Cumberland Road

T.J.: 00:05

You are listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. Reverend Karen Schmidt is a chaplain at a senior living community in Denver, Colorado. In our conversation, she shares her faith and talks about finding common ground in a book club, becoming a Christian in her early twenties, and how becoming a mother has informed her approach to life and faith. Enjoy this conversation and faith journey with Reverend Karen Schmidt.

T.J.: 00:58

Karen, we had a conversation 3 plus years ago and we were talking about forming a group based upon a shared book, a shared interest. Now, it's been a little while since we had that conversation. So take me back to that time of you were searching and exploring, pulling people together with the intent of reading a book, discussing it, and maybe even sprinkling some faith reflections into it?

Karen: 01:39

So, I think it was about when we first really took off the book club itself, probably, gosh, I think it was maybe 6 years ago, 6 or 7. And it was, it came kind of out of an effort to have a discussion group about life issues and to bring people from all backgrounds together. And, you know, yeah, sprinkle some faith reflections in there and really try to find some common ground and really to show other people what Christ followers are like, rather than what they see on media and what they've been told or you know, and and, you know, and rightly so some there's some some things that that people think about Christ followers that, yeah, you know, I I see where they get what they're talking about. But, you know

T.J.: 02:47

We've we've earned we've earned parts of our reputation.

Karen: 02:51

Absolutely. But I think the important piece of it was, and for me in all of that, was to help them to know that even though Christians make those mistakes, or have those little quirks or whatever you wanna call them. God is still God. And he is still perfect and loving and, caring and accepting of everybody. And so that's kinda what my goal was, but it kinda fell flat after maybe a year or so.

Karen: 03:30

So I thought, you know what? Let's do something a little more specific, a little more focused on, like, already common ground of people who like books, which I love books. And so I was and I was kind of excited about it, about being able to talk about books with other book nerds. And so, so that was pretty cool. And and in that moment when I was putting this together and kind of formulating this, the Lord said to me, Karen, this is a group where I want you to feel like you can be you, that it's okay for you to share who you are and who you are in Christ.

Karen: 04:19

That was extremely important. The Lord did not want me to shy back from that, but also to come with the agenda of I want everyone to be able to be comfortable in who they are. Whatever their opinions, wherever they've been, whatever they think, whatever whatever they say. I want people to be accepted for their opinions and their experience and and everybody like I was telling you before we started, everybody has a story and there's a reason why people have the opinions they do or the feelings they do about something. And so, that is where we started.

Karen: 05:00

We've had, you know, rotating membership. Some we were all the way up to maybe 9 people. We've been down to 2. Now we're at about 4, and it kinda goes with, you know, everybody's lives are a little bit different and they, you know, they come and go as as life moves. And so, but there's been one woman that has been in it the entire time, and her name happens to be Karen as well.

Karen: 05:30

And, I don't know if that is somehow, you know, meaningful, but, I'm called Karen senior. She's Karen junior. And, and the reasons is is that I'm the oldest one in the book in the book club. The rest of them are all in their twenties and I am over 50. And, and it's really interesting because I get to learn what their generation and it makes me sound really old when I say their generation, but it's okay.

Karen: 06:03

I am mature and seasoned. But it's really beautiful to see their different, the different take that they have on life and the way that they look at things. And I learned so much from their lives, what they share, and I'm learning so much about what it means to be different in a lot of different ways. I'm I consider myself pretty different, but I've, you know, book people are there's a lot of different people in that that grouping book book club members. There's a lot of different people with a lot of beautiful stories.

T.J.: 06:50

Alright. I have so many questions.

Karen: 06:52

Okay.

T.J.: 06:53

I was jotting them down as you were talking. Okay. So how do you create a space, an environment where not only can you be yourself, but allow others to feel comfortable in being themselves and sharing of themselves, not only about the book that you're reading, but also other aspects of of your life. What secrets, and what experience do you have to share with other people who may want to start a book club or a gathering or a worshiping community, and yet they don't quite know where to begin, what to start, and and maybe what the theme is in terms of their conversations and study and gathering of people.

Karen: 07:50

Well, I think the first thing, I know it sounds sort of basic, but the first thing that we, I I did and I think we always need to do is go to prayer into prayer about what is it that God wants to accomplish? In you doing this, I mean, if he's given you the the fire for it, then he's got a plan for it. And so I think it's best to spend some time in prayer about that, so you kinda know what you're going what you're looking for. And I think the big thing too is in the midst of all of that, remember that it's the Holy Spirit that does whatever is done. You show up.

Karen: 08:40

You be the person you are. You try to be obedient to the scent the sense that you get from the Holy Spirit, and you don't have to change a single person. You just have to show up and be who you are. And that's the I think that is really huge. People can tell when you're being fake.

Karen: 09:00

It doesn't take that long and especially this generation, they have 6 senses about fake people. And so you gotta you gotta show up willing to be real, willing to be yourself, and willing to allow willing to be wrong, actually. Being willing to be wrong about what you believe or being willing to be corrected on what you, you thought you knew. It's really kind of a, I guess, an attitude of humility even though to even say that sort of sounds like I'm not humble. So, you know, you know what I mean?

T.J.: 09:42

Yeah.

