Kevin Brantley - Youth Camping Ministry, Grace, & Bringing People In
You're listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. It's been a few weeks since a new episode of Cumberland Road has been available. Thanks for your patience as I balance my profession and family and, well, just life. Today's guest is reverend Kevin Brantley. He is the minister at the Sacramento Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Kentucky, and he is the stated clerk of Cumberland Presbyterian. In our faith conversation, we talk about Kevin's years of growing up in the church and his career path as a young adult that eventually led into ministry. In this conversation, we spent some time on the importance of youth ministry and being intentional in bringing people in to the community of faith. And we do that, he says, with grace. My friends, enjoy this conversation with Reverend Kevin Brantley.
T. J.:Kevin, we first met as students at Bethel College, now called Bethel University, and you were on your way out as I was just beginning.
T. J.:So what brought you to Bethel?
Kevin:Well, actually, you know, I started out at the University of Oklahoma. I wasn't sure where I wanted to go to college. In the end, where I wanted to go, my dad said we couldn't afford, which was Texas Christian University in Fort Worth. And so my best friend and I decided we'd go to the University of Oklahoma, always big football fans, all that. So we went there.
Kevin:We roomed together. But something about wandering around 25,000 students, and I knew, like, 50 of them. Mhmm. And that was only because 25 of them had gone to high school with me. Mhmm.
Kevin:The other 25 were in my dorm room or my dorm. And so it was just one of those days, I prayed to God, you know, I said, you know, God, what am I doing here? I don't wanna be here. And he, you know, I can remember him saying go to Bethel. And being from Oklahoma, really, I didn't know anything about Bethel.
Kevin:I didn't even know Bethel existed until my senior year in high school. For some reason, I just never heard it mentioned. You know, church camp, it was never mentioned until the church camp, you know, right before senior year, I knew somebody said they were going there. Mhmm. I I assumed it might be a college in Texas.
Kevin:I didn't really know. I don't know where it was. So, you know, God called me to go to Bethel. So the first day I ever saw Bethel was the day my parents dropped me off there.
T. J.:Oh, wow. So you applied and was accepted, but you never took a tour of the school before becoming a student.
Kevin:No. I I went to the University of Oklahoma library, found a book on colleges that listed a phone number. The book may have been fairly old because it said Bethel still was on quarters. Well, Bethel wasn't on quarters, but that's how old the book was. So I got it.
Kevin:I called up there, said I need the admissions office, and I told him who I was. I said, I'll be there in the spring. I need you to send me whatever I need to fill out. Mhmm. And so I actually showed up, like, a week early.
Kevin:Somewhere somewhere the lines got crossed, and when I showed up, only the basketball players were there. Oh, wow. But they let me into my room anyway. So I was there, like, January 4th or something, and classes didn't start till, like, 10th or 11th.
T. J.:Oh, wow. Well, so what was your career path? What were you thinking as a 2nd semester, 1st semester Bethel student?
Kevin:Well, I was gonna go into accounting. I was always good at accounting and my dad is and was an accountant. And so numbers seem to work for me, so that's what my goal was, was to be an accountant. About halfway through, I switched to teaching. So I was gonna be a math and accounting teacher.
Kevin:And I took they, at that time, had a Christian ed minor. And so I picked up the Christian ed minor till they dropped it and took a few classes on it because you all thought, well, I may wanna be a volunteer youth director when I go back home. Mhmm. So that was really what I was looking at when I was at Bethel originally and till the call came in my life right before my senior year.
T. J.:Alright. So the calling to be an ordained minister, that never hit your horizon until early adulthood.
Kevin:It didn't hit my horizon until the summer between my junior and senior. Now other people apparently saw it. I can always remember doctor Mitzi Minor. I was in a class, and there were, like, 8 of us. And she I think it was the Synoptic Gospels.
Kevin:And she said, now all of you are going to be ministers one day, and I said, woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah.
Kevin:Woah. I'm gonna be a teacher. I'm I may volunteer as a youth director, you know, for my local church, but I'm not called into the ministry. And she said, Kevin, you're called. You just don't know it yet.
Kevin:Mhmm. And I remember telling her, well, if I ever get called, you'll be the first person I tell. And so, actually, after I received the call, when I came back from Oklahoma back to Bethel for my senior year, I actually stopped at the seminary because she'd moved from the college to the seminary that summer. And when I walked in the door, she saw me and just burst out laughing. And she said, I knew it.
Kevin:I told you. And so she still tells me that story to this day. She reminds me of when I see her, she goes, I told you. I said, I know, doctor Minor. You told me before anybody else.
T. J.:Ain't it funny that people can see things in us and the potential in us before we even recognize them? It's quite a gift.
Kevin:Mhmm. And, you know, when I announced that I had been called into the ministry, nobody seemed shot. You know, some people, you're like, wow. Them? But, you know, it just seemed like, yeah.
Kevin:We knew Kevin. Dude, we just we're waiting to see if you ever figured it out. So
T. J.:Yeah. It's kinda like, I don't know, having a leaf stuck in your hair or, I don't know, the shoes on your feet don't match.
Kevin:Mhmm.
T. J.:Everybody sees it but you. And I don't know. Sometimes, you just gotta let the other person know. They gotta figure it out themselves that, yeah, a leaf got stuck in their hair or their shoes or their socks don't match. Except it's less embarrassing, of course.
Kevin:Oh, yes.
T. J.:Maybe it's a maybe it's a place of arrival instead of like, a mistake. But that may be a good sign of, good solid friends instead of telling you what to do, giving you the space to discover it, on your own.
