Justin Richter - Being Reflective and Prayerful
You're listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. The following is a faith conversation with Justin The following is a faith conversation with Justin Richter, the director of Global Missions for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. He has been in this role for 6 months, and I wanted to hear his faith journey and his perception of mission work in this decade. Justin is an all around good guy who came to the Christian faith in his teenage years and has a perspective that the Christian faith is heard and lived in the multicultural context of its practitioner. Enjoy this faith conversation with Justin Richter.
T. J.:You have been in the position of the director of Global Missions in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, What? 4, 5, 6 months?
Justin:Yeah. I think I started at the end of September. And so it's been it's definitely been a learning experience for me.
T. J.:Tell me what that role does.
Justin:I'm still figuring that out. But so, basically, the one of the the CP church is that we have works, churches, mission points, pastors, missionaries in 19 countries outside of the US. And so at some point, somebody decided that there needs to be a point person that is the main connection between the denomination and all 19 of those other countries. And as of now, I'm filling that role. And so it's really one of the things that really excited me about this job was it offered opportunities to grow in terms of my skills and my responsibilities.
Justin:And this job has that in spades. I mean, the responsibilities for this position, it's so diverse. It's different from day to day. It's part pastoral ministry. It's part organizational leadership.
Justin:It's part administrator. And and so every day, I get something new, some new scenario, some new problem to solve, some new person to meet, some new, cultural understanding I have to decipher. And yeah. So I'm getting what I wanted and maybe a little bit more.
T. J.:What have you learned about yourself as you've taken on this role in the last few months?
Justin:Well, you know, I thought I thought and I think I rightly thought that I would be really good for this position. And so I've gotten a lot of confirmation with that in terms of my passion, my heart, my skills, my ability, my perspectives, my history. But one of the things that, I guess, I've I've learned is is that I'm or that I am learning about myself is it is a it there are challenges with this new new job, and part of that is just working remote. It's a completely different experience. You know, when I was doing pastoral ministry, I would get daily interruptions.
Justin:People would come into my office. I would do lunches, you know, 2, 3 times a week, after all care. And with this job, I have relationships all over the world, but I have to be very intentional about those relationships. Things just things just don't happen. I'm not just bumping into people.
Justin:And so part of that part of what I'm realizing is how extroverted I am and how this job, even though it's one of the most social jobs you could ever have, it's just different.
T. J.:Yeah. Yeah. I would imagine you have these spaces in time that are very isolating, because you're not in, at least daily, in a mix of a group of other employees, coworkers, staff. You're working from home. And so those opportunities for collaboration, pitching ideas, you have to be intentional.
T. J.:They they may not naturally occur. You kind of have to set it up. Almost like a meeting to be able to do those things as opposed to just, like, walking from one doorway to another.
Justin:Exactly. Yeah. Like, even this this podcast, I we had to make an appointment for it. Right? And so I have to make a phone call, and then you often don't.
Justin:You really some you sometimes don't have a grasp as to what is going on on the other person's end, so you wanna make conversations a little bit more efficient, a little more to the point. You you get your question answered, and then you you hang up. So so it is interesting. And and it feels, in some ways, a little bit more monastic. Right?
Justin:Like, you're sitting at home, and so you you have a lot more time with God. And and this job has a huge workload. So, I mean, I'm I'm working nonstop, but it's it's me and the world. And so there are a lot of opportunities throughout the day just just to be reflective and to be prayerful and and to to think and meditate. And so I'm that is something that I'm learning about learning, about, like, personally is is how can I adapt to these new circumstances?
T. J.:Mhmm. What have you learned about the mission field in the director's role that you have now that maybe you didn't know before you started in September?
Justin:Oh my goodness. TJ. So part of my story
T. J.:These all sound like loaded questions. They're really not. I haven't had the opportunity to ask you these questions. And full disclosure in case I forget to say this in the intro, Justin and I are coworkers for the missions ministry team of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and I I wanted to corner him to be able to hear his faith journey and to share it with others. So, just to be transparent, Justin doesn't know what all the questions are are coming.
T. J.:So he's he's fielding them as as I throw them to. Anyway, what have you learned, about the mission field?
Justin:So what have I learned about the CP mission field? I've learned everything. So for those who don't know me, I I served as a pastor for 14 years at a church in Albuquerque called Heights Cumberland Presbyterian Church. I was the director of missions and discipleship there. And being in New Mexico, being in Albuquerque, and actually being part of a presbytery, which is Del Cristo that stretches from El Paso to San Francisco, I don't know.
Justin:We're probably the biggest presbytery. You could tell me, TJ, if I'm wrong.
T. J.:Yeah. And then you go up to Colorado.
Justin:Yeah. Colorado.
T. J.:And then down to Texas. So geographically speaking
Justin:Southern California, Northern California. Basically, we cover a a fourth of our country. Mhmm. And so our missions program at our church, we had a pretty good missions program. We we I think we independently supported 8 to 10 different missionaries over my tenure there.
Justin:And and so we we were kind of really invested in what God had called us to do. And and then I also served as the as the chair for our missions committee where I had first initially met you, TJ Mhmm. For our presbytery. And so I did a lot of I was I've always been involved with missions, pastorally speaking. But the funny thing is is being geographically removed from the mothership and when I say mothership, I'm thinking Tennessee.
Justin:Like, I actually had zero idea what we were doing as a denomination when it came to missions. I don't know if that's good to announce over a podcast and publicly, but I knew I every once in a while, I'd get a flyer for the start wall is fun. And then I would see maybe once or twice like these videos. I remember seeing a a video from for the Wilkerson's when they were going down to Columbia. But and it wasn't anything personal.
Justin:It was just you only have so you only have a certain capacity, and and it gets filled up with other tasks and missions opportunities. And so and it's not in your face every day. And so coming into this role, I it's been actually really encouraging and amazing just to see all the different things that we have going on overseas. And, whether that's in Southeast Asia or Central America or, or Haiti, it's it's blown me away. It really has.
Justin:Like, we have such a a great history of global missions. And just to have this opportunity to learn about it, to become part of it, like, I I couldn't ask for more.
