Lisa Oliver - Room At The Table
You're listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. This episode's guest grew up in a big family, and she tells me that it is in this environment that she discovered that there is room for everyone at the table. The table being a place where you are welcomed and received. Reverend Lisa Oliver shares her faith journey, and she begins at the kitchen table. It takes me on a journey with pathways of change and searching and transitions. Her journey has her serving at Mount Taber Cumberland Presbyterian Church and how her life experiences have informed and enriched both her faith and her ministry. Enjoy this faith conversation with Lisa Oliver.
T.J.:Lisa, did you grow up in a big family?
Lisa:Yes, I did. And by big, I mean, there were 6 children, both parents and in a tiny house, before there were tiny houses. So, a 2 bedroom house with 6 kids was a bit of a challenge. But my parents were creative and able to, figure out how to manage. And I am the second of 6 children, but the oldest girl.
T.J.:Wow. So it was a creative chaos in the house, I imagine.
Lisa:Yes. Probably not a lot different from, most families because families is chaotic. There's always something interesting happening, but there were just more of us to create chaos. So,
T.J.:so you learned you learned scheduling at a young age and sharing at a young age.
Lisa:Yes. Yes. There was a lot of sharing. I I distinctly remember, and it's a a funny Christmas story. Now when I was that age, it was not as funny.
Lisa:But, I have 2 sisters, and we were given each a Fisher Price baby doll that were just sweet things. And, being the oldest, sometimes you have to let the younger one have something that you might already have. So, I had a dark headed, baby doll with bangs that looked like me and also looked like my sister, Beth. And, she was probably 2a half or something. I mean, she was young, and that was what she wanted.
Lisa:She wanted the one that looked like her. And I got the blonde doll that didn't look like any of us, but it was a different doll. So we each had a different doll. So, I do remember sharing that doll, and I'm not bitter at all. I don't hold grudges, but I have remembered that forever.
Lisa:So it's just it's a funny story that, you know, you just have to make space for everybody. But that is something else I learned is making space for everyone. There was always room at the table for whoever came over. We always had friends over. A neighborhood buddy would come by, or they dad likes to tell a story that they would talk to each other and say, whose mom's got the best meal?
Lisa:You know? That's where they'd have dinner or whatever. So, so we made room for people, and, I think that was that was an important lesson too early.
T.J.:What did family time look like in the evening in the Oliver family?
Lisa:Well, we had a ritual of sitting down at dinner together. Mom made sure that, that we all sat at the table. We we helped set the table. We helped, sometimes we helped cook and do things. I I had others who were more interested in doing that.
Lisa:Like my oldest brother, he liked to cook and, I wasn't as interested in that, but I could wash dishes. I could always wash dishes. It wasn't my favorite thing to do, but I knew the job I could do the job. And that's what I did. It's a theme in my life now, so we'll get to that later.
Lisa:But, you know, setting the table, sitting around the table, telling our story, how our day went. Mom would say, Ray would go off to school and, come back telling his stories. And then just moments after that, I had all of my stories of where I had been to school, but I'd stay home all day. So she'd get she would get tickled at how and it probably happened successfully as the others, came along that we adopted and adapted our stories to match whatever big brothers or sister was doing. So, and dad would come in from work and bless his heart.
Lisa:We were just blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. This, you know, I don't know how he did it. Worn out and stressed from work and working downtown Nashville and, been riding the bus out to Hendersonville and coming home and, and mom would have had us all day long and she was how she did it, you know, she was just, she she was ready to say, I need some help here. And, but that was one of our rituals was to always eat dinner together. And, and that was, that was a significant, time.
Lisa:You know, we didn't always get along at the table, and, there was always discipline, but there was careful planning on who sat where. So Beth and Danny sat down by dad. The youngest sat by mom and and Ray was the oldest. And then Bill and I sat in the middle on either side, the 3 boys and the 3 girls on either side of this table. And so I was always helping with passing and bill, he was a pastor.
Lisa:We always help with passing.
T.J.:It was a divide and conquer maybe.
Lisa:It was absolutely was. Absolutely was. So, so you can imagine with all the, socks and underwear and the pants and shirts that had to be washed, there was laundry every day, just to try to keep up. And I don't know how many millions and millions of loads of clothes that were washed. But we we didn't have a lot, but we we were clean.
Lisa:Mama kept us clean and and fed.
T.J.:That's very good. Looking back as an adult, what's the greatest gift of being part of a big family?
Lisa:Not being alone. Yeah. That sense of family and connection to others who had similar experience and, you know, we can remember some things together and and enjoy, a lot of good memories, you know, running in the yard and playing. We we had games we could play, you know, then. But and I didn't know how special that was.
Lisa:And looking back, I'm like, wow. That was that was pretty special to learn how to play football. I learned how to play football. I learned how to play baseball and kickball and all those things in the big family because there were enough of us to do those things.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Lisa:And, and now when we are able to get together, we we get to laugh and share time together. And it's really, it's really pretty special to get to do that with a bunch of people.
T.J.:Yeah. There's something to be said for shared experiences. Yeah. Yeah. There's a bonding mechanism to that.
Lisa:It is. It is. And it it is how relationships, learning to build relationships in that. Learning how to get along with each other. Oh my gosh.
Lisa:Play nice. You know?
T.J.:Yeah. Toleration by necessity for sure. Yes.
Lisa:Yes. Yes. Learning to respect others' boundaries, you know, where where we're different. But we still love each other, you know, and able to do that. That that may be the greatest gift right there is, I'm not sure that any of us have done it well, but we at least were exposed in such a way that we had the opportunity to, to learn about what that was and, trial and error, you know, and then at the same time, still feel like we belong together.
T.J.:Right. Right. Yeah. Stretch those boundaries, but still live within them.
Lisa:Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, however our personalities develop from there, it just, you know, it's it's pretty amazing to look back and go, wow. Here we are and look at what everybody's doing now and how that how that might have been in the works even way back then. So
T.J.:Oh, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Did you grow up in a family that attended church?
