Larry Blakeburn - Keeping The Main Thing As The Main Thing
Here is the Cumberland Road podcast, and I'm your host, TJ Malinovsky. The following is a conversation with reverend doctor Larry Blakeburn, an ordained minister serving the First Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Larry is a former president of Memphis Theological Seminary, a Vietnam veteran. He has moderated 5 different presbyteries. He has served 5 different congregations throughout his ministry.
T.J.:Larry is one of the 2 current nominations, the General Assembly Moderator of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and he sat down with me for about an hour to share his faith journey. We talk about his Christian faith growing up, his understanding of ministry, and reflections of the church in the 21st century. Here is my conversation with Larry Blakeburn.
T.J.:Larry, thank you for joining me. My I want to open our conversation with this question. What early experience can you recall of encountering God? What's an early faith experience for you or moment for you?
Larry:The first time I really remember experiencing the presence of God. I was 8 years old in Sharon, Tennessee when my father was in seminary at Bethel, and I still to this day believe I heard God speak to me, call my name. It's kinda like the Samuel thing. Mhmm. And it went 3 times, it was 2.
Larry:But at that moment, I felt God's presence. And the rest of that day, being 8 years old, walking around, feeling the presence of God, it was at that point that I decided I needed to profess my faith. And I talked to my father about it, and he thought he he didn't try to talk me out of it, but he thought I was too young to do that. But he didn't wanna discourage me either, so I did. I bet next Sunday, I went forward.
Larry:I professed my faith. And as I remembered, I was also I had thought I was baptized at that time as well. But really from that moment on, from 8 years of age, it had always been in my mind that that's what I would do as a vocation. God called me into ministry. Now over the years, I had a couple of other things I thought about doing and a couple of other things I did actually do, but it was always there.
Larry:And then throughout, you know, my childhood and then adolescence, young adulthood. I've had several very meaningful encounters. A lot of them for most of us, not maybe you, church camp where you feel the presence of God, you're away from all the distractions, and you just kinda feel him there out in nature. And I've had several moments at church camp like that. And then when I was a senior in high school was when I came under the care of the president of East Tennessee as a candidate for the ministry.
Larry:Yeah. And then went to Bethel College back then was what it was called. And I was a ministerial student. And I can tell you about my faith journey if you want me to keep going on that topic.
T.J.:Yeah. Please.
Larry:Of course. Bailed what derailed that whole thing? Well, when I went to college, I majored in extracurricular activities. I had the I I pledged a fraternity, phi Delta Sigma, which was ministerial students just did that. Then I was in every play that Bethel put on.
Larry:I was in the Bethel Balladeers. I was in student government association, and I kinda forgot that the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:And so after 2 years of majoring in extracurricular activities, Bethel invited me not to come back for a quarter. It was called academic suspension. So I said, oh, yeah? Do that, will you? Well, I'll show you.
Larry:So I joined the marine corps. Well, in in all honesty and transparency, you know, this was during this was 1968, and the Vietnam war was going on. And a lot of people avoided the draft by going to Canada. Well, I avoided the draft by joining the marine corps. And, yeah, and they sent me to Vietnam.
Larry:Now this is where the twist comes in. After Vietnam, and when I came back, when I went into the marine corps, I was a ministerial candidate. When I got out of the marine corps, I wasn't. And the reason was and it wasn't that I ever stopped believing. I always believed.
Larry:It was, oh, you know, Horace Bushnell, a pioneer Christian educator, said it's the purpose of Christian education to train a child in such a way that they will never know themselves to be anything other than a Christian. Mhmm. Well, that's me. I've always been a Christian. Well, when I came back, it was like I told God, I I can't do this.
Larry:After doing the things that I've done, after seeing the things that I've seen, I'm not worthy to stand in a pulpit and preach to anybody. And that was and still is true. Well, eventually, I I did a couple of other things. I was in a professional acting company for a while, and then, finally, Paul Brown was the one who actually got me to go back to Bethel. And I went back, and Bob Prosser was the pastor of the McKinsey church at that time.
Larry:And then, really, by the time my senior year rolled around, I discovered what the grace of God was really all about and what the cross of Christ and his blood washing away all my sin, what that really mean. Because before the marine corps, I thought I deserved to go to heaven. I was kind of naive, but I was really a good kid. Well, afterwards, I knew I didn't deserve to go to heaven, but it was like God called me in my senior year. I felt the call.
Larry:I felt God saying, I want you to go into the ministry. And I said, no. I can't do that. And God said, well, why not? And I said, you know why not.
Larry:I'm not worthy to do that. And it was like God said, okay, Larry. And he did this to Bob Prosser and some of the professors that helped me walked me through this. He said, okay. I want you to build the Bible, and I want you to show me one person that I've used in there that deserve to be used.
