Mark Craven - The Need For Community
You are listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. My guest for this episode is Reverend Mark Craven, Cumberland Presbyterian minister, a biologist and dive safety officer at the Tennessee Aquarium in Chattanooga, Tennessee. In our conversation, we talk about solitude, community, and Mark's preparation to ministry. Thank you for listening to The Cumberland Road, and here's my conversation with Mark Craven.
T.J.:Mark, thank you for being on the podcast. I wanna open our conversation about one of your vocations. You are a diver at the Tennessee Aquarium in Chattanooga, Tennessee. I know nothing about diving. So what is it that you do, and what does that feel like?
Mark:Well, TJ, it's it's a pleasure to be with you today. I appreciate you inviting me. Yeah. I I dive actually, I'm the my official title is manager of operations. My official title is manager of operations and dive safety officer.
Mark:So my role at the aquarium for the last, oh, almost 20 years, I've been there for 27, but my, the last 20 or so, is to, orchestrate everything that happens under the auspice of the aquarium, that occurs underwater. So I've got currently about a 150 volunteers, from all walks of life that come in and help us feed fish and clean exhibits and that sort of thing. And I'll I do all of their training, all of their scheduling, all of their oversight. And then we've got about, 25 staff members that dive as part of their jobs. Mostly, they're biologists.
Mark:We got a few maintenance folks and some education folks and, outliers around and about. But the vast majority of what we do is focused on taking care of animal collection, keeping the animals fit, keeping the systems clean, and presentable for the public.
T.J.:Alright. There's so many questions. So to be a biologist, you don't have to be a diver. But to be a diver and a biologist, does that help in the field that you're in at the at the Tennessee Aquarium?
Mark:Absolutely. If you're gonna be a biologist with us in the fish department, we have different taxa in our collection, but the folks that take care of fish, it's actually a job requirement. You have to be, be able to dive to help take care of those. And that's actually where I started, way back when, I was, came in as a biologist. I've taken care of, I would say, a good percentage of, the collection that we have here at the Tennessee Aquarium in terms of fish.
Mark:I've also had a stint or 2 as a herpetologist taking care of snakes and turtles and amphibians and those sorts of things. But then wound up in a role as as our primary point person for the diving, occupational diving. So
T.J.:Mark, you you climb the corporate ladder is what you're saying?
Mark:This is the only real job I've ever had since I started before I graduated, from my undergrad, and and I'm still here. So
T.J.:Alright. So there is a diverse school. Right? So you went to school, became a biologist, but then there's additional schooling for diving. So what is that like?
T.J.:Where, and where do people go for diving school?
Mark:Actually, believe it or not, I took my first diving certification class, just recreational diving class, as my PE during my undergrad at Tennessee Tech.
T.J.:Okay.
Mark:I've got a my undergrad's in aquatic biology and fisheries management. And that was sounded like the most helpful and enjoyable way to knock out that, requirement for a physical education class. So, there are various, avenues other than school to get, your diversification. Most people do it recreationally through a, a dive store, or there's there's, other venues like that.
T.J.:So your position, your role covers the maintenance of the various tanks in the environments for the reptiles and fish and etcetera, but also the direct care of of those reptiles, of those I'm trying to avoid the word animals because I know that isn't proper or correct, but it is a good default term to use for non human creatures?
Mark:Yeah. So our our aquatic collection
T.J.:Okay. I'll write that down.
Mark:I provide labor for our biologists in order to help them take care of their, their aquatic exhibits, in the form of people who are able to dive, mostly volunteers. Actually, for our our main exhibits. And then, of course, the the aquarius do quite a bit of diving on their own, in our smaller enclosures.
T.J.:How did you Just
Mark:putting putting people in the right place with the right tools.
T.J.:Right. Okay. How did you get into diving? Was this a childhood dream?
Mark:No. It was not. It was something that I saw that would be good for a resume trying to get into this, environment. Actually, it's a very convoluted story. I started my college career at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, with the idea that I was gonna be a secondary science teacher and spent a handful of semesters pursuing that goal.
Mark:While I was doing that, I found myself in want of a better part time job while I was at school instead of fast food or waiting tables, and actually wound up seeing an advertisement for a position as, what we call visitor services associates. You know, the folks that take tickets and stand and answer questions at the aquarium. And that's how I got my foot in the door at the aquarium. I took tickets and, directed traffic and that sort of thing for a few semesters while I was at tech. Got kinda sucked into the group of folks that took care of the animal collection and really took off with them.
