Mary Kathryn Kirkpatrick - I Want To Go Wherever You Want Me To Go
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. This is the Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. Today, Mary Kathryn Kirkpatrick joins me on this episode. Mary Katherine is the minister at the Jefferson Cumberland Presbyterian Church. She's been there for a little over a year. She was ordained to the word and the sacraments almost ten years ago. You have a ordination anniversary coming up later this year. I do. Her first call was at the Marshall Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Marshall, Texas, and she was there for about ten years.
T.J.:Mary Kathryn, thank you for joining me in this wintery months of February as we were recovering from I think a lot of people are calling the snow apocalypse.
Mary Kathryn:Snowpocalypse is or snowmageddon. I've heard I've heard both of those.
T.J.:I'm glad you were able to join me in the early months of '20 '20 '1. How about that?
Mary Kathryn:Alright. I like that. Me too.
T.J.:Well, speaking of survival and early in the year, I I like beginning these conversations with asking, can you recall an early encounter with God?
Mary Kathryn:Doctor. Yes, I have. My parents always took me to church and I was baptized before I was aware that I was baptized. And my first memory is I was five or six years old and I had this recurring dream. I was being chased by a couple of people across a field and I was scared to death.
Mary Kathryn:And I saw a storm cellar doors. I opened them up and ran down into this storm cellar, which ended up being a maze. And I'm running through the maze trying to find a place to hide. And I see this room and there's Jesus in the room. So I ran into the room and Jesus said, Don't be afraid, I'm here.
Mary Kathryn:And my dream ended. And this happened three times when I was little. Well, that got my attention. That really got my attention, but I didn't know what it meant. I'm still not sure what it means.
Mary Kathryn:And then I remember, I think we were United Methodist when I was youngest. I was about age 10 and I had been through the class and I remember I was at the communion railing because we took communion at the railing. And I had this mysterious warm feeling like the presence of the Holy Spirit. It It got my attention. And then as soon as I was old enough to be in the youth group, we had moved.
Mary Kathryn:We moved a lot when I was growing up, a lot. We lived in Atlanta, Georgia at the 10 old communion experience. And then we moved to Memphis and we went to Balmoral Presbyterian Church. It was the very beginning of Balmoral. And then we moved to Indianapolis and we went to Second Presbyterian Church there.
Mary Kathryn:And I was in this youth weekend retreat and we're sitting around this room and the pastor was in the middle, his name was Arnie. Arnie was standing in the middle talking to us and all of a sudden Arnie started glowing. And I thought, Woah, that's weird. And I looked around to see if anybody else noticed anything different and nobody seemed to notice anything. I looked back at Arnie and I heard, this is what you're going to do.
Mary Kathryn:And I remember looking up like, is that you? Or is that me? Am I making this up or is God talking to me? Remember that and I thought, yeah, right. So I have all these unusual experiences, I think, with the Holy Spirit as a youth and a child and didn't know what to do with them.
Mary Kathryn:Thought, I started college, I thought, perhaps I was supposed to be a pastoral counselor, because people talked to me, they trusted me, and I thought maybe that's what I'm supposed to do. So I majored in psychology to start with at Purdue University, and I hated it. I didn't care who thought up some, I didn't care. Like, what does this have to do with anything? And after a year, I made all A's, but I didn't care.
Mary Kathryn:And so I changed my major to management. But my heart really wasn't in it. I finished and I got married before I finished summer between junior and senior year. And I graduated and went into the business world, ended up in investment services. I was with Merrill Lynch for twenty years.
Mary Kathryn:And I'll just say about after I'd been with Merrill Lynch fifteen or so, fifteen, sixteen years, I was doing really well. I was president of my Rotary Club. Things were going well in my professional life. I just had this sense that God wanted me to do something else. I didn't know what else because this was what I knew.
Mary Kathryn:And understood it so thoroughly and I couldn't imagine what else God wanted me to do. And I really wrestled with that feeling for a long time. Well, right before that time, we actually changed churches. We lived in Marshall, Texas, and we started going to Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Marshall. And I didn't even know that that was a separate denomination.
Mary Kathryn:Thought the name of the church was Cumberland Presbyterian We
T.J.:are a quiet renegade bunch, aren't we?
Mary Kathryn:Yes. I ended up going to triennium in 2004 as an adult participant because I that's where I went to college. I went to Purdue, and that's where triennium is held every three years. So I I drove the church van, which was an experience, and just participated in everything. Went to worship, went to small groups.