Larry:You showed me just one person who was sinless. Well, there's only 1, and you're not Jesus. So you can't use that as an excuse. And so it was at that point, and it was really like this huge weight was lifted from me. And so I did.
Larry:I came back under the care of the presbytery of East Tennessee, and I guess the rest is history. But because of that, profound sense of unworthiness, I am very open to others who are not worthy of being used as ministers, and yet God still somehow working through our imperfections, working through our sin, and yet touching and blessing the lives of others. It keeps me from being in any way judgmental or or prideful because I know I have no right to be the one. And so it in a way, it was a difficult experience for me, but I think for my spiritual development, it was an important period of time Mhmm. For me.
Larry:So that's kind of my spiritual journey.
T.J.:Alright. You've given me a lot to unpack. We'll see how much how much, you would like to touch on. So, you're talking about extracurricular activities as a degree. What was your mindset then?
T.J.:Were you going to do sports like in, you know, an academic setting? What what were you what was the plan?
Larry:Oh, the plan was in order to become a minister, you have to get an undergraduate degree and a graduate degree. So I'm just gonna get the degree. It really wasn't about knowledge. It was really about I'm gonna enjoy freedom. I'm gonna enjoy this this time.
Larry:And okay. Here's an interesting thing from my perspective. When I went back the second time after the marine corps
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:I was still involved in all of the same things. I was in every play they put on. I was ended up being president if I dealt the sigma. I was vice president of the student government association. The difference the second time, priorities and discipline, where I was going back to get an education, not to get a degree.
Larry:That one the focal point was to gain as much knowledge as I could. And so it was academics first and all the extracurricular activities, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Before it was extracurricular first, academics last. If I had any time for it, I'd study, which usually meant I didn't have any time for it. I was just having a good time.
Larry:And I did I think I did very well when I went back the second time. But that is what one of the things, when I talk to graduates before they go to school is your question. Why are you doing this? What's gonna be your top priority? Where are you gonna spend your time?
Larry:And it's important to decide sometimes in that 1st year, it's not good to be distracted with a lot of extracurricular. You may do 1, but don't get overwhelmed with other things. Because most people when we first go, we're not quite mature enough to handle Yeah. All of that.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Larry:Later in life, we learn how to to balance and discipline ourselves in a slightly better way. But, no, it wasn't academics. I wasn't at all interested in that. My brother, Mark, was a year younger. He was very interested in academics.
Larry:He did really well.
T.J.:Yeah. Speaking of family, what was the family reaction when you acknowledged the call into the ordained ministry? Because you your your father was an ordained minister in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Was it was it, full of, jubilation and joy? Or it was like, may I try to talk you out of that?
T.J.:Ministry is a tough go. So what was the response?
Larry:That's another great question. My father is and I have such great admiration, and he's one of the reasons I went in the ministry. It's a combination of the 2. I think he was proud, he was excited that I was doing it, but he wanted to make sure I wasn't doing it because of him.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:That to call when I wanna be like dad, So I'm gonna go into ministry. And also talking about because it is difficult being a minister, and he did talk about all of that. And, you know, obviously, I came I'm I'm not doing it because of my father. But because of my father, I felt very comfortable doing it. Mhmm.
Larry:Mhmm. Because I respected him so much. So it was a little combination of the 2. Not, oh, boy. I can't wait or, oh, don't do that.
Larry:It was, let let's think about it. We'll pray about it. And you have time, and that's what the candidacy that that whole process, that's why it's there, to help us kinda walk through is this really what we wanna do? Are we doing it because of parents' pressure or their church's pressure? Or are we doing it because we genuinely feel a call
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:From God and I genuinely felt a call from God.
T.J.:It is certainly a time of exploration. This is your time to explore inwardly, outwardly, gather responses, practice ministry. It's for those who are thinking about it and for those who are in, as a candidate. Soak it up as much as you can. I took a different approach.
T.J.:I couldn't get through fast enough. But I started so early that it was still a long process just because of my age of of when I became a candidate. But looking back, those are good opportunities to take your time, seek out opportunities to serve, observe, because you you gain so much, from the experience and the education. The education isn't just academics. The education also comes from the people that you were serving with and 2.
Larry:Yeah. It's amazing how much individual churches that I have served have formed who I am now spiritually. Because I was raised yeah. I don't know quite how to put this.
T.J.:Bluntly. Bluntly. Put it bluntly. Yeah.
Larry:I I hate to. Really, my first church in terms of actual evangelism, My first church taught me more than anything else that I've been through in how to share my faith. I hadn't been with a congregation like that, you know, really through my entire life and what they teach you in seminary at the time really didn't deal with it. Mhmm. And they dealt with it very openly, very warmly, in a very positive way, evangelism explosion, lay witness mission, training you how to share your faith, how to share the gospel.