T. J.:Well, what brought you to this point in your life and in your faith journey? Do you have an early experience that would be a good starting point that you think was preparing you or pointing you into the position and into the ministry that you're in now? Was there a childhood experience, a a youth experience, young adult, something that happened last year that kind of pointed you into Christianity and then, of course, ministry?
Justin:Yeah. That is a loaded question. I don't think there's a singular experience. I feel like this is my life. So I think it's worth explaining a little bit.
Justin:I I'm the product of a multicultural home. My mom is half Japanese, and she grew up in Japan. She's for the first 20 years or so of her life, she's fluent in Japanese. And she she is a product of a marriage between my grandmother, who's Japanese, and my grandfather, who was in the military. Mhmm.
Justin:And he loved Japan so much that he did everything he possibly could to keep his family in Japan for as long as possible. And so my dad, who grew up on the border of Mexico, he was he's a Texan. He grew up in a small town called Laredo, Texas.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Justin:And so he grew up speaking Spanish, English. Like, he really grew up in a in a pretty diverse environment. And so when he finished school, he joined the military, and he had this heart to see the world. And so the first place that he he was stationed through the Air Force was was Japan, and that's where he met my mom. And so they met, they got married, and then they decided to move, and this is a simple version, but to Germany, and there I was born.
Justin:So I was born overseas.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Justin:I was born in Germany, and I grew up moving quite a bit. My middle school years, I middle school to my freshman year in high school, I lived in Italy. I played on a Italian soccer team. I I I lived off base. And so there's never been a time where I've been able to live in just one culture.
Justin:It's just you know what my kids have experienced? My kids have have they were born in Albuquerque. And now my son, he just turned 14 yesterday. He spent 14 years of his life in one place, in kind of one mode of living, one paradigm. And that's that's something so foreign to me.
Justin:I don't even understand. That that's not I don't even have a category for that. And so so, yeah, that was kind of my upbringing. That was kind of my my childhood. I would say I grew up.
Justin:There's a a term for a for that kind of childhood. They call it being third culture. Mhmm. So any missionary kid would understand that. They they they have roots in a culture that are their parents' cultures, but then they go and they live in a foreign place, and that becomes their home as well.
Justin:And so they never they never fully have an identity of what their parents are, or they never fully have an identity of where they grew up. They kind of exist in between, in that third place. And so that's where I'm comfortable at. I'm I'm kind of comfortable in between worlds. Now when it comes to how I even became a a believer, how I came to know Jesus, that that's part of my story as well.
Justin:You know, my mom being, part Japanese, if anybody knows about the faith and Japanese culture, Japan is a very difficult place for for the church. Not in terms of persecution, but it's just really difficult for your average Japanese person to really grasp what the gospel means and and who who God is. And they just come from a completely different paradigm. Right? Like like, everything is spiritual, but God is God is very imminent in everything of everyday life, or or or the spirits are imminent.
Justin:And so to have this idea that God is a there's a God who's personal and above, and he's the creator, and he's his own person, That's a foreign concept, Brim. And so my mom kind of grew up like that, more agnostic. And then her parents, I would say, were agnostic to atheistic and very critical of the Christian faith. And so my mom I kind of adopted that mentality in a lot of ways growing up. That was that was my starting spot.
Justin:So my freshman year in high school, I I kinda had this mentality, and I had friends who were a couple friends who were Christians. They were involved with this ministry, and they they kept on trying to invite me to do different things and and share their the faith with me. And I'd be like, you know, you're you're just you just believe in Jesus because you're American. Like, you grew up with it. That's okay.
Justin:I'm not against you, but that's just not for me.
T. J.:Oh, cool. So you saw the religious faith, Christianity as a cultural aspect and not something separate.
Justin:Yeah. Exactly. And I just remember being like, oh, I'm part Japanese. Like like, I even went to the library and started checking out books on Buddhism even at a young age. Right?
Justin:Like like because I was like, yeah. I should explore that. Like, that's maybe part of my identity. Mhmm. I remember being in 8th grade checking out a book on on Buddhism, just to explore that.
Justin:Yeah. It was really fascinating.
T. J.:Did you yeah. Did you have good conversations, for teenagers pertaining to hearing about Jesus and then maybe arguing back and saying how it's not for you? What were those conversations like?
Justin:Yeah. Even at that age, I would we would get into I wouldn't say arguments, but discussions. Mhmm. And I just really, like I really just didn't want it, and I really didn't see the need for it. And I thought I had some pretty airtight arguments and just reasoning, and I did.
Justin:There there is logic behind that. And so, really, like, God had to do something to invade my invade my world. And so these same friends eventually invited me on a mission trip to go to Romania, actually. And at that time, and it's still a little bit of the case, Romania had that dictatorship. And through his dictatorship and through some of his policies, it created a huge, issue with orphans.
Justin:They had a lot of kids who were just on the streets. They had no hope. A lot of them, you know, turned to substance abuse to just cope with life. And so we were going there to build build playgrounds. And to do
T. J.:Why were you going there?
Justin:Because they invited me to do it. They they they asked me. They said, hey. We're gonna do this, and I thought, oh, like like, I'd like to go with you. And these were my friends.
Justin:So to do a trip with my friends, to go build playgrounds, and to do something in Romania, that was that sounded like a good idea.
T. J.:Okay. They're doing it from a religious perspective.
Justin:Yes. It was through, it was through almost like a Young Life type ministry. It wasn't called Young Life, but it was a similar type ministry.
T. J.:Alright. And and you're you're doing it to fill a need, hang out
Justin:with friends? Need, hang out with friends, go to Romania.
T. J.:Alright.
Justin:And so we're building these playgrounds and I see the kids and I met Romanian believers. And I I wanna remember I wanted ended up going over to these these believers' houses, and they were they were from that area. And they had they had their family, and they had these, like, this this really tiny apartment. And for from my perspective, it was it was very humbling circumstances. Mhmm.
