Cumberland Road

T. J.: 00:03

You're listening to the Cumberland Road and I am your host TJ Malinoski. The following is a faith conversation with Mark Hester. He has had a long bi vocational career as an investment advisor, financial planner, and a Cumberland Presbyterian minister, often serving in the role as interim and supply pastor. He is currently serving as the senior minister at the Loudoun Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and he's in his final year of doctoral studies and pastoral therapy at Memphis Theological Seminary. His doctoral research is on clergy care for Cumberland Presbyterian ministers involving their self care and continuing education. If you are a Cumberland Presbyterian minister, click the link in the show notes and take the survey. I just took it. It takes about five minutes, and it's just point and click. Easy, and you're done, and it will help ministers now and in the future. Here is my conversation with Mark Hester.

T. J.: 01:30

Mark, you are in your final year in a doctor of ministry and pastoral therapy. If you don't mind, what is pastoral therapy and does it differ from pastoral care?

Mark: 01:47

Well, you for that question. I believe it does differ. I believe that everyone in ministry is participating in pastoral care. And so for all of my parts of four or five decades, I've been in pastoral care because one of the things that we do as ministers is we care. We don't cure, but we care.

Mark: 02:13

And we look after our flock and our church family. And that's all part of the caring structure. The therapy structure is more intentional that we're looking at transgenerational family structures, and we're looking at order of children, we're looking at the triangles that they have in their life and it could be that we're trying to de triangle. But we're looking for how to help somebody move or change or get more tools to deal with problems. One of the things we learn along the way is many of the people who might hear this will already know this, is that a lot of the problems you can't cure and you can't fix everything.

Mark: 03:07

And so it's an opportunity to do more than pastoral care. It's an opportunity to listen and lead people to talk about the things that maybe bothering them. I'll give you one example and that would be the couple that comes to talk about the child that's creating so many problems and you get the child in there with the family and you discover that the problem is not the child. The problem is the couple or somebody's relationship with their family. And the good news is you're able to tell little Johnny, there's nothing wrong with you.

Mark: 03:54

We're gonna help your mama though or we're gonna help your daddy though. And a lot of times that the healing mechanism can just be jumpstarted by therapy. So in my opinion, the difference in between pastoral care and pastoral therapy is a lot of times in pastoral care you might have a set number of visits you might be willing to do with a premarital counseling. And you might say, I require all of the people I married to meet at least three times. But some of those will be just quick hits.

Mark: 04:32

They probably won't explore the family makeup. It'll just more or less touch on some personalities. Whereas family therapy or pastoral therapy will perhaps pick up on the fact that somebody in the marriage has been married before. And what happened with that? When did that happen?

Mark: 04:57

And so it gives a much broader ministry that can help people and the counseling can be an unlimited thing if the pastor has time to take that on. So I think in my particular circumstance, I don't intend to be the pastoral therapist that hangs a shingle on the corner and everybody's welcome. I see it more as a expansion of my ministry as a pastor, long term minister, to help more people in a more in-depth way.

T. J.: 05:35

Why would a person want to receive therapy or seek out therapy, kind of in the church institution setting? Because therapy is available in in many different venues and spaces. So is there a distinction between pastoral therapy and then maybe a therapy that you might get in a clinic or a hospital or a private practice?

Mark: 06:09

Yes, I think there's a distinct difference in the fact that if this person is part of your church family, you've had the exposure as the minister to see their family, to see them interact with others. You may know a lot of history about them, but the people who come to me or a pastoral therapist, they're wanting this to be part of their faith journey. They're wanting to make sense of their things that they're concerned about as part of their faith, as part of their Christian heritage. And so I think that the minister is at a clear advantage in the fact that he or she may be able to have much more knowledge about this person that if you went to a private therapy, it may take a long time just to get to that point. And so a lot of times in private therapy, for example, what you share, what's drawn out and you share, that's your snapshot as the counselor's looking.

Mark: 07:30

We have this unique placement where we see whether they are active in church or not. We see if they participate in a variety of things. We see what some of their gifts are and talents, and we see their family that might not ever go with them into a private setting. So I think the clergy is in a very unique situation to help people in a much more personal basis right off the bat.

T. J.: 08:00

There is that line between seeking therapy from a professional where we only have a certain allotted amount of time per week

Mark: 08:11

Mhmm.

T. J.: 08:11

And then be able to step away. And there's some freedom in there, maybe even some safety that I'm not gonna run into you, or the odds of running into you, you know, at the grocery store or in other settings, a ballgame. But in a pastoral therapy, it sounds like you as the counselor, you as the therapist, you you're part of other realms and circles of my life. That can be both good and bad.

Mark: 08:42

I agree with that. And so I think the pastoral therapist has to have a clear understanding of what they're willing to take on and also know when to help somebody with a referral to someone else. I've had that happen in multiple settings. Of course, being two years into this three year program, a lot of it is affirmation and new knowledge academically and from lectures and whatnot. Things that I've been practicing for a long time, but not as a doctoral type work.

Mark: 09:29

And what people, academia people like John Patton would say that ministers should probably put a three to five visit cap on how many times they would see somebody in their church. And the primary purpose for that, he would say, is that we just don't have time. We absolutely don't have time. But then I think there's also the person that might come to me and want to talk to me about the spouse, but they don't want the spouse to come in and they're both members of your church and then there's an awkward thing. So what I say to them in those circumstances, if I'm not able to get to like this one does, I've had this actually happen where this one doesn't want the other one to know that they're in counseling or they want them to know it's in counseling, but I'm not allowed to say what it's about.