Mary Kathryn:I knew the campus, so the first couple days I could help direct people when they were lost. It was a really great experience for me. But this is what happened there. During a small group, the small group leader asked us to pray. She said, I want you to close your eyes and envision Jesus.
Mary Kathryn:Well, I've done this before, But this time Jesus wasn't standing on a hillside like he normally is in my vision. His face was right in front of mine. And he was looking at me with great concern. And I remember thinking, I don't deserve that. Why is he looking at me like that?
Mary Kathryn:I don't deserve that. And then the small group leader said, ask Jesus what's on your heart. And I thought, well, this has got to be good. I've got to come up with a good question. All I could think to ask and what I asked was, what do you want me to do about my job?
Mary Kathryn:And I heard work for me, work for me, work for me three times. And it scared me to death. Because, you know, you make excuses when when you hear things like that. My first excuse was, I'm too old to go to seminary. I was 46.
Mary Kathryn:I'm too old to go to seminary. What can I do? And then I was asked to teach the high school Sunday school class. I thought, well, that's working for you. Okay, maybe that's what this is all about.
Mary Kathryn:But that's not. And I knew in my heart that it was more than that. So eventually, and this is an important part of the story, I changed firms and I thought maybe that's what God wanted me to do. And it worked for about a year and then I got that same feeling again, this is not what I want you to do. And I talked to my pastor about it and he said, Well, would you like to come You're not ordained, so you can't be a pastor, but would you like to come be my assistant for a while and see how you like working in the church environment?
Mary Kathryn:And so, I, yes, I would, that would be good. So that's, that's what ended up happening. Know, I had to talk to the search committee and I had to talk to the session and all that, but that's what I did. It was hard work, harder work than I'd ever done before, and yet it didn't feel like work. And so I knew that that was where I was supposed to be.
Mary Kathryn:And then I know I, I asked my husband, I went home thinking, what am I supposed to do with this? And I thought, well, maybe I need to get a degree in music, because I I'm a musical person. Maybe I should be a musical director at a church, a music minister or something. And so I'm thinking how that would work. And my husband said, Mary Catherine, you could get a degree in music.
Mary Kathryn:Or if you wanna go to seminary, I would be willing to move. And I said, What makes you think I want to go to seminary? And he said, You've wanted to ever since I've known you. I'd never talked to him about that TJ, but it would scare him to death. And so I never talked to him about that.
Mary Kathryn:Shame on me, I should have, but he knew anyway. And he later told me, I don't know where those words came from. When he said them, I don't know where those words came from. And I said, Well, I know, that's the Holy Spirit. And that's the affirmation that I needed.
Mary Kathryn:That was my affirmation. So we put our house on the market, big house. We gave away much of our stuff and put some stuff in storage and took a horse trailer worth of stuff. It was literally a horse trailer. The church member loaned us and moved our stuff to Memphis.
Mary Kathryn:I went to MTS. We moved our stuff up there and moved into one of the duplexes on Roberta Drive, which was wonderful because it was like so close to the seminary.
T.J.:You had no commute.
Mary Kathryn:No commute at all. The duplex didn't have a fence. I had three poodles. And so we had we made a makeshift fence with deer net, you know, and metal stakes for the for the dogs. And it was drafty and I kept telling myself, it's only three years.
Mary Kathryn:But it was that time we both discussed this, that time in Memphis, the duplex, when I was going to seminary was an oasis in our lives, because we were really leaning on God. That was probably more than we ever had. It was a very special, special time. Anyway, I I I was 50 when I started seminary.
T.J.:So this little girl several years ago had dreams, and then we fast forward few years. Mhmm. And she finds herself moving across a couple states with a horse trailer in tow
Mary Kathryn:Yeah.
T.J.:From ministry that she'd been running from for quite some time. So here you are now in 2021 and looking back on different signals that god has given you through people and through dreams and through opportunities and discontent. Those are my words, not yours, but discontent.
Mary Kathryn:Must it is true.
T.J.:Oh. Yes. All along, how has God given you purpose in life? Because you've had these other opportunities vocationally, career wise that you could have just stuck with. And instead, you find yourself giving giving over to ministry, giving away all your possessions, and relocating to a city you hadn't been in in a long time.