Justin:But they had this joy in their circumstances that that was just obvious and overflowing, and it was because of Christ. And I I also got to see the way these believers love love these kids in very meaningful, real ways. And then I remember at some point, I I heard the gospel, and it was in a very powerful way. I I still remember this idea of God giving his life for us and what it means for us to respond in kind. And I can't remember the story exactly, but the guy shared a illustration of a a guy who is wandering through the deserts in California, and he was like a 40 niner, you know, searching for gold.
Justin:And he runs out of water, and he's just parched. He's on the verge of death, and then he comes to this pump, water pump that's that's that's attached to a well system. And he starts trying to crank the shaft to get water, and nothing's coming out. And then he notices there's this little jar of water with a lid on it, and there's a little note. And on the note note, it says, you have to pour the water.
Justin:You have to get water, you have to give the water. You have to pour the water into the pump. So this guy is, like, faced with this circums this this dilemma. Right? Do I just drink this little cup of water and that's it?
Justin:Do I satisfy my thirst instantly, but then I know it's only gonna be a moment? Or do I trust in this act of faith pouring this water down this hole, not knowing whether anything's gonna happen.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Justin:And so the guy decides to, to take the chance, to have faith and pour the water into the pump. And sure enough, it primes the pump. It it it hydrates the seals, and all of a sudden, an abundance of water comes out. And I just remember, like, thinking 2 things. I just ended up thinking like, really saying, like, in a very deep way, the reality of Christ.
Justin:I just remember thinking, wow, I've seen that Jesus is real on this trip, that his love and his compassion and that that when he works in this world, the world looks and acts as it should be. And then I also it wasn't like a cheap belief message that I was that I was offered. It was, if Jesus is real, then it's not just something that I believe. It's something I have to give my life to. And it was act of faith that if I trust it, abundant life will return.
Justin:And so I just remember my heart breaking open, and I remember just coming to Romania, one version of Justin, and then leaving Romania a completely different version of Justin.
T. J.:When you returned home from the trip, How were you received by your parents, by your classmates, by your siblings? That changes relationships when you begin one with Christ? How did they do for you?
Justin:You know, I think there was there wasn't there initially initially, I would say, like, there was curiosity. I wasn't, like, in in people's faces. I wasn't even going to I I wasn't even going to church church right away. Right? Like Mhmm.
Justin:Like, actually, there wasn't really a church for me to be involved with. And at that point, when I got back, this was during spring break, I actually was slated to move in 3 or 4 months. Mhmm. So I I ended up just reading the bible on my own, like because I was like I had this idea. I was like, well, I don't want somebody telling me what to believe.
Justin:Like, even as a high school student, I just wanna know what like, to my best of my ability as a high school student, I just wanted to start reading the bible and and getting God I didn't I wouldn't even use that word, getting God's word into me. That that wasn't even I didn't even have words for that. I just wanted to know what the Bible actually said. So I just remember reading and reading and reading reading the Bible on my own.
T. J.:Anything stick out to you at that time that you can remember? Something that was compelling?
Justin:Yeah.
T. J.:Because, I mean, you're coming to a book that you had little to no knowledge. So how did you know where to begin, and and where did what stuck out to you at that time?
Justin:Yeah. I remember reading through the following epistles some somewhere, like, Colossians, and just being really pulled towards this idea that, oh, like, in Christ, I didn't even know really, but in this what that meant. And still maybe, like, we're still learning. Right? Even as I'm a 41 year old adult, but what does it mean for the spirit to produce this new life in me?
Justin:And I saw this idea that life should be different on the other side of Jesus. And so, actually, like, in a lot of ways, I started there were these changes, like like taking every thought captive. I remember reading that and be like, oh, I should take every thought captive. Right? Like like, I should I do need to be more kind to people.
Justin:I do need to be more caring. And and I really do. Like, my internal life needs to to to be different and just as much as my external life. So I do remember I do remember even, like, staying up at night thinking about different passages that that were congruent with those thoughts.
T. J.:What subtle or great changes began to happen in your life, that year and then in the coming years for you as a teenager? Because you left a piece of Justin behind in Romania.
Justin:Yeah. I think, in a lot of ways, actually, I became less materialistic. And I came back and I became, yeah, I just because I just realized, like, what really mattered in life wasn't stuff or things like that, but really was a relationship with God and relationships with other people. And that that's carried through, in some ways, the rest of my life, I think. I mean, when you be when you come to Christ in a in a contact like Romania, amongst people like that, like, you you do real in reading God's word with in reading the Bible with people who who weren't super affluent, like, but were rich in in faith, Like, that really does shape your mentality.
T. J.:Yeah. Regardless of age.
Justin:Regardless of age. Regardless of age.
T. J.:So in these, early movements of coming to the Christian faith and in these growth periods, were you able to find a person, individuals to help you along in this journey? You certainly had to have questions when you were reading the scriptures.
Justin:Yeah. So it's so funny. So I moved to the States, and I moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico, and I had no idea where Albuquerque was. We were supposed to actually move to Florida, Tampa. And then my dad came home.
Justin:He's like, actually, we're moving to Albuquerque. And I was like I was like, where? And he was like, Albuquerque, New Mexico. I was like, is that another country? Are we staying overseas?
Justin:What is this? And so it was like a a shock to me. And but we moved out Have
T. J.:you been to the states before then?
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. I lived in California. So we lived in LA for a little while through my dad's station, and then another area, in the middle of the Mojave Desert. Not probably all that far maybe from Trona.
Justin:We have a church in our Presbyterian Trona, California.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Justin:Probably on not that far from there. But, so I moved back. And then through one of my dad's coworkers, I meet this his son, this one of my dad's coworker's sons, and he's involved with the youth group at this church here in Albuquerque. And he invites me, and I I get involved with this this youth group. And I start I start kind of this discipleship process process through this this youth group.
Justin:But simultaneously, in my high school, I have I started developing this, like, friend network of friends, and they're they're believers. And I I get involved with this ministry, and it was an interesting experience. It really shaped me more probably than actually my youth ministry, and it was called Right Way. And, basically, we started with, like, 8 high school students. It was all high school led.