Larry:And I've never been around any of that. And and as a matter of fact, because of that, well, not because of that, but where the church was located in Fort Worth, the community just grew up around us, and the church grew. Well, it outgrew my ability to lead. And that's what prompted me to go back back to school and to work on the doctorate. And the original thought was to do it in evangelism at Fuller.
Larry:But j David Hester, who I think graduated from 4, he was a president of Memphis Theological Seminary at the time, Talked me into going to our seminary. But that was it. It did outgrown my ability to lead. I didn't quite know how to do it.
T.J.:Well, that takes a level of humility to be able to go, woah, this growth, this ministry that I'm a part of expands beyond my understanding or or my abilities, and I need to educate myself. There have been and are and probably will be places in my own ministry where I will push that small voice away because of my ego or or to impress somebody, whatever it may be. But you were solid enough to go, I need more guidance on this, and I I'm going to continue to prepare myself for whatever ministry brings. It takes a big person to be able to do that.
Larry:One of the things in that at Saint Luke and Fort Worth, they encouraged me and paid for me to go to at least 1 and they encouraged 2 workshops, seminars. Mhmm. And those were extremely helpful, in events like, breaking the 200 barrier in evangelism, but that wasn't the only we had several different and I wish more churches would do that, Pay for and encourage our pastors for continuing education, for workshops, for seminars, to help enrich their ministry. And it was one of those, and I may have mentioned this to you, because you mentioned and I don't know if you said you like the outline I put in the bulletin, but, yeah, you you commented on the fact to remember that I put an outline of the sermon in the bulletin. Well, I got that from one of the seminars, and I heard John Maxwell, who has passed with that time Skyline Wesleyan Church.
Larry:He was one of the best speakers I have ever heard, and he didn't preach behind a pulpit. And he had an outline of his message, his sermon. Now he had blanks in the outline, so he had to listen and fill in the blanks Okay. That he went through. So I said, because I was so impressed with how he preached, I said, I'm gonna try that.
Larry:Holy smoke is that scary when you first do it, getting away from your manuscript, getting away from the pulpit Mhmm. Printing an outline so everybody knows where you're supposed to be going, so you better know where you're going. That was it it took me a little there was a period of adjustment there.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:But I really like the freedom that it's given me. I don't stay behind the pulpit. Mhmm. And it's like I am I'm not preaching at them or to them. I'm just talking with them.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:I'm just sharing. And most people not everybody likes it, by the way. Me being not behind the pulpit. There are those who'd rather I'd stay there. Most people I think are okay with it Just about everybody likes the outline.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:And I've had several people say they take them home, and they would use it to remind them of what I was talking about. Now we video it, and it's on YouTube. But they will use it, and they will share it. Not all of them because some of them aren't worth looking at, but there are some of them that they will then share with other people.
T.J.:Yeah.
Larry:So I've kind of been encouraged by that part, but all of that came out of didn't come out of seminary because they do not teach that in seminary. I talked to Mary Lynn Hudson about that, matter of fact, what she thought about it. She wasn't that crazy about it. Did not really respect her and her opinion.
T.J.:Well, for our listeners, for context, as, I had reached out to you, we we had talked and just in our casual conversation and in preparation for this conversation, you were at one of the churches that I grew up in and that was one of the things that I recalled is the church had a bulletin at the time and then the bulletin insert was your sermon outline. And I was I've remembered that. I don't remember a specific sermon outline, but I remember the I remember the practice. And there was a point in my ministry where I had tried that. You know, I've tried note cards, memorization, manuscripts, outlines, conversational.
T.J.:You know, just over the you know, from teenage years to middle age years, it's good we have to find your preaching voice. And then visit visit some, you know, over the course of your ministry, visit different techniques and revisit different techniques to see what fits for you, what fits for that specific sermon, and the congregation or the listeners. So I do remember that, and it was an expectation within the bulletin as you open it up. At minimum, it became a preview for the listener in the pew of, like, where are we going? What are we going to talk about?
T.J.:And you could even see the point of arrival vaguely see the point of arrival. Now, I mean, there's pros and cons to that. One is, depending on the listener's frame of mind is, I'm not plugging in because I'm not interested in this particular theme or text or whatever. Or the opposite of that is, wow, based upon the outline, this is speaking to where I currently am. And you're able to tone out all the different distractions and lean in to where the message is taking.
T.J.:So it's a worthwhile practice. It's worthwhile at minimum that I still remember that you did that way back in my teenage years? And it's good to hear that it is still something that you use now.
Larry:It's interesting. I'm a visual learner Mhmm. And those who are visual love the outline. Educators, Almost we have a a lot of teachers in, well, just about every church I've had, but the one I'm in now, teachers really like it. But a point you made, and I've made this point in the sermon, not every sermon is for everybody.
T.J.:Right.
