now? Because your title now at, Pathway, Cumberland Presbyterian Church is pastor of care.

Judy: 25:45

Right. Yeah. And, all of those positions, they really have been about caring about the other person. And then it's all they've all been from the health club to girl scouts to American Heart Association to my first job with, Saint Matthew, which was director of lay ministries. It's it was always about really building the relationships and caring for the other people.

Judy: 26:18

All of them kind of built on each other. You know, at, Saint Matthew, when I was rotating off of the session, we knew that our senior pastor, who's now our senior pastor still, Rick Owen, and, we knew that he needed to have additional help that was not secretarial or administrative help, but help doing things that he couldn't get to because we had started growing. And, he we built this job description that seemed almost unreal that somebody would wanna do all of this extra work from everything from from recruiting and calling out, everybody to be on teams to make the church work, facilities, the budget, all of these things, and, then doing hospital visits if that was needed and kind of kind of following up for him if he couldn't get to it. And, I remember there was another elder, his name was Allen Watson, and Allen said to me he was seated right next to me during, the session meeting, and he said, hey, Ann, Judy. I don't know who would ever wanna do this job for this little pay.

Judy: 27:42

And I looked at him and I go, Alan, I think I do. And he said, and he was like, what? And I said, I think this is me. And, because everything that I had done in the past, budgets for other for the other groups, for the American Heart Association, for the health club, for for the girl scouts, coordinating large groups of volunteers, putting on special events. I meant all of those things all came, fulfilled all of the little tick marks that we needed for the person to take this position on.

Judy: 28:27

So that's how I think everything kind of God was showing me, hey, this is where you need to be. You need to be in the church full time and that's, you know, get back on my path, I think. God was saying, get back on my path, Judy.

T.J.: 28:47

And how long did you, work in that role? So it was called director of

Judy: 28:53

Director of lay ministries. So we had 12 teams that all had about 8 to 10 people on them and those 12 teams well, I shouldn't say. At the very beginning, they probably had about 3 people on each team, And those teams really did all of the work of the church, you know, and I just coordinated them and helped them get what they needed to do to do their jobs. But then so I did that up until about 2,009. And then, 2009, I switched over to pastor of care, and I went to school at the same time.

Judy: 29:40

So or did I? Yeah. Yeah. I was already in school. I was already in school.

Judy: 29:46

Sorry. I went back to school in 2007.

T.J.: 29:50

Wow. Okay. So you went back to school. So you were a student, and then you had a, not a career change, but a shift in focus.

Judy: 30:02

Right.

T.J.: 30:03

Correct. So what were the differences between director of lay ministries and what did you call the other

Judy: 30:10

Pastor of Care.

T.J.: 30:10

Pastor of Care.

Judy: 30:11

Pastor of Care. Yeah. Well, or it was, at the time, director of Care Ministries. Okay. Alright.

Judy: 30:17

So, well, 1, the CURE Ministries was really, being focused on the care of the people that were at St. Matthew at the time. And and we just really it was about making sure that hospital visits were done, and we had Stephen ministers at the time, and so it was, and I was a Stephen minister. That was one of the first things that I did at Saint Matthew was become a Stephen minister. Again, I knew God was calling me in that direction, but, but anyway, so we just kept on going further into caring because we had grown so large that, it just took more and more of pastoral assistance to care for everyone who was there.

Judy: 31:13

So that was something that kept on, building as I went into it. So it had a lot to do with also, we developed the grief share. We didn't develop grief share. We started using grief share at the time, and, that has been a huge component of what I do is grief support groups. And, I think we've done over 50 some great 13 week grief support groups since I began it.

Judy: 31:46

So, it's been yeah. That's been a crazy ride in and of itself. But

T.J.: 31:54

Yeah. Let let's talk about this transition, and maybe we do more of a deeper dive. So your your form of leadership within the church is as an active elder. But what about your relationship with God? How is it growing?

T.J.: 32:13

Is it becoming deeper, as a disciple? Because I would imagine that the temptation is where that relationship with God can kind of shift into a more professional slash administrative slash vocation, where it's something that you almost wear. You know, almost like a shift work. Right. When, you know, as you're calling as an elder, I guess that temptation is also there as well, but you're becoming a paid and had been a paid professional within the church.