Justin:Mhmm. All high school led. There were no adults. This was just all internally motivated, and and a lot of these people are still pastors today. And we we meet in this Baptist church, Berean Baptist, Independent Baptist Church.
Justin:And I think, like, the very first session, we watched some, like, video VHS tape on, like, the rapture. Something something wild. Right? We had no idea. We weren't theologically trained.
Justin:We're just like, we want god wants us to do something. Let's watch this video. Yeah. But that small group, within 3 or 4 months, we went from having, like, 8 people, on a Tuesday night to having a 150 to 200 high school students show up.
T. J.:Wow. From one school?
Justin:No. From all over Albuquerque.
T. J.:Okay.
Justin:And, and it's all led. We're all doing the speaking. We're doing the worship. We're doing everything. We had adults, 2 adults, but their job was to do security in the parking lot.
Justin:Like, because we had we had cars getting broken up into. And all of a sudden, this this thing is just going, like, gangbusters. And it wasn't like like, God did some amazing things, like lives were being changed. Like, so many people were coming to know high school students were coming to know Christ. It was, like, this little revival thing that lasted for about 2 years.
Justin:And, but it was also weird, like, because we had no theological training. We were high school students. So, like, you'd get some guy we'd, like, see some guy carrying a cross across the country, and, like, on the the road in front, we'd be like, hey. Do you wanna come and, like, share a little bit? And so this random guy would share, and all of a sudden, we're making every high school student sign a a a pledge that they'll never drink alcohol.
Justin:I I don't know. And so so, like, so God did some crazy, like, amazing things. And in reflection, we're, like, it was all held together by God's grace.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Justin:And but these same group the the same circle of friends that we did this ministry together, Once we got into college, we we saw God do similar things, and we slowly matured together.
T. J.:Okay. So there was a group of you that you kept the momentum, and you went to you went to the same school after graduation.
Justin:Yeah. We most of them us went to UNM. We all felt God's calling us to do ministry there. And we it was wild. We we started a young adult ministry through my our church, which was the church that I I that the same one that that I had the youth ministry that I belong to.
Justin:Mhmm. And we probably had, at some point, 2 we started a ministry called The Well there, and we probably had about 300 college students, young adults coming to this. And it just it was just amazing. Like, you just see when and it wasn't actually I'll say, in the long run, it wasn't really healthy for me, because I felt like all ministry should be that easy. You just open the doors.
Justin:We pray a lot. And like, all of a sudden, like revo, like people come to know Christ.
T. J.:Right.
Justin:And lives are being changed. And, like, I just always thought, like, God made my ministry so easy and, like, and being a leader so easy early on. And, and then you realize when when things aren't easy, you start asking questions of, like, what am I doing wrong here? Like like, I've had the doors open. Why aren't and so it was just an interesting experience.
T. J.:Yeah. That that's probably true. So you would you internalize, like, the outcomes or the lack thereof as in something that you're doing, and not even seeing it as a season. Yeah.
Justin:As a season. Exactly. Now that I'm you you learn that it's a season Yeah. Eventually, but it's but it's hard to go from, from summer to to winter. I'd rather go from winter to summer.
Justin:So but but side but during that same time, when I'm doing that other ministry at UNM, I was involved with a lot of international student ministry because that was always something that was part of who I was. And so I was part actually of a Baptist the Baptist Student Union. I would go there for lunch, and we would do a lot of really cool, ministry partnered with ISI, which is International Students Incorporated. And they would host they would help churches facilitate relationships with international students to help them transition to the United States. And then we would we had, like, a ministry with international students, and it was just awesome.
Justin:We'd have international student talent shows and potlucks. And we just get, like, loads of international students, and we'd have such a good time. And a lot of my my really good friends from that time were from Thailand or, who knows, from Spain and from all over the place. Mhmm. And it was just a really, really special time.
Justin:Fun. And I mean, just as a college student, that was just great hanging out with people from all over the world.
T. J.:So what were you thinking at this time in terms of career? Is it ministry? What what were your studies focused on then?
Justin:Well, I I didn't really have a clear path at that point, but I I really was. I I was drawn to 2 things. I I did a lot of courses in psychology, and then I did actually a lot of courses in religious studies. And so at UNM, it's not it's not a Christian school. It's a secular institution.
Justin:It's a state state school. And so I'm I'm getting doing these bible studies on one side, but then I'm taking these courses, not just in the Christian faith, but, you know, I and and I took classes on Islam, on Buddhism, on eastern religions, and also western religion. So I'm getting this broad this broad understanding of how people see the world in general and how important faith is in shaping their interaction of the world. And and in these these courses, I had a couple professors who their main job, they felt like their main purpose was to try to deconstruct naive college students' faith. And and so talking about the bible and this and this history and you know?
Justin:And so I was like, I'm here on fire saying, god, do all this stuff in this ministry on one side of my life. And then this other side of the my life, I'm, like, getting inundated with reasons why the Christian faith might be inconsistent. And and so it was this interesting, these 2 kind of weather patterns that were just kind of colliding in my life and creating a lot of existential dialogue.
T. J.:My bad.
Justin:But all all the same too, though, there were also really great classes. Like, there was one, professor Burgess, one of my favorite professors. I still remember him to this day. And he taught a a class on the history of Christian thought, And it was 2 semesters, and I took both semesters. And it was amazing because his whole purpose was to start from the earliest theologians and work our way to the modern day.
Justin:And we would just every 100 years, we'd read one author from every 100 years, basically. So I remember reading as a junior in college, Origen. And then we went to we did Augustine. We did Tertullian. And we went so forth all the way to Karl Barth and and Rudolf Bultmann.
Justin:And it was so it was so eye opening to be able to study the Bible, but then also to read these authors, Martin Luther, and just to realize, wow, actually, the the faith is so broad, and we belong to this tradition that's so deep. And it and it really for me, it was so healthy because I kinda grew up in the young, restless, and reform movement. You can look that up on the Internet if you're listening to this podcast. And it kind of a defined understanding of what it means to be a Christian. And to know that there were all these believers before us that had different understandings of the faith, it really allowed me just to, like, hold my faith very humbly.