T.J.:Mhmm. And you call it an oasis.
Mary Kathryn:Yeah. And most most people are like Memphis. You know, I really believe I was very sheltered as a child. And I really believe that if I had been a pastor in my 20s, I would not have been a good one. And I believe that the life experiences that I got being in the financial world, especially were invaluable.
Mary Kathryn:I learned so much about greed and fear. Those are the emotions that mostly come up around money, it seems. And I really learned how people, real people in the world feel about money. And I look at money as a tool. And since I've spent so many years as a layperson, I I can empathize.
Mary Kathryn:Let's just say that I can empathize. And yet I feel like I'm in a position to help people see that that's not the most important thing in the world. So life experiences galore in those years.
T.J.:That's interesting because those are very primal, very human emotions.
Mary Kathryn:Yes.
T.J.:Greed is an action, I guess, more than. But in a let's just say it's emotion. So, there's a very primal, very human emotions and so, you you see those as ways of being able to connect, administer to people knowing that there are other alternatives in being absorbed by these emotions.
Mary Kathryn:Yes. And I'm prompted to say to tell this story. Early on in my ministry as an associate pastor in Marshall, people started saying, Well, when are you going to go get your own church? Or I don't want you to leave. And I know you're probably gonna have to go get your own church.
Mary Kathryn:And I'm like, no, I've already been through that corporate ladder. I don't feel the need to do that. I'm happy here. I wanted to stay there. But realistically, after a couple of years, was ready to go somewhere else, but I didn't want to.
Mary Kathryn:So I stayed there for eight years and things were going well. We were doing new ministries. It was a great opportunity for me to learn all sorts of things about church, how churches work and all that. And I'm in summer camp and I get the word that I'm the ministry leader. I'm the worship leader at summer camp when I get the word that our session had decided to terminate the position of associate pastor for financial reasons.
Mary Kathryn:So here I am in the middle of They generously agreed on offer to pay me for two months. So I didn't feel an immediate need, but I actually never was afraid, which is kind of funny. I wasn't afraid. And I spent those two months praying. I said, this is going to be my sabbatical.
Mary Kathryn:I am going to get up, go on my front porch in the morning and pray. And every morning I prayed, God, please make it clear. I wanna go wherever you want to go. I want to go wherever you want me to go, but please make it clear. And I knew of some churches that needed pastors.
Mary Kathryn:And so I started putting out some feelers and little weird things started happening that delayed everything. And I had said, I don't want to go to Jefferson because it's too close to Marshall. I said the word. Don't say things like that. And it's like God was lifting up this Jefferson church to me saying, this is what I want you to do.
Mary Kathryn:I visited. I had I knew this church very well because I helped them when they needed help. I worked with them. I preached at Jefferson from time to time. There was a hunger for the word at Jefferson that I had not sensed before.
Mary Kathryn:And that's very compelling to a pastor. Anyway, they got me. And it has been the smallest church I've ever been a part of ever in the smallest town that I've ever lived in, 2100. And wonderful. And I've prayed, God, please show me what you would like this congregation to do for you.
Mary Kathryn:And I didn't want to have any preconceived notions. Here, we'll do this for you. I think that that's how we're tempted to do that a lot. And and please bless it. You know?
T.J.:You and you've been at Jefferson for almost two years. Is that right?
Mary Kathryn:It's about a year and a half since I Year
T.J.:and a half.
Mary Kathryn:Became. Mhmm.
T.J.:So so six months in, as you're getting to know the congregation, they're getting to know you better. You've already acquainted. Then we have the pandemic.
Mary Kathryn:Yes.
T.J.:From COVID nineteen.
Mary Kathryn:Yes.
T.J.:So how has your relationship with the congregation that you serve and also your relationship with god, how how's it taken shape in the last year, the last year and a half? How would you describe that?
Mary Kathryn:Not a good question. As we started, we started getting better attendance. We got new members and things were seemed to be going really well in terms of how we consider things going really well. And then all of a sudden we're cut off from each other. And I did not have the ability to do Facebook face whatever live or I don't know how.
Mary Kathryn:And so we just have, and I'm sure it's not hard, but we were six weeks without meeting. I continued to write my sermons and I posted them on email. And I would actually give an order of worship with prayers and things, you know, so that whoever wanted to read through and pretend you're at worship, and then here's the sermon. We did that for six weeks. And then we decided to meet again May third of twenty twenty, which was really early.
