Kevin Jenkins - Keep Our Eyes Sharp & Our Armor Hard
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. You are listening to The Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. My conversation is with Kevin Jenkins, the minister at the New Hope Cumberland Presbyterian Church outside of Casey, Illinois. On the side, Kevin is a percussionist in a band called Mind, and the music for this episode is an introduction to his skills as a musician. Our conversation travels deep to Kevin's military career, deployments into Iraq, combat, prayer, and a search for answers to God's plan that led Kevin into ministry. Prayer comes up often in our conversation. It's an action where we speak, but also listen, surrender, become focused, and become aware of God's desire to speak to and through us individually and corporately. Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road podcast. If you like this episode, please download and subscribe and share. Enjoy this week's guest, Kevin Jenkins.
T.J.:Alright, Kevin. Here we go. Kevin Jenkins, thank you for being on the podcast today. How are you?
Kevin:I'm well. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. And how are you, TJ?
T.J.:Doing pretty well. Pretty well. Kevin, where are you? Tell over a few minutes about where where you're serving, where you live, and what's happening in your life.
Kevin:At this very moment, I am in my study in a church. It's in the middle of a cornfield in Jasper County, Illinois. The address of the church is at Yale, but it's it's a country church. And I live in Casey, Illinois, which is about 9 miles north of the church. And Casey is a small town.
Kevin:There's a lot of small towns around here. Our mission field is runs between small towns and, rural communities. A lot of, lot of farm communities around the area. There are some, believe it or not, oil fields as well. There's not a it's not just Texas.
Kevin:There's a lot of oil fields in Illinois. And contrary to popular belief, everybody from Illinois is does not live in Chicago. I'm about, little over 3 hours south of Chicago, actually. I'm closer to Saint Louis and Indianapolis. Take I 70 from Saint Louis to Indianapolis.
Kevin:I'm halfway between them. And if you know anything about the area, I'm halfway between Effingham, Illinois and Terre Haute, Indiana. So that's that's where I am physically. I've been here at this church, New Hope Cumberland Presbyterian Church, since, July of 2018, coming up on, well, I guess, three and a half years now.
T.J.:Yeah. The and that was one of the reasons I wanted to reach out to you is to get your perspective of being relatively recently ordained and serving a church, first time as full time and what that experience is is like. How how is it going? Is the honeymoon period over?
Kevin:Well, you know what? It's hard to define honeymoon period when you look back and and and the sentiment, the the eagerness, and the desire, and the and the faith has not changed. Mine hasn't. I I don't think the willingness of the congregation to work toward the same cause has changed. So the honeymoon period may have never been or it's still going, I guess.
Kevin:I'm I'm I'm very I'm very pleased, and I think, we are going through a time. I think, COVID, of course, has changed a lot of things. We had a youth program when I first got here, and and the and the the congregation admitted it had dwindled. The numbers had dwindled a little bit. We were running from a a little in the low to mid twenties on a Wednesday evening for the youth group.
Kevin:And then COVID came about, and, then we tried to start it back. And when we did, it went down to about 5, 7 maybe. 33 to 7, depending if somebody had a ballgame or something, then one family's out, you miss 3 kids. Mhmm. So now I think we're trying to reengage with the community and trying to figure out really what our ministry is.
Kevin:I believe churches, of course, has a has a every church has a mission. You have to figure out, what that is, what that call is, and I think ours has probably, possibly changed, and we just need to, seek the will of the lord and and and follow. I'm not so sure. There's been another church that's come up in the area, and they've really grown their youth program and some of our youth went there, which is fine. As long as God's being glorified, I'm completely okay with that.
Kevin:But, that doesn't mean we get time off or something for us. We have to figure out what that is.
T.J.:Yeah. And you have an interesting background. You retired from the Arkansas National Guard as a army captain. Correct?
Kevin:Correct.
T.J.:So when you were younger, Kevin, what was your dream to be when you grew into adulthood?
Kevin:Oh my goodness. I had a lot of dreams when I was younger, I guess. You know, I I always, there was a time when I was very young, I wanted to be in the military. And I even remember I grew up in in the church, and I even remember a time that I felt called to the ministry at a very young age. And and people who know me as a teenager and a young adult probably can't say that at all, I'm sure, but that's that's still that's the truth.