Larry:I want it to touch everybody, but there are gonna be times when, yeah, you look at the outline and go, okay, like this Sunday I'm gonna be talking really to graduates. Well, most of my congregation are older. They you know, they're they're gonna go, yeah, yeah, I know about all of that. And it it's not so about 90% of them probably not gonna get a whole lot out of this one, but I think graduates, I think they will. Right?
Larry:I'm praying
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:That they will anyway.
T.J.:Yeah. Because of the stage of their life.
Larry:Yeah.
T.J.:Yeah. This is a new season.
Larry:Yeah. A great start. Yeah. Gosh. It's a big transition Mhmm.
Larry:For most people. It was for me.
T.J.:Well, hey, speaking
Larry:I didn't handle that well, but hey, you know.
T.J.:Yeah. Speaking of transitions, what a transition from the academic world in the late sixties to the marines to the military. What made you make that life choice in a Cali right in the middle of the conflict in Vietnam.
Larry:Yeah. And this is interesting for me too. And it was basically as I said before, I didn't wanna be drafted. I wanted to pick the branch of service. And, initially, all I wanted to do, I would I just went to the recruiting station, and they had a place there for army, navy, marines.
Larry:And I really wanted to go into the navy, but the only one that would give me 2 years besides the army was the marine corps. And so that's when now here's the interesting part of that. A couple of things. 1, I didn't know if they sent me to Vietnam, I don't believe in the taking of human life. I I just don't.
Larry:And now I'm even more conservative on that than I was then. I didn't know if I could kill anybody. Seriously. I said, they'll send me over there, and I'm gonna be worthless. Well, I still when I got there, you discover, your capacity for self preservation is pretty strong, and I figured out I could.
Larry:I never had to. I think it would have done a lot of damage to me emotionally, psychologically if I did. But where I was with artillery battery, it was all defensive. And I was in administration, I didn't go out on many patrols at all, just a few. And we were always instructed don't fire unless you're fired upon.
Larry:And and for and we had a couple of occasions where we encountered them, they encountered us, but no fire was exchanged. So I am grateful for that part of it. Another interesting part, when I got back my brother Mark is a year younger. He and most of my friends were protesting the war while I was in the war. And my brother asked me when I got back, did it bother does it bother you that I protested the war?
Larry:And I said, good heavens, no. Look. A part of that is that's one of the reasons you defend the freedom of people to have freedom of expression. But I said, well, there are a lot of us who weren't crazy about being there either
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:And weren't really you know, what's the point of this? It was I remember one time, we're sitting there, and and we got a lot of incoming because we're with artillery battery. And and the last 3 days were really brutal, and I got a Vietnamese cross a gallantry for not dying. But I remember and there were 3 days, really bad days, and and when we first started it on red alert, we're lined up, and I'm looking at all of us are, like, 18 to 21 years of age. And I said, this is stupid.
Larry:Unbelievable waste of human life because we're not all gonna make it out of this. And and they did. We we didn't. They didn't make all of us didn't make it out of it. Another interesting thing, I didn't tell anybody I that Vietnamese cross a gallery for 20 years, and I figured out it was survivor's guilt.
Larry:I felt guilty about surviving when they didn't make it. That's it. You know, the ones who need the award, the medal for those who didn't make it. Now I see it more if I tell people about it. It's it's in honor of those who did sacrifice their lives at that point.
Larry:And so I don't feel guilty about having it, although I still didn't do anything. Right. But I just didn't die. Didn't didn't get killed. But that was and and my father made it somebody told me about this, and I can't recall the story exactly.
Larry:Stan Wood, I think, is the one who may have told me about it. It was at CPYC, and daddy, my father, was preaching. And I think Paul Brown was there, and Paul, you know, so liberal, and he was in very dramatic. He was talking about the horrors of war, and he acted out people falling down and dying and how horrible it was. And my father in his sermon made the comment because I was in Vietnam at that time.
Larry:And he said, I have one son in Vietnam. I have another son protesting the war in Vietnam, and you're asking me to choose between the 2. He said, I can't do it. I love both sides. And that was one of the things I don't think they were crazy about me making that choice.
Larry:I'm joining the marine corps. But they always supported the decisions their children made. Mhmm. Mhmm. Whether they agreed with those decisions or not, they respected our opinion.
Larry:They respected enough not to put us down, then integrate us to say that was the dumbest thing you've ever done. Although they may have thought that, but they did they did not say that. And that's one of the things that there are so many things that I respect about my parents, but that's one of them.
T.J.:It's interesting to, revisit this part with you because if we go back in time when you were at the West Nashville church, I'm about the age that, you would have been in Vietnam, you know, after because you were still at my home church even after my graduation. And so during that time period, every once in a while, you would mention something in the sermon or just in casual conversation. But when asked directly I can remember this. You You would push back a little bit, kindly, but push back, you know, just answer the question, but not much detail. And now, fast forward a few years later, several years later.
T.J.:And, it's a very different conversation about your experience in Vietnam. That's kinda neat.