Mary Kathryn:And it was very simple. I'll call it simple worship. We didn't sing. I asked the organist, pianist to play whatever the hymn was, and everybody open your hymn and read the words. Don't sing them.
Mary Kathryn:We didn't pass the plaid, and we did not greet each other and pass the piece. And so it was very simple. And two months later, we started singing, wearing masks. But this is what's been really interesting. Although our attendance is about half of what it was before COVID, people didn't want me to stop sending the sermon.
Mary Kathryn:So I'm still sending my manuscript, which forces me to write the manuscript, but I'm prepared. So every week they get a manuscript, and if they wanna read it, let's say they're hard of hearing, they can read it Sunday morning and then go to worship and they know what I've said. So
T.J.:Oh, yeah.
Mary Kathryn:I do change things. I don't just read everything, but for the most part, they know what the sermon is about. And so that's a good thing. But God has sent people to us despite the pandemic. We have had people just come in from neighboring towns.
Mary Kathryn:I've had three people join the church since October. Who would have thought? Who would have thought that? And also, you know, I'd said that I had asked God to please let let us know how you would like us to spread the word of Jesus in our community. Well, I was approached by somebody from Celebrate Recovery.
Mary Kathryn:It's a Christian twelve step program similar to Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous, but it covers all sorts of issues and it is Christ based. They were looking for a church in town where they could meet. They had been in a church that was kind of out in the boonies. So like, we're not, but we are in the county seat, it's in the middle of the county. And so we have been meeting since August at our church and I wanted to support them.
Mary Kathryn:So I've been going to the meetings and they really appreciate that. But the beautiful thing is that I'm learning, it's been feeding me also, and this could be a way that God connects people in the community through us to Christ. And that is a very exciting prospect. We also have a beautiful Our building was built in 1874 and it's been renovated more than once, but it is currently absolutely gorgeous. And I like that the building's prepared, Anybody can come in and experience our facility, but we also have a very nice backyard.
Mary Kathryn:And so we're going to have a backyard sanctuary.
T.J.:Okay.
Mary Kathryn:So it'll be a place outdoors where we can have children's puppet shows, parties, weddings, whatever outside, and people can see it happening in the community. And perhaps that'll be another way to draw people to God through us. We'll see.
T.J.:That that sounds like a a good idea and and some of the places where you can expose people where god is working in the world today. I wanted to ask you, in terms of the church, what ideas and hopes do you have moving into this, you know, the front end of this new decade?
Mary Kathryn:I really believe that this is a good opportunity for us to hit the reset button. What is it that worship looks like? My hope is that worship can be more exciting. You know, that this is a time when we can not worry about what people think about whether our hands are up or not, whether we're smiling with joy or whether we're crying, it is a time to be with Christ. I want people to be able to feel like they can be themselves in worship.
Mary Kathryn:Sure that there are many congregations where that is possible. I have a feeling though that the majority of congregations don't feel like that. I'm not going to say it's anybody's fault. Perhaps it's that nobody's thought about that or are focused on the need to have a place where we can be who God made us to be. And we're all welcome to come as we are and be God's people broken, joyful.
Mary Kathryn:Everything that we are is God's people. One thing that I really, really hope, especially as you said earlier, we have so much unrest in our political world, in our world. This is probably impossible. But I was able to do it, so I think everybody else can too. We need to stop being so defensive about our own understandings of things, our own beliefs, and listen to other people, listen to other voices.
Mary Kathryn:Don't think that I can change your opinion about anything. But if I listen to you, I might understand you better and know that your life experiences have molded you like you are. And when we listen to other people and honor them and respect them and don't put them down because they're not like we are, That is a very healthy way to be. Like I told my session, we're not all alike. We're not all going to agree in here, but I pray that you will be able to speak your own mind, say what you really think, and that we'll all listen.
Mary Kathryn:We'll vote, we'll go on and we'll continue to love each other, whether we agree or not. And that's what I hope for for larger groups.
T.J.:Mayor Catherine, it's a weird time that the measuring stick for my neighbor or our neighbors is is whether the well, does she or he agree with me or think like me? I don't I don't remember being raised that way. But that's where kind of the world is at this moment. So I like your ideas. I like your dreams.
T.J.:Sounds like you've been enacting them at least locally where you're serving at.