Mark:Found a bond there. I've always been an outdoor person. I was a scout growing up. We can talk about that as much as you want to later, because I'm still super involved in that program. And wound up transferring over to Tennessee Tech because they had the better biology program from my perspective, in terms of of getting my foot in the door in the appropriate department at the aquarium.
Mark:So, yeah. I basically grew up here.
T.J.:So you the aquarium wasn't that old then when you started part time?
Mark:No. I started working here the 2nd year that they were open.
T.J.:Okay. Yeah. Because it hasn't been around that long.
Mark:We just had our 30th anniversary.
T.J.:Yeah. Okay. Well, let's go back, Mark. How let's go back to your childhood and talk about faith, and and we can do full circle, because I'm really interested in how you practiced your faith in in this field, in kind of the life of a bivocational minister. But let's let's go back to some childhood.
T.J.:Did you grow up in in the church?
Mark:I did. I was born, here in Chattanooga. My parents at the time were living in Jasper, Tennessee. And, actually, I am about to be installed at the church that I was born into.
T.J.:We can
Mark:talk about that a bit as well if you want. But, the terminal Presbyterian Church there in in Jasper, Tennessee, when I was about 7 years old, my father got transferred, and we moved, a bit north up to Dayton. And at that point, there was no longer a CP church in Dayton. So we followed my my mother's side of the family into the the realm of the Baptists and actually grew up in, a Baptist church there in Dayton. Coming back for the weekends to see my grandparents at the, Cumberland Church in Jasper.
Mark:So I kinda had my foot in both worlds for most of my childhood And, was one of those people who, if the doors were open, we were there. And, that developed into my being youth choir and hand bells and youth orchestra. And, I was I think it was vice president of the Bible Club in high school, and all of that sort of stuff. So yeah. I've been, I was relatively involved up until the time that I graduated high school, and then life hit.
Mark:And, I followed a little bit of a journey of what folks now are calling deconstruction.
T.J.:Okay. Let's dive a little lot of
Mark:a little
T.J.:deeper. So you're you know, you are a young adult, late teens, early twenties. And that deconstruction, what did it look like? Deconstruction of the faith. Right?
Mark:Right. For me, I never felt like I was questioning God, the presence of God in my life. I never felt like, I wanted to push against the scriptural teachings, but I pushed against the church.
T.J.:As an institution.
Mark:As an institution. And I pushed against, some of the things that I saw the church doing, or teaching that I didn't necessarily see in scripture, or didn't, that didn't sit right with me?
T.J.:Let me interrupt you just for a minute. So in present day, has that changed any, Mark?
Mark:It has changed. It's changed. Some of that was and, you know, isn't everything in our life contextual? Some of that was due to what I was experiencing in that particular setting, in that particular time.
T.J.:Yeah. Right. Right. And I the reason I'm asking, I've got a grin on my face because you are now part of the institution.
Mark:The institution. And that's that's God works in mysterious ways.
T.J.:But but anyway, I interrupted you. So you had this time in your life of really examining, and deconstructing the the church as an institution, but also your relationship to God through that institution, and then I interrupted you.
Mark:No. No. That's quite alright. I, I think many young people, have that period of trying to find oneself, trying to, you know, pushing boundaries, having new experiences, those sorts of things. I had them a period where I felt the most worshipful, I guess.
Mark:The most at peace. The most, I was best able to pray and meditate when I was away from folks. Mostly, I found that out in nature. I spent a lot of time, backpacking by myself and fly fishing by myself and, paddling creeks by myself. I that was my quiet time.
Mark:That was my contemplative time, because I had some experiences that I found that there was inconsistencies in the church with what was being taught and what was being done. And I I pushed against that.
T.J.:What do you think you were looking for in those moments of solitude? Or was it just a form of resistance to, I don't know, the the inconsistencies of the the community, the contradictions of the of the community of faith and just the community of humans. It can cloud the mind.
Mark:It it can. Indeed. I, I'm I don't I don't overtly know what I was looking for. I was looking for the noise to quieten, whether that makes any sense to anyone else or not. It seems like there was we all know the need for Koinonia, the need for community, the need for, gathering and and holding one another up and that sort of thing.
Mark:But I felt like there was, more of a need at that time for me to to be alone with my thoughts and with God Mhmm. For whatever reason.
T.J.:You know, I and I'm not a diver, but the times that I've been underwater gosh, that sounds so silly hearing it out loud. Sounded better in my head. But there is that sense of solitude and quietness when you're underwater.