Kevin:I I felt that I was being called to that. And, oh my goodness. I I'm a drummer, long time drummer, and I and there was a time I wanted to be a musician. And I think you just, even a baseball player. You know, I wanted to be a baseball player.
Kevin:So I had a lot of dreams, but, I have been blessed to be able to do all of those things. I have, I played baseball, till I was, amateur leagues in and around Memphis and Tupelo and Bartlett till I was 32. I, still play drums whenever I can. I've I've done some studio work and thoroughly enjoy that. I retired from the military, and, and and I am a a Cumberland Presbyterian pastor at the moment, bringing the word of the Lord the best I can.
Kevin:So, our God is a good God, and, dreams can be prayers and prayers are answered. You know? So
T.J.:With all those experiences, where have you seen God? Is there any significant story, significant event in your life where you just it was meaningful, it was impactful?
Kevin:Been several, really, where God has shown up and announced his presence. And, it I mean, undeniably undeniably, I I think, as I said, I grew up in the church and went in the military when I was 18. I did 7 years active duty in the Navy, and then I got out of the Navy and, went in the National Guard, the Mississippi Army National Guard, and I was in the Mississippi Guard for 10 years. And then I transferred over, got a new job in the engineer outfit, combat engineer outfit out of Jonesboro, Arkansas, and I was there the last 8 years. But, one of my deployments weather deployment, the last one was in 0 7, I think it was.
Kevin:I had grown closer to God, and I think God spoke to me, and and and I think I wasn't listening, to be honest with you. I, wasn't focused where I should have been focused. I had always maintained a prayerful life, and and I'm not saying that made me okay. Most of my prayers were forgive me for my sins and bless my mom and dad and so on. Not those bold prayers, you know, not those really strong prayers where you're laying it all out there.
Kevin:And then I started praying for certain things in my military career. And, and God has this way of working. It's it's undeniably God. And if you deny it or you have trouble believing it, God has a way of convincing you. When I I I had prayed to get a position to where I could go back.
Kevin:I've been over to Iraq a couple of times before that and and just not really gotten involved in any real action, and I thought, well, you know, that's why I've been that's why I do this job. I wanna do the most I can do, be the best I can be for other people who need me to be the best I can be for them. And then the 3rd time, I I finally got to go back in a combat role. And, then I I don't really know what details I should put in here, but it went on for a a long time where I'm I'm praying for this, and God is answering my prayers. It's just not the answer I'm asking for.
Kevin:And, one thing led to another and I I didn't go. Things happened and I I would not deploy for different reasons. And then it came to a point when I after I had been frustrated, disappointed, sad, I just came to the point where when I truly gave it up and quit asking God to do this for me, and and I said, okay, God. I am, it's yours. I'm yours.
Kevin:I'm gonna I'm gonna do what you want me to do, and I'm not gonna complain anymore. I'm not going to continue to ask you for the same thing anymore because I'm not so sure that's what you want from me. And I want what you want from me, and I want to want what you want from me. And this was, when I was in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, and I had gotten news, probably the second or third time, I think the third time, that, for different reasons, I would not be deploying. And when I said that prayer, I I had I was graduating from where I was there, the, officer basic engineer school, and I was on my way home.
Kevin:And on my way home after graduating, I got a phone call from the unit saying, we need you to go to Iraq. So, God was was in that. I needed to surrender for God to say, okay. Now that you're you're willing and you're listening, we've got you. Well, he's got me where I where he wants me, I guess.
Kevin:He knew how to speak to me because as I go over, as I said, I wanted to be the most effective, in the most effective role I could be. I wanted to do the most good for the people, for the men, that I could possibly go. I went as a platoon leader for, a engineer company that was a wrap clearance company. We looked for bombs and IEDs and things like that. And, we hopefully found them before they found us.
Kevin:That was the that was the goal. And there were several occasions there where I just kind of encountered something. You know, you've got luck. You've got good luck. You've got bad luck.
Kevin:You've got dumb luck, but there came a point when luck could not have been a factor in it anymore. And I and I realized this and I recognize this, and I'm looking around. I'm thinking there's no way I should be here. There's no way I should have made it through that. That's ridiculous.