Mark: 10:35

And it's about the other person. And in those types of settings, if I'm not able to get everybody together on the same page, then I pray with them and I try to give them a few tools but I actually find a referral and make the phone call. I have even driven people to the first appointment with someone else because it's appropriate that they get help, but I'm not the guy. And maybe it's outside my expertise, but there's also this risk that you run, that you alienate people in your church. And that's something you have to watch out for.

Mark: 11:16

So to summarize it, yes, I agree you have to be careful, time restraints you may have to limit it. And another thing I recently have done at the suggestion of professors and part of the program is I've transformed my pastoral office, which was more administrative for half the office to be safe sanctuary type space. If you went to any counseling office you'd probably see a couch, two chairs and lamps and coffee table in a very pleasant setting. I've done that and transformed the office and so now people come in and they make themselves comfortable and I have to watch the time. So it's just like preaching, know, I'm watching the clock if I run over, know, but I'm watching the counseling time, not because of feasts, because I don't charge fees to my church family.

Mark: 12:16

I'm watching the clock because I know that one hour is like a church service. It just gets to the point where you're repeating and it's not as effective. And so I don't want somebody to sit there for two hours when we were just as effective in an hour and fifteen minutes. But it it both settings, I'm watching the clock a little bit.

T. J.: 12:40

So the boundaries are really important. Boundaries of time, boundaries of your own abilities and limitations. Boundaries are extremely important in pastoral therapy.

Mark: 12:57

Absolutely. Also in the church setting or any pastoral setting, I always wanna make sure somebody else is in the building and hopefully right across the hall. You want your confidentiality, but you also want a safe space for the counselor. And so that's something that's very important. One thing different in private therapy that's probably better than pastoral therapy is the anonymity perhaps of people that come to the office.

Mark: 13:37

When it's a church person, then people will know that someone so's car is sitting outside the church door, right? And so there needs to be an openness with no indication that people are there to, could be there to do any kind of counseling. And for people to view it in the church as something helpful and to be applauded that people are looking for good wholeness and good mental health as opposed to, I wonder what they're in there for. Right? And so that's something that is necessary to cultivate.

T. J.: 14:27

Yeah. And I think it's human nature to think both. Mhmm. Oh, I recognize the car. It's attached to person x.

T. J.: 14:40

I want them to be healthy because I know who that person is. I want them to heal and have good relationships. And I wonder what they're in the church for. I think we can do both. I think we I think it's human nature to do both.

Mark: 14:58

But when you're seeing the pastor We could be talking about visitation. I mean, we could talk about, you know, anything.

T. J.: 15:04

That's true.

Mark: 15:05

And so I don't put a sign up saying, you know, like Lucy used to do on peanuts and say the doctors in, you know, bring your nickel. And so I make my own appointments and I set the times. I make it unlike the private counselor that's probably doing it four or five days a week, certain time frame of the day, I do mine more as needed. Now if somebody calls and I sense urgency then I try to make that something that I can do that day or the next day. But if I am starting a relationship and I don't hear the sense of urgency, then I'll look at the calendar and I'll conveniently book it at times that are convenient with me.

Mark: 15:57

Because as a pastor, I'm not doing the counseling full time because I don't have time, right? And that's different too.

T. J.: 16:07

You're in your final year, usually in a program, an educational program, there's some sort of thesis or project that you have to complete. So do you have one of those? And what is it?

Mark: 16:23

Well, my project is clergy care for Conan Presbyterian ministers. So having been someone that's always cared about the clergy, my dad was a minister, I've always been in that ministry family. And I think my grandfather was somewhat of a lay preacher looking at my great grandmother's diaries. It sure seemed like he was, but I don't think he was ever ordained. But he taught the men's Bible class and occasionally filled a pulpit and he was an elder and different things.

Mark: 17:02

So I think that there's just a lot of care that I've always had. And even in my business life, I looked to the care of ministers. So one of the things I wanted to do was enhance one particular area. And in the doctorate ministry program, it's a project rather than a thesis. And with that project, what I'm wanting to do is I'm wanting to survey our church and find out why or how they can be more effectively taking care of their mental health.

Mark: 17:42

For example, we have in the denomination a program that people can utilize to receive up to eight visits per year by phone or FaceTime or in person for counseling services. And that's eight times per year per issue per household. Or so if there's two in your household, then you get twice that. If there's three in your household, you get three times that. And last year, for example, out of the hundreds of CPs plus their families, hundreds more that could have utilized the program, I believe last year without having the notes in front of me, there were 21 families that used them.

Mark: 18:33

21 times when there could have been a thousand, for example. So my surveys and material that I'm putting together would be why are you not using it? How would we get people to use it? And hopefully bring people to an understanding that we will use it. And so I am seeking the help of our pastoral development ministry team and Pam Phillipsburg, using Jen Newell and asking if I can be of help as they can be of help and putting things together in joint work with the purpose being of how can we come to a better sense of caring for the common Presbyterian clergy for mental health.

Mark: 19:25

And that's a long way of saying it. And all this is heating up right now because of the timing of the general assembly that's meeting in Knoxville, is my hometown for now. I grew up in Memphis, but I've been here most of my adult life. And because they're coming to town, I'm hoping that it will stimulate opportunities to encourage our ministers to complete surveys. There's one going out into the marketplace today.

Mark: 20:00

They'll see it on the Six Roads till Sunday, the link. And I sent you the link in an email, you've got it there if there's a way to include that link in this podcast. But basically that's our starting point is getting CP ministers to complete the survey and then there'll be more to follow-up after that.