Kevin:Well, I also think, you know, if I wasn't called into the ministry, it probably would be something I would struggle with. You know, I can't imagine trying to do ministry, not being called by God. So, yeah, it's it was something and I think God I always say God slowly moved me there. If he'd called me when I was at the University of Oklahoma, I would never have answered. But, you know, he had to get me from the University of Oklahoma to Bethel.
Kevin:And then at Bethel, being surrounded by people who wanted to go into ministry, saying, hey. You know, I I enjoyed my youth leaders as a kid. I'd like to do that. And then he slowly moved me to where I ended up working at a campfire boys and girls camp one summer and realized I enjoy being around kids. I love kids.
Kevin:Kids love me. My wife says this because I'm one of them, but and then actually, from there, they actually wanted me to be a counselor the next year. People find this hard to believe, my actual title at that boys and girls camp was horse wrangler.
T. J.:Okay.
Kevin:You know, I took care of the horses. I fed them, I saddled them, I cleaned them, so that was my title. But, they told me the next year I had to be a counselor, and so I actually got lifeguard training. Because if you're a counselor, you had to have lifeguard training because the counselors also worked a swimming pool. Mhmm.
Kevin:And then I actually never went back to that camp as a lifeguard or a counselor because I think it was, dean Dreher, the dean at Bethel College at the time, came to me and said the children's home in Denton, Texas is looking for a lifeguard this summer. I know you're in lifeguard training class. Would you go to the children's home and be their lifeguard this summer? I said, absolutely. And then it was in Denton, Texas that God called me.
Kevin:So so it's just a slow progression to get me to the right place that I could be in my mind. So
T. J.:So, Kevin, the horse wrangler, lifeguard, accountant, and teacher, administer.
Kevin:Administer.
T. J.:Yeah. And camp counselor. I don't know if I included that in there. So what happened in Denton, Texas? What opened your eyes to a calling into ministry?
Kevin:Well, I think still there, you know, I still plan on being a teacher, still doing math and accounting. And, like I said, I just enjoy being around kids. I love hanging out with them, but, really, it was actually a physical thing that happened to me. At the time, reverend John Lindsay was the pastor at Denton, And the children's home, we always loaded up every Sunday morning, took the kids to church. Mhmm.
Kevin:And we sat in the back, and so I'm sitting in the pews with these kids and brother John Lindsay reads the scripture, and he starts off the sermon, do not be afraid. And at that time, god actually slapped me because my head actually turned. It got whipped so hard. And I I thought maybe it was just something in my head that had happened. But one of the cottage parents at that time, of course, they had kids on campus and cottages.
Kevin:One of the cottage parents came up to me after the service and said, which kid hit you? Because they saw my head snap. They and it looked like, you know, a kid had slapped me, and I said my head turned the opposite direction. There was no kid on that side of me. You know?
Kevin:And I knew what do not be afraid meant. You know, being the shy, kind of introverted kid, for the most part. Some people say I, you know, I don't ever talk. Some people say I don't ever shut up. So, you know, one one girl I dated, she said, Kevin, you never talked when I first met you, but you never shut up now.
Kevin:So, so I knew do not be afraid. I knew automatically it meant that I was being called into the ministry. And it was probably at that time, I guess, I became more relaxed. You know? Accounting, I'd I'd loved, but something about it, I didn't wanna do.
Kevin:The math teacher, accounting teacher, I began, you know, like, I don't know if this is really what I want to do. This is more of what my dad and I discussed and where I he thought my range of skills would be good, and I agreed. But I wasn't sure if this is what I wanted to do. But even though I was afraid of standing in front of people and talking, I knew that's what I was supposed to do. And so I immediately, you know, eventually went back, had my session approved me, met for presbytery eventually, and went back to Bethel and said, how do I get out of here the fastest?
T. J.:Yeah. I was gonna ask you. So that changes or did it change your trajectory as a student working towards graduation? Because at that point, you're in your last year.
Kevin:Well, actually, at that time, I was gonna go 2 more years because I'd started switching to teaching. You have to know you're gonna be a teacher when you start college because of the course load.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Kevin:Because you end up having to take 36 hours of whatever your subject is, plus another 30 some odd hours of teaching, so you're almost doing 2 degrees. And so I remember going to, miss Martin, who was the Bethel College registrar, and I said, how do I get out of here the fastest? What gets me out of here in 1 year? And she said, well, you've been doing math, and you've done accounting. And we have a math major with a business emphasis.
Kevin:She said the only problem is you lack 38 hours. I've been I've done 36 a year. I did 18 every semester. I had to go to Dean Dreher every semester, and he had to sign off on 18. You could take 17 without the dean's signature, but for 18, you had to have him sign off on it.
Kevin:And he knew me well enough, he'd just go, Kevin, give me the paper. And so I walked in his office, and he said, Kevin, you know, 18? I said, no, sir. I'm doing 20 this semester. The fall semester, I did 20 hours.
Kevin:And he said, Kevin, I can't allow you to do that. That's just too much. And I said, Dean, it's the same number of classes I've taken every semester. It's still just 6 classes. He said, hand me the paper.
Kevin:So he signed off on it. So I did 20 hours the fall semester, and I did 18 hours in the spring and got out of there with the 38 hours. So it really in terms of class load, it didn't change anything other than I switched from the education back to the accounting part.
T. J.:Kevin, what was the rush to get done and get out of Bethel as quickly as possible?
Kevin:Well, I I knew what God was now calling me to do. There was there was no reason to stick around. Some people love college. I loved college. I became a different person at college.