Karen: 09:43

But because I know I'm not Let's put it that way. I've I've got my issues, but, I think that is the big the big thing, being real. There's a Toby Mac song that talks about if it's real, you gotta show it because if it's not, they're gonna know it. And I think that, and if you don't feel like you're ready to be real maybe you just need some more time with the Lord and growing in some self awareness

T.J.: 10:15

Mhmm.

Karen: 10:16

About who you are. And then opening the door for truly, truly listening. Not just waiting for your opportunity to speak.

T.J.: 10:28

Like I'm doing now. But I have so many but I have so many questions to ask you. How did you gather a group of primarily women, or is it all women? Yep. How did you gather a group of women who are much younger than you?

Karen: 10:49

Well, I used to, volunteer at a coffee shop. It was a non profit coffee shop, and other volunteers and regular customers I just started talking to Mhmm. And getting to know them and, made friends with them. And, you know, when they learned I was doing a group, they wanted to join, you know, because coffee shop people often become are often kinda nerdy anyway. And, I mean, they're just, you know, they're just academics that sit there and think all day and drink coffee, and they're really cool.

Karen: 11:24

And, but anyway, so that's kind of where I began, and really the the other Karen, because it fed her so much, she spread the word, And I truly I don't know how it fed her. I I don't again, that's that's something I think supernatural that happened. I I don't know other than the fact that, you know, I mean, I guess she and I connected, I think. You know, we connected, I over a lot of not just about being Karens, but about just life. And, and she's very different from me.

Karen: 12:07

She's she has she is of a different nationality than I am. You know, we look nothing alike. I mean, all of things were just completely opposite, but yet we seem to be able to communicate. Maybe we both have a really wacky sense of humor or something, but I think we both went into it too with this idea of like, gosh, let's just be ourselves. Let's try that.

T.J.: 12:35

Mhmm.

Karen: 12:36

And then when people started to come that were invited by her pretty much most of them, they started to give as you know, show as much of themselves as they felt comfortable. And one day, gosh, it was a number of years ago, one woman shared something very, very personal and she after she did it and she was accepted, completely accepted for it, she said, I don't know why I shared that.

T.J.: 13:13

And I

Karen: 13:13

thought gosh that's that's kind of a holy moment.

T.J.: 13:16

Mhmm.

Karen: 13:16

That's sacred ground right there. You know? And, you know, none of our attitudes toward her changed. We just kept caring about each other and reading the books and actually talking about the books, and, and it was yeah. I mean, it it was beautiful.

Karen: 13:40

And, you know, and and the fact that people can come and share as much of themselves as they feel comfortable and not feel pushed to do so is is really beautiful, and I'm grateful for that.

T.J.: 13:54

Okay. A 2 part question, both secular and sacred. What genres of books do you read? How do you choose them? And where and when does faith come into the book club conversation?

Karen: 14:16

So, I actually just chose randomly a book that I when I started, a book that I wanted to read, which was about Winston Churchill of all people. I don't know why, but I wanted to learn about Winston Churchill. So that was the first book we read. But from there, I started asking people, what do you what would you like to read? You know?

Karen: 14:37

Is there a book that you wanted that you wanna read or that you've already read that you think would be a good book club book and you really like to discuss it? And we try to mix up the genres as much as we can. I haven't done really any I've only maybe done one Christian book, but there are so many books that have Christian themes without people really knowing that they do. And so I have brought up faith be again, going back to who I am. And so when it when it is applicable, I don't try to, you know, pull Jesus out of the air, you know, and try to say, well, stick, insert Jesus into every conversation.

Karen: 15:23

No. I don't do that. I I try to, when it's applicable, I'll say this is how this question about this particular thing hit me. Because for me, my faith in God, whatever it might be Mhmm. Because that's that's who I am and that's what's important to me.

Karen: 15:48

And if I want if I'm accepting everybody else, they need to accept me too.

T.J.: 15:55

Mhmm.

Karen: 15:56

I'm not I'm trying really hard never to water down who I am, which is sometimes hard because sometimes we get into some discussions that, you know, I am in disagreement, like disagreement with somebody and I have to be super careful how I approach those discussions, so that it doesn't come off as judgmental or, any of the other names we get called.

T.J.: 16:31

Yeah. Well, Karen, you haven't always worked in the coffee shop, and you haven't always led a book club. What else helps identify who Karen is and what Karen is about?

Karen: 16:52

I think what has been most important, I guess, if you wanna think of words that might describe me, we'll go we'll start there. Yeah. Is learner. Compassionate, encourager, passionate, nurturing. And a lot of these words are connected to my being a mom actually.

Karen: 17:34

And I think of those those words started to really come out when I became a mom and was living into that. Because when I've I became a mom when I was 25 and, we decided that I was gonna stay home with the kids and, and I was glad to do that. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. Maybe apart from Hebrew. I'm not sure.

Karen: 18:01

Well, there's homeschooling. I homeschooled for a while. That was pretty hard too. Mhmm. That was probably harder than Hebrew.

Karen: 18:10

But all those words are connected to my being a mom, but then also I am a lover of God. And I came to faith about 3 years before I became a mom, I think it was. And I am so grateful to God for that. Because I wouldn't have had a clue how to love my children before that. I wouldn't have had a clue and so, one of one of the things I guess is on my description list of Karen is I'm a mom, like, I am a mom.

Karen: 18:57

I mean, they're all in their twenties now, but I am a mom, and I can't really turn that off that well. It's not a switch, just something you become.