T.J.: 32:57

Did that Mhmm. How did you balance that in your your relationship with God? Because it's it shifted. It changed.

Judy: 33:07

Yeah. It did shift and change. And for the first, several years, it probably didn't shift enough, if that makes sense. I was still doing very much, just directing, like you said. You know, it's easy, especially when there's a lot going on.

Judy: 33:30

It's easy to fill up your time with activities and with trying to make sure that everything works. And, unfortunately

T.J.: 33:39

That's what you were hired to do.

Judy: 33:41

Right? Right. Right. Yeah. And then, in 2004, my mom, who had just turned 73, found out that she had 4th stage lung cancer.

Judy: 33:56

That was pretty big blow to all of us because she was young. She was active. I think 73 is young, but she was active. She was doing jazzercise, and she was golfing, and she was volunteering all around our hometown and, never smoked, but, she ended up getting lung cancer. And she found out on July 1st that she had 4th stage lung cancer and that she would take her first chemo treatment in a couple of weeks.

Judy: 34:36

And then by August 21st, she had passed.

T.J.: 34:42

Wow.

Judy: 34:43

So it was only a 6 week time period. The church was tremendous, and, I left to go see my mom thinking that she was gonna have this first chemo treatment and then bounce back, and I'd be back. And, you know, and it turns out that I left on, I think, like, July 7th, and I didn't come back until the end of August after she had passed. So during that time, it was pretty that was really a pivotal change in my life. My mom, was one of my greatest inspirations, and she was really the one who instilled God in my life.

Judy: 35:31

My mom did things so crazy, like, you know, the, Jehovah Witnesses would come to our door when when I was young and they would ask my mom, you know, all these questions and then they would say, can we share our bible with you? And my mom would say, oh, certainly. Would you like to come in? And once you're done sharing your bible with you, I'd like to share mine with you. You know?

Judy: 35:55

So so that's the type of mom my mom was. She was very open, very loving, very much, just all about hearing other people out, but she was gonna stand firm on her beliefs and, you know, share what she knew with others. And I think that's, you know, that certainly is where I got my faith from, my foundation of my faith from. But, but so my mom was in the hospital and, she had had a stroke, I think, during the evening, and I was there by myself with her and I called the nurses and we'd already decided that she was gonna go on hospice. She had already decided that she was gonna go on hospice and and so, the nurse came in and they said, okay, well, we're gonna send your mom home with you, and she'll either be given, morphine through a shot in her arm or she she can take it underneath her tongue and little drops underneath her tongue.

Judy: 37:03

And so this woman, because she couldn't speak very well, my mom couldn't speak very well because this little mini stroke that she had overnight, you know, I looked at the nurse and I was so full of myself and I just told the nurse, I was like, well, you know, my mom can understand And my And my mom knew that I was deathly scared of of shots and deathly scared of hospitals. So I knew my mom was gonna say, give it to her in the mouth, take her medicine in the mouth. And he looked at the nurse and she kind of pointed to her arm and she said, shot. And I looked at the nurse, and I went, I think we need to ask her again. I don't think she quite quite understands this because she knows me, and she knows I'm not gonna be able to do this for her.

Judy: 38:10

So we need to ask her again. My mom my mom, bless her heart, she had the hardest time pronouncing anything, but she's just got out the words. She looked at me and she got out the words, new skill. And, that was more than just the new skill of caring for her and putting a shot in her arm, which we found out was just through an IV. It was I didn't have to stick her with a needle all the time.

Judy: 38:42

So that was, whew, that was a load off of mine and my sisters' skulls because we were like, oh my gosh, we need to do this. And, but, so that new skill I came to learn was, taking on being caring for others in crisis situations, caring for others during deaths, caring for others at all times of that where the need is high. And, you know, the another joke that was really funny that went around or a funny story, it wasn't a joke, it was a real story, was one time I went as an elder into the hospital because I thought I can do this and I went to go see somebody who had knee surgery and they had one of those halo things around their knee sticking out of their knee after the surgery. And, and I went in and her name was Betsy and I said, Hey, Betsy, how are you doing? And she said, Oh, I'm doing well.