Larry:Takes time to process that.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:And I think difficult times in anyone's life, traumatic experiences, It takes time before you're able to really process it and talk about it Mhmm. And feel comfortable. That kind of experience, some people never get comfortable talking about, and it depends. Some people, what they go through is a whole lot worse than what I went through.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:And you you don't wanna think about it. You just really don't wanna talk about it. Like I said, that's true with, a lot of traumatic experiences.
T.J.:Well, to add variety to your rich life, somehow, I had to jot this one down. So extracurricular activities as a degree, the marines, service in Vietnam. And then you mentioned professional acting company.
Larry:Yeah. Okay. So I
T.J.:didn't know this about you. Tell me the about this part of your life.
Larry:Well, when I have always been involved in drama in high school and in college well, in in high school, it and this was my father took to Greenville Cumberbatch Community Church, Greenville, Tennessee in the middle of my senior year. I spent three and a half years at White Station in Memphis and then went to Greenville for 6 months and got my high school diploma from Greenville. But, anyway, I was in the senior I've been in 2 senior plays. 1 1 in White Station in Memphis and one in Greenville. When I got out of the marine corps, went back to Greenville, the girl who played opposite me in Pygmalion was in this professional acting company.
Larry:And she said, you ought to come up and audition because I was I dropped out of the ministry. I was kind of just floundering around. So I did went up, and it started out doing musical revues in the summer at a resort. It was in East Tennessee, then went to it was Old West Dinner Theatre in Kingsport and did that for about a year and did musicals mostly. Yeah.
Larry:Went in that yeah. I know. Right?
T.J.:I'm having trouble picturing this. That's all.
Larry:Oh, oh, gosh. I should show you a picture of me back in those days. You didn't have trouble with that one too. Where okay. Because of that experience, it makes it a little easier to get away from the manuscript and not stay behind a pulpit because I'm used to standing in front of people memorizing a script.
Larry:So, I mean, it wasn't foreign to me, but it's different when it's your material, and you're not memorizing somebody else's material because then it's very personal. And I tell them that, and I've started doing that a lot more often lately. I'm sharing my faith with you. You don't have to agree with me. Me.
Larry:I just want if if if nothing else just caused you to reevaluate your faith, but you believe, drive you to go back to the Bible and say, okay. Why did he say that? Do I really agree with it? Mhmm. And I said, I'm in I'm not infallible.
Larry:So Just respect what I say, and I'll respect how you receive it.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:But, yeah, professional acting company was fun.
T.J.:Well, kinda walk me through the transition from the professional acting company and how you revisited, the ministry again? Was it reentering school and then ministry, or was it kinda revisiting ministry and now I gotta go back to school?
Larry:Oh, no. It was go back to school. And it really when it went back, I was really thinking about being a social worker. I still wanted to be with people, helping people. And that really was a focus even though English was still I finally kinda focused on that as a major, but, I really still, like I said, it took me time to process everything and to feel God's grace and call and to give into that call.
Larry:And it was after I was back at school, as I said, through the influence of Bob Prosser, the pastor of some 2 or 3 of the professors there at Bethel, that I was able to not just hear, but to respond positively to the call to go into ministry. But even then at first, I wasn't sure exactly what type. I'd always been pastoral ministry, but then I started exploring other things before settling on the pastoral ministry. But then once I settled on that, I thought that's probably what I'd do forever.
T.J.:Mhmm. And and you did for a long time.
Larry:Well, deviated from it when I went to this seminary.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Larry:But that from West Nashville. Yeah. And the West Nashville Church went to Memphis Theological Seminary.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I graduated high school. You were still at West Nashville. You rejoiced.
T.J.:We got rid of them.
Larry:And then
T.J.:and then fast
Larry:forward that they know.
T.J.:Fast forward, 4 might have been 5 years. Then you were the president of Memphis Theological Seminary. I was a student.
Larry:Yeah. Amazing.
T.J.:How long were you there? I don't remember. There there was a lot of turnover. I don't mean this in a bad way, but there was a lot of turnover when I was a student both at Bethel and at Memphis Theological Seminary
Larry:in terms of, leadership. Yeah. I was there 4 years.
T.J.:Okay.
Larry:And then, after we there was an individual who was there for 1 year.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:And I've forgotten his name. Yeah. We wouldn't come a Presbyterian, and he tried to take us in a direction that the seminary didn't wanna go. And then move from that to the one I wanted to take the position after I left was the one who did take it after that, what I'm calling an interim presidency, with Jay, your heart, Brown.
T.J.:I came up, before, Bethel, now University, and then Memphis Theological Seminary. I think during my time in both of those institutions, they were going through some transition. And I want to say I had a different president every year or almost every year in in both of those institutions.
Larry:Goodness. That's terrible. That's well, that's not the easiest thing to do. Good to have continuity. It's
T.J.:No. No. It was probably, my, social and academic conduct.
