Cumberland Road

T.J.: 00:03

You were listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. The following is a faith conversation with Reverend Lucas Garcia, a Cumberland Presbyterian minister in the Atlanta, Georgia area. Lucas shares his journey of coming to the United States from Colombia as a child and the challenges of learning a new language and a new culture. Lucas brings both humor and humility to our conversation as he shares a complexity of ministry in an intercultural and intergenerational congregation that worships in both Spanish and English. I enjoy sitting with Lucas and getting to know him better, and I hope you enjoy this faith journey of Lucas Garcia.

T.J.: 01:09

Lucas, let's start with a deep question. What revelation about God have you recently discovered?

Lucas: 01:21

Well, I don't think it is a new discovery, but digging deeper, I guess. Uh-huh. I mean, read a book about the trinity and the triune God and just how scripture does this massive full revelation of the trinity of God. And it's been kinda blowing my mind and make me think so much. But the end of it or the end part of it is the fact that one thing I'm realizing is that I can think and reflect and pray as much as I want, but this doesn't quite make sense in my limited space in my brain.

Lucas: 02:00

You know? It's like this is such a marble mystery of God. Mhmm. This, you know, that we worship a triune God. There's 3 very much so coequal as the book states that, you know, entities in one being, and it's just my mind is just very much so.

Lucas: 02:20

Just wondering about that and just marbling at at the trinity. So it's been it's been very good. It's been good reflecting. It's been difficult reading because the author is big words. I guess they wanna sound smart.

Lucas: 02:33

But it's been good. It's been so good because I this is one of the points I think that a lot of Christians have difficulty truly answering correctly or or giving enough of an answer where people are like, okay. I can see that, you know. And I did it more not to protect my faith if you will, but just so I can know more about God.

T.J.: 02:51

Mhmm.

Lucas: 02:52

This season of my life at the moment, God has just been, like, prompting curiosity in my heart and my mind towards him. And so it's been good. So this this just just wrestling with that revelation and and and just learning things about it has been good.

T.J.: 03:07

Yeah. There for me, there's something exciting about exploring and, you know, turning the pages of the scriptures or theologians or just writers, for different perspectives, or deeper explanations. Or to see a writer or to have a conversation like we are and and hearing in somebody's voice or in the written word their own struggles of like, what does like for the trinity is a perfect example. Like, how can we one of the measuring points that I I use is we have an 8 year old in the house. How can I take this deep theological concept and be able to articulate it in such a way that an 8 year old is able to to to grasp it or or take it on their own and kind of grapple with it, and maybe even come up with a better phrase, better meaning, better understanding?

T.J.: 04:09

I think that's one of the challenges for people in ministry and in leadership and just Christians in general is, how do we describe our faith in a world that is very much about like tangible measurements?

Lucas: 04:26

Mhmm.

T.J.: 04:26

And and that's hard to do. It's difficult to do. But yet, for me, it's also exciting in those attempts even though I won't do it accurately.

Lucas: 04:40

Yeah. For sure. For sure. And it's something else I think that studying this type of of things does is the fact that it almost frees us from the constant trap to put people put us in. It's like, how can you define the faith?

Lucas: 04:53

Like, we have to have a perfect answer from my singular experience about this specific topic. And I'm like, I haven't looked that long ago. I haven't thought about this things that deep. But now I have the possibility of going into this wonderful thoughts of all this. People have come before me of faith.

Lucas: 05:12

You know, they have wrestled with this, and I get to now listen to their thoughts, listen to how they process these things, you know, and that frees me because I'm like, oh, I didn't think about it that way. I didn't even see that angle of perspective. So so diving into that realm has been is really good and very much nourishing for my soul. And it's helped me understand the fact that I am not the first person to wrestle with this or to dig into this, you know. Right.

Lucas: 05:36

And

T.J.: 05:36

you won't

Lucas: 05:37

be the last. Yeah. Probably not.

T.J.: 05:41

You're right. There's something freeing, and I'm trying to grow into this for articulating the faith and and deep theological concepts and ideas of moving away from the elevator pitch. You know, can you summarize this about your faith, you know, in one minute or less, you know, or just for the length of an elevator ride. Yeah. And relationships relationships with other humans and a relationship with God through Jesus Christ cannot be articulated in such simplistic fashion to where it it still retains its meaning and intimacy.

T.J.: 06:24

And, that's why we were talking off mic. I really enjoy these conversations, these these long format conversations to be able, 1, to get to know one another a bit better, but also to kind of give us this platform to be able to go, I don't have all the answers. I'm still trying to figure out. It is a journey. I use the word journey for a reason.

T.J.: 06:46

There's no place of arrival. And I like moving away from faith story to faith journey because stories have chapters, which is good. But stories come to an end, you know, have a conclusion. But in relationships, that's not necessarily so.

Lucas: 07:04

Mhmm. Yeah. And I think spaces like this also give us the opportunity to to say, okay. This is what I believe. Now can we break it down?

Lucas: 07:14

And we will lean into it and see.

T.J.: 07:16

Mhmm.

Lucas: 07:17

Well, is that true? Is it not? You know? It gives us more space to really dig into things. Yeah.

Lucas: 07:23

Because I I think we look as such a polarized society at the moment that we're trying to convince the other side. And then reality truth of the Christian faith, like you said, is a process that takes a life long to achieve, if you will. You know, you receive salvation and then you grow into it, then you begin to dive deep into the things of God. But then you begin to wrestle with them as a community or with other people of faith, you know. And hopefully, we get to see God in a better light and become better reflections of Christ through this interactions and through these conversations.

T.J.: 07:55

That's interesting. If we think about and I know everybody's faith journey is different. But for those who can recall a specific moment of encountering God, a, you know, the time for, professing one's faith or this is this is when God met me, this is when I experienced God's grace. That is a moment in time, but it's beginning And so it's this ongoing. It's not like it was just then and then it was over.

T.J.: 08:25

Like like something that we consume. I don't know. Like a bag of chips or an apple or something, you know. And it's no longer an apple after we're done eating it. And and so, yeah, there's that period of growth, ongoing growth and expiration, and you aren't the same person in that moment that you made a profession of faith or accepted Christ into your life, you're you're automatically different then and then you're different a week from then and then a year and then a decade and so on.

T.J.: 08:58

So it's it's it's, you know, we often think in those compartments, but really nothing else in our life operates in that way. And I don't know why we would consider having faith in God as something that we can, categorize and just go, okay, well here it is. It's in this cube. It's in this box. As much as we would like to do that, it's just not necessarily so.

Lucas: 09:31

Yeah. And I think that's why the scriptures, often use the the image of of us being fed by the scriptures. Because when you're fed is just to to produce growth and then something, you know, you don't feed a child and expect them to stay the same size. You know, you don't feed your dogs. Right.

Lucas: 09:47

You know? But yes. So I think it's almost like an uncovering of our eyes. Do you see the glory of God here? The longer we go on this journey, then the more fed than we are by the scriptures, hopefully, you know, the clearer we get to see God and the more we get to see of God.

Lucas: 10:02

And it's very interesting because the the wider our eyes become, the more change we become. We I don't think it is possible. I don't think it is possible for you to see the true and risen Christ and stay the same. It's it's an impossibility.

T.J.: 10:22

And you were referencing the book, on the trinity. Often, at least in the English, we like to use the illumination with to go along with the Holy Spirit. So, I mean, that implies, you know, that there are new revelations that something that was veiled or hidden or not understood or mysterious is is being illuminated, is being revealed. And I think that's fascinating, and it just kinda goes into what we've been talking about is there are new revelations. There are new if we're open and if we're on a journey, there will be growth.

T.J.: 11:07

There will be some setbacks too. But, I I just think it puts a new light on what faith is and what our relationship to God is is that it isn't stagnant, but it's ongoing and moving.

Lucas: 11:24

Yeah. Very much so.

T.J.: 11:27

Let's go back in time a little bit. And, Lucas, can you recall a, a first encounter or an early encounter of a relationship with God through Jesus Christ?