Judy: 39:47

It's good to see you. And I went in with a friend of mine who I knew she would be okay around a hospital setting, and, she had this halo thing underneath the sheet, and she said, do you wanna see it? And I said, oh, no. No. No.

Judy: 40:05

And my friend said, oh, yeah. And then right then, this woman comes in, and she said, okay, Betsy. It's time to get you up on your feet and all she did was make this little Betsy made this little wince and went as she moved her knee for the first time, and I just lost it. And I could feel all the blood running out of my face. I went around the corner into the hospital hallway, slid down the wall, and I was sitting in the hospital hallway.

Judy: 40:40

And then from around the corner in the room, this, this friend of ours, Betsy, was going, Judy, are you okay? Are you okay? And I was like, Betsy, you're the patient. I'm here to see you. So and my mom knew that story too.

Judy: 41:00

So, my mom just really kind of kind of turned my direction towards finding out that I needed to be doing more with my life than coordinating, coordinating many servants, you know, and so that's really when it kind of took a turn and that's when I knew I needed to go back to school.

T.J.: 41:25

You said that was a pivotal moment in your life, a pivotal season. How long after the the death of your mother that you knew that directing and administrating and planning and coordinating was just part of the dance, but not all of the dance?

Judy: 41:50

It was it was fairly quick that I started feeling that tug that I needed to do something more. You know, I I got I strengthened my relationship with God. I knew that God was always there, but I started paying more attention to the fact that God was always there with me. And I had many God moments during my mom's death. Being with her, I was with her all the time from the time that she got the from the time that I went up there to the time that she passed, and, I just got to see God working in so many so many different and amazing ways and just blessing And, so as as I was going through, I remember going back and I told Rick that, that I felt, Rick Owen, that I felt like I needed to go back to school.

Judy: 43:02

And, Rick said, why? You're doing everything. You don't need any schooling, Judy. You already have done everything here. You have more knowledge and you have more experience than all of these people at school are gonna have, you know, because of the work that you've done, because of who you are, because of just how God created you.

Judy: 43:26

And so he said, so why do you need to go back? And I was like, oh, good point, Rick. You know? So I didn't. Then I went and asked him again because I kept on feeling the tug.

Judy: 43:38

And again, he said, well, tell me why. And I was like, hey. I guess not. And then it was in so I guess it was in 2,007, 2,006, 2007. So this had been going on for a couple years.

Judy: 43:55

And I went back to him and I said, instead of going back and asking him this time, I had gone to I went and applied to Bright Divinity School and on the TCU campus, which was close by, and I just went in and I said, okay, Rick. I need to tell you, I've already applied. I'm not asking your permission. I'm just telling you that God's calling me to do this and I'm gonna do it. And, and his reply was, I've been waiting for this moment.

Judy: 44:32

And I was like, oh, great. So so, you know, other people can, try to direct you out of the dance and into the more in sync dance with God, but, I learned from him that, it's gotta come from within the person for it really to take hold because and very rightfully so, had I done that because I thought he wanted me to do it or somebody else wanted me to do it, I would have been doing it for the wrong reasons. But but God really wasn't gonna let go of me until I made this move to do that.

T.J.: 45:13

You mentioned your mother as someone who had a positive impact on your life and your faith. Who else has been, along your journey, made an impact on your faith and helped you become the the Judy that you are?

Judy: 45:32

Oh, gosh. Gosh, TJ, there's just so many. I it's hard to even, talk about them. You know? There's but I I think that that's a really good question.

Judy: 45:53

My grandmother, my mom's mom, was, one of the most loving grandmothers that she could have. My siblings and I would also say that she was very overbearing and kind of smothering at times, But, but she was one of those where when you sat in her lap, you knew that you were unconditionally loved. You know, there wasn't, anything that she wouldn't do for us. And so, she was one. My my, grandfather on my mother's side as well, both of them came from Germany in the twenties.

Judy: 46:35

So they were immigrants and met in Chicago and, they both had hardships and lived through the depression and had to live through World War 2 as Germans here in America, And, but my grandfather to his last breath, was saying the Lord's prayer in German and, even to the point where his Filipino caregivers that were with him, he lived to be a 108. And yeah, and his Filipino grand his fill Filipino, caregivers called one day and said, we don't know what your grandfather's doing. They asked they called my sister and said, we don't know what he's doing. He's mumbling something. And, to find out that he was saying the Lord's prayer in German every night, you know, out loud at a 108.