T. J.: 20:25

Yeah, I'd be interested to know what are the barriers that ministers throw up preventing from accessing, you know, care, mental health care, you know, is it can't be financial with the particular program and what you're mentioning. Right. Is it embarrassment? Is it trust? I'll be interested to see the results of the of the survey of what what those barriers are, what the stigmas are.

T. J.: 21:05

Because then once we label them, once we name them, then we're able to kinda either break those barriers down or find workarounds.

Mark: 21:16

If we can name the silences, I think that as Stanley Nawain wrote a book about that, if we can name the silences, I believe that it's a starting point for us to receive help or at least recommend help. But I don't wanna say too much about what I think because somebody may be looking at this or hearing this and hasn't done the survey yet. I would encourage that if you haven't done the survey, it's like voting. We can't do anything if you don't vote. Everybody needs to vote.

Mark: 21:58

Everybody needs to do the survey. And there's a certain number of people that have to respond for it to be, it raises the accountability of accuracy. So if we have only 15% response, then the information we receive is not as accurate as if we receive a 60% response. And so it is important that everybody answer that survey and then hopefully it will help us decide how to make those improvements.

T. J.: 22:37

On average, how long does it take to complete the survey?

Mark: 22:40

Ten minutes.

T. J.: 22:42

Okay.

Mark: 22:43

Yeah, it's a quick survey. It's I think a dozen questions. There's could be 15 questions. So I did this in conjunction with the Eliza Woolsey Foundation or preaching initiative that Jen Newell is doing. She's looking for information very similar to what I'm looking for, for different reasons.

Mark: 23:13

And where one of her focus is gonna be is clergy care for the next bit. And I'm looking specifically for clergy care mental health benefits. And so we've combined the questions and some of us, the two of us have some joint questions that we both agree on. And then there's a few in there that are just really for her and a few in there just for me. And, but that will come out today and be available through, I believe a few days after general assembly.

Mark: 23:51

I think the cutoff might be the following week. And so that's the time frame, but it won't take ten minutes to complete it.

T. J.: 24:02

Alright. Alright. Mark, you mentioned earlier that you come from a line of Cumberland Presbyterians and churchgoers. What is the earliest memory that you have, that is faith based, whether it's about God or church, what would be the earliest memory that you can recall?

Mark: 24:34

Well, we grew up in the church at a time where church was everything. We were in a community. We lived in a manse across the street from the church. We were at the church literally every time the doors opened, and back in that day there was church on Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday nights. You had breakfasts during Lent.

Mark: 25:12

Your baseball, basketball, everything you did, Boy Scouts, was through the church. And so we were on church teams and church leagues and parents bowled in a church league. We were, everything we did live and breathe in church. And so I was connected to Cumberland Presbyterian by birth and never questioned God, never questioned faith, going to church, all that felt very good to me. I can remember going to revivals with my dad, and there were four children, the youngest two were six, seven years younger than me.

Mark: 26:09

But I can remember going to revivals that were popular when I was a boy when the rest of my family wouldn't go. And so I always wanted to go. And it was during a revival when I was nine that we had a evangelist at the church speaking and on a Friday night and I remember hearing Have Thine On Way, Lord song and I'm trembling all over and I excused myself and got stepped over all the other eight, nine, 10 year olds that were all together on the pew. And I went up and gave my life to Christ. So it's been a journey of faith that I had no major crossing to do.

Mark: 27:09

I was, I felt early on that I would be a minister. In fact, I remember telling my grandmother that I was gonna be a minister when I was only about 12. And I don't know if she told my parents or not, but my parents never talked to me about that. They kind of let me do my own thing. As we became 15, 16 years old, my dad moved from Memphis to Knoxville.

Mark: 27:45

And I wasn't quite sure where Knoxville was. And I don't think I had Tennessee history yet, you know, I just knew it was somewhere way away. And so it was a time before cell phones. It was a time before long distance calls were expensive. I was, you know, and no internet.

Mark: 28:09

And so when we moved, it was very hurtful leaving a youth group of 50 people and going to a church that the youth group was my sister and me and a few other people, but not very many and not active at that, going from a suburban church to a downtown church. And everything was different, it was as different as walking to school, as having to ride a bus. So it was day and night different and I thought at that time, I never wanna be a preacher, if I'm gonna have to do that to my family. And it was actually about twelve years later, was 28 when I finally yielded to the call to go into the ministry. And I always knew that that was what I wanted to do.

Mark: 29:07

I emulated my dad, he was the most influential of me and my faith journey. I just soaked up everything, I remembered sermons, I was probably the most outspoken in Sunday school, except for Janet, if you're out there. Janet, you talked a lot, but I liked everything you said. But church was always normal and I never have gotten away from the church. Even the time that I wasn't living at home, my wife and I both have always gone to church and been active in our faith journey.

T. J.: 29:49

When you were growing up and then both your your father and your mother were very active

Mark: 29:56

Right.

T. J.: 29:57

In the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. What were those conversations like around the kitchen table? Because I've noticed in in my own life, we have faith conversations, you know, may even be about scriptures and what it means to be a disciple. But there's also conversations about the life of the church, you know, almost the administrative side or the the people side. So what was that environment like, for you?

T. J.: 30:30

Were were there faith conversations in the home, or was the church life separated from the home life?

Mark: 30:39

Separated to some degree. You're right, my mother was certainly involved as well. And she would say, if I was talking about priorities of I've got to do this for school, I've got to do this for church, here's something happening at the church, but I've got this school conflict. Unless we were on deathbed, we were expected to go to church. And if we had to stay up late to do our school project, we did.