Lisa:Yes. My, faith journey began at New Hope Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Lebanon, Tennessee. I live in Hendersonville. I've always gone to church outside of Hendersonville. I can't answer why, but, but new hope was my dad's, home church.
Lisa:And, so that's where, mom and dad were going to church and my grandparents were going to church, and it was a family affair. You know, I just told a fib because I did go to church in Hendersonville for a bit, when we, went to the Hendersonville Fellowship and tried to begin, that church, which is now a church. It is, all that sort of stuff. But, yes, grew up in the church and, spent Sundays, at my grandparents', you know, for Sunday dinner. And, again, some more of that, bonding experience, but also, learning boundaries and learning how to help and and, all that good stuff.
T.J.:Can you recall a meaningful experience, a meaningful encounter that you've had with God, in those growing up years?
Lisa:I don't know that I ever knew a time apart from God. So the Sunday school teachers made, learning about God a special joy. Billie Barnett was, a sweet, beautiful woman who took her time and had the nicest voice for little children. You know, she was just perfect for that. And I guess, probably the most profound time was when I went to church camp, at Crystal Springs.
Lisa:I learned how simple it was to accept salvation. And I've always made things so complicated in my head. You know? It was supposed to be hard. You know?
Lisa:No. Just receive the love of Christ and accept that he is your lord and savior. And, I was so terribly homesick that that week. I only went to camp as a camper 1 week out of my life.
T.J.:How old were you?
Lisa:I guess 12, 6th grade, somewhere around there. I wanna say that's when it was. And, so went to camp and learned about how what how grace is really so easy to receive, and later joined the church as a result, and accepted Jesus as Lord and savior. And that was very meaningful to me because I I guess I didn't know at the time that I I wasn't saved as we, you know, we were going to church. So whatnot.
Lisa:A member or whatnot. I I didn't understand what that was. So I felt a special closeness to God, and especially getting out away from home. And Crystal Springs has always been a beautiful place, and that was a beautiful place to learn how God loves us so much.
T.J.:It's interesting that coupled with home being homesick and your profession of faith was right there next to each other. I don't know what that means, but, you know, typically, you know, when we have changes in life, you know, it it and when we accept changes and transformation, it it can be in times when things are stable and familiar. And yet for you, you know, around 5th or 6th grade, 7th grade, it was being away from your family and your church family. That's interesting.
Lisa:Yeah. I didn't I hadn't made that connection, but that's that is very interesting. And it and I can honestly say I didn't do it out of fear. It was out of just, this is beautiful, and I wanna be a part of it. Yeah.
Lisa:And that's I guess I got a little bit of experience of being part of something bigger than my little church family and my family. My not so little family, but in my part of the world, you know, a smaller microcosm of the bigger world. So thank you for that.
T.J.:Sometimes, maybe, it's hearing the message of grace again, but in a different voice.
Lisa:Probably so.
T.J.:You know, maybe you heard it at church, around the kitchen table, out in the yard. But those were familiar voices, but maybe it was a different voice at camp. You could hear it differently.
Lisa:I think that's probably true in, establishing relationships with adults who who I didn't know at the time volunteered their time to be there because they wanted to be there. Mhmm. You know, it this is was important to them, and I was important to them.
T.J.:Isn't that amazing that, adults take a week vacation or more, and they spend it at camp during the hot summer with a bunch of kids. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's some there's a testament there for those who
Lisa:do that. Quite a testament there. Yes. Yes. And it's not the Holiday Inn spending time or, you know, Embassy Suites.
Lisa:It's
T.J.:Right.
Lisa:It's bunk beds and
T.J.:Right.
Lisa:Showers that were in another part of the building you know, part of the camp. You had to go to the shower house. That's not that's a really special thing for, adults to, to jump in and say, this is what I wanna do with these kids for a week.
T.J.:Well, when you were in high school, what was Lisa dreaming about in terms of her career?
Lisa:I think when I was a senior in high school, I really hadn't, I hadn't thought too much about what to do. I thought about being a teacher. Mom had been a teacher. And she said, really? Could you do something else?
Lisa:Because, you know, you don't make much money as a teacher. She didn't quite say it like that, but that was kinda I was like, oh, well, let me think about something else. And I didn't necessarily wanna be a banker. That's what dad did, and I I that didn't necessarily appeal to me. But I took an accounting class, and miss Stubblefield, bless her sweetheart, made it so interesting to me that I thought I could be a certified public account.
Lisa:I could learn how to be an account. Now, what most people wouldn't necessarily know about me, but, I kind of knew about me, was I not very good with money and math. Didn't seem to register with me. I don't know if we just live in such denial that, you know. But I think it's the teacher.
Lisa:I think she made accounting so understandable to me that I said, I can do this. This is something I can do. And there's actually a career with this. So I thought, okay, this is what I'll try. So I get to Ball State, graduate from high school, get to Ball State, and I take an accounting class on a college level with a different teacher.
Lisa:It was not miss Stubblefield. Maybe I would have done better if it was. And in 5 weeks, we covered everything that we had covered for a whole year in high school accounting. And that's when I knew I was in trouble. The next thing we covered, I didn't understand, and it was a struggle beyond measure at that point.
Lisa:It was in that moment that I knew I had to back up and punch and think along other lines. And what in the world would that be?
T.J.:Yeah. What were what were your options? What were you thinking?
Lisa:Thinking about much because I was really dumbfounded that I couldn't do accounting. But funny thing was, in high school, I had, for lack of a better word, a vision. I don't know if it would be qualify as a vision, but it seemed to be one for me. I had the image of me standing up at a pulpit preaching. I really thought that I was losing my mind slightly.
Lisa:I was concerned about my mental health, and I said, I will never tell anybody that. And also thought, wow. That's a funny trick to play on somebody who despises standing up in front of anybody to speak. It was not although sitting in a family and talking to people, there was a crowd already. It seems like I would have been comfortable with it, but I was not.