Justin:And it actually created this deep sense of orthodoxy in me of gosh. Orthodoxy is so broad and beautiful, and, like, there's so many great voices, and these people were so smart, like Augustine, Chrysostom. And, like, they were asking hard questions within their own context, and they were finding these answers. Mhmm. And and so it really, at that that age, it really I was having these some some people inducing doubts, but also finding this deep satisfaction in the historic church, and listening to their voices and really gravitating to them in a lot of ways.
Justin:So that was being shaped in that in psychology too and and pastoral care. Like, but I wasn't sure I wanted to be a pastor at all.
T. J.:But it crossed your mind.
Justin:Well, I was in ministry, and so it was I was doing ministry, and so and I was a leader, so it was there. It really was. Mhmm. And so I yeah. And and so so that was while I was in college, but then also doing international student ministry.
Justin:And then I went on my first mission trip while I was in college. So that was a big deal. My friend, Tina, she had a Thai restaurant at the Baptist Unit Union. She and so she was a believer. She cooked Thai food every day, and she asked me to go to Thailand to do a mission trip.
Justin:And I said, sure. Oh, and, actually, I was actually hesitant. I didn't say sure right away. But I was I was helping with this youth conference at my church, and the focus was on missions. And I just felt like at that conference, I felt like God was calling me to go.
Justin:And so a friend and I, we we went peep God provided the support. We went, and I lived in Thailand for 3 months. And, again, we saw, like, 50 people come to know Christ. Like, it was this really intense time, and, like, I made really good friends on that trip. And I got to see how intentional ministry could be.
Justin:And we saw God do some amazing things. And again, it was, like, 50, 60 people got baptized from our ministry that summer, and they got incorporated and discipled within a church. So they weren't just free floating, but there was a church for them to attend that to help disciple them. And and again, I was like, oh, gosh. You just follow God and everything's easier.
Justin:Like, in terms of well, in terms of fruitfulness. Outcome. Again, the outcome the outcome situation. Right?
T. J.:I'm laughing because, my experience has been different.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. It's so, anyways yeah. And I have stories from Thailand. Maybe I'll share it later in this podcast.
Justin:But, you know, I came back from there. I thought maybe I was called to to missions right there. Right? Like so that was on my mind. And then after that, I I helped start a missions program at at my church.
Justin:And before, it was kind of this, like, hodgepodge, like, where they were, like, giving, like, little tiny support checks to, like, 20 different ministries. Mhmm. But, but we decided or we prayerfully felt like God was calling us to something different to say, how can we personally be connected to missions globally and connect our people to missions globally? In other words, how do we do less better? And so we started this whole this whole missions program.
Justin:And I was just a college student, but I had a team of 6 people on our missions committee. And we developed a relationship with this this Robin All I Achieve is indigenous people in Guatemala. And I was on the 1st trip to do an exploratory, time down there. And we are working with Wickliffe translators who were translating the the New Testament into their Mayan dialect, And it was awesome. We we really it was a healthy thing because we developed this kind of co leadership model with the with the the local leaders there.
Justin:And it was a mutually beneficial relationship. We had fly them up to Albuquerque to just to spend time and speak, And we'd go down there. We helped create certain educational institutions. We asked them, what do you wanna do? How can we help you do this?
Justin:How do we help your church grow? And to this day, there's still a strong relationship between that church and the churches down down there. And so just to be part of the from the ground up of starting from scratch and seeing what it looks like to be involved with in a tangible way, where your average mom or dad or person in the congregation knows the faces and the names and the stories of these people over there, it's it was it was transformative for the congregation. It wasn't just the missions committee. It wasn't just the silos ministry, but it was an effort of the whole church.
Justin:And people had key chains, right, with faces and names, and we're praying for these people. And and and so it was really cool because it was church centric. And you could see how the international missions help contribute to missions locally and and what it means to be involved in, and, in purpose even in your neighborhoods. It it created kind of a, it created just an identity, a mission holistically, not just overseas, but also create equip people for missions local domestically.
T. J.:How did you get introduced and involved in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church? What's that story?
Justin:Man, maybe I'm I I need to tease that out now just so I can understand that. Maybe I need to verbally process. So so I went off to seminary. So I went off to seminary. I moved out to Florida.
Justin:I went to a seminary called Reformed Theological Seminary, which was really healthy for me. So healthy because, you know, it's a confessional seminary. I would say it was, RTS. It's it's unofficially sponsored by, I would say, a more conservative Presbyterian denomination in terms of its orthodox ties, the way it understands scripture, the way it understands just the the orthodox faith. But in in in other ways, it was really great that it was rooted kind of in this historical orthodoxy.
Justin:Like like and I love that idea. It was, like, you know, tied to the historic church. I know some some seminaries, like our seminary, it's ecumenical, and that that has different connotations, and that's for another discussion. But I loved it because it was very diverse in terms of we had Mennonites, we had Baptists, we had Anglicans, and all these people who who were grounded in the historic faith, broadly speaking. But they also had, like, really great modern sensibilities, like, in terms of how do we hold on to the orthodox, How do we hold on to the historic faith, but how do we do so in such a humble way?
Justin:Right? And so their whole purpose wasn't to, like, deconstruct. Even though they did some some of that in, like, some really healthy, positive ways, It just it really allowed me to have some answers question I mean, questions answered and some answers questioned, both, but to do in a way that didn't leave me with nothing. Right? Like like, it left me with a really positive, really biblically grounded, really culturally sensible faith that produced life.
Justin:You know, sometimes I I I've had friends on both sides of the the spectrum. I had a friend who went to this very dogmatic semis probably the one of the most dogmatics dogmatic seminaries in our country. And he couldn't even ask questions, and it's so dogmatic that his faith became brittle, and now he he's atheist. Because there was no no give, no sensibility in in in it. And then I've had friends who've gone to, like, very more progressive very progressive seminaries, and their faith gets deconstructed so much that they they're so broadly Christian that they don't even know what it means in some way to to live this out in a way that has much power to it.