Kevin:My grandma said I blossomed during college. I came out of my shell. But I knew it's what I was called to do. I knew it's what I was supposed to do, so it was just instead of running from it, I was running to it. It was what God want me to, and I I knew I was gonna have another 3, 4 years in seminary, so why stick around college any longer?
Kevin:Let's get on to the other work. But when you know what God is calling you to do, you just simply are ready to go do it. And so I was ready to go to it.
T. J.:In those moments, what were you visioning ministry to look like? Was it youth ministry? Was it serving a local church? Was it chaplaincy? What did that look like in those early days?
Kevin:Well, I think the hope was always that I would be one of those youth ministers from age 25 to age 65. But I knew those those jobs were few and far between, so so I knew more than likely at some point it was going to be the pastorate. And I ended up going to Lawrenceburg, Tennessee to work as a director of children and youth part of the time I was in seminary. And I like that. I enjoyed that.
Kevin:But, like I said, I didn't see the number of jobs out there within that, and reverend Melvin Orr kinda taught me the day to day ministry stuff. And even though it scared me to death, I knew it was what God wanted me to do, and so I always knew pastoring was what I could work with the children and youth as I pastored.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Kevin:And a lot of the churches that I've been in, we haven't had a full time youth director. We haven't even had a part time. So sometimes it's been, you know, Sunday more I've had churches where Sunday morning, I've taught Sunday school, then I've preached, and then I've come back at 5 o'clock in the evening, done youth, and then had, you know, bible study at 6 o'clock that night, then had a session meeting after that. Oh, man. I was just one of those I have everything.
T. J.:So Man, I'd hate to follow you after you served in the pastorate. The expectations were ramped up so high that there's various roles that after you did that, they would expect every minister to be able to wear that many hats and and they can't.
Kevin:I know one lady told me when I left my last church, she said, I don't think we realized how much you really did until you left and there was nobody there doing it. Mhmm. So I guess that's a compliment.
T. J.:Yes. Again, except for those who had to follow behind you.
Kevin:Maybe that's why there was a period of time in between us.
T. J.:Kevin, you made a profession of faith around 10 years old. Share about that experience. Share about that time in your life.
Kevin:Well, for the most part, it always just was there. You know? But I think back then, I just was a troublemaking kid. My mom would always tell me that I just simply drove her up the wall.
T. J.:In what way?
Kevin:I was just, you know, the kid that nobody wants to have, that was me. You know, at church, I was my friend, John and I, we would crawl under the pews in the middle of the service because we were racing to see who could get to the front and back. You know, I was that kid that when we got to their Sunday school class, everybody retired. So, you know, it was just this, I was wild, I was crazy, and something about, you know, one of the ladies that was at our home my home church in Ada, Oklahoma, at the latter Cumberland Presbyterian Church then, now it's the Covenant Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Miss June Lawson took over our Sunday school class after nobody would teach it.
Kevin:And I remember she said, if you'll behave for 10 straight weeks, I'll buy you a Hot Wheel. That was a big motivator for me. Back then, you know, you just didn't get one at the Dollar General every time you went. And some reason that just calm me down and her showing me that love, I realized, you know, I wanna be more like her. I wanna be more like, you know, the adults around me, and so I became better behaved for the most part.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Kevin:But I realized that that's not what God wanted me to do, to be that rambunctious kid. He simply wanted me to take that energy and channel it into something different and, you know, behave. And, actually, I remember the Sunday I was going to join, I was sitting next to my dad, and we were singing the final hymn, and I started to move I I shut my hymn book, and I started to move. And my dad grabbed my shoulder, and he said, what are you doing? And I said, you know, I I believe in Jesus as my lord and savior, and it's time for me to join the church.
Kevin:And he said, you can't, which, you know, when is your father ever gonna tell you you can't join the church? Because your mother's home sick, remember? And she's not here. You can't join the church. Mhmm.
Kevin:So I didn't actually I went forward, told him, and, you know, the preacher buddy reverend Buddy Baltimore, he announced Kevin's going to join the church, but it's going to be, hopefully, tonight because his mom, Susan's at home sick. Hopefully, she'll make it tonight, and we'll have him join tonight. And, actually, one of the strange things of life you know, Walt Disney always says it's a small world. You know? You get that song stuck in your head, and there's little things in life that remind us that it really is a small world.
Kevin:At the church I serve at now in Sacramento, Kentucky, there was a gentleman who had gone out to Oklahoma to Norman, Oklahoma for banking school. And reverend John Loveless from Ada Oklahoma had been the pastor at Sacramento before, and so he went down to Ada on Sunday. It happened to be that Sunday that I went forward because he told me he said, I've been to your home church. And when I was there, there was this 9, 10 year old boy who went forward to join the church, but he couldn't join because his mother was sick. And I said, Kenny, that was me.
Kevin:So, you know, it's it's just it's interesting. He can tell my story almost as much as I can because he remembers being there that day. The only time he ever was at that church. Mhmm. So as Walt Disney says, it really is a small world.
T. J.:It is. It is. You've mentioned some people in your life that has encouraged you along the way. Kevin, what are who are some other people that, have impacted your journey of faith?
Kevin:Well, I would say the main people of course, my grandparents had a big influence on me. My grandfather was somebody I would follow anywhere he would go. When I was in kindergarten, kindergarten was only a half a day. My grandmother, about every other day, would pick me up, take me out to the farm, and I would ride for 5 hours on a tractor with my grandfather just to be with him. And he was a song leader at church.