Lisa:I was not comfortable with anybody looking at me, talking to me, ex expecting me to present anything. And so I said, well, that's just a joke. So I set that aside and I didn't think anything about it until I couldn't do accounting. And it was funny how that image popped back up in my mind that I had buried and said, that's never coming out. And I then decided to take it a little bit more seriously.
Lisa:Although, still, I was like, I just don't know about this. And so as it turned out, when I finally, felt like I needed to say something about it, Dad was washing dishes, and I was drying. And we're standing in the, in the kitchen right in there and said, well, dad, what does it feel like to be tall? What is that about and how does that work? I sometimes wonder what did he think when that came out of my mouth.
Lisa:Not a conversation I think he expected to have. Mom was, she was ironing clothes in another room, and she heard this. And so I think everything just kind of went silent for a moment. And then words of wisdom came out. Well, it's probably not gonna feel like a burning bush experience.
Lisa:Probably not gonna be something special like that. It's probably not gonna be trumpets sounding and blaring and God saying, Lisa, this is what you need to do, or big lights or anything like that. I said, well, I would have preferred that. It would have been real clear then. Right?
Lisa:So we talked a little more and the more I think his description was, it could be more of a nagging sensation that you, know that God is speaking to you and trying to get your attention and you just keep wanting to say, no. I don't think so. That doesn't sound like me. Knock on another door. And, then I said, well, I think I need to take this seriously now because that is exactly what I had been experiencing.
Lisa:And so then I told him and mom about what I just shared, that, you know, this was going on. And, of course, I need a career now. So
T.J.:Well, I'm trying to, place myself in the kitchen of your home. And what an interesting way to have that conversation because you're facing the sink or maybe you're facing a wall or a window. And you can ask these hard, uncertain questions without looking in an eyeball. Yeah. And then your dad had a lot of wisdom to be able to try to articulate something that, maybe he'd never experienced.
T.J.:That's a good way to put it.
Lisa:I thought so. I thought it was it to be blindsided. I mean, it was came out of nowhere. I'm sure. Right.
Lisa:And like you said, we were, you know, he was facing a window outside, and I I was, you know, just kinda drawing dishes, you know.
T.J.:Yeah. You you dropped a a big life question on your dad. He just wanted to get done with the dishes and move on to something else.
Lisa:But he took his time and took that moment to explore what that was and never once questioned, well, but that would be silly. You couldn't do that. Never said anything of of that nature. Just said, Well, what do we do? You know?
Lisa:And when I talked to mom, she and as we came and sat together after that, I I don't remember exactly all that happened, but we we sat down and talked and said, but I just I don't feel like I could be a preacher. She said, there are so many things you could do. You don't have to be a preacher. But if God's calling you, this is what you gotta go. You know, you gotta Alright.
Lisa:You gotta follow her.
T.J.:Well, that that's funny. Don't become a teacher because you're taking on the vow of poverty, but it's okay for you to be a minister and take on a vow of poverty. I like that humor.
Lisa:Yeah. It's very ironic, isn't it? Yeah. Well, but, you know, if God calls you to be a a preacher, then there's nobody that can argue with that. Right?
Lisa:You sort of feel like, well, God did that.
T.J.:Well, how did you go from there? How did you explore your call to ministry?
Lisa:Well, the next step was then to share with our preacher, and it happened to be Alan Jones, and he was the minister at, New Hope at the time. And, he was a candidate for the ministry. He did not completed all his steps toward, ministry at the, toward ordination, but, had gotten back. He had a long story, but, so my story intersects in his story as a candidate. And bless his wonderful sweetheart.
Lisa:He, when we came to tell him about what I was experiencing, he just said, oh, yeah, I see it. I was like, you don't know me that well. How do you see that? You know? And he said, oh, yeah.
Lisa:I see it. And so he completely, supported me, of us 100% because it was a family experience. Mom and dad went with me, you know, when it was time to go to Presbyterian, mom and dad went with me to Presbyterian to be, one, I had to be examined by the, committee on ministry and they were fabulous. I know Steve Louder and Morgan Wallace were on that committee. There were others, but those are the ones that I can remember now.
Lisa:And they were 100% absolutely. You can see it. I was like, okay. There's nobody saying no, which I really I guess I expected that to happen. I didn't expect for the doors to be, so welcoming and open, each step along the way.
T.J.:That's funny. You wanted a little bit of resistance.
Lisa:That that's all I really needed. It was like, okay. He said he said, no. I'm probably gonna have to do something else.
T.J.:Well, how did that, you know, because that process takes a little while. How did that change your trajectory? Because you're enrolled at Vol State, and what did that look like?
Lisa:So at that point as a business major, I, had to, I didn't have to change majors, but I felt like I needed to change majors. And there wasn't anything to really change to at Ball State. So the next step was, well, what school? Where would I go next?
T.J.:Mhmm.
Lisa:Bethel was the first school I thought about. It worked out for me to get to go, to Bethel. And, so I could then become a religion major. And the reason I thought I needed to do that was I didn't think my, my knowledge of scripture was strong enough to get to get on into seminary. If I had it to do over, I probably would have done a different major and because there was so much duplication in the study.
Lisa:So, but I did religion major, Christian edging Christian education minor with the Devere Ramsey at, at Bethel, and that was a lovely, educational experience, and she was just fantastic. And actually, I hoped that I would be able to do Christian education, and do that kind of, kind of work as a Christian education director. Or even if I did pursue, ordination, which I wasn't clear at the time, that's where I was gonna, you know, be going, that maybe it would be an associate pastor kind of thing is is sort of where I felt like, okay. I could accept that. I could accept working there with children and youth.
Lisa:Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:So It didn't quite work out that way, though. Well, which was easier, the accounting classes or your undergraduate studies for religious and Christian education? What came easier for you?
Lisa:For Christian education and religious studies, I wasn't the best and brightest, but, those were the areas that I could excel in. I could, you know, do literature and read stuff and and write about it. A whole lot easier than I could figure out. What spreadsheet and how do I debit, a credit, or what what?