Lucas: 11:44

Well, I when when people usually ask me this question, I I I always preface things with the fact that I was I was born in what I call a cradle of grace. That means both of my parents were believers. Mhmm. They grew up in a family with strong Christian principles. We went to church.

Lucas: 12:01

We lived that church as you say. We didn't go to church, we lived that church. So, we got to go out every now and then, but primarily we were at church. Uh-huh. But I I I've always been, aware or I've always been surrounded by faith practices.

Lucas: 12:20

But it wasn't until I got into about 8 or 9 where I began to internalize things more. But I think that the moment where I got to see God the clearest was when we came to this country for the first time, I was 11 years old. My mother left a few months prior to us to come in or a year and a half before us to come get a job and set up things, you know, because my dad at the time had a good job, so he had to keep that until we could make the transition and things like that. Mhmm. And I remember just feeling a bit of anxiety of having to leave everything that we have known to go to this new place.

Lucas: 12:57

But I remember from the plane coming over just being really aware of the sovereignty of God over my life. That this transition was happening for a reason. This transition was happening because he had ordained it for some purpose, some great purpose that I could understand in that moment. I was very much so at peace at 11 years old. Like, you know, it's like, yeah, this is very new, exciting, nervous, but somehow it's it's okay.

Lucas: 13:25

And he wasn't till much later in life. Like, 15 years later now or I'm 36 now, so a lot a lot more years later. Yeah. 25 years later, you know, I'm looking back and I can see how that specific moment in my early childhood was very much so God was there and he cared for me in such a way that now looking back and see this is the reason I was called. Because now I pastor a multicultural church where I need to be both English speaking and Hispanic.

Lucas: 13:58

I Need to function in both of them in in such a degree necessary, you know. So I can remember that that that journey coming over, and he was, like I said, he was he was very nerve breaking at times. But the biggest thing that I can remember feeling is just a peace that what was happening was God was the one moving things. It wasn't it wasn't us, because also so I'm Colombian. And Colombians are not necessarily disliked by Americans, but back in the day, because of the drug wars in our country, we were very much so stereotyped.

Lucas: 14:34

Like, anybody coming from all this, this is happening, you know, so we don't want any of them. And I remember my parents always saying, you know, you know, specifically my dad. Well, you guys applied for the visa because, you know, they're gonna deny us anyway because we're Colombian because of this, you know, and now we have our family of 5. They put the one more migrants at that time. This was back in 2,000, 1999, 2000.

Lucas: 14:54

So my dad was very much like, it's not gonna happen. Whatever, you know, let's just go with it anyway because your mom's, you know, what, thinks we should do this and we've been praying about it and I feel like God is calling us. But it was very much on the side of like, I don't really wanna leave, you know? And I remember that we actually got our visas not only faster than expected, but we all got

T.J.: 15:16

them. Wow.

Lucas: 15:17

And my dad was like, what? And this is also actually another moment if you will, because I saw my dad's heart submit to God's will in that moment.

T.J.: 15:26

Mhmm.

Lucas: 15:26

Because he was very much, so I don't wanna leave. This is the country I grew up in. This is where my friend, my family are. And I don't wanna leave, but God has clearly opened the door, so I'm gonna be obedient. So that mark my part of my mind as a child to see my dad say, okay.

Lucas: 15:43

And he stepped away from it. He had known to come here. So both of those moments, I guess, are moments that I can think of where I saw God's hand in my life Yeah. And got to see and function through the life of my parents.

T.J.: 15:56

Yeah. And you were just old enough. You know, you're what 8 to to 11. So you're kind of you're at that age where you're sort of looking at your father as in this role model. How does he carry himself?

T.J.: 16:10

And your mother as well, but it's like, how does my dad handle when x happens? Mhmm. You know Yeah. Because it and to see humility in a grown adult and in the male, that must have been really impactful, especially the stress of any move. Whether you're moving within the same city, but in your case, you're moving that requires plane travel from Colombia to the United States.

T.J.: 16:38

I found it amazing, Lucas, that you found peace and a sense of serenity in a plain seat where many people are a little anxious, you know.

Lucas: 16:52

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because when I travel now, I I get really nervous and I think back, like, I wasn't this nervous the first time I flew a plane, so why I'm wishing that

T.J.: 17:04

you know? You have to capture that 11 year old Lucas again.

Lucas: 17:08

Yeah.

T.J.: 17:12

What a what a big change in your life, you know, early on because you are old enough, you've got friends, you have a routine, you have school, you've got, you know, places to walk, ride your bike, play sports, what, you know, whatever it is that you were doing. And then uplifting everything known to you to relocate to a place where everything is unknown.

Lucas: 17:34

Mhmm.

T.J.: 17:34

And, you know, we use the word faith in a religious context most of the time, But your parents took a tremendous leap of faith with 3 children to relocate and to leave jobs behind, leave family behind, leave friends behind. Yeah. How well did you looking back, how well do you think that you adapted and adjusted to such a big change?

Lucas: 18:00

Yeah. I I think, I don't know how it is for some other immigrant kids, But I know for me, it wasn't till many years later when I went back and kinda deal with it. As a child, you use adjust. I, you know, you go from one place to the other and you just begin to see what you can do and, self regulate as best you can. But it wasn't till, like, as I became an adult where I revisited some of those things.

Lucas: 18:25

And, one of those things that prompted that reflection time was the fact that, when I was 20, I wanna say 24 or so, I I found some old videos from over in Colombia. It was my last birthday that I had to be celebrated. It was my 10th birthday, 10th or 11th birthday, right before we left. And it was such a wonderful gift because it was, it was my birthday. And my grandmother prayed for me for my birthday.

Lucas: 18:53

I did not notice at the time, but that was the last time I was ever gonna see her because she passed away when I was 16. And watching that video, 2 things stuck out to me. Just the faith of my grandmother, the fact that she was praying over me and blessing me for my birthday was was a gift from God, that moment alone. But then the fact that I saw that child at 11, I realized I have no idea who that is. I I as an adult cannot, you know, think back.

Lucas: 19:20

How did I go from that to what I am now? Or who would I could be now if I were to bump them in the street now because I am such a different person.

T.J.: 19:28

Mhmm.

Lucas: 19:28

My my intellectual capacity or my my my the way my brain's wired now because the 2 languages and 2 cultures, you know, is so different that I couldn't, you know, comprehend how that kid became me in a lot of ways. So but, yeah, so reflecting on those things is just you you grew up a little quicker

T.J.: 19:47

Mhmm.

Lucas: 19:47

Just because you have to. I know that my particularly my older brother functions that translate for my parents a lot of time, but then became my role and we became more involved with the Presbyterian things like that because I was just more present in those things for whatever reason. But, yeah, you just, that happens. By the way, yeah, I I don't know if I fully have wrestle with all that, but just the the development just kinda happens organically. And then you do have to go back and check on yourself, though, because if you don't, you you could potentially become, and being bitter for some of those things that happened because it was very abrupt.

Lucas: 20:29

Yeah. Yeah. Arts change.

T.J.: 20:31

I think God has blessed us with the ability as we age to be able to be retrospective, go back in time, and kinda almost pull it off the shelf when we're ready and review different aspects of our life and reflect upon it, whether it's painful or full of happiness and joy and process it. Again, from memory, you know, we always drop off, you know, some things we're we're not able to recall as clearly. And I've always seen that as a gift, because when I when I do that, even if it's a painful thing, a little bit later on, there is a place of growth. Mhmm. It's like, okay, I needed to do that.

T.J.: 21:15

I needed to be able to go and go, I am not the same person. I'm not the same child or teenager or adult or whatever it may be. And in many ways, I'm glad I'm not. And then some other instances, I'm like, I need to capture that again. That that that kindness or or maybe even it's that that, curiosity of to to know more, you know, that maybe, you know, an experience in the past where it looked it looked silly, but really it was an act of bravery of just going out and exploring and checking that out.

T.J.: 21:51

Not only the environment, but I learned about myself as well. I don't know. I don't hear a lot of folks talking about what a gift that actually is, is to to look back in our life and reflect and and kind of live in joy and live in and even in regret, but being able to move on, so you're not stuck there.