Mary Kathryn:I feel like we probably can't do enough. And yet, I don't wanna overwhelm people with, We've started, actually started a couple of things that I'm grateful for. And that one of them is a prayer shawl ministry, which I've done before. So I've got somebody who's very excited about leading that. And so we've started knitting and crocheting prayer shawls, the way to do something for other people.
Mary Kathryn:And then we've got an artist in our congregation who is teaching a class once a month called Art and Scripture. So he takes Scripture and he reads it and he shows examples of how artists throughout time have depicted that particular story. And then we do something like, we draw our hand, we might draw a chalice and a pattern for communion. Might, We drew a horse and a dog. These are things that I would never have done, but it's really calming.
Mary Kathryn:And it's a good time just to be with other people doing something. And again, we're meeting in person, which many people in our world are not doing right now, but we're spreading apart. And so far, nobody's gotten sick.
T.J.:I wanted to ask you, Mary Katherine, and think carefully about this question. I I well, I know that you will. What is it about the Christian faith that just keeps you coming back? So if you were to share with somebody who's like, look. I I don't get it.
T.J.:I don't understand. You're you're not only are you a Christian, but you're a minister. How would you describe that to another individual?
Mary Kathryn:II always tell my people I want others to look at us and say, I want what you have. But what is that? And is it the light of Christ in us that's so compelling? But I go back to seminary and Doctor. Mitzi Minor in our New Testament class.
Mary Kathryn:And I've used this example so many times. In the world when Jesus lived, there was like a triangle and at the top of the triangle were the people with all the power. And at the bottom of the triangle were the poor people, the sick people, the children, the women, and the oppressed. And what Jesus did was turn the triangle upside down. Jesus wants the people at the bottom of world's triangle to know how much they are loved and appreciated by Him, by God.
Mary Kathryn:And that the way of the world is not the way of God. And to me, that's very exciting. It may not be exciting to other people, I don't But to me, that is so hopeful. That gives us hope when people in the world maybe aren't speaking to us nicely or are not giving us opportunities. That's not what's important.
Mary Kathryn:What's important is what Jesus thinks of us. And what we are able to do when we know that we are loved and valued as human beings. It's phenomenal. You know, when you know that you're loved, you can be a different person. You know?
T.J.:Yeah. You're transformed and being transformed. Yeah.
Mary Kathryn:Yes.
T.J.:Mary Catherine, thank you for your time. I have how can we continue to follow you on your faith journey?
Mary Kathryn:I I knew you were gonna ask that, and I I want to have a blog, but I don't have one yet. But I do have a Facebook. I'm on Facebook. So it's Mary Katherine, K A T H R Y N. My maiden name, Agnor, A G N O R, Kirkpatrick.
Mary Kathryn:When you get Mary Katherine Agnor Kirkpatrick, there are none others. I have an email address that anybody can reach me on. That's mkKirkpatrick@Gmail.com.
T.J.:Well, I like your idea about maybe starting a blog. In a way, you've already done that. You've been preparing weekly manuscripts. Yes. Weekly sermons.
T.J.:You put them out there. Share them beyond.
Mary Kathryn:You know, that was very scary at first. That was really scary. And then when I found out that people were forwarding my sermons to other people, I'm like, no. Okay. Yeah.
Mary Kathryn:So, yes, sharing, I mean, even this even this or my true thoughts and ideas are going out to people I don't know is
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Kinda raw and vulnerable. But at the same time, there's there's a rich message and that your journey, your faith journey is unique and yours alone and and so is mine and so are has been the other guest prior to you and and those to come. And they're worth telling.
T.J.:They're worth sharing.
Mary Kathryn:Yeah.
T.J.:And for inspiration, for guidance, and and that's how I I see this And so I think it's important.
Mary Kathryn:Yeah. And I pray that God will continue to use you through other people's stories. Well, thank you. And yours and and your your easy way with people is Well, thank you. It's great.
T.J.:And when we get off here, I want you to Facebook my wife and tell her that what an easy person I am to get along with. She will have a different tale to
Mary Kathryn:tell my to my husband.
T.J.:Oh. Well, thank you for being on this podcast. This has been a long time coming. We've been preparing and scheduling, and things had to change. And I am glad we're finally able to connect.
Mary Kathryn:Thank you for your persistence. I appreciate that.
T.J.:And thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with us on our next journey down Cumberland Road.