Justin:And so I felt really blessed to be in this place where where it was open minded, but had really good biblical substance. And and it it was a place that it was exactly what I needed. So I'm at the seminary, and, and I'm finishing up my seminary. And I got recruited by a couple different options. One was with this evangelical I I don't even wanna give the organization's name because right now but they they wanted me to do actually a Spanish or either a bicultural or a Spanish speaking church plant with my buddy, one of my one of my best friends.
Justin:Mhmm. And so it was exciting because they wanted us. They were recruiting us, and it was either gonna be in Albuquerque or in Mexico. That was part of the issue is they weren't very clear. But we get started getting into it, and there were some unhealthy organizational dynamics where they were using language like, which one of you is gonna become the alpha male here?
Justin:Which one of you gonna and we're like, hold on, guys. Like, can't we just be co pastors? Like like and there were all these different layers to it that we we prayed, and we just realized, you know, actually, if they're asking us to do this, we need we need to see that this is God's will, and there are way too many red flags. And so we didn't have these options to we didn't know what we're gonna do, but we knew this wasn't God this isn't what God had for us. So we backed out of that.
Justin:And then I remember I was looking on some website. Somebody directed me to a website, and it wasn't even a CP website. I think it was, like, a evangelical Presbyterian website. And there was a a calling for Heights Cumberland Presbyterian as the youth pastor there. And I was like, oh, that's interesting.
Justin:I actually had a little bit of contact with Heights Cumberland Presbyterian through a friend of mine, and I knew they were a biblical church. I knew they were Presbyterian. I felt comfortable in Presbyterian context. And I sent them an email saying, hey. I'm interested in this job.
Justin:What are the next steps? And they responded. They said, I'm sorry. The position's been filled already. Mhmm.
Justin:And I was like, oh, okay. And, and then 2 weeks later, I got a call from the search I mean, I got a email from the search committee, and they said, actually, the person backed out. We're interested. I sent my resume. And about 2 month about 6 weeks later, I'm packing up the moving truck, and I'm moving from back from Florida back to my home place of Albuquerque, New Mexico.
T. J.:Wow. How long did you serve at the Albuquerque Albuquerque church?
Justin:14 years.
T. J.:14 years. Wow.
Justin:Yeah. So I started doing youth ministry there. And I did that for about 4 years, and I got saw that was really awesome. God was so good. And and I went through some hard things, but that's life and that's ministry.
Justin:The church went through some hard things, hard transitions, especially because Larry Moss, he was a pastor there for 35 years. And I started the month after he retired. So I was there during a chapter where the church was trying to refine itself and and mourn and revision and find peace. But in regards to youth ministry, it was great.
T. J.:So, Justin, what is it about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church that you have found so attractive and fulfilling?
Justin:Yeah. Great question. Some in interesting answers. I've had to reflect upon that. 1st, I feel like this
T. J.:You You mean reflect prior to the podcast or before the podcast?
Justin:I think it's it's it's a question I've had to ask myself multiple times, actually.
T. J.:Well and and I'm asking you because of your exposure, you know, some people have grown up in serve within the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in a different phase or stage of your life. So you have this perspective of being able to go, oh, this is what has drawn me to this, reformed body, this Cumberland Presbyterian Church. I'm always interested to hear from those who have come from different places because you bring great insight and perspective.
Justin:Yeah. That's a really so thank you. That's a that's a really good question. 1st, it's not like I was looking through a catalog of denominations, and I I felt like the CT church was just glowing in a page.
T. J.:That's funny.
Justin:Off the off the page, and it was just reflecting and being like, this is my true church. Like like, that's not I honestly, I knew Heights was a good church. They offered me a position, like and I accepted it. And I I don't even know when I accepted the position if I fully knew who the Cumberland Presbyterians were. I didn't know.
Justin:I didn't even I don't even know if I knew the church was Cumberland Presbyterian, actually. And so I I get this position there, like, I so it's funny the way Heights Cumberland Presbyterian Church was even on the sign. We we we got this for a while. We had to change our rebrand our logo to make it clear. People always thought our name was Heights Cumberland Presbyterian Church, as if as if the name of the church was just Heights Cumberland.
T. J.:Oh, yeah.
Justin:And so I even had that, like, mentality. But what I came to know and appreciate about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, there's some funny things. Okay. Is it gonna sound bad? Maybe it is.
Justin:I don't know. But something coming coming from certain backgrounds, like, certain denominations like like, some denominations, they feel like, oh, we are the denomination. Like, we are the church in its purest form. I have no there's no thought that crosses my mind about being Cumberland Presbyterian or being part of this denomination or in conversations with any one individual where where people feel like we are the church. We're not.
Justin:Like like like, we don't have the most perfect theology. That's okay. Right? Like, we have a good confession. I like our confession.
Justin:It's really simple and beautiful, and it's it's it's actually a great confession. But is it the most pure distillation of God's word ever in the history? No. It's not. Right?
Justin:Like like and are we the biggest denomination these days? No. Do we have, like, the best systems in place? We don't. We're we're not perfect.
Justin:We're not great, and it's good to actually it's very freeing to be part of a denomination that just exists for the sake of the gospel, not for itself. And I hope, actually. At least that's my experience, like and I know from an outsider. Now I I'm coming to know from insiders' perspectives, like, there's a lot of internal kind of genealogies of, like, and it's beautiful, of, like, my great grandfather was Cumberland Presbyterian and pastor. And and there's this whole, like, this whole medieval construction of, like, genealogies of Cumberlands, Mary and Cumberlands, and incorporating.
Justin:And that's good too. That but that's not the reason why I joined. Whatever. Maybe my great grandkids will be, like, 5th generation CP. The other thing that I did appreciate right away was I came in 2009 almost right after they had a general assembly in Japan, and that was amazing to me.
Justin:I was like, woah. Like, we have churches in Japan, and they're hosting general assembly. Mhmm. Like like, we're not a u at my impression of that moment was, like, we're not a US centric, like, church. We have we are, like, international.