T.J.:Where in your educational path did you kind of settle into ministry of the word and the sacraments? Or was it after your educational path?
Lisa:It actually was afterward because well, let me take that back. One of the meetings with the committee on ministry, the chair of the committee, and I wish I could remember his name. But he, he gently and forcefully, or firmly said, you know, you're really gonna have to decide if you wanna be ordained or not because that sort of, impacts what we do here. You know? And I said, and think about that.
Lisa:You know, and it is the educational process of, well, I'm just kind of floating through this thing going, I can't believe this is what I'm doing. And everybody's like, you know, encouraging me to do it. And they see the gift to me, and I don't know what they see, but I'm just sort of going, okay. But he was able to say, this is a this is a pivotal moment where you you're gonna have to decide your your course. And I didn't see how I should go one way or the other, clearly.
Lisa:And so I said, well, I'll pursue ordination, just kind of matter of factly, because I wasn't getting any direction otherwise. So I said, okay. We'll try this. And that's sort of sort of how it went from there. And then that meant, okay.
Lisa:Well, I need to go on to seminary and, and pursue the educational requirements for ordination as set forth.
T.J.:Okay. So by the by the time you got to seminary then, you had discovered or sort of grown into that ministry for you is going to be possibly the pastorate, at least training wise.
Lisa:Yes. Training wise. And pastoral care was becoming a a theme for me. It moved from Christian education toward pastoral care. I was like, oh, I think I could do this.
T.J.:What is it about the pastoral care that resonates with you?
Lisa:The more one on one conversations with people. And while
T.J.:Kinda like we're doing now.
Lisa:A lot like it. Yeah. Yeah. I could see myself having those sorts of encounters with people. And just while I I may not know the answers, I was interested in helping people discover those answers.
Lisa:And, and it felt like there was a sense of empowering others to be their best self, to help them move through whatever, crisis or trauma that seemed to be, causing them pain or whatever. Seemed to be that it seemed to be a place of curiosity and interest for me at the time. So
T.J.:Yeah. I there's some there's a great privilege. It's pretty humbling to be able to walk alongside of somebody who is experiencing maybe a loss or just some tribulation and not having to do it alone and having someone else there as a guide and someone that you can lean on and throw questions at, throw anger at if necessary. I mean, it's really powerful to be able to to grieve and experience joy along with someone else.
Lisa:And you describe it well. It is an honor and a privilege to to walk alongside somebody or whatever their circumstances. Yes.
T.J.:One of the aspects of pastoral care, even today, there can be an emphasis on, well, that means chaplaincy. You know, pastorate chaplaincy, and now counseling. So were those options afforded to you? Were they available as you're kind of walking through seminary and studying, and you found this area of great interest that kind of matches your gifts. And they do, by the way, the times I've been around you.
T.J.:But again, we we've kinda had a theme here in terms of, a vocation and a career. So what was available to you? What what what were you experiencing? What options did you have at that time? Well,
Lisa:in the Cumberland Church, there were a few associate pastors, available as far as, positions in the church. And that was becoming a little more, I don't wanna say the word available, because I'm not sure they were available to me. Because the people coming out of seminary with me were being hired to do it, and they weren't it wasn't me. It were they were men. I don't know if that was just because or what I I don't I don't need to know what all that was, but I know I did talk to some folks about associate pastors, and
T.J.:they went,
Lisa:but it
T.J.:was terrific. Let's live here for just a minute. So as you're finishing up seminary, what is it like to be, you know, applying for positions and roles and seeing seeing them being filled, but they're not being filled by you. In terms of your call, you know, what was that like at that time?
Lisa:Well, that was a very, challenging place to be because I was like, well, now everybody has been so open and welcoming and encouraging, and I managed to, accomplish the goals. And I have, you know, reached, all of my credentials.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Lisa:And now what? Of course, that's when God's working overtime, trying to help you get where you need to go. Talk to you and try to help you. And so, you know, I went to one interview and I was not, prepared for it to be an interview because it was, we're just gonna talk. I had not understood that meant you need to be ready to be interviewed.
Lisa:So that was my naivete as a youngster and other probably other things. But, anyway, so I didn't make a very good impression on that run. And then the next one, I was prepared for an interview and, was told flat out we're not ready for a woman to be, I mean, one of the elders in the interview said it. We're not ready for a woman to be, in the pulpit for any reason. So I said, okay.
Lisa:This is not for me. Right?
T.J.:At least there was some transparency there.
Lisa:Honesty. You know? Yeah. I hope it's changed for him, but, you know, I don't know if it has. But, so, you know, reality is what it is.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Lisa:And I, had conversations with, folks who, the pastoral care, professor at the time was Kathy Reed, and she was able to, direct me to develop my pastoral identity and, develop my pastoral identity and, maybe make me a stronger candidate for whatever was next.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Lisa:And I said, that's more school, but okay. Here we go. So I pursued that and, had a she knew of an opening that developed and I could jump into a group and went through all the application process and they accepted me. And that was the next step, was CPE. And so, at that point, the Committee on Ministry of Mercy of Mercy Corps Presbyterian then, they said they felt like that was a call.
Lisa:It was I had all the other credentials and I was receiving some money for it. So, they ordained me. Alright. And, so
T.J.:Let's think about your relationship with God at this time. So you've been equipped with all these wonderful gifts. You've been trained. You're ready to be cut loose and share all these new ideas and techniques and methods to help people heal and come to know Christ and deepen their faith. And for the first time, there was some closures or the doors weren't quite as wide open, metaphorically speaking.
T.J.:How did that impact your faith?
Lisa:It caused me to trust deeper, because I really could not believe anything other than God had prepared me to do something. While I have no idea what that something is gonna be, and can't see past the end of my nose on some things, you know, I'm like, well, I don't see how this is gonna go good, god, but, okay. It really was a time to, to to trust deeper and to know that God had me and didn't bring me this far to just say, well, okay, it's over. It's been fun. That's not who God is.