Kevin:He was a Gideon, and so I was always interested, you know, that I guess that's where my love of singing comes. I'm horrible at it, but I love to sing. You know, I'm one of those make a joyful noise people.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Kevin:So they both were an influence on me. My grandmother, she was a charter member of the latter church when she was, I guess, 7, somewhere in that age when I chartered the church, and she was always faithfully there. And she was kind of sometimes a chimney cricket to me. She'd be like, Kevin, you know, that's not who you are. Yes, grandmother.
Kevin:Anytime I would go someplace, she would say, Kevin, remember you're a Brantley. I'd say, yes, grandma. I'll be on my best behavior. And then my dad, he's always been in ministry, in, my faith, in everything. He's kind of been a sounding board for me.
Kevin:Like I said, when I was in college and wanted to give up being an accountant, you know, he literally sat down. He said, well, let's write down your pros. Let's write down your cons. You know, what are you good at? What are you not good at?
Kevin:And then we came up with a list of things. And he gave me you know, probably when I was in 3rd grade, he gave me the good news bible that he read out of a lot. He had several other versions, but he gave me that one so that I could continue reading the word at home. And then after I joined the church, he gave me it was before the 1984 confession, so I was the older one, a little blue confession of faith. He gave that to me so I could study, and we talk about, you know, the things within it.
Kevin:So he's always been there for that. Some of the people within my home church, like Joe and Naomi Lovelace, Chacey Shortes, and then there was another gentleman who was at another church named BR Spencer. They were probably grandparents But I went to church camp, and their love and enthusiasm at church camp is probably while I still do church camp. They probably did it another 20 years after I graduated. I mean, they were in their eighties, still going to church camp, still acting as goofy as they could be, and kids just absolutely loved it.
Kevin:And so they've always kind of been they made camp fun for me. And so when I'm at church camp, I wanna make sure kids are having fun. Mhmm. And then, of course, like I said earlier, reverend Melvin Orr, probably that teaching me the day to day ministry. He would take me on church visits.
Kevin:He would take me to funerals, you know, kinda he would tell me his preparation. He would make sure that I understood ministry is about more than just Sunday morning being in the pulpit, That there, you know and he would help me through it. He gave me a little, a book that followed the lectionary, and each Monday, we would sit down and we would discuss the lectionary readings. And so that's where I first you know, even though I wasn't preaching every week, I was studying the lectionary every week for 2 years until, you know, I finally moved on to my first church. So
T. J.:Kevin, you and I have been fortunate to have people in our lives growing up and even into adulthood who've been great models and examples of the Christian faith. As a minister, as a Christian, just as a human being, what advice do you have for those who may not have had, great people in their lives that they've encountered to model the faith? And then there's a 2 part question. And for those of us who are followers of Christ, how do we make those connections? How do we intentionally develop those relationships so that we can have an impact on lives like the folks that you've mentioned?
Kevin:Well, I think as Christians, we've got to make sure we seek out those, I guess, that seemed to be standing back. You know, I was lucky in my life that I had people who basically dragged me into things. I mean, like I said, I'm the shy introverted guy. When I'd go to church camp as a kid, I'd stand back from every group. And they would I I had a friend who would literally drag me into the group.
Kevin:He said, come on, Kevin. You're a part of this group. And it took me a long time to ever feel comfortable in the group. I did that at Bethel. You know, I got to Bethel, and there'd be 7 people in the cafeteria for breakfast, and I'd go sit by myself.
Kevin:And people would get up and say, Kevin, what are you doing? Get over here. And so, you know, we've got to be intentional about bringing people into the group. Mhmm. You know, far too often, we well, you know, they'll join the group when they want.
Kevin:Well, bring them in. You know, help them, you know, especially kids. Kids tend to be stand back. You know, I can remember at church camp. I guess it was my last year as a camper, and I was bound and determined that no kid would be like I usually had felt.
Kevin:I was going to be the one dragging kids into the conversation. I was the one dragging them. Be like, come on. You you be a part of my team. You be here with my group.
Kevin:And so, you know, we've got to be intentional about bringing people in. It's not enough. You know, sometimes I think we look at people, and, well, when they're comfortable, they'll come to us. And one of the things I do on our Wednesday night program, sometimes we have kids who are there for the 1st or second time. They don't know where to sit.
Kevin:Maybe they don't have friends, and they'll be sitting at a table by themselves, and I'm always the last one to go through the lot. Mainly because I eat too much food, but I'm the last one to go through the lot. And so I'm looking around going, who's sitting by themselves? Who you know, or maybe where there's 1 or 2 kids by themselves, and that's the table I go find. And I try to do that at church at potluck.
Kevin:Who are the people sitting by themselves who need somebody sitting with them? So, obviously, I can't do that in worship time. I can't say, well, who's sitting by themselves, and I can't go sit with them, but, you know, we have to be intentional about bringing people into the group. You know, we don't want people to think that church is a click group, that it's only for the insiders, you know. If we want people to join, if we want people if we want the church to grow, we have to be intentional about not only bringing them in, but allowing them into the group with us.
T. J.:Mhmm. Alright. To play the devil's advocate for a moment, what if I am not hardwired in that way? Because what you're describing is is I have to kind of place my myself in the shoes of another person to maybe gather kind of an how do you approach what do you use for an icebreaker to begin to include that youth, that child, that adult to the in group?
Kevin:Children, I guess, it's easier because you can always ask them about school. You know, what grade are you in? What, you know, what's your favorite subject? You know, with adults, what I try to do is I try to find somewhere where we have a commonality. Mhmm.