Lucas: 22:15

Yeah. I think I think we we have society's done a great job of numbing us. Mhmm. And and I think we often also don't wanna look back because we've, in some way, shape, or form, feel God has been unjust towards us or forgotten us. Mhmm.

Lucas: 22:34

So I know for me personally, one of the practices that I intentionally make is that I ask the question, you know, where was God in this? And when I do that going back, I can see God's hand in in in so many places. Because my life is it is it is better. I do feel like I have a strong purpose here and a specific calling in my life. And it wouldn't have happened had that transition that happened when he did, you know, because I have the very I'm very fortunate to the fact that I'm able to speak English.

Lucas: 23:05

And now that but I'm able to think like an American at times. Mhmm. But I can also speak Spanish fairly well. And And I'm able to think, like, I explained anything. I get accused more of thinking like an American than I do at Columbia most of the time.

Lucas: 23:18

But I just it's the world I navigate primarily, you know? So, but all those things would have not happened had it not been for that specific moment. That's why I think that that sovereignty of God or that, you know, gotta orchestrate that specific moment so all of this could come afterwards. Yeah.

T.J.: 23:35

When your family relocated to the United States, was that a bonding period where you grew closer to your parents, to your brothers, to, your faith and the church community that surrounded you? Was there a period of rebellion, anger? What was that like for you, Lucas? Or was it all of those things depending on the year?

Lucas: 24:01

Yeah. Actually, so we we we came from a very strong church background. When we came here, actually, we we we had to rely on that previous years to carry us for a a period of time. Mhmm. Because for the first 3 years, if you will, it was difficult just to communicate with other people.

Lucas: 24:23

You know? My older brother learned English or the capability of communicating well enough and understanding well enough within 7 months. But my younger brother and I, it took us a year and a half to get to that level of comfort. My parents still seem to struggle every every now and then. So I don't know what's going on there.

Lucas: 24:41

But, but because of that, it used to took a long time to build community again. Mhmm. I know it wasn't until we were later in our teen years, you know, that we really found a church community if you will. So throughout that time, we really had to rely on the fact that we we had a strong community back home. So now our house or our home became that central point, and we had devotionals every night.

Lucas: 25:06

We prayed every night together as family, you know. We we used to fast together. It was like, you know. So we used to do all these things together. So we did grow closer.

Lucas: 25:18

Rebellion didn't happen really. We were relaxed kids. Yeah. And my younger brother and I have always been really close together. So our bonds did get stronger for a time because of the fact that we were just it was just us.

Lucas: 25:33

You know? But but yeah. So I would say, you know, we we actually coped there fairly well. And I think it is I attribute it to the fact that we had a strong faith. And we have had daily practical things or practices that we did that reaffirm that every single day.

Lucas: 25:54

You know? Not like we we went without reading the Bible or we didn't went without praying. It's funny because we, you know, we pray for every meal. We do our devotionals. We we we will pray before we go to sleep, you know, and we will sing random songs because none of us played instruments at a time.

Lucas: 26:11

So so yeah, so so our home kind of became our church for a bit until we were able to really be embraced by a community. There's a difference between going to church and being embraced by that church. There's 2 different things. And unfortunately, the church in the west has forgotten that. We've made church another to do in our list or, yeah, rather than, can I invest my life with these people, you know, and grow together?

Lucas: 26:40

So it took a while to get that have that again. Mhmm. But it drew us closer together.

T.J.: 26:45

Talk more on that. Talk about the differences between going to church and being embraced by the community of faith.

Lucas: 26:54

Yeah. So so I pastor in West Tennessee for 3 years when I was at Bethel. And when I went to MTS, I got to pastor a white church.

T.J.: 27:05

Mhmm.

Lucas: 27:05

Was I was the only 10 person in the building.

T.J.: 27:08

And it

Lucas: 27:08

was funny because I was the pulpit supply, if you will, and I was there for 3 years. Mhmm. And it was a great church in many ways. But one thing that became very apparent is that these individuals primarily gathered because it was something they did. But there was no real investment in each other's lives, you know.

Lucas: 27:31

Now that, but they only went to church Sunday morning for 45 minutes. And if I preach too long, they would let me know. So pastor, you won't pass an hour. You know? Yeah.

Lucas: 27:43

So and they will let me know. And and I I try not to be overly critical of this because, I just don't wanna be. I don't think, I don't know if it's my space just to to say those things, but one thing I will say is the fact that if I'm only investing 45 minutes in my community faith per week, I don't know how much growth can actually happen there.

T.J.: 28:06

Mhmm.

Lucas: 28:06

Not only in our faith, but in the ties that could potentially be made within the community. And I do not know how they function outside of church because I didn't see many of them until Sunday. You know? So so this kind of demonstrates they were just I have to go to church, and that's what I do. And that's that's it.

Lucas: 28:24

You know? On the other side, our church here in Georgia, which is a multicultural church, we go to church 3 days a week. And I'm a church with quite a few of the members on Wednesday from 7 until almost 9:30. That's Wednesdays only. Right?

Lucas: 28:42

Then every every month or every other month, we have vigils where we gather from 8 in the evening until anywhere between 12 to 2 in the morning, praying, singing together. You know, our church service on Sunday start at 10, and we go until 1 o'clock. You know? And then if we have cleaning, if we have cooking, if we have birthdays, I mean, it's funny because archers have been accused of being the church that just likes to eat because we have celebrations every other week, it seems. But I have grown up with this church and I've seen their kids of many members from the age of well, one was wasn't even born and now she is 14.

Lucas: 29:25

And the other ones, you know, when they got here, they were, I think, like, 9 or 10, and now they're in their twenties, you know. And I spend so much time with them every single day. So I invest my life. And it's crazy because now that I'm a pastor, and when I was younger, I used to, like, talk to them as, to the kids and be like, hey, you need to do this. You need to do this.

Lucas: 29:45

You need to do this. And I have parents now who come up to me and says, thank you so much for investing your time in my child. You know, he won't listen to me, but he will listen to you. But it takes saying what's necessary, whether it's good or not, you know, where you've been correction. So that's what I mean by investing, not just showing up on Sunday, say, Hey, how's it going?

Lucas: 30:05

And listen to a sermon and walk out the door. No. Hey. How's it going? Oh, that's terrible.

Lucas: 30:10

What can I do for you? Let's let's meet up this week. How about let's let's go ahead and meet up on Wednesday for breakfast or whatever. You know, let's get together because, like, I don't know about you, but my church members live within a 30 to 45 minute distance of me. That means I have the possibility of going to their house.

Lucas: 30:26

I have the possibility of meeting them somewhere and say, let's just talk. Like, I don't have to be, you know, no sooner to talk to you about this thing. I can just meet you somewhere. We can have a casual lunch, and I can really listen to your heart, listen to your mind, and allow me to truly invest in your life. You know?

Lucas: 30:43

And that's what church, in my opinion, should be. I think, we should be able to able to see people grow from what they were into who God wants them to be. And that is a privilege as a pastor, and I think that's what the church should be. But unfortunately, it's often not the case.

T.J.: 31:04

Yeah. There is a wide chasm between church attendance and being embraced and embracing the people that are around you. I would even add, Lucas, that the the aspect of you being in a leadership role in the church, kind of that the temptation to fall into the professional role. So you are the one making those connections when really each and every one of us within that church or that community have the responsibility of being connected to each other beyond the hour a week or 2 hours a week that we have like saved up, you know, to all meet on Sunday. Or if that's what we have to give or what we're willing to give Mhmm.

T.J.: 31:59

You know, an hour to 2 hours to half a day on a Sunday, Shouldn't that just be like overwhelmed with excitement? You know, anticipation before you even arrive, But, genuine excitement to be in the presence of other people, our loved ones, our acquaintances, our friends, family, and almost have a morning towards the end of it like, oh no, I have to return. Return back home or to work or to school or whatever it may be. It seems like ideally, here I am being an idealist, is that we would go through that big swing of emotions, excitement, anticipation, and then the studying of the word, the fellowship, and joining one another's company. And then the sadness towards the end of, like, oh, no.