Mark:Absolutely. It is the most tranquil, meditative existence that I know of. Mhmm. There's no more peaceful place to be for me than underwater, where all you can hear is the exhaust coming out of your regulator, or if you're in an appropriate place like the snapping shrimp that live in the in the reef that literally sounds like thousands of people snapping their fingers at the same time. Or there was a point in my diving career where I I did quite a bit of cave diving.
Mark:So you you can add into that the the pitch black darkness and dead silence except for your, like I said, your exhaust bubbles. And it's the most, like I said, meditative sort of place I I can think to be.
T.J.:Well, going back to the young adulthood no. This is great. This is great. Going back to the young adulthood and these times of doing things by yourself and, you know, camping, hiking, fishing, what discoveries did you make?
Mark:I learned that I could be alone because I didn't have a lot of that growing up. We all, you know, it was always community around. There was always family or the scout unit or the youth group. Everything was done in, you know, packs of people. And maybe that's what I was looking for.
Mark:Maybe I was looking for validation that I could actually take care of myself. Mhmm. Or, whether it be, you know, physically or or emotionally.
T.J.:Yeah. The self discovery is a journey at times that you have to take on your own.
Mark:Indeed. Indeed.
T.J.:So looking back on that time of your life and now you're in ministry, do you would you encourage people to young people and folks of any age to question, inquire, explore the deep meanings behind some of the things that we do within the Christian faith? Why we believe what we do? What is the genesis of some of the beliefs and the practices?
Mark:Absolutely. I know in in other podcast with other folks you've asked, well, what does church got right? What does church not got quite right
T.J.:right now.
Mark:I believe that we have taken to an extent, at least in my experience, the education of the depth of what we do out of our curriculum. We talk about our sacraments. We talk about our traditions, but we don't always give the the whys or the theological background or, even some of the, the, I hate the word ritualistic, but the, you know, our liturgy, our, traditions, the why seems to have gotten away from us. And I think there's a a tremendous amount of meaning and a tremendous amount of And then you can articulate the reasons why,
T.J.:And then you can articulate the reasons why you practice or worship or believe or why not, if you kind of follow that thread or that umbilical cord as far back as you you possibly can to discover the richness of the tradition, its beginnings, how it's changed, how it's been interpreted, and and its contemporary meanings as well.
Mark:For me,
T.J.:That's a fascinating journey, but the only way to be able to do those things is to ask questions.
Mark:Indeed. Indeed.
T.J.:And, I think I think the, the community of faith is, can be a good space for people to feel confident enough, comfortable enough, trustful enough to be able to ask those questions and to not offend. And that's why I asked if you would encourage a similar path or a time in our lives like you experienced to to kind of look at the the church as an institution, but also the personal faith as well, and and do those deep dives and to discover who am I and what am I in relation to this creation, this world, and to God, and to the Christian faith? Right. Well, I think it's
Mark:it's vital to be in a position to be able to ask those questions. It's vital to surround yourself with, people who are willing to share and people that you have that level of comfort with, that level of faith in, to give you answers. But then, you've got to have that alone time and that contemplative time to digest that
T.J.:Yeah.
Mark:And see where it sits with you and to, go back to scripture independently of what you're being told and see what it says, to kinda submit where you are and how the holy spirit is speaking to you.
T.J.:I think I would add to that as well, that the the inquiry and the adventure and the journey that comes with it, you know, there really probably isn't a place of arrival. So questions Oh, no. Of the faith or about the faith and the institution that is interweaved with it, Those are questions and inquiries that we just should always explore. And I think I think we can do it individually, but it's also really neat to be able to do it in small groups as well, you know, like a Sunday school class or small group or a group of family or close friends, to create those environments to go, yeah. This is this is great.
T.J.:This is what makes us distinctive. And then maybe able to be able to say, maybe some of these things can be dropped to the side. Maybe they don't have the significance that they did a generation ago or 2 generations ago. Not that you completely discard them. You just don't give it the same amount of weight that maybe others in the past have.
Mark:Right. Or maybe you find something that has been dropped that might be brought back to the fore. Who knows?
T.J.:Yeah. We do it all the time. You know? We we, discover and rediscover. You had mentioned, you know, liturgy, you know, and the traditions behind that or finding meaning in old hymns.
Mark:And I'm not saying that, anything anyone can exist in a vacuum. You've got to have those interactions. But I think it's vitally important that you take what you've learned during those interactions and have some solo introspective time instead of just taking things at face value and moving on.
T.J.:Well, Mark, when you were doing this, deep search, who were the people that you leaned on, in that part of your life, in that time of your life? Who did you go out and measure some of these discoveries and these thoughts and these questions that you had? Because you couldn't be Thoreau your whole life.