Judy: 47:38

And, you know, that's just an incredible amount of of faith. You know, I think every person who has passed, who has died, has taught me a lesson. Most recently, it was my brother's passing just, in February, and, it was, there's always just something very tender, something very special. You know, my brother used to always say, you know, we'll always love each other. We don't have to say it.

Judy: 48:15

We don't have to be around each other. We just know we're always gonna love each other. And, yeah, so there's always been these one right after another, my dad's passing, you know, so just and constantly, God's faithfulness just continues on and continues on and continues on, And every time that I think that I've hit the very lowest, I, I'm God is always right there, and Jesus is always by my side and equipping me and empowering me to do whatever I need to do, not just for others, but for myself as well. So, there's just way too many people to add. Just way too many people.

Judy: 49:07

From youth sponsors a long time ago to, gosh, in our own denomination, Linda Snelling, Perrin Rice, Duane Mearns. I've been if I start if I start talking about them, I'm gonna miss somebody, Jeff Gale, 2 new pastors coming in, like Cheyenne Davis and Kevin Bulgarelli. I mean, I'm just, you know, everybody at the denomination that I know, I'm I'm gonna miss somebody if I start.

T.J.: 49:38

Alright. I'll ask you another question.

Judy: 49:42

Okay.

T.J.: 49:44

I have these weekly conversations about people's faith journey and I was wondering what would you say, well, let me back up. And in these conversations, you know, we use a language and vernacular. There's there's a level of just being comfortable, being able to speak freely about God and and the workings of the Holy Spirit. But, Judy, what would you say what kind of tone would the conversation have when sharing your faith and talking about your faith with someone who god's not on the radar, the Christian faith is not on the radar, and they hear words and phrases that we use so easy and so interchangeably, especially within the church, the faith community, what words of wisdom or guidance, comfort, what would you share with them in terms of sharing of your faith?

Judy: 50:53

I believe that first, TJ, it's just meeting people's needs wherever they're at. I think if we ignore a need that need that's right in front of our faces, and we, and we try to evangelize to them, you know, in the way that we know evangelizing is or that we think evangelizing is, I think we've already lost the person, because I think they probably would be thinking you're a hypocrite. You know, I'm I'm sitting here and and I am sobbing because my husband's in the hospital, and you're telling me, hey. You need to pray more or whatever, which I would never do. But I think being there with somebody and, whispering in some words to help them understand that God is with them even in that moment.

Judy: 52:00

Telling, somebody who just can't even breathe because they're so much in shock because their loved one is in an ICU room and has been in a horrible accident, I meant telling that person, hey. Just it's okay to breathe. You know? And then maybe, maybe the opportunity arises a little while longer and down the line where you can tell somebody, you know what? Breathing is saying the name of Yahweh.

Judy: 52:32

Saying the name of God with every breath that we take, you know, or that breathing is breathing in God's love and exhaling all of the negative. That, to me, is more about reaching one more for God than anything. And, also, I believe that, you know, if we have an opportunity to be there with them, it gives us the opportunity to come back, or they want to come back. You know, just because, just because of our demeanor, in, in whatever's going on, if it's chaos, if it's, if it's hurt, if it's pain, and we remain because we know that we can, because of God, we remain that stable person for them, then, then they'll come back and they'll wanna say, hey, can you help me? And that opens up a door, You know?

Judy: 53:37

So, I do a lot of funerals and a lot of memorials with people that are surrounding that don't know God or that have very little to do with God. Sometimes they just come and they ask, hey. We would love to have a a memorial here in your church, but nobody goes here. And, we're always welcoming everybody who wants to come and do that. You know, we have a few guidelines that, you know, when we always immediately ask if they need a pastor and, you know, if they are unchurched, they don't know that they don't even know what they're asking for, you know, so it really gives you the opportunity.