Mark: 31:15

So she was adamant about that. It's interesting around the table, a lot of times growing up, we were quite, we always ate together, dinner, I remember dinner just every night you didn't go out that much, there weren't that many places to go early on and I doubt my dad could afford to take us many places, but it took a lot of time and effort to take out six people and money. And mother was a great cook and we sat down and dad would, many years, pull out an upper room and read a devotional. And then he'd let the older children, me and my sister, take turns or mother reading the devotional, he'd pass it on and we read everything including the prayer. But the funny thing was, as I looked back that mother was frustrated.

Mark: 32:18

In fact, I'm this way now when I cook, which not very often, but I do cook some and when I have it ready, I wanna sit down and eat right then. It's all ready, it's hot, it's ready, it's right now. And you know my wife might think of three things she has to do real quick, right? And I'm trying to count to 10, know, I don't wanna get upset, but I think it dates back to my mother because we would sit down at the table and everything's piping hot and we serve the food on the table and it would be in front of us family style to pass bowls around. And then we'd have this devotional that took five minutes and mother sometimes would look awfully exasperated like I worked so hard to get this on the table.

Mark: 33:07

As far as conversations, especially Sunday afternoon conversations, usually a roast was in the oven or something and we have a fun Sunday afternoon lunch. But the conversation was primarily between my mother and dad who would talk about the people that were there or not there. And I still remember one of the greatest in-depth discussions was about the first time a woman wore pants to church. And my mother was just thought that was the worst thing that she'd ever seen in her life. And who was that?

Mark: 33:46

Yeah, did you see her? And I can't believe that they did that. And so those were some of the conversations of just kind of deprogramming of what happened. Well, I didn't see so and so that day. And I noticed someone so was there and that's bled over to me a lot of times on Sundays.

Mark: 34:10

I'm processing stuff like that to myself, not so much over a dinner table. We typically go out to lunch on Sunday and probably as a way to kinda do a break from one thing to the next. But, so a lot of the conversation was not so much family order, it was just a family way of doing things of dad would give a monologue, mother would give a monologue, not much dialogue and talking about what had happened that day. And it could be as simple as, well, we thought that the anthem went well, the music went well. All my family sang, My dad sang, mother sang and played the piano in Oregon.

Mark: 35:00

My siblings all sang, we're all still in choirs. And it was always a big deal. And there was more gathering around it. For me, I don't remember my siblings as much, but they could have done that without me there. But there was a lot going on when my mother played the piano.

Mark: 35:21

I would go and stand at the piano and sing anything she'd play. And so there was a lot of music in the home and that was one of my early memories of doing all that.

T. J.: 35:32

Are you the eldest of the siblings?

Mark: 35:36

No, oldest son, but I have a sister that's twenty one months ahead of me, one year ahead of me in school. Okay. And so I wasn't the oldest. Right.

T. J.: 35:46

Alright. Why the ministry? Because you've had that opportunity. You had those kitchen table and living room discussions of the wonderful family that is found in the community of faith. But sometimes it's that family that also can hurt the minister, the minister's family.

T. J.: 36:12

And I know it's hit and miss of the people that I know. Some have been attracted, and and it seems to be sort of in the blood in terms of calling into ministry, some type of vocation. And then others are just completely repelled and may not even be active in any faith community or any church. What was it for you, Mark, that attracted you and initiated your call and kept that fire burning into your late twenties?

Mark: 36:45

Well, as I said, we were quite active in church. My company that I worked for moved me to Huntsville, Alabama. And that was a pleasant move. We were in still Tennessee Valley. Going to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church there, I was known as David and not Mark.

Mark: 37:15

And it didn't take very long for us to join and become active in a church that was going to be a PCUSA church that was going to be part of the church to start a tri union church back then the Presbyterian still had northern and southern Presbyterians. I hadn't joined yet and they were going to have a tri union church with the Cumberland Church near our house. And we thought, we'll start here in the PCUSA and then we'll move to this union church, tri union church. We ended up being just a union church by the time that that happened. Almost immediately, know, we hadn't been members more than a month or two when I found out that nominations were being received for Deacon and that I was nominated for Deacon.

Mark: 38:13

Well, I had a couple of elders that showed up at my house to say, Who are you? And I said, What do you mean? Well, you've been nominated to be a deacon and we don't even know who you are. I mean, you've joined the church and then they had 500, six hundred members and I was brand new in the community practically and a young guy in my 20s. And so I started telling them a little bit about my faith and whatnot and my background.

Mark: 38:43

And they're like, well, was a God thing. But in the church, became a deacon. I was a treasurer. I was a Sunday school teacher. Sang in the choir.

Mark: 38:57

Everything I would do, it wasn't enough. I just couldn't get enough of doing church stuff. And the funny thing is that when my wife and I married, she knew that I was called to be a preacher. I mean, she sensed it, she had good insight. And I assured her I'd never do that.

Mark: 39:18

That wasn't something that I would do, I'd already said no to that. So a lot of things kept happening and then she challenged me and said, you know God's calling you to be a preacher. And I'm like, but I don't wanna do it. And I was happy in business and my dad had huge shoes to fill and I didn't really want to do anything besides Cumberland Presbyterian. I wanted to be in the Cumberland Presbyterian church.

Mark: 39:46

And a lot of neat things were happening. I could take a long time to tell you about many affirmations of my call that I had to do it. But the one that I will tell you is that I had to first move my membership back to the Culmer Presbyterian Church. And so we drove up to Knoxville, told my parents, and we made a plan for me to come meet with the committee on the ministry on a Friday night before a presbytery meeting, and then at presbytery I would be presented to be received as a candidate.