T.J.: 32:44

Now we have to part. Mhmm. But we can do this all over again later in in the week.

Lucas: 32:49

Yeah. Yeah.

T.J.: 32:51

And I I don't think that can be trained. You know, I I think it you know, each individual has to to go through that path and that process on their own. You know, it's to preach it from a pulpit or a podium or maybe discussions like this can kinda help frame our minds to be able to do that. You know, that worship on a Wednesday or a Sunday really isn't at 10 or 11. Worship is earlier in the moment in the morning when you get up in in your preparation is actually an act of worship.

Lucas: 33:30

Yeah. Yeah. What what I was gonna say, I think, our individual culture clashes against the relational reality of God. Mhmm. And we as image bearers of God need to realize that when my individuality pushes everything out, then I'm failing in some way, shape, or form.

Lucas: 33:48

You know, I I dislike so much so much this cultural idea that, like, I'm 18 Now I'm independent. You know, you can't tell me what to do. And I'm like, wait a minute. How did you go from 2 minutes ago being dependent on your parents to not being fully dependent because you're 18 year old. Like, that that is not true.

Lucas: 34:10

You're always going to need a community. You're always gonna need others. You cannot find your reality or your true self within oneself without a group of people. You know?

T.J.: 34:21

Mhmm.

Lucas: 34:22

I, I I think it's it is it is a delusion that we teach our kids. And so delusion that we feed with the constant, like, oh, no. It's your money. You're this. You're that.

Lucas: 34:32

Like, no. You you and me just think about the fact that can I do my job all by myself, my company, or to remove everybody else? You know? Like, no. Do we have this interview by ourselves?

Lucas: 34:43

No. No. We cannot. You know, you need me and I need you Mhmm. To first things that happen.

Lucas: 34:47

So I think coming to the real understanding and the reality of the fact that we need one another and we were creative for one another. It it really brings out the the true nature of oneself, you know, and I also think this is very true. You know, I am blind to my own prejudice. I am blind to my own racism, if you will, you know, to my own things within me. But if you are looking at me, you're able to say, hey.

Lucas: 35:13

I see this and I see that and you said this and you did that. Is that biblically correct? And I can say, yeah, it is. And then think about it a little deeper, like, may maybe it's not. No.

Lucas: 35:26

I didn't I see that. Right? So we we definitely need one another, and that's something that I think the church is seeming to forget. That I can just listen to a podcast. I can listen to the songs I enjoy because that's my type of worship.

Lucas: 35:39

You know? I can listen to this pastor because it really feeds my needs, my wants, you know? It's crazy because healing really comes when I'm able to connect with someone else, and they can say, oh, I went through something similar. Can we can we can we walk through this together? You know, otherwise, we kind of when we're so into ourselves, we just continue to spiral into deeper and deeper holes of depression.

Lucas: 36:03

It seems, you know, we need someone else to pull us out of those things. And that only happens in community or only can happen. At least that's what I believe.

T.J.: 36:11

Yeah. And and I think it's human nature for us to be resistant to leave the familiar.

Lucas: 36:17

Mhmm.

T.J.: 36:17

And but if I have somebody like Lucas to be able to say, let's try this together, let's study the word together, let's eat at this restaurant together, whatever it may be, whether it's superficial or very deep. Then that, those fears or that anxiety, being scared is lessened because you're doing it with another person. And then you have a shared experience that you would never had if it was solo. And then I think, that also brings in, empathy being able to view the world through another pair of eyes that are different than mine. Mhmm.

T.J.: 37:01

And I can't do that if I'm by myself. The solitude is great. I we're not dismissing solitude.

Lucas: 37:09

No. No. By no means. By no means. But

T.J.: 37:11

yeah. I I'm I'm able I don't know if you're this way, Lucas. I'm able to self reflect better alone where Mhmm. Places where it's quiet or less distracted. Yeah.

T.J.: 37:24

So it's a both and.

Lucas: 37:26

Yeah. But there there's a difference between solitude and loneliness. You know?

T.J.: 37:29

And I

Lucas: 37:29

I I I believe most people function out of loneliness and not solitude. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because I I I become aware the older I get that superficial and deep God is in between all of that.

Lucas: 37:46

I think, you know, God is happy when we go out to the park and play games as much as he is when we go out and read scripture, you know, tell people about our faith or just live life together. Because all that we do ought to bring glory to God. Not that it can't sometimes can or sometimes it does, you know, should always everything we do should bring glory to God. That should be our default. Yeah.

T.J.: 38:12

Lucas, tell me about this call to ministry. Where did that begin, and and what path did that take you on?

Lucas: 38:23

It took me in a long path. It began as a child actually. It's it's funny. Yeah. When I became ordained or the day of my ordination at my church, when the priest came down, I gave a sermon and there's so many 4 things that I wanted to be my entire life.

Lucas: 38:38

You know, when you ask a child, what do you wanna be? You know, there's only 4 things that I've always said. I want to be a doctor. I want to be a chef. I want to be a comedian or I want to be a soccer player.

T.J.: 38:51

Okay.

Lucas: 38:52

I never said I wanted to be a pastor. There's only 4 things I always wanted to be, and there's only one thing I knew I would be, and that was a path. And it was interesting because, I love this for different professions. But then I realized to be a doctor, you have to read a lot and you have to, be able to write correctly and learn a bunch of stuff. And one thing that I will say when I became when I came to United States, it messed up my brain.

Lucas: 39:20

I don't know what you say, like, with words. You know, I was mixing it the 2 languages because my brain was going through the developmental period where you're learning verbs, nouns, and things like that. And my mind was like, which one's which and which sound goes with what? So so that kind of made it a little more difficult. And I didn't realize until I was older that, like, oh, this is kind of dyslexia, but not something somewhere in there.

Lucas: 39:42

I'm not sure what it is.

T.J.: 39:44

Well But

Lucas: 39:44

it took a long time for me to

T.J.: 39:45

Let let me defend you a bit too. So even the structure of a sentence differs between the two languages. You know, the placement of adjectives and verbs, where does the noun place. And then to make it even more interesting, No. But, There's commonalities, of course.

Lucas: 40:08

No. But,

T.J.: 40:09

there's common there's commonalities, of course. But Yeah. But it's different. And then think about what age you were during that time.

Lucas: 40:17

Yeah. So so because of because of that, it it just became very difficult. So I remember just always struggling in school with language arts specifically, which is a struggle to get through. So that one kinda threw medical school at the window because he was just too much of the time. Then to become a chef, I realized, like, you you have to spend a lot of time in the kitchen, which I didn't mind, but soccer kinda trumped everything.

Lucas: 40:40

And, and then life just happened when I came to this country. Jokes didn't translate the same. You know, comedy was a little different. So I still love telling jokes. I still love making fun of situation, things like that, but it wasn't quite the same.

Lucas: 40:55

I mean, I'm finding love to comedy. I've always been on the comedy, but I'm finding more now. And it's funny because I remember I can remember who the pastor was, but we went to Hispanic retreat for the denomination at Bethel College. And this pastor gave a sermon, and the man told so many jokes while preaching. I was having probably one of the best times I've had at church, because he was just like telling the truth of God, but then making comedic jokes.

Lucas: 41:21

And I was like, oh, is this allowed? Like, are we are we allowed to laugh? You know? But but even though that was good, it started to kinda trump everything. So I remember I just focused all my energy.

Lucas: 41:32

But I remember ever since I was a child, I remember just having dreams of writing down sermons, preaching truth of God. Like, thinking about how can I express this correctly? Like, what is this saying here? And how can I share it with someone and truly, you know, not only that, but I've always had this deep desire to love people well? Like one of my dreams growing up as well was I wanted to have a company, not because I wanted to make money, but I because I wanted to show my employees what it needs to be taken care of.

Lucas: 42:02

Mhmm. Like, how can I have a company in which you can have the best medical care? In which you can work 5 days a week and you can go home when your day is done and not have to worry about anything. You know? How can I provide you with proper meals and things like that?