T.J.: 19:10

What do you think the distinctions are between you being a Christian and and a mother? I mean, you made a a delineation about your parenting and being a mom and imagining what that was what that might look like if you weren't a Christian. So expand on that a bit. What would that have looked like when you first became a mother? What

Karen: 19:40

is the Without Christ?

T.J.: 19:41

Yeah, what is the distinction?

Karen: 19:44

I think the distinction came when I in how I became a Christian. I was, I grew up going to church so that I knew who Jesus Christ was and all of that, but I really rejected that when I went away to college. And probably because I saw a lot of hypocrites, which I don't like that word, but that's that's where I was. And so when I came to Christ, I had been invited to a Christian 12 step group, And it were all, there were all these people there that were there for a number of reasons for addictions, etcetera. And I don't know that I had really addictions in the most basic or traditional way.

Karen: 20:33

I guess I probably was addicted to people. I was probably very codependent. So that's that's a fairly significant addiction that I think really does stick with you your whole life. But I, so I met all these people, and it was it was Christ centered. And what what hit me was that all these people had really hard stories.

Karen: 20:57

I mean, we were put into these small groups and these people would share these hard stories, and yet their faith in Christ informed everything they did in their healing, in their processing. Even when they messed up, they just, you know went right back to Jesus saying, oh, I'm so grateful for his grace. You know, God helped me. And I thought these are some real people. They're real and they they're messed up.

Karen: 21:35

Like me, they're messed up. But they love Jesus. And they know somehow God is going to get them through. They don't know how, but somehow he will. And so one morning I woke up and I said, I think I love Jesus.

Karen: 21:58

It wasn't a lightning strike or, Jesus didn't walk on water to me. I just realized that through watching all these beautiful, broken people seek him in their healing that I realized I was seeking him in my healing as well. And so going into being a parent, the I knew I needed to be healed. I knew I didn't have all the answers. I knew I had I had no idea what I was doing.

Karen: 22:36

They don't come with instruction manuals. Have you noticed? Like, I mean, the Bible is helpful, but it's it's, you know, you can't go to the index and

T.J.: 22:44

say, what

Karen: 22:44

do you do when they throw a tantrum? True. True. You know, you

T.J.: 22:49

don't you can't

Karen: 22:50

do that.

T.J.: 22:52

But And

Karen: 22:52

so

T.J.: 22:53

I think they they are pretty good teachers in and of themselves though. They can teach you a lot.

Karen: 22:58

Oh my goodness. Oh, and and that's exactly that's exactly part of my testimony in that because I learned a lot about who God is as I tried to be a mother, you know, and how they just these kids would say some of the most profound things to me, and I would realize, man, I'm a mess. I am a mess. I'm a mess. But you know what?

Karen: 23:31

We made it. We fell out of the canoe a few times, but we made it. And, yeah, and and so I think that is that's part of I mean, that's that's a big part of who I am as a as a mom, Because of so much of what God taught me in that time, when I was trying to raise them and trying to teach them who he was, you know, and and model for them who he was, who he is. That was a big piece of, of my spiritual formation, if you will. So yeah.

T.J.: 24:18

What is it about the Christian faith that you really, really identify with that just keeps you grounded and rooted, centered, whatever phrase or word that term that you might want to use?

Karen: 24:38

I think 2 words come to mind when I think of that, that grounding. And the first is healing. God is my healing healer and redemption. And that word redemption I apply as God uses everything. God uses everything in our lives.

Karen: 25:12

He doesn't waste a single thing. He redeems the broken pieces. He's like that, that commercial, you know, with the, with the rodeo guy putting the, this broken vase together or something. And he talks about the Japanese art of putting vases together. But it's, it's just this, it's like God just takes every piece and he just glues it back together and it ends up being more useful, more beautiful, more And that's, that's what I'm, I'm living my life on.

Karen: 25:52

You know, There's a lot of broken pieces in me, and a lot of things that have been put back together because of him, because of my faith, because he hasn't left my side. He has he has changed me. He's redeemed all of the ick. I know he's got more ick to take care of. But

T.J.: 26:18

Well, I mean, as you mentioned before, I mean, not just you, Karen, but I mean, we're just a messy creation. We're beautiful and messy at the same time.

Karen: 26:30

Mhmm.

T.J.: 26:31

We were talking off mic before we got started about the power of story, and we're swapping, like, little stories that happened to us earlier in the day. What what do you think is the let me think. Hold on. Let me think about what I wanna say. We were talking about how our lives maybe just aren't one big long story, but maybe it's little stories put together.

T.J.: 27:07

So what little stories help shape you and to the calling of the ministry that you're now a part of. So walk me through that journey, that story of your life, and how you arrived to being a chaplain. Not that you've arrived arrived, but you're currently a chaplain.

Karen: 27:33

Right. Right. My current state of being. Well, I think, you know, backing up to what I have just said previously, well, maybe we can back up a little further without it being too much, my autobiography. But my my okay.

Karen: 27:55

My 21 year old, she has no patience for my stories. She's like, mom, are you about done?

T.J.: 28:01

Uh-huh.

Karen: 28:01

Mom, are you about done? I'm like, no. There's a really good part coming. I promise there's a good part. So I'll try to do this.

Karen: 28:08

I'll try to condense what I'm about to say.

T.J.: 28:10

Alright. Karen Karen

Karen: 28:12

Yes.