T. J.: 40:37

All right, so really that close, Friday night, eleventh and then Saturday was the presbytery meeting.

Mark: 40:45

Right, right, so now my wife is, we had a child about four, and she's great with child. I mean she is like, this happened the October 1 for that presbytery meeting and second baby was born October 10. So she's great with child. And so we're at my parents' house and my parents are both passed, so I don't mind saying that they kept the house too hot at night. Okay, I'm just saying, oh my goodness.

Mark: 41:25

And so we're relegated to one of my sister's bedroom staying in my parents' house and there's a crib in there that our four year old was able to sleep in. So he's in the bed now, we're on central time and we've come back to Eastern. My parents have gone to bed. Sally's pregnant, can't sleep. She's in there reading.

Mark: 41:49

I'm in the bed tossing and turning. I've met with the committee on the ministry and that night on Friday night, they're pushing me on the committee on the ministry about my call. And I said, well, I had been called to administrate. I've been called to teach. I've been called to maybe go into missions.

Mark: 42:10

I've been called to do all these things. And what about called to preach? And I said, I've not been called to preach. I don't think I'm gonna preach. Right?

Mark: 42:20

And they're hemming and hawing and they said, well, we think that that'll come and we're gonna recommend you. So I'm laying in the bed and need to get to sleep because I'm getting up early to drive to Presbyterian and as I'm laying there there's a light coming in through a cracked door, my wife's down the hall, my parents are across the hall asleep in their room. There's a light in the hallway that's still on, my door's cracked to my sister's bedroom, Got a kid sleeping over here, pregnant wife down the hall, all this stuff's emotionally in my mind. And I look over and laying on the side table is my mother's New Testament from Gideon that she got at some school event when she was a kid in the thirties, right? And I picked it up and I just kind of flipped it open and it fell open to first Timothy four.

Mark: 43:23

And it had two different columns but reading straight across these verses aren't together. But in the way I held them in the light of the door and held the Bible at an angle it read, go preach, tell Mark I have need of him. How about I fell out of bed? And so I told that story the next day at presenter and I said, I take it back, I've been called to preach. He even used my name.

T. J.: 43:56

Yeah, is certainly a big affirmation.

Mark: 43:59

Yeah, yeah. And so, then I was off and running with preaching and the other thing that was a major event was that I found myself in interim ministry. And so I served the church as a state of supply for two years while I was in school. And then I went back into business and then I started doing interims and pulpit supply. And it felt very natural and good.

Mark: 44:38

Now I had my father at that point has gone to the seminary as president at MTS. And so he is just as disgruntled about my path as anybody because I'm called to be a full time minister. You know, I must be like a Jonah. And you know, I'm running from the Lord. And I said, I'm doing ministry.

Mark: 44:59

And I was being effective with serving in many different churches and I felt very good about that. And I continued on my interim journey. And I guess it was probably twenty years into doing that before my dad finally said one time that he thought that I was doing the right thing. I was well, it's good to know dad, thank you very much. But another time I was wondering about my calling.

Mark: 45:27

One of the things I always thought about was this thing about being full time business part time clergy. And now later in life, God seemed to it that I could retire from business and be full time clergy in my retirement years, which is great. But I remember somewhere along the way, a lot of ways, a lot of the times I'm looking at myself as, am I not doing the right thing? Because I should be full time pastor, part time business. And I never wanted the business to be a lure of making more money, having more freedom, doing more things differently.

Mark: 46:04

And so I would always angst over that not constantly, but I would And many of the churches I'd served as an interim, they'd say, well why don't you stay and be our minister? And I'd be, I'd have to, you know, wrestle through that again, you know? And

T. J.: 46:22

So you had those reminders. If it wasn't, if you didn't bring it up mentally yourself, was a Yeah.

Mark: 46:30

So one day I'm at lunch with Gene Richardson and he was about my dad's age and sometimes you can talk differently to people that aren't family so closely connected. And so I shared with him my angst over my calling and being part time, full time, etcetera. And Gene, if you knew Gene, he had a way of laughing at things and kind of chuckled at me and kind of offended me at the same time. And I said, what is it? He said, well Mark, he says, how often do you pray for God's will?

Mark: 47:11

And I said, well, all the time. And he laughed again and he said, well, what makes you think you're not in it? And it was very satisfying that day. I was like, yeah, yeah, good point. It makes me think I'm not in it, right?

Mark: 47:28

And so that was a good affirmation too that I was doing the right thing. And even if I didn't fully understand it it it was what I did and it was good.

T. J.: 47:41

It's that comparison, comparing yourself to other colleagues in ministry, the understanding of what ministry is or the interpretation of what ministry is during that time and even currently today. Yeah. I can imagine you wearing something on your shoulders that probably didn't need to be there. There is the practicality of just being able to to make a living. And and being bi vocational has always been part of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, always.

T. J.: 48:24

Sure.

Mark: 48:27

Well, I liken myself to a Paul as far as being a tentmaker. In fact, that's what they call the bivocational tent making ministry, right? And so I think I did probably, I think I counted 17 interims.

T. J.: 48:45

Good grief.

Mark: 48:46

And those interims lasted up to a year at a time, and then I did a number of stated supplies, so I had a little bit of control, kind of like what I'm doing in counseling, of setting some parameters. So I went to a church that I felt like I wouldn't mind staying more than a year. I would come in as a state of supply. And then it enabled me to stay at one church five years, one church four years, one church three years.