Kevin:I mean, there was one time when I was in a vehicle, and there were bullets being shot at me, and I was we happened to have a vehicle that day on patrol that had no gun. It was not it was not a gun vehicle. It was more of a mind detector. And being the boss, I could put everybody wherever I wanted them and I wanted to drive that thing. So I'm sitting in this thing that has no gun on it.
Kevin:I'm the only one in it, and it's a mine detector. First of all, you're gonna you know, you're sitting on top of a mine if you're detecting it, which is not a good thing. But nevertheless, we were attacked. There was an ambush that attacked us, and and I'm looking out from this vehicle that I'm in, and and it kinda looks like I guess you could look at it and think see some resemblance to a road grader. So I'm in this road grader looking vehicle, and there's bullets hitting the dirt all around it.
Kevin:They're not hitting the vehicle. They're literally falling into the ground before it gets to the vehicle. There's another time couple of times, they took direct hits. There was this one time when a a rocket was launched at my vehicle, and, and it takes rockets have to be armed for them to explode, and they need a certain distance or a certain amount of time for the mechanism to arm itself. And it was fired too close to my vehicle, so it didn't have that distance necessary.
Kevin:It didn't have that time to to arm. So it hit the vehicle, broke the the bumper in half, and then spit off into the air to my right and blew up in the air. If it had been 16 inches higher, it wouldn't have mattered. It would have come to the windshield. But, you know, so many little things that had to have happened for me to to make it out.
Kevin:There's other examples. But there just came a point when I recognized God was in these events. God was getting me through these events. And I had to ask myself why. And I knew that God had a plan for me.
Kevin:And and I became very excited after a while wondering and and admitting that this is this is the spirit work and this is not luck anymore. So I was eager, very eager to get back in 07, and 08 to find out, to go on this journey. So I started studying and and and looking, and and I retired in 2013, but I spent those last few years kind of looking for the answer. And, so that's that's how my call came about. And when I retired from the guard, I had a everything I've asked God to to help me through and help me with, accomplish all the boxes to check and all this stuff.
Kevin:I had accomplished every single one of them. Commanded a combat company. I've I've done done everything I wanted to do militarily, professionally speaking. And it came to a point where I I just said, okay, god. Thank you.
Kevin:And now I'm ready. I'm I'm ready to follow you. And in 2014, I retired in 13th, 2014. I enrolled, MTS. And, it's funny when I started there, you you I'm sure you can relate to this.
Kevin:As soon as people found out I was in seminary, everybody just automatically assumed that I was going to be a preacher. And, I had that was God took it very slow with me because God knows I can't think that fast. I can't think that far ahead. So he was very slow. He he had a few bombs and bullets in there to help motivate me along the way, and and and that was necessary for me.
Kevin:You know, God's wonderful like that. God can speak to you how you need to be spoken to. And when I started seminary, I had no idea that I would be going into, the ministry field, church ministry. But, lo and behold, that's what God had in store for me.
T.J.:Kevin, let me let's back up just a little bit. I wanna ask a question. Your experiences in combat and these close calls, you relate them to God. How would you articulate and share that with somebody who's who maybe was in the vehicle with you or sharing the same experience as you that took a different take. Like, you alluded to luck that there's more than just luck.
T.J.:How how do you share that? How do you wrap your brain around that?
Kevin:Well, everyone who was in the vehicle with me had gone through we had all gone through similar training. A matter of fact, a lot of the training we had gone through, we we went through together. So, of course, training is designed to prepare you to for your response. You know, things happen unexpected, but hopefully you've covered it in your training, and it's kinda what I was alluding to. I had trained for this for so long.
Kevin:I was really I wanted to do it, so I was praying for it. And and likewise, other people there, we were all we'd gone through intense training, for some time, and we were all motivated and inspired to to do the best we could. And when these things come up, these things happen, you remember the training. You you you just respond because it's almost muscle memory. You remember how what you're supposed to do.
Kevin:There's certain certain responses. But, when you share some of the close calls you say or near misses depending how you look at it, you know there's a higher power. And it's been said, and I can't I can't remember off the top of my head. There are no atheist in foxholes. Well, I can attest to that.