Lucas: 42:16

Because I just want you to know that you're valued. And and that's always been there in my heart and my mind. So, like, the care for people has been an aspect of, like, that it just has always been there. And I remember when I as I grew up, I saw because my mother has been the pastor all all my life pretty much. I saw how people treated my mother, and I didn't like it.

Lucas: 42:37

I didn't like the fact that you invest you literally invest your life to someone else's life can be better, you know, and you try to bring the truth of the gospel and you say this and I try to live life with them, and they literally just treat you sometimes the worst they possibly can, and they'll say a better thanks to you. So because of that, which you didn't seem very appealing to me. You mean I get to invest my life and people don't want me there? What? No.

Lucas: 43:05

So because of that, I invest the most of my energy into sports. I was quite good at it too. So the only thing that didn't work for me is that I'm very short. So but other than that, I was actually quite good at it and enjoyed it tremendously. But it wasn't until later in life when I was 21 years old that I got to a point that I have to realize I have to make a choice because it's gonna cause me to leave the United States if I wanna continue pursuing soccer.

Lucas: 43:32

And that means I could be gone for 1 to 10 years. You know, that's just a long time to walk away from your family, from friends, from everything, you know. So I had a difficult conversation with God at that time. And I said this unfortunate words that, I don't know if I meant them or not, but I I I clearly said, God, I want your will for my life. If that is soccer, let it be.

Lucas: 43:58

If it's preaching, let it be. And then a few months later, in a soccer game, I take a hit to my right leg and I lose 30% of my ACL. Wow. I was unable to walk for almost a year. My my leg swelled up to twice the size.

Lucas: 44:15

My knee was it was just disgusting. I ended up having, like I said, lost 30% of my ACL. Had, deep bone bruising, so I couldn't put my knee together. Had lacerated ligaments, the ones that were gonna cross were cuts, in places. Unfortunately, nothing fully snapped.

Lucas: 44:32

It was just very very well damage apparently. Wow.

T.J.: 44:35

That's a long recovery. Were you was it from the ball or was it from No.

Lucas: 44:39

So I had I I I settled the ball with my left, and I was pivoting on my right leg. And the player decided I'll go get the ball through the knee. So my bottom of the knee went one way in the opposite way. Yeah. So it was it was really bad, really bad.

Lucas: 44:57

The doctor said he's gonna take about 8 months to be clinically healed and then possibly a year to come back from it. And the reason being I did not know this was not only that I got injured, but I kept my knee bent, which caused the muscles to atrophy. So when the physical therapy started, it was terrible because my tendons and my muscles were atrophy to such a degree that the leg didn't wanna fully extend. And when it did fully extend, the knee had deep bone bruising. So when it came together, it was like pin needles going into my knee caps.

Lucas: 45:27

So it was pain either way. Wow. So

T.J.: 45:29

I got the case up. You had to undo what you were naturally doing, a natural position before you could get to the real physical therapy. Yeah. So you had physical pre physical therapy for physical therapy.

Lucas: 45:41

Yeah. And it was it was it was the worst. Because I literally pay someone to push my knee down so it was straying back out again. And once it did, he was like needles going into my knee. He was just he was so much pain.

Lucas: 45:54

I remember being so mad at God. But then thinking back to that prayer, like, I guess I really have to mean that, you know. And I'm not saying God hurt me, but God was making a very clear to me. Like, this is what you promise. And do you did you actually mean it?

Lucas: 46:09

Because, I mean, I was able to come back to soccer. I'm I'm able to play now and things like that. But he was like, I was pretty much closing that door and saying, yeah. But it's not gonna there's not a reason I called before. So let's take all the other options so you don't have you came back out type of situation.

T.J.: 46:24

So yeah. Whether God did it or not, what you needed was a full stop. Yeah. Yeah. And you and you got a full stop physically.

Lucas: 46:35

Yeah. And we believe that, you know, God will use every situation for my good. Mhmm. And like I said, I don't I don't believe God's an orchestrator of of evil or pain in our lives, but it's pretty much so use it to bring about his purpose. And that's definitely a situation where I can see that.

Lucas: 46:50

So after that, I became very much committed to, what I believe was my actual calling in life, which is to master people's hearts, and to to lead a congregation to see and reflect the part of God more honestly and, you know, genuinely to everyone they meet. And since then, it took me a while to get back to school, but I was able to go back to Bethel. And I went to Bethel, and then I eventually went through MTS. And now I'm here pastoring the church where I

T.J.: 47:22

grew up. Did you, start your education at Bethel University?

Lucas: 47:27

No. I actually went to college like you were supposed to at 18, 19. I went to North Georgia College, which at the time was called Gainesville State College. Now it's North Georgia College. I went there for about a year or 2.

Lucas: 47:39

Didn't really study. All I did was play games and stop doing it because I realized I was wasting time and money. Yeah. So I went and worked for a time and then I went back to school. And it's funny because when I went to Bethel, I was just I was there for education.

Lucas: 47:54

Mhmm. So all I did was study. Yeah.

T.J.: 48:02

What was your family's reaction to, your calling into ministry?

Lucas: 48:10

It was it was, I guess, it was very positive.

T.J.: 48:13

Mhmm.

Lucas: 48:13

They they all seem like, yeah, that's what we were meant to do. You know, type of attitude. Yeah. They were they were my my parents were extremely happy. Yeah.

Lucas: 48:25

My siblings were just siblings, I guess. Mhmm. But no. But everything was it was good. It it seemed like because up to that point, I've done everything in the church that he possibly could do.

Lucas: 48:35

I work with kids, work with youth. I was I clean. I was an elder. I I I preach every now and then. I was a youth pastor.

Lucas: 48:45

I led worship for a number of years, you know, so everything is like you almost seem like it was the next step if you will. Like, because I I tried to do everything in the church except that one thing. Yeah. But, no. But it was it was very positive.

T.J.: 49:01

So after you graduated from Memphis Theological Seminary, you returned back to El Redeel, the church that you you essentially grew up in.

Lucas: 49:13

Mhmm.

T.J.: 49:14

Why that church? Why serve that church?

Lucas: 49:17

Yeah. So, the main reason I was actually higher is because our church is moving towards a multicultural setting. We've been a monoculture church for a number of years. But we have come to we realize that the fact that our demographic has changed so greatly, that is a need to function multi culturally. Mhmm.

Lucas: 49:40

Because of that, I was actually higher to not only engage the broad Hispanic population, which we do have, but also realize that a lot of those Hispanics are marrying Americans are marrying Asians, are you know? So there's a lot of interracial marriages happening within society. And how can we best meet those needs if we can only function in 1, specific culture? And because of that, the church thought it'd be not only necessary, but it almost seemed like God was moving us in this direction of the fact that we definitely have to engage all of the community, not just a small aspect of community. And this was not an easy choice because, I don't know how where you are, but, immigrant communities almost have to protect certain spaces.

Lucas: 50:24

Not because we think people are evil, but it's because when you go to your church, you wanna speak your language. You know? You wanna be able to be understood without having to translate. You wanna know that when you say something, someone's gonna be, oh, yeah. Yeah.

Lucas: 50:36

I understand that. You know, you don't have to give a long explanation of what you just said.

T.J.: 50:41

Right.

Lucas: 50:41

And that's how the the church has functioned for a number of years for a lot of people. So because of that, we were kinda hesitant like, should we do this, God? What what should we do? You know? So they decided, yeah, we need to move in this direction, but how can we do in that way that will be truly God honoring?

Lucas: 50:55

And we'll still try to keep those things, like, intact. That was so it's a very difficult task to juggle all these things together, you know. But yeah. That's the reason I came back, and that's the reason I I feel like felt like I was once again, going back to the original thing when I came, you know, it's kinda like the moment I was brought here for. Mhmm.

T.J.: 51:17

What was that feeling like to kinda have all of that come together? Purpose, education, calling, immediate future. I mean, everything is kind of coming together in one space and one time.

Lucas: 51:36

Yeah. I I I don't know how to honestly express something I can say is that I don't think many people can honestly say, like, this is exactly for the reason I was created for. Mhmm. And he almost felt like that for me. Like, in that moment, I thought everything in my life has happened for this specific moment and for for me to be this person moving forward, you know, into this space so I can function well.