Kevin:Or somewhere where we can have just it doesn't have to be a church conversation. As a matter of fact, I usually try to steer away from having a church conversation with them, you know, especially if they come with kids, you know, talk about their kids. You know, every parent, their kids are important to them. So, you know, let's talk about the kids. Let's talk about, you know, and then try to find ways in which I can help out with them.
Kevin:You know? Let's you know, we don't have to have that come to Jesus moment, that first Sunday they're there. Let's let's be a part of their lives. Let's find out where we can help, and, you know, let's start that conversation there. Some people are very turned off by that sometimes.
Kevin:You know, they come in we've had people come in our church, say, well, we're just here for the worship. You know, they don't wanna get involved. They don't wanna have that conversation. So, you know, we may back off a little. We have some that, you know, they say, we're so glad that you wrapped your arms around us and welcomed us from the moment we walked in here, and it wasn't about where our faith was at the moment.
Kevin:It was just simply about loving on us while we are here, and we don't know what we'd do without this place.
T. J.:I think people have an innate sense of genuine inquiry into their lives. You know, we I think we have this ability to sense if if you are genuine in in getting to know who I am and and what I'm about and where I've been and where I'm going. And I think people have to keep that in mind that if you're asking with an end game or an end idea in mind, we have a way of kind of sensing that. So you're not really being honest, that you want me to, I don't know, come to your church potluck or, become a church member or volunteer for a Sunday school teacher or make some sort of commitment that I may not fully understand or certainly not be ready for. I think if we are curious individuals, genuinely curious and are seeking, many people welcome that.
T. J.:You know, Many people are open when you have an interest into their lives.
Kevin:Yes. Especially when you have, like I said, an interest within their kids' lives. And one thing I didn't know this, but my wife and I, we were just kinda talking last night about the various things that might go happen. She said, Kevin, the one thing somebody told me is brother Kevin is the same everywhere you see him. He's the same person at church that he is at the grocery store, that he is at the ball game, that he is anywhere.
Kevin:You know, he's just that of course, I say it maybe kind of little silly ish, but, you know, but I really want to get to know people, and I really wanna get to know kids. As my wife says, maybe it's because I'm one of them. You know, kids don't know that I'm an adult the way I behave with them. So, you know, I like to have a good time with them. I like to have fun with them.
T. J.:Mhmm. Well, and that can make you more approachable, you know, when you're at the level of the mindset and the sensibilities of a teenager, preteen, or just a youth, it makes it a little bit easier even if they view you as being silly. You were telling me that you have, spent or you attended your 50th church camp this year in 2023, as both a youth and also as a counselor. Let's talk for a few minutes about church camp and how COVID 19 has affected, camp attendance and what you've seen, what you've experienced, and what that may look like, coming into the future?
Kevin:Yeah. Our church camps have kinda been down. I'm hoping that it's just because where our church camps have been. I think we're finally getting out of that COVID world, at least I'm hoping we are, where people tend to be afraid of being there. The 1st year we did camp in 21 after COVID was a completely strange year for me because it was so different.
Kevin:You know, I don't wanna be in a cabin with all my kids from my church, and that's it. I see them every week. You know, I wanted that as camper. I wanted to be in different groups, you know, and I wanna hang out with different groups, get to know different kids. And that year, we just you know, we were supposed to eat at our own table as a church group.
Kevin:We were supposed to sleep in our own quarters as a church. I didn't like that at all. Mhmm. But our problem with church camp, I think, lately has been we're so early into the summer, And so now we're moving it back later in the summer. So, hopefully, you know, our kids are gonna be coming back because I see kids have a hunger for God.
Kevin:You know, kids want to know more about what's going on. And I think within church camp, maybe they feel a little bit more relaxed to ask the questions. And maybe it's because, you know, you're the kid or adult goofing off with them on the water slide. You're the adult, you know, playing with them in the swimming pool. You're the one, you know, acting strange with them that they really like.
Kevin:So it's that idea.
T. J.:Yeah. And I I think, you know, when youth and children are in church, a lot of times and maybe all the time, that is an adult world that you're brought into. And maybe a retreat setting, a camp setting removes some of those filters. And also, I think the attention that a youth or child can feel and experience is more centered than it might be in other settings that the Christian community provides for children and youth. What do you think?
Kevin:Yeah. I think there they just simply have the opportunity, I say sometimes, to relax. Because I think within a church setting, sometimes they feel like, alright. They're gonna ask me the question this week. Do you know Jesus?
Kevin:Is he lord and savior? And so they kinda get a little tense. And then within the worship setting, there just tends to be that, well, this is for the adults. So they kind of don't and I admit I was kind of that way as a kid and as a teenager even. You know?
Kevin:Well, this is the adult time. I don't pay attention as much. But within campsite, like, you know, you're there with a teacher, or then you're there in the swimming pool, or then you're there at the water slide, or, you know, you're there in the recreation games. And, you know, while we may still ask those questions, they feel like they know us a little better. They feel like they can they can be themselves.
Kevin:And sometimes, I think it's simply a kid can come to somebody they don't see on a regular basis, and maybe they don't feel that pressure on them. So sometimes my kids may go to talk to somebody else. Some other else's kids may come and talk to me, and they they find somebody they feel comfortable with.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Kevin:And it's just an enjoyable experience, and they realize church isn't this uptight place. But here at camp, we can just be ourselves, we can relax, and we can discuss things without fear of anything. And I always tell kids, you can tell me anything because I will forget probably within 10 minutes anyway, so we're all good. So anything personal, let me know and I'll forget about it.