Lisa:And so I learned more about how God opens the right doors at the right time, even if they're not all flying wide open, you know, talking to to friends, you know, about it and just praying with folks who were willing to say, we don't know what's gonna happen either, but we know God is is calling you to something. It's just a matter of of discerning what it is, which I, you know, I wasn't aware of what discerning was, you know, I don't guess I was as aware of it as I am now. That, you know, it's a process of, of opening up to God and being willing to go where God is leading and not being the one running ahead of God and saying, oh, I know where I gotta go. Right here. Right?
T.J.:That's a totally different posture, for sure. Yeah. It's a hard one too, especially if we have our own ideas and dreams.
Lisa:Being humble enough to pull back and say, okay. I don't see it. So show me where it is because it's it's not looking like what I thought it would look like.
T.J.:Where were you and when was that moment when you actually felt fulfilled in your call in ministry the first time?
Lisa:In a hospital setting. And on more than one occasion, I was able to establish relationships with, nurses and staff at the hospital and began to look at who I am as a pastor, you know, as a person of of clergy material. It's a weird thing to say. But I began to see myself as someone who was a caregiver, who could join in on this team of folks. And it wasn't just me.
Lisa:It was all of us working together, and they did their part. They could do the physical. They could do the, assessing of the needs from all different angles, and they wanted me to come in. And a lot of times, they wanted me to talk to them and get things straightened out, but my job was not to talk. My job was to listen.
Lisa:And so I was the listener, and I would come in and I would find out about him and have a conversation. And in those moments that I felt, I felt God using me to help this person. It was an incredible joy to go, wow, this is, this is what I get to do. Mhmm. This is what you want me to do.
Lisa:And as I got affirmation after affirmation that this and confirmation that I was gifted in these areas, it was a it was a longer process than the last 30 seconds that I described, but it was, it was pretty incredible, that I could be present with. And I've shared with you that I'm a free crier. So it was really surprising to me that in those moments that I would be with somebody, if I saw someone else cry, I usually would cry. But when I was there as chaplain, by the grace of God, I could be present without ugly crying with them all the time. There were times I did cry, but I was, I was shocked that I could be a calming presence while they were maybe doing their ugly crying that they needed to do.
T.J.:That's I'm not laughing that you're crying. I'm laughing at the phrase ugly crying. What what is ugly crying?
Lisa:You know, you can have the little sweet tears that run down and you can dab gently and get rid of them. The ugly cries when everything's running and you're just all the sinus everything that can run out of your sinuses runs out and you just can't catch it all because there's not enough Kleenex. That's ugly crying because you're just sobbing and and carrying on. It seems like you just can't get control of yourself. You lose that control, which, you know, we we struggle so much to need that control.
Lisa:So, yeah, that's that's ugly cry.
T.J.:Ugly crying. Alright. Just really letting it go.
Lisa:Yes. Yes. Yes. And it's very much therapeutic and needed and, you know
T.J.:Alright.
Lisa:We we sometimes only allow ourselves to do that. It's cathartically at movies. You know, you have to sit quietly somewhere by yourself and watch a movie that helps you to release all that and ugly cry because you won't go talk to somebody about what you need to talk about.
T.J.:You've spent a big part of your ministry as a hospice chaplain. What brings you or what brought you the greatest joy in being a hospice chaplain?
Lisa:You know, knowing I made a difference every day, that was probably my greatest joy. I made a difference in somebody's life, maybe more than one somebody's life, in a day's time. We couldn't fix anything. There weren't anything that could be fixed. We could make it more comfortable, but we knew the inevitable would happen.
Lisa:And so I I didn't ever see myself as a going to be a hospice chaplain, and it was, suggested to me after, I got through with CPE that I should look into hospice. And I refused to do that for a while and had a dream while I was in Memphis that I would eventually open my own daycare and care for children because, you know, that seemed more like what I was interested in doing and that sort of thing. And, unfortunately, there were several deaths, in, the childcare industry where people would were leaving children on buses or whatever. And I said, we could do better than this, and maybe I can do better than that. And I, moved back home from Memphis and went to work at a day care.
Lisa:And god said, yeah. You can do that. Sure. Go ahead. And I did for a little bit and talked 2 year olds, during that time and, in whatever other group that I they needed me to help with.
Lisa:And I learned that I had to say no too many 1,000 times a day, and I had to change too many diapers too many 1,000 times a day. So I said, I'm not sure my gifts are really here. I don't know what I'm doing here, Lord. And, of course, God said, I know. So in the meantime, a physician at a hospice became available and I had a, incredible experience sitting at the table with my dad, talking about our financial situation was not, get being met, and we were struggling with lots of things.
Lisa:And I said, lord, I know this you got something else for me to do, but I don't know how you're gonna fix all this, but we need you to fix it, please. Within moments of that prayer where we prayed about everything under the sun, within moments, I had a call from a friend. And back when we had answering machines that would answer, it would pick up on the second ring if it had a message. Mhmm. I had one of those.
Lisa:And I I heard it ring, and it rang twice. And I said, I have a message? Well, I was very obsessive about checking my messages to make sure I didn't miss something. And that's that's a whole another mental health issue. But, anyway, just would say that to say, I would have checked that normally.
Lisa:But on that particular day, I didn't check my messages. I was in this conversation with God, and apparently that was more important. And I was thankful for that. So I went to answer the, the call, literally, and listened, and it was my buddy, Joel, who was working at a hospice company. He he knew I was looking for a job.
Lisa:And he said, we have an opening. You need to call me now. I've been trying to reach you all day. I went, what? So he had left me a message earlier in the day.
Lisa:I had not gotten it and or wasn't supposed to get it apparently. And, so I called and, he gave me the info. I called the next day and arranged for an interview and arranged at, the day care to be gone for that period of time and ran in the next day and did the interview. And I we talked for 2 hours in that interview. That only felt like a few minutes.