Mark:Indeed. There were some good discussions, with my father, but during those wandering years, my pushing against the church for the most part was a solo event. And what got me pulled back around to understanding, the need for community and the need for for reinserting myself was when I met my wife, who is now my wife. Katrina grew up as a a PK, in the church, in a Baptist tradition, and, we actually met at the aquarium. She was in our marketing department, and she likes to tell folks that we we met during a shoot for the French National Geographic.
Mark:We did we're filming a TV show called the world's deadliest creatures part 2. And I was working with some venomous snakes at that point. But it and anyway, she's the one that that kinda drew me back in and allowed that tether to be clipped back and and pull me back to earth. And as we got more involved in our relationship, it was, overt that there was gonna be no further movement in the relationship unless it was we found ourselves in a family of faith and were able to to get back into church and to to grow. And that's we landed at the Red Bank Cumberland Presbyterian Church, just outside of Chattanooga
T.J.:here. Alright. So, Mark, to recap, the the 2 of you met man, it seems like there's been some high points in in your life that kinda generate around both the church and the aquaria.
Mark:Yes. Yes, indeed.
T.J.:But it it was so it was in that development of that relationship, who later turned out to be your wife where you were well, you said earlier you never left the faith, but you were drawn back into it in in a new a renewed way and in a healthy way. In those early moments, did you ever envision ministry to the word and sacraments?
Mark:I ran for a very long time, and I think maybe some of the pushing against the church itself was part of that marathon.
T.J.:You know, that makes sense because if it's something that you don't want to do, then you start picking at the things of why you shouldn't do it. You find the imperfections.
Mark:Exactly. Exactly.
T.J.:And the church is imperfect, of course. Right. Church with a capital c, Church with a little c. So that yeah. That makes sense.
Mark:Right. Well, you know, I'd I'd mentioned earlier that, I was we were in church constantly when I was, a young person and I was very heavily involved in the youth group and that sort of thing. You know, I was I was one of the ones in the youth group who always had to do the the Sunday night presentation after the youth miss mission trip. But, was teaching some classes here and there for younger kids and, those sorts of things. My grandmother, my my father's mother, would tell, her friends that I gave my first sermon at, like, the age of 2 at her coffee table.
Mark:And like I said, I was, you know, an officer in the bible club and led those bible studies, in high school and that sort of thing. So there was always that, bent toward leadership in those type of groups. My great grandfather was a CP pastor. My grandparents were elders in the church. My father was an elder in the CP church, prior to my birth.
Mark:So it was always something that was talked about
T.J.:Mhmm. In
Mark:the family. It was always something, that I felt like there was an expectation of. But it was never something that I wanted to do. And then after my wandering time and and being brought back into the church with, meeting Katrina. And we joined within 6 months of us being married, we joined the Red Bank Church.
Mark:And probably within a year of joining the church, maybe a year and a half the most, I found myself on the diaconate there. And there were 2 stints there, and I was an elder somehow out of the blue. And, not really. You know how that goes.
T.J.:Yeah.
Mark:It felt, surreal to be given that opportunity or given that that, responsibility at that point. And probably 3 years into being on the session, I was doing, Wednesday night bible studies when the pastor wasn't there and teaching some Sunday school classes and found myself kind of assuming that leadership again.
T.J.:Did someone approach you about a call to ministry, or recognize the gifts within you, or did you initiate the conversation?
Mark:There were some comments made by others on the session by other, folks in the congregation. And I think the the culminating solidifying event was we and we we were driving somewhere, taking one of the kids to one of their events or something. And my wife looked over at me in the car and said, I told my dad I wasn't gonna marry a pastor. Because I've seen how the sausage is made. I know what that life is like.
T.J.:And the 2 of you have not talked about
Mark:do that. Oh, no. It just it was just Just out of the blue. And I said, you know what? I I think it's something you're gonna have to come to terms with.
Mark:So that week, I went and talked to Jeff Sledge, who was the pastor, at the time. We were kind of in a bit of of transition and wound up having coffee and lunch with with several other folks in the presbytery to figure out what this was and and where I was going and and that sort of thing. And that's that's kinda how that ball got started.
T.J.:So in those, early moments, you know, I mean, the struggle with ministry being second career is examining the first career that you have and how those 2 complement one another. Can they complement one another? What that dance will look like? Returning to school, starting school over again. There's so many variables for those who are second or third career and are experiencing a call to ministry.
T.J.:And you still have children at the time, Right?
Mark:Oh, absolutely.
T.J.:And, so walk me through what that was like for you.