Larry:Yeah. I understand both of those things. I have had a met familiarity with those things, as a matter of fact.
T.J.:Well, Larry, you were nominated by Presbytery of East Tennessee for the office of moderator of the general assembly. Why in the world did you say yes to the nomination?
Larry:Temporary insanity. That's interesting that Tom Campbell came up to me at the meeting of presbytery, and he said, can I place your name in nomination and for moderator general assembly? And I said, I guess. So I didn't have any warning, and I did question that after he did it because now being moderator, I've been nominated before.
T.J.:Oh, really? Okay.
Larry:And obviously wasn't elected, an elder was. Mhmm. And I was really excited that he was elected, really disappointed that I wasn't because I ain't losing. Nobody likes the blues. But he was the right person at that time.
Larry:I had no problem, but not being moderator of the general assembly. But it's a a really great honor to be moderator of the general assembly, but with that honor comes a great responsibility. Not just to moderate at one meeting, but to represent the church over the next 12 months. And I don't know if I'm the right person for the job or not and I'm hoping God will direct whoever needs to be in that position. Our church, as you were mentioning over the last several years, we are very fragile right now in a delicate position, and we need somebody who can help unify, hold us together to really promote the peace, unity, and purity of the church.
Larry:And I would like to think I'm that type of person, but maybe not. Maybe I'm not the person to do that. I can get animated, which I'm sure you know. I can get excited about certain things. But I don't know if this is a critical time in the history, But the Christian church and I did write Mike Sharp asked me to do this little meet the moderator thing for the current president of the magazine.
Larry:And in that, I explained what I thought was is the greatest enemy of the church, and I used Vietnam. And here's the illustration if you wanna hear it Sure. Before you read it in the common Presbyterian Magazine. When I was in Vietnam, I was with an artillery battle, and it was our job to assist, protect, and cover the troops in the field. Whenever they've encountered the enemy, they would call in their coordinates to us and then we would support them with supporting fire.
Larry:Now if they were off at all in what they sent to us, if we were off at all in what we did on our end, sometimes we didn't hit the enemy at all. Sometimes we hit our own troops. And it was there that I became familiar with the term friendly fire. And when we said someone was injured or killed by friendly fire, we were saying they weren't killed by enemy or hostile forces. They were being killed and wounded by that which was supposed to assist, protect, and cover them.
Larry:And what I think the greatest enemy of the Christian church today is friendly fire. And, okay, to use a concept, if the devil couldn't defeat the church from the outside in, he's decided he's gonna defeat the church from the inside out. Mhmm. And we are like that old wagon train headed out west that whenever they would encounter the enemy would circle the wagons and start shooting inwardly. And that's what we're doing.
Larry:And there are individuals, and we're watching denominations split over this. We are struggling with it in our denomination. And it's like that old cartoon Pogo saying, I've seen the enemy and it is us, that we are going to just if we're not careful, the we are our own worst enemy. We're if we're not able to work together in unity and harmony to come up with compromises that everybody can live with, we're gonna kill the church. And our denomination is too small and fragile to handle, that kind of attack.
Larry:And so I've and I worry about it because of that. And I think people have left the church because of I know people who have left the church because of it. And we while the United Methodist Church is the latest denomination that is split over and it's over, their emphasis on social justice, but also LGBTQ community, their stance on that. PCUSA has struggled with it too and others.
T.J.:In your mind, how can the role in the office of moderator, again, for relatively short period of time in a church history, 12 months, help navigate a denomination at every level through the turmoil, growth, seeking, searching, hardship, all the different things that we face both collectively and individually as Christians?
Larry:I remember an illustration in talking about conflict resolution. When individuals are at opposite ends on something, and they're disagreeing, that's like a fire. And you can either throw water on the fire, or you can throw gasoline on the fire. Are you going to try to be a calming influence in the midst of the struggle? Are you just going to ban the flame?
Larry:And that is the only way I know how we're going to deal with it. And it's and I've forgotten which book I was reading about the different levels of conflict, and there's, like, 7. And everything needs to be handled on level 1 where you have 2 parties trying to work together for a common solution. And we do this and I talk about this in like premarital counseling when couples are having trouble. Use the same image of where you have to come up with a compromise, which is what our denomination has now in terms of homosexuality.
Larry:It doesn't make either group happy. No. No. Nobody likes it, but it's the only thing that is holding our denomination together. Mhmm.
Larry:We say, yeah, the Bible says it it's a sin, but we still affirm the Presbyterian policy. We leave it up to congregations and prescriptors decide who will be ordained and who won't. And I think it's important to do level 1. What happens and I think what is happening and it does a great job, and I could find the book, but I'm not going to. You go through the different levels.