T.J.: 28:12

This is your moment. This is your moment to shine. You now have a platform and a median. Okay. Take care.

T.J.: 28:20

Okay. And share more and more.

Karen: 28:23

And this this recording is gonna be my daughter's Christmas gift. There we go. So I think it really backs up to growing up in an alcoholic home with, a mom that really didn't want me. And, I was the youngest of 5 kids and she didn't really want any of us. And so it was kind of this sort of alcoholic abusive situation with my dad.

Karen: 28:57

And he died when I was 8, but, the my mom was just a wounded bird. She was just really was. And so, wounded people raise wounded people. And so I I saw so much pain in her, in the way that she treated me and the rest of us. I always felt like I was a depository for her of her angst.

Karen: 29:33

And

T.J.: 29:34

she she recognized that back then, or was it reflecting back?

Karen: 29:41

I'm reflecting back mostly. Yeah. I mean I realized what I sensed as a small child is that there was something wrong with me. Mhmm. So I, you know, I I brought it in indoors instead of outdoors.

Karen: 29:57

I brought it in, and I saw there's something wrong with me why my mom doesn't like me. You know, and so just moving through that, just this idea of woundedness and and the need for healing and believing that there wasn't healing for me. There wasn't healing for me because it was my issue. It was my fault for just being, just being, being in the way, just being. And so as I kind of went through that into teenage years and all of that, and, you know, my mom was a widow.

Karen: 30:40

She raised there were 3 of us left in the house when my dad died. So she was raising us all on her own and running a farm. And I mean, she really she had a lot on her plate. And, and so I just grew up kind of, you know, being sorry for being there. And so I got to a place in my life where I got tired of being sorry.

Karen: 31:07

You know, I got tired of gosh. I mean, I'm I'm here. You know, somebody wants me here. You know, that was kind of before I really encountered the Lord in a real way. And then, went to college and kind of did my wild stuff.

Karen: 31:27

So, my wild oats and barley and all grains. And so, in that space though, I started to get a voice and that's really what I've struggled with my whole life is having a voice and and I started to get a voice, but it wasn't terribly redeemed voice. It was an angry voice that said I'm tired of this. I became a feminist and all of that. Well, then I I moved into this place of being a newly married person right out of college, and I was, I became suicidal because I had no meaning.

Karen: 32:15

There was nothing for me to live for. Nothing. And that was that was not a new narrative for me. I went back and forth in in that, issue around suicide often. And so that's what brought me to this 12 step group that I told you about.

Karen: 32:36

And and so can you remind me what the question was again?

T.J.: 32:44

What what led into the calling into chaplaincy? Yes. Yes. And we and you said we needed to take a couple steps back.

Karen: 32:53

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Thank you. I I knew we were going somewhere.

Karen: 32:58

So, yeah, so this whole idea of having meaning, having purpose became very important to me, and it especially started to make more sense when I was a new Christian because I sensed that God had a purpose for me because I found out that he loved me. And that became sort of a rudder in my ship. This idea that we all have purpose in him and God has a plan and, God does not waste his time making people that he doesn't plan to have something great for. And, and it became a fire within me to help other people come to that place. And so when I got the call into ministry when I was 28, and I had 2 children at that time, I just had a baby, my son.

Karen: 34:01

And, that was that was really the driving force. How do I live my life according to God's purpose and plan for me? And then how do I help others by showing them Christ and by loving them where they are? Because I knew that because of God's love I had I knew I had a purpose because of that, and so I was like, This is what I need to do, And I really didn't set out to go into ministry until I got that. I mean, I volunteered a lot, you know, in church and things like that as much as I could as a stay at home mom.

Karen: 34:44

And then when that call came at a at a women's, retreat when my son was 4 months old and I was my daughter was 3. Then it was like, really? That's where he wants me to go with this. And I went home to my husband and he was supposed to talk me out of it because I heard God say, I want you to be a pastor. And, he was supposed to talk me out of it because he's the rational one.

Karen: 35:14

You know, he's a computer programmer. You know, he's that he's a very black and white thinker. And I said to him, I think God wants me to be a pastor. And he goes, Could be. And I said, well, that's ridiculous.

Karen: 35:27

You're supposed to talk me out of this. And he didn't. He didn't.

T.J.: 35:33

That's a relatively neutral response, initially, anyway.

Karen: 35:37

Yeah. But if you knew my husband, that's that's a stamp of approval.

T.J.: 35:44

Okay.

Karen: 35:45

Yeah. Usually, he'd, you know, he'd give me a look like you're crazy woman, you know, you know, and say something sarcastic and then we would move on and we wouldn't talk about it again. But he's like, Could be. Like, he probably thought of it already.

T.J.: 36:03

That was your first test of of this calling is, alright, you you you bring it home with you, you lay it on your husband, and did you get the response you really wanted at that time, looking back?

Karen: 36:24

I probably did get the response I wanted. Mhmm. But I was scared, You know?

T.J.: 36:31

Of what?

Karen: 36:32

I was scared. That sounded like a really big, big deal. And I was a woman. You know? And I, you know, had that moment where I'm like, Lord, you know, I'm a woman.

Karen: 36:46

Right? He's like, duck, Aaron. But I think that was that was the scary piece of it is like, what am I gonna have to go through? What, you know, what does that mean for my life with my children? Because I already had a plan of what I was gonna do.