Lucas: 52:01

No. It's it's it's amazing to see how God's hand has been through all of these things to lead me here so I can be able to engage a multiple because, I don't know how many people can do what I do and and function at that level. You know? Something I do on Sundays is that I I preach in 2 different languages, and and I just translate as I go. You know, my brain is not thinking about, like, how can I phrase this better, you know, or can I say this?

Lucas: 52:27

No. It just just happens. I don't have to like, I write up most of my notes in English, but then I I'm able to read in Spanish. I'm able to say things in, Spanish. And I do fail sometimes primarily because I function in English, but, I do a better job than most.

Lucas: 52:42

And once again, it's because of the way God ordained things. This is so funny because I have 2 brothers, 1 older and 1 younger, and neither one of them retained the level of Spanish that I did. Mhmm. And why is that? I I don't know.

Lucas: 52:55

Because we grew up in the same home. We had the same similar experiences, you know. For whatever reason, their brains didn't do that, and mine did. And once again, the thing is the the sovereignty of God in that because I don't know how else you explained that.

T.J.: 53:10

Yeah. What you described, not everybody has that ability and and to bounce back and forth quickly. I don't I don't know the mechanics behind it, like, if that's using 2 sides of the brain. I mean, I have no idea. I'm sure somebody out there does.

Lucas: 53:26

Mhmm.

T.J.: 53:26

But for our purposes, for our conversation, It seems like it's two sides of the brain because you're intertwining 2 worlds and yet keeping them separate. Worlds of language, worlds of culture, perspectives, and, man, it takes a creative, fast mind to be able to do that. And I'm one of those folks who'd be, well, let me go off here in a corner and ponder this for a while, ponder a response and and it doesn't work that way in in your setting, in your context.

Lucas: 54:00

Mhmm. Yeah. Well, but thanks be to God.

T.J.: 54:04

Yeah. Yeah. What are some of the joys? You talked about the challenges. But what are some of the joys of serving a congregation that is multicultural?

T.J.: 54:12

And and kinda unpack what multicultural looks like there at the church and maybe even more broadly speaking in the United States from your perspective? It's it's a phrase it's a phrase that gets thrown around a lot. So

Lucas: 54:27

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Yeah. I'm gonna do my best.

Lucas: 54:32

And when I usually speak, I speak in generalities. So I wanna be very careful with that because I'm not speaking to everybody specifically, like, this is how everybody's experiences this, you know. Mhmm. But broadly have I seen it, you know, multiculturalism means is when more than 1. So it could be 2 or however many, you know, because, for example, my sister-in-law, she's American, but her dad is Puerto Rican.

Lucas: 54:56

Her mom is Mexican, you know, and she grew up in Florida, so that's a whole different culture. You know. So you have all of these things just functioning in one person. Right?

T.J.: 55:05

And see, let let me interrupt you just for a minute. This is where the the comedian comes out. So for those who are listening, Lucas had a grin on his face as he said that. Wonderful people in Florida, you're wonderful, he says it with jest. Yeah.

T.J.: 55:24

I just wanted to give context.

Lucas: 55:27

Yeah. So so multiculturalism just means more than one culture present. That means more way more than one way to function, more one way to read someone. You know, for example, I think a clear example that I can use is, a white American, specifically, when they greet someone, whether it be male or female, they shake hands. Nice to meet you.

Lucas: 55:48

My name is whoever, you know. Mhmm. And that seem as very polite. Now, Hispanic culture, almost all of them, not all of them, but most will cover this, you know. When they see when a man meets another man, they shake hands and they'll do a half hug.

Lucas: 56:03

Say, how are you now? Depending on the level of closeness. Mhmm. And there's a second one. When the man meets a woman in Colombian culture specifically and some other ones may apply, they'll shake hands, but then they'll do a half hug and then they'll meet cheek to cheek and they'll do like an air kiss if you will.

Lucas: 56:20

Mhmm. And that is perfectly acceptable. Now I challenge anyone in that white setting to try to do that at your church next Sunday. You know, I remember doing that once with a close friend of mine, and he almost got step like, woah. Why are you guys so close to my wife?

Lucas: 56:35

I'm like, I'm just greeting her. Yeah. So then now think about this for a moment. Now that I said that, think about a child who's seen that at home every single day. Whoever said he goes to his grandmother's house, to his uncles, he sees his dad do that.

Lucas: 56:51

And now he goes to school and attempts to do that with his white friends. Mhmm. You know? Or almost anybody, I guess, who's not Hispanic. Are they gonna understand that they're not?

Lucas: 57:01

Mhmm. So that's where that extra culture comes in. Now that he has now this individual has to understand that when I go to this spaces, this cultural practice, which is perfectly okay with the Hispanic culture and in my family culture, is no longer okay in this separate culture.

T.J.: 57:14

Mhmm. So

Lucas: 57:15

that's that needs to be multicultural. It means that I have to be able to gauge the culture that I'm, engaging with because I have multiple different perspectives in my mind that I function with and it's perfectly okay, but it may not be okay somewhere else. Mhmm. So I guess it's a simple way to think about multiculturalism. The fact that I have different perspectives functioning in me at all times, but I have to gauge which one's necessary pretending of where I go.

Lucas: 57:40

You know? I think the second part of your question, what are some of the joys that I've seen?

T.J.: 57:43

Yeah. And let's let's speak specifically at El Radil. Yeah. Because you've been part of that congregation. Well, you grew up in it essentially.

T.J.: 57:52

Mhmm. Yeah. And so you've been able to witness it it changing, and its needs change and its ministry change.

Lucas: 57:59

Yeah. Yeah. So I I think one of the clearest one that I see often is the fact that when we now do bible studies and the fact that we now do our sermons in both languages, the 2nd generation or or first generation kids who have grown up here now actually seem to be capturing more of the scriptures. Mhmm. Because they were like, yeah.

Lucas: 58:22

When your mom preaches, you know, we understand mostly what she says, but her Spanish is so high that I have no idea sometimes what she has said.

T.J.: 58:30

Mhmm.

Lucas: 58:30

But now that we have translation, I'm able to engage better with the sermon. I'm able to engage better with the text now on Wednesday nights when we do bible study. And not only that, but they're able to ask questions from their perspective, you know, which is so much different because often what happens is when you have a difficult time communicating with someone, you know, you frustration gets in and then no one really knows what's happening. You know? Yeah.

Lucas: 58:55

But something that's happened and one of the joys is that I become almost like a mediator or someone able to engage properly with the question and concern this individual has because they're able to use language they feel comfortable in, and they feel like they're really being understood. You know? So that's been a joy. Just being able to sit there and be able to listen and be able to give an added response or be able to connect to people having a conversation. There's been a misunderstanding because of language, not because they're really mad at each other.

Lucas: 59:21

There's been a misunderstanding because of it. And I'm able to be that mediator in between and be able to bring about and the wonderful thing about it is that you can just start help start a conversation, and then the people become aware like, wait. He or she said this, but what could they possibly have meant? Yeah. And that's something happens with people who speak more than one language.

Lucas: 59:41

They usually ask that question. Okay. They said that, but what what did they actually mean? You know? It's like Right.

Lucas: 59:48

So that's an immediate joy that I have noticed Yeah. In my congregation.

T.J.: 59:53

And we talked about this off mic and I I wanted to bring it up again at One thing that would be helpful is for English speakers or Anglos is a Hispanic church is not a monoculture. So, we'll use that as an example. There are beautiful folks, wonderful folks from different parts of the world who are members of the church. And so to be from Guatemala is different than, you know, having roots in Colombia. And so there's there's nuances there in in in language and in culture and just approach to life, and we're talking about approach to scripture.

T.J.: 01:00:44

But let me say less and you you jump in and say more because you're actually on the front lines.

Lucas: 01:00:52

Mhmm. Yeah. So so the the the biggest challenges that I face or with regards to that is the fact that well, the the the most pressing one is the fact that I have to learn something called neutral Spanish, which is means I try to take away as many colloquial terms that I have or that I have learned from Colombia and try to just make it as neutral. So when I speak, people's faces on twist and turn like, what did you just say? You know?