Lisa:I never have I had an interview like that. And it was just the perfect setting. The you know, I was the person they were looking for. They were the people I needed, and I finally understood hospice was about transition. And I had been working with children and parents in transitions.
Lisa:And that's how God used that experience to help me get ready to go to the next day. So, wow. It also helped that, oh, there was a TV show. Goodness. Angels.
Lisa:Roma Downey Junior or Roma Downey, surname. Anyway
T.J.:Was it touched by an angel?
Lisa:Touched by an angel. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yes. Touched by an angel was it.
Lisa:That was, big at that time and was very much a very special show that I enjoyed. And it also helped me to visualize transitions. You know, whatever you believe about what actually happens. It was meaningful to me because I was like, oh, okay. And so I went into hospice ministry understanding better that it is a transition.
Lisa:And then I learned that it is also very holy. It is a very holy time, much like birthing is holy. Also, this transition from the physical life that we understand into eternal life that we don't understand, that is a mystery to us. And wow, I could be there to help make it more comfortable and less painful and hopefully engage in some holy and sacred ritual or experience that made it better through prayer, through presence, and even sacrament.
T.J.:How long have you been a hospice chaplain?
Lisa:A cumulative of 12 and a half years.
T.J.:Okay.
Lisa:If not consecutively, but cumulatively.
T.J.:Good. I have some questions for you. Good. As a hospice chaplain, how do you divide your attention among the individual, the family, and even the, well, the caregivers, even the professional caregivers? How do you read the room?
Lisa:Usually, the person is addressed that we address the physical with the person, the patient. We gotta make sure they're not hurting too bad to be able to be either present or relaxed and resting. And then the caregiver is is would be the next person, whoever is, listed as the primary caregiver. And then you then you learn who is in relationship to this patient and how.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Lisa:And so it depends on how many people in the room. And then then after that would be the the nursing staff at a different point in time. We would spend time together debriefing what had happened. Sometimes in the team meeting, we would do that, and sometimes, maybe stand outside, you know, at the car getting ready to leave. We'd talk a few minutes and and share it.
Lisa:So it was something like that. That's kind of the general formula.
T.J.:When you were a hospice chaplain, what did it teach you? What did it tell you about life and death?
Lisa:Life is so fragile. And if I didn't get anything else, it is much shorter than we than we really realize. We take for granted. Oh, well, I'm just gonna live until whenever. And then, you know, in our eighties or nineties is when we expect to be heading, toward our heavenly home.
Lisa:And then we would have, young patients who had severe disease that would cause them to, have a limited lifespan. And I hope I learned how to appreciate the little things in life a little more. I want to say taking care of myself is probably the area that I struggle with the most is providing myself the self care that I need. And I would see these patients who worked hard and did everything they were supposed to do right, and, they would still get a disease that was so horrific. So, I don't know that I would take from that that you don't take care of yourself, but we really, yeah, we really should.
T.J.:Yeah. I didn't think that was a message you were trying to convey. Right. Don't worry about it. Okay.
Lisa:But, but, yeah, the the little things in life and take time to do the things you really wanna do. You know, we laugh about having a bucket list. There's nothing funny about that at all. You know, do the things on your bucket list, if you if it's at all possible to do. Mhmm.
Lisa:It is not a dress rehearsal. And, you know, this is our one life to live.
T.J.:What about death?
Lisa:Not scared of it like I was at one time. I think I was scared because I thought there were I thought death was the worst thing that could happen, and that was just my limited view. And then when I saw how disease robs people of their mobility or robs people of their ability to think, and be the person they, they once were. I knew there were worse things than death. And so while I'm not scared of those diseases, I know that death is not a scary place.
Lisa:1, because I'm I'm assured of where I'm going, and I feel good about that. So there's that reality. But just the the whole thing of death being scary, it's it's not scary to me.
T.J.:A hospice chaplain, I've, I don't know how to, well, I won't share my feelings of the term, but you have a caseload. So how how do you prepare yourself as you go from visit to visit, from individual to individual? Because I would imagine that some of those visits could be very mentally and spiritually draining. And yet, you have to bring your best
Lisa:Right.
T.J.:And bring grace and the good news to the very next visit. How did you do that?
Lisa:I am not sure. I think it's like anything else. You you take it, as it comes the best way you can. And each situation was going to impact you differently. I believe if I knew each one of these individuals and families personally before I met them, before we were at this place in hospice, I think it would have taken a a greater toll on me.
Lisa:But to come in as a stranger and to just walk into what I already knew was the situation, we didn't know them when they were struggling to get the disease or get the diagnosis they needed in order to get the help that they needed in order and then end up in this place. So all of that had taken place, And we just walk in, in this last moment and said, we're here to help. And so, by the grace of God, using your gifts, when you work in your gift, it doesn't feel like work. It feels like you're just showing up and God is doing the work. And then you, you know, walk away.
Lisa:Yes. You are impacted. And yes. You go eat a donut sometimes. Yes.
Lisa:You go have milkshake. Or you sit with your coworkers and you grieve together that, you know, this was especially hard or this was this impacted me because I had somebody like that in my life. Or, you know, I I remember some very special patients that I still hear some of their favorite songs, and I think of them. And it just, you know, I would go and sing hymns a lot of times. And one of my very special patients, she said it sound when you sing it, I hear little bells.
Lisa:It feels like little bells ringing. And I was like, oh, that's the sweetest thing. So I still remember that, and I bring that with me. And, and she still her smile just still, you know, is emblazoned, and I I'm gonna look forward to seeing her again one day. You know, we're gonna we're gonna sing together, and we're and she's gonna be able to sing because she said she couldn't, and now she's gonna be able to sing and, you know, special things like that.
Lisa:I I think those moments help us get through those others that are so gut wrenching and heartbreaking and special, special people that I worked with. Oh my gosh. They were so wonderful, and we could we could share and pray together and debrief and pick up our bootstraps and go again.