Karen: 37:08

I was gonna work or I mean, I wasn't going to work until they all got in school. I was going to maybe go back to school or something and do cause I had a psychology degree at that point and you know, maybe I'll do get a master's or something. I but I just had this, you know, trajectory and that was not part of my plan. When is it, right?

T.J.: 37:31

Right. That's why I'm laughing so much is Yeah.

Karen: 37:38

So that's what led me into that, and then getting to chaplaincy was really, about how can I use the gifts that I have, and how can I get paid to use the gifts I have? I mean, that's part of it. It's like, you know, number 1, it's really hard as a woman to get a church. Doesn't matter what denomination you're in except you know? And and and I think the the denominations that I would be more resonant with, theologically speaking, I, I was not gonna probably be able to have a working wage to, or, you know, I just didn't look didn't look good for me.

Karen: 38:24

And so, but I have found that in chaplaincy, I can use my, 1 on 1 skills. And I love, again, like we were talking about the stories, getting to hear people's stories. You don't do that from a pulpit necessarily.

T.J.: 38:45

Yeah. You're moving from a monologue to a dialogue.

Karen: 38:49

Exactly. Exactly. And yet, I know I love to preach. I love to preach. So this current job that I'm in is sort of a beautiful mix of all those things.

Karen: 39:02

I do Sunday services, but then I also do 1 on 1 during the week, going in, it's at a senior living community, and, I get to be part of their lives, and that's pretty sweet.

T.J.: 39:18

Let's talk about that for a moment, dive a little deeper in terms of chaplaincy in senior living. What does that look like? What does that entail a little more deeply, a little more in detail? And, generally speaking, where is it located? Mhmm.

T.J.: 39:37

Because we hadn't talked about where you're living at. But, yeah, more so of a chaplaincy and what that looks like in terms of, day to day ministry?

Karen: 39:51

Sure. So I I work in 2 communities right now. We don't call them facilities. We call them communities. That's an old word.

Karen: 40:03

But I work, with the folks that I would say would be the most, affected by, the aging process by some folks have dementia. Some people have full blown Alzheimer's, that kind of thing. But I work in these communities, as just their chaplain and their friend. And so what that looks like is, becoming a part of their every day. So sometimes I'll go in and see people at breakfast and strike up a conversation.

Karen: 40:45

How's your day going so far? Can I get you some coffee? You know, and, and, try to reach them in there every day. You know, humdrum usual stuff you do every day and try to try to just connect with them. I think connection is really huge at with this age group.

Karen: 41:08

I'm not quite there yet, but it's, it won't be long. But I I think connection is huge, and especially folks that have come to live in these communities and they're beautiful communities of assisted living and, what we call health suites, which would be like long term nursing care, and some memory support, that kind of thing. And, so that's I try to become a part of their everyday lives. And then, you know, I work with the staff. I work with the other team members.

Karen: 41:45

We consider ourselves care team, a care team, and we, work together to try to meet the everyday life needs of these residents. I will have, referrals from other staff members that say, Hey, Karen, this person just learned that their daughter has cancer or something, you know, and can you go talk to her? She's really struggling. You know, there's a wide variety of issues that come up a lot of loss we experience. I mean, we as people just generally experience a lot of loss throughout life, but at this particular age group, there is a lot of loss much more than, you know, than than one would expect.

Karen: 42:37

But I mean, there's, you know, the loss of ability. There's the loss of mental faculties. There's the loss of friends. There's, you know, the loss of identity. The loss of freedom where they once could do everything for themselves and every day it seems like a little bit of that freedom goes away.

Karen: 43:03

And sometimes they feel like a loss of self and that, is one of the saddest pieces of it. And so I try to remind them that they are still who they are. That all those things that you did are still a part of your story. And I try to get them to tell me their stories because I want them to I want them to feel like they're still alive in that, you know, that their story matters. Their story is impressive.

Karen: 43:36

Their story means something. And so sometimes when they'll they'll ask me for prayer, I will pray. Thank you, God, for so and so for this person. Thank you for all that they have done to impact, so many people, the world. And maybe I'll mention those things, some of those things they've done, but I want them to understand that they are worthwhile and not lose that.

Karen: 44:08

Very much our our our whole staff is is, pointed in the direction of living life to the fullest, helping the residents to do that, not to prepare for death, but to live life as fully as they possibly can at this time, whatever that looks like for them.

T.J.: 44:32

I would think in terms of ministry, how what a rich opportunity to be a part of the community of faith every day to build those relationships. Mhmm. But then the flip side of that, Karen, could you respond on the temptations of being drawn to or drawn into, I guess it's both it's both and, spending time with your favorite people or maybe when you become the favorite person for the member of that community, How does that work? And how do you how do you do that dance?

Karen: 45:21

1 within yourself. Sort of balancing.

T.J.: 45:23

Yeah. 1 within yourself, but also, being around the same group of people on a daily basis, it allows that that intimacy to happen, and maybe even be expected because of your availability.

Karen: 45:43

Yeah. Well, you know, the interesting piece of that is it sounds a little bit strange, but sometimes it's helpful that some of our folks, their memory is not as good as it used to be because there isn't always that expectation that Karen will be there, you know, necessarily that Karen will be, you know, at my fingertips if I need her or wanna talk to her. There isn't that because I'm, you know, part of it is I'm a moving target. I am going all the time, and I'm not in the community, each community every day. So they kind of gotten used to that piece of it.