Mark:It's terrifying.
T.J.:That
Mark:that's
T.J.:I appreciate the honesty.
Mark:The big word. There was a lot of, a lot of late night chats with with Katrina, a lot of a lot of talking with the with the kids about how this was gonna come about and what options we felt like we had as a family in terms of my education and those sorts of things. And there was validation. I I feel like what I've done here at the aquarium was, although it sounds bizarre, pretty good foundational training. At that point, prior to COVID, I was managing 225 volunteers.
T.J.:Wow.
Mark:I basically had a congregation
T.J.:to
Mark:take care of, in a lot of ways. I mean, there's a lot of overlap there. Being able to deal with with the different personalities and the different experiences that people are going through in life and and those sorts of things and, learning, effective communication and, those sorts of things. But then, jumping back into school was a challenge. And trying to incorporate that into, home life and into work, and luckily, my schedule here allowed me to do that.
Mark:My supervisor, our human resources, the facility was absolutely fabulous in terms of giving me the time that I needed and, being flexible with my schedule, and all of those sorts of things. And that worked out really, really very well. So getting through seminary, it was taxing. Mhmm. But it it worked out.
Mark:Everything somewhat fell in place for me.
T.J.:And and, Mark, did you take the seminary, path, the program of alternate studies? What
Mark:I I wound up going through seminary. I went to, Moody Theological. Mhmm. And I did it. It was the Moody program that I that I did was one of the first ATS accredited online seminary courses.
Mark:It's the entire MDiv, was checked off by ATS, for accreditation, via online. And, there was a lot of discussion with a lot of folks about the pros and cons of that approach and concerns about, community and those sorts of things. And, I feel like my experience with that particular program could not have been any better.
T.J.:And you began when that was an exception. And you fast forward to where we are presently, and it's becoming more and more of a norm in terms of continuing education
Mark:Indeed.
T.J.:Or education in general, much of it can be done online and communities can be formed where communities are needed.
Mark:Exactly. Exactly. And it was very it was fun. It was interesting. It was, fun to be part of the challenge of forming those communities remotely.
Mark:But there was so much value added to be able to be in a class and having discussions with people that were literally all over the globe.
T.J.:Yeah.
Mark:There were folks in some of my classes that were in Europe. There were folks that were in Asia. We had some, students that were in Africa. And getting that global perspective, was immeasurable.
T.J.:How long did it take you to work through seminary for your masters of divinity?
Mark:Well, it felt just shy of eternity. It it was it was 7 years.
T.J.:Yeah. And I'm not asking because of your capabilities. I'm asking because it was, online and by vocational. I didn't know the flexibility of in the early days of the online courses like that.
Mark:The format, the format that Moody used was 8 week block classes. So you were able to get 2 8 week blocks in a semester. Mhmm. And I was, at that time, still working a normal 40 to 50 hour work week. So I went through one class per 8 out 8 week block.
Mark:So that's what took as long as it did. And then there were there was a health crisis in the middle of that and some other things. So
T.J.:During this time, you end up becoming stated supply at the Jasper Cumberland Presbyterian Church, which ended up being your, family church. So how did that come come to be?
Mark:So I was brought under care see if I can get the timeline right. I was brought under care at our spring meeting, which would have been early May. And by June, I was filling pulpits. And before the end of the summer, I was pulpit supply at Jasper. So it happened almost immediately.
Mark:And the the pastor that was at Jasper had retired. Jim Patterson had I'm guessing he had retired for probably the second, at least the second time, maybe the third time at that point. And they were looking for someone to fill the pulpit long term there. And so I I went and uncovered 1 Sunday. And on my way out, was asked if I had anything to do the next week.
Mark:And it kinda that's how it started. I just kept being asked back. So
T.J.:I know you don't have much of a comparison, but could you describe what it's like to serve the church that your family is a part of? And keep in mind, they may be listening to this. So
Mark:Oh, I'm sure they are. We're we're a small congregation.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Mark:As many are. So, having my parents there is it's comforting. It is very homey. The when I when I first began, you know, I'm I'm standing at the pulpit looking at the lady who taught me in nursery school. You know, was my Sunday school teacher when I was tiny, thinking, what in the world am I going to offer these folks that were the ones that were teaching me?
T.J.:Yeah. I mean, they were formative in
Mark:your own 25 years ago.
T.J.:Yeah. Formative in your own faith.