Judy: 54:21

I did a did a a service once for a guy from Cutting Edge, which is the a huge haunted house in Fort Worth, and I did that service just, I think it was earlier this year or the end of last year. We had a whole service full, 350 people that were from this cutting edge haunted house, and, most of them did not attend. But afterwards, just by speaking love into the equation over and over again and, then speaking the faith that I have through Jesus that their loved one is with God in paradise. They were it came up afterwards saying, hey. When are your services, and how can we how can we hear more?

Judy: 55:16

So, I think just being aware of who it is that we're speaking with and where they're at in their faith journey. And, you know, another friend of mine, a great minister in our denomination told me one time, he said, you know, when somebody says, I don't believe in God, he always says, he says, well, do you believe in love? And they'll say, well, yeah, I believe in love. And then that gives us the opportunity to open up the conversation. Well, why do you believe in love?

Judy: 55:56

You know, and and helps us helps us make that bridge between and to bring in, you know, the scripture from John that says, the first John that says, God is love. You know? So it every conversation is different. Every conversation is a blessing, you know, and every person I believe has a little bit of God in them that we've never met before until we meet them. And, so it's always a great opportunity, I think, for me to for all of us to learn more about God just as we get to know other people in the midst, whether they're believers or non believers or on the fence or, you know, where they're at.

Judy: 56:46

And I think everything that we say should be, be able to be understood by someone who's not in church proper, in the faith community proper.

T.J.: 56:59

Judy, you were nominated this spring by Red River Presbytery as a candidate for moderator of the 100 and 92nd General Assembly of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. In preparation for this conversation, I I looked at the kinda like the the role or the nature of the office of moderator. And one of the states statements that says, the moderator receives a precious gift and a great opportunity for service in the church. The freedom to go anywhere and to listen to the mind, heart, and spirit of the denomination, and to speak with and to the church. And I thought, wow, that's really well, first of all, it's a long sentence, but it's also a very beautiful sentence.

Judy: 57:57

Oh, my gosh. Yes.

T.J.: 57:58

Yeah. So just to kinda recap since I've hit this with you cold. To listen to the mind and the heart and the spirit of the denomination and to speak with and to the church. If you were elected as moderator of General Assembly and even as a vice moderator, I would imagine this role also carries over. How would you listen to the mind, heart, and spirit of the denomination?

T.J.: 58:28

And what do you think the denomination would speak to you? Oh, my gosh. Let's start with the how, and then we can dream in what maybe the denomination might say, we, the church, might say.

Judy: 58:45

How would I listen? I think I would listen the way that I do with everyone with open ears and an open mind and, just trying to, like we mentioned earlier, trying to put ourselves in the other person's shoes and, find out, you know, what's important to them and, how what they see. What are their visions for the denomination? What are their visions for their future in their churches, in their communities? And, you know, just to just to experience God in all these different pockets of Cumberland Presbyterian Church, you know, in the denomination, I love, love, love, the Cumberland Presbyterian, theology.

Judy: 59:37

You know, it is, this grace based theology. And, coming from what was a high Presbyterian church and is now Presbyterian USA Church. That was my home church. I just the legalistic part of the of Presbyterian USA is, just so vast. And, but ours is just so full of being grace based.

Judy: 01:00:12

And, I just love that. I love that part of us, whosoever shall. You know? It is rich and deep, and I would love to see who all that encompasses across not only the United States, but across the world if I had that opportunity. I just would enjoy, getting to know people and, getting to hear their stories and how God has touched their lives.

T.J.: 01:00:44

Yeah. You wrote, and I'll I'll quote you on this. So this isn't a question now. You have to sit there and hear hear from you. You wrote, I fully embrace the historic and essential, whosoever will theology of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.

T.J.: 01:01:03

What I learned, other denominations' polity is full of legalities and rules, and I was constantly reminded of our grace based theology. What a joy it is to share that when god's love is is the core of everything, that which all other laws hang upon, our lives can demonstrate heaven on earth, peace amidst the conflict, and joy in the midst of pain.

Judy: 01:01:31

That's me. That's what I like to do, to share that with other people. And that's, you know, I get the opportunity to do that here in our own community, but, gosh, the opportunity to do that in other places would just be incredible. I mean, that would be incredible gift.