T.J.: 01:01:20

That must be hard for a comedian, though. No. Seriously. Alright. So I've interrupted you.

T.J.: 01:01:26

But, a good comedian will use those nuances. They use a phrase or word that may have double meanings or triple meanings, and that makes it funny. What does this comedian mean? Does it mean this definition of that word, this definition or phrase? So, woah.

T.J.: 01:01:45

You really have to strip back quite a bit.

Lucas: 01:01:47

It's funny because you have to, like, know what moment you're in. Mhmm. Because, like, is this is this a funny moment? Those are fine. But this wasn't supposed to be.

Lucas: 01:01:55

Why are they making faces? You know, that means you didn't communicate well enough or what you said might mean something different for that individual. You know? Mhmm. So so that's one thing for sure.

Lucas: 01:02:06

Secondly, yes. And this is an unfortunate side effect of sin in the world. But the reason most immigrants are in this country is not because they just wanted to leave their country. They're here because they had a great necessity, mostly economically, you know. For some of them, it's a safety issue, you know.

Lucas: 01:02:25

For some of them, it's just primarily poverty that forced them out of their own country. No one wants to leave their country just because they're like, they have too much, you know, at least because they have a need. So when it comes to that, that's one of the challenge that I face usually is the fact that most of the lens which people have read scripture is a need of necessity. And it might begin there, but then it it becomes something else, hopefully, where God is more than just giving me money, you know, but he's supplying my needs in every way and mostly my spiritual need of salvation in him. But the biggest challenge that I run into is this almost like I don't know what you will call it, but it's like a a the gospel of need of, like, you know, because I have nowhere else to pull from, you know.

Lucas: 01:03:11

And in a lot of ways, it's a good thing, but in some ways, it becomes dangerous and becomes manipulative people, you know, because I have had people I always say this, like, the Cumberland Church, we don't hide or we try not to hide, hopefully, you know. We were very much forward. This is what we believe. This is where confession of faith says, you know. You have any questions, you're more than welcome to ask them.

Lucas: 01:03:30

You know, I I personally believe the scripture is big enough to answer for itself. I don't have to, try to sway you from not asking questions, you know. No. But I'll have a lot of people who have these ideas and I'll ask them, like, where did you get that idea from? And there's usually 1 or 2 passages that are not properly contextualized.

Lucas: 01:03:47

And now they have this old doctrine teaching behind it and it's like, oh, okay. How can we how can the gospel not like, let's go back and maybe read some of the things you you have written. Let's put them in the context of the rest of the text, you know. So that's one thing that I know I I deal with occasionally with some of my church members because once again, it's this their first their first experience usually with the faith has been some individual trying to gain something from them. You know, or trying to steal something from me.

Lucas: 01:04:15

Like, I know one of the challenges that we face is that, Hispanics at times have difficulty tithing to the church. And it's not because here they have less, it's because they've you heard about that pastor who stole a lot of money from so and so, you know? And I don't know how much of my church deal with them. But in Hispanic countries, it's it's a huge thing, it seems, where every pastor is trying to steal what you have and just there's so little, you know, like, we're trying to hold on to what we have. So, yes, that is one of the biggest challenges that I know I face is just trying to undo wrong doctrines.

Lucas: 01:04:47

They have been based on the on the scarcity and fear the individuals had in their country.

T.J.: 01:04:54

I found it interesting what you said about, our approach to scripture. So a mainline approach may be the framework of necessity. I'm gonna read the New and the Old Testament with this lens because that's my circumstances. And not that we would want to take that away, but there are it is another way to approach. So the frame of necessity and grace or and discipleship.

T.J.: 01:05:23

There are other lenses to there are other aspects of us to bring to the text and just being aware of how much we are actually bringing to the text as we study it and pray over it and in ministry, prepare a sermon or a study for. That requires a lack of self awareness that I think sometimes we are reluctant to do. Oh, because going back to what you said earlier, that familiar. I'm familiar this way. That God is going to provide my needs because my circumstances don't allow that, or I'm not able to do it alone, or whatever it may be.

T.J.: 01:06:06

Yeah. But only reading the scriptures with that lens, prevents us from reading other passages in their fullness.

Lucas: 01:06:19

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I and my my desire is this. Because I think it's very important to know where the individual stands with regards to their worldview or the perspective that they hold.

Lucas: 01:06:32

And now challenge it and let them know God will supply your needs. But what else can God do? Mhmm. What else can God bring about in your life? Right?

Lucas: 01:06:41

Because that moves me from saying, God will provide to know that God now God gets to decide what is moral correct in my life. Now god gets to show me. God gets to say, you know what? You're a very prideful individual. God gets to say all these things to me.

Lucas: 01:06:54

So hopefully, you may begin there, but now that they come to church and they're be able to be brought in, like, their their perspective becomes wider and, oh, god can not only do this, but he can do all these other things. And then like I said, ultimately, I hope they realize I can fully depend on this god and give my life completely over to him. Not just in my stomach, but in my heart, in my mind, in everything I do. You know? So hopefully, that's what happens and hopefully, that's what happened in our church.

Lucas: 01:07:25

Yeah.

T.J.: 01:07:26

Lucas, you talked about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, the denomination that we both serve in. What hopes do you have for the church at large, not just at El Radeel or Tennessee Georgia Presbytery, but the entire denomination and this collection of people who love each other, share a faith, have similar histories, and whose eyes are are pointed towards the future. Mhmm. What could that future look like?

Lucas: 01:07:59

Well, this is this is a difficult question, I believe, especially at the moment. Because I don't know if you know this, but I've heard this once. I thought it was hilarious and I thought, but it's also very applicable. The Cumberlands are usually called the frozen chosen. I don't I don't know.

Lucas: 01:08:18

And one of my desires and goals or hopes for the denomination is is for god to give us passion. Mhmm. And not just because we have been a great church intellectually speaking, I think. We have been a great church in certain ministerial aspects, you know. But I feel like one thing that we have become is very, like, comfortable with the fact we do these things well, so let's just continue doing those things.

Lucas: 01:08:46

Mhmm. And we've done it this way, so let's keep doing it this way. You know? So I really one of the hopes that I have is that people will once again become passionate. Once again, I wanna be very careful and say this is a generality from what I've seen.

Lucas: 01:08:59

I'm not saying this is everybody's reality nor do I believe every church is this way. No. But by and large, our nation is very focused on, like, okay. We do these things and that's okay, and we'll continue doing them. So I really hope that God will like, I'm not even saying great awakening type of situation, but just for individuals to become more aware of the fact that they are capable of doing more than they've had and that their lives are always examples of Christ.

Lucas: 01:09:31

And they'd be passionate about this. I I said this, a few days ago in one of our studies. The fact that we have lost the, we have lost the practice of being proud of what we do, you know, or or or, or given our best, you know. We teach our kids nowadays that, like, you know, when homework's due, you you you those kids do it like the night before or, you know, they try to get away with it. How little can I do and still pass is the mentality that we have nowadays?

Lucas: 01:10:02

Mhmm. A few years ago more a lot of years ago, we used to think, how can I present something that is worth all that I am? Mhmm. And we usually take the same perspective with our faith practice. How can I do just enough so god will be pleased with me today?

Lucas: 01:10:18

You know? And I really hope that the church will move back to a spirit of how can I present the best to god today in everything I do? Mhmm. From my words, to my work, to my actions, to my interactions with my kids, with my wife. How can I love them so well that I can say I'm proud of the things I did today for God?

Lucas: 01:10:36

You know? And I'm not being saying we have to be prideful or anything like that, but just know that you gave your best today because you know you want to honor God with what you were doing, you know? Yeah. And I hope

T.J.: 01:10:46

And I would add to that, with passion. With passion. Yeah. With with vigor

Lucas: 01:10:52

to be able to

T.J.: 01:10:53

do it like, wow. Look how excited Lucas is

Lucas: 01:10:56

Mhmm. To

T.J.: 01:10:57

be able to greet people, you know, or or to say that prayer, or Mhmm. You can see it in his eyes that he really wanted to tell that joke. You know what I mean? No. I but with passion.