Justin:I thought that was great. And then what really kept me as a CP wasn't the denomination. Like, it wasn't. It just wasn't. Like like, I didn't know much about our denomination being in Del Cristo.
Justin:I love my presbytery. My presbytery is like was like my family. Like like, we have an amazing presbytery. Like, the spirit of our presbytery, highly unified, like like, so many different people. It was just it's awesome to have, like, 2nd and third generation Asian believers who were in the tech field starting companies up in San Francisco, like, doing fellowship with 1st generation Spanish speaking immigrants in El Paso.
Justin:And we're like a family together. Like, we show up and there's, like, joy. We can go through these hard things, and, like, we're mutually motivated for mission. And and, like, to me, like, that was a home. It is.
Justin:Del Cristo is like a home. And so that was a big sticking point for me. I had opportunities. After 4 4 years in the youth ministry, I got recruited by another denomination to do a church plant in Florida. And and, like, I I had to, like, kinda weigh that out, and I I I felt like God's call on me wasn't done in this this denomination.
Justin:So I feel like the CP denomination is the greatest denomination, though, but it's my home, and it's my family. Mhmm. And it's where God has called me to. I I really I really do believe that. And and the more I explore, like, even in this position, working people with people like Joan Hairo and Esperanza and then seeing the work that's in Asia and Hong Kong, meeting Jackson Sui who who's in Macau, and he has ties to our presbytery.
Justin:Like, it's pretty awesome, some some of the relationships that that we have and connections. Del Christo can can the elements that I like about and love about Del Christo actually can be found on a global scale. And that's kind of that's kind of my heart for that.
T. J.:It's been my experience as well is what's been created in Del Cristo Presbytery during the, presbytery meetings is just a snapshot of the denomination that large. Yeah. We come together. You're able to share and equip one another for mission and for ministry, worship together, but also fellowship as well. And part of that is the geography forces you to to have to do that.
T. J.:There isn't driving to 45 minutes to attend a meeting and then returning back. You have to be intentional and make plans to be a part of the presbytery. And so I've always enjoyed, going out to be a part of that presbytery, to to observe, but but also to be incorporated and engrafted into that presbytery, which takes time.
Justin:It does. It takes time.
T. J.:Justin, what are you reading right now that you would like to share and you recommend to the listeners of Cumberland Road?
Justin:What am I reading right now?
T. J.:Well, not at the moment, but because we're having a conversation. But something that has been in your book stack that, in a recent read or one that you're in the middle of that you would recommend.
Justin:Gosh. So, I mean, there's some a lot of books that I I've enjoyed throughout the years, and there's some books that I've read recently. I mean so going back to, like, the college situation, things that I read during that time, something that I I always return back to is, Ponce's by Blaise Pascal. I I think he speaks to the modern heart so well. Like and for those who don't know Blaise Pascal, he was a famous mathematician.
Justin:He was a savant with mathematics and physics and all these different things, but he had this he had a few experiences that gave him this deep devotion for to to Christ and to to to his kingdom. And so he really reasoned through reason. And how does reason like, what what's the beauty of reason? Like, there's he probably few individuals in history that are more reasonable than him, the way his brain would just calculate things. But he also saw, like, the limitations of reason.
Justin:Mhmm. And he saw the necessity for faith and and doubt and all these different things. And he really not only what he said, but how he processed things really has shaped me to today, especially in in the context of North America and in the context of my upbringing, in the context of New Mexico, which isn't the most Bible Belt place in the world, He he really he really kind he really calibrated my my my faith. Another good one for my context is I I like James k Smith. He's out of Michigan, out of Calvin College, and he's he's a philosopher, theologian, does a lot of work in this field called phenomenology.
Justin:And he he writes some really good things on liturgy and how liturgy is what shapes our hearts. And we are he's very Augustinian in his approach. So it's not about our intellect that drives and changes our lives. It's about our what we love. It's not what we think.
Justin:It's about what we love. And so he really kind of overlays this idea of liturgy and says all everything from Walmart to sporting events to the church, all have these liturgies that shape our passions and our love. Right? Like like, I mean, the national championship football game was college football game was just on TV. How many liturgies were happening throughout those events?
Justin:Like, people show up. They have go Michigan signs or whatnot. Mhmm. And where do these people show their devotion? They have pilgrimages to these events.
Justin:They pay 1,000 of dollars Mhmm. To celebrate. They have they have their holy costumes. Right? Like like, their whole life is oriented.
Justin:The way they organize time is around these events and these situations. And so he's really good at, like, he does just from a sociological perspective of saying, how is the church taking these liturgies seriously? How do we understand time as believers? And it's really practical. It sounds philosophical, but it's not.
Justin:But he also has a really good book where he summarizes Charles Taylor, who's a Canadian writer, and he and he has a book that summarizes Charles Taylor's book called The Secular Age. But James k a James k Smith's summary of it is called How Not to be Secular, And it's really good, like, for us in a North American context, just to realize, like, you know, people are becoming more secular these days. It's not as dramatic as I think people think it is. It'll never be in the US, but it really shows how we today, like, in the great de church de churching, which is another good book, my actually, friend from my church wrote the book for my he was a he went we went to the same church in Florida and same seminary. And, and how people who are losing their faith aren't really losing their faith.
Justin:They're adopting a different faith. And so, really, secularism has its own unproven beliefs, its own value system. And so, really, that book really helps help me understand that when people are are becoming something, they're becoming something new, but it has just as much faith involved. And in fact, like, often, that new faith is more dogmatic in many ways and culturally shaped than the Christian faith. It's it's really good.
Justin:It's really it's not a super hard read. And then for the fun side of it, I love, Everything Sad Is Untrue by Daniel Nayiri. And he's a Iranian immigrant to the US, and it's about the story of how his family ended up his mom and his sibling ended up in the US, and he went from Iran to living in the bible belt of Oklahoma. Oh. And and it's, like, such a good read, and it's like a tearjerker.
Justin:Like and it involves faith. It involves faith in Christ because that actually was the catalyst for his mom to escape Iran and come to the US. Mhmm. Is it because she had a vision of Jesus, and she came from a prominent family in Iran that was tied to the the caliphate. And so that's a big no no.