Kevin:When you are in a foxhole or you are even driving behind a vehicle that gets hit or you you yourself are hit, or an ambush takes place, you know, some experience with those, Some of those things, you want there to be a higher power because exactly as as scripture says, you know, God's strength is made perfect is in our weakness. And there is probably no greater weakness as a soldier that you would experience than than being outgunned, outmanned, overpowered, and, or even the thought of such such a thing happening. And even if it's just if you can fight back, even if you have the the firepower to do so, you still need strength somewhere from somewhere. And and I don't think it's necessarily I mean, you we I tell you what we did. I don't know that it was a evangelical opportunity to to speak to my driver and my gunner and say, hey.
Kevin:You know what? You should give thanks to God because, you know, we we should have been shot or we should have been blown up or something. But what we were a group of believers. I mean, we really were, and this this is so much made it so much better when you went into these situations, that you were you knew you were going in with your brothers, not just military that you'd come done all this training with, but you were going in with some believers, beside you that had had faith in that higher power because and and you didn't want it to be up to you. You didn't want that to be up to you at all the time.
Kevin:So we would always say a prayer before we we went on every mission without fail. Every single mission, we prayed before we went outside the wire. And, and we would take turns praying. We would always open it up to anybody who wanted to pray, but usually it was 3 or 4 of us. 1 of might have 9 to 13 on a mission, but usually it's one of the same 4 that would say the prayer all the time.
Kevin:And, we and and it doesn't matter who prayed, It always ended. And I don't remember when it started, who started it, but it always ended with a petition to keep our eyes sharp and our armor hard. The prayer always ended that way. And that was a prayer, a corporate prayer by all of us, for all of us. So that was, it was quite often a shared faith.
Kevin:Most of my soldiers were from Arkansas, Oklahoma, some were from Vermont, Indiana, you you know, the heart of America, the good. So, myself being from Mississippi.
T.J.:Well, I wanted us to go back and kind of reflect on that just for a minute and dig a little deeper. Sure. You were you were talking about you entered seminary, and often the assumption is if you were a seminary student, then you are preparing for ministry to the word and sacraments. You were saying you were attending with kind of a different perspective.
Kevin:Yeah. The first day at seminary, you it may have even been the, indoctrination class before classes started. I'm not sure. But there was either new students or prospective students that had gathered in one of the classrooms, one of the larger classrooms there, and they asked the question, why are you here? And and they went around and they asked everybody that question, and there was, I remember at least one who was going into hospital chaplaincy and another who was going who was a, at La Bonnet Hospital, not a chaplain, but she wanted to, get a degree that helped her minister to the families of these children who were in the hospital.
Kevin:She was she had a position that, really allowed her to get close with the families of of patient children patients. And, and, oh, I think everybody else was church ministry. Everybody. And and I wasn't the first one, but I I wasn't the last one. But I was close to the last one they asked, and and, and I told them my answer was, you know, I mean, there were some people kinda blew me away.
Kevin:I didn't expect this. There were some people who were not only recalled to church ministry, but they'd been in church ministry for 10 or 15 years, and they were just now going to seminary. I didn't really have a full understanding of that. I thought, well, that's great. You know, you're furthering your education.
Kevin:You're it's a call. The call never ends. So you're you're called to know God, and and and how can you better present God to others than studying, continuing to study? Because God's Jesus says, love God with our minds. How can you love with your mind if you don't use your mind to know something?
Kevin:So, I thought that was great. But when they got to me, I answered, as honestly as I could. I said, I don't know why, or what I'm going to do. All I know is that I right now, I am called to be at seminary. And this all started, with my wife and I having a conversation.
Kevin:1 of us was gonna work on our our masters. And and I said, well, the only thing I would rather wanna do really to work on my masters would be, history. I love history. I was a history undergrad. So I I got to go first to work on my my, masters, and that's what it was.
Kevin:And I and I did not know why I was there, but then I as I said, people a lot of people, the smiles came over their face. Some of them looked at me with puzzled looks and things, seminary. But I think all of them, without without exception, thought I was going into the ministry. And it and like I said, God had to work slow with me. I think if God had, thrown that on me all at once and I've known everything all this just instantly known from the beginning, I would have had a lot more to overcome, and God was gonna walk me slowly through that task there, Phil.