T.J.:What kept you from becoming desensitized to sickness, transition, and death and loss. If you see it every day, I would imagine that it could potentially have less of an impact. And, you know, for mental health, I think you would need to chew on it in little pieces at a time, so you're not overwhelmed. But on the other extreme, how do you prevent from becoming desensitized?
Lisa:Well, without really good boundaries, without a little bit of therapy, without all of those things in place and accountability with your your team, you certainly can become desensitized. And I can't say that at those last those last months, when I was working in hospice, that I wasn't desensitized. I wished I could say. But it had become it was my sign that I needed to move on. It was time to do something else.
Lisa:Okay. And but we do have to pay attention to that. It is a I don't think 12 years is the norm for folks, in hospice. When I first entered hospice at work, they were saying that 2 years was the normal lifespan of a hospice worker in hospice. And, so to go 12 years, even though it wasn't consecutive, was pretty, pretty big.
Lisa:So
T.J.:You serve the Mount Tabor Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Middle Tennessee. So how has all your life experiences and your education and your previous vocations informed your ministry at Mount Tabor?
Lisa:Everything I have done, God has used in this work in at Mount Tabor.
T.J.:Even changing diapers.
Lisa:Even well, I haven't had to change diapers, but I can if I need to. I don't
T.J.:know why that one came to my head. I think I think our conversation got a little heavy. And so this was a way for me to lighten it up momentarily.
Lisa:Comedy is a great thing. I love it. Laughter is a great medicine. That's another thing. You know, we we need laughter.
Lisa:Mhmm. I I really have felt strongly that none of my life experience and, work history going and doing all kinds of different things, trying to, you know, make a living, and education. None of it has gone to waste, that it has shaped me and prepared me for this moment in my life to be ready to do this. I can't say how each thing plugs in as it does, but I I I wondered about, several years ago that, oh my gosh. I'm just spinning my wheels.
Lisa:I'm going so many different directions. I don't feel like I'm really doing all that God means for me to do. And and what about all these different side roads that I've been on? And it has dovetailed until all that I have done. And some of it has been great for sermon preparation to tell stories, you know, Because I think I could write a book.
Lisa:I just don't want to right now. From the experience as well, I'm putting those into, sermons because God will say, well, look, you can bring this here. It bears on that. And that has been such of the many joys of serving Mount Tabor Church. That has also been a joy to see how God says, you know, it was it wasn't for nothing.
Lisa:You you're doing this. And and here you are now that you finally agreed to go preach. Now and you've tried everything else and I've said go ahead try it. God has brought it together and said here, you can use this here. This can be, it's, it was a blessing then, and it's a blessing now.
Lisa:So
T.J.:Lisa, where do you see or experience God's presence today, this morning, before we even got online?
Lisa:Well, God is so busy in my life right now, that I am trying to quantify something that has just been so amazing lately. I have gotten to hold newborns recently, 2 or 3 all in the same week, you know, 2 or 3 times in the same week. And I said, oh my goodness. When has that happened? What a joy that is.
Lisa:I'm experiencing a lot of joy and amazing blessings that if you can only say and know that God was moving certain things to happen the way they are. Let me back up just a little bit and tell about some hard times. Losing mom this last year, in July was except exceptionally hard, as you might imagine. Mhmm. We have, always supported and been, amazed at what Sacred Sparks is doing with Lisa Cook and the things that they are accomplishing.
Lisa:And they recently, and when I say recently, in July, it felt like recently, had partnered with Saint Luke Cumberland Presbyterian Church to move their laundry ministry into the church and serve in the church. Well, mom was very, very proud of that move and that connection. And, I think I mentioned earlier, she washed a lot of clothes with all of us. And so what we wanted to do to honor her was to, ask for donations to be made to loads of love in her memory. And, because she ever watched so many, loads of love of her own.
Lisa:And and so we wanted that in lieu of flowers. Those flowers are just so gorgeous, but they're short lived. And, we'd love flowers, but we knew this would be have a more lasting impact in a a beautiful way to share, love. So we we received or they received several donations, for her. And, Lisa asked me what were her favorite foods?
Lisa:Because we wanna we wanna share some of her favorite foods, for the 3 weeks that they had gotten donations to cover. And so we talked about those, and then I said, well, Lisa, dad and I would like to come volunteer, and help during those three weeks. You know? And, she said, oh, that'd be lovely. Just come on down and you can help.
Lisa:And so we did, and we hadn't stopped. But we're still doing this. Dad found an awesome way to spend some of his time sharing with folks who, need a hand up and need a meal. And, he goes and he pours the tea and gets the ice ready for the cups and all that good stuff. And I go down and I wash dishes.
Lisa:I do a lot of dishwashing. I was prepared for this early in life. So And we have so much joy getting to serve, and being helpers. We are helpers. And there is, there's blessing in that beyond words.
Lisa:It helps us to do helps us to have some hands on time in ministry, helping someone else do a bigger thing than what we could do on our own. And we have just had the best time doing that. And in that, I've gotten to hold newborns and see the light in other people as they receive a good meal and and honor my mom that way, remembering how she served all the meals that she served us and took care of us and didn't ask questions. It was just, this is what we do. And so I feel like I'm living some of that.
Lisa:And it has helped in the grief process, helped me heal in an ongoing process that is, you know, that I talked about for years years years, and now here I am living it in a way that I didn't didn't know I would have to this way.
T.J.:Yeah. In the way that you are, it's different when you were the one receiving care or in need of care.
Lisa:Yes. Yes. It is. And it's humbling, but it's also real. Mhmm.
Lisa:And, and I have been so touched by the outpouring of love that we have received. And, the random text messages that people would just send saying, I'm thinking about you. Oh my gosh. That helps so much. Cards, remembering special days, and that sort of thing.
Lisa:It's the kind of thing that I try to do, you know, with the folks, that I've known and through, friendships and all, but to to receive it is to go, wow. It really does help. Wow. Look. This is what it is.