Justin:And so, like, they had to escape because of their faith in Christ. And so there's this whole narrative of tragedy, tragedy, tragedy. And just like the gospels, it has a gospel overlay, where a singular redemptive moment can flip its world upside down and redeem every tragedy up that that you've gone through up to that point. It just takes a singular redemptive moment, And it's amazing. I love it.
Justin:It's creative. It has a lot of story like, great storytelling, a lot on Iranian culture, and a lot of about Oklahoma culture too. So it's a fusion. It's fun. It's one of the best reads I've read in
T. J.:a long time. Justin, I have one more question for you.
Justin:Sure.
T. J.:There are a lot of young Justins out in the world right now who are going to the library or they're doing their search for their identity or the ability to connect to something or someone larger than them, what wisdom, what encouraging words would you share if they happen to run across this podcast?
Justin:Yeah. Don't don't be afraid of being open minded. Don't be afraid of asking the questions. Don't be afraid of looking at details about things. Like my best friend, he's Muslim.
Justin:Right? Like like and I've read the Quran twice. I read it in detail. We've had talks. I know his I know his faith really well.
Justin:I know about, like, in my undergrad now, I've read the Dhammapada several times now. And and what I would say is actually let that search lead you to Christ. We don't have to be really black and white about things. Right? Like like like, part of part of what we believe is there's one Lord, one God, one savior, Jesus Christ.
Justin:And, historically, in the church, this was so helpful to me throughout time. Right? Is is we believe that in the human heart, we are created to find this fulfillment in Jesus, whatever culture that we come from, whatever background that we come from. And so, like, for example, in the early churches, if you look at these Eastern Orthodox churches, you see, like, painting, like, Socrates' search for truth was merely a a arrow that pointed to our need for Jesus. Right?
Justin:All these questions he asked pointed towards their need for for Jesus. And in the same way, like, I when I was in my undergrad, and I still read some of these books today, Like, there was a Japanese theologian, and he was very much into Shintoism, right, this spiritualism. And a missionary came by and gave him this this this bible. He started reading. And and all he was like, finally, all these questions that my faith produced in me finally have found their answer in in Christ.
Justin:Mhmm. And so, like, if somebody rent checks out a book from Buddhism, like like, in some sense, like, Buddhism, like, reveals certain things. Right? Like like, how the temporary how suffering is real, and and any hope we put in our ourselves for, in this current time is going to lead us to disappointment in the long run because everything is mutable, and it changes, and it dissolves. And so, yeah, if you have desire, then you're gonna ultimately, it's gonna lead you to suffer.
Justin:That's not unscrewed. Right? But the beautiful thing is is that the gospel says that's true. Right? Like like, die to yourself, but be but also says be raised in Christ.
Justin:And so, like, Paul would say that would probably be, like, a half truth, but that we are meant to actually have desire for that which doesn't change. Right? And that the temporary is meant to produce a hunger for the eternal. And so in one way, I I like to say is, like like, we have our old testament that points to that leads on the sour note of longing for a messiah. But I think there's actually, like, 10000 old testaments out there, right, that produce this desire.
Justin:And when you think through it, it leads us to to to the savior, Jesus, God in the flesh, who's came to make sense of all human longings, whether you're Jewish or you're Buddhist or you're Shinto or even secular. Right? Even secular. Like, look at our value system today. We love diversity.
Justin:It's on every, like, soft drink commercial and deodorant commercial. It's everything has to be a diverse but we have no means. We don't have any internal capital to actually see diversity flourish. We love it. We know that's longing, but we don't have the but we we don't know how to get there.
Justin:And that's but the beauty of the gospel is that in Revelation chapter 7, for example, you have every nation, tribe, and tongue coming around the throne saying, worthy is the lamb who was slain. Like like, we actually have the spiritual capital to both embrace the beauty of different cultures, languages, but we also have this thing called grace, which allows us to actually love and accept people who are different, and to to to be have diversity and unity. Right? Instead of unity and diversity, that's the gospel of secularism. We say, no.
Justin:Like, Jesus is the lynchpin that ultimately creates the environment where actually true diversity happens. And, again, as a CP, we have that happening here. We are slowly emerging. Hope hopefully, I don't know how long it will take as a global church, but we're actually seeing tangibly, globally in reality, the fulfillment of what this world really wants even in secular culture. Right?
Justin:Like, it's awesome. And so don't be afraid of being open minded. Don't be afraid of jumping into the details of what actually these these faiths believe. Don't be afraid of their texts. Don't be afraid of their communities, but also realize, like, like, I think if you go deep enough, you actually will see that Jesus and the church are the fulfillments and the longings of of whatever manifestation of faith or doubt or secularism or atheism or whatnot.
Justin:Like, God is there, and he if you if you truly are inquiring, at this point in my life as 41 year old with gray hair, like, I've seen it over and over again. I've seen seen people come to know Christ through these these means. And, hopefully, people who are Christians, their faith leads them to Jesus, because that's not always the case either. Right?
T. J.:Justin, before we got on mic, we're you were wondering exactly what you were going to talk about, what you were going to share. Yeah. And you have no you've had no problem opening up, your life, your thoughts, and your ministry and your journey with me. And I appreciate that. I was looking forward to hearing it.
Justin:Oh, yeah.
T. J.:Because I've only got little bits in here and there. I guess we've run into each other. We're looking at 10, 12 years now. Yeah. Yep.
T. J.:So it's been it's been a privilege to be able to sit down with you and hear your story, hear your journey in fullness.
Justin:Yeah. Thank you. There's more, but, maybe if you're out there, you can always talk to me at general assembly and or whatnot or try to find me somewhere in Albuquerque, and I'll continue that conversation.
T. J.:Thank you, Justin.
Justin:Alright. TJ, thank you.
T. J.:Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road. Blaise Pascal, mathematician, philosopher, and inventor wrote, people almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on a basis of proof, but on the basis of what they find attractive. Thanks for listening.