Mark:Formative, exactly. So there was, a quite a bit of stress from that perspective. But, as time has progressed and as I've been able to get more comfortable with my own skills and knowledge, it's like it's like a family gathering every, every Sunday. When we when we go in for worship, it's, our style is probably a bit more formal than some, congregations are now, but, it's very familial. I've got a handful of grandparents when we when we gather.
Mark:It's that's the feeling of it.
T.J.:And I wonder what it's like for those in you're not in solitary when it comes to being connected to church and serving a church that you have family ties or grew up in. But I wonder what it's like also for those who there must be the challenge to see through that, the aspect of well, I remember when, you know, you, I don't know, did donuts in the church parking lot or
Mark:or Colored on the walls.
T.J.:Yeah. Color on the walls or, you know, I don't whatever it is that we do. I I don't wanna say too much and, like, admit to the things that I did in my church growing up. But whatever it is, you know, think the challenge for people to to remember that but also still hear hear the word but also receive pastoral care when it's needed and and and those sorts of things. You know, because the relationship is is different than than it was in, you know, youth or or as a single child.
Mark:Well and I think I've benefited a bit in that regard because we did move away from the area Mhmm. When I was young. And there was while there was contact, it was intermittent.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Mark:So there was that that level of separation there. But more than, comments about what I did in my misspent youth. It was it was what has been relayed to me is, the pride that they have in having had whatever amount of involvement they've had in in my being there, which is humbling.
T.J.:Well, Mark, you were just recently ordained this fall. Congratulations. And and now what? What does that mean in the long string of of preparation for ministry and, the validation of your gifts. So what is what is next?
T.J.:What do you see now? Because at least in my experience in in preparation for ministry, and my call came came in teenage years, but it almost seemed like a, a barrier, like a holding back. You know, you have to wait. You have to be older. You You have to go to college.
T.J.:You have to go to seminary. So and then all of a sudden, you've you've done all the accomplishments. You've done what is needed, and you have been ordained. So what are you able to do in ministry now that you feel that maybe you couldn't do, earlier stages in preparation for ministry?
Mark:Well, coming into its 2nd career, I think I had sort of the opposite experience. It was all hurry up.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Mark:You wanna do this before you hit x age, and you're not able to do things anymore. You want to, you know, why is it taking the better part of the decade to be able to make this transition? That's funny. Because
T.J.:those were the questions in my head, in terms of, you know, to hurry to hurry hurry, you know, cut me loose so that I can do these things. But what you're saying is those questions, those thoughts and feelings were actually coming from the people that you were serving. Yes. Not necessarily so much mine were inward, yours were external.
Mark:There was there was a lot of I won't say a lot. There was pressure to hurry up and get through seminary and get, you know, we don't want to have to bring someone else in to do communion. We don't want to have to, you know, put off accepting these visitors that want to join the church because there's nobody here to do that. You know, those sorts of things. There was some of that.
Mark:And maybe, I'm sure to an extent that was, that pressure was put on myself, as much as it was, communicated from the congregation or the session. But, I remember times through some of my classes where I just wanted to stop with this material and allow it to simmer a little longer and allow myself to spend a little bit more time, with things. And I finally got smart enough about halfway through to start journaling those times so that I would have some reference to go back to, and be able to find that. Now that I theoretically do have time to do that, But there was a there was a lot of push, from a time standpoint. And, you know, going back to the the process, there was a tremendous amount of fulfillment in completing the coursework and delving more deeply into the scripture and exploring the the languages and and all of those sorts of things.
Mark:But there was there was also some struggle, not only from time, I felt like I was taking, time away from my family. I wasn't able to be as involved as a parent as, I wanted to be and as I previously had been. I had to step back from, you know, being my son's scout leader and, you know, the and I still carry a little bit of regret, I guess, for having to have those moments where I felt like I was putting them on the back burner, and maybe that was pushing some of that inward need to hurry through things as well.
T.J.:What advice do you have for somebody who may be exploring the call to ministry as a second career and is balancing already family, a vocation, or maybe 2, their their activity within a local church, all these different extensions, all these different pools, what encouragement would you give somebody who is is weighing, you know, if I go ahead and move in this direction in my relationship with God in terms of service, all of this is gonna drastically change. Mhmm. Because I can see a lot of folks inwardly talking themselves out of not pursuing ministry. And that that can be missionary. That can be a chaplain.
T.J.:That can be serving a local church. I mean, ministry takes on many forms. But to do it as a calling, as a primary focus.
Mark:The number one role in scuba diving that we teach all of our students right out of the gate is never hold your breath. You've got to continuously keep breathing. That's part of the physics of being, under pressure, breathing compressed gases. You you will injure yourself if you hold your breath. So my my first lesson or my first piece of advice for folks jumping into this is just keep breathing.