Lisa:You know? So that's what it feels like.
T.J.:So you've been open and receptive to acts of love from others. Is it hard to open up?
Lisa:Get to a certain point where you have to, or you're not gonna be well. And, but it wasn't terribly hard. The hard part was losing mama and losing uncle Reed, and we just lost somebody else. But, you know, those were the hard things. The opening up and being receptive was just, thank you, God.
Lisa:Thank you for sending somebody to remind me. I love Beyond Words that that you got me, Lord, through this this community of faith, through friends that are fabulous human beings, and, such a wide variety of people that I'm connected to. And and then just being able to go and do the work. You know? Just let me just go and help somebody.
Lisa:You know?
T.J.:Lisa, you were born literally born into the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Yeah. Grew up in it. Received a call to ministry in it. Let's look to the future.
T.J.:What what hopes do you have for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church? Where would you like? Where do you see it going?
Lisa:I have been so encouraged lately. You know, we all have to wear 15 different hats.
T.J.:Yeah.
Lisa:I would what I would like to see is that there would be enough people in the Cumberland Church that you and I wouldn't have to wear 15 different hats. And then all of our, colleagues and all, we could we could share in the work that is required to have a denomination and keep it going, that we could, have multiple, friends and layers of folks that were working and doing this work. I hope it's going that direction. I hope we can pivot from maybe where we are to a, a broader group of folks in the church. So and the way I've been encouraged was working in the Cumberland Presbyterian Women's committee executive committee as the secretary.
Lisa:And I've been privileged to go to the Nolichucky region and also to the Forquidea region just in the last couple of weeks, and meet some phenomenal people. I was reunited with some folks and friends over in the West Tennessee area at Forkadeer. And then Nola Chuck Nola Chuck, excuse me, was this whole new group of folks. And, wow. Some lovely human beings who are doing some amazing work, and, I'm just excited that we're just we keep going, you know, that God just keeps using us.
Lisa:And, I'm growing personally. And I would love to see that that, that as we grow spiritually and personally and, you know, in these relationships that we might, expand numbers of violence. So
T.J.:Alright. Before we close this conversation out, I don't wanna skip over when we were communicating, you know, offline to be able to sort of coordinate this. You had mentioned a new hobby or gift or activity that you've picked up in, crochet crochet. So, tell me tell me how you ran into this new I don't is it an activity? Is it a hobby?
Lisa:I had always wanted to crochet, and I thought that I had to take a class to learn how to do it. You know, somebody's gonna teach me how to do this. So it was always on my mind. I need to take a class. I I never could find a time to take a class.
Lisa:Well, as a hospice chaplain, I had the opportunity to meet this woman who, at 96, though she had struggled with memory issues, she never forgot how to crochet. And she was crocheting and making scarves and doing all sorts of things like that, mostly scarves, but doing the regular thing, but she made blankets and things. And I thought, well, it was one of her three most important things. And so that was one of the things we would address on every visit is I would talk with her about crochet. And I thought, well, maybe she could teach me.
Lisa:And then I thought, well, maybe out to learn a few of the little basics so that when she was telling me about it, I wouldn't be going, now what is that? How does that work? And didn't have to ask a lot of questions. So I looked up a YouTube video and I looked at it and watched it. And and before I knew it, I was doing a little stitch here and there and I was making something and I said, oh my goodness.
Lisa:It didn't look real pretty at first, but, but I did it. And in a little bit, I would I'd made a granny square. And, like I said, the first one was not necessarily a square. But, you take the stitches out and you can go back and do them again. And I said, you know, this was becoming also therapeutic for me.
Lisa:And I said, this is nice. This is being still and letting god take care of me and fill my cup again and being able to look at something and try to replicate it and and do it with my hands and move that way. And after I spent this little bit of time working on that, I would have something to show for it, which there are times in life where you go, what have I done? What have I got to show for my life? Well, I probably, if I were to think about it, could write down a few things and say, I I have this to show for my life.
Lisa:But now I can say, I have this to show for my life, this blanket that, I made for my uncle. He and my dad, I've made little veteran type, honorary things to, you know, little if not really a flag, but flag resemblance of it, blankets. And he was uncle Reed was so proud of that flag or that flag that blanket that he put it on one of his beds, and he left the note with it that it was from me. And when he was struggling with his memory so much, he could go and look at that, and he knew that he was loved and that we honored his, work in the military. And so, I got to do you know, I've I found a place in me that I didn't know existed, that I could do this.
Lisa:I had the skill and actually came from my my grandmother who I didn't get to know. She passed away before I was born, but, mom said, oh, yeah. She used to crochet all the time. And she's mom said, I could chain, but I never could figure out how to crochet. So, so it was a neat connection there.
Lisa:And that was 5 years ago when I learned. So, you know, you can you can teach an older dog the new tricks.
T.J.:Well, it may just be another form of your giving. You you are a very giving person. So
Lisa:Oh, thank you.
T.J.:You're able to give something tangible, physically tangible as well beyond the pastoral care and the spiritual care and the faith guidance. Lisa, thank you very much for sharing your faith and in your life journey with me. We have been coordinating this conversation for probably about 2 years. I'm glad we were able to finally get together and for me to learn more about you.
Lisa:Well, thank you so much, TJ. This has been a special joy, and I've really enjoyed getting to just talk with you for a little while.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road. To hear more faith journeys like Lisa's, follow Cumberland Road on Apple Podcast and Spotify. To close this podcast, I'll read from poet and minister, Reverend Joyce Merritt, in her book Naked Before God, A Journey Into Light in Life. Joyce writes, once while working in the chaplaincy program that I needed to complete my seminary training, I complained about the constant state of transition in which my life seemed to move. There was a retired gentleman in our training group who was an experienced psychologist. I valued his wisdom and his life experience. So I asked him, when does his life transition stuff stop? And he responded honestly and wisely with copious peals of hearty laughter. I got the point. Thank you for listening.