Larry:When you get to the highest level, you make the other person the enemy, and you dehumanize them, and in some cases, you demonize them. They are the devil themselves because they disagree with you. And then you stop trying to defend your position and you just wanna win no matter what the cost, and you'll do whatever it takes to win, and that's when everybody loses. So you've got to handle the conflict at the lowest possible level. Level 1, 2, or 3, don't let it get to 4, 5, 6, or 7.
Larry:That's when the church will be completely and totally destroyed. When we stop respecting the opinion of others, we're in trouble. And I respect those who disagree with me. My son-in-law is an ordained Baptist. He has a PhD in theology.
Larry:We don't agree on a lot of things. But when we talk about it, he respects my opinion. I respect his. I do not agree with his position on women in ministry or baptism. He doesn't agree with me, but he doesn't think I'm stupid for the devil.
Larry:He doesn't think the church will unravel because I believe what I believe. Mhmm. I don't think the church is going to unravel and fall apart because he believes what he believes. I think we'll survive just fine. And I think that is the opinion of some Moral fabric of our denomination will just fall apart if we don't believe like they believe, If we just don't adhere to certain things.
Larry:And now and I think when when I go to what I think is gonna unravel and kill the church, it goes back to, well, what I call the works of the flesh in Galatians 5 where sexual immorality is one of them, but it's enmity, party spirit, divisions, hatred. Those works of the flesh is what I think will destroy the church. That's what I fear is happening, in some cases.
T.J.:Alright. We've lived in the fragileness of the church. Let's talk about some of the Cumberland Presbyterian greatest gifts and you being a long time in service to the church and a long time member of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, you're able to have this vision and perspective of, you know, the the various decades of of because I think I think denominations and churches change over time, then personalities can change. Maybe not their mission, maybe not their understanding of god, but approaches can change. And so with this collective knowledge of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and the what do you think are some of the greatest gifts this denomination offers to the world?
Larry:Well, we we one that that has been from the beginning is the medium followed medium theology between Calvinism and Armenianism, I think is our greatest contribution. We don't work in order to be saved, but we work because we are saved. Works are important. Mhmm. And we have always been able to to be fluid, to be able to adapt, to change, to different areas in different different ways, and to appreciate the differences.
Larry:And this is really our denomination itself has become we're getting our greatest growth outside the United States. The mission field is where we are growing. They don't worship the same way we do over here. They don't feel the same way we do, but we respect their tradition and how they're handling it and their evangelistic zeal, and some of that really should rub off on us so we get a little bit better at that. And I think that is and and trying to incorporate that into, you know, our world view that we actually have a view that encompasses the world and not just the United States.
T.J.:Let's talk about books, music, movies, extracurricular activities, professional acting, plays, things of that nature that have over your lifetime spoken to you, to your faith, and to your ministry?
Larry:Well, in terms I've told you, John Maxwell, in terms of preaching style, but leadership. If you wanna find out about leadership, any book written by John Maxwell is a great book to read. But one of the books back in the eighties that I read that I think every minister should read is looking in the mirror by Lyles Schaller. It has a wonderful view of the different sizes of churches and the different leadership styles that are needed for those churches because they're different.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:And it's kind of important to know the difference. If you can pastor really if you're a wonderful small church pastor, you may not be a wonderful big church, large church
T.J.:Yeah.
Larry:Pastor. But if you are, how does it change administratively? And the other another one as far as the church is concerned is Rick Warren's, and this was back in the nineties, middle nineties. The Purpose Driven Church is a great book to read, to cause you to think. And I like Rick Warren.
Larry:I don't agree with him theologically on some things, but I like. I really like that book. Spirituality, the one and all of those individuals have had an impact on my life. And most of the impact comes from my reading. But spirituality and living the Christian life, John Ortberg, any book written by John Ortberg.
Larry:My favorite is The Life You've Always Wanted. It's, spiritual disciplines for ordinary people. One of the best first chapters of any book I've ever read. And it well, because I relate to it, and you'd have to read it and you'd understand what I mean by that. But I still use that.
Larry:I go back. I reread great sermon illustrations. You want some really good he's he's very readable. All of these individuals are very readable. Easy to do.
Larry:But in terms of movies, I'm I I don't have much of a social life. I don't I don't do much of of that almost well, in all of my reading is nonfiction. It it's really all related to my job, to my profession, and I enjoy that. Not that I think I would enjoy fiction. I've never really gotten into that.
T.J.:What is your, what's your favorite play? 1, to perform in, 2, to be in the audience?
Larry:Oh, great question. I I I I the one that we did in the professional acting company, we did guys and dolls. See, that this is dating me. I was Sky Masters. Yeah.
Larry:I really enjoyed that. West Side Story in high school, and they've redone that.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:Well, a couple of different times with themes on that. But now I don't go to like I said, I don't have much of a social life. I don't go to too many plays or movies.
T.J.:So you you liked, musicals?