T.J.:And so in your seminary journey and your seminary process, were there doors that were opening up to you to kind of how did that work to
Kevin:Yeah. Well, once people found out I was in seminary, I remember I was asked to fill up pulpit. Well, pastor Jim Ratliff first it was the first one to ask me to, preach. We have a sunrise service and a regular service on Easter Sunday. And he asked me if I would if I would want to preach the, sunrise service.
Kevin:And and I don't know what possessed me to say yes, but I said I said sure. And then I thought, my goodness. What have I done? And to preach your first sermon on Easter Sunday. Wow.
Kevin:How how that's a big deal. And then others found out, and I I think I, down near Kasuth, or Corinth, I filled in for a pastor that was on Kamala recently for 2 2 weeks, I think. So it just kinda came out of that, and people started hearing about me, and then there were some people I grew up in Batesville, which is about an hour south of Memphis on 55. And some people down there, church didn't have a pastor, so they asked me. They heard I was, in seminary.
Kevin:So it just kinda took off like that. And I think, again, that's god working to say this is it. You know? Slowly, no obligation, no long term commitment, but slowly he worked through, these opportunities, gave me these opportunities. And and then it became more apparent and I actually enjoyed bringing the word of God to to people who really wanted it because some of these churches didn't have pastors.
Kevin:And, you know, if they didn't want the word of God, well, they could have easily stayed at home or they could have just had Sunday school and gone home, but they wanted to be fed. That, you know, it was just God working all through it.
T.J.:Was there a particular moment where things just kinda clicked and you knew that this is where God was leading you in terms of, well, ministry and ministry in the word and sacraments, or or was it kind of the gradual that you've been talking about?
Kevin:I really think it was gradual. There were a handful of wanted me to take over or or fill the pulpit as a lichenciate, you know, pulpit supply or or become their their pastor in that sense. And and I did not think some of those opportunities were correct. Some of those opportunities were right. And I think I was still it was my apprehension in a lot of ways.
Kevin:But, I also thank God was working working that out and and to lead me here to new hope. I remember one interview, someone asked, what assurances can I give them that once I get ordained that I won't leave? And and I thought, wow. You know, that's a that's a tough question because I haven't been planning this out myself. I can't tell you what the plan is, 2 years from now, 3 years from now.
Kevin:I can't tell you that. And, so I didn't feel comfortable taking that position because I kinda felt like they were they felt like they were investing in me, and and and I wanted to be where the lord wanted me to be. And how this church came about, I told my wife, Samantha, that if anybody calls and ask us to come preach, we're gonna do it. I'm not gonna turn anybody down. I'm not gonna say no, because that's I believe I had, by this time, come to the belief that, and trust that, God was calling me to do it.
Kevin:And the thing for me to do is obey God. And, if anyone asked, then I was gonna show up and bring the word. I was called by a church out of Illinois, and that is the last place on earth I would have picked for myself probably. But, I was called for this church. And, a lot of other churches I've preached at been offered, some some pastorate opportunities, and and I really appreciate that.
Kevin:Some of them were very attractive. I felt really good about it. But when I came up here, I I told Samantha, well, you know, it's we're gonna go up there and probably go all the way up there and preach a Sunday and come back and never hear from them again. But it wasn't that at all. I I think this is, they lost this church lost their pastor, about the same time I started seminary.
Kevin:And, one of the elders here, led the congregation in prayer at that time for their new pastor. And it's just really, again, to me, it's it's undeniable that God was working it from that very point years ago that in 2014 or whenever it was when he that previous pastor resigned, they said a prayer for God to prepare their pastor, and lo and behold, I'm starting seminary about the same I mean, exactly around the same week. You know? So that that's that's God. And we we none of us knew this.
Kevin:None of this came out till I've been here probably several months anyway. But, yeah, that's working.
T.J.:That's an interesting, viewpoint because you've got these 2 paths, congregation and and you, the individual. And to see them begin about the same time and then intersect.
Kevin:Yeah. That's pretty That is a plan. I mean and I and when I was asked about that, I had no plan. I couldn't tell you what it was gonna be in a year from now or a month from now even. I was just taking it daily, trying to get through, trying to achieve and accomplish, check all the boxes, but God was working the whole time.
Kevin:I didn't know what his plan was, but I was I had submitted myself to it.
T.J.:And nor the congregation had any idea who their next minister was gonna be.