T. J.: 49:25

But

Mark: 49:26

these were churches that just needed me part time. And I would always stay only the interim if I knew they needed a full time person. And because we worked very hard to find that full time person for them. When I came to Loudoun Church, which I'm delighted to be at, I had done, I only count them as one interim, but I did five different interims there.

T. J.: 50:04

Okay.

Mark: 50:04

Was the pastor between every minister for five ministers since 1989.

T. J.: 50:13

Now I wonder what that says.

Mark: 50:16

Well, they tried to get me to come and be their minister back in the 80s, late 80s, and I wrestled with that. I almost said yes, didn't say yes. In fact, when went back in 2016, I didn't take it as an interim, I took it as a state of supply thinking I may stay. Because they knew I would retire not long hence, maybe I could stay and be the pastor, and that's what's happened. And it's been good, but being there nine years, I tell them is not really true.

Mark: 51:04

I think if you add up all the interims, I've been there, you know, three or four years longer than that. And so I've gone through multi generations of people there. And I apologize to the man who was on the search committee, he's passed now since I've been there, but he was on the search committee that were very influential of wanting me to come back in the 80s. And I apologized to him, Bill was his name. I said, I'm sorry that I didn't take the church all those years ago because this is where I need to be.

Mark: 51:37

And he said, no, he said, this is where you need to be now. And we need you now. And it was very, again, affirming that he was able to take my personal feelings of wanting to be a part of that church sooner. But knowing that if I'd done that in the eighties chances are I wouldn't still be there. And this is the time that I was needed to be there.

Mark: 52:03

So I thought that was very wise and very comforting to hear. And so I believe God has his hands on all of us if we're willing to listen and search and continue to ask God for him to guide us. And then whatever we're in, why should we doubt we're not in God's will if everything seems to be falling into place?

T. J.: 52:31

What benefits do you think there are from a minister's perspective of doing an interim in lieu of stated supply or full time ministry, since you've done both?

Mark: 52:48

One thing about the interim is you're a member of every church and you're a member of none. So I would say that anybody who does look at an intentional interim which I didn't start out intending to do. I would suggest that first of all they find a home church that they don't agree to be an interim for. Because it's hard on the family As I dragged three kids with us everywhere we went. Now I can tell you they know every Southern Gospel song that's ever written because we sang them all the way church and back with great joy.

Mark: 53:33

In fact I love hearing my grandkids tell me that mom sings these songs you know and I'm like yeah yes I bet she does they're in her head. But I would say that an interim is able to come in with a critical eye and see things that a minister moving into the community might be slower to process. And because we're there for a shorter period of time, we might be able to address some things. I did things like change the bulletin and change the order of worship from time to time. I did some things intentionally because I felt like it would make the next person, anything that they changed would be like, well, we're glad somebody's put it back like it was or whatever, even if it wasn't, right?

Mark: 54:41

Also there's a sense of freedom in the fact that I'm not here because I need this job indefinitely. And so there's a freedom to be able to call it like it is and say what you wanna say. And I've got a day job if I need to go back, but it's a real opportunity to love people. And a lot of relationships I made with churches, I still have closeness to those churches and to those people. But yeah, I'd say as the interim, protect your family and just the confession of faith can be a tool to help you as well because it says you can only serve six months as an interim and you can renew it one time.

Mark: 55:38

And so when people when I was doing an interim said, we'd like you to stay. I'm like, I can't. And so I would use that in my favor and state of clerk leaves it open. And so when I came and said, I'll come clerk, not state of clerk, but state of supply. I knew what I was doing.

Mark: 55:58

I knew that I was allowing myself to stay longer if I wanted to. I do think one other thing I'll say is that undoubtedly serving as an interim pastor made me a better business professional and being a businessman made me a better pastor. And so for the bi vocational, it broadened my view and spectrum of being one of the people while I was leaving at the same time. So I felt like I was able to see things more clearly because of that experience.

T. J.: 56:42

Yeah. You were in the investment world, the financial world for a long time. What led you into retirement?

Mark: 56:57

Getting older, but I will say that when I looked at retirement from business, I had thought for many years and I don't know how long, but let's say twenty, a long time. I had prayed the prayer that if it was in God's will, I would like to retire from business at some point and be a full time pastor. And I wasn't waiting until the right church came along. I really aged out. I mean, so I retired in 2021 from business after forty four years.

Mark: 57:51

And I was at a place where I could transition that effectively because I had thousands of people that I cared for in that regard. It was like my congregation at work. And so I was in a good place to transition that. I probably would have done it a year or two earlier, but COVID hit. And all of a sudden I'm able to work from home and do my work effectively without having to travel as much.

Mark: 58:25

And so because of that, I think I extended it a couple of years. And so I set the date and that's what I wanted to do. In the meantime, I've been at the church working part time and increasing hours as I went along since 16. So they waited five years for me to fully retire, but now I'm full time at the church and I can't tell much difference between the time I was putting in part time and the time I'm putting in full time. It's just that I'm installed as a pastor now instead of being the status fly.

T. J.: 59:04

Right, right. Your focus has changed because, you know, you've shifted from the business world a little bit, but then you become a student. And you become full time at the Loudoun Cumberland Presbyterian Church. So it's not like you're doing less.

Mark: 59:24

Oh, no. It's kind of stuff.

T. J.: 59:27

Focus is different. And that's why I asked. It wasn't a loaded question. It was, you know, if you had a full plate already in the business world, what constituted that shift? Because hours per day, you're still filling it up with different activities.