Mark:It's gonna be okay. The time will work itself out. The other, hopefully, sage, advice that I would give is that, this calling, though it is your individual calling, is going to be a team effort. With a a single member of a family is called into the vocational ministry, there's got to be buy in to an extent. There's got to be that level of support.
Mark:And I think being able to garner that, support from the rest of the family is something that needs to happen overtly. Mhmm. You've got to have those discussions with everybody that this is gonna affect. You can't just drag them along kicking and screaming. And I think the more you focus on having those conversations and being, open to to talking through those points of, tension, the better things are gonna be for you.
T.J.:Yeah. I found it really compelling when you were sharing earlier that, you had conversations as a family and and so with your children. And that makes sense now, you know, tying it in to what you just said because the relationship with your children would change, but so would it for sons and daughters because that parent, their time schedule and their physical presence is going to be different. Right. And and you don't want them coming out on the other end, whatever the other end may look like, with a a resentment towards the church as an institution, but even more importantly, a resentment towards, God and towards, you know, relationship with God.
T.J.:That Right. So that sounds really healthy. That, I mean, that makes a whole lot of sense. Even the level of comprehension is unknown, but the level of comprehension is unknown even for the one who is receiving the call.
Mark:Indeed.
T.J.:You know, there there's unknown variables to that, which is terrifying as you said and exciting as well. The unknown is exciting.
Mark:Yes. It it is exciting. And, I guess, my final thought in in that regard, if I'm talking to someone who's looking down the barrel of this, is to enjoy the ride as much as possible. We, again, as the church, have a a reputation for not liking change. Right?
Mark:Whether it be corporate change or whether it be individual change. But with change comes growth. Right? And, being able to to come to terms with everything changing as far as your your daily schedule, your activities that you are accustomed to, not happening anymore. Your, the way you think about things, you know, when you're in the middle of all of this, the theological education, I found myself every single conversation, every single interaction I had, whether it was at school, or at the aquarium, or in the grocery store, took on different understanding, and there was a different way I thought about things.
Mark:And, being able to embrace that, and use it to whatever good you can find, is important. I, I think you have to, I think the individual has to make that overt decision in order to get any level of comfort with the amount of change that you're about to experience.
T.J.:Mark, let's talk about evangelism. Let's talk about faith sharing and what that can look like in the workplace. And I know context matters when I ask that question, but what has been your experiences, being bivocational and then being well, having a vocation, a career, and then a call to ministry and then by vocation. But just as a Christian in general, what does faith sharing look like? What can it look like?
T.J.:What can it sound like? What can it be in a workplace, just in everyday environment outside of the institution of the church?
Mark:In my context, of course, I'm I'm exposed because of my position as a volunteer manager to people from all walks of life. Mhmm. But within our staff, I have, through the years, been surrounded mostly by scientists, by biologists, by people that don't necessarily take the same view of creation, as I do that that tend to be a bit more don't wanna use the word pragmatic, scientific in their thought. And there's been some hurdles to be stepped across, in terms of relationship forming with, colleagues because of, different outlooks. But in terms of evangelism, in terms of of sharing faith, in my context, I feel like I've had the most luck at luck.
Mark:That's probably a a terrible way to put it. I've had the the most conversation starting occur because of the way I've interacted with people in terms of showing respect, in terms of listening to folks. I've had people start conversation with me about things outside of what normal normally would be, typical work conversations because they noted my consistency with how I treat people. And those conversations turn into, you know, what's the motivation for how you treat people, Turns into the the evangelistic message.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Mark:It's difficult. Or I have found it difficult in my context at least. Even though we're, you know, in the bible belt, in this part of the world, come out pushing too hard, then it's not well received.
T.J.:Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Mark:Folks aren't aren't as open to having conversations if you're too overt.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. People resist it. Just just as we resist. I don't what would be a good example?
T.J.:Well, you know, you're resistant to something that maybe you're not ready to chew on yet or think about or have an affinity for, maybe repulsed by. I mean, think of, not necessarily in terms of faith, but of other things that you have to be at the right time, at the right context, right place. And and trust comes. It's essential.
Mark:Absolutely. You you have got to build that relationship. Yeah. To whatever extent. There's got to be some level of relationship there before you can you can have productive conversations.
T.J.:And, you know, you confirm this, just moments ago when you know, with staff and volunteers who have watched your consistency in the workplace. That's over a long period of time to be able to see that Mark is consistently kind and receptive, pastorally, whatever the creative words that people wanna use. And why? Why when you can treat a volunteer less than maybe a part time or full time staff? You know, I mean, why why are you treating everyone the same?