T.J.: 01:01:54

Well, I ask almost every guest, and I can't think of one that I didn't ask, but I'm sure there's somebody out there who go, oh, you didn't ask so and so. But I'm asking you, Judy, what is your hope for the church, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and the Church Universal?

Judy: 01:02:17

I hope that one day everybody could see all of, just God's gifts that God has given each individual church and us together, and that, the more that we join together and have active conversations that allow all sides to be heard, but decide that we can come back together again under one roof, so to say, under one steeple, so to say, and, just experience that great love that God has for us, because I truly believe that, that, as I said in that quote that that you just quoted me that, love is the core, God's love is the core, and there's nothing more powerful. There's nothing more unconditional. There is nothing that can overcome obstacles better than God's love can, and for everyone to understand that, would break down barriers, not only from denomination to denomination, but I feel like it would break down barriers for those who do not wanna have anything to do with the church at all because they feel like we're hypocrites, you know, once we could all get together and, break down all those barriers with God's love, I think we would see the world as God created it to be and not who we have created it to be.

T.J.: 01:04:06

Yeah. To receive grace. My goodness. When we can be punitive or I got you or let me show you where you're wrong. What, counter cultural it is to receive grace from another human being, which is in a way an extension of grace from God.

Judy: 01:04:34

Absolutely.

T.J.: 01:04:35

What other gift and what greater gift can we share but grace to another human being? Yeah. We're a whole group of human beings. We're everybody.

Judy: 01:04:45

That's right. Yeah.

T.J.: 01:04:46

I think that certainly would transform the the world, and that is certainly a yearning, I think, each and every one of us have.

Judy: 01:04:55

Yeah. What if what if every day, every person decided on, even the smallest decisions with the thought, you know, what would Jesus do? Or how does this glorify God? How does my decision glorify God? And we'd be making a whole lot of different decisions.

Judy: 01:05:22

You know?

T.J.: 01:05:24

Well, I think, this that's a good segue to another question I have is where are you experiencing God's presence now, currently, today?

Judy: 01:05:39

Currently, today. I'm experiencing God's presence through you today, TJ. I am. That's you have been so just so hospitable and a delightful host. And, and I have no It's true.

Judy: 01:05:57

It's true.

T.J.: 01:05:59

I have no brownies. I've got no stars to give you. There's nothing I have of interest to

Judy: 01:06:07

you. No. No. You've got a great spirit that comes through. So I, you know, ever every day, I'm just thankful for what God has given me every day.

Judy: 01:06:20

I've got, you know, I've got a wonderful home that's filled with a beautiful family and, you know, I've got opportunities to share God's love with others and, you know, if it's at the grocery store, if it's at Starbucks, if it's at, you know, if I go down the street and, I see my neighbors, I am just totally blessed, and being blessed at Pathway just is opportunities galore of, being able to share God's love with others, and and that to me is a blessing opportunities.

T.J.: 01:07:05

Judy, thank you. I'm trying to work at receiving compliments and encouragement better. I was sharing with a group that I was meeting with in my travels this weekend. I was like, you know, I almost feel like I operate better and this is not an invitation if people are like yelling or upset at me or something that I said or didn't say or or did or or didn't do. So it's harder for me.

T.J.: 01:07:33

It seems like I operate better. Again, not an invitation for people. For you, for anybody who's listening. Not an invitation, but it seems like it, you know, I'm more comfortable with that as opposed to somebody giving a genuine compliment. So thank thank you.

T.J.: 01:07:52

I'm grateful.

Judy: 01:07:53

You're welcome.

T.J.: 01:07:54

You're welcome. Grateful for it and and I'm enjoying this is the first time we've ever met and spoken. So I'm enjoying our time together.

Judy: 01:08:02

Thank you.

T.J.: 01:08:04

In this time of enjoyment, what aspects of maybe a movie or a piece of art or a book or music that, speaks to you and, impacts your faith?

Judy: 01:08:23

I'm glad you asked that. I have a, I have a painting that, I bought, You know, sometimes when we can, sometimes when we have a death in our family, we can kind of go out in a in a different manner and do some things that might not be so, helpful to us. It's not a healthy way of managing our pain or our grief. And, so I bought a painting. I got on, Facebook and saw one of my high school classmates, who has become a great artist, and she did this painting.