Mark: 59:48

Well I'm a busy guy and I wouldn't know any other way to live except to be busy. Some of that might be genetics that are coming out of working a lot. And I think genetics sometimes, you mentioned earlier about ministers that run from a calling or run toward a calling, but I also think there's some like me that come back to it because the gene surface at different times of what probably is in your background. But I will say about schooling is that I'd always wanted to go back to school. I had taken a multitude of continuing ed in the financial world because I had to, To keep up and to have the credentials and the licensures and all the ability to do what I did, I had to go to a number of programs and get a lot of certifications.

Mark: 01:00:54

And I always had been in school and in training and just didn't have time to go back for religious training until I retired from business. And I told my wife, I said, wife, I said, I wanna go back to school. And so when I retired, she said, please wait a year, please wait a year. I thought that was great advice. So I waited a year after I retired.

Mark: 01:01:19

And then I called my friend Barry Anderson at the seminary who's since retired and said, Dean of Students at that time. And said, Barry, I wanna come back to school. What do you recommend I take? And he recommended I get in a DMN program. And I'm like, I don't want a doctorate.

Mark: 01:01:36

And he said, well, you've had so much of the other stuff. He says, there's a place for you in the doctoral program and you might really like it and yada yada yada. So I thought, well, I don't want a doctorate, but I'll sign up for the class. Well, I signed up for the class and found that I loved it and I seemed to be doing the right thing. And I will tell you that MTS is tricky in the DMIN program.

Mark: 01:02:11

They automatically sign you up for the next class. So I finished one and now all of sudden I'm in the second one. And then I finished it and I'm in the third one, I'm in the fourth. And so now I am in July taking the last of those academic classes and with nothing left except to work. If the dean's listening night and day on my project until it's complete.

Mark: 01:02:40

But it's been a journey, an adventure, and it seemed like a great fit for me. I found my people, if you will, this enables me to continue to serve the church. And there could be a time, I'm sure there will be a time when lot will realize that they've got an old preacher and they need somebody with my experience that's half my age. And perhaps I'll be able to continue serving the church as a therapist. And so I felt like it was a good fit that's how it happened.

T. J.: 01:03:25

Mark, our conversation has kinda gone full circle. Excuse me. It's gone full circle. We started with the doctorate of ministry program, and now we're kind of back to it, back to present tense. Looking over your life and thinking about your faith, when have you felt nearest to God?

Mark: 01:03:55

Well, I'd say right off the bat that preparation for sermons. I love that. Every minister, every Christian person should be spending a lot of time in the Bible. I found that when I'm doing a teaching class, preaching a sermon, whatever, I am more in the word than when I'm not teaching or preaching. And I usually am thinking one, two, three weeks ahead of what I'm going to preach.

Mark: 01:04:49

I love looking at the lectionary every week. I read all the scriptures in the lectionary every week. I usually rely on the spirit to lead me into which scripture I'm gonna preach on. I don't always use lectionary, but I primarily do.

T. J.: 01:05:10

And

Mark: 01:05:12

when I feel led to do a particular scripture, I'm already outlining it in my head and writing some things down. And I do that a week, two, three ahead of time. And then that particular week, I do a lot of reflection. After I reflect and write my own thoughts and outline and lay out my thoughts on it. Then I love going to books.

Mark: 01:05:49

I'm still a book guy, and I don't search for it on the computer. I have a great library, I'll go to my favorite references and read what these people have to say about it. And then I take notes and reflect, so that when I sat down to write a sermon, I've had all the fun. And it's been enriching and rewarding. I feel really good about that.

Mark: 01:06:25

And then of course the sermon writes itself, you know, with all that prep in there. Of course some weeks I'm not able to give it as much time as others. Some weeks I don't pull a resource book out because it's all there, or maybe it's in storytelling form. But another thing that makes me feel real close to God is going to sleep, praying every night. It's very similar to how I started off praying as a child before I went to bed.

Mark: 01:07:04

And it's just very calming and my wife is jealous that I can go to sleep really fast. But that's my secret is that when I lay down to sleep, I'm laying myself down to sleep, know. And so that's a very close encounter. And you know from being in ministry, there's so many meaningful experiences with God. One thing fun at this church is that because I've been there so many times as an interim, I am leading people to Christ of kids whose parents came to Christ while I was there before and knowing their grandparents and having this multi generational connect.

Mark: 01:07:59

I think that's all very special too, is being able to have some small part in the development of people's life and their Christian faith journey. I think that's very impactful and very humbling to be part of that.

T. J.: 01:08:15

Yeah. It's one of the only, if not the only, vocations or callings that allows us to have the ability to share and have access with all aspects of an individual or a family's life. It isn't just those appointments where you schedule things, but it is the joys and the sorrows, all of it. And, yeah, a physician doesn't have that an attorney doesn't have that a therapist doesn't have that. Maybe even neighbors don't have that or even other family members.

T. J.: 01:08:59

It's a very unique calling. It's a very unique profession.

Mark: 01:09:06

And as I've been told in years past by many, if you're called you really can't do anything else.

T. J.: 01:09:15

That's what I've come to understand by doing this, by having Cumberland Road.

Mark: 01:09:22

So it's not work to me. I mean, went to work for forty four years in business, but when I go to church, I'm going to church. I'm not going to work. I used to leave notes to my wife and say, I'm gone to work and here's where I'll be today or I'm gonna, know, this is my schedule if I'm in another state working or whatever. But now if I leave a note that I'm going to the church, I'm not really going to work.

Mark: 01:10:00

I'm just going to church. So it feels very good, very enriching. And I don't tell my church, but I would do it for nothing. Because it's not work to me. And I'm just giving back what's been given to me, and it's a privilege.