Karen: 46:33

The other so the other piece of that with the on the flip side with me and and my favorite people, I how I kind of handle that is I I kinda have my referrals where I really need to go or people that maybe I haven't seen in a little bit. And I try to make sure that I kind of pepper my day with all those people. And if I feel like I'm going into a difficult situation where I've had some very difficult situations where, you know, oh, Karen, go in there and talk to them about hospice. Uh-huh. Okay.

Karen: 47:13

I will purposefully go to someone to see someone that is very easy for me to talk to, that we have really good connection. Because what that does for me is it reminds me that I've got this. You know? That I'm okay. That I know how to do my job.

Karen: 47:38

And it just it just kind of reminds me, gives me a little more confidence, I guess is a better way of putting it, you know, I can go in and see this lady and she'll be like, oh, honey, you look so good. And she'll just build me up and she'll be like, oh, I just you're I just I'm so glad you're here and and all of that. And she rarely has like a lot of heavy needs or something, but she just likes, you know, to have a visit and encouragement and a prayer. And then I go on about my day and then then I go see somebody that's maybe a little tougher to talk to. And that's how I handle that.

T.J.: 48:16

How did you get to that place? Because that requires self awareness and recognition of our weaknesses, or at least those corners that need to be shored up. So how did you arrive to that place of of knowing what you need so that you can go and serve in attempt to meet the needs of others?

Karen: 48:44

I think part of it, I think is my chaplain training. A big piece of what we do in chaplain training and I had a residency at a hospital where I was there a year with the same group of people and we worked through stuff together. And, that was a very, again, healing, year for me because we talked about everything and we, you know, you you would encounter patients that she would go see and they would trip something in you and then you'd have to go talk it out and figure out, well, what is this about? Why did that upset me so much or whatever? What was triggered within me?

Karen: 49:29

And so I think that helped a lot in being able to go, well, this is kind of a tricky area for me, so I need to make sure I tread lightly here.

T.J.: 49:37

Yeah.

Karen: 49:40

And sometimes you can't anticipate how you're gonna kinda be triggered in in those situations. But I just know I'm supposed to be there. I know I'm supposed to be there and that helps me to go, okay, so Lord, how are you gonna figure this out? Right? Cause they're not every day.

Karen: 50:00

Do I walk away going, yeah, I did a great job. No. I could have done that better. Yeah. I could have done that better.

Karen: 50:10

Okay.

T.J.: 50:11

How long have you been to Chaplain?

Karen: 50:15

In total, if you kind of count the the time I've spent in the hospital, Gosh, I think it hasn't been that long. It's been, probably since 2019. So like 3 years. Yeah.

T.J.: 50:33

Yeah. And that was your calling to be ordained in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Karen, share with me the part of your journey where you found Cumberland Presbyterians? Or, I don't know the story, did Cumberland Presbyterians find you?

Karen: 51:01

Well, maybe we were both lost. I don't know. I, let's see. I'm just trying to find them. Okay.

Karen: 51:13

Yeah. So I was looking for a Celtic congregation because I felt led to exploring more of that sort of spirituality. And so and this was might have been 2016, 2015, 2016, something like that. And I had been studying that for probably 8 years or something prior to that. And I found one in Denver, which was a Cumberland Presbyterian Church which was you know Rick and Jean Hess's, leadership there and, got to know them and really felt like this is like my home.

Karen: 51:53

You know, this is, I just, yeah. Something says, the Lord says I gotta stay right here. You know. And I was thinking about I was, you know, and I did my first unit of, CPE, which is clinical pastoral education for those people who don't know what that is. And I was doing that first unit, and I really felt like I needed to find a mentor as a pastor because that was still in me, you know, that I needed to be ordained because the Lord told me to be a pastor.

Karen: 52:24

And I really felt like I wasn't gonna be able to be taken seriously if I wasn't ordained. Oh, well,

T.J.: 52:31

let me interrupt you. So you were you're in the middle of your education and doing your CPE to work Yeah. In the

Karen: 52:38

first unit.

T.J.: 52:39

To work in in a clinical environment, perhaps, but faith based as well? See, I'm I'm stretching here. So you Yeah. Told me where where I'm in because

Karen: 52:53

So as chaplains, you are, if you want to be a board certified chaplain, you need to have an endorsement from a denomination and an MDiv or some sort of equivalent of that. And it's good to have it's good to have, like, your, to be to be ordained as well. And I really felt like ordination was the direction I wanted to go as a chaplain so that I had the door open for if say the Lord said, I'm I'm done with you being a chaplain now. I want you to find a job in a church. So I wanted that flexibility as well.

T.J.: 53:38

Okay. So you entered the CPE without ordination recognized by any church or denomination.

Karen: 53:50

Right. Right.

T.J.: 53:51

Interesting. Okay. Alright. I'll quit in

Karen: 53:53

a minute. That's very often the case for for people. Not everybody, comes in with it with already having had their ordination and that kind of thing. But, so I was just looking for a female actually to be a mentor for me. And I felt like, gosh, I found this Celtic church, and I found Jean Hess.

Karen: 54:18

And, and then I was just like, okay. I'm just I gotta figure out where can I be ordained? You know what denomination is okay with ordaining women, You know? And, you know, Jean helped me tease that out a little bit. You know, we talked it over, and it felt like a good spot, Cumberland did for me.