T. J.:So, Kevin, how do you think you know, I have heard and I've experienced youth and children have, wonderful experiences for camping and retreats, and then they have to return home and to school and to church. So you have these mountaintop experiences and then you go back to kind of regular routine, sports, family, etcetera. How do we bridge those gaps for our youth, our children, and even adults to where those experiences can remain connected. It may not always be mountaintop experiences, but where the faith that you developed over a weekend or a week continues to grow and doesn't get eaten away by the mundane of the rest of the year?
Kevin:Well, I think we have to be intentional about including people. Not just, you know, like I said, with new people coming in, but I think part of the problem is kids get involved at church camp, and then they come home and then again, they're they're sitting there. Mhmm. They're not really doing anything. Same with some of the adults.
Kevin:Some of the adults who, may not do anything in their church, at church camp, or, you know, these great people, and then they go back home and nobody's using them.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Kevin:And so we have to be into Now, we can't overload them, obviously. That's part of the problem with churches is, you know, 90% of the work gets done by 10% of the people. So we gotta make sure we're not overloading them, but we have to be intentional about including them. And if we're not intentional about inclusion, then it's gonna go back to that, you know, they're sitting in the pew again, they're not thinking about it, and then they're asking that same old question, when's camp again? Because they wanna get back to that mountain top.
Kevin:They wanna get back to that experience. They wanna get back to, the faith that they had there. Mhmm. But if we're not intentional of including them within the service, within other aspects, then they're going to fall, you know, back down into the valley and, again, not be doing anything for that next year. And we've gotta give them, you know, obviously, the tools to begin to speak about their faith with their friends.
Kevin:And That's where I think, again, that being intentional about what we do with them.
T. J.:I think this this conversation ties into one of the questions I ask a lot of our guests is, where do you see God's presence in your life today? There's something about camp and a retreat and other settings as well. It's not just limited to there, but the presence of God is really brought before your senses. And that's why I like asking this question is, often we think of previous and past experiences. But if we ask at the end of the day or maybe multiple times throughout the day, where am I experiencing God?
T. J.:Where am I seeing God? Where am I feeling God, hearing God in my life right now strengthens our witness. It strengthens in the way that we have a relationship with God, but also having relationships with others. Okay. So that was a that was a long intro to this question, Kevin, is where are you experiencing God's presence in your life right now today?
Kevin:Well, obviously, I see God's presence within my family, with my wife, with my kids, and the way we we're simply interacting again. I think within the church for me, especially with COVID, you know, we'd like to think, well, it's several years ago, but really still coming out of that. And so our church, probably a lot of church is same way, are still trying to come come out of that struggle of getting people back in the church. And the Sacramento church where I serve, we're starting to come out of that stupor finally. I guess, maybe the right word for it.
Kevin:We're seeing families that hadn't been there for a while coming back. We're seeing families that have you know, they were integral in the church's kids, got married, had kids. Maybe their kids come on Wednesday night, but, you know, they're ever old. Well, I'll be there Sunday. You know?
Kevin:And they've told me that for 6 years, and I've yet to see them there on a Sunday. They're now back. They're there. You know? It was maybe a month or so ago.
Kevin:It was just a regular Sunday. There was nothing special going on. No special there was no potluck. I always say if we have food, everybody shows up. So there was no potluck.
Kevin:There was no reason for it. And it was children's time, which is probably my favorite time of the service anyway when I get, I always say, I get to talk to my kids. And I got down there, and there were, like, 22 kids sitting there. And I was like, what is going on today? Now part of it was somebody had a sleepover at their house, so there were 4 or 5 extra kids.
Kevin:But for the most part of those 22, they were my kids. But, you know, they're just finally starting to come in. And even within our church, of course, a lot of our churches are getting older. Now we have 5 kids 2 years or under. And so it's exciting to, you know, see them, to start playing with them, to start kinda building that relationship with them.
Kevin:It kinda give me that weird look, like, why is this weird guy talking to me? But we're starting to have fun with them. So I see, you know, God at work, within our and I'm starting to see some of those people who are coming back. They're wanting to be involved again. So we tried to start a few things.
Kevin:You know? Somebody said, you know, we've had handbills a long time ago. So one lady said, well, I'll try to direct this if we can do it. So we've got some of these people who are finally coming back. Hey, handbills.
Kevin:That sounds kind of fun. You know? And somebody said, no, brother Kevin. We've got more people than we need for hand bells. What do I do?
Kevin:I said, take me out. My job as minister is not to be involved in everything. My job as minister is to get others involved in it so that I am not involved. You know, I don't wanna be, you know, I'm not gonna be the front and center of the hand bail choir. You know, if you need me to babysit their kids while they play, absolutely.
Kevin:You know, put me in the nursery, let me babysit those kids so that, you know, somebody else can do hand bails. And we've got a few new people who are coming out. We, pass out food once a month, but we get from a place over another town. It's called God's House of Hope, and they have fundraisers. They buy food for older adults who just can't afford everything.
Kevin:You know, I've got new people coming out for that. And, you know, I've I I tried to prove them that I was a manly man. You know? So when I separated my shoulder a year ago, when they finally gave me permission to lift a box, I wanted to show everybody I could do it. And then I realized, wait a minute.
Kevin:They've been doing just fine without me trying to do all the work. Mhmm. You know? And I've got new people here. Step back, Kevin.
Kevin:Let them do the work. You know? Let them know I'm here, I'm cheering them on, but I don't have to be involved in everything. You know? So I think I've seen God present in that.