Kevin:Yeah. Well, I think some of them were surprised as I was that some some some guy from Mississippi was willing to come to a cornfield in in Illinois as I was that I had been called, and and I never thought to to turn the call down. It was never even, something I had to debate or figure out or weigh the options. You know? It's just I was called to do it.
Kevin:I was called to be here.
T.J.:Kevin, with all this openness that I'm hearing in your life, in your faith journey, this openness to god and and god's leading and the ability to discern and practice with this openness, where are you seeing god today in your own life?
Kevin:Well, when we moved here, I I took a pretty substantial pay cut. About more than half of my salary was gone. And, and we we made pretty good profit on the house. We we bought a house here. We looked around for 6 months.
Kevin:The housing market here is what the housing market is here, but it's not like it is anywhere else. There's a lot of old houses, houses that need work, and we kinda developed the the the desire to move into a house where we didn't have to immediately go to work on it. And we looked at, oh, I don't know, dozen houses maybe. And, there was one that stood out that we really wanted, and it was out of our price range. We couldn't we couldn't couldn't afford it.
Kevin:Time goes by. Things happen. We get this house, and we considered it to be a blessing, of course, a gift from God. So, we made a vow. You know, you don't have to make a a vow to God, really, but we we just told each other that we have to use this house for ministry.
Kevin:So we we have had, since we've been here 3 years living in that house, well, less than 3 years, we've had 3 exchange students. We have another one coming in January. We have, opened the house to many people over over the time we've been here, and that's just one way. And that's that's us opening ourselves for God to work through us, and and we hope that these these young people receive that and and notice that and recognize that. One thing we do, is each student comes while they're here.
Kevin:And if they're listening, the ones we've got now will will know what's coming, but we give them a Bible that is in English and in Spanish. Or this this child's in Spanish. We've had a German kid, a Thai kid, and we've got one coming from Denmark. So what we do is we get a Bible that's in English and their native language, and and it and, that's our one of our gifts to them. So that's that's God working.
Kevin:But for God to work, God works in us. He works God works through us. There that's I mean, sure, God is capable of of doing things without you, like my experience in Iraq. You know? God was there present, making things happen, allowing me to notice those things, providing opportunities through different churches and and and New Hope.
Kevin:But God when we see God working around us, God is working through us. We have to allow ourselves to to be used. And that's one of my prayers is that we, as a people, as a church, and me as a person, give myself to God for that use. And and I know you can see that, especially in Memphis. It's pretty easy to see some of the stuff that's done in such a great volumous populated area.
Kevin:I mean, you've got ministries that reach out to people there. Here, it's not as prevalent. The ministries we do here are reaching out to individuals and and families. And a lot of times we don't know about that until they tell us, until they ask. And sometimes we've got a pretty good session and and I ask that they try to keep their finger on the pulse of the congregation, but also the community.
Kevin:We don't just minister to the church. We have to reach out into the community. You know, pastor Jim Ratliff used to preach, one of his main ministry points to just bring home and drive and drive and drive was turn the walls out. You gotta go out. You you you can't keep your ministry inside walls.
Kevin:You have to go out. So we we do that. And, again, where I see God working, I see God working through the church, and I see God working through individuals. And that's a it's a lot of ministries going on. Sometimes you have to look for them, and sometimes they're very
T.J.:obvious. Well, I believe that that is the core because we are in a relationship with God as individuals. And in terms of sharing our faith, we have to have a relationship with another individual and a trust developed and a rapport developed to be able to talk about these grand transformative power that can be experienced through having faith through Jesus Christ. And that that comparison of these grand ministries that are reaching multitudes of people, But if I am the recipient of that, I I can only look at it through my own lens and my own experience. So there there's so much advantage of being part of the community where you have these great opportunities for intimacy
Kevin:and to be
T.J.:and to be able to share not only the time, but the space that we occupy with another person.
Kevin:Very true. We are created in the image of God, and God's image is in relation. I mean, he wants to be in relationship with us. He created us for that. He he walked in the garden with Adam and Eve.
Kevin:So, I mean, he wants to be, but God is a holy God. You can't just approach God at your leisure. I mean, we have to prepare for that. But, nevertheless, we are created, and that's where repentance comes in, by the way. But we are created in in that image, and God not only wants to be in relationship with us, but if we're created in his image, then we are created in the image of being in relationships.