Karen: 54:46

I looked into some other denominations, and part of part of it was that these other denominations that I was looking at wanted me to go to their seminary or, you know, do, I don't know, do cartwheels and jump through hoops and all these different things. And I was like, okay, I'm in Denver. I got my education at Denver Seminary. I still have one kid to raise. I'm not moving to Chicago to go to school or to wherever to to do any more seminary.

Karen: 55:20

I've gotten most of my seminary done at that point. And so, it just felt like a good space for me. I had, ideologically, I felt like Cumberland was, was, in keeping with, you know, where I was, you know, theologically. Let's pause.

T.J.: 55:42

Let's pause here. Let's pause here. Beyond the practical of not having to relocate, what what was it about, or what is it about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church that resonates with you and resonated with you in your search?

Karen: 56:01

I think the first thing that caught my attention is their lack of pretension.

T.J.: 56:09

Alright. Go on.

Karen: 56:12

Yeah. So it was kind of like they were just, you know, I as I was considering candidacy and getting to know people a little bit in in the presbytery, it was like, these are just a bunch of people that love Jesus and love each other. I was like, if you guys are for real, I want some of that. I want to be a part of that. You know, and they just and and I liked the small denomination in the sense that, because I'm kind of a chaplain at heart, that's sort of more intimate space is beautiful.

Karen: 56:56

And I loved, you know, when I was getting into the history and all of that, I was like, this is really cool. I mean, yeah, there's some there's some not so great things about our history. Everybody has them. Right? Mhmm.

Karen: 57:08

But, you know, they started ordaining women in 18/99, which seemed really progressive to me. They, you know, they had some they were founded on these this idea of I they just wanted to follow where God was leading. What an idea. What a concept. Very simply, don't have to go through a lot of theology or doctrine.

Karen: 57:38

You just gotta follow God where he's leading. And when he is leading, you gotta ignore other people that are saying, no, this isn't God. If you aren't if you know God is leading, you just gotta follow. And that was impressive to me, You know? And I think also probably the biggest thing is the example of Jean and Rick Hess in their commitment to to the Lord, but also their commitment to, serving under Cumberland Presbyterian, whatever you call it.

Karen: 58:28

Denomination. Denomination or, I mean, I I guess I get was thinking, okay, I won't go there. But anyway, it just felt like I was was home. And, yeah. And I and yeah, and I'm, the thing is, is that I don't need a lot of fanfare in what I'm doing to know that I'm doing the right thing.

Karen: 59:00

Does that make sense?

T.J.: 59:01

Mhmm. I

Karen: 59:02

don't need a lot of oh, you know, a lot of fireworks to go off. As a matter of fact, let's have less because our God speaks to us in the still small voice.

T.J.: 59:17

Okay. That leads me to my next question. Where do you see god, God's presence? And where do you hear God speaking today?

Karen: 59:33

Today.

T.J.: 59:37

And we're towards the end of the day, so you've had many waking hours.

Karen: 59:43

So are you saying today in a more, like, esoteric kind of way, or is it today today at, you know, whatever time of day it is today?

T.J.: 59:52

Presently.

Karen: 59:53

Presently.

T.J.: 59:54

Yeah.

Karen: 59:55

You know, I think God is working through my weaknesses oftentimes.

T.J.: 01:00:01

Mhmm.

Karen: 01:00:03

He's working through my insecurities. He's saying, Karen, you're all right. You don't have to feel the way you feel. You don't have to doubt. Doubt that you're okay.

Karen: 01:00:27

I just love you right where you are. And and as I live out who I am, I hear or I feel the Lord in that. It's kind of like you feel the sunshine of his smile on you. And you know you're okay. Somehow you're okay.

Karen: 01:00:59

And, and you can get up tomorrow and be okay. Maybe a little more okay because you're growing. And, Yeah, I think that is where I see him and I see him also in the beautiful people around me. My residents, the residents, the beautiful staff members that I work with, my kids, which I don't get to see very often, but when I talk to them, it's this beautiful connection, with eternal pieces. You know?

Karen: 01:01:43

Eternal, beings.

T.J.: 01:01:48

Karen, if you ran into a young person that reminded you of yourself a few years ago who was carrying the weight and the burden on the shoulders of what were the words that you used? Sort of, something wrong with me and sense of unworthiness, sense of brokenness. What would you tell them about God, about the Christian faith? What message would you have for them, for that person?

Karen: 01:02:27

Who?

T.J.: 01:02:29

What did you need to hear this is another way to ask the same question. What did you need to hear at that point of your life?

Karen: 01:02:42

I think the first thing I would say and or do would be to tell them they're okay. And I would hug them And I would tell them that they are loved by God in this moment. And nothing separates you from his love. Nothing. And God does not love you more because you are more of what the world says you should be or whatever messages you got along the way.

Karen: 01:03:33

He just loves you because you are. Because you're there and He's, you're His creation. And He died for you.

T.J.: 01:03:47

You know the world would be a different place if we spend more time hugging one another. You know, you said something else that I really thought of before. There's being okay and then there's being okay. You know, my, young daughter falls, scrapes her knee, kind of looks to see if, is this where I need to act upset or not? And I'll say, oh okay, you'll be okay.

T.J.: 01:04:22

You'll be okay. You know, there's no blood spurting or anything.