Judy: 01:09:09

And when I heard about the painting, I was like, oh, I need to buy that. And then I bought the painting, and I didn't know what the title of it was at the time. So, she had told me that in this painting, there she had done, like a forest, and she didn't like the forest, so she came back and she painted over it these beautiful flowers of all different bright colors. And, then I got the painting and found out that the paint the title of the painting is transformation. And I bought this painting, right after my first grandson died.

Judy: 01:09:56

His name is Jackson. He lived to be 4 hours old, and he was 1 pound 1 ounce and 11 inches long. And, I had a really hard time when Jackson died, And so, or but I discovered that beauty of knowing that having this vision that God placed in my head, that when I someday get to paradise and my purpose on this earth is over, that Jackson will be one of the first people to meet me and that Jackson will be able to say, Grammy. Hey, Grammy. Look over here.

Judy: 01:10:45

Let me show you around this beautiful place. And so my thoughts of pain were transformed into joy through this vision. The title on this painting that so has impacted me is called transformation. And so, I know that God is in every little detail, including some things that maybe, you know, going out and buying an expensive painting online should have been, but but, but it was meant to be. It was meant to be.

T.J.: 01:11:26

So is it the painting, or is it the title of the painting that speaks to you the most?

Judy: 01:11:35

Well, I think it's I think it's both because, you know, here was this painting that the artist did not like, and, she there was something about it that didn't feel good to her, that, didn't spring life to her. And, and yet she took it and she added to it, and these beautiful blossoms came out of it, beautiful flowers came out of it, and then the title transformation, just totally goes with, here was this beautiful thought of this first grandchild coming into our lives and, then the baby not being able to be born fully and only surviving for 4 hours and knowing that God healed Jackson. That God healed Jackson in that moment and gave him the most beautiful, beautiful life that's more beautiful than any of us will ever experience on this earth. You know, that whole that complete transformation from, you know, from a thought in God's in God's creation to a beautiful little tiny baby that I held in one hand, to the baby being gone, and the vision of him being here on this earth being gone, but then this vision of him living out his entire life in paradise, You know?

Judy: 01:13:26

It just correlated with this painting perfectly, you know, and I thought, so it's not the painting or the title. It's God's message through it, I would say. That is really what has touched my faith.

T.J.: 01:13:46

Judy, thank you so much for sharing of yourself with me, And it has been nice to meet you. This has been a great first interaction. Can you imagine if all of our first encounters, were given this amount of time? Oh, I can't. I I think it would I think it would impact the world Yeah.

T.J.: 01:14:11

In good ways.

Judy: 01:14:12

I think so too. Yeah. I think so too. I I think we would all see God.

T.J.: 01:14:17

Unless Clear. Right. Unless the first unless the first impression doesn't go that well. I guess the alternative could be is, how can I get out of this as quickly as possible?

Judy: 01:14:28

And that's what you're trying to do now. Right?

T.J.: 01:14:35

No. I

Judy: 01:14:36

know. I know. I know. I know.

T.J.: 01:14:38

But yeah. Imagine if we could be this intentional, in our first impressions. And I think to be this be this intentional, sit down with another person and just talk about our faith and our journey. And words led us, and maybe where where could it possibly go? And that's why I enjoy doing this.

T.J.: 01:15:02

I think it's fruitful and meaningful.

Judy: 01:15:05

Yeah. Yeah. God's vision is limitless, Isn't it?

T.J.: 01:15:09

Mhmm. Yeah. Well, thank you, Judy.

Judy: 01:15:12

Thank you, TJ. I appreciate it.

T.J.: 01:15:17

Thank you for listening to The Cumberland Road. If you enjoy faith journeys like Judy's, you can follow this podcast on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcasting site to hear other fantastic journeys of faith from wonderful people. In closing, wanna share what Rick Owen, senior pastor of the Pathway Cumberland Presbyterian Church, had to comment on Judy Madden. He said, god's visions and dreams always disrupt and destabilize the way things are. Supernatural transformation and explosive growth of Pathway Cumberland Presbyterian Church would have never transpired without the gritty, stabilizing, loving, and bridge building leadership of Judy Madden. Thanks for listening.