Kevin:So it's just our our nature. It is our nature to be together when we, just have breakfast or together when we when we're doing ministry or together when we worship because God created us to be that way. So, John John's first epistle, one John, the first four verses of it, I I think, speak to that. John writes that, you know, he he had an advantage because he said we see, we hear, we we've touched, we've touched Jesus. We had John touched Jesus.
Kevin:And in the physical sense, we haven't had that opportunity to physically touch Jesus, I in that sense in that sense. But we are called to be in fellowship together, John writes. And in our fellowship, he says, is with God, the father, and Jesus, the son. And and he closes out that that introduction of the letter by saying, this in this, my joy is complete. In fellowshipping with God and Jesus and each other in with God and Jesus, his joy is complete.
Kevin:So and I I think, we are called to fellowship together. And and I think those of us who are, you know, there's a lot of people who who I believe are Christians or have Christian beliefs and practice Christian and believe in Jesus like I did for years and and and pray and have that that type of relationship. We're missing out on a great aspect of the relationship when we do not fellowship together in the name of the lord and we don't worship together. And, and I would like to see us get back to where the church is a little bit more more a prevalent ministry in society. I don't know that the church is failing.
Kevin:I just think there's a lot of forces working against what the church is working for, and and we can't give up and we shouldn't get belligerent or over the top or extreme in any situation and but, we need to be in fellowship together. And it's you know, sometimes the tragedies bring us together, But I hate that it has to be 9 elevens and things of that nature that, make people look back and and reconsider their their place in society.
T.J.:Yeah. We we shouldn't rely on, shared losses to to to motivate us, to be able to to draw us together. Shouldn't rely on those alone to be put into action. Right. You had mentioned the word earlier, repent.
T.J.:Been doing some reflecting and and, I I'm seeing repent and repentance, as a as a self awareness.
Kevin:Mhmm.
T.J.:For for us to be to be able to repent, there has to be a little discernment and sort of a a self awareness of who I am and who I could be. And, it's just a thought I've been chewing on to open into thought and and and question is is repentance is also being self aware of who I am. And, a lot of times, we spend a lot of energy, avoiding that kind of self awareness.
Kevin:Right.
T.J.:Maybe it comes with age as well. Maybe maybe it does. Wisdom. Right? Well, just because I'm getting older doesn't mean that wisdom is growing along with
Kevin:But you can say that. It just makes it sound better.
T.J.:Well, yeah. Hey. You were, Kevin, you were alluding to, the community and being involved more in the in the community and the having those fellowship aspects and turning the walls outward as reverend Jim, was had referred to and preached about many times. Right. What will that look like in terms of ideas for the church and and its involvement in its local community and also the global community as well?
T.J.:What what hopes do you have for the the church at large?
Kevin:Well, that that's really a a great question, because what we have to do you you mentioned repentance means awareness. I think as as a church, you know, the church, not just you and I, we can repent, but the church should repent as well. We we have made some mistakes over the years, but, repentance or becoming aware, allowing ourselves to to become aware of what's going on out there, is something that we need to do because, what happens in those cases well, let me let me tell you my personal experience. I I was brought up in the church, and my my grandparents and my mother my grandfather was a Methodist minister, and my mother grew up in the church, so that was what she knew. And and she took me to church, and that was what I knew growing up.
Kevin:It was part of my existence. It's what I did every week, you know? And, when I I tell people when I turned 18, I exercise first thing I did was exercise my God given free will to not go to church. So so I didn't go to church for about 9 years, but the thing is that had been instilled in me. I knew it was there.
Kevin:So I came to a point in my life where I realized, I recognized, something was missing that that I had had before that is there, still there. So I knew what it was. What we have to do is provide as a church, what we have to do is provide that awareness so when things happen, people know we are there. People are aware of our existence. Now you can turn the walls and I and this is from my experience as well.
Kevin:You can you can turn the walls. You can go out into the community. You can host events that would draw the community in. The fact of the matter is that doesn't keep them there. It it really doesn't make them want to come.
Kevin:And and church is one of the hardest things to do anymore is is grow a church, and that's what everybody's answer is. Well, I don't know that that should be our answer. I think our answer should be make them aware we are here because when the time comes, whether it's a 9:11 or whether it's something that somebody knows in their own existence, They've come to a point where they need something else. They have an awareness of where they can look to find that. And and I I think that's what we need to do.