Mark: 01:10:21

Mark,

T. J.: 01:10:24

you have a scope and a perspective on church and specifically with the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Looking into the future, what hopes do you have for the denomination?

Mark: 01:10:41

Well, what hopes? Well, I hope it's always the church of Jesus Christ. And I hope that we always find the will of God to lead us and not let it be our will. So I have always been one of embracing medium theology. And I remember when Forrest Prosser was a moderator some years ago and he gave a message on medium theology and I thought he did an excellent job.

Mark: 01:11:27

I think we were in Chattanooga at the time. And I thought he did an excellent job of talking about how a needle in the middle doesn't mean we're stuck in the middle. And how we're able to go to one side or the other as needed, and we can center back in the middle. And I like that imagery, and I think about that a lot. And I think that our church the church throughout many denominations are struggling with trying to move that needle further to the right or further to the left.

Mark: 01:12:10

When I believe that Jesus died with all sinners. And I believe that Jesus could be more than stuck in the middle. And yet, I think he still would bring everything back to a centralized place in service to God. So what I'd like to see is if I could, wave a wand that doesn't exist and say, let's do this. I can admire people who are passionate about their faith.

Mark: 01:12:51

I have people in my church who are passionate way progressive. Passionate way conservative. And I love them both. And I respect them both. And I admire their passion.

Mark: 01:13:07

But I don't want to do things that alienate either one. And so I'd like to see our church be more loving with praying together what God's will is without excluding extremes. Mark,

T. J.: 01:13:28

what have we missed in our conversation that we haven't talked about yet that you'd like to share before we conclude? Conclude is such a strong word. I feel like conversations can always be ongoing. But before we part ways, what did we miss? What questions did I not ask that you wanted an opportunity to speak to?

Mark: 01:13:58

Well, I don't know what they would be. I appreciate the time to talk about the DMIN project for a doctorate that I didn't really want. But I believe this is God's path for me right now, is to do this. I will say that since I have been taking an approach of intentional counseling, And since I have created an environment of safe sanctuary and safe space for people to come, I have seen my counseling time increase a lot. And I did not know that there was so much need in my particular church that once I turned it on, I haven't tried to turn it off or slow it down, I'm just letting it happen.

Mark: 01:15:13

But I remember in the process, our assignment is that we have to have at least fifty hours of supervised counseling where people, where we talk to someone about the people that we're seeing, not so much the people, but just to talk about how we handled it and what we learned and how we applied it and all this kind of stuff. And I remember my wife saying 50 people. How will you ever get 50 people? Well, that's not a problem. And so many people are coming.

Mark: 01:15:49

So I feel like that when we continue to learn, continue to pray for God's will, continue to place ourselves out there in service, that when we pray God send us somebody that we can minister to, he will. And so I feel like I'm in the middle of God's grace and mercy and service doing things that I never thought I'd be doing just simply because I was willing to go take a class. And so I would challenge people to be willing to step out of the norm and break the paradigm and try something different, and who knows, it could be God leading you on a new path.

T. J.: 01:16:33

Mark, how did you make that shift for the people at Loudoun specifically, who'd known you for years, known you as an interim, known you as being bi vocational, knowing you as stated supply. How did you articulate that shift that yes, I am those things. And, I also want to add the ability to spend time with you in a therapeutic session?

Mark: 01:17:06

Well, I may know, I wasn't trying to hide anything from going to school. I didn't broadcast it, but the elders all knew, the session knew, family knew, people would ask me why am I going back to school and what are you doing and all this stuff and conversation was out there. But when I had transitioned the office, I had some ladies in the church who were very helpful in making that happen with making it look good and appropriate. And at the same time I ran announcements in our newsletter that I was taking people in for counseling and this is what I was doing with school. And though I had been counseling for all of my ministry, this is a different level of counseling that was now available through academics and learning and intentional type of therapy, etcetera.

Mark: 01:18:10

And I've had people come in to talk nothing but religion. And I've had other people come in to talk to me about their broken families, dysfunction this, triangle that, health, whatever it might be. And so it kind of opened the door. So I ran that ad maybe once in one month, once the next month, and then word-of-mouth. And it seems to be very effective.

Mark: 01:18:39

Now one of my elders said to me, as he was helping take the table out of my office and put the couch in the office, said, and he's a friend and he's about my age. And he says, well, he says, my wife and I may wanna come talk to you. And I said, that'd be great. He says, but we're gonna wait till you get more experience. And so I've taken it all with a grain of salt and if I can help, I'm ready.

Mark: 01:19:16

I have more tools available than ever before to help you. And yet I'm not keeping a list of who's been in and who's not, And so it's just making people aware that this is something that I can do and will do. And I've even had a few refer me to somebody outside our church in the community to call me who didn't wanna talk to their own minister. And so I've had a few of those that happened and that doesn't bother me either at this point. But that's how it happened.

Mark: 01:19:50

Just was transparent with who I am and what I'm doing.

T. J.: 01:19:57

Mark, I appreciate your time. I appreciate you sharing me sharing with me your your journey, and, it was interesting to be able to come full circle. We kinda came full circle twice in one conversation, which is always enjoyable. Especially for your time.

Mark: 01:20:17

I really appreciate it. Interest in in facilitating this and making it happen. So thank you.

T. J.: 01:20:26

Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road. I hope you find this podcast both enjoyable and insightful and helps you connect with others to have deep faith conversations. In closing, here's a quote from Paul Tillich in his book Dynamics of Faith. If faith is understood as belief, that is something is true. Doubt is incompatible with the act of faith. If faith is understood as being ultimately concerned, doubt is necessary. It is the consequence of the risk of faith. Thanks for listening.