Kevin:We've got more people, not only coming back to church, but are now starting to get involved within more stuff within the church. You know, people that, you know, like I said, for 6 years, I've been they've been like, yeah. I'll be at church Sunday, but I hadn't seen them. And I've got one guy. He always says, you know, I got a little hair on my arm singeing this morning.
Kevin:So I asked him the other day. I said, got any more hairs on your arm singe? He goes, no. I think God and I are good now.
T. J.:Kevin, you've grown up in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. You're a minister in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. You've attended 2 institutions of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. You're the stated clerk of Cumberland Presbyterian. Let's talk about what you think our denomination is doing really well and let's talk about the areas in which we have room for improvement.
T. J.:We always have room for improvement.
Kevin:Well, you always have room for improvement. What do I think we're getting right? I think over our history, one of the things we've always gotten right is that we've always seemed to look for ways that meets the needs of the whole person is what I call it, I guess, or I probably read that somewhere and stole the idea. It's more what I my wife always says, you misremember a lot of stuff.
T. J.:You know?
Kevin:I have a lot of great ideas that I read somewhere. So, you know, you think about our history. You know, not only have I gone to Bethel and Memphis Theological Seminary, but I worked at the children's home one summer.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Kevin:So, you know, we we've had that where, you know, we we saw a need somebody saw a need within the Carmelon Presbyterian Church, obviously, in Bollinger in Kentucky originally, and then it moved to Denton, Texas. You know, meet the needs of kids who needed family support. One of the things, you know, we were good at prior to 1906 was building colleges. You know, colleges, seminaries for men and women, trying to find ways to educate both. And I think, you know, one of the things we've been good at lately, especially within those institutions, is shifting when we needed to.
Kevin:You know, the Children's Home, when we went back for general assembly this year, one of the things I like about being state of clerk of the presbytery is they said, well, we'll send you to general assembly.
T. J.:Alright.
Kevin:We'll pay your way. I said, okay. I wanna go back to Denton, Texas. You know, and seeing the children's home and how it is now, it's completely different than when I was there when I worked as a lifeguard one summer. I think they only have one cottage family now when there used to be 4.
Kevin:And, you know, and so instead of meeting the needs of 50 kids, now they're meeting the needs of, like, 505,000. I don't remember what the number was. It was unreal when I remember hearing it, because they provide, support. And, you know, one of the things when I was working there, those kids might see their family once a month, but, really, their cottage parents were their parents. But now they've got single family dwellings, you know, where the mother can be taught the skills she needs, to help her kids while they still live together.
Kevin:And, you know, within the seminary, within Bethel, you know, especially Bethel, when you and I were there, 400 was a good number for a year for a number of students. You know, now they're looking at 2,000, something like that. So, you know, all simply because they were able to shift, you know, shift their thinking around, you know, and shift to a way of meeting more needs and finding better ways of meeting the needs. I think within the seminary, you know, obviously, especially in a COVID world, a lot of things went online. When I was on the board of trustees of the seminary, you know, we always kept talking about, well, do we go online?
Kevin:Do we stay in class? How do we figure out a way to do both? Well, COVID just kinda made you do it anyway.
T. J.:Right. It answers your questions.
Kevin:So, you know, they now do more things online, and then they have more hybrid stuff now. So we've we tended to shift when we needed to. Mhmm. And that's, you know, probably what our foundation as a church was in the beginning anyway. You know, we were a frontier church, so the needs of the people had to be met as they could be.
Kevin:And so, you know, if you could get a preacher to go to 4 different churches over the period of a month or, you know, things of that nature, you know, realizing that predestination, well, that that's not right. You know, here on the frontier, we're realizing that's not what the truth is, you know, that God is calling people from any walks of life at any point of time. He's not called certain people before time ever started. And so I think that's where the church our church and the church universal has always got it right is that we've always met the needs of the whole person. Church universal, you know, obviously, there's hospitals, Catholic and Baptist and Methodist hospitals, even Presbyterian hospitals.
Kevin:Obviously, you know, most colleges were started off as a religious institution, you know, in order to meet the needs in orphanages and things of that nature. And, you know, we still continue, I wish we were a little bit more intentional in, you know, some of these in Nashville with the burrito ministry, in Memphis with the burrito ministry, you know, things of that nature. Obviously, in Sacramento where there's 400 people, there's, you know, not that need, but, you know, in other places where we can find where needs are and meet them. It seems like the Cumberland Presbyterian Church has always been able to do that. And so I think that's where the church has got it right.
Kevin:I think where the church is missing I think what the church is missing now is grace. There is a lack of grace within our church. There's a lack of grace within the church universal. There's just a lack of grace within the world, I guess. You know, the divisions between people, especially in our nation.
Kevin:You know, it used to be, I believe this, well, I believe this. Well, let's see where we can work together and move forward. Well, now it seems like it's, this is what I believe. This is what I believe. These are set in stone.
Kevin:And if you disagree with me, you must be, I hate to say, you know, the devil incarnate, but, you know, it's almost like people have gotten to that point where you, you know, people are fired because they say we need to give people some grace. You know, why are why are we not? I mean, that's one of the main things within the Bible is grace. So why is there a lack of grace within the Bible today? Why are we so set in stone on everything that we can't find the commonality and work together and provide grace to one another.
Kevin:And it's very strange because the church should be about grace. That's the one of the main things that the church should be about is offering grace to everyone, and the church seems to be lacking in that today, I think.
T. J.:As we said, always room for improvement.
Kevin:Always room.
T. J.:Kevin, what are you reading? Do you have a couple books that you'd like to recommend to those who listen to the podcast? Besides the Bible, besides the confession of faith.