T.J.:I'm not dismissing volunteers, but I would think that could be a question, you know, through observation. Volunteers come and go. Yeah.
Mark:Yeah. Absolutely. And, trying to to create a culture within the institution of treating people equally. Giving giving folks due respect.
T.J.:Well, that that's a good segue. Let's talk about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, which is an institution. It's a community of people, community of faith. What has been some of your favorite aspects of this denomination? What makes you proud to be a Cumberland Presbyterian minister?
T.J.:Newly minted Cumberland Presbyterian minister?
Mark:The familial nature of the denomination, we, we are very relational, with one another. It it feels like home. The evangelistic nature, the fact that we are still reaching out and we're still pushing the frontier, as we did before. And, you know, there's a lot lots of folks that, that do good work, that do short term work. And we tend to be folks that go and stay and learn and grow.
Mark:And, not that we're perfect, but, I think we're we're on the right track in in those terms.
T.J.:Yeah. I haven't met the perfect Cumberland Presbyterian yet. Not yet anyway. There may be one out there.
Mark:There might be.
T.J.:Well, we were talking off mic about, music. So, what books are you reading? What kind of music are you listening to? Any movies that, any of the above that have impacted your life, impacted your faith? Current or in the past?
Mark:Oh. I know my wife is already laughing. So those of us that are that are old enough to remember the actual rental stores.
T.J.:Oh, yeah.
Mark:You'll pick out your movie, you know, your VHS tape, and take them home. I'm I'm the guy who would drop the movie that we got the previous week in the bin on the way in the store, and go peruse the shelves trying to find something new to watch more than once. Pick up a title, say, hey, this looks like a really good movie. And my wife say, that's what we dropped on the way in the store, and we watched that last
T.J.:week. That's awful, Mark.
Mark:Movies for me don't stick for whatever reason. I can't I can't name any actors. I can't really even tell you a whole lot of plot lines unless I've seen it multiple times. I'm not really a movie guy. Books, I'm still kind of reeling from having read all of my, my textbooks.
Mark:I haven't gotten back into, into pleasure reading yet. Although, I'm making my way currently through, doctor Campbell's collection. I had the honor of of meeting him for the first time just a few weeks ago, and he very generously, sent me a couple of of his books to read and I've I've he's got one that he calls Campbell's collection. I don't know if you've seen it or seen it lately.
T.J.:Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Mark:But it's,
T.J.:Yeah. Doc doctor Tom Campbell, he was a he's been a previous guest on the on the podcast, and, I've been calling him the Mark Twain at the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Mark:Indeed. So I'm making my way through his thoughts.
T.J.:Okay.
Mark:Right now. And there's, there's some good stuff in there.
T.J.:Indeed. Mark, I have appreciated your time and opening up my eyes to the aquatic collection, and the aquatic creation of and how you have been able to balance, multiple careers, and be able to impact a lot of people, through your faith. And, so I've appreciated what you've had to share. And, best, in terms of encouragement and strength and wonderful experiences ahead as an ordained Cumberland Presbyterian minister. And you get installed in Jasper next month, about 2023.
Mark:Right. The the end of, January. So
T.J.:Yeah. Right right when it likes to snow there in the lower middle Tennessee area or, lower middle east Tennessee area.
Mark:Tennessee Valley.
T.J.:There you go. Okay. Good. That was good technical term. But, Mark, I appreciate it.
T.J.:Thank you so much.
Mark:It's it's been a pleasure, TJ and I speaking about how we're we're familiar, here as as CPs. I've really enjoyed your podcast, being here and listening and getting to know folks, within the denomination. I appreciate you doing this for us.
T.J.:Yeah. Thank you, Mark.
T.J.:You've been listening to The Cumberland Road. If you would, subscribe and follow on Apple and Spotify. In my conversation with Mark, there was a fleeting reference to the author, philosopher, Henry David Thoreau. So in closing, take a quote from this conclusion of living next to the Walden Pond. Thoreau writes, I learned this, at least by my experiment, that if anyone advances confidently in the direction of his dreams and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. He will put some things behind, will pass an invisible boundary, new, universal, and more liberal laws will begin to establish themselves around and within him, where the old laws will be expanded and interpreted in his favor in a more liberal sense, and he will live with the license of a higher order of beings. In proportion, as he simplifies his life, the laws of the universe will appear less complex, and solitude will not be solitude, nor poverty, poverty, nor weakness, weakness. If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost. That is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them.