Karen: 01:04:26

Right.

T.J.: 01:04:26

But then there are other times when we can say those exact same words and they have an entirely deeper meaning. Karen, you're going to be okay. It's a different level, you know. There really is. Mhmm.

T.J.: 01:04:43

I'll have to ponder that more.

Karen: 01:04:45

Yeah.

T.J.: 01:04:47

Being okay and passing out more hugs.

Karen: 01:04:52

Yeah. Yeah. I think that being okay, that deeper peace is about being acceptable. And not just acceptable, like, on a very basic way or just barely acceptable, but completely and wholly acceptable right there without having to do anything. And I think if we could believe that the core of our being the core of our being, I think we we can make such a difference in the world and we oh, gosh, we'd be so much happier.

T.J.: 01:05:45

Mhmm.

Karen: 01:05:48

Because we get out of the way. We get out of the way of what God is doing and we go get in his flow. And, gosh, that's a whole lot of freedom. It is. I think

T.J.: 01:06:08

I think that we we approach it differently. It's almost an individual. Some may jump head first into the the god flow. Mhmm. And then there are others who are gonna need to slowly, methodically, wade into that flow.

T.J.: 01:06:34

And it may take years Yes. Before there's that trustworthiness. Mhmm. And those are very different paces.

Karen: 01:06:49

And God is so patient with us in those journeys, isn't he?

T.J.: 01:06:56

Yeah. You know? I'm laughing because I'm not.

Karen: 01:07:01

Yeah. Oh, no. No. No. No.

Karen: 01:07:04

You know, I mean, there's some days I'm like, how long have you been at this Karen? How long? You know? And the Lord's like, I got no problem. I got nothing but time.

T.J.: 01:07:20

Well, we started our conversation about books. How about we end our conversation on books?

Karen: 01:07:29

Okay.

T.J.: 01:07:30

What is your favorite book?

Karen: 01:07:35

I'm just running through the list, and, I'd have to say probably my favorite book. I think this is this is one and it's it's one of many. Let's put it that way, but

T.J.: 01:07:59

Of course.

Karen: 01:08:00

It's called The Chosen, and it is, I don't know if you've ever read it before. It's by a Jewish writer, Chaim Potok, And he, it's about this story about these 2, adolescents boys who meet on a baseball field. And this is like, after just after World War 2 in New York City. So it's maybe 1949 or 1950, something like that. And these boys come from 2 different walks of life.

Karen: 01:08:40

They're both Jewish, but one comes from a Hasidic family and the other comes from a much more reformed background in in Jewish speak. And so they meet and they form this friendship. And the beauty of the book, I think, is there's just they're very different people and they're raised very differently. And one father passes on his wisdom to his son by talking to him all the time and conversating and and and working through things and and just mulling things out and very, very academic, but also very intimate in in their relationship together, just the way that they relate to each other, and they they talk about what's going on in the world, which was quite, you know, it's quite volatile at that point, especially for Jews. And and they just do this whole dance around what's going on in the world and they just and they're very intimate.

Karen: 01:09:50

The other side of it, that his friend who comes from the Hasidic tradition, his father doesn't ever talk to him, never talks to him except to talk about Talmud. And so that's the only time. And he feels that he is doing what he's supposed to do as a father by never talking to his son and it's just an interesting discussion on relationships and how they they look, how fathers and sons relate to each other and the effect that it has on, the the next generation. These these young men who are gonna graduate from high school and go to college. And it's just I don't know.

Karen: 01:10:38

There's something so it's it's like a warm blanket kind of story.

T.J.: 01:10:45

How far into the life of these two characters does this story go in terms of age?

Karen: 01:10:55

They, I believe they get into college, probably a couple of years into college. And one goes to like Columbia and studies psychology when his father, the Hasidic young young man goes and studies psychology when his father wanted him to study Talmud and become a rabbi and so he goes against everything his father wanted him to do And his father is not very happy and not really talking to him. On the other side of it, so is this his other friend who was you know part of that very relational kind of thing with his dad, he kind of does some he's a mathematician or something, and he's gonna go a different direction, but his father is like, that's just fine. You know, it's not what I was thinking you'd do, but that's okay. And then he ends up becoming a rabbi in the end, which is sort of interesting because that was that's sort of not what his father wanted because his father was an academic.

Karen: 01:11:58

He was a a college professor or something.

T.J.: 01:12:01

Fascinating.

Karen: 01:12:03

Yeah. So it's just it's just interesting, but but just the relationships, you know? I like stories about relationships.

T.J.: 01:12:12

Yeah. How complex they are, unpredictable and yet rewarding.

Karen: 01:12:17

Mhmm. Yeah.

T.J.: 01:12:20

Karen, thank you for giving me this much of your time and sharing of yourself and weaving wonderful stories together and opening up your life enough to share the life of a chaplain, the life of a woman in ministry, and the life of a mother, and then life of being a disciple. Thank you so much, Karen.

Karen: 01:12:49

You're welcome. Thanks for having me, TJ. Appreciate it.

T.J.: 01:12:54

Thank you for listening to The Cumberland Road. Please follow, subscribe, like this podcast on Apple, Spotify, Google, your favorite podcasting site. Close with a quote from author Harold Kushner, the author of When Bad Things Happen to Good People. Caring about others, running the risk of feeling, and leaving an impact on people brings happiness.