Larry:Oh, I really do.
T.J.:K.
Larry:And that's kind of on my bucket list. Not be I I have no desire to be in musicals anymore or to age, really. I have no idea. But I love going through I do. Mhmm.
Larry:And someday, I'm gonna have time to just kinda do that and to sit back and enjoy it.
T.J.:Alright, Larry. One more question. We earlier talked about the gifts of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. What has been the greatest gift this denomination has given to you?
Larry:My parents. That is the greatest gift this denomination has given to me. And most people, a lot of people, maybe not most people, that is one of the greatest gifts your parents can give you is their faith. And it's something I hope that I passed along to to my children. Now we don't always agree, theologically, But it's just that that faith in in Christ and knowing that he's gonna be with you no matter what you're going through.
Larry:But yeah. That and the opportunity to serve and and primarily in churches. And I've been blessed by every church I've been in, and I have appreciated being able to share, and, I very much appreciate their willingness to hear what I have to share. But every one of them, I have learned a great deal from congregations, but individuals in congregations have had an impact on my life. Mhmm.
Larry:There are tremendous lay leaders in our churches that are having a ripple effect, and they're not even aware of the effect they're having on the lives of their pastor and the people around them. And that's not why they do what they do. They do it out of love for the Lord. And it's a wonderful gift to be able to receive that blessing from them. Oh, this is something every minister knows in thinking about that of how many times you will go to a hospital, and you're gonna minister to them, and they end up ministering to you Yeah.
Larry:And you come away far more blessed than
T.J.:Right.
Larry:You were able to touch their life.
T.J.:Yeah.
Larry:And I've had a lot of those moments.
T.J.:Me too.
Larry:Yeah. They're very special.
T.J.:I think also when from a minister's point of view, when you go you've been called to serve a church, a specific church, a local church. You think, oh, I'm gonna bring this. I'm gonna be able to do that. I'm gonna all these different things. But in reality, for me, in retrospect, in years back, it that's never been the case.
T.J.:It's always how much I actually received from the congregation and the community. Was way more than I ever brought to the table, way more than I was ever able to offer, the people that I was called to serve. They ended up giving me way way much more than I was ever able to give in terms of guidance, care, teaching, leadership. What wonderful people and a high toleration level of the places that I've been. Patient, tolerant, forgiving everywhere I've served.
Larry:Now that was a humbling thing about my first church out of seminary.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Larry:Was it was very humbling because I really didn't know what I was doing. I was clueless. I didn't had a lot of education, but I was, you know. Mhmm. And they with what you said is what made me think of that.
Larry:They were very patient and loving and kind and helping me through that entire process. And I'm very grateful, especially for that first church. I think the one I had in seminary at Bolivar was wonderful too. I think your first church is extremely important and has a powerful impact on your life and whether you stay in ministry or not. There are some mean churches out there.
Larry:There are some mean pastors out there. I was blessed with very loving churches, and I'm in one now. And I I feel blessed to be where I am and grateful for them.
T.J.:Well, maybe those mean churches and mean, mean pastors that you mentioned will find find each
Larry:other and and be able to do good
T.J.:stuff together, you know. You can't have there's only so much meanness you can have in one room. So
Larry:I don't I don't know. I hope that's true. Well, I keep praying that God will touch their hearts. Create of me a pure art, oh god, please. You know?
Larry:A plain alright.
T.J.:Well, there have been plenty of times that, folks have found me not at my best and have overlooked those. And, so I grant I attempt to grant that to all the folks that I encounter in my daily walk. And maybe I caught somebody when they were not at their best. And I have to keep that in mind.
Larry:That's an important thing.
T.J.:Larry, thank you for giving me part of your afternoon.
Larry:Well, thank you for inviting me to share. I appreciate it.
T.J.:It was good to reconnect. We have not connected like this since the 19 nineties.
Larry:Oh my.
T.J.:This is the longest conversation that we have had since the 19 nineties.
Larry:Yeah. It's a long time and a long conversation. Yeah.
T.J.:Well, I think the role the roles, they weren't different, but, it was a pastor speaking to a candidate in ministry. So, yeah, shame on you for encouraging me.
Larry:I know. What what was I thinking? Okay. I can get a few things right. I'll tell you though.
T.J.:Larry, thank you so much.
Larry:Oh, thank you. I appreciate it.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road. Please share this podcast with your family, your friends, your neighbors, your coworkers. In closing, I leave you with these words from John Maxwell in his book Developing the Leader Within You. We cannot choose how many years we live, but we can choose how much life those years will have. We cannot control the beauty of our face, but we can control the expression on it. We cannot control life's difficult moments, but we can choose to make life less difficult. We cannot control the negative atmosphere of the world, but we can control the atmosphere of our minds. Too often, we try to choose and control things we cannot. But too seldom, we choose to control what we can, our attitude. Thanks for listening.