Kevin:Oh, say Bible confession. Yeah. Actually, what I'm reading lately is, of course, within our presbytery, we have a church up in Philadelphia.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Kevin:Seems kinda strange because the closest church to it is in Harrodsburg, Kentucky. So they're way out there, but Yeah. They're not close. Not close at all. But, you know, when I became a state clerk, reverend Jeff McMichael, who's our missions coordinator, he said we need to get up to Bridgeport and visit those people.
Kevin:I said, absolutely. When do you wanna go? And fortunately, he couldn't make the trip, but, Leslie Wooten, who's our Christian education coordinator, she took her daughter and couple of friends, and I took my wife and son, and we went up there. And then, you know, after we met with the church, we toured around. I've never been to Philadelphia, and I love colonial history.
Kevin:And so, you know, we had to do independence hall, we had to do Benjamin Franklin's things. My son likes that time period, and so after we did all of that, I said, well, let's go down to Colonial Williamsburg and let's see it. So we went down there because I've been there a few times. So I've actually been into, since then, reading the colonial history, religion in that time, just the things they went through. I find that fascinating.
Kevin:You know, I guess maybe in my head, I've idealized that time as a lot of us do. You know, they kinda got up to that point and fought for, you know, our independence from Britain after all these things. So that's really what I've been reading, you know, books that I've liked over the years. Of course, like I said, some of that kind of history, you know, so people called Cumberland Presbyterian, I like to read it from time to time. It's always interesting to me to think of where our ups and downs were and our beginnings of a denomination.
Kevin:Another one I probably do once a year, it's called Seeking Him Spy. Let's see. I think her name is Nancy DeMoss and Tim Grisham, and it's like a 12 weeks study for personal revival. And so there's times in my life when I realize maybe all I've done that week to read is what the lectionary is, what a commentary says about that lectionary, what somebody thinks the sermon should go towards in writing that sermon. Maybe that's all I've read that week.
Kevin:And so, you know, if you do that for a period of time, you tend to get, I guess, maybe, you know, we need reviving at times. Mhmm. You know, one of, you know, things we lack as ministers is we think, well, everybody else needs reviving, and we don't revive ourselves. And so that's always a good one whenever I feel like I get in a rut. You know, that's always a good study to go through.
Kevin:And then one another one that I probably go back to occasionally, and some of these are older books, but I remember reading them and so I just tend to go back to them. There's one called fit to be a pastor, and it's by I think his name is Lloyd Rediger. And it's about the spiritual, mental, and physical fitness of a minister. And, you know, at times in my life, I realize I'm not spiritually fit because, you know, I'm and, again, the only thing I'm reading is the Bible for that week. You know?
Kevin:And then sometimes, mentally, I'm just dragging, and sometimes I allow my physical health to get down. I've I allowed that before in my life. Most people don't know this. I'm a skinny runt. I graduated Bethel at a £127.
Kevin:I graduated seminary at a £120. And so at one point after my son was born, I weighed £207. So I always told the church in Greensburg that I was twice the man I was when I got there. And so, you know, that's when I kinda began more of a fitness journey for myself. I used to be able to eat anything I wanted to and probably lose weight.
Kevin:You know, in high school, the offensive linemen of our state championship football team, they'd be like, Kevin, we can only eat 6 tacos at lunch. How the heck do you eat 10 to 12? I don't know. So, you know, it's always good to again, we need to be, as pastors, we usually tend to think about everybody else.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Kevin:How can I help them in their spiritual walk? How can I help them mentally? How can I help them emotionally? How can I even help them physically? What we don't do sometimes is for ourselves.
Kevin:And so sometimes we need to take a little bit of time, and that's where the seeking him book comes into, but that deals mostly with the spiritual. And this fit to be a pastor kinda deals with the mental, the emotional, and the physical part of maintaining our fitness in order to then be the best servant we can for God in the ministry. So those are usually the books I read.
T. J.:Kevin, thank you so much. Thank you for, chiding me, although you didn't know it, of being able to look at my own life and ministry, encompassing everything, physical, spiritual, and even the relational aspect that, within our families, but also in just the people that we encounter. My friend, it is good to catch up with you. As I said, we just sort of crossed paths. I was just entering into adulthood in Bethel and you were laser focused on getting out of Bethel.
T. J.:And it's kinda neat to fast forward this many years and be able to sit down and have a conversation. This is the longest we've ever had a conversation.
Kevin:I'd say so. Yeah.
T. J.:And,
Kevin:so So, normally, I just stop in at your office and it's like, hey, how you doing, TJ? You know
T. J.:That's right.
Kevin:I've only done that once because we were at a state of clerk conference.
T. J.:That's right.
Kevin:Like, oh, this is where you are, TJ. Okay.
T. J.:It has been a joy to be able to hear your faith journey. Certainly, an inspiration for me and honored to get to know you better.
Kevin:Well, I appreciate it, and I appreciate, you know, these stories that you're getting out about Cumberland Presbyterian. And, we've always said Cumberland Presbyterian are kind of a family. Sometimes we don't know who the long lost cousins are, and we need to know their stories too. So
T. J.:That's so true. Thank you, Kevin.
Kevin:Thanks, TJ.
T. J.:Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road. If you would, share this podcast with your friends, your family, your coworkers, other people in your church and that you come across with and so that they may hear these wonderful faith journeys of people that you've met and people you have yet to meet. In closing, let me read the poem from Langston Hughes called Dreams. Hold fast to dreams. For if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly. Hold fast to dreams, for when dreams go, life is a barren field frozen with snow.