Kevin:We we should not I I I really think it's dangerous. It's a slippery slope. If we think we're gonna turn the walls out, and that's just means automatically because you're doing that, you're gonna have people come. You're gonna grow. You're gonna glorify God in that way.
Kevin:We should not, measure our success or the glory of God by our successes or or our failures. We should just we need to make present an awareness. And if and if something happens, then they know we're here. And where we have felt is if they don't know we're here. They have people have to know the church is here.
T.J.:Yeah. Kevin, I think there's a we've blurred this distinction between church growth and evangelism.
Kevin:I agree.
T.J.:And, you know, the church growth comes from one specific motivation, and making disciples also has a different mission or motivation. And we often blur those and use those terms and motivations interchangeably. And I just think that we as we continue as a community of faith, that's a conversation that we we need to have so that we can go, okay. We are doing this because we want the church to numerically grow and or we are doing this because we really want to answer the call of making disciples. And if church numerical growth comes from that, that's great.
T.J.:But that's our secondary motivation for sharing the good news. Amen. And I think we we blur that at times and use those terms interchangeably. Yeah. I think that's true.
T.J.:Kevin, how can folks listening to this podcast continue to follow you on your face journey? Where can we find
Kevin:you? Well, I'm in a cornfield in Illinois. We have a we have a Facebook page, New Hope CP Church Yale, yale, Illinois. And, we do livestream. I do a devotion each Wednesday.
Kevin:We have we livestream the service on Sunday mornings. And we have other activities you can find that are posted there. When when we have such activities, we always advertise them there. Have a website, new hope cpchurch.org. Actually, probably need to update that because it's still got a lot of the COVID, particular things relative to COVID that if now a lot of them, we don't do exactly that way anymore, but, probably should update that website.
Kevin:But that's get some information on it. I, if you're in this part, you can certainly call or, prepare, and I'd love to meet with other CP folks. I, this is North Central Presbyterian if we're up this way. We just had a presbytery meeting this past weekend. So if anybody wants to come to one of those, I'll be there too.
T.J.:And you're continuing your ministry as well. Mhmm. Your, your education in, at Trinity?
Kevin:Yes. Talk more about that
T.J.:for a minute.
Kevin:Well, you know, when I I got up here, I I I wanted to do that. It was always a a thought was to, not because I I wanna have doctor on my tombstone or anything like that, but, I just really enjoy studying. And as I said earlier, you know, Jesus commands us to love God with all our mind, and I I think it I think it will help me help others, but it also helps me. And, kinda like I started when I started seminary, I God allowed me to believe it was for my benefit. And this is something I'm doing because I I wanted to study the bible.
Kevin:And I'm I'm just more disciplined, I guess, to do such do those things when when there's a deadline or there's, it's it's told you have to do this research or or or read this or or listen to this lecture or whatever the case may be. Whereas if I wasn't required to do it, I might not do it. So it's kind of a personal self discipline type thing, and and I really enjoy it. It's bible studies. I'm going back and forth on what my, doctoral project will be, my writing project will be.
Kevin:I've got some some ideas. And as soon as I think I've settled on 1, something else comes into my mind. But I I have to, so I'm relatively early in the process. I I think I've got 7 hours behind me, and I'm taking I'm enrolled in 5 now, but it's coming to the point where I'm gonna have to really stop thinking about it and and start doing it. So I have to figure that out.
T.J.:Kevin, thank you for being a guest today. Thank you for sharing your life experiences, and I I really appreciate it. I really do.
Kevin:Well, I I thank you for asking me. I think this is a a great thing, a great ministry of the CP Cumberland Presbyterian Church, that we get to hear these stories because no matter who you are, where you preach, where you went to seminary, we all have a story. You know? We all have testimony, and you and you allow us to a lot of ways to not only speak our testimony, which is we were called to do, but you're allowing others to hear it, which what good would it do and why would God tell us to speak it if nobody's listening? So kudos to you.
Kevin:Thank you.
T.J.:Kevin, thank you. Thank you for sharing. And folks for tuning in, thank you for joining this episode of Cumberland Road.