T.J.: 01:11:10

Yeah. You know? More than just going through the motions, but with passion. I want to be here. I want to share this.

Lucas: 01:11:17

Yeah. It's funny because, someone gave me this this someone told me this when I when I was getting married. And I didn't understand at the time, but now I I I definitely get it a lot more.

T.J.: 01:11:28

He said married.

Lucas: 01:11:31

Almost 10 years now.

T.J.: 01:11:32

Okay.

Lucas: 01:11:32

Yeah. Yeah. But he said he said, Lucas, get ready because nothing will sanctify you like marriage. Nothing will expose your flaws, your selfishness, and wait till you have kids because then you realize, man, I I could be doing better. You know?

Lucas: 01:11:50

Mhmm. And it's humbling. And the only reason I share this to share a second story, my son is now about to be 3. And I remember watching him pick up a rock that was almost as big as him. And my my man was going to town.

Lucas: 01:12:03

He was like, you know, really just trying and trying and trying and trying. In that moment, I felt like I was asking the question, when was the last time you put that much effort into anything?

T.J.: 01:12:14

Mhmm.

Lucas: 01:12:15

When was the last time you had that much passion for something where you literally left everything on the floor because you couldn't do anymore? You know? And I really feel like if I have one hope for the church is peace then. Mhmm. That every minister, that every member of our church can go to bed that night and say, I could have done more fruit of the work today.

Lucas: 01:12:36

You know? And what a joy that was, and I'm hope that God will give me life tomorrow so I can do it all over again. You know? That's one thing I would say, when I look at our church.

T.J.: 01:12:46

Yeah. And to be able to share that good news.

Lucas: 01:12:49

Mhmm.

T.J.: 01:12:50

Yeah. Because It's a collective passion and to exhaust ourselves till we're completely worn out Mhmm. And sharing the good news. Voice, hands, feet, music. Yeah.

T.J.: 01:13:03

What whatever whatever tool or gift has been given to you to be able to utilize that to where you're just worn out.

Lucas: 01:13:13

Yeah. Because the crazy thing is that people, like, we won't even have to say anything. People just be able to look at us and, like, the scripture says, and give glory to God. Like, wow. Look at these people.

Lucas: 01:13:25

What do they have that we don't have? You know?

T.J.: 01:13:27

Mhmm.

Lucas: 01:13:28

And can I help it as well? You know, it will draw them to us without us having to say much.

T.J.: 01:13:33

I think that's a great challenge, an achievable one if we wanna go back to measurements. I think it is something that we can do collectively. And it is a we thing. Yeah. You know, because it can't just be, you know, 30% of Cumberland Presbyterian or 18 or whatever arbitrary number.

T.J.: 01:13:54

It's all of us together.

Lucas: 01:13:56

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like you said a minute ago, I think if I get to see someone else do that, it will encourage my heart. I'm like, no.

Lucas: 01:14:03

I can do this too. You know, I I get what can I do? It will motivate me to action when I see someone else, you know, given their all. So contagious.

T.J.: 01:14:14

Lucas, we talked, a little bit about books and I think we mentioned a movie. Can't remember if that was on or off mic. But what books, movies, what kind of music would you recommend for somebody that, wants to deepen their faith or explore faith

Lucas: 01:14:38

Mhmm.

T.J.: 01:14:41

Is thinking about ministry or just wants to make a greater impact through the grace of God in the people that they're surrounded by?

Lucas: 01:14:51

Yeah. So I actually thought of 3 books that have been very helpful, and I couldn't find one of them, but it was written by our very own, Lynn Thomas. Okay. And I believe the book's called Grace. It's like I wanna dance, I believe, is the title of it.

T.J.: 01:15:07

Yeah. That's one of his newer he's written more than one, so it's it's not

Lucas: 01:15:11

One of his newer ones. He gave it to me this last general assembly. That's when I got it. But I read that book and he primarily focuses on the grace of God and how he not only guides us, he does not only saves us, but he gives the power to bring about change through the spirit of God so we may be able to really live out our faith correctly. You know?

Lucas: 01:15:33

And I always say it's a great book because he gave me a new perspective because I often thought of grace something we just receive. But if I understood Lent, you can correct me if I'm wrong. He said, not only does not only do we receive this grace, but empowers us to bring about change in our life for the things that God wants to change. So I thought it was such a wonderful thing because he shows that God doesn't only receive us, but he changes us. He he enacts his will in our lives to bring about what is truly godly.

Lucas: 01:15:59

So I thought it was a great book and once again, it's a Cumberland, a lifelong Cumberland Mhmm. Who wrote it. So there's a lot of great things in that book that I would, highly encourage people to have. Another one that I thought was good is just, mere Christianity by CS Lewis. I don't know if you perhaps several people recommend that book.

Lucas: 01:16:18

But the reason I I like this book is because it challenges your brain to really think about what you think and what you believe to be true. You know? And I I often tell people this, you know, it takes just as much faith to be a Christian than to be an atheist or anything else. I have to truly believe that what I have believed is gonna get me to wherever I wanna go or wherever I hope you will take me, you know. So, you know, Christianity challenges your notions about things.

Lucas: 01:16:46

And, you know, and and and from a perspective, there's, not so much religious, but just a guy kind of thinking out loud for the rest of us. You know?

T.J.: 01:16:54

Mhmm.

Lucas: 01:16:54

So I think it's it's a great book. It could be challenges your notions, and it challenges just your, how you think, about about whatever topic, you know, because he he he addresses several different ones. So it's pretty good. And the last one that I read last year, which I thought it was great, is a book called Total Truth by Nancy Piercy. And this book, once again, is in the same vein as CS Lewis because of apologetics and really asking the question, you know, the things that you believe, how do they really stack against the truth that we have?

Lucas: 01:17:33

1, for natural revelation, then secondly, from the divine revelation. And once again, it's it's it's such a great book because it allows you and it gives you enough time to say, well, what have I truly believe in? You know? And is that belief system adequate to meet all the needs that that that I have known that, but is it does it meet even the its own requirements? Because some of the religious systems that are out there are self defeating and we don't really think far enough in them, you know.

Lucas: 01:18:02

And but the best thing is that he asked the question of of Christianity. Can the Christian faith really say, do what he says? You know? Is is the claims of the scriptures actually do that align with what the natural world tells us, you know, and things like that. So I think this is a great book that that will help you come to a a realization that not only is scripture reliable, but almost any other, if not all other systems.

Lucas: 01:18:28

Let let me rephrase that. All other systems fall short of what the scriptures truly are and have for us as the ultimate truth of God. So that's a great book. It's a great book. It's a it's a bit not not for beginners maybe, but it's a great resource to have for sure.

T.J.: 01:18:47

You were talking about the Trinity book earlier. So this book, do you have to have a dictionary beside you to be able to look up the words as you go along? There are some books out there like that.

Lucas: 01:19:00

Yeah. No. The the the author uses a lot of Greek and, because he's he's really trying to get you to understand those things. So, yeah, you may need some things, you know, But, hey, if you have a computer or your phone nearby, you can look up some of those things fairly quick, as well. But yeah.

Lucas: 01:19:19

Yeah.

T.J.: 01:19:21

Lucas, I have enjoyed this conversation immeasurably. This is the most we've ever spoken, and so I've gotten to know you through through our time together. And, man, I've really appreciated it. You've given me some things to think about more deeply and it's been amazing to hear you share them because you have thought deeply about some of the things that you have shared with your faith and with your ministry. And Yeah.

T.J.: 01:19:51

I enjoy that. Really do.

Lucas: 01:19:53

Oh, well, thank you. Thank you for your time, and thank you for having me.

T.J.: 01:19:58

Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road. If you enjoyed this faith conversation, check out the other guest on Apple Podcast, Google, Spotify, and at cumberlandroad.transistor.fm. In closing, I want to read from Lynn Thomas' book, I Want to Dance. The amazing thing about grace is that sacrifice, selflessness, new behaviors, and new directions in life are all driven by enthusiasm and the persistent feeling that one is freely making their own decisions. Thanks for